The 'Palestine Paper' that got away...

Robin Davies

Well, it'll be interesting to see what Derek Blades has to say.

Augustus

The plain fact is that the conflict which arose throughout those years centred upon a basic inequality in as much as
while many Arab nations already existed, and the Arab world extended from the Atlantic coast
of Morocco to the waters of the Persian Gulf (and the Muslim world far beyond that), the Jews
had no existing country in which they were sovereign, or in a majority. There was, for example, no Jewish sovereign state, however small, to which the Jews of Germany could go as of right and settle in their own land. The Zionist cause of Jewish nationalism of the previous 30 years had not yet secured such a safe and sovereign haven. For the Jews the land was everything and there was nothing else, whereas for the Arabs Palestine was only a small portion of the large and numerous Arab territories.

steve

Sorry, but didn't you earlier suggest that these papers were forgeries?

david singer

Jews owning property in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem prior to being tossed out of these areas by Jordan between 1948-1967 is a fact that needs to be constantly repeated. The Jews right to return to these areas after 1967 to reconstitute the Jewish National Home were preserved and safeguarded by article 6 of the Mandate for Palestine and article 80 of the UN Charter.

BUTSeriously

The charade must stop. The Balfour must be restored- it remains the worst post-W.W.II crime, we need a 2-state in Egypt - one for the Copts, Hezbo removed and the false, genocidal aspired term of Pretend Pals be ceased - the Arabs in Palestine are the world's least affected alledged refugees on the planet, with more options than any other peoples on the planet. Jordan is a ficticious, illegal settlement. Serial 2-states in the same small land = Genocide for Jews. At least the Nazis were honest about it. Melanie is a light shining in the darkness.

BUTSeriously

The worst violation of the UN in its entire history is the multi-state Arab attacks on the UN re-restablished state of Israel: why no UN Resolution on this attack, perpetrated with a declared goal of genocide - even after the attacking states VOTED in the UN Motion? Guess why the attacks continue!

Margaret

Are you trying to say that current settlements are equivalent to Palestinians living on land that Jewish people owned but fled in 1948? I am not sure I see the connection, especially as the events of 1948 created hundreds of thousands of Palestinian refugees who were unable to return to land they owned deeds for.

Also, the belief that "the Arabs" already had a lot of land while Jewish people had none is just ignorant and racist assumption that all Arabs are the same and interchangeable and therefore the Arabs living in Palestine are the same as the Arabs living in Jordan and Egypt and Iraq etc.

The Europeans already had a lot of land - all of Europe - why couldn't they give the Jewish people land for their state? After all it was Europeans who perpetrated the holocaust, not Arabs.

Im sure when I make this argument about Europeans your mind will immediately recoil against it, because you are able to realize that all Europeans are not the same, the Germans are different than the British who are different from the Polish, etc. Such is true of Arabs, you just don't care to understand enough about their history or culture to automatically differentiate them in your mind.

DeeJay

Maybe the tragedy for Israel is that, although it is geographically in the middle of the Middle East, for many of those who have returned to Israel from the diaspora since 1940's; mentally, philosophically, culturally and politically, they are still somewhere else, probally old Europe or America.

Joshua

"Im sure when I make this argument about Europeans your mind will immediately recoil against it, because you are able to realize that all Europeans are not the same,"

In terms of the Holocaust, they were all more or less exactly the same.

Dr Michael Ward

This never ending debate about who said what to whom when and who is most at fault and what terms we should use to describe people and patches of land and various lines on those patches of land is simply absurd!

What should happen NOW Melanie? One state, two states, or some other solution? What should that solution look like (in broad terms)?

Since you write about this subject on an almost daily basis, surely you can find a little bit of space to tell us what YOUR position is.

Perhaps then a genuinely fruitful debate could begin.

david singer

To Margaret

There are very few Arabs who fled what is now Israel in 1948 who still own unclaimed property. Israel has a Custodian for Property of Absentee Owners enabling anyone to substantiate his claim.
The Jews were kicked out of Gaza,the West Bank and East Jerusalem in 1948 and would still not have returned there today had the Arabs not prosecuted the Six Day War.
Germans,Brits and Poles speak different languages, have different cultures and separate historical experiences. The Palestinians define themselves as an integral part of the Arab nation. The Arabs got 99.999% of the land captured from the Ottoman Empire. The Jews were awarded 0.0001% - too much apparently for the Arabs to accept as they still refuse to recognize the Jewish State 63 years after its birth

BUTSeriously

" the Jews had no existing country"

Actually, they did - Israel was the name of a soveriegn Jewish state 3000 years ago, and the statutory period does not apply for two legal reasons:

1. No state was ever recognised in Palestine for all that period.

2. The staturory period does not apply when enforcement, murder and barring the Jews' return was prevalent.

It is the Arab states installed by Briton which never existed before 120 years! Briton disregarded a host of peoples which predate both Islam and the Arab race: the Copts, the Kurds, the Drews and the Jews.

Its time for a 2-state in Egypt - one for the original, native Copts.

Paul

What exactly is the complaint here - that Palestinians are willing to restore pre-1948 Jewish property as part of a settlement? Those evil treacherous Muslims!

Would Israel care to offer the same to Palestinians?

No-one has ever said there were no Jewish settlements in the west Bank before 1948, just that there where nowhere near the total number there are now, which are built on land captured in war which is illegal under international law.

Paul

Augustus "For the Jews the land was everything and there was nothing else, whereas for the Arabs Palestine was only a small portion of the large and numerous Arab territories."

Well your house is only a small portion of the territory of whatever country you live in. If I am homeless is it ok for me to come and take it off you at gunpoint? You can move move somewhere else in your country can't you?

Or do I have to be able to say that my great-great-great-great-great x 50 grandfather once lived there to make it ok?

Tilly

Dr Michael Ward

I'm beginning to wonder whether the entire Middle East mess isn't summed up by the level of debate in these blogs.

Almost all the energies of contributors are devoted to chewing over wrongdoings and betrayals, point-scoring, nit-picking at legal niceties, name-calling, demands for retaliation, and prophesies of doom.

Anything vaguely resembling a proposal of a solution is pounced upon in an entirely reactive (and negative) way rather than being countered by pro-actively (positive) alternative suggestions.

This, no doubt, is exactly the spirit in which "negotiations" are conducted over the future of Israel and its neighbours.

There is no real interest in peace - or even the realistic prospect of a win - only in the stimulation of fighting.

WetherspoonThree

Tilly @ 5.16pm

I read some of the Old Testament some years back during a particularly wet weekend and these disputes have hardly changed in 3000 years.

Augustus

Paul - Your remarks are fatuous
and are made even more silly when one considers the extent of the absentee Arab landlords, not to even mention the neglect
and poor quality of the land. As
one would expect, the Jews improved conditions immensely,
not just for themselves, but for
Arabs they employed too. Do get over your hatred of these 'voortrekkers' of Palestine Jewry and their aspirations for statehood.

Alex Bensky

The twentieth century is replete with people forced out of their land, Margaret...from the Ionian Greeks and Salonikan Turks and a bunch of people in the former Austro-Hungarian Empire after World War I to millions upon millions after World War II and the Indian partition.

But no one, absolutely no one, is worried about the land lost by Karelian Finns, eastern Poles, Sudeten Germans, so on, and on, and on. For that matter, the world doesn't seem to be all that exercised about the land and property of Jews forced out of Arab lands after 1948, or the Jews of places like the Etzion Bloc or Hebron who were forced out of their land.

Everyone else simply assumed that unpleasant as it may be, you take in your people, the other side takes in theirs, and that's how you try to figure out some sort of workable peace.

Only the Palestinian Arabs, of all the peoples of the world, have some sort of "inalienable right of return." If I were a cynic I'd say it's because their opponents are Jews, but I'm sure it's something else.

BUTSeriously

"mentally, philosophically, culturally and politically, they are still somewhere else, probally old Europe or America."

Europe was no holiday for Jews - they were forced into that continent. Then they were barred from returning at the helm of the Holocaust:

"We will never support the return of the Jews to their homeland because they rejected Jesus" - Pope not-so Pius.

Why invent new ways to blame the victims here?

BUTSeriously

Why do Christians rage about the climate and chase whaling ships, but remain silent of the Balfour's corruption? Why do Christians acount serial 2-states in the same land as a 2-state?

The pollution is not with the climate.

david singer

To Dr Michael Ward and Tilly

What should happen now?

I believe that direct negotiations between Israel and Jordan be undertaken to return the status quo of the West Bank and East Jerusalem to that which existed at 5 June 1967 - as far as is now possible given the lapse of 44 years and the events that have since occurred - and that sovereignty of the West Bank be allocated between Israel and Jordan accordingly.

Jordan occupied the West Bank and East Jerusalem between 1948-1967 and the world did not fall in.

The attempt to create a new Arab state between Israel and Jordan - where none ever existed in recorded history - has failed after 17 years of abysmal efforts to achieve that solution.

Jordan will not readily agree to such negotiations. There will need to be international pressure to bring Jordan to the negotiating table.

The Hashemite regime has done more for the Palestinian Arabs than any other Arab politician or Arab state having secured 78% of Mandated Palestine as an exclusively Arab state.

Offering it the opportunity of acquiring another 3-4% should not be missed.

Two peoples - the Jews and the Arabs - need two States not three in former Palestine.

Shimon

Well known facts in our (M. East) region but not for you dear Brits, which are constantly lookong for a just solution only for the Palestinians. What about some justice for us?
Best Regards to all.

Danny Black

Margaret, given most of the land in the mandate was public land and most of the rest was owned by a few wealthy families, it is pretty unlikely that hundreds of thousands of Palestianians who fled a war their side started have "deeds" to "their" land.

I am sure you are aware that the Palestinian leadership was neck-deep in the Holocaust - having spent most of the war in Berlin as guests of Hitler. I am sure you are also aware that the Palestinian leadership was the reason emigration to the Mandate was stopped at the Jews direst hour of need. So hard to see how you manage to whitewash their involvement. Also Europeans didn't "give" Israel anything. In fact the French and British armed and financed the armies Israel fought AGAINST in 1948. Maybe you are confusing them with the USSR?

Danny Black

DeeJay, most of them returned from Arab and African countries. Not sure why those Jews would have European mentalities. The Jews who did have European mentalities were pretty much wiped out in the 40s, in what is called the Holocaust, you might have heard of it.

Paul

Augustus "extent of the absentee Arab landlords, not to even mention the neglect
and poor quality of the land. As
one would expect, the Jews improved conditions immensely"

And exactly how does that justify stealing their land 1948 onwards (I have never been referring to immigrants who came before then to buy land and farm it)?

Do I have the right to come in at gunpoint anf throw you out of your house just because I would keep it tidier than you?

Paul

Alex Bensky "Only the Palestinian Arabs, of all the peoples of the world, have some sort of "inalienable right of return.""

No there is another people. The Jews themselves of course feel they have the right to return 2000 years after their expulsion and take the land belonging to the people living their now

"It is the duty of Israeli leaders to explain to public opinion, clearly and courageously, a certain number of facts that are forgotten with time. The first of these is that there is no Zionism, colonialization, or Jewish State without the eviction of the Arabs and the expropriation of their lands." - Ariel Sharon

BUTSeriously

"Do I have the right to come in at gunpoint anf throw you out of your house just because I would keep it tidier than you?"

Israel was legally established via the UN, the wording included the 'UNIQUE HISTORICAL RIGHTS' of the Jews; if this is not accounted as sovereign state holder the UN and all laws become meaningless. No such status was given to anyone else. If one invents ways to negate Israel's rights - how about the 22 Islamic states which were not established via the UN, which never existed before and its disregarding of a host of non-muslims in Arabia - like the Copts, Kurds and over a million Jews living there for centuries? Jews have never occupied another peoples' land in all their 4000 year history, nor robbed the historical names of other peoples or dumped mosques in the known holy sites of other peoples. Israel is facing genocidal demands which are based on 100% known false notions. The triple-hank job for the Pretend Pals is a sham - its only the Jewish problem raising its head again.

wonderer

@ Paul February 12th, 2011 11:51am
You attribute a bellicose statement to Sharon. In a number of places on the web, including sites hostile to Israel, the same statement appears as a quotation from an article written in 1972 by Yoram bar Porath in Yediot Ahronot. Are you then saying that Sharon subsequently quoted these words with approval? If not, what is your justification for linking them with him?

Augustus

Paul - Do you have the right to
come into my house at gunpoint and turn me out? Probably not. But if you had been a member of a family subjected to the most horrible cold scientific persecution, reduced from affluence to ruin, and then, even in that position, denied the opportunity of earning your daily bread, your blood and race declared defiling and accursed, with every form of concentrated human wickedness cast upon you by vile tyranny,
I think I might at least perceive your hour of need.

Miranda Rose Smith

Or is it one law for everyone but another altogether for the Jews?

Dear Ms. Phillips: You only just now figured that out?

Herzen

Augustus
February 12th, 2011 4:32pm
"Paul - Do you have the right to
come into my house at gunpoint and turn me out? Probably not."

And with that you concede the point.

I suspect you will now demonstrate that you think discretion the better part of valour, and absent yourself, again.

Augustus

Herzen - Paul had stated, and has often done so, that the Zionists had stolen Arabs' lands. But in my opinion, in the years between Balfour and Israel's founding, the Arabs had had a very fair deal throughout the ME from those who were in a position to provide it: The British.

Herzen

Augustus
February 13th, 2011 2:42pm
Your notion that the Arabs across the Middle East got a fair deal from the British who double-crossed them is interesting. However, we are not talking about "the Arabs". We are talking specifically about the inhabitants of the territory the British called Palestine. It is a stretch to say that ethnic cleansing or "transfer" is less problematic than stealing. (The Zionists were not always comfortable describing their strategy, but many were comfortable with the term "transfer".)

AA

RESEARCH / DOCUMENTS: So-called “Palestinians” - The Truth about “Palestinian” Arabs, A.K.A. Arab immigrants’ children, grandchildren & the vastly vacant desolate land prior to the rise of Jewish return
http://israelpalestine101.blogspot.com/2011/01/truth-about-palestinian-arabs-aka-arab.html

kate b

Here's one answer that's trying to be covered over by the UN:

See Israel Matzav and the incredible disappearing website.

general

It's all coming down so I really don't care. "They live" I love the ending.

Charles

Tilly; Michael Ward.

I suspect quite a few people would be interested to know what MP's solution would be, particularly in view of the fact that she has studied and written about the issue and its history at some considerable length.

J D Bryan

Paul - I assume you mean the 1967 war was illegal. I am confused. Yes, this war was illegal. However it was Arab’s attack on Israel that was illegal (as before, in 1948 and after, in 1973).

As self defence is not illegal under International law. This seems to imply the Israel counter attack was illegal conditional on how the event panned out, by dint of success. Thus enabled the recapture of land earlier dispossessed through the illegal war of 1948.

Perhaps Israel should not have fought back against the invading Arab armies thus would not now be “illegal occupiers”.

Wetherspoon Three - Surely, there were no Arabs or Muslims in 3000 b.c. in this region or anywhere. As indeed, there were no British, French, Romans or Christians, etc. However, there were Jews. I make this, seemingly, banal point because presently many Muslims claim this land is historically Islamic and endorsed by so many in the west. Such a measure, legal residence based on who is truly aboriginal, would mean the Christians, let alone the Jews, have a better claim to the holy land than the Muslims.

Shimon - I would argue there are many in the west who understand and support the Israeli case. The problem is The Left who are more vocal than any friends of Israel. Propagates a narrative that holds at best, Israel should be admonished “that you should know better”, or given “friendly” advice, “You are not helping yourself!”, while at worst accused of being no better than the Nazis, “substantiated” through lies. A narrative that clouds out intellectual debate thus is anti-Israeli.

Tragically, it is getting worse. The latter is rapidly displacing the former. We are seeing anti-Israel propaganda morph into disguised and even undisguised anti-Semitism of the like fanatical Nazi’s would be proud.

This is no hyperbole.

I urge Israeli’s friends to speak up.