A case of wishful thinking?

C.Gee

Whether the statement bears any relationship to the results of the poll, it certainly reveals the political cluelessness of YouGov. Freedom and democracy would first require deep economic and social reforms.

I fear the phrase "freedom-and-democracy" is going to go the way of "free-and-fair-elections".

Graeme

Melanie, you should read the works of Sir John Glubb, who was the British commander of the Jordanian Army for about 36 years, before his dismissal in 1955 by the then King Hussein. Sir John believe that parliaments and political parties had no place in Arab countries because the Arabs were too hot headed a race, were too tribal and that nowhere in Arab or Muslim History was there any talk of parliaments or parties. Arabs have it deeply ingrained into them that they can go and see the boss or local sheikhs whenever they wanted to see them to sort out any problems. All Arabs had equality before the sheikh. Sir John gave an example of the then caliph in Baghdad in the tenth century sacking the Mayor of Baghdad simply for putting a lock on his front door. The caliph told him how could people come and see him if his door was locked. I know that many people will say that I am out of date, but I don't think so. The Arabs have their ways, which seem strange to western people, as indeed our parliaments and political parties seem strange to them. they must respect our ways of parliaments, political parties and Democracy and we must respect their tribally led system of sheikhs with the King or Malik in Arabic at the top. In fact King Abdullah of Jordan should not only have sacked his entire, but not replaced them at all. he should get rid of the Jordanian parliament completely and govern like a true Arab Malik, going out into the streets, meeting his brother Arabs and sorting out the problems for himself like his ancestors did for centuries. Westminster style government is not for the Arabs.

David D

You're not missing anything. This is the interpretation of the statistics by YouGov. There is a quote relevant to this - There are lies, Damned lies and Statistics

Oscar B.

Two words - Naomi Klein.

CD

I don't think these statistics show anything extraordinary. Someone finding their own two feet in the world would want the same - stability, security and economic progress.

All the stuff about transparency is again emanating from security.

Oflife

@Graeme: Indeed indeed. Having visited Egypt in 2004 and spent 1/2 the time wondering the streets of Cairo and a few smaller towns, I came to the same conclusion. Arab values are similar to Italian/Mediterranean or even our own from a few centuries ago. Open doors, ultra close community, with whole families in close proximity - the younger taking care of the older (and vice versa as appropriate!). Not to mention, a far more healthy diet of wholesome locally farmed or grown produce. (The meat I ate in a restaurant in Egypt was so tasty and succulent, I could not believe I had missed out all my life. Why was it so? The cow had been 'living' next door and was slaughtered and 'served' locally. No storage, chemicals, growth hormones etc.) Any food poisoning from such trips comes from the salads, because the water used to wash the salads is of course naturally loaded with bacteria our Western stomaches cannot handle.

With the West lost and in an economic mess (the Middle East is not in an economic mess, it's just visually less polished because the roads are earthen), we could well do with adopting some of the Arab (& Israeli) concepts of the fluid holistic open society.

Whilst living in the USA, (1991-2000), I recall George Bush Snr going on TV to complain that Americans were all stuck inside their homes glued to the TV or computer, ignoring their neighbours and the needy close by. He suggested people go back to the old way of sitting outside on the porch, watching the world go by and saying hello once in a while.

He was spot on!

(Weather permitting here in the UK, not that our housing layouts and cramped or non existence front gardens would allow for such a way of life.)

I predict that over the coming years, the West will naturally adopt these concepts simply due to the cost of fuel, travel and material possessions that have until now allowed us to escape reality and become oblivious to our surroundings - because it's easy. #iPod

Along with a change of heart and social infrastructure, a whole new attitude to architecture will be required.

I'm quite excited and optimistic actually! Only threat is nuclear terrorism (in a city), that would be a bit of a downer, but it would force a huge migration to the countryside, perhaps triggering this utopian existence?

#endofdays

Ian Miller

I would recommend reading the survey rather than the press release.

http://today.yougov.co.uk/sites/today.yougov.co.uk/files/YG-Archives-Pol-YouGov-ANewEgyptREFORMATTED_HT-210211.pdf

Gordon Square

Graeme

Using a qualitative opinion more than 50 years old to refute current quantitative data does not work.

The old model is broken.

We cannot predict what happens next. Western and Israeli intelligence agencies did not predict this. Western leaders have no clear plan of how to react. And the locals are not turning to the West for support.

daniel maris

Yes - you're missing an explanation of what you think about this survey. Is this supposed to be a guessing-game?

In any case you fail to give an explanation of the survey methodlogy. Were the respondents required to name just one category, or to choose a certain number (say three) or as many as they liked...???

The response seems very encouraging to me, if true.

Graeme -

Yes - Melanie should listen to Sir John Glubb, who would have wiped out the Jews of the new state of Israel. I'm sure she'd be impressed by that piece of advice!

AY

Egyptians choose "Political Stability"..

OK Belgium is politically unstable, and North Korea stable, so what.

Similarly, all other listed things, aren't a guarantee of good character. And what is the meaning of "better education"? is it the one more Islamic, or secular?

Key questions are, if population supports Sharia's retrograde laws, like punishments for blasphemy, apostasy and adultery, and if they like to see Israel destroyed.
And for these, answers are very well known.

Nothing good will come from Middle-Eastern Mordor, all hopes are futile.
It's time to build more walls and drones, and planes and Navy ships, and store more ammo.

Derek Pasquill

The joys of an Arab Spring - a great opportunity to bulldoze Christian places of worship such as the St. Bishoy Monastry in Wady el-Natroun.

The Egyptian Army's observation that it has no intention of demolishing the monastry in the following quote (source Jihad Watch) is hardly reassuring.

Open quote: "The Egyptian Armed Forces issued a statement on their Facebook page denying that any attack took place on St. Bishoy Monastery in Wady el-Natroun, "Reflecting our belief in the freedom and chastity of places of worship of all Egyptians." The statement went on to say that the army just demolished some fences built on State property and that it has no intention of demolishing the monastery itself..." End quote.

All we need now is a Caliphate Summer to bring things nicely to the boil.

tiki

Another poll // another outcome!
In an article in the Daily Mail by John Bradly; a poll conducted one month before Mubarak's fall by Pew Research Center....MAJORITY of Egyptians believe in: STONING as punishment for adultery (women only), HAND AMPUTATION for theft and DEATH for Islamic converts. So much for change and Democracy, Arabian style. All the *** eyed people who think that a new era has landed upon Arabia are right, but it will be a bloody one.

daniel maris

Tiki,

I would make two points.

1. Islamic conservatism and supremacism does not rule out an alliance or accommodation. Look at KSA.

2. If that is what people think, it is better we know it and see it.

I think until the Egyptian people have a chance to practise democracy we won't know for sure. If you do surveys of people in the UK they favour severe punishments for wrongdoers in the abstract. But put them in a jury and it is quite a different story.

We have to find out what these people want in practice. If it's really Islam and war, well then isn't it better we find out now rather than continue helping them with advanced weaponry and economic aid?

3. The "our son of a bitch" (OSOB) policy couldn't continue for ever. It only takes one breakdown and it's "game over" as we saw with Mubarak, and at the same time it discredits our values and influence.

maxsceptic

Alas, the majority of the Arab world is where the West was circa 1400: 100 years before the Reformation; 300 years before the Enlightenment.

I don't anticipate any real all encompassing social change among the masses in my lifetime. It will take at least 3-4 generations.

VEBott

@Graeme,
Given Sir John's background and loyalties, did you really expect him to espouse the idea of Arab republicanism that led to his own downfall when it swept the Arab world and broke British influence there?

The conclusion of Benny Morris' book on the man is available free at Google Books.
There's an instructive review here too: http://www.guardian.co.uk/books/2002/nov/23/featuresreviews.guardianreview34

It is precisely an end to patronage, arbitrariness and monarchical or presidential privilege that today's Arabs both need and want. That's what Melanie is missing.

J D Bryan

This list illustrates a serious problem. Shows the people’s of Egypt, and we can assume most Arabs in general, just do not get what the free society is. What the West is. We hold much due to Left-wing ideology.

It is not they can never understand. Rather, hitherto, they have been subject to anti-western propaganda by Arab despots, even those allied to the west. But also anti-capitalist propaganda, from prominent “progressive” Arabs, seemingly most of the Arab intelligentsia, whose ideology was learnt through their studies in western universities the hotbed of anti-western anti-capitalist ideology. So many leading anti-western Arabs, and third world leaders, were thus “educated” in the west only to reject it. Most seem to lean to socialism if not fully socialist. Where, loosely, socialism holds economic freedom undermines freedom thus calls the state, actors, should control the economy in the name of peoples thereby secure freedom. That because the west is capitalist thus is not ultimately free as (classical not the Left-wing corrupted hijacked definition) liberals hold. That not only the west cannot claim exclusive manifestation of freedom but is inferior to Left-wing ideas of what is the genuine free society. That can reject the west despite the greatest advances ever experienced by any peoples.

Thus, Left-wing ideology has given non-western, by and large non-liberal, peoples seemingly an alternative superior free societal model to capitalism.

Yet, Left-wing ideology, socialism cannot live up to promises. It cannot deliver a free, affluent, progressive society,in the extreme secures totalitarianism. Its only “ideological success” has been as a conduit for anti-westernism By extension presents an ideological door to all manner of anti-capitalist experiments, movement and regimes.

Has been, and always will, represents an existential threat to capitalism, the west, thus the free world.

Thus, why the last of half of the 20th century was subject to the most egregious regimes, where some still remain. That even today, this anti- western Left-wing geo-political positioning has given a cue, given geopolitical “legs” to Islamism, thus created an unholy alliance with religious despotism, Bin Laden, Taliban, Hamas,Hezbollah Iran‘s theocracy.

We should not be surprised. Even if not fortunately Islamist, but in a secular mode, that even the educated Arabs should be ignorant of the essence of the west. The freedom of expression, speech, religion, etc., etc. That these are aspects of freedom specifically predicated on economic freedom the foundation of a thriving civil society thus freedom. “He [she] whose pays the piper decides the…” societal agenda! That civil society not the state underwrites freedom. That is, where the polity based on consensual politicking thus takes its cue from a thriving dynamic civil society. A society that does claim perfection but thrives on economic, political social, cultural reforms, not least, advances in science and technology. Though the west can learn from the non-west, nonetheless, is the only hope for humanity, as defined by those who respect the sanctity of the individual thus freedom. Left-wing ideology has much to answer for.

tiki

Daniel Maris, I can give you only one answer here..."I hope that YOU are right, and I'm wrong" but, knowing a little bit about the ME, their history and mentality I'm sorry to say that history will 'probably prove me and my sceptical outlook right.

Baron

Unless you followed Ian Miller’s @ 7.05 suggestion to look at the survey itself you should do so. The picture that emerges is far more complex than that given in the summary, e.g. a large number of those questioned expect the relationship with Israel to worsen, yet responding to another question, a vast majority of the respondents believe the new Egypt will honour its current international accords.

one feature of the answers surprises. The divergence in views amongst the age groups for virtually all of the questions is quite narrow, one would expect the young to show bigger distance from the old.

JohnW

Worked in Iraq for three years during the 80s. Seen Abu Ghraib from the inside as one of my colleagues was jailed for five years on a fabricated charge. Westerm liberals really need a dose of reality with regard to these people.

Their children are fed anti-west, anti-Israel propaganda in schools from primary years up. Children go to school in army uniform, complete with plastic machine guns, for army practice. Military programmes on local TV for hours on end. The aggression and hatred is relentless and deep-seated.

This is the mindset you are dealing with. It's drilled into them all from birth and we have nothing to answer it. Sending them flowers and singing hippy freedom songs just won't cut it. Sorry.

Wake up, you left-wing dreamers!

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Yeah i think something is missing it should be like this:
1)Allah
2)Muhammad
3)Freedom and democracy
4)political stability
5)
6)
7)
8)
9)
10)Maybe women's rights

Comprehensiveboy

So nobody knows what these people will do next. Big surprise. We continue to regard the muslim contries as some kind of prison camp where we have to remind the warders to keep their intelligence up to date to predict riots or whatever the caged beasts will do next. If they are agressive and whatever the level of justification they may have for hating the west we need to know about it and bring our own image in the mirror into focus. Do we want to leave this to yet unborn generations? On top of that I wonder if the following will be posted and it comes not from any ill-feeling toward the jews or Israel. Is Melanie or is she not a patriotic zionist jew whose job it is to ensure that said country's interests are protected in educated public discussion in UK? I am stating the bleedin' obvious am I not?

Adam B.

JohnW, interesting post. Of course, all the lefties bleating about Abu Ghraib and the evils of the US had never even heard of the place when Saddam was using to tortute innocent people.

They couldn't care less, unless they can blame America or Israel.

VEBott

"Of course, all the lefties bleating about Abu Ghraib and the evils of the US had never even heard of the place when Saddam was using to tortute innocent people. "

Nonsense. The Iraqi Communist Party and both the main Iraqi Kurdish political movements are certainly leftist and their members were frequent guests of Saddam's torturers. Their contacts in the European left, from Danielle Mitterrand downward, were well aware of and publicised what sort of creep Saddam was, even as Mitterrand, Thatcher and Kohl sold Saddam weapons and backed him in the war against Iran throughout the 1980's.

Adam B.

VEBott - the leftists in the West couldn't care less about their "comrades" in Abu Ghraib or anywhere else unless they can blame the US or Israel. Where indeed were their protests about the issues you cite? The boycott calls?

In addition, you will find that it was the Communist Soviet Union which supplied Saddam with around 80-90% of his weaponry (most of the rest came from France and China).

VEBott

Adam B.

I refer you to that leftist rag, the Daily Mail, which recently described Labour MP Anne Clwyd as “the first MP to highlight the plight of Kurdish refugees fleeing bombardments by Saddam Hussein's regime” and as “a veteran campaigner against the brutality of the Iraqi regime” .

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-183190/Labour-MP-Iraq-ambush-scare.html

There are endless other examples but since neither of us have immediate access to the archives of the Morning Star or to the collected outpourings of the Trots I'll just quote this piece of nonsense from Socialist Worker Review in 1987:

“ We are with the Iranians—for the defeat of the whole coalition of forces, including Iraq, that is ranged against them.”.

You see, the lefties saw Saddam as a US ally back then, and they weren't far wrong.

As for weapons, it is true that, in the 70's, Iraq was mainly armed by the USSR. However, from the late 70's and during the conflict itself, he increasingly sought to break his dependence on the Soviets. German firms played a particularly prominent role in Iraq's development of chemical weapons. Britain's Westland provided Gazelle and Lynx helicopters, Plessey provided Saddam's Electronic Command Centre, Royal Ordnance supplied rocket propellant. France's Dassault provided Mirage and Super-Etendard fighters. French firms also provided Exocet, Milan, HOT, Magic, Martel, and Armat missiles; Alouette III, Gazelle, and Super-Puma helicopters, howitzers and small arms; in fact, according to SIPRI, France provided 75% of the weapons used during the war.

JohnW

VEBott,

The US was an "ally" of Iraq only in sense of "the the enemy of my enemy" If you recall, Iran was still a very deep wound for the Americans when the Iran-Iraq war broke out, soon after the fall of the Shah and the hostage crisis .

As for arms supply, you will find that the British component was minor compared to the Russians, French and Chinese. I worked for a French company while over there, and it was common knowledge among my colleagues that the French Govt was heavily arming Iraq with everything it wanted - in return for which the French secured extrememly lucrative contracts. In fact, you could almost tell by just the size and number of projects being awarded, which country was giving Saddam the most military assistance. In that respect, Saddam was pretty transparent about it. I'm aware of the Germans and the chemical materials link, but the US were minor players in terms of military hardware.

VEBott

Yep, JohnW, that's about it.

For the US involvement there's Howard Teicher testimony, which documents the extent of US sharing of satellite intelligence with Iraq. The US also facilitated third-party arms supplies and provided Saddam with billions of dollars of credits. America was clearly an Iraqi ally, but as you say, it was France that supplied most of the weapons.

The Russians were actually trying to win favour with the Iranians, so their arms embargo was more than just a facade, and Britain did restrict weapons sales, although there were a variety of fiddles whereby before, during and after the war, aircraft, sophisticated machine tools, electronic communications kit and transport equipment ended up in Iraq.

As an investor in BAE, I don't really have a problem with all this. I just object to either side of any argument claiming to have all the saints and no sinners.