The oldest obsession

roger

I have recently returned from a visit to Israel and I was shocked by the anti-Israel sentiments I encountred from some Israelis themselves. Comments like 'Israel is a racist society', 'Israel has stolen Arab land and occupying it', 'Israel abuses and discriminates against its Arab and Bedouin citizens','Iran and the Muslim world aren't the real threat to the world, The US is', 'Israel is dominated by a money spinning military-industrial complex'. And so on. There seems to be a large left-wing, anti-capitalist, anti-American,anti-military, indeed anti-Israel Arab appeasing faction there. I found it just as hard to reason with them as it is with the usual Israel bashing bigots in Europe. I assume these are the liberal left Haaretz reading, Peace Now crowd.

David

It's Michael Morpurgo not Richard

EDDIE

Most certainly in reading the Jewish Community’s main newspaper the Jewish Chronicle it is clear that a significant proportion of their readers have had their minds tainted by the relentless anti Israel propaganda of the Media especially the BBC. Not enough has been done to educate people in the history of this region before the First World War and onwards. There are other who have lived in this country for generations and feel absolutely no involvement or connection with Israel. The Jewish Chronicle is keen to put all; sides of the arguments on its pages and invites some of Israel’s most dangerous enemies to have their say. The excuse often given is that of ‘freedom of speech. However Israel’s enemies do not indulge themselves in that way.

Peter Harris

You're absolutely right - because of the memory of Holocaust, I never thought I'd see it my own lifetime. But here it is, clear as day.

Merlyn

Absolutely agree Melanie. I have been watching 'the Promise' with a feeling of utter helplessnes as I think about my intelligensia friends gathering amunition for their next bombardment Of Israel and the Jews...and me.
So I am reading up on British history with radical Islam as we see the government cosying up Islamists iEngage.

Gabez

Utterly irrelevant to the concerns of the Arab masses? Isn't the problem that if the Arab masses oust their pragmatic rulers then they would install an Islamist government that would represent their widespread anti-Jewish views as numerous opinion polls have shown?

moise pippic

Last night on the BBC World Service midnight news, a BBC reporter in the West Bank reflecting on the unrest in the Arab World stated that due to the Israeli occupation (area unspecified), Palestinian Arabs could not travel between the West Bank and Gaza.That this had not been possible since 1948 when the West Bank came under Jordanian control and Gaza was occupied by Egypt with the Israeli Negev in between was clearly unknown to this BBC journalist. But then who cares about the facts as long as he was heard to be slagging Israel off.

Oflife

@Roger: My thoughts on all this are that there probably is an industrial military motive behind much of what goes on in the world, but that Israel is used as a target for the left. The fact that the society is open enough to allow the views you highlight to exist, proves that the country deserves to be defended and allowed to blossom. At least the people have free will!

Helen

Agreed, Mel. I saw The Richard Dimbleby Lecture only by chance. I sat there stunned when at the start the US was connivingly compared with Somalia for not signing up to some fatuous UN piece of scribble and thought: "Where is this man going with this?"

I should have guessed, shouldn't I?

Not only is it this media social set's cause de jour, Jonanthan Dimbleby, who introduced Michael Morpurgo, has written a book all about a subject he has a very biased view on. Its name? The Palestinians!

Also, small typo, Mel. You've had a Freudian slip with Michael Morpurgo and Richard Dimbleby and written 'Richard Morpurgo'.

Oflife

The British (currently 'powered' by the BBC & assisted by other media, such as Ch.4's The Promise) have a history of dividing to conquer, so chances are, they are now dividing the Jews prior to Britain's next nefarious endeavour. If these lefties had spent the last few decades venting their wrath on countries like Libya instead of Israel, people would not be dying in the streets of Libya today.

VE Bott

Of course, the death toll in Palestine pales into insignificance compared to what happened in Iraq, and the fact that Jews and Israelis agonise over Palestinian casualties far more than Brits and Americans do over how many Iraqi kids died is very much to their credit and supports Melanie's main theme.

However, for a nation that sets out to be a light unto the gentiles, the fact so many more Palestinian than Jewish pre-teens have been shot is worrying.

Personally, I approve of the fact that there is more and more land in Jewish hands rather than the other way round, but others may question that too.

When it comes to Israel-Palestine, facts will only get you so far. Ultimately, it's about what side you're on.

just Louise

Wonderful post as always, Melanie.
I can't help wondering what these children are taught at school about Israeli/"Palestine" history, for clearly it is not positive enough to be an antidote to pernicious media propaganda and the lie that Israel was "born in sin" and that the "Palestinians" are the indigenous inhabitants.
The anti-Israel propaganda emanating from some Jewish Studies academics here and overseas is also incredible. Even those who describe themselves as Zionists are pushing the Beinart/J Street line as if there is no other.

aelle

It hardly seems to be symptomatic of a western civilisation in its " death-throes " for there to be continuing concern over a protracted conflict between political and religious groups in the Eastern Mediterranean which itself threatens the future of western civilisation.

As in any dispute over territory and religion conducted over a century or more there are examples of brutality, ignorance, prejudice and hostility on the part of all involved, including not only Arab and Jew, but also the English , under whose frequently misguided supervision the blood-stained drama was played out.
For concerned British opinion to seek a solution that will bring lasting peace to the Middle East and Europe is a perfectly mature and responsible position, and not one that will be assisted by refusing to contemplate unpalatable truths, and certainly not by ignoring one of the most intractable and potentially perilous international issues.
What definitively cannot help the situation is the " my country - or my religion - right or wrong " attitude, from whichever side it comes.
As Ms Phillips observes " Just as with every other closed thought system, those in its grip are totally incapable of insight even into the most obvious signs that they have lost sight of reality. "
Physician, heal thyself.....

Terry H

I read "The Kites Are Flying", the book to which Morpurgo referred in his Dimbleby lecture, and it struck me then as it did on listening to him that in spite of his attempt to show himself as even-handed he has swallowed the Palestinian line completely. We are presented with lovingly constructed word portraits of the Palestinian characters while the Israelis are shown as shadowy figures who fire randomly at children. The younger ones are allowed to fly their kites over the wall, but of course it is only in response to the Palestinian boy's initiative. As with all reporting on trouble between protagonists the reporter has great difficulty in refraining from picking a side, and Morpurgo fails signally.

Derek Pasquill

It is worth perhaps occasionally rubbing the collective British intelligentsia's nose in the following magisterial statement by Levinas - if only to remind it that the Judaism will be around long after the Brits and their claims to special status (didn't they have a sense of humour for a brief time? 1066 to 1974?) are long forgotten:

Open quote: "At the dawning of the new world, Judaism has the consciousness to possess, through its permanence, a function in the general economy of Being. No one can replace it. Someone has to exist in the world who is as old as the world. For Judaism, the great migrations of the people, the migration among people and the upheavals of history have never presented a deadly threat. It always found what remained to it. It has a painful experience of living on; its performance accustomed it to judging history and refusing to accept the verdict of a History that proclaimed itself judge. Perhaps Jewish thought in general consists today in holding on more firmly than ever to this permanence and this eternity. Judaism has traversed history without taking up history’s causes. It has the power to judge, alone against all, the victory of visible and organized forces – if need be in order to reject them. Its head may be held high or its head may be down, but it is always stiff-necked. This temerity and this patience, which are as long as eternity itself, will perhaps be more necessary to humanity tomorrow or the day after tomorrow than they were yesterday or the day before." Endquote.

Arius

We will pay dearly for this new wave of 1930's Jew hatred.

Stewart

Could it be, just maybe, because Israel has botched the handling of the Palestinians for several decades? A 30something year long public relations disaster.
Strategy, if can be called that, has been neither one thing or the other, totally ineffective.
And the world isn't blind or stupid, we proclaim Israel a democracy but it caters to the rabid Jewish extremists, every bit as unpleasant as the Islamists.
Reap what ye sow.

John Richardson

"The real crime is being committed by all those who are promulgating this, the true evil of our times."

Right.

At the forefront of this promulgation must be the BBC ,right?
After all you explain that the BBC is 'the worlds most dangerous broadcasting organisation'.
Correct?

Yet STILL YOU CHOSE TO FUND THE BBC WITH YOUR OWN MONEY.

....struth...give me strength..

Rob-NY

As an American I find the anti-Israel tone in the UK amazing since many Americans see Israel today in the same position that the UK was in 70 years ago. A supposedly powerful nation bravely standing alone against fascism. The same British people who deride the USA for supporting Israel will then complain that it took the states so long to join the UK in WWII. That was due to Americans in 1940 listening to the same isolationists and Marxists who today want us to abandon Israel. It was wrong then and it is wrong now. The more things change the more they stay the same.

Gareth

Leftist Brits convinced themselves long ago that the only solution to terrorism is to give in to it. There was a similar obsession with Vietnam until the US gave up. Even now, the Leftists are gearing up to support the supremacy of sharia law in Britain. It's hard to say how much anti-semitism is involved.

Andre

I remember when I lived in Israel some orthodox Jews refused to serve in the IDF as they did not recognise the state of Israel and indeed agued for its destruction - they still voted in elections which I thought wrong. When Avi Lieberman recently suggested making an oath of allegiance to the state of Israel a perquisite for voting rights I was in complete agreement.
I am a practicing Catholic. As part of my faith I teach my children that the people of Israel, the Jews, have lived in that land for thousands of years since it was given them by God and claimed by Abraham and Moses. There has been a continuous Jewish presence there despite the various reversals and expulsions. Israel is one of the oldest countries in the world, functioning as a country and a culture long before Britain, the USA, France and Russia were even thought about. Israel traces its legitimacy back centuries before the Arabs came to the middle east, millennia before the religion that inflames them was thought up. When I go to Mass I pray ‘Shema Yisrael’ and I remember before God, his people, my saviour, a Jew, our Lady, a Jew, the first pope, a Jew. I trace my faith through a continuous revelation right back to Abraham’s encounter with the living God. I am not interested in any other so-called revelation that came after Christ. These are historic truths. They will stand long after the countries and cultures that dispute them have faded into sand. I do not let the vapid fashion of our troubled times obfuscate these truths. I believe Israel will prevail.

jimmyW

"They devote infinitely more attention to Israel than to any other country on earth".

Indeed. Except for (since 1968 and in no particular order):

Burma,
East Timor,
Tibet,
South Africa,
Nicaragua,
Colombia,
Bolivia,
Cuba,
Venezuela,
Ireland,
Vietnam,
Kurdistan,
Chile

Not to mention all the campaigns around African debt, fair-trade, The Amazon etc.

There is a somewhat disproportionate amount of coverage of Israel - it's fairly accessible, most people speak reasonably good English (more than in most of the countries listed above), Britain was closely involved with it the colonial past and there are a significant number of people in the UK with an interest in the country (with relatives there for instance). These are the same reasons we have a disproportionate amount of coverage of Pakistan and India (as opposed to, say, Brazil).

Shlomo usa

I share Melanie's sentiments. Friends of Israel must persist in redefining the debate and taking the offensive against Islamic imperialism and its fellow travelers on the left and right. It is a sisyphean labor that must be done. Yes, I've debated brain-washed Jews. We are not only defending Israel; we're defending the West. Liberals need to be reminded that their values are under siege. Lots of people in the Middle East agree with us. They just dare not come out of the woodwork today.

david elder

I'm afraid this sort of naivety, plus mindless anti-Americanism, is not uncommon here (Australia). An otherwise intelligent woman regaled me with the long list of anti-US rhetoric around the world. I tried to point out that if Australia was a US-style superpower the rest of the world would soon be throwing brickbats at us for not doing their contradictory biddings. None of this sank in. Michael Moore is compared by such people to Orwell. God help us.

Yochanan

"how easily the most absurd fictions obtain credit when the public mind is under the influence of prejudice" J. Lingard, History of England, Vol vi, p.714.

charles soper

Thanks, Melanie, Israel's friends need backbone.
'Let them all be confounded and turned back that hate Zion. Let them be as the grass upon the housetops, which withereth afore it groweth up.'
Ps. 129.5-6.

Paul

"It is not just the eye-popping double standard in singling out Israel for attack while ignoring the fact that it is the only democracy in the region."

I'm sorry what has got to do with whether or not Israel was founded by stealing land from the Palestinians?

"It is not just the egregious lies and smears and the comprehensive rewriting of history that has taken place that not only reverses victim and aggressor but blames the victim for being victimised and inspires hatred of Israel and Jews."

Oh sorry, so in 1900 Palestine was 90% Jewish then over the next 50 years Arab muslims turned up saying the land was theirs cos their ancient ancestors used to live there, and expelled most of the Jewish population and placed the rest under military occupation?

Its not anti-semitism its anti one bit of Israeli policy - occupation and settlement of the land occupied in the 1967 war.

Bickers

Melanie, you make any rationale British person rightly ashamed of our so called intelligent class, however these are the same useful idiots who supported unilateral disarmament when history shows it would have been disastrous for the West. There is one question they need to answer: do they want the Arabs to accept that Israel exists as a nation State?

wonderer

>Stewart
February 21st, 2011 7:07pm
".. the rabid Jewish extremists, every bit as unpleasant as the Islamists."

That is so silly. The most cherished wish of Hamas is genocide. Read their Covenant.

C.Gee

VE Bott:

Thank you for the laughs, Violet Elizabeth.

It stands to reason that there would be more Palestinian than Israeli deaths of "pre-teen" whippersnappers, because the Palestinians regard their own children as both soldiers and martyrs for attack purposes and shields for defense purposes.

And of course, you are quite right, it is just a matter of which side you're on. I go with the Outlaws: Israel.

Okey

Paul, in 1967 Israel liberated Judea, Samaria and Gaza from the illegal control which Jordan and Egypt had exercised there following their illegal occupation of those territories in a war where the UN had declared them to be the aggressors.
While they controlled those territories they made not the slightest attempt to establish yet another Arab state or to give their "Palestinian" inhabitants any of the normal human rights, and the "Palestinians" never demanded a state in that period partly because they had never in their history had a state and partly because they considered themselves as Arab as any other Arabs (and still do-read the "Palestinian" National Charter.)
The truth is that in 1947-48 Arab forces ethnically cleansed Jews from territories which international law in 1922 had declared must become part of the future Israel.
These are ,for you, inconvenient truths, but please learn to swallow them. It's easy: just do some honest research. The truth will ease your pain.

St Bruno

Well, Melanie, what do you expect from an upside down Britain?

LucasHyde

Sorry, it is not just in Britain. In Spain, the anti Israel, pro Palestinain feeling is, if anything even stronger and even more stupid. I try my best to give another side to the story but quite frankly, they don't care. Their minds are made up. The latest show of complete ignorance came from a friend of mine who insisted that no Jews had lived in Israel since they were expelled. He also said that there were no Jewish refugees from Muslim countries, saying they left because they wanted to live amongst their own.
I have now gone one notch up and in conversation, when it is called for, I say I am a Zionist, not only an Israel supporter. The shock and horror is as you would expect from a population brought up to believe that the word Zionist is a dirty word.

Joshua

"Reap what ye sow"

I wonder if you had the same thought when the IRA were blowing up British civilians or in the aftermath of the 2005 London bombings. No, I thought not.

Joshua

"However, for a nation that sets out to be a light unto the gentiles, the fact so many more Palestinian than Jewish pre-teens have been shot is worrying."

Are you worried about the fact of all the dead Serbs, Iraqis and Afghans killed by the British Armed Forces even though they have killed NO British civilians?

J D Bryan

I agree with you Melanie. I giggled at your sardonic quip: the media is suddenly aware of the brutal nature of these regimes.

I would further add. This is much due to the undermining of the west whilst beautifying the non-west. The result of the cynical propaganda of the Hard Left over the last half a century. While, the Soft Left who are much greater in number, like honey bees spread pollen spread this poisonous Left-wing ideology where ever they goest - though not all, thus if the caps fits.

The Left-wing cynically conjoin their anti-western propaganda with the western free media which exposes western failings, real or imaged, for all to see and hear, “assisted” by the non-west. As a result, westerners are beginning to lose belief in their own culture. Yet, invariably give the benefit of the doubt to the non-west, whose failures, let alone crimes, go unreported or ignored thus deemed the “good guys”, law abiding as per international law.

In this way, by default the west is seemingly becoming morally equivalent with the non-west, however vile the regimes. The Hard Left ride this false global narrative. In this, the “Left in the looking Glass” world, many in the west thus dispirited identify the “bad guys” in the global order. Namely, Israel and America who stand out by dint of leading the war on terror, war against the enemies of humanity (arguably, Israel has been fighting the war on terror for decades), thus obliged to conduct the horrible acts of war in the full glare of global media. Whilst, by dint of opposing this war or sitting on the side lines any nations, movements of whatever ilk, however evil, are deemed the good guys, “respectful” of international law, not by intent but by default.

Also condemned, are the "lesser bad guys”, Britain, Canada, Australia, Denmark and some other NATO nations as supporters of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan and unequivocal backing of Israel. Yet, now seem to be distancing themselves from the Israeli front of the war on terror, thus limply joining the rest of the “law abiding” world.

Of course, Israel cannot afford to be as “well behaved” as the world community because of the constant threat of destruction. Consequently, is increasingly becoming both isolated and demonised.

What is particularly appalling is that because Israel is a liberal democracy, a civilised nation, thus presents an existential threat to no nation rather fights only in self defence people feel safe to attack in the most nasty way. No regimes however nasty earn such opprobrium. Similarly, when, Bush spoke of the “axis of evil”, was condemned on the grounds he may upset these nasty aggressive regimes - though an admission it was a truth statement was not openly admitted.

It is morally unacceptable and cowardly to blame the victim rather than risk upsetting the bully. We have all seen this in our daily lives, in school , work, etc. Yet essentially, through fear of the non-western world consisting of some appalling regimes many in the west want to join this “well behaved world community” by seemingly "conceding" that Israel is the villain of peace. Israel, how dare you fight for your survival!

Since 1945 people have constantly, rightly, asked how Hitler got to power, managed to get the German people to do his evil work, permit the Holocaust. Without fear of hyperbole I fear the historical stage we have reached today answers this question, though, to those who wish to listen. Through the myth that Left-wing anti-capitalist, socialist, ideology represents human progress the path to fascism is laid. This was the path to Nazi Germany……….

David Lindsay

Reviewing The Promise in last week's Spectator, James Delingpole bemoaned the fact that "Even today, shockingly, there is no memorial in Britain to the servicemen who died" in British Mandated Palestine. Of course he is quite right, as well as being an interesting example of the present turn away from neoconservatism by those more traditional Tories and their equivalents who were previously its fellow-travellers.

We could and should be shamed on this one by a war memorial which probably could not currently be erected in Jerusalem, and certainly could not currently be erected in Nazareth, but probably could be in Bethlehem. A memorial to those killed by Irgun, Lehi and all the rest of them.

Blessed in the sight of the BBC by (among others, of course) the Latin Patriarch and the Anglican Archbishop, both visibly robed as such, and both introduced as such by the reporter for the benefit of the folks back home. Cue a subsequent explanatory piece, complete with interviews with any surviving veterans. Newspaper articles within a three-day radius, you know the drill.

And a member of the Royal Family in attendance, laying a wreath? If not, why not? After all, two of the most prominent are serving officers. The explicit invitation should be included in the announcement from Ramallah that this memorial was to be erected. After all, Ramallah is already sending its Officer Cadets to Sandhurst. Commonwealth membership beckons. As it does for Egypt, which still has a currency called the pound.

Larry in Tel Aviv

Nothing upsets me more than Jewish self-loathing, I expect it from non-Jews, but from our own, it is beyond distressing. Yes it is here in Israel. This is what happens when you don't teach the children well, or at all - the schools are a joke.

One of the reason for the success of the rapid Spanish conquests of Latin America (despite the conquistadors being heavily outnumbered), was civil war and conflict amongst the native Indians, the Aztecs and the Incas especially. Black tribes in West Africa often sold captured peoples from their own conflicts into slavery in the New World. Many black people in South Africa heavily compromised with and collaborated in apartheid.

Unfortunately Jews are no different, if we fall, it will be from within.

Emmet Sweeney

I recall talking to a young English woman who taught English in Libya during the early 1980s. I, with a number of my naive friends, was praising Gadaffi for his support for "liberation" struggles throughout the world. (Yes, I was young and naive. I actually believed the crap the BBC was putting out!). Anyway, this girl exploded, telling us how, during her stay in Libya two female university students had painted a moustache on one of the Dear Leader's ubiquitous posters. They were hanged for their efforts. I couldn't believe my ears. I remember asking her: If such things happen in Libya, why doesn't the media tell us about it? She shrugged her shoulders. These are the savages who have been ruling the entire Near East for decades. The only civilized country in the region is Israel. Yet it's the one demonized. I used to not believe in a personal devil, who turned truth and falsity on its head. Now I'm not so sure. The BBC and their fellow-travellers are classic spokesmen of evil.

Jon_Boy

I grew up in a very white, working class Anglo Saxon area in the UK and experienced both physical and verbal anti Semitic racial bullying as a kid. In fact I had to take up lifting weights at the age of 13 just so I was in a position of strength to defend myself from the physical racial attacks. Looking back I realize that it wasn’t ideologically driven anti Semitism but simply British bullying and my race and the way I looked was simply considered a weak spot, for these English bullies to exploit.

However the long term psychological effects on me were that I have never really considered myself English/British and it also gave me a sub conscious resentment of this country, even though I was born here, as I felt it had somehow rejected me.

As I grew up the first time I came across truly ideologically driven anti Semitism, like the kind you hear and read about during WW2 was from the Bangladeshi community. Then I came across the same ideology and beliefs amongst the Pakistani community of Manchester. Funnily when working in a fast food restaurant in Manchester a non devout Pakistani girl would go on regular 1930s style anti Semitic tirades to me, not knowing I was Jewish as I had lost the ‘Jewfro’ by this time, about a couple of Jewish colleagues of ours working out the front.

After many years of personal experience it began to clearly dawn on me that pretty much all Muslim communities in the UK are hopelessly anti-Semitic, whether they are devoutly religious or not. The levels of anti Semitism amongst all these ethnically diverse communities is at near hysterical levels like that of 1930s Germany and could easily spill over into organized violence against British Jews whenever the circumstances allow it.

The only other significant group I have come across that are also verging on ideologically driven anti Semitism are many people who subscribe to the virtually religious doctrine of what we might describe as hard left wing politics. Many of these people are often upper middle class and also contain a large number of ethnically Jewish political ideologues too. Which is why anti Semitism is such a resilient idea as even Jews are attracted to its pernicious ideology.

The brutality of Hitler’s vision was that no Jew could renounce and be saved. However there have always been Jews attracted to anti Semitic movements that allow them to join. There are many examples of Jews converting to Islam and becoming Islamists, many Jews supporting Joseph Stalin’s openly anti Semitic regime, early Jewish converts to Christianity injecting hostile anti Semitic rhetoric into that essentially originally peaceful religion. In fact the historical examples from history and contemporary times are too numerous to go into. Suffice to say that a previous poster’s point that she was shocked at how many anti Semitic left wing ideologues she found in Israel is true people. Only a cursory review of the internet will show how many suicidal left wing anti Semitic Jewish ideologues there are amongst the both the diaspora and Israeli Jewish communities.

I am not a religious Jew or a religious person, but I can testify that I am stubborn and am and have always been willing to stand up to bullies and physical and verbal threats for what I think is essentially right. However long ago I learnt that you can not rely on other Jews or even good people as the majority will be intimidated by threats and fear and will even join the other side if given that chance.

Ian

Palestine an obsession of radical West, not Arabs
Brendan O'Neill
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/opinion/palestine-an-obsession-of-radical-west-not-arabs/story-e6frg6zo-1226006572220
Yet on the pro-Egypt demonstration in London on Saturday, there was a sea of Palestine placards. "Free Palestine", they said, and "End the Israeli occupation". The speakers had trouble getting the audience excited about events in Egypt

Mark 2

"That is why it is grotesque and immoral to dismiss this phenomenon as merely ‘criticism of Israel’ and those who protest at it as ‘waving the shroud of the Holocaust’ to ‘sanitise Israel’s crimes’. "

Do other readers ever get the impression as I do that the "protest" is hugely more frequent than any "waving" there may be and has turned into more of a largely anti semitic sword than a shield?

Joshua

"Of course, these are all the unique characteristics of classic anti-Jewish hatred throughout the ages. That is why it is grotesque and immoral to dismiss this phenomenon as merely ‘criticism of Israel’

Absolutely. Only a few months ago I recall sitting around the table with some colleagues and I raised this point. The immediate response to any suggestion I made that demonisation of Israel may correspond with anti-semitic discourse, was that this was not true. One declared "I am anti-Israel, but I am not anti-semitic!" I probed a little further asking the person, who is a gifted person in all other respects, from where she derived her views. Her reply: "From what I watch and what I read." The others did not say anything. Mmmm.

Precisely.

VEBott

@CGee

As it happens, I go with Israel too, unreservedly, out of simple philo-semitism. However I don't seek to excuse or hide the harsh historical process involved in populating land on which other people have lived for centuries. Dead kids are dead kids; your eagerness to dehumanise them and their grieving parents does neither you nor Israel's cause any credit. Jews, especially, should know better than to trivialise the sufferings of others.

@Joshua

Personally, yes I am concerned, to very varying degrees. I think that the way we conducted our bombing campaign on Serbia was ill-advised, especially Clinton braying that he would not commit ground troops, because I have to answer for it to Serbs I correspond with; I very much regret the criminal incompetence of our occupation of Iraq, although like many Iraqis and Kurds of my acquaintance I supported the invasion; I am confused by our continued presence in Afghanistan, but I am not constantly being challenged by others about civilian deaths there, so I have not found out exactly how many civilians we are killing. Like CGee (probably), I am old enough to realise that Isaiah Berlin was right ; there isn't always even a lesser of two evils to choose from, and our best values are sometimes just incompatible with each other.

TomTom

Pakistan has no right to statehood because The Muslim League stole Indian territory with connivance of the British.

Belarus has no right to Polish territory stolen by the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact

Poland has no right to German towns like Danzig and Torun stolen at Versailles

China has no right to Tibet; Russia has no right to Vladivostok

The US only has rights to Louisiana and Alaska because they bought them by contract, but Texas was taken from Mexico

RPK

David Lindsay@ 9.13am
Any Memorial to British soldiers killed tragically in Mandated Palestine would pale in size to that for the millions of Jews murdered in Europe because the British limited access to Jews prior to WW2

james

This is a truly fascinating blog and thread. I am especially fascinated by the fact that it all has a style and mode of reasoning that is best described as very "leftist" (in style, not in content).

One of the most distinctive features of "hard-left" political thinking is that anybody who disagrees with it is understood by adherents to be doing so because they are a dupe or in some way weak-willed, not because they have potentially valid reasons that could be made part of serious discussion. As Popper pointed out long ago this is one of the reasons to be suspicious of such leftism: it contains an inbuilt defence against any sort of falsification because all criticism can be accounted for as a symptom of false consciousness and inability to see the truth (and in fact as proof of the leftist cause, evidence of the way in which the ruling class propagates its ideology).

Almost all the comments here (and the original article) work in the same way. People who disagree are assumed to be deluded by the all powerful liberal media (often by channel 4 - the same channel that was cited on this blog a few days ago for showing a programme about prejudice and indoctrination in Muslim schools in the UK. Brilliantly this fact is not even registered).

Many of the comments also suggest that people who disagree have some kind of mental or psychological difficulty – if Jews then they are "self-hating" or cowardly; if gentiles they are indulgent fantasists of some kind.

There is no suggestion from any of the posts that it might be possible for people to have reasonable disagreements; that they might do so because they bring to bear different sources of experience and information which may both have some measure of value. Many and probably most of the people the commenters disagree with will have *some* good reasons behind their views. They may well be only some of the relevant reasons, a part of the story, in need of greater or different context etc. but that does not mean that they are in themselves bad reasons. The challenge is to be prepared to "enlarge mentality" (as Arendt put it after Kant) in order to develop and extend the sorts of reason shaping the debate, in order to make more likely the attainment of viable and just approaches to the resolution of our problems.

The "hard-leftist" tone also explains, I think, the way in which many of the comments (and Melanie's writings) end up with a kind of relativist approach to universal principles such as human rights and democracy. That is, the comments suggest that democracy and rights are not good things for the Arabs (they can't handle it, they would reach decisions that we don't like). That sort of relativism was a part of, for example, some communist ideologies that were happy to sacrifice rights for 'the bigger picture' which was in turn justified with reference to the superior insight of the leaders, their ability to understand what was really going on, the threats and plots and the propaganda of the evil forces around. Stalinists saw it as legitimate to sacrifice universal values to the specific interests of “the working class “ or “the soviet state” and that move is replicated in a different context here.

There is an interesting example of all this in the comment from Joshua at 10:57. He recounts an encounter with someone who disagreed with him, concluding thus:

"I probed a little further asking the person, who is a gifted person in all other respects, from where she derived her views. Her reply: "From what I watch and what I read." The others did not say anything. Mmmm. Precisely."

Two things are interesting about this remark. Firstly, Joshua concludes not by spelling out the implications or meaning of the encounter but with a knowing "Mmmm. Precisely". That is, the reader is just supposed to know. Joshua's remark is addressed to insiders, people who already possess the special insight of the initiated and who will nod in recognition along with him. It is not a comment motivated by a desire to make clearer his own position. It might be that Joshua in fact sort of enjoyed the encounter with this woman because from it he received confirmation and affirmation of his view and his special insight (a pleasure heightened by the fact that this person is otherwise “gifted”, making her error and Joshua’s rectitude all the more significant and elevating of his capacities). That is an absolutely classic "Leftist" style of thinking.

Secondly, when you read Joshua's remark straightforwardly, it says something extraordinary: the woman developed her views on the basis of what she watched and read. Clearly Joshua thinks this evidence of foolishness or error. So where is she supposed to seek information if not by reading? Should she go and seek direct testimony from people in Israel - but aren't all the Israeli's there now falling to self-hating and propaganda? And all the Palestinians are, prima facie, untrustworthy. So where is she supposed to get information?

Of course she is supposed to not need to get it from anywhere - she should be able to intuit the truth, to just see the reality of the situation without recourse to any of the sources all of which are tainted. Again, this is classic "hard-leftism" - the way of thinking is wholly inward looking and all about reinforcing the sense of rectitude of the believer.

This is absolutely fascinating.

Zalmi

Geiopolitical Tourette Syndrome - truly brilliant analysis. Bravo Melanie!

John

@TomTom - you raise a very valid point, but one which partly undermines the "israel is innoceent of all wrongs" perspective: in none of the examples cited above were peopel forcibly ejected from their homes on the basis of their religion without compensation and/or justified condemnation (I think the Pakistan India example fulfills all three; in any case, the partition of India cannot seriously be upheld as a shining example of something working!). I'm no supporter of Palestinian violence, but I find the Israeli blindness to its own wrongdoing utterly unfathomable.

Elizabeth

It's time to start spreading the truth.
Read this:
http://timespost.wordpress.com/2010/04/26/what-is-this-conflict-about/
and share it with all your friends.

Fergus Pickering

All I can say is that Palestine is just another muslim tyranny and the fewer of those there are around the world the better.

Miranda Rose Smith

My daughter, who goes to an orthodox Jewish school, tells me that, when the subject of Israel is discussed in their Jewish studies GCSE class, students routinely state things like ‘the Jews have no right to Israel because they stole the land from the Palestinians’.

The teachers should assign the students to do term papers on, say "The Palestinian Refugees in the 1940s and 1950s." They should insist on the students using PRINTED databases, from the '40s and '50s, such as the Reader's Guide to Periodic Literature, rather than the Internet. If the students do their homework at all, they will discover that during the 1940s, hundreds of thousands of JEWS were Palestinians and the now-so-called "Palestinians" were referred to as what they were, ARABS, and that it's consequently absurd to say that Israel stole the land from the Palestinians. If they do term papers on the history of Jordan, they will discover that the British, and the Arabs, stole the land from the Jews. Other term paper topics, the 1947 U.N. Partition Plan (if the students do their homework, they will discover that it was the ARABS who rejected that,) the demographics of Palestine in the 1900s, the founding of the cities of Petach Tikva, Ramat Gan and Tel Aviv, Arab propaganda, aimed at the Arabs in Palestine, before and during the 1948 War of Independence (the Arabs were told to get out, let the Jews be slaughtered, and then they could come back and loot Jewish property,) Egyptian propaganda, aimed at the Jews in Israel, before the Six Day War (Jewish women were told to get ready to entertain Egyptian soldiers,)the Jews who were expelled from Arab lands and fled to Israel, and how Israel took them in and how the Arab states in general, and Jordan, which, in 1948, was 4/5ths of Mandatory Palestine, did NOT take in the now-so-called "Palestinians."

The students should also be advised to take a good, long look at what happened to Lara Logan. Let me say again that all of us who are religious, of whatever denomination, should pray for her recovery, in body and soul.

I understand that these little dimwits are victims of groupthink and propaganda and a biased media. I pray that they will wise up. I don't understand the BBC spreading such propaganda. Isn't the BBC run by people who know that Israel's fight is their fight?

Stewart

>Wonderer
I didn't say that crazy religious fundies on the Jewish and Islamic side were the same, I merely pointed out they are all very unpleasant and should be marginalised. Same goes for some of the Catholics.
There is no place for them on a modern liberal democratic platform.

Graeme Thompson

"for the BBC and Channel Four executives and the serried ranks of lazy and malicious journalists in both print and broadcasting, for the supercilious academics and preening political progressives and precious know-nothing luvvies of stage and screen, Israel simply fills their vision."

That's worth making a poster out of!

Augustus

In this obsessional hatred of Israel the bigoted anti-Semites and the new generation of anti-
Israelites have become easily united in sanctioning what motivates Islam's hatred of Israel. It is a bizarre coalition indeed. But let's be clear, Jews, Christians and other non-believers are considered inferior beings. And if anyone even dares to raise difficult issues about their faith, and you get the imams railing against you, you have no option but to live in secure and undisclosed locations (like Wilders etc.), and there can't be much clearer proof than that about the intolerance of Islam
towards non-believers.

The persecution of European Jews
was a thousand year process, and
today two or three generations
after the Holocaust Europe still hasn't come to terms with
its consequences. In fact, the opposite might be the case; Europe might actually have felt
itself become held by the Jews to ransom, because Europe's sympathy with the Palestinians has precious little to do with their living standards. Europe loves the Palestinians because its a convenient way of forgiving itself for the most atrocious genocide in the history of the world.

Joshua

@ VEBott

"However I don't seek to excuse or hide the harsh historical process involved in populating land on which other people have lived for centuries."

Yes, but you leave out other equally important processes here:

1) The genocide of the Jews of Europe carried out by the Nazis with the complicity of much of Europe and the insouciance of the Allies. The theft of all their property. The fact that much of modern Europe is built on that property.

2) The attempted genocide of the Jews of Israel by the Arabs in 1948. The countless acts of terror committed by Arabs against a civilian Jewish population.

3) The ethnic cleansing by Arabs of many hundreds of thousands of Jews living in the Arab nations and the theft of all their property.

"Jews, especially, should know better than to trivialise the sufferings of others."

Ah yes, the Jews should know better line. Actually, it is the perpetrators of evil who should learn lessons and not the victims (would you suggest that a rape victim should know better?). With that in mind, it would seem that Europe has learned absolutely nothing since 1945, at least in terms of her sentiments about Jews.

And how many hours sleep have you lost about the civilian deaths caused by the US and her allies in recent wars? If the answer you gave is anything to go by you certainly seem to take a far more laid back attitude about those deaths than the one's resulting from Israel's wars. Remember also that in none of those other wars I mentioned has Britain been directly threatened. Israelis, on the other hand, are directly in the firing line every day of their lives. The last time British citizens were similarly threatened whole Germans cities were levelled by the RAF.

Robert Cohen

The Romans had a saying. "Those whom the G-ds wish to destroy...they first make mad". How true

Stewart

> Joshua & Augustus
Your views are pathetic, objectionable, hate filled and completely out of date.
Also, try and remember, Britain didn't have to go to war in 1939. It stood up for decency. Cut it any way you like but had it not, there would be no Israel and probably almost no Jews left alive. The USA wasn't your friend then either.

Reuven

The problem is there is no cure for Cancer. It appears that many Brits are terminally diseased by the most incurable strain - anti-Semitism.

Zeilig

Stewart posts the old canard that Britain went to war in 1939 to 'save' European Jews. It went to war for its own reasons, and left the Jews to their fate. During the war they stopped immigration to the mandate of Palestine and didn’t allow any of the survivors in after the war was over. They refused point blank to bomb the death camps.

Stewart

> Zeilig
Learn to read, I said no such thing. Don't be putting words into my mouth.
Britain went to war to support decency and liberal democracy and to stand against Totalitarian government. It could have very easily ignored mainland Europe and concentrated on the interests of the Commonwealth.
Nobody knew all the details of the Concentration Camps in the 1930's of course and the Bombing the Camps story is one particularly sad stupid clueless story that folk roll out.
My point at the outset was, it doesn't matter what the Palestinians think or do, it is the standards that Israel exercises that matters, and to date it has been a disaster for all sides, Israel included.

Celato

james

Your critique of the rhetoric in these blogs is spot-on.

Just wanted to express my appreciation, because it's highly likely to be ignored by those who urgently need to take your comments on board; and the rest may fail to respond in the spirit of 'you're preaching to the converted'.

Please don't go away!

VEBott

@Joshua

Lose sleep? Do you lose sleep about what is happening to people you don't know? I suggest Chamomile tea.

Best to keep indignation close. I have sought to learn about Israel, and in the process I have come to know a great many Palestinians. Their children being shot in the street, by an Israeli soldier whom I can identify with, is easier to imagine than the death of some Afghan of indeterminate age and sex, blown up by the Americans using a videogame like drone. I genuinely believe that if the British Army was known to be responsible for hundreds of children's deaths in Afghanistan, the troops would be called home.

Your historical points, while broadly correct, are all irrelevant. Israel has to defend itself but the fact that the Arabs have come to hate the Jews for the Zionist project and its consequences does not make them accountable for European antisemitism and indifference. I accept that there was effectively a population exchange which pretty much settles the right of return issue, but that's a different matter from failing to empathise with all its victims, or failing to recognise that while the Arab Jews were at least provided by the Israeli state with some avenue out of their refugee tents, the Palestinians were not even welcome in Jordan and Lebanon. Why assume that the Palestinian refugees are responsible for the unpleasant regimes of the Arab world?

Israel is not currently threatened in the way British cities were; can you tell me how many people have died because of the Katyushas? Over the whole of the last 10 year? In any case, I do not believe fire-bombing Dresden was justified, much as I can empathise with the temptation to kill as many of the bastards as possible.

Graeme Thompson

@Stewart
February 21st, 2011 7:07pm

Could it be Stewart, that the Arab society's refusal to accept Israel is because it is rooted in a religion that teaches hate and vengeance?

Could it be Stewart, that there is no peace in the Middle East because while one side has bent over backwards to acheive it the other doesn't want it?

Could it be Stewart that your view of the situation is that evil ultimately triumphs and you want to make sure you're on the winning side?

""What doth it profit a man to gain the world if he loseth his soul""?

david

If Jewsih kids in a Jewish school are repeating the garbage about the Jews having no right to their land then thats hardly a suprise. I would be astonished if every person in the UK did not repeat the same lie given the 25 years of relentles drivel vomited out by the bbc and channel 4 etc about 'occupied land'. Lies has a way of sticking ...especially when its been pushed as truth for an entire generation. Maybe if Allen West puts himself up for US President and wins and then continues his absolute defence of Israel then the population of this country will listen to his words and start to get the truth. If its left up to Cameron and Hague then Israel is in absolute danger.

Stewart

> Mr Thompson
I don't know what you are thinking or reading. Nor am I anti Israel, quite the contrary. I'm pointing out that you deal with Palestinians effectively by occupying the moral high ground. Not by getting down into the dirt with them. All the lessons are in Northern Ireland. Practice internment and military execution of civilians, no matter how satisfying it feels (and it does), and expect the world to turn against you and for the conflict to worsen and go on forever. Israeli strategy has been an utter failure. A disaster for Jews and Arabs alike. Just as NI policy was a disaster for decades. In the end you have to swallow hard and appease the terrorists and find a middle way.
Absolute segregation and mass murder of population groups supporting the terrorists may seem more attractive (and it was) but it simply isn't real world any more. Hasn't been for 50 years. Get used to it.

Paul

Okey "in 1967 Israel liberated Judea, Samaria and Gaza" lol yes who will every forget the photos of cheering crowds of Palestinians welcoming their Israeli "liberators". As they say, denial is a river in Egypt

Augustus

The BBC Richard Dimbleby Lecture
given by Michael Morpurgo was definitely biased against Israel
in a clever sort of way. By using the concern for children in such emotive terms of personal association (author of childrens' books etc.) it criticises Israel's defensive measures as being assaults on Palestinians as helpless victims. The wall was also referred to, ignoring the fact that the security barrier has saved many lives of Israelis, including children. This is
the same old sin - anti-Semitism
in a politically correct new wrapper.

Okey

James, "the woman" can get some very reliable information about Arab /Islamic attitudes, aspirations from the Arab/Islamic/"Palestinian" sources themselves simply by going into the website of MEMRI.
There she will find a "treasure trove" of "Palestinian" Arab Islamic hatred, venom, irrationality, callousness, brutality, genocidal fantasies,deceitfulness,deviousness- and all from the horse's mouth.

Zeilig

Stewart, you are letting your perceived distortion of the facts get in the way of reality. Why let the facts get in the way of the truth, eh?

Marjorie Hazeldene

And now the National Theatre gets in on the act: http://www.nationaltheatre.org.uk/62809/productions/the-holy-rosenbergs.html

J D Bryan

James

Whether one could agree or not your piece would do justice to a university debate. Yet, we are looking at the present geo-political situation and by implication how to deal with thus. In that there are two basic positions. As in WW2 there is no geo-political third way.

There are those who support western or (classical) liberal values: freedom of speech, conscience, political, religious freedom, etc. Human rights, an independent judiciary, regular, free fair and competitive elections and by implication intellectual integrity, etc. And those who do not. Though many in the non-west do support it, their respective regimes and wider society do not. Liberals are few and far between in the non-west.

Also, any honest analysis of this present global order implies the endorsement of intellectual freedom thus the west.

However, Israel represents the former and the MidEast regimes bar none represent the latter.

The modern western Hard Left (a title they chose supposedly proof of the degree of “Leftwingness” ) claim the former. Yet, when the Communist bloc was in ascendancy most like orthodox Marxists rejected western values. Claimed their “theory of freedom” is genuine freedom rather than partial liberal freedom. Though, their aspirations were based on goodwill, aspired a benign new world order, including intellectual freedom. In reality this could never be, thus reality revealed itself.

Assuming historical inevitability thus justified supporting revolutionary wars throughout the third world to destroy any (non-socialist/communist) dictatorships. Thus, supported any Communist bloc intervention however violent. Plus any such movements and regimes, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. Revolution meant cynically accepting these regimes, whatever the cost, because capitalism must necessarily be replaced with the superior socialist/communist world order.

Yet, their cynicism knows no bounds. Once the Communist bloc fell most have become apologists even supporters of the most brutal anti-modern and anti socialist/communists regimes and movements, Iran, Bin Laden et al, Hamas, etc., who are fascist in all but name. Even so, have come to claim, or do not deny, support for western culture, whilst employing the most intellectually dishonest means. Moreover, employ pacifist arguments in their opposition to any western efforts to remove egregious dictatorships, Saddam, the Taliban. Even the first Gulf War authorised by the UN. Clearly in desperation they would say anything, ally with anyone to oppose thus defeat the west (They would side with a Martian invasion and then hold America responsible for this “solar system unrest”).

Yet, if their alliance managed to defeat the west they must realise eventually they will have to destroy the Islamists or be destroyed themselves. Perhaps they expect a long drawn out war.

We thus conclude, most have forsaken even the theoretical decent elements of their ideology and adopted fascism in all but name. Their aspirations have been dashed thus in despair have adopted nihilism, alliances with any group however anti-socialist/communist, indeed, egregious. Invite global destruction which can only lead to fascism because they have lost the historical argument, socialism/communism is dead. Meanwhile, have paved the path in which the Soft Left follow. Thus both, thus most of the Left, are helping to undermine the west through creating a conduit for fascism to manifest.

Of course, if the west wakes up this can countered.

Okey

Paul, read carefully: I wrote that Israel liberated the "territory", not the Arabs who lived there.
However, you will be surprised to learn that for many years after Israel's assuming control, many "Palestinian" Arabs actually grudgingly admitted that Israel gave them human rights, freedoms, economic and educational opportunities ,of which they had been deprived by their former Arab masters, who had tyrannised and brutalised them.Then, however, came
Yasser Arafat and Hamas, who placed a higher value on murdering Jews than on the welfare of their people or on compromise and recognition of Jewish rights. Consequently they stirred the pot just as their nazi-sympathising forebears had done in the 1930's and 40's.
You might care to recall a rather parallel set of circumstances following Israel's capture of southern Lebanon in 1982, the local Shi'ite Arabs welcomed the Israeli military as liberators from the Sunni yoke.

Kiran

Apart from the anti-semitism there is another thread running through this whole issue. That is the need of our liberal/left intelligentsia to see itself as non-violent and non-aggressive. So we have a double standard. Any country associated with the capitalist west (eg. Israel) is condemned for violent warlike actions while nations outside of this sphere can commit atrocities without receiving anything like the same level of criticism. Indeed, if they are attacking westerners then our intelligentsia oblige us to examine our consciences to see what injustice on our part provoked the attack.

In all this there is one aim which trumps all others: no matter how cruelly the rest of the world behaves, the liberal/left conscience must be kept spotlessly clean.

kit_fisto

It's mostly not about anti-Semitism nor bigotry when israel is singled out unproportianately. It's more the believe that as the israelis sharing our western-style civilization, and seemingly (or virtually) are more powerful than the cultural backwardly palestinians (and surrounding islamic countries) that western moderates following the idea of multiculturalism tend to believe, that You just got to be as tolerant, as accommodating as possible, to appease the "other side" and receive peace. It's naivity and good-mindedness that makes them fail to understand the stakes and the threat, israel is facing.

Ask Britons, Dutch or Germans if they accept their children will have a minority-status in their own countries in a few decades, and You will see the dilemma: Of course they don't want that, but because of the fear of being called a "Racist" or "Xenophobe" they don't dare to speak out. It's the idea of "We're all the same", the idea of Multiculturalism (Cultural Relativim).

Europe abolishes itself. Notice the Demographics in all European countries and You will see how fast they might capsize.

Cameron, Merkel, Sarkozy declared Multiculturalism a failure. Will they have the courage to act and formulate policies that can change trends? Is there a real willingness to do so?

Let's hope (and pray)...

Derek BLADES

There is certainly increasing criticism of Israel throughout Western Europe and North America. Israel started life with a fund of good will founded partly in Western guilt about the holocaust. The changed attitude is not because some deep-down anti-Semitism is resurfacing. That is a paranoid fantasy spread by many on this blog. The new hostile attitude to Israel - shared incidentally by the more perceptive Jews in Britain and elsewhere - is directly attributable to Israel's brutal treatment of Lebanon, Gaza and the West Bank. Make peace not war and all kinds of nice things can happen

Margaret Muller-Johansson

It is sick, i think some of the problem here is not only the media but i think some of the young generation Israels became leftist, the Jewish in Britain also became leftist everyone is becoming some kind of lefty or Atheist, if someone ever come to me and say to me the Jewish don't have rights for this and that and they did this and that my answer to them will be.

So What?.

Okey

Zionists and Zionist sympathisers, keep "the iron wall" strong and we will triumph!

Okey

While the Arabs and other Moslems rip themselves apart in various parts of the world, Israel is making huge strides, and is constantly reinforcing its "iron wall" of resistance to the enemy's belligerence, and to its enemy's collaborators' hypocrisy and malevolence.

Gershon

@Derek BLADES February 23rd, 2011 10:06am
"Make peace not war and all kinds of nice things can happen."

You mean like the nice things that happened within less than a week of Israel's unilateral withdrawal from Gaza?

Stewart

> Zeilig
Rock on there boyo.Keep it up. Israeli kids will have to do military service and die in action forever on the basis of your arguments. Great idea. Obviously those are other people and other people's kids so who should you care.

Derek BLADES

@ Gershon

Israel blockades Gaza and regularly lobs shells and fires bullets into the Gaza strip. That's making peace?

guillaume

I gather from this thread that a number of Israeli citizens are so depraved - brainwashed even - as actually to disagree with their government's policies. I'd never have imagined this possible in a democracy.

Gershon

@ Derek Blades

Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza, leaving behind an economic infrastructure that the Gazans could have used to create a thriving agricultural industry. The Gazans totally destroyed that infrastructure and then started indiscriminately lobbing rockets and mortars at Israel. Do you call that a suitable response to Israel's attempt to make peace?

kit_fisto

@ Derek Blades - Are You informed that Hamas is running Gaza, or about Abbas' comment "No Jew shall be living in Palestine"? Do You really understand what is at stake here, WHO You are dealing with, WHO You wanna grant accommodation and appeasement-policies towards in order to make "peace"??? And this guy Abbas is the "moderate????

Watch and Listen to Qaradawi on memri.org - go more often to memri.org to understand the real agenda of Islamists.

The madness has to end, the madness is called "Multiculturalism". All cultures side by side, all sharing the same values, wouldn't that be great? But they aren't! What if You have to deal with supremacists, that hate Your religion, Your way of life? Appease them is Your answer? Tolerate them?

I'm german, I see more and more Dutch, English, French, Danish and especially American folks all over the world waking up and get informed about what Islam is about. You should too.

This day and age, Europe again is in desperate need of a Churchill, but it's overcrowded with Chamberlains.

No Tolerance for Intolerance! No Apology for Being Free!

VEBott

@kit_fisto

You have a point, but how do you see the future? Is Israel forever to rule over a disenfranchhised Arab population in J&S? Or does it just incorporate that population as Israeli citizens and suffer the effects of the demographic timebomb? Or are you too hoping for another opportunity to drive the remaining Palestinian civilians out at the point of a bayonet?

Jerry

RPK wrote, "Any Memorial to British soldiers killed tragically in Mandated Palestine would pale in size to that for the millions of Jews murdered in Europe because the British limited access to Jews prior to WW2"

This states clearly the nature of British anti-Semitism: Clean hands, but a filthy dirty heart.

Brian Williams

It makes you wonder why Germany has the crime of holocaust denial, which, thanks to the European Arrest Warrant, is probably a crime here. Surely that recognises the heinous results of anti-Semitism? Yet this country is falling back into anti-Jewish rhetoric, this time not from the right, but from the left! It's mind boggling. It seems that "let's hate the Jews" is a default position. What I'd really like to know is why the left is so supportive of Islam. Talk about turkeys voting for an early Christmas.

Derek BLADES

@ kit_fisto. You told me "I'm german, I see more and more Dutch, English, French, Danish and especially American folks all over the world waking up and get informed about what Islam is about. You should too."

I'm not sure that the good folks you have been seeing can really help you much on the nature of Islam. I get around too and in the last five weeks I have been working with Moslem colleagues from Malaysia, Indonesia, Lebanon, Jordan, Brunei and the Maldives Islands. Quite nice people when you get to know them. There are some nasties in all these places just as there are in Germany, Denmark and the other countries you visit but the overwhelming majority everywhere are just ordinary folk wanting to get on with earning a living and raising a family.

For historical reasons, a german should take extra care about stigmatising people for their religion.

C.Gee

"For historical reasons, a german should take extra care about stigmatising people for their religion."

The Germans stigmatised on the grounds of race, analagously to what you are trying to do in that flaccidly jingoistic statement.

Stuart Rose

A quick point and a quick question from an American reader and fan of Melanie's.
1. My vague memory of the Jewish Chronicle from years ago-I guess, about 20 years ago- was that it had no truck with the pax on both their houses approach to the Palestine-Israel conflict. Has the paper indeed changed its viewpoint?
2. What Melanie's daughter reports from her school is very disturbing, a sign of how bigoted the British media is. Even we Anglophiles here in the States have to admit that Brits just don't "get" Israel and the Jews as most Americans do(not forgetting, though, that academics here, too, have turned on Israel).I'm not orthodox, but I do have friends whose children attend orthodox day schools and historical myths that demonize Zionists are, to the least, not even to be found in nooks and crannies of the Orthodox world.

S. Esakov

Indeed. Even an Israeli NGO like Save a Child's Heart that has provided life saving cardiac surgery to over 2,500 indigent, multinational children since 1995 has garnered criticism as a Zionist vehicle and not praised as upholding "tikkun b'olam" [healing the world] which is one of the cornerstones of its existence. This is another instance of indiscriminate animosity.

pterodactyl

If it is any consolation, the enemy within also hate their own country, Britain. It is just that they are currently focusing their hate on Israel as it is a small country and they feel it will be easier to destroy than a large one such as their own, Britain. But Britain is on the same hate list, just a bit further down.
S.Rhodesia was once top, as was S.Africa.
Like these countries, Israel, Britain and the USA each represent civilised values, so they have to be brought down by the people of hate.

Unlike S.Rhodesia, S.Africa, Britain and the USA, however, Israel is also the place that the muslims were driven out of in the Crusades, so they have aroused the anger not only of the left, but also of those muslims who still think it is the middle ages. By taking over the Holy Lands it will make these muslims feel proud of themselves and in their minds prove that their religion is better than the other two. If only they had art or music or science or literature or films or other interests, they would not be focusing so much on the glory of their religion.

carly

The program has lots of inaccuracies like Jews live in big houses with swimming pools whilst Arabs live in tiny village properties. This is totally unreal. Firstly Israel has Palestinian Arabs in the parliament and also as a judge in the supreme court.The majority of people live in flats. Also it doesn’t mention how the British slaughtered 15,000 Arabs or the Arabs slaughtered Jews in Hebron and Safad in 1920. Cutting off the head of children and doing live castrations. Finally it appears that the Arabs the ones who are clean. Back in 1948 7% of the land was owned by Palestinian Jews 5% by the Arabs. 70% by the British and more land was bought by the Jews. The Jews always wanted peace in the region but unfortunately the Palestinian Arabs are manipulated by Iran through Hamas. That is the real problem here stopping peace. If you’re going to do a historical accurate drama about the promise you need to look fairly at all sides

John.

Firstly: The so-called "Palestinians" are mainly, (not entirely, obviously), descended from neighbouring Syrians, Egyptians and Libyans who arrived in Palestine after the Jews had made the desert bloom from the 20's to the 40's.
Joshua: Serbian, Iraqi and Afghan civilian casualties of war were not deliberately targeted by the allies. This makes a big difference to your argument.
Tom Tom: You could have mentioned Kalinagrad, annexed and still held on to by Russia and New Mexico, Arizona, Nevada, California and Washington all stolen from A hopelessly out-gunned Mexico by the USA. France used to own all the land West of the Mississipi and East of Spanish and then Mexican territory.
James: It is not that democracy and rights are not good for Arabs, but that they are not acceptable to Islam of which the ideology inevitably leads to theocracy and sharia based law. It is what is (available to be) watched and read - The Promise", the programme about the Palestinian child, Newsnight etc., etc. that is responsible, not reading and viewing per se.
John: It is a fact that the Arabs in Israel at Independence were told by the assembled Arab armies to leave their houses there for safety's sake, prior to returning and mudering the Jews, looting their houses and stealing their property.
Before Independence land was bought from Arabs, not stolen and there were always Jews in Israel, right from the time of the destruction of the Temple by the Eperor Titus onwards, obviously increasing in number in the 20's and 30's after the British promise to found a Jewish homeland in the WHOLE of Ottoman Palestine, not the miserable fraction that was ultimately given to them.
VEBott: It is now admitted that Dresden contained strategic targets and that the fire storm was an unintended consequence of the carpet bombing.
Blades: You might add that Malaysia, Indonesia, Lebanon, Jordan,(=Palestine),and Brunei have not and certainly don't intend to, hand out passports to assorted Africans, Asians, West Indians etc., belonging to cultures and religions aggressively opposed to their own, and who aim to supplant them in their own countries as soon as they are able to do so.
Pterodactyl: You could also have pointed out that, as in Spain, the Muslims had wrested the Holy Land, (and all of North Africa and the rest of the Near East), from Christian Byzantine rule, before they were chased out again by the Crusaders, (only for a short time unfortunately).

Derek BLADES

John. Thank you for your end of term on various contributors to this blog. I am sure we will all pull our socks up and try to do better next time.

You started by noting that "The so-called "Palestinians" are mainly, (not entirely, obviously), descended from neighbouring Syrians, Egyptians and Libyans".

Why does that make them "so-called"? Or perhaps your point is that their mixed parentage makes them somehow less worthy than people who are not so mixed up. In any event, you would have great difficulty in finding evidence the "native" Palestinians were in a minority in the 1920s.

You go on to say that these mixed-up people arrived in Palestine “after the Jews had made the desert bloom from the 20's to the 40's." The coastal belt of Palestine has always been regarded as rather fertile - a land of milk and honey as it were. That is why it was farmed by Palestinian Arabs over many generations and it is why those that had their homes and lands confiscated want to go back.

John.

Derek Blades: I pointed out that the so-called "Palestinians" are no more Palestinian than they are say Syrian etc. because the general assumption is that their forbears have been there for thousands of years and not simply decades. Secondly, is it surprising that people who had left to save their skins, planning to return and murder, loot and rob the Jews, who they presumed would be defeated by the hugely superior numnbers of Muslims assembled against them, then lost land and property as a result? (And then proceeded to become the only refugees in the world never to resettle in a new place.)

pterodactyl

Brian Williams says: “Yet this country is falling back into anti-Jewish rhetoric, this time not from the right, but from the left! It's mind boggling. It seems that "let's hate the Jews" is a default position. What I'd really like to know is why the left is so supportive of Islam."

I think the root cause of the hate of Israel is not anti-semitism. The left hated S.Rhodesia and S.Africa just as much as they now hate Israel. The media had a similar obsession and the politicians behaved in a similar way, searching out specks in one side and ignoring logs in the other.

I think the left are motivated by a hatred of that which is better and civilised, especially when in conflict with that which is backward and barbaric. As well as hating Israel they also hate their own country, Britain, and its culture and history and want to give it a good kicking.

Whether they bring their own country down by communism, which was their previous hope, or by Islam, which is their current hope, they do not mind. Knowing that they and their children will suffer too if they succeed does not deter them in the slightest. This is because hate is a very powerful motive.

John. - I agree, and also note that in the recent film 'Robin Hood' and another recent cinema film about swords and fighting and witches, the film makers covering this period seem to relish scenes of Christian Crusaders murdering Arab women and children.