And still western 'liberals' support these people

Victoria

To hear of this story Melanie is heartbreaking. May God be with them.

However, the media also fails to report the countless numbers of attacks again Palestinian families inflicted by the Israeli Defence Forces. I am afraid atrocities happen on both sides.

This can only be solved with the creation of an independent State of Palestine - who could hold these people to justice.

Yisrael Medad

The Fogel family has released graphic photgraphs of their murdered family members.

http://bit.ly/gno3Xq

Miv Tucker

The BBC report refers merely to these settlers having been "killed", and a Palestinian "killer". Nowhere is the word "murder" or "murderer" used.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-12721170

Pete

Sorry but it's give and take. The settlements in Itamar are illegal. The Palestinians see themselves as being in a war against invasion and extinction. Of course they're gonna adopt militant tactics when they are left with no other choice. Especially when Yitzhak Shapira, a settler in the area is publicly calling for the murder of all non jews.

Of course everyone wishes this could be sorted out peacefully, but it's a bit rich for the Israelis to be crying wolf when they are doing everything they can to provoke the wolf. You may call these Palestinians terrorists and murderers, which in this confrontation no doubt they are, but Israel has no moral high ground to stand on and it is sickening when people pretend that it does. Terrorism or Freedom Fighting. Depends which side of the 30 ft apartheid based wall you're standing on.

It recently came out that the Palestinian authority had offered practically everything to sue for peace, things that would have had them branded as traitors to sue for peace. And Israel rejected every single thing. Israel does not want peace. Never has wanted peace. It wants to be seen as the eternal victim so that the atrocities it carries out in the name of 'defence' can be justified. And then of course, it rolls out the "Neo Nazi" tag for any one prepared to make a criticism. Sorry Miss Phillips but your argument is made of straw and the country you seek to defend should be up in the ICC for war crimes. Maybe when these have been atoned for, will Israel have the right to call murderers, those who are fighting an occupying force.

I don't agree with the tactics used, but when every other avenue, including suing for peace, has failed, what the hell else do these illegal Settlers expect to happen? Cornered lions do not just lie down and die.

Adam B.

Victoria, the killer came from Fatah - the so-called "moderate" terror organization which is the Palestinian Authority, led by the Holocaust denier, Mahmoud Abbas - who, if I understand correctly, has so far said nothing of this attack.

It is perverse in the extreme (in fact it is morally repugnant) to equate, as you do here, the deliberate murder of children and civilians, with the actions of the IDF, who do not target children or civilians. Whilst it is indeed an absolute tragedy that Palestinian civilians are killed in operations rooting out terror groups which operate within their own civilian population centres, you must surely see the difference between actively targeting civilians, as done by the Palestinian terror groups Fatah and Hamas, and the targeting of terrorists which tragically results in the deaths of civilians. It happens in every war, including those conducted by British forces.

Would you claim that the 7/7 bombings, which were aimed at civilians, are the same as the actions of the British army? Would you really make that moral equivalence?

Adam B.

Victoria, as part of the prisoner exchange following the Second Lebanon War (for which Israel exchanged Hizbollah terrorists for the bodies of two murdered soldiers - soldiers who had been captured alive by Hizbollah), Israel released, amongst others, Samir Kuntar. In the late 70's, Mr Kuntar entered into Israel from Lebanon, broke into a family's house, and took a father and daughter aged 3 outside to the beach at gunpoint. There, he drowned the father in front of the girl, then smashed her head against a rock, killing her. He then re-eneterd the house, where the mother and a baby were hiding in a cupboard. He murederd a policeman who was investigating the break-in, then left - but not before the mother had accidentally suffocated her own daughter trying to stifle her cries from the prowling Mr Kuntar.

Kuntar received a hero's welcome in Lebanon by thousands of adoring supporters of Hizbollah, (AlJazeera even laid on a banquet in his honour).

Such celebrations at the deliberate deaths of innocents one does not find in Israel. Indeed, there is often much criticism and soul-searching in Israel.

One does find it - repeatedly - from Fatah, Hamas and Hizbollah.

Does that difference tell you something?

Adam B.

Right on cue, there have been celebrations on the streets of Rafah in Gaza. Hamas have called it "heroic".

Sickening.

Truthtriumphs

Victoria.

"However, the media also fails to report the countless numbers of attacks against Palestinian families inflicted by the Israeli Defence Forces. I am afraid atrocities happen on both sides."

An obscene moral equivalence, based on an outrageous lie.
For people like you, Jews are supposed to lie down and be slaughtered, and not invoke their right to self-defence.

Name one incident, just one, when the IDF has ever targeted innocent civilians, as opposed to civilians being killed as unfortunate victims of defensive actions.

When I read a comment such as yours,(and spare us your nauseating crocodile tears for the Jewish victims of this latest atrocity), I remember those 23 courageous IDF soldiers who sacrificed their lives going into the booby-trapped Jenin on foot, to hunt down the terrorists who butchered scores of Israeli innocents---deliberately.
Their lives could have been saved if Israel had attacked from the air, like every other country would have done under similar circumstances, but Israel was mindful of the possible loss of life of Palestinian civilians, and so sacrificed their own.
What a waste!

As to your disingenuous suggestion that any Palestinian state would hold murderers of Jews to justice, I think not.
Palestinian police armed with weapons generously donated to them by the Jewish state, have, in the past, turned their guns on to their Jewish victims, without provocation, in one instance, colleagues on a joint patrol.
What evidence do you have that a Palestinian state would be the panacea, and why has there never been one in the 2,000 years since the Romans destroyed the Jewish Temple in the Holy land?
I know.... I think you do too!

dave

To have someone defend the killing of children in their sleep because their parents decided to live 'illegally" is whacko. Could go more into the insane double standard but not worth it.

Mark2

"Maybe when these have been atoned for, will Israel have the right to call murderers, those who are fighting an occupying force."

I wonder what kind of moral cesspit does someone live in who call's innocent children an "occupying force"

Truthtriumphs

Pete
March 12th, 2011 10:59pm

"Sorry but it's give and take. The settlements in Itamar are illegal"

A lie!

"Especially when Yitzhak Shapira, a settler in the area is publicly calling for the murder of all non jews".

Another lie!

"Depends which side of the 30 ft apartheid based wall you're standing on".

Yet another lie!

"It recently came out that the Palestinian authority had offered practically everything to sue for peace, things that would have had them branded as traitors to sue for peace. And Israel rejected every single thing. Israel does not want peace. Never has wanted peace. It wants to be seen as the eternal victim so that the atrocities it carries out in the name of 'defence' can be justified."

A collection of obscene lies!

Indeed, worse than the vitriol poured on the heads of the unfortunate Jews in the 1930s by the European anti-semites, for they were open about their Jew-hatred.
You hide behind a camouflage of concern for the Palestinians.

Shame on you!

Victoria

Adam B.

"Whilst it is indeed an absolute tragedy that Palestinian civilians are killed in operations rooting out terror groups which operate within their own civilian population centres, you must surely see the difference between actively targeting civilians, as done by the Palestinian terror groups Fatah and Hamas, and the targeting of terrorists which tragically results in the deaths of civilians."

You and I clearly differ on one thing fundamentally. Whether it is the killing of innocent civilians in an unjust war in Iraq or the killing of innocent Palestinians as a means of 'rooting-out' terrorism, or the killing of innocent Israeli children. They are lives, people, human beings.

I dont think you are in a position at all to talk about moral standards when you essentially take killing one group of people as being less tragic than another for whatever reason.

It is ironic that you say the IDF do not 'target' children or civilians, yet there are countless occasions when they have killed them. Intention does not excuse or justify a crime that has been committed. Israel should be held accountable to this by international law. In reality its credibility is already diminishing as a result of its own actions.

So long as Israel considers one human life more valuable than another, as you do, it will never have peace. Violence breeds violence. That goes for both sides.

And in answer to your last question, yes I do see them in moral equivalence. Through both causes, people died, people who most probably had no say in the matter. One (7/7) was committed against extremists whose motivations have little to do with the teachings of Islam and more about fanaticism; the other (British army) is to do with running an illegal war, using innocent people to kill more innocent people.

And please don't retort with mambo-jambo, as I suspect you will, about 'war is a part of life' la-di-da and the perils of war are imbedded in human civilization etc. I try respectfully from both sides, but the more I do the more I have realized how unfair Israel's treatment of Palestinians is. What is even more riling, is that most orthodox Jews are AGAINST the settlements.

This will all go away if Israel stopped being so selfish and allowed the Palestinians a state that they deserve. I don't think they can avoid it much longer.

Victoria

Pete. Well said my friend. I wan to say thank you for speaking up for TRUTH against this two-sided, very difficult battle of loyalty.

Victoria

@Pete:

"It is perverse in the extreme (in fact it is morally repugnant) to equate, as you do here, the deliberate murder of children and civilians, with the actions of the IDF."

Yes you are right on this Pete! You cannot equate them in moral terms because the IDF kills women and children 'unintentionally' - and then considers it justified. Then they cry wolf when the relatives of those children come back for revenge. No, one cannot equate any of these in 'moral' terms.

Ruth

The so-called apartheid wall was built after hundreds of Israelis were murdered during the period after an interim agreement was signed with our neighbours. One of the victims was the daughter of our neighbours, a beautiful young girl of 15 who was blown up in Dizengoff Centre, Tel-Aviv. She wasn't living in a settlement, she was just going out with her friends during the Purim holiday. In other words the Fogel Family were killed because it was easier for the terrorists to reach them. The extremists do not differentiate between Palestine and Israel within the Green Line. For them we are all legimitate targets and if the wall didn't exist, they would be happily blowing up innocents within Israel just like in Pakistan. If Muslims can murder Muslims so easily then they obviously don't have any qualms about killing Jews.

I imagine that if hundreds of UK citizens were murdered by terrorists, the British government would also take extreme measures to stop them. In fact why is the British army in Afghanistan if not to stop Islamic extremism. I haven't noticed a lot of demonstrations against this war and the fact that an unknown number of innocents are being murdered by the US and UK armies without much comment in the Western press.

Like the majority of Israelis I long for an agreement with our neighbours. I did not vote for the current government and do not agree with many of their policies. I also know that there are Palestinians who oppose these acts of violence in fact several of them were interviewed on a radio programme today in which they spoke out against the extremists.

But how do we reach an agreement? Om 2005 Israel withdrew from Gaza unilaterally and was subsequently attacked by thousands of rockets on civilian towns and villages. That cannot happen again. Any agreement with the Palestinian authority must ensure our security as well as the withdrawal of most of the settlements. If the Palestinians want their own country then they should be willing to sit down and negotiate for it. How many chances are they willing to miss? How many times has a settlement nearly been reached only to see their leadership back down because of pressure from extremist groups and countries. They are waiting to be given everything "on a plate" without being willing to compromise at all. The Palestinians have been used as pawns by their leaders for over 60 years. If they really wanted their own country then they could have had it a long time ago. But are they willing to compromise? Of course not, especially since they can still butcher Jewish children without comment in the "enlightened" Western press.

Someone commented that we like to consider ourselves "victims". Well I cannot think of another country whose existence is constantly questioned by so many and not just by the Islamic fundamentalists. How would the UK act if so many had been murdered? And do you really believe that things will change if there is an agreement?

AY

Victoria

There are different things "on both sides". Satanic atrocities and terrorism on one side, and self-defence on the other.

What happened yesterday in Itamar, is exactly what moral imbeciles and terrorist enablers in the West mean by "liberating Palestine", - if anyone still has any doubts.

Paul Freeman

Pete, your hate-filled tripe is easily revealed for what it is.

You write, "Israel does not want peace. Never has wanted peace."

Really? And what about 1937, 1947, 2001 and 2008? What about the peace treaty with Egypt in 1979, the peace treaty with Jordan in 1994? What about the withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000 and the disengagement from Gaza in 2005?

And given that each time Israel has offered peace the characteristic response of the Palestinians has been violence (they don’t of course need such a “provocation” to be violent: the Palestinians incite against Israel and Jews daily anyway) what is your evidence that they want peace? An uncorroborated document produced by the Israel-hating machine known as Al-Jazeera?

Is that it?

Your "30ft apartheid based wall" is a similar piece of bigotry and nonsense.

The security barrier was put up in response to Palestinian attacks on Israelis. It has had the effect of reducing those attacks by over 90%.

For anyone whose common sense was not drowned out by hatred it would be a no-brainer that the way to keep out murderers is to put up a barrier. But then it's very telling too that you choose to relate such an act of self-defense to apartheid South Africa. And it's ironic of course, because the ethnic cleansing of Jews from the state they aspire to is a central demand of the Palestinians whose cause you support.

But then Jew-haters have always accused Jews of doing to others what they want to do to Jews. It makes them feel better about themselves. Which is why you write what you do.

Hanna

Victoria
"This can only be solved with the creation of an independent State of Palestine - who could hold these people to justice."

You have hit the nail on the head - except that you have the nail (and hammer) upside down.

The bottom line of Israel's situation is that any Arab can murder any Israeli or Jew and no
Arab Authority or State will hold him to account. This was true before the establishment of Israel and continues to this day. There may be some arrangements with Jordan and Egypt in the signed treaties, but socially the murderer will be considered a hero, not a criminal.

Pete
"Terrorism or Freedom Fighting.
Depends which side of the 30 ft
apartheid based wall you're standing on."

Even if a two-state solution is arrived at and a peace treaty is signed with a Palestinian state, there would have to be a very effective wall protecting Israel from infiltrators bent on murder.
So people like Pete should rejoice at the wall. No way could an Israeli Government expose its people to such an hostile state on its doorstep,
without a wall.

C.Gee

Pete:

The murderer was a "cornered lion" was he, when he killed children?

The children were an "occupying force" were they?

But you are a big picture sort of guy. The slaughter of a few children must be understood in context: the great, good fight for clearing Palestine of Jews.

I think we all know the apt tag for that - but no need for the "neo".

elixelx

So, Pete @10.59! Would you go after these "Freedom Fighters" simply wanting to free "their" land from the depradations of those animals aged 2 and below (next generation of beasts, perhaps?)
And what would you do if you caught them? After all their "resistance" is perfectly justifiable in your eyes!
And what will you say when they are caught and imprisoned for life, their families disinterred and made homeless, their houses torn down, and their properties confiscated? Disproportionate, perhaps?
But you yourself have called these murderers "wolves". Are you proposing that marauding wolves be allowed to roam free? After all even wolves are allowed to protect "their territory!"
These murderers WILL be caught; their lives and those of their families WILL be destroyed, as they destroyed an entire family;
the only difference is that THEY ARE REJOICING NOW, and will be rejoicing to be considered martyrs later. Their wives and children will receive state pensions for their "sacrifice". We, here in Israel, on the other hand, will be mourning for two families! Ours and theirs!
You should mourn too, Pete! After your rejoicing!

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Victoria: "This can only be solved with the creation of an independent State of Palestine - who could hold these people to justice."

What on earth does this twaddle mean? can you translate, without rhetoric, please...

Pastafajoule twitter

When does "Never Again" applies?

moise pippic

So according to Pete "its give and take. The settlements in Itamar are illegal. The Palestinians see themselves as being in a war against invasion and extinction."
How sre Palestinian Arabs in a war against extinction when their numbers have increasesd from about 1 million in 1948 to about 8 million today??

Vince Whirlwind

You concentrate on the deaths of 3 Jewish children.

For every Jewish child killed in Israel, 5 or 6 Palestinian children are killed.

But we never see this type of outrage when it is the Palestinian children dying.

Joshua

Victoria writes:

"This can only be solved with the creation of an independent State of Palestine - who could hold these people to justice."

Europe is full of independent states and yet most people who participated in the genocide of the Jews of Europe got off scot-free. Nor have those independent states for the most part done much of anything to restore the vast amount of property which was stolen from the Jews who were murdered by the Nazis and their innumerable allies and collaborators. Justice for Jews? Nah.

Dan Silver

Very well written and stated. Thank you.

angelos ts

This atrocity just shows how western liberals are complicit in this type of crime. The blame is squarely on western liberals shoulders. We see similar acts of violence in South Africa, there, liberals again turn a blind eye. We deserve more than what liberals give or propose. Was it not Socrates (possible correction here) who stated 'Give a man too much democracy and he'll hang himself'?

Truthtriumphs

Victoria.

"So long as Israel considers one human life more valuable than another, as you do, it will never have peace. Violence breeds violence. That goes for both sides.
And in answer to your last question, yes I do see them in moral equivalence".

The problem here is that your gross ignorance breeds your gross bigotry.

Have you never heard Hamas etc. proclaim proudly:--
"We love death like you love life?"

So when they deliberately use their children as human shields, and then fire rockets from hospitals, schools etc. to cause as many civilian deaths on their own side as possible, for the propaganda value, so that people like you can spout anti-Jewish hatred, that's OK, is it?

Truthtriumphs

Victoria.

"Israel should be held
accountable to this by international law".

Does it give you a frisson of self-importance to invoke international law?

Invariably, those, like you, who quote it as a cover for their lies, are ignorant of it!

Truthtriumphs

Victoria.

"What is even more riling, is that most orthodox Jews are AGAINST the settlements".

Is that so?
Maybe in your parallel universe!

Give evidence, otherwise you will be ridiculed.

Truthtriumphs

Victoria.

"I try respectfully from both sides, but the more I do the more I have realized how unfair Israel's treatment of Palestinians is."

Which is why Palestinians villages that are able to,are DESPERATE to stay under Israeli jurisdiction, and they have made their feelings plain.

Veracity

Just where is this 30 foot apartheid wall? I have been to find it . 95% of the Yasser Arafat barrier is a fence with electronic sensors . Called the Arafat barrier because for the majority of Israel's existence Israelis and Palestinians moved freely bertween their two areas as we Welsh do into England and vice versa. It was only when Arafat unleashed the suicide bombers that this fence became necessary. In Israel Jews and Arabs live and work side by side , in hospitals and universities , in the Foreign Ministry . Apartheid ? Don't be silly.

Herzen

Does no-one here keep a tally of IDF killings and settler violence?

Truthtriumphs

Victoria.

"This will all go away if Israel stopped being so selfish and allowed the Palestinians a state that they deserve. I don't think they can avoid it much longer".

They offered it many times---it was always refused, under some pretext.
As Azzam Tamimi,(he of Hamas) so eloquently put it:--
"We don't want another Islamic state---we have enough of those--we just don't want a Jewish state".
Isn't that your position?

And btw, you still haven't explained why there was NEVER a Palestinian state in the whole 2,000 year period when the Jews were not in control?

We're all waiting.

As a matter of interest, are you Victoria Brittain?

Tilly

Truthtriumphs:

Your moral compass is in such a mess, it's probably beyond repair. But you might try this as a remedial exercise:

If an Imam wrote a book stating it was permissible for Muslims to kill non-Muslim children either (a) on the assumption that they would grow up to become enemies of Palestine; (b) to put pressure on Jewish leaders; or (c) if these children were "in the way", would you not condemn the Imam in no uncertain terms?

Why, then, turn a blind eye to Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira who wrote exactly this with reference to non-Jewish children?

If that same Imam advocated killing all male Jews over the age of 13 and urged Hamas to use Israeli civilians as "human shields", would you not want him arrested, and preferably executed?

Again, why should Shapira not be held to account for urging precisely these measures with reference to Palestinians over 13 and Palestinian civilians?

I've got a horrible feeling you're going to argue that the Rabbi was justified because he was speaking from a "defensive" position ...

Well just bear in mind that's EXACTLY what a supporter of the evil Imam would say.

Chico

While the killing of children is obviously deplorable, posters on here condemning any attempts at a look at the greater picture show that for them, deep down, an Israeli life is worth more than a Palestinian one. To accuse people of being anti-semitic for stating the obvious fact that many more Palestinian children have been killed by Israeli forces than vice-versa, is etxreme hypocrisy.

Israel's treatment of Palestinians is nothing short of apartheid, so to play the race card as the victim is not only ridiculous from a neutral outsiders point of view, it also weakens the validity of the case against genuine anti-semitsim, which needless to say has no place in modern society.

Sabeeha

Oh please, let Israel stop playing the victim and acknowledge that they have killed millions of Palestinians. One just needs to look to the 2009 Gaza war. 13 Israelis were killed, while over 1000 Palestinians were killed, most innocent civilians. If you believe that Israel is truly the victim, you need to visit the refugee camps of Palestine and hear the stories first hand.

sleeping dolls

truthTriumphs: Your reference to Palestinians using their children as a human shield (the implication being that the IDF therefore has moral authority to murder them) is interesting. But vile. You refuse to condemn the killing of children unless it is your children. That's why nobody in this country takes your slightly insane ramblings seriously.

Harvey

Victoria and Pete

Just who or what is preventing the Palestinians from creating a homeland . The opportunity has been there ever since 1948 . Not satisfied with what they were ceded ,the Palestinians fought an existential war with the nascent Israeli state and lost . In the years 1948 to 1967 , a period when there was no occupation and no settlements the Palestinians again failed to declare their independent state on the very same piece of land we are now expected to believe is the limit of their demands. If that is the case now why was it not the case in those 20 or so intervening years and why the sudden Sea Change in attitude ?
Purely rhetorical as in reality there has been no change . Not my words but Hamas . Hamas reject any notion of a two state solution demanding instead an Islamic Waqf from the River to the Sea . The problem for the Palestinians is that the 6 Day War resulted in the loss of even more land .They now need to return to the original starting blocks which is what Abbas intends by stealth. Unfortunately for him no one is prepared to buy his snake oil. In this context Palestinian Authority offers are meaningless In the event of an Israeli withdrawl from the West Bank , the PA will be swept away by Hamas in weeks if not days just as they were in Gaza. This would effectively leave Iran and its hosts within a 15 minute drive from Tel Aviv.
In summary the settlements are a red herring . If there are one million Arab Israelis why should half a million Jews residing peacefully , contributing their taxes be a bar to the formation of a Palestinian state.
The problem is not the so called settlers . It is Palestinian intransigence ,hatred and their ultimate goal of achieving a Jew free land which prevents their declaring an independent state.
The Palestinians never cease to overplay their hand .like the guy in a casino asking for another card on 18 and then demanding his stake back when he draws the 6 of Spades.
That in essence is the Palestinian problem.

Ben

I completely agree. If the same thing had happened in reverse in the Gaza strip perhaps then it would have made far more than the one headline for 12 hours on CNN and BBC (online). It is high time the world stopped believeing the Palestinians to be so hard done by when the majority of attacks which befall them are responses to palestinian attacks on Israela and Israelies.

Barak From a white hose

if someone has any doubts, please read
http://www.palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157
to find the true nature of PA "peace seeking".

Truthtriumphs

Tilly
March 13th, 2011 11:00am
Truthtriumphs:

"Your moral compass is in such a mess, it's probably beyond repair. But you might try this as a remedial exercise:

If an Imam wrote a book stating it was permissible for Muslims to kill non-Muslim children either (a) on the assumption that they would grow up to become enemies of Palestine; (b) to put pressure on Jewish leaders; or (c) if these children were "in the way", would you not condemn the Imam in no uncertain terms?

Why, then, turn a blind eye to Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira who wrote exactly this with reference to non-Jewish children?"

Your comprehension skills are wanting!
I have not seen any such quote by said rabbi, but perhaps you can quore chapter and verse,IN CONTEXT?
I have never excused such comments--- I merely questioned whether it was said in the way described.

And, btw, it's the oldest trick to take a quote from a renegade crackpot, and project it as the the established position of the Israeli government, or mainstream.
Israel is a democracy, remember, which allows for freedom of speech, as does the UK--- proof of which are the vile comments and hatred masquerading as the truth on blogs such as this.

Now here's a bit of homework for you----have a look at the media output and school and university material regularly pumped out by the OFFICIAl PA, and I think you'll find its anti-Jewish hatred is even worse than that produced by Nazi Germany in its heyday.

Carl

Truthtriumphs is clearly blind to the constant Israeli attacks on unarmed Palestinians. Remember Mohammed Al Dura, the poor child who was shot by the IDF even as his father tried to shelter him?

Julian

I got no further than your quote:

'Thus Israelis living on land to which they are legally entitled are dehumanised'

Sorry - you must be a zionist right? As they are the only people on this planet that believe they are legally living on that land.

Debbie

Pete: "Of course they're gonna adopt militant tactics" - I did not know that stabbing a three month old baby girl was called a militant tactic - how silly of me.

Anna

I am sorry to you Pete who is told you that our ITAMAR town is illegal? Go to College, brother , and learn something - geography for example

zeitgoose

@Pete

a breathtaking inversion indeed. the threat of invasion and extinction faced by the jews and israelis has never applied to the palestinians.

they do have other choices including confronting iran and syria and those within their own ranks who are committed to the annihilation of jews and the destruction of Israel on principle.

the mad rabbi you quote has not called publicly for the murder of all non jews. he was arrested for incitement by the israeli authorities for suggesting in a book that jews had a right to kill non jews who threatened israel. one mad rabbi does not a national cause make.

it is clear where you are coming from when you say that the only thing you diagree with are the tactics and then justify the murder of sleeping babies.

the attempt to negotiate a land for peace deal has been going on for over 20 years and has involved people of good faith on both sides. It is an extremely complex issue fraught with difficulty not least the attempts to stop it in its tracks by violence of the kind you endorse.

Zeilig

Carl cites the Al Dura case which has been proven to be a lie like most of the Arabs' claims.
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_article=855&x_context=3
Give me a break!

zeitgoose

sleeping dolls

wrong there doll. the palestinians get leverage among jew haters in this country by causing the deaths of their own children by using them as shields.

@carl

the Al dura killing has been proved in a european court to have been carried out by palestinians. As long as these PR excercises gain traction with people like you (who could easily check them) the more such PR excercises will bw carried out.

@victoria

when will you realise that endorsing the actions of Hamas, Fatah, Iran, Syria, etc, just means more suffering for the palestinians?

you guys are free to support the destruction of israel. why not come clean and declare that you will support it to the last palestinian?

Carl

And Netanyanu swiftly exploits these murders to "authorise" a further 500 settlement homes. Angela Merkel was right about him when she said "You have done nothing to advance the peace process".

Truthtriumphs

Carl
March 13th, 2011 11:45am
"Truthtriumphs is clearly blind to the constant Israeli attacks on unarmed Palestinians. Remember Mohammed Al Dura, the poor child who was shot by the IDF even as his father tried to shelter him?"

A proven fake!
Proven by a French court of law which ordered the rushes that France2 were holding back to be produced by the court.

In it , you can clearly see the boy lifting his arm after he was supposedly shot.
Further, ballistic experts gave evidence in the court that the bullets----aimed at the wall above Dura, could not have come from the Israeli side.

Now why do you think that Charles Enderlin and France 2 refused to hand over the rushes, until ordered to by the French court?
What did they have to hide?
That little bit of fakery cost more than 1,000 Jewish lives in the Intifada it was calculated to initiate, but what do you care?
btw, I have seen the rushes.... have you?
Study the case, before you shoot your mouth off.

Groovy Times

I've just looked at the pictures of the murdered children. Shame on anyone who tries to sanitise such raw and shocking barbarity. To those like Phil, take a look and consider how morally degraded and lacking in compassion you have become in defending such cold-blooded criminality. That you take pride in your 'level-headed' analysis, devoid of any human feeling towards children lying murdered in their blood-soaked beds, is a reflection of your own depravity.

Helen

For all those who try to compare the IDF actions and the palestinians - you're a fool!
The IDF is trying to protect the Israeli citizens by rooting out the terrorism. They give a heads up to every home they know terrorists are residing before entering or shooting at it and than have a thorough investigation if anyone got hurt to see what could have been done differently. While the palestinians murder, by hand(!!!), sluther the throats of babies and than all of them celebrate the murders on the street.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71sVZPUflSk
Now try to lie to yourself again in thinking the palestinans are in search of peace!

Truthtriumphs

sleeping dolls
March 13th, 2011 11:21am
truthTriumphs:
"Your reference to Palestinians using their children as a human shield (the implication being that the IDF therefore has moral authority to murder them) is interesting. But vile. You refuse to condemn the killing of children unless it is your children"

Not at all.
Unfortunately, your warped perspective can easily be exposed for what it is.
The blame for the deaths, which I unreservedly condemn, is laid squarely on the shoulders of Hamas, whose war crimes include using children as human shields, hiding behing them to aim deliberately at Israeli children.... 2 war crimes...fighting from civilian areas, in civilian clothing.... another 2 war crimes.
Read the Geneva conventions on warfare.
Pay attention to the words of Coln. Richard Kemp---1st.commander of British troops in Afghanistan as to the ethics of the IDF.... I rather think he is in a better position than you to comment.

Your cheap, soap box throwaway lines are seen for what they are...hatred of Jewish survival!

Truthtriumphs

Carl
March 13th, 2011 1:10pm
"And Netanyanu swiftly exploits these murders to "authorise" a further 500 settlement homes".

When is a settlement not a settlement?
A. When it is anything other than Jewish.

Victoria

The right-wing pro-Israeli lobby will talk until they are blue in the face.
But whilst we are on the subject of Israel I'd kindly request that you think back to its creation, 60 years ago and how since then the Israeli government has gradually suppressed Palestinian people and taken over their land. The current land of 'Israel' looks nothing like the UN Partition, which shows how greedy Zionist Israel is.

Sorry but you cannot suffocate people and cry wolf when they retaliate. Israel was created through bloodshed and force. It will continue to do so until it stops taking innocent lives, destroying Palestinian homes and resources under the pretense of 'self-defence' and pretending to the rest of the world that they are above the law. If one acts with anger the other will respond with it. How stupid or morally defunct does one have to be?

Put yourselves in the shoes of people living in the West Bank, Palestine who daily are abused and tormented by Jewish settlers. Is THAT justified?

What worries me truly is the sheer number of people on here supporting Israel's actions. That to me shows a true degradation in moral integrity.

Actions speak louder than words. I doubt many of you would even bother to try and see it from the other side.

logdon

This says it all.

No excuses. No moral relativising. No equivocation. No straw man counters.

This is pure sadistic evil brought about by centuries of unmitigated Jew hatred amongst Muslims.

Now what?

carolineglick.com/e/2011/03/the-fogel-family-massacre.php

Victoria

Paul Freeman

"You write, "Israel does not want peace. Never has wanted peace."

Really? And what about 1937, 1947, 2001 and 2008? What about the peace treaty with Egypt in 1979, the peace treaty with Jordan in 1994? What about the withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000 and the disengagement from Gaza in 2005?"

All of these done reluctantly and under pressure from the US, which is arguable Israel's only true ally in the world. Israel DOES NOT peace. They want ALL the land. The above examples are of when Israel has complied just to look marginally progressive, but for Bibi's right- wing Likud party the intention is otherwise.

If they wanted peace, they'd stop illegally occupying Palestinian land and call it 'self-defence'. Do the Palestinians not have a right to self-Defence (in Israeli terminology, not that of the rest of the free world) too?

It makes me sick.

Victoria

@Hanna.

"This was true before the establishment of Israel and continues to this day. There may be some arrangements with Jordan and Egypt in the signed treaties, but socially the murderer will be considered a hero, not a criminal."

I understand. And is this not part of the problem? How would you seek to resolve this? Obliterate all Palestinians? Yes that'd do wonders for Israel's human rights record. Clearly you can see that the creation of a Palestinian state is the interests of Israel too.

And the Arabs in Palestine have long fought for their own self-determined state, even before Israel was created. After the Balfour Declaration they repeatedly tried to gain international recognition, but it was thrown in their faces.

If you told someone they should have a system where their people are accountable to law and then deny them the right to do this, you are being a hypocrite of the highest order. This is essentially what Israel has done and will continue to do.

Doug Santo

Another outstanding article.

"Thus the moral cesspool into which Britain’s intellectual elite has sunk."

This sums up the situation nicely. Replace "Britain's" with "America's left-leaning" and you have correctly characterized the situation in the US.

Doug Santo
Pasadena, CA

Raymond in DC

Carl those 500 homes authorized are all in major settlement blocks, which even the Palestinians know will never be ceded to a Palestinian state. As to Merkel's claim that Netanyahu "has done nothing to advance the peace process" only proves she has become a "useful idiot" for the Palestinian cause. It is the Palestinians that won't even sit down to negotiate. Even "moderate" Abbas, in the wake of the Palestinian Papers leaks, went into full denial mode, insisting they've made *no concessions* to Israel.

And apropos, Abbas "condemnation" of the murders in Itamar was the usual double-speak.

Augustus

How can one have a civilized discussion with such beings?
Is Israel supposed to live in
peace with such people, whose aim is the annihilation of every Jew, including children?
This proves that letting your guard down at the checkpoints only results in bloodbaths. There should be severe reprisals for this atrocity.

Victoria

John Roosevelt -

"Victoria: "This can only be solved with the creation of an independent State of Palestine - who could hold these people to justice."

What on earth does this twaddle mean? can you translate, without rhetoric, please..."

I don't speak the language of ignorance, but I will try.

A-state-for-the-Palestinians-as-assigned-by-international-law-and-the-UN-Partition-of-1948.

Is that better? If you still don't understand then I am sorry but I cannot help you.

Greg

Would it be wrong to say that the arabs are savage murderers as we witness now the "riots" and 10000s massacred around the world or its not politically correct to say?

Victoria

@Joshua.

"Europe is full of independent states and yet most people who participated in the genocide of the Jews of Europe got off scot-free. Nor have those independent states for the most part done much of anything to restore the vast amount of property which was stolen from the Jews who were murdered by the Nazis and their innumerable allies and collaborators. Justice for Jews? Nah."

Joshua, I thank you for your response to my post. I cannot begin to comment on the tragedies that occurred in Europe in WWII. The land stole from
Jews can understandably cause a great deal of upset to even today's generation. But does this make the stealing of land from people who had no part in these atrocities justified? How can the Jewish immigrants fleeing persecution in Europe do to someone else what they have had done to them? You'd think they would be better placed to understand that this just creates more anger and sadness for people all around.

I'd like to make something clear to people who have responded to me. Just because I criticize Britain doesn't mean I am anti-Church of England. Or just because I criticize Iran doesn't mean I am anti-Islam. Likewise, if I criticize Israel it doesn't mean I am criticizing Jews on the whole, who mostly I have an immense amount of respect for.

The actions of a nation cannot be allied with the wants of civilians. Not all of them in any case.

What is frustrating for a lot of people is that one cannot so much as say a single bad word against Israel or a good thing about Palestinians without the lobbyists jumping on with insulting comments and fight-backs. Everybody is entitled to see things from both sides - both Israeli and Palestinian - and make up their own minds. But don't shout just because they have an opinion that differs from yours. I thought Israel's greatest asset was that it is 'democratic'? Well, supposedly.

Victoria

C.Gee - I don't think your comment about Pete is fair. Just because he states an opinion that differs from yours he is a Nazi?

You cannot just change the meaning of words or terms to suit yourself. Honestly, how petty.

Victoria

Truth Triumphs -

I could go into your insane double standards but it's not worth it.

"So when they deliberately use their children as human shields, and then fire rockets from hospitals, schools etc. to cause as many civilian deaths on their own side as possible, for the propaganda value, so that people like you can spout anti-Jewish hatred, that's OK, is it?"

First, not anti-Jewish, but anti-Israel, which I proudly am and have a right to be. Just as you are anti-Palestine, or anti-human rights it seems.

My response to you is this. I don't distinguish a loss of an Israeli life any different to the loss of a Palestinian life. They are equally tragic, disgusting and unacceptable. No matter how much I do not like Israeli domestic policy, I will never condone death of innocents.

My interests lie in bringing the extremists on both sides to justice and in exploring how we can find a way for both sides to live in peace. I know one thing for sure though, peace will never come so long as Israel keeps building settlements.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Carl: "Angela Merkel was right about him when she said "You have done nothing to advance the peace process".

The day Angela Merkel advances anything of note, there may well be peace in the Middle East.

The settlements are red herring. Everyone who is the know knows that too well.

Denis

Tilly, You are right to condemn Rasbbi Shapira's call for the slaughter of non-Jews, but you are completely wrong in comparing him to a putative imam calling for the deaths of Jews. The fact you call this person an imam' indicates you know little of Islamic law. To issue a fatwa of this kind, he would have to be a mufti or, in Iran, a mujtahid, indicating that he had studied shari'a law and was acting and ruling on its basis. Modern shari'a is much like classical shari'a. It provides for the fighting of jihad and the suppression of Jews after conquest. Such a mufti would be in agreement with the vast majority of muftis round the world. Yitzhak Shapira, however, is so far out of line in his demand that he would be hard put to find a rabbi anywhere who would approve of his ruling. Please don't make arguments in this way. It doesn't advance your cause in any sense.

Victoria

@Truthtriumphs

"Victoria.

"Israel should be held
accountable to this by international law".

Does it give you a frisson of self-importance to invoke international law?

Invariably, those, like you, who quote it as a cover for their lies, are ignorant of it!"

How do you have any idea what I know about international law? Please don't take the intellectual high-ground to escape your own ignorance. If Israeli settlements were legal then why would the US step in and have to forcibly veto an UN Resolution signed by all 14 participating states declaring the settlements illegal?

Since you clearly think you have superior knowledge of international law, I'd be happy to hear you argue in favor of settlements. I doubt you will respond though because all I can see so far is hot air.

Victoria

Veracity:

"Just where is this 30 foot apartheid wall? I have been to find it . 95% of the Yasser Arafat barrier is a fence with electronic sensors . Called the Arafat barrier because for the majority of Israel's existence Israelis and Palestinians moved freely bertween their two areas as we Welsh do into England and vice versa. It was only when Arafat unleashed the suicide bombers that this fence became necessary. In Israel Jews and Arabs live and work side by side , in hospitals and universities , in the Foreign Ministry . Apartheid ? Don't be silly."

I think the large majority of Arabs and Jews just want to get on with their lives, working side-by-side.

Victoria

zeitgoose:

In the same way when will Israeli authorities realize that persecuting the many for the actions of a few will just fuel the likes of Hamas and Hezbollah?

Alistair

My assessment is that we have willingly forgotten some fundamentals of the situation. I'm not an expert by any means, but here's my bit:

We're all sorry when women and children - on either side - suffer in the conflict. But let's remember: Ordinary Palestinians - including (to my knowledge) youth, women, the elderly - democratically elected Hamas - not Fatar. They want militants - they want conflict; they don't want dialogue or peace. Remember - Hamas has never even acknowledged Israel's right to exist! Oh, but they have all the rights in the world. It is just - sadly - ridiculuosly laughable.

Edward in the USA

All the "progessive", leftist, socialist support of Islamist imperialism and terrorism reminds me of the socialist hitler/socialist stalin non-aggression pact of 1939, which lasted until hitler invaded stalins socialist soviet union.

Poland suffered under the socialist pact. Today Israel and the civlized West suffers under the socialist pact.

Case in point, the "compassionate" release of the bomber of Pan Am 103.

johan smit

If you are Jew you mourn,
if you are Palestinian you mourn,if you are human you mourn.It is the result of politicians and people who can't compromise.If you can't do this,you will have bloodshed.this is our tragedy as human beings...

Truthtriumphs

Sabeeha.

"One just needs to look to the 2009 Gaza war. 13 Israelis were killed, while over 1000 Palestinians were killed, most innocent civilians".

A bit out of date, aren't you?
I think if you did your homework,
you would find that even Hamas admitted that more than half of those killed were combatants, or.as they like to call them, freedom fighters.

You would also find that the huge disparity in the numbers might have something to do with the fact that Israel values life---all life, rather more than Hamas does.
"We love death more than you love life".
Doesn't it ring a bell somewhere?

@victoria

"What worries me truly is the sheer number of people on here supporting Israel's actions. That to me shows a true degradation in moral integrity.

Actions speak louder than words. I doubt many of you would even bother to try and see it from the other side."

you don't have to be blind to the fact that the palestinians got a raw deal or to support all the actions of the israelis in order to defend israel from people like you who seek to portray the actions of israelis as the source of palestinian suffering.

thre is substance in what the other side (the other side to you) are saying here. your only answer to their responses is to repeat the same one-sided view. Surely even you can see that your 'moral indignation' is hilariously hypocritical?

kenny komodo

Victoria: Please solve the following riddle:

Which activity do you think would bring about complete peace in the Middle East. The Israeli's put down their weapons and decide not to fight any longer....or....the Palestinians put down their weapons and decide not to fight any longer.

If you can solve the riddle then I believe that you have some balanced morality.

Jeremy

When something is so clearly wrong, you just have to say so, with no 'buts'.

The slashing of the throat of a baby in cold blood is evil.

Full stop.

and there are no buts....

RCE

Victoria @ 2:01

How on earth do you reconcile (in adjacent paragraphs) the strident assertion that those who support Israel "show a true degradation in moral integrity" with the suggestion that they should "try and see it from the other side"?

By stating that anyone who disagrees with you is inherently immoral, you are guilty of the same closed-minded bigotry of which you accuse them.

Grumpy true Zionist

i'm assuming by the clipped, mieliemouthed and general maniacal tone, of the defenders of this outrage (and also the fact that this is a uk based site) that many of these posters are uk citizens

whats truly nauseating for me, is that i shortly have to visit this cesspool of anti-semitism (in all its myriad guises) for a family event

no longer for me, the charm and exitement of the london i have always known (i lived there for three years as a young man), but more like a visit to a hostile envioroment, where part of the local populace has succumbed to a type of collective 'stockholm syndrome',where the captive sides with the capturer (the dhimmi/muslim pakistani scenario)

for these folk (you know who you are), you will guise your Jew hatred any which way...so that it appears, on reading many of these posts that you are putting forward a fairminded viewpoint...but scrape away the well mannerdely prose....and there it is...vile anti-semitism

my one and only little retort, when arriving at your immigration section, and being asked....'how long will you be staying sir' my reply will be short and not sweet....'just merely passing through bud'

and i'll definitely be taking my bucks back home with me

i also know from this weblog that not all you brits, play rollover and die, in the face of the islamic onslaught on your once fair isle...to you brave souls....chappeau

Edward in the USA

Victoria, since hamas is the "democratically" elected government of gaza (as democratic as the elections in the islamic entity of iran), then the actions of "the few" reflect the will of the people, unless you believe that hamas's grip on gaza is as weak as your grip on the truth.

Alex Bensky

Note the assumption that a future Palestinian state neither will nor should contain any Jews at all, whereas no respectable Israeli source calls for the expulsion of the Arabs who live in metropolitan Israel.

Others have dealt with Victoria's assertions perfectly well. I will confine myself to the observation that despite her claim, intention does indeed matter a great deal both in international and national law.

As to Israel's intentions during Operation Cast Lead, I refer anyone to Col. Richard Kemp's remarks (easily found by an internet search) regarding the lengths that Israel went to in order to minimize civilian casualties. I also mention that admission many months later from Hamas that indeed at least half of the casualties were what it terms "fighters." There are also any number of reports of people rushing to the roofs of buildings when they saw gunships or aircraft about to make a run, and the aircraft peeling off and giving the people time to evacuate the building. This does not bespeak the assumption that the Israelis are if anything egged on by the presence of civilians.

No one could claim that the Israelis are perfect; like any other group of people they don't always act as they should. But instances when they don't are brandished as proof that their country has to right to exist, whereas planned acts of savagery by their enemies, incited by their leaders and cheered by their populace, are explained away as just the natural outcome of frustration.

Oh, yes, when people are (or claim to be) hopeless and frustrated, what else can you expect other than bizarre and murderous acts? This explains the phenomenon of Tibetan terrorism.

Truthtriumphs

Victoria.

"What worries me truly is the sheer number of people on here supporting Israel's actions. That to me shows a true degradation in moral integrity."

I think you'll find that the degradation in moral integrity is all yours.

"Actions speak louder than words. I doubt many of you would even bother to try and see it from the other side."

Indeed they do!
I think you'll find, Victoria,
that people tend to flee FROM brutal, dictatorial regimes, TO humane decent countries, not the other way round.

That's why your lies and revisionism don't stack up.
As you must know, Israel has a refugee problem---- refugees from Muslim lands DESPERATE to enter Israel, whilst spurnimg all the world's 57 Islamic states.
It's why Darfurian refugees trek 1,000 miles over rough terrain, risking their lives when they reach the border with Egypt,where they are routinely shot at for the crime of wanting a better future.
It's why the Bedouin exploit and terrorise unfortunate black Africans who pay them to smuggle them across the border to Israel, and then rape, torture and imprison them....and yet they are undeterred, because they know Israel offers them a better future.
I have an idea, Victoria.
Why don't you stand at the border with your megaphone, and tell them what a terrible place Israel is.... it would be a great favour to Israel in their efforts to curb the inflow of refugees?

Now to help you with your shaky grasp of the historical events which ved to the RE_ESTABlISHMENT of the Jewish state, I will re-post an entry I put on the other day.
Do read it--- you will find it illuminating!

Natasha

To Victoria (and the other rabidly anti-Israel useful idiots on the left): You might try getting your talking points from other than the Guardian or the BBC.

You focus entirely and with blinders on Israel. What about the treatment of Palestinians at the hands of fellow Arabs in neighboring countries? Did you know that Jordan murdered 10,000 Palestinians in one month (Black September) -- far more than Israel's been blamed for. Lebanon denies them basic rights - no property ownership, no education for children. (http://www.digitaljournal.com/article/303613#ixzz1GUeGD9b8)

Yet you focus solely on Israel as evil in your response to the totally unforgivable and unjustifiable slaughter of the Fogel family, including a helpless 3-month-old baby! By doing so you are defending the sick and cowardly terrorists who committed this crime. It puts you in league with the entire lowlife population of Palestinians who celebrated this slaughter by passing out sweets. You are apologists for great evil, along with the MSM who ignores this atrocity. Shameful.

Ruth

Today three leading Palestinian newspapers have spoken out AGAINST the killing of the Fogel family. I think this is significant and shows that Abbas and his government are genuine in their desire to reach a settlement. After all Hamas is more dangerous to them than it is to us!

Having said that we should remember that the Palestinians cannot decide alone concerning their future. There will always be a higher level - Arab League, various Arab despot leaders, and, of course, the extremist groups who will object to any concession, to any attempt to reach an agreement. As someone has already noted - the extremists don't accept Israel within the Green Line and that is the basic issue.

Btw, there seems to be a serious misconception concerning the security wall. In most places along the Israeli border it is simply a fortified fence. The wall itself was built in an attempt to stop the bombers from entering Israel after the civilian bombing atrocities. I agree that it is hideous but it has cut back the attacks to almost nil during the past few years so that more than justifies its existence. Let's hope that in the future it can be dismantled!

I should also like to remind those who describe it as an "apartheid wall", which is it itself an insult to those who fought apartheid in South Africa, that security walls exist in many countries and information can easily be found on the net. Just a few: The Spanish government's electrified fortification against immigrants, the USA governments monstrous wall (Mexico), several walls constructed by Arab countries (security). Apparently no one has any problem with them or questions their right to construct them.

Chico

Victoria -

Very well said, on a number of your posts!!

Truthtriumphs

A special lesson to help the unfortunate Victoria through the fog of her own misconceptions.

1)Following WW1 and the defeat of the Turks, the Ottoman Empire which spanned the Middle East for 400 years, was divided up by the British and French, and new countries were created, namely Iraq (British jurisdiction),and Syria and lebanon (French jurisdiction).
The whole geographical area known as Palestine was designated to the Jews (British jurisdiction) in recognition of their historic connection to the land.
In 1922, Churchill awarded the land east of the Jordan river to the Hashemite dynasty, in recognition of the help it gave Britain defeating the Turks, and Abdullah became King of the newly created Trans-Jordan, which covered some 77% of historic Palestine.

In 1922, the 51 member states of The league of Nations unanimously ratified a document called "The Mandate for Palestine" which called for the Jewish national homeland to be RE-CREATED in Palestine in the area West of the Jordan river, and called for "close settlement" of this area by Jews, which also included Gaza and the Golan heights.
Jews were not allowed to settle on land east of the Jordan river.
The Arabs, in the main (most of whom were immigrants from Syria and Egypt) did not accept this and there were riots, and ethnic cleansing of Jews from areas such as Hebron in 1929.
btw, the Mandate document specified that there should be religious and civil rights for the non-Jews in the future Jewish state, but not political
rights.
When the league of Nations was superceded by the UN, the "Mandate for Palestine" was incorporated into Article 80 of the UN Charter, which, in the absence of any agreement to end hostilities, remains the legal status of the area to the present day.
There were many attempts to placate the Arabs, by whittling down the size of the future Jewish state, but were never accepted by them.
Finally, the UN, in 1947, proposed a partition of Palestine, giving the Jews a very small proportion of the original area.
The Jews accepted, reluctantly,
(Jerusalem was excluded), and the Arabs rejected.
It was put to a vote in the UN in November 1947, and passed.(Resolution 181)
In the following May, on declaration of statehood, 5 Arab armies attacked the fledgling state, but the new state survived (just!).
Then Trans-Jordan made a land-grab of the West Bank, and annexed it, in a move which was recognised only by Great Britain and Pakistan (but minus recognition of the annexation of Jerusalem).
It became Jordan.
Egypt illegally annexed Gaza and Syria, ditto the Golan.
In 1967, Israel again won a defensive war against the combined armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan, and by the time the ceasefire was called, had reached the Golan, the Jordan river and the Sinai peninsula up to the Nile.
Israel's offer to withdraw totally to the armistice lines of 1948 (the so-called Green line)in return for peace was rejected out of hand at the Arab summit at Khartoum, which issued a statement known as the 3 NOs... no peace, no negotiation, no recognition.
Subsequently, Egypt made peace, in return for the Sinai in its entirety.
Jordan made peace, but gave up all claims to the West Bank, which was never legally theirs.

2)The UN then passed Resolution 242, calling on Israel to withdraw from territories, deliberately omitting the definite article, in return for a cessation of hostilities from the Arab side, (which has never happened).
Israel started to re-settle some of the areas which had legally belonged to Jews before 1948, such as the Etzion bloc, near Jerusalem, for which Jews held the title deeds, and Hebron, in both instances from whence they had been driven out.
Interestingly, although the status of the WB remains legally part of the Jewish state, before any new settlement was formed, every government of whatever hue consulted with a specialist lawyer called Plia Albeck, to ensure that it was built on state land and not privately owned land.
She was an expert in the field and consulted British and Ottoman law before sanctioning the building of every new settlement.

3)There is also the legal precedent of land won in a victorious, defensive war.
In a landmark ruling, Judge Stephen Schwebel, one time head of the International Court of Justice, the court of the UN, ruled in 1970, that where a country had won territory in a defensive war, and that territory had previously been taken by force (ie, by Jordan), then the victor (ie.Israel) had the better title.
Indeed, following WW11, the Axis powers lost land that had been theirs, such as Germany losing the Sudetenland, and other lands which went to Poland.
There are many such examples, and there are never demands to return them.
The only exception seems to be Israel.

It's also worth remembering that the reason that East Jerusalem is often called Arab East Jerusalem, is because in 1948, the Jews were ethnically cleansed from there.
The only time during 2,000 years that there were no Jews in the old city of Jerusalem, was between 1948 and 1967.
The oldest and holiest Jewish cemetery on Mount of Olives is in East Jerusalem, (3,000 years old) as is the Western Wall, so to call new Jewish suburbs in East Jerusalem, settlements, is absurd, and designed to undermine Jewish legitimacy there.

The reason why Western and other powerful nations perpetuate the myth of illegal settlements, when they are no such thing, is because it suits them--- they need Arab oil and Arab/Muslim markets to trade with.
It's expediency.

4)The only people to have enjoyed sovereignty (countries called Judah and Israel)in the geographical area of Palestine were the Jews.
No independent country of Palestine ever existed--- neither was there ever a Palestinian people--- that is a myth.
The name "Palestine" was given by the Romans, when they were victorious against the Jews (AD 70),and wanted to obliterate the names of Israel and Judah forever.

Tilly

Truthtriumphs

If it's really important for you to check out Yitzhak Shapira at source (rather than settling for widely reported - and undisputed - excerpts from his book), I suggest you try the Elijah Interfaith Institute's website which provides a link to the original in Hebrew. (In English, its title is "The King's Torah", published in 2009.)

For Shapira's comments on killing Palestinians over 13, see Israeli press reports about his arrest for incitement, 2006.

But this is all rather by the way, I suspect: even if you find everything I've said pans out, you're already geared up to dismiss him as a "renegade crackpot" whose moral influence is of no account, while the rantings of every ISLAMIST crackpot can continue to be represented as a reflection of "mainstream" or "government" views - no matter what statements to the contrary might be issued.

Your immediate, reflexive, response to Pete when he first cited Shapira was "Another lie!" You clearly knew very little about the Rabbi, but were simply not prepared to countenance any suggestion that a Jew could seek to influence homicidal maniacs in the same way that a Muslim could.

Israelis were moral enough and intelligent enough to absorb free speech of Shapira's inflammatory sort; Muslims too sheeplike, ignorant and fanatical.

By persistently making dangerous idiots of an entire population, how easy it then is to strip them of humanity...

No wonder you find it impossible to understand why the bombing of Palestinian civilians might not be perceived by the victims as "unfortunate" and "defensive" but as murder no more, no less, than the murder of Israeli civilians. You can't for one moment put yourself in their shoes, and thus need never doubt the "mindlessness" of their responses.

The day you appreciate, deep down and viscerally, that the grief, fury and desire for retaliation which is currently engulfing Israel over the Fogel family murders exactly mirrors Palestinians' feelings in the wake of a bombing raid is the day you start making peace.

...

PS: If you genuinely want to evaluate Shapira's status, it's worth noting that "The King's Torah" is said to contain an inscribed endorsement by Rabbi Zalman Nechemia Goldberg, Chief Justice of the Rabbinical High Court in Jerusalem, and that Shapira's Od Yosef Hai yeshiva was being funded by the Ministry of Education to the tune of around one million shekels in 2006-7, the period surrounding his arrest.

Herzen

Snipers shooting children picking up scrap in Gaza has nothing to do with human shields. Missiles launched from the air, no doubt targetted at "terrorists", that kill women and children have nothing to do with human shields. International bodies investigating the Lebanon, the West Bank and Gaza have found little evidence of Hamas or Hizballah or anyone else using their people as human shields (and these anti-Israeli organizations include the US Army). Members of the IDF and the Israeli courts have of course recognized many instances of the IDF using Palestinians as human shields. So the cry of "Human shields" is humbug. Settlers beating and shooting Palestinians has nothing to do with human shields. This thread is hypocrisy. A baby dismembered by an exploding shell (manufactured in the US) is as much an atrocity as a baby stabbed.

Herzen

C. Gee
"But you are a big picture sort of guy. The slaughter of a few children must be understood in context" - I recall you taking the big picture on too many occasions for this to be acceptable comment.

Michael Montague

Not ME!!!!

Jan

@ Ruth

I'll answer you rather than to one of the pro-Israel-comments that are plainly hateful and dumb.

You say:

"Well I cannot think of another country whose existence is constantly questioned by so many and not just by the Islamic fundamentalists."

Actually I can think of one: Palestine. It has been proclaimed in the 80ies in its borders of '67 (and there will probably be another push this year). And certainly its existence as a state is much more questioned than that of Israel. Not only that: there are elements in the governing coalition in Israel that are against the idea of an independent Palestine at any time under any conditions. Just think what happened when elements in the Gaza unity goverment expressed the same position with regard to Israel's right to exist.

You ask: "How many chances [for peace] are they [the Palestinians] willing to miss?"

First of all there exists an peace offer encompassing vitually the whole Arab world based on the condition that the Palestinians get a state in its 1967 borders and other conditions regarding Palestinan refugees and Jerusalem are settled in a just way. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_Peace_Initiative

This offer has been made in 2002. There hasn't been an official Israeli response yet.

You say:

"They are waiting to be given everything "on a plate" without being willing to compromise at all."

If you take a look at a map you can see that even the palestinian land within the 1967 borders is quite small compared to all of Israel-Palestine where they used to live until they were evicted. It's also small if you compare the Jewish and Palestinian populations in Israel-Palestine. No wonder that the Palestinians don't want to see to much of that land given up in exchange for peace. Take a look at some maps to get an impression: http://www.regelsberger.at/images/privat_texte/Palestine_landloss.jpg
And I haven't mentioned yet that the settlements have been built preferably in places with better access to water than many Palestinians in the West Bank havehence giving the better land to the Jewish settlers.

Ruth, you are talking about palestinian willingness for peace and seem to ignore that since the start of the "peace process" in 1991 the number of Jewish settlers in the West bank has trippled. Now, there are so many settlements and settlers that it seems hard to imagine that any Israeli goverment could be willing and powerful enough to get them all back to Israel proper -- or just reach the withdrawel "from most settlements" as you demand. Still Israel continues to build.

You seem to be quite open and I appreciate it. But your comments on the situation still seem to reflect that your views may have been shaped, somewhat unbalanced by your own social background and affiliation.

Truthtriumphs

Victoria.

"How do you have any idea what I know about international law? Please don't take the intellectual high-ground to escape your own ignorance".

Answer:
A pretty good idea--- nothing!

"If Israeli settlements were legal then why would the US step in and have to forcibly veto an UN Resolution signed by all 14 participating states declaring the settlements illegal?"

Well, there's a surprise.
Could it be that there are 57 Muslim states with a vote, and all the countries voting for them because of their oil/markets for our goods....
and only one Jewish state?

The UN comprises largely thug states, for whom the rule of law is an alien concept.

Should have thought it's obvious.
Einstein you are not!

Oh, btw, are you Victoria Brittain, or do you just rabbit on like her?

Chico

Victoria -

Very well said, on a number of your posts. And congrats for having the tenacity to answer to your various critics - ranging from the rational to delusional paranoia - and for talking sense to these posters.

Alistair –
“I'm not an expert by any means, but here's my bit:

We're all sorry when women and children - on either side - suffer in the conflict. But let's remember: Ordinary Palestinians - including (to my knowledge) youth, women, the elderly - democratically elected Hamas - not Fatar. They want militants - they want conflict; they don't want dialogue or peace.”

You’re right, you’re not an expert. Hamas was elected in Gaza, not the West Bank, where the above attack took place. (The residents of Gaza having endured decades of ever-increasing daily oppression and humiliation, and then suffering a bombardment and invasion in which 1,500 men, women and children were killed, and for which the IDF has been accused of War Crimes).

And let’s not forget that the Israeli people have been recently democratically electing ever more hawkish right-wing governments whose stance on final status issues and whose policies make any progress for peace virtually impossible (without significant external pressure at least).

Edward in the USA

Speaking of body counts, which group in the UK has suffered more deaths and casualties?

Have more people died in the UK at the hands of Islamist terrorists (7/7/05, Yvonne Fletcher, Pan Am 103) or have more Muslims died at the hands of non-Asian Brits?

Isn't it a bit dishonest to classify Islamists in civilian clothing, with AK-47's, mortars, rockets, knives, as "civilians"?

Eric

Victoria,

The IDF doesn't target civilans. The murderous Palestinians do. They have just killed a whole family, and anti semites will claims it's the same as Israelis defending themselves.
Whatever the Palestinians are suffering through they brough upon themselves. They are not civilied, they never have been. The Israelis would be willing to live in peace, the Palestinians are unable to live in peace.
From the yearly riots in France, to honor killings in across the Western world, from christian killings in Egypt, and Hindu slaughering in Bangledash.

For any other religion or culture, mass murder is an aberation. For Islam, it IS part of the culture. If they should ever wipe out Israel, they will continue to slaughter everyone who isn't a muslim. They will merely spread out further into Afria, Asia, and the AMericas.

I completely understand how easy it is to have a simple childish moral equivilance outlook on things. But the real world is not kindergarten, and the Palestinians are not misunderstood outcasts.

Edward in the USA

Victoria, Herzen, Pete, have you taken the time to read the Hamas Charter if 1988, coincidentally the same year that Pan Am 103 was bombed?

For example Articles 17 and 22 of the Hamas Charter expresses hatred of Freemasons, Rotarians and Lions too.

Just who don't Islamists hate?

Zeitgoose

@tilly

the reason the mad rabbi's views are no mitigation - as Pete suggested - for baby murdering, is because israel's robust democracy is able to absorb "free speech of Shapira's inflammatory sort"

you seeking to establish a moral equivalence between the baby murderers and a society that has had to indict a mad preacher for suggesting that it is acceptable to murder non jews who threaten israel.

When challenged on this you accuse your challenger of "making dangerous idiots of an entire population" ... and 'stripping them of humanity'

Has anyone followed the rabbi's call (not a public call for murdering non jews indiscriminantly which is the lie Pete was caught in)

however, when the imam at prayers calls on his flock to go and do murder, those that can - they go and do it. It would still be inexcusable, when they were out murdering, to steal in and murder their babies.

One can completely agree with you that the grief, fury and desire for retaliation which is currently engulfing Israel over the Fogel family murders exactly mirrors Palestinians' feelings in the wake of a bombing raid.

But this sounds like just another call for blood and your suggestion that peace will not be possible until israelis are capable of compassion for palestinians is deplorable.

Worried

@Victoria: Your comments are out of order, and lies. It is interesting that every single person of any faith or nationality who visits Israel (including the English football team a year or two ago), returns with a very different perspective to that espoused by people of your ilk.

I'm willing to bet (correct me if I am wrong) that you are neither Israeli, Jewish, Arab, Pallestinian or have any other direct link to the subjects discussed on these forums. IE, you only receive your information from 3rd parties, such as propaganda web pages, the liberal media and/or a group of likeminded individuals who gain solace in their immovable but inacurate point of view.

Penny1

Because I give a damn about people, I consider myself a supporter of the Palestinians. That's because I care about the actual lives concerned. Far too many in the so-called pro-Palestinian camp see a 'cause' and one that must result in a victory over the Israelis - no matter what the cost. These are the types that regularly turn up to harass ordinary British women working in Ahava in London and their 'from the river to the sea' chants pretty much tells me that they have no interest in real people.

I also support Israel. This isn't a football match we're talking about where you take sides and cling on for grim death. On both sides there are REAL people - ordinary, everyday folk who have lives just like the rest of us. Or should have. A pro-Palestinian movement worth its salt should care about the ordinary people - not the scoring of points and this victory/defeat scenario.

I fail to see how you can support the Palestinians and ignore the root cause of their situation. These people are indoctrinated from cradle to grave. They are being robbed of everything you and I take for granted, because they are pawns in the larger Arab game. If you do not see this, then I would suggest you do not know all the facts.

You simply cannot say you support the Palestinians and overlook their education system and their TV programs which teach hatred of ALL Jews - not just in Israel - and hatred of the USA and the UK. Forget what this means for the Israelis - think about what it means for Palestinian children who will one day grow up with no aims, no ambitions, just a burning hatred of others. Think of what it would mean for your own children if they were being taught to hate black people, muslim people and every country in which they live. You'd pull them out of that school and report it to the police. But you excuse it when it involves Palestinian children. In my view, you are not seeing them as 'real' people; just a part of your 'cause'.

I have watched these programs and heard 12yr old girls being interviewed and asked whether they would prefer peace with Israel or to die shahida. Their answer was 'shahida'. They believe they will get an instant pass into Paradise because this life is meaningless. What is the alternative to Paradise? Possibly the adhab al-Qarb, the 'torments of the grave'. Before anyone accuses me of listening to mis-translations, I should explain that my husband is Egyptian and an Arabic speaker. Furthermore, there are several politicians who have tried to address this matter because, live in la-la land if you will, but if a peace deal was brokered tomorrow, a couple of signatures on the bottom of a document is not going to bring peace. The Palestinians must address the part their indoctrination plays in this, too.

I do not find the sight of 2yr olds dressed in military uniforms with mock suicide belts strapped around their middle a thing I can support under any circumstance. I do not find the glorification of terror and the hero-worship of those who blow themselves up to be something I would ever, ever want to see inflicted upon my children. It is unbearably sad and should not be supported. If I do not want this for my children, why should I brush it under the carpet when it is done to Palestinian children?

I do not want to see the Palestinians depending on aid. They should be encouraged to have ambition, to succeed, to peruse happiness. I cannot understand the Westerners who seek to keep them as victims.

Finally, the 'wall'. I've seen it - it's mostly fence and is one of 22 others around the world. It was erected after a horrific spate of suicide bombings the like of which we in the West cannot imagine. It is not an apartheid wall - if you visit Israel you will see that this accusation is really rather ridiculous. I use airlines and -as is the case for all of us - I am subjected to all manner of investigations because the reality of suicide bombers is sadly a fact of life these days. I don't accuse British Airways or Air France of 'apartheid' security systems, though.

The security barrier in Israel has saved lives - not least those of the young men and women who might otherwise have blown themselves up. It has saved lives and prevented resulting action by Israel. Isn't that a good thing?

Why are there calls for this wall to come down? It will undoubtedly cause more deaths on both sides. This is what I just don't get with so-called supporters of real people. They are apparently uncaring about the lives of all concerned. They seem to believe the Palestinians should physically fight on, whilst they themselves cheer them on from the comfort of a tiny island that has never experienced this on-going death and destruction.

Incidentally, I recently spoke to a pro-Palestinian supporter who wants the wall to come down. I asked him if he would be happy to see it removed, and then send his wife and children to live for a spell in Jerusalem. Needless to say he spluttered and danced around the question, but he could not give me a categorical and confident 'yes'. It's all very well to call for these things when you think they won't affect you, isn't it?

And look - Israel cannot be the 'evil' state that too many pro-Palestinians deem it to be. It has 1.5 million Arabs living within its borders and if it truly was an apartheid, nazi-like state then those 1.5 million would be breaking in through the wall to get to West Bank and the security around Gaza - not, as in some cases (most certainly the cases involving gay Palestinians) breaking out.

Truthtriumphs

Tilly
March 13th, 2011 4:28pm
Truthtriumphs

"If it's really important for you to check out Yitzhak Shapira at source (rather than settling for widely reported - and undisputed - excerpts from his book), I suggest you try the Elijah Interfaith Institute's website which provides a link to the original in Hebrew. (In English, its title is "The King's Torah", published in 2009.)"

I'm not falling for that cop-out.
You it was who made the accusation.
You, it will be, who will quote chapter and verse .
Otherwise, your accusations will be dismissed.

You seem to miss an essential point.
The official Israeli position is not that of the rabbi's.
The Israeli government/media/school curricula do not preach murder of Arabs, do not publish vile cartoons of Arabs, do not preach the demise of the numerous Arab states etc. etc.

Do you know that Egypt, a country officially at peace with Israel, is the biggest purveyor of the Protocols of the Elders of Zion?

All the media/ literature/ school curricula etc. are saturated with expicit Jew hatred on a scale surpassing even Nazi Germany, even in the "moderate" Arab states.

Israel is a democracy, where people enjoy freedom of speech.
I think you will find that even if said rabbi did say what you accuse him of (doubtful), his views carry no weight.

Your post is a deceitful piece of malicious propaganda.
It belongs in Room 101.

AF

Given the Palestinian state that it craves for,would it not be unlike Libya under Gadaffi.
Nice neighbours.

Daniel

Thank goodness your voice is heard Melanie, to add some balance to the distorted and duplicitous comments in the press and from those such as Pete below who, for example, fails to see the wrong in slitting a 3 month old baby's throat - 'give and take' he calls it. Further - i would be interested to hear what the PA did to sue for peace as that is absolute nonsense. Barak offered almost all the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza - what does Israel get? the Intifada - Israel gives back Gaza, what does it get? 3000 rockets raining down on Sderot.
I am not using the neo-nazi tag; rather you are what Lenin would call a 'useful idiot'. You are no different to those supposed intellectuals who sympathised with mass murdering regimes such as fascism or communism - but now it is extreme Islam. Grow up Pete.

Sergio I. N.

Great Jan, you are obviously congratulating Ruth for her intentions to learn on the subject but cannot help to say that her problem to understand your "truths" come form her being a Jew.
Pretty mature. I actually was willing to pay more attention to you, but you just betrayed yourself in that last sentence.
I won't bother to indicate where to go to learn other facts that may change your opinion, you are not open to change yourself. Pity, and shame.

Ruth

@Jan

I appreciate your courteous response to my comments. I realize that it can be hard to understand Israel's hardline actions in the context of the modern world, the tragedy of the Palestinians, kept as pawns by their leaders for over 60 years and the virulent pro Muslim PR campaigns which have successfully taken over every university and most of the media.

Believe me I question my beliefs nearly every day. I have gone from being very left-wing to centre in quite a short time and this happened because of the Palestinian responses and actions to genuine peace talks which were conducted by Rabin and others. When the Palestinian President, Arafat, choose war (Intifada) instead of continuing the talks I realized that perhaps my understanding of the Palestinian cause was misplaced. When he passed away and his widow fought with the Palestinian government over how much money she would receive in order to allow him to be buried (!) we could see very clearly just how corrupt he and his cronies had become. Mrs. Arafat, who spewed her hatred of Israel at every opportunity, became one of the richest women in Europe as a result of his death. Most of that money was donated by foreign countries wishing to help the Palestinians and instead it went to ensure her luxurious life-style. What has this to do with the subject - well a lot because during his Presidency he threw away any chance to reach a settlement.

Their actions caused a shockwave with those Israelis who had previously supported the peace movement wholeheartedly. Today many Israelis no longer believe that we can reach peace when the radical groups attack Abbas as a traitor.

In short - A settlement must ensure our security. How can this be done - I have no idea! Should we withdraw as we did from Gaza without an agreement? Are the pragmatic Palestinians able to guarantee a long-term peace treaty when they themselves are under siege from the Islamic extremists?

I have three adult children and four grandchildren. I want the little ones to grow up in peace and respect with our neighbours. As I said before I would support a withdrawal from the West Bank within the context of a settlement. I doubt if I will see it in my lifetime and I fear for my grandchildren. I understand that there are many Palestinian grandmothers who may share my feelings but do they accept our presence in this land?

Hewbroid

Worried

Of course people from the West feel at home in Israel, its a western country with a vibrant democracy, and all the rest of it. I think Victoria probably agrees with that. But that is not the whole story. Victoria is simply filling in some of the rest of the story. She seems to me ambivalent about Israel, as many of us (not here obviously) are, the tragic deaths of the Fogels notwithstanding.

Augustus

johan smit - However noble compromise may be as a human endeavour, it is very difficult to do so when dealing with fanatics or extremists who are after your blood. However, that is exactly what Prime Minister
Netanyahu is contemplating. He appears to be considering a phased programme towards a permanent Palestinian state by creating a provisional one, smaller than what the Palestinians demand, and with a
continued Israeli military presence for an unspecified period. This is a logical first step towards full independence.

Leonie

This article is just an exercise in propaganda. I have personally witnessed the terror tactics and vile attitudes of some of the extremist Israeli settlers based in the West Bank. They taunt, harrass and often assault Palestinians - all while IDF soliders watch on. Of course if a Palestinian dares to retaliate, the IDF then intervenes and starts using tear gas and bullets on the *Palestinian*. Westerners have now caught plenty of these attacks on camera so there's no denying it anymore. But do we hear about these constant attacks on Palestinians in the Western media? Do we hear about the fact that when a Palestinian is murdered by a settler, the chances of prosecution are next to nil? No. The hypocrisy is dumbfounding, not to mention sickening. Israel is now a nation steeped in racism and entrenched double standards - pretending otherwise destroys any credibility you might otherwise have had.

Zeilig

Leonie, would you please be kind enough to post the dates and places you claim to have witnessed these alleged atrocities. Thanks

tiki

How can we blame 'only the Arabs/Pals & Lefties, when not mentioning that the EU pays for the 'hate books in the Pal's schoolsystem. They, our double faced EU friends & NGO's who are so 'desperatly warning for not losing the momentum and continuation of the Peace Proces' are the first ones to blame!

To "kill a snake, you have to cut of it's head" .... to "stop the murder education you have to cut of it's finance".

Tony

I find it increasingly difficult to understand the logic of an argument that criticises Israel's continued need to defends itself from the continuous threat of anillation by islamists.As rightly stated Israel has repeatedly agreed to a 2 state solution. The fundamental problem lies in the teachings of the Koran and hadith which do not allow for any such agreement to be reached and are therefore in typical fashion twisted to appear as if Israel is intransigent and the palestinians victimised yet again. They are being victimised- by Hamas and fatah as a useful tool to continue to justify islamic terrorism in the middle east and rest of the world.
Britain and the rest of the western world needs to wake up and realise that if we do not support Israel as the only democracy in the middle east then it is only a matter of time before we completely capitulate to the advancing threat of islamist expansion and domination. Israel will continue to resist and fight with all its courage despite us. The Israelis are at the sharp end of war declared on them by the arab world for the last 60years plus and this conflict needs to be judged in that context.

Dave

" Thus Israelis living on land to which they are legally entitled are dehumanised"

To use your opinion about the main bone of contention in the whole thing as the basis for your entire article is lazy.
Not everyone agrees the settlements are legal; that's kinda what all the fuss is about.

Victoria

Truthtriumphs writes:

"Victoria.

"What is even more riling, is that most orthodox Jews are AGAINST the settlements".

Is that so?
Maybe in your parallel universe!

Give evidence, otherwise you will be ridiculed."

Haha. You are quite amusing really, your ignorance runs so deep.

Try these sites for a taste of evidence:

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/judaism_v_zionism.cfm

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org

http://www.aztlan.net - Jews Against Zionist Israel

Believe me my friend this is just the beginning. Many true Torah Jews do not accept the State of Israel. They were banished from Israel by God!

Don't be too surprised that not all Jews support Israel. If you are however, it would show sadly how very blind you are indeed to the 'truth'.

I'd changed your name for a start.

Augustus

Leonie - Yours is the kind of stuff that makes one physically
ill. Not one word of concern for
the Fogel family, just a biased agenda to pursue. Pathetic exaggerations that cheapen the impact of stories of real suffering. My thoughts and best wishes are with their next of kin and the appalling trauma they have suffered. One thing is for sure, the murderers won't
escape their just punishment.

Victoria

Alastair writes:

"My assessment is that we have willingly forgotten some fundamentals of the situation. I'm not an expert by any means, but here's my bit:

We're all sorry when women and children - on either side - suffer in the conflict. But let's remember: Ordinary Palestinians - including (to my knowledge) youth, women, the elderly - democratically elected Hamas - not Fatar. They want militants - they want conflict; they don't want dialogue or peace. Remember - Hamas has never even acknowledged Israel's right to exist! Oh, but they have all the rights in the world. It is just - sadly - ridiculuosly laughable."

I can see your point on this Alastair. If the Palestinians continue seeking to avenge the deaths if their loved ones and theft of their homes and land, they will never be peaceful. But the same could be said of Israelis n'est pas? Israel likes to pretend it wants peace, but continues to build Jewish-only (apartheid?) settlements of land given to the Palestinians in the 1948 Partition, making it 100% illegal.

Whilst I do appreciate your argument, I ask one thing of you. Stop what you are doing once you read this. Sit back, relax and think about how YOU would feel if someone you didn't know or never had ANY dealings with came, took you and your family outside, lined you up and shot you all till death (never forget Deir Yassin and the atrocities committed by the Irgun). Think how it would feel to be an neighbor of this person, who has done nothing to deserve it.

Sadly I think we sit here in the comfort of democratic England (or US, Europe, etc.) and preach the moral code, but in the end, where there is oppression there will be violence. The Palestinians would be more willing for peace if the Israelis offered concessions, but Netanyahu (netan fittingly in Arabic means 'stinky') and his cronies won't let this happen. How would YOU enact or initiate peace, as a Palestinian, when slowly, little-by-little, the people you are trying to make peace with are taking over your land?

I think some people (not necessarily you) are quick to make opinions, but often do not think through the practicalities. I guess that is normal to am extent, we all live such detached, objective lives away from the hardships in Israel and Palestine.

Jack R

Although I have no connection with Israel, I do strongly support that country.

It seems clear to me that the many surrounding Islamic countries opposed to Israel in the Middle East intend to wipe Israel off the map.

The political propaganda against Israel in much of the media, not only in Islamic countries, but also in th West, is immense. For example, the BBC's politically hostile output on Israel has to be monitored daily to fully understand the depth of that broadcaster's hatred.

I am not an Israeli, but it seems clear that it would reduce Israel's security to give up any land; giving up Gaza seems to have made for more hostility against Israel.

As for 'settlements', they were intended as Jewish settlements by the League of Nations. And Israel needs to control the 'West Bank' so as to defend the Jordan Valley.

But the irrational hysteria against Israel goes on.

Israel needs and deserves more supporters, not more enemies.

Laura

Victoria, there is no moral equivalence. The IDF doesn't purposely target civilians, they do not go into homes and slash the throats of infants. And a palestinian state would never punish these murderers. In fact palestinian society celebrates them by passing out candy and naming streets and schools after them. What world are you living in? Your comment exemplifies the morally bankrupt state of liberalism.

Tony

Dave,
Whilst you may feel my argument is lazy I have no intention of attempting to engage in an academic or intellectual debate just state facts as I see it and express my viewpoint in however basic a way limited time allows. The fact that there is disagreement on the legality of settlement is irrelevant in respect of the murders of 5 people in the settlements by a murderer who justifies his action by reference to his politico/ religious ideology and has his action publicly celebrated by other followers of the same ideology.If all settlements were vacated and palestinians given free reign to occupy the land this would not change the political ideology of Hamas, fatah or any other islamist group. Their fundamental aim is to wipe Israel off the map and kill every jew. Lazy intellectual process? no just stating common sense.

Joseph F. McNulty

No one will face facts, and I hesitate to say it myself, but the ONLY solution is for Isreal the expell ALL Arabs from the so-called West Bank. The truth is that the Islam is full of hatred for the Jews. You can see it in what the killers did. These people were not just killed; they were slaughter in the most horrible way to send the message that Jewish life is an affront to Arabs and Allah. The Jews, they belive, have no right to live. You are sending them to Hell when you kill them. Killing them has no more moral significance thay killing a bug. They are worse than the Nazis, who killed but took no glory in it. In fact, bloody Himmler expressed concern that the einsatzgruppen in Russia had difficult work to do that was depressing the troops (shooting Slavs and Jewish men, women, and children). This murder is human-skin-on-lampshades type stuff. The only answer is counterterror (slaugher of Palestinian families in revenge), which I do not favor, or saparation of the populations. Counterterror is unjust and would be an excuse for the West, including Obama, to impose a settlement or troops on Isreal to "protect" the "peaceful" Palestinians againt Jewish reprisals (againt acts perputrated by isolated extremeists, perhaps even Jewish provocateurs to blame Arabs).

Victoria

Denis -

"Tilly, You are right to condemn Rasbbi Shapira's call for the slaughter of non-Jews, but you are completely wrong in comparing him to a putative imam calling for the deaths of Jews. The fact you call this person an imam' indicates you know little of Islamic law. To issue a fatwa of this kind, he would have to be a mufti or, in Iran, a mujtahid, indicating that he had studied shari'a law and was acting and ruling on its basis. Modern shari'a is much like classical shari'a. It provides for the fighting of jihad and the suppression of Jews after conquest. Such a mufti would be in agreement with the vast majority of muftis round the world. Yitzhak Shapira, however, is so far out of line in his demand that he would be hard put to find a rabbi anywhere who would approve of his ruling. Please don't make arguments in this way. It doesn't advance your cause in any sense."

What on earth are you talking about? There has never been any public calling by an Imam or Sheikh for the killing of non-Muslims, or saying that killing Jews or Christians is justified. Really man, you know nothing about Islam. Your post implied that somehow the opinions of one Islamic leader must
necessarily represent the views of all, which is just plain ignorant. And far from the truth.

If you did hear of any Islamic teacher quoting such things, it would most probably be the media lying to fuel public opinion. The Quran in fact treats all Muslims, Jews and Christians equally as 'people of the book' and it does not condemn, under ANY circumstances, the killing of innocents. I say that as a Christian, having read te Quran.

Really, how can you even try and justify Rabbi Shapira's comments? Disgraceful.

Victoria

Kenny Komodo writes:

"Victoria: Please solve the following riddle:

Which activity do you think would bring about complete peace in the Middle East. The Israeli's put down their weapons and decide not to fight any longer....or....the Palestinians put down their weapons and decide not to fight any longer.

If you can solve the riddle then I believe that you have some balanced morality."

I'd love it if both of them put down their weapons and started talking about the future.

And 'balanced morality', what exactly does that mean? My moral compass is right on tack. By my own admittance I don't know it all and by grace of God I will learn and refine my opinions. I think you confused 'morality' with 'perspective'. I want to see the end to death and destruction on both sides. That is the only 'morality' that is relevant.

Mustapha Bunn

Penny 1 @ 7.22pm .... a well written viewpoint,thankyou.
As for 'Grumpy True Zionist' I'm surprised that with the huge chip about Britain that he carries about with him that he can force himself to visit the place.

Victoria

Laura -

"Victoria, there is no moral equivalence. The IDF doesn't purposely target civilians, they do not go into homes and slash the throats of infants. And a palestinian state would never punish these murderers. In fact palestinian society celebrates them by passing out candy and naming streets and schools after them. What world are you living in? Your comment exemplifies the morally bankrupt state of liberalism."

Haha. 'Morally bankrupt state of liberalism?' Laura I'd be inclined to perhaps agree with the notion that the Palestinians wouldn't condone such atrocities. But, wait, they have never had a state since 1948. HOW can you be so sure, with such very little evidence?

Scott

Vitoria, you pervert morality when your attempt to morally equivocate the MURDER of a family of 5 in their sleep with the collateral damage resulting from the IDF's attempts to provide security to Israeli citizens by apprehending Palestinian terrorists and murderers who illegally engage in warfare purposely hiding behind their own civilian population in order to induce the maximum civilian casualties. This is the game of the Palestinian terrorists in order to induce the bleeding hearts in the western world to sympathize with their cause. Victoria--you have been snookered BIG TIME!!

Victoria

Truthtriumphs -

I have stopped reading your posts now. I wouldnt waste your time anymore.

Adam B.

Victoria uses the argument that "they are all human beings", managing to achieve several deceptive objectives in one fell swoop:

1. The implication that I couldn't care less about Arab deaths.
2. That there is no such thing as casue and effect, or legitimate acts in warfare.
3. That the conflict can be reduced merely to casualty figures, and all context can thus be removed.

This is not only intellectually lazy, it is morally repugnant. It is the epitome of moral equivalency - it doesn't matter how it happens, it's only the end effect that matters.

Consequently, a terrorist who breaks into a family's house and deliberately murders children in their beds is no different from the soldier who is fighting terrorists who hide behind their own civilian population, thus resulting in the tragic deaths of innocents. The intention of the act no longer matters - the care of the soldier to avoid civilians versus the glee of the premeditated murderer is irrelevant in such a universe. Thus personal responsibility no longer matters either.

I note that Victoria studiously ignores this point. She also ignores my question as to whether she regards the British soldiers serving in Afghanistan as morally equivalent to the 7/7 suicide bombers. If not, what is the difference?

And a further point to ignore (it causes too much cognitive dissonance to be addressed) - why do Palestinians celebrate the murders of children, as seen on the streets of Rafah (Melanie has provided the photo above), whilst no such scenes are to be seen in Israel when Palestinians are killed in operations against terror groups (indeed, there invariably follows much soul searching and self-criticism). Victoria even questions the term "rooting out" terrorists.

Victoria, these were not the actions of a lone crazed individual. He was a member of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, part of the Fatah movement. This movement has buildings, bank accounts, funding (from our own EU), infrastructure, and an organized structure. It exists. And as such, it is completely legitimate for Israel to target it.

Please address the points put to you above.

Adam B.

Victoria, none of your links provide any evidence for your contention that most orthodox Jews oppose the settlements.

Would you care to retract that claim?

Adam B.

Victoria writes

"There has never been any public calling by an Imam or Sheikh for the killing of non-Muslims, or saying that killing Jews or Christians is justified. "

Er...yes there has. It was reported on a Dispatches programme here in the UK a couple of years ago (footage was supplied) - and it is routinely broadcast by our friends of the Palestinian Authority (broadcasting race hatred courtesy of funds from the EU taxpayer). You can even find these clips on Youtube.

Is this really the extent of your research?

David

No coverage at all you mean...I never saw one word of this on the bbc [small letters on purpose] ....but no suprise there....better to keep the drip drip message that the Jews are never the victim going to prevent the mantra from being blown out of the water. God bless those children, they never got a chnace to live.

Rose

This is an abomination committed by a savage. The forces which support and created this savage are pure evil

Scott

Pete, practically speaking everything you said has little basis in reality. For starters the so-called settlements are not illegal. No court or legal body has ever ruled as such. This is a 100% fictitious assertion based entirely on politics and not on law. International law holds the land as "disputed territory". Under such a designation that land might be returned under agreement by the disputing parties to the original party. However in this case, the original party in the conflict was Jordan (or Trans Jordan) which has legal waived their rights for grievance in this matter. By law the previous owner was the British who won this territory in conflict with the Ottoman empire. The British acceded all of their rights to the League of Nations, who gave the British a Mandate to set up a Jewish homeland in the territory. Subsequently the British handed their mandate off to the United Nations who voted to create a Jewish State in the territory. The vote included the suggestion of a partition of the territory for a 2nd Palestinian state (Jordan being the first). The suggestion for partition which was not legally binding was immediately accepted by the Jews and rejected by the Palestinians. Thus, by the refusal of the Palestinians to accept the partition they are not a legal party to the conflict in which a land resolution is required. In which case the land reverts back to the previous owner prior to the Ottomans who no longer exist which would be the Roman state which also no longer exists. So by international law the land would revert back to the Jews whom the land originally belonged.

As for the Jewish population in these disputed territories, they moved to the territories of their own free will and much of the land the settlements were built on was purchased dating back to the late 1800's. This is an important distinction because the applicable Geneva convention was specifically written to prevent wholesale transfer of populations and ethnic cleansing. But this isn't the case in the disputed territories. In fact, the forceful removal of Jews from this territory would be blatant violation of the Geneva Conventions which specifically prohibit this act.

As for Apartheid, the only Apartheid is the Arab Apartheid in which Abu Abbas refusing to let a single Jew live in the "Palestine" and in which the sale of land to a Jew is punishable by death which is often carried out against the accused by vigilante mobs without benefit of a trial. And while Palestinians are routinely brought into Israel for medical treatment (180,000 last year alone) at some of the best hospital in the world regardless of ability to pay, Palestinians in Arab countries are NOT given this same privilege. In fact an 11 year old Palestinian boy died in front of a hospital in Lebanon because the hospital refused him care. In the Arab world Palestinians are denied citizenship, the right to own land or the right to hand property down to their heirs.

As for what you refer to as the "Apartheid Wall" the only purpose of the protective fence (its not a wall--its a fence which runs 472 miles with gates which in some vitally strategic sections was extended to a 26 ft tall concrete barrier) is to prevent would be murderers from savagely murdering Jews in their sleep as happened in this incident. Quoting a recent op-ed by Assaf Wohl "Let's put ideology aside for a moment and only talk numbers. Before the fence was built, premeditated acts of horror were perpetrated within Israel regularly. In 2002 alone, some 189 Israelis were massacred in 53 terror attacks. As the fence kept expanding, hostilities declined, until in 2009 they stood at zero. So these are the numbers."

So its clear-- if you make your political stand against the protective fence you are in favor of murdering of innocent Jews. There is no wiggle room in this argument.

As for the so-called "leaked" Palestinian documents, the Palestinians vehemently deny their legitimacy. Even so, these documents actually reveal the existence of the extremely generous (and not very realistic) offer made by former Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert which was REJECTED by Abbas. The documents do not outline a Palestinian offer to the Israels, but the well known offer the Israelis made to the Palestinians in which Abbas failed to even make a counter offer. Questions about these leaked documents remain--why where they leaked and by whom? Since the validity of these documents was vehemently denied by the Palestinian leadership and subsequently rejected by all segments of the Palestinian society as treachery it is clear that who ever leaked them wanted to scuttle any chance that these terms could ever be implemented--certainly not under the current Palestinian mindset. If anything these documents prove the Palestinians have never been serious about peace, because they never bothered to prepare their society for acceptance of these terms. Any Palestinian leader accepting these terms (let alone offering them) would have a large target put on his head. The bottom line is that Israel has publicly and privately offered very generous terms to the Palestinians and every single source with first had knowledge of these dealings from Bill Clinton to Dennis Ross has publicly outed the Palestinians specifically Arafat for rejecting the final terms agreed upon by all sides at Camp David and Sharm el-Sheikh.

Howie

It seems to me that justification of the murder of this family at this time and in this context is grotesque.

Just say it is horrible and shut up.

There will be plenty of other times and places for a discussion.

YG

If you look at the creation of any new country in history including GB, you will find that the creation of Israel is more justified, more moral and incures less injustice than any other country in the world!
England brutally occupies Northern Irland, Scotland, wales, Foakland Islands and many other nations.
Britian still occupies Afganistan and kills everyday innocent people.
All the Arab countries are artificial countries with minorities occupying majorities (Syria, Jordan, Bahrain, Dubai ...), the most justified both historically and legaly country in the world is Israel!

Victoria

Worried writes:

"@Victoria: Your comments are out of order, and lies. It is interesting that every single person of any faith or nationality who visits Israel (including the English football team a year or two ago), returns with a very different perspective to that espoused by people of your ilk.

I'm willing to bet (correct me if I am wrong) that you are neither Israeli, Jewish, Arab, Pallestinian or have any other direct link to the subjects discussed on these forums. IE, you only receive your information from 3rd parties, such as propaganda web pages, the liberal media and/or a group of likeminded individuals who gain solace in their immovable but inacurate point of view."

No I am not any of those things and whilst I honour the limitations I may have in not having a subjective perspective per se, this doesnt discredit my ability to have an understanding of the situation. Does being Jewish make one better placed to understand? I very much doubt it.

I know only too well the perils of believing everything in the media says and I don't pretend to know everything. By the grace of God, I will continue to learn over my life about both sides. I don't doubt that many people who go to Israel come way with a different perspective - I suspect you are most probably right. It is a beautiful place, thriving in youth and innovation.

But this is precisely my problem. I have been to the region too and it leads such a two-sided life. On the one hand you have Jews living in absolute luxury, with glorious houses on the coast, designer shops and world class education. On the West Bank, however, most Palestinians live in degradation and without access to water, while the Jewish settlers enjoy vast communal swimming pools!!

My current opinion (I say current because opinions change) is on the basis of my work with charities and human rights groups. What I rather resent above all, is that one cannot criticise Israel without being labeled anti-Jewish, which is just absurd. Criticism is often a good thing and I may not like Israel very much in the whole but that doesn't stop from giving credit where credit is due.

I know the Palestinians are just as bad sometimes. The killing of these innocent children shows that, but the pro-Israel lobby (not the same as Israelis might I say) are tremendously hypocritical. They will shout and scream abuse, Islamophobia when a Jewish family is killed, yet often call it 'self-defence' when it is a Palestinian child. I may not be Jewish, Arab,Israeli, or Palestinian. But as a human being, with a family of my own, I cannot get my head around that.

There is nothing wrong with being critical of Israel. There is something wrong with the people who use the ridiculous 'anti-semitism' care when someone does.

Anyway, I doubt many of the people commenting on here have ever been to Israel.

Nachman

@Victoria
Most right minded people in Israel view the person(s) who perpetrated this vile act as the scum of the earth for how else can one describe a person who in cold blood cuts the throat of a three year old baby. I would go one further and ask what else could one call a person such as your good self who apparently supports such evil scum and apparently has difficulty in utterly condemning such a sickening act without invoking some moral inversion?

Nachman

@Victoria

"What on earth are you talking about? There has never been any public calling by an Imam or Sheikh for the killing of non-Muslims, or saying that killing Jews or Christians is justified. Really man, you know nothing about Islam. Your post implied that somehow the opinions of one Islamic leader must
necessarily represent the views of all, which is just plain ignorant. And far from the truth."
i had to laugh when I saw that paragraph Victoria or whatevr your name really is. All I can say is liar liar pants on fire. Just a few examples of the many ...

www.facebook.com/pages/Lets-Draw.../124115974283465
http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/01/hamas-imam-calls-on-allah-to-kill-all.html
http://www.siotw.org/modules/news_english/item.php?itemid=6
http://www.factsofisrael.com/blog/archives/000621.html

leigh

victoria says "My interests lie in bringing the extremists on both sides to justice and in exploring how we can find a way for both sides to live in peace."
OK Victoria- what are you doing about it?

Victoria

Adam B.

"I note that Victoria studiously ignores this point. She also ignores my question as to whether she regards the British soldiers serving in Afghanistan as morally equivalent to the 7/7 suicide bombers. If not, what is the difference?"

I did answer your question, so do your research. I can tell you, Islamophobia is a greater threat than the Taliban, because it fuels extremism.

Herzen

Scott
March 14th, 2011 1:06am
Just about everything you have written is incorrect.

Zeilig

Leonie, I'm still waiting for an answer to my question. Therefore in the light of your silence, I find your allegation difficult to believe.

Adam B.

Victoria

Now the cracks are showing. You have not answered my point asking you whether you regard British soldiers as equivalent to the 7/7 bombings, not have you acknowledged the difference between Israelis and Palestinians in relation to the deaths of innocents i.e. celebrations on the Palestinian street compared to self-criticism and soul searching in Israel. You have not acknowledged difference of intention i.e. the deliberate premeditated murder of innocents versus the unintentional but sadly inevitable deaths of innocents when fighting terrorists who hide behind civilians. Nor have you retracted your allegation that most orthodox Jews are opposed to settlements, despite your lack of evidence for such a bizarre claim, nor have you revised your demonstrably false claim that no imam has ever publicly called for the deaths of non-Muslims.

Victoria - just keep digging. You look ridiculous.

Adam B.

Here's another cracker - "Islamophobia is a greater threat than the Taliban, because it fuels extremism."

So the Taliban isn't extreme then? Only Western "Islamophobes" are the problem. And how does criticism of a religion (or any other belief system) "fuel extremism"?

One also wonders how Victoria has managed to turn a blog about the murder of five Jews into a debate on "Islamophobia".

How's that for twisted?

alexa

" On the West Bank, however, most Palestinians live in degradation and without access to water" ? try read this article about Ramallah
http://www.theisraelproject.org/site/apps/nlnet/content2.aspx?c=hsJPK0PIJpH&b=689705&ct=9033457
as for our legal rights
he “Mandate for Palestine” is Valid to This Day
The Mandate survived the demise of the League of Nations. Article 80 of the UN Charter implicitly recognizes the “Mandate for Palestine” of the League of Nations.

This Mandate granted Jews the irrevocable right to settle anywhere in Palestine, the area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, a right unaltered in international law and valid to this day. Jewish settlements in Judea and Samaria (i.e. the West Bank), Gaza and the whole of Jerusalem are legal.

The International Court of Justice reaffirmed the meaning and validity of Article 80 in three separate cases:

ICJ Advisory Opinion of July 11, 1950: in the “question concerning the International States of South West Africa.”33
ICJ Advisory Opinion of June 21, 1971: “When the League of Nations was dissolved, the raison d’etre [French: “reason for being”] and original object of these obligations remained. Since their fulfillment did not depend on the existence of the League, they could not be brought to an end merely because the supervisory organ had ceased to exist. ... The International Court of Justice has consistently recognized that the Mandate survived the demise of the League [of Nations].”
http://www.mythsandfacts.com/conflict/mandate_for_palestine/mandate_for_palestine.htm

Truthtriumphs

Scott
March 14th, 2011 1:06am
"Pete, practically speaking everything you said has little basis in reality"

A terrific post.... well said!

Herzen doesn't like it, but he cannot refute it.

Thank you!

Edward in the USA

Victoria, You know what breeds islamophobia?

9/11, 7/7/05, video taped beheadings, Beltway snipers, cartoon riots, Mumbai massacres, WMD poison gassing of the Kurds of Halabja, dynamiting of the two 1,500 year old Buddahs of Bamiyan...

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Vicotria:"The Palestinians would be more willing for peace if the Israelis offered concessions,"

You seem very sure, Victoria. On what basis have you developed such confidence? On Palestinian actions towards Israel before there were "settlements'?, perhaps. Perhaps the Palestinian murdering of Jews before the state of Israel existed?

..or is ahistoricism in your blood?

Complete twaddlemeister.

Bill Neale

One has to ask who the racists are.

JOHN ROOSEVELT

Victoria: "There is nothing wrong with being critical of Israel. There is something wrong with the people who use the ridiculous 'anti-semitism' care when someone does."

Indeed, just as there is something wrong when people are called Islamophobic when they criticise Islam and/or Islamists, not to mention threatened with death as a result. Indeed, indeed, Victoria. This is all mind numbingly perspicacious of you...but, despite the undoubted acuity of your assertion, you surely would concede that there is arrant, rampant anti semitism amongst far too many of those who do criticise Israel; an that anti Zionism is a common cloak for anti semitism..or were you also attempting to negate this unassailable fact with your pearls of wisdom?

Reb Shlomo Silverstein

I couldn’t let Victoria’s mistaken notion go without comment.

As a Chareidi Orthodox Jew myself, living in Eretz Yisrael, let me tell you that effectively all Chareidim living here, actively support the mitzvah of yishuv Eretz Yisrael (settling The Land) and this obviously includes the heart of Eretz HaKodesh, that is Yudea and Shomron (which the British call “The West Bank”). This includes every Chareidi camp from the Misnagdim (Non Chasidish) to every Chasidic sect. As difficult as it may seem to gentile or even secular Jewish ears to understand, this has nothing to do with Zionism which we see as a secular political movement.

The one exception to the above is a tiny splinter group of the Neturei Karta Chasidim consisting of some 50 families worldwide and ostracised by the vast majority of Neturei Karta themselves as well as the whole Chareidi world. This small sect makes a lot of noise however and is unfortunately used as a tool by those whose who wish to destroy Israel.

Chareidim were actually the first “settlers”, many of us having left Europe hundreds of years ago in order to settle the land. This includes all parts of Yerushalayim Ir HaKodesh (Jerusalem), Chevron, Tzvat and many other places considered by the West to be “over the green line”.

Today, there are many exclusively Chareidi settlements including Beitar Illit, Modiin Ilit, Emmanuel, and Elad to same just a few.

Although for reasons that are beyond the current discussion, the majority of Chareidim do not consider themselves Zionists, the majority of us are however very pro-Israel (with some exceptions), in fact more right wing than most secular Israelis as can be seen by our newspapers the Yated Neema and HaMishpacha

See this Blog Post where the author compares the secular leftwing “Haaretz” newspaper with the Chareidi newspaper “Yated Neeman” to see which is tachles more pro-State of Israel and nationalist.

http://rebmordechaiwrites.blogspot.com/2010/03/so-what-is-most-pro-zionist-newspaper.html

Truthtriumphs

Victoria.

"What is even more riling, is that most orthodox Jews are AGAINST the settlements.
Haha. You are quite amusing really, your ignorance runs so deep.
Try these sites for a taste of evidence":

http://www.nkusa.org/AboutUs/Zionism/judaism_v_zionism.cfm

http://www.jewsagainstzionism.com

http://www.jewsnotzionists.org

http://www.aztlan.net - Jews Against Zionist Israel

Carry on exposing your ignorance, Victoria--- you are cementing your reputation as an object of ridicule.

Do you really think we don't know about the Neturei karta?
Just so that YOU know, it is an extreme fringe of Jewish outcasts.
These people, who perhaps number a few hundred worldwide, are reviled by the mainstream Jewish community, and particularly by the orthodox.

The more you comment, the more it becomes obvious that your misinformation is gleaned
from hate sites on the internet, and from ahistorical
TV travesties, such as The Promise.

And btw your language skills are wanting.
Your posts are rambling and disjointed.

V H Sealey

It's true Melanie. The Jewish people are legally entitled to be in that area. The Agreements reached at the San Remo Conference in April 1920, to the best of my knowledge are still legally binding, and under those Agreements no Jew was allowed to settle east of the Jordan river, but the land to the West of the Jordan river, extending from the so-called West Bank was allocated to the Jewish people in line with the promise given in the Balfour Declaration. Politicians seem to have political amnesia regarding that.

There were a number of Mandates given at that conference apart from the Mandate for Palestine. Mandates for Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan and Mesopotamia (modern day Iraq). Nobody seems to have a problem with Lebanon, Syria, Transjordan and Mesopotamia being Arab states, but the gentile world seems to believe that the Jewish people are not entitled to anything in the Middle East. Well, this gentile disagrees with the majority.

Anne

Dear Melanie

You have said it so rightly. Thank you. We wish you were the Prime Minister of either Israel or the UK. There is no justice but you write so honestly. Sometimes I buy the Daily Mail just when you have an article in it.

Velhos Fatos

Dear Pete and The rest of the readers,
As to the legality issue of the settlements -
this is a point which should be clarified once and for all.
It is a common misconception, that the so called settlements
are illegal. However, this is far from the truth.
Simply stating that they are legal or illegal is not convincing,
so I will bring here only facts, to prove that the settlements
are indeed legal.
1. First of all, even if we assume, for the moment, that Jordan had
indeed sovereignty over the West Bank in 1967, Jordan has RENOUNCED
it in 1988. Therefore, since then, there is absolutely no question
of legality regarding this territory.
2. In 1944 Israel and Jordan signed the peace treaty. It was
well-defined then, that the international limit between Israel and Jordan is the Jordan river. The West Bank, as the name suggests, is western to the Jordan river and therefore lies legally within Israel.
3.The basic principle underlying the international law is that every piece of the earth is under sovereignty of a certain country (except the South Pole). Sovereignty over a land can be given only to known countries in the world. In the West Bank only one known state could have had this sovereignty - the state of Israel. The so called Palestinians still don't have an independent state.
4. The British Mandate ended in May 1948, and in Israel only one
independent state was declared - the state of Israel. Moreover,
the Israeli law was applied to all the mandate territories at the
time, including the Gaza strip and the West Bank. When Egypt and
Jordan invaded Gaza and the West Bank in 1948, they conquered
these territories; however, the Israeli laws in these areas were
never canceled. When Israel freed them in 1967, the Israeli law was
already applied to these territories.

In conclusion, this is my advice to all of you: stick to the facts!
Do not rely on rumors - they might lead you to the wrong conclusions
Don't let your brain be washed. Base your opinions on the truth and be honest!

Velhos Fatos

This is a correction to fact #2 in my previous comment:
The peace treaty was signed in 1994 ("1944" was a typo).

aelle

Is it not true that the bodies of the two Jewish assassins of Lord Moyne and his British driver were returned from Egypt where they were hanged by the British and buried with full military honours in the cemetery in Jerusalem reserved for Jewish military heroes?

The British government lodged an official protest but, surprise, surprise, no-one took any notice.

Wise Man

I have bad news for all of you who blame this disgusting, barbaric act on settlements or so-called Palestinian suffering: Most of the real Palestinians - not the Professional Victims studying in British universities, and not their detested Hamas overlords in Gaza - are much more human than you: all reporters on the street in Nablus and Ramallah report pure, unaldulterated digust and revulsion to the murder of an entire family. They know much more than you do; they live in reality and not the never-nver-land of the European Left.

And another bad surprise: they understand that the Jews in this area of the world are native peoples, and aren't going anywhere. They are the real partners for co-existence - not Peace maybe (it's hard to have a European peace in this part of the world with lunatic sociopaths running entire countries and political and religious movements) - but human coexistence. Unlike you - some of them kow the Fogel family by face. They look like them, talk like them, breath the same air and drink the same water.

And do us all a favor: stop taking any interest whatsoever in the Midddle East in general and in the Israeli/Arab conflict specifically. Your cognitive abilities are obviously incapable of dealing with human reality on other than a comic-book level.

Adam B.

aelle, was that before or after the hanging of Jewish prisoners in Acre prison - by the British?

Martin

Adam B,
Victoria has quite easily and thoroughly made you look like a fool.

Adam B.

Nice try Martin. She has singularly failed to answer any of the points put to her.

You too have nothing of substance to say - or do you wish to reply to the questions put to her? Come on, don't be shy!

roger hudson

Read the history of the Mandate , the British failure to ENFORCE the secular nature of the Balfour Declaration (Jewish home doesn't mean Jewish religious state, protection of rights of existing arabs means living with Arab neighbours without worrying if they ar Moslems or Christians). The British didn't take religion off the agenda and make it the private matter it should be.

David Travers

Were it not for the Western media's support for the PA and the various Arab regimes in their constant war of words and ideas, not to mention actual nefarious deeds, the situation would not be as dire. But at the peak of this mountain directed at Israel has to be the leaders of the US administrations, the EU and UN who have pressured Israel and constantly criticized them whenever they have legitimately tried to defend themselves and effect any type of equity in the region. Their outspoken measures have been directly responsible for suicide bombing and other atrocities, economic threats and the demonising of Israel.

Mustapha Bunn

YG @ 6.44am .... "England brutally occupies Northern Ireland,Scotland,Wales and the Falkland Islands and many other nations".
Mate,I don't know what you're smoking but it sure has addled your brain.

Charnoski

How come Mel is saying in paragraph 1... "The Palestinian terrorist slaughter overnight of an Israeli couple "

yet, by paragraph 3 she is saying... "We don’t yet know who perpetrated this latest atrocity."

These two statements are completely contradictory.

Yehoshua-Quintin Gordon Burbank

The British and their holier than thou attitude when it comes to Israel and it's people is highly suspect,in view of it's own government occupying Ireland.

aelle

Adam B,

Walter Guinness, 1st Baron Moyne and his driver Cpl. Fuller were shot in cold blood in Cairo in November 1944 - while other British soldiers were dying in Europe fighting against the monstrous tyranny that exposed European Jewry to the Holocaust.

Prior to that the British Administration in Palestine hanged one Irgun member in Acre Prison in 1938 for his involvement in an- unsuccesful - armed revenge attack on a bus carrying Arab civilians.

In 1947 a further 11 Jewish terrorists - or freedom fighters if you wish - were hanged in Acre Prison for offences under the Defence Emergency Regulations introduced in 1945.

These executions therefore postdated the assassination of Lord Moyne.

They did however predate the kidnapping and hanging of two British military policemen by Irgun, who planted bombs on the bodies of the dead soldiers.

Perhaps you saw the incident dramatically recreated in Peter Kosminsky's drama ' The Promise '.

None of this tragic and bloody sequence of events associated with the establishment of the State of Israel provokes anything but sorrow and grief.

I hope no right-thinking person could derive any pride or satisfaction from the blood-stained events that sadly still continue nearly 70 years on.

Adam B.

aelle, Britain did not fight Germany to save Jews.

Furthermore, this was at a time when the British government had stopped Jews immigrating into Palestine from Europe, which effectively was a death sentence for hundreds of thousands. It is a shameful episode in Britain's history - and I say that as someone who loves this country, had family members in the British armed forces at the time and wants to preserve its culture which is currently under attack.

"The Promise" was a piece of antisemitic junk.

aelle

Adam B

Self-evidently Britain fought Germany to save itself first and foremost.

Nor did I say the war was fought
' to save jews '.

However it is beyond dispute that the defeat of Germany by Britain and its allies put an end to the Holocaust.

No doubt that is why Palestinian Jews fought alongside British troops at that time.

I agree that British politicians like Chamberlain and MacDonald brought discredit on this country by limiting Jewish immigration to Palestine in the climate of persecution and ultimately extermination generated by the Nazis.

It is scant consolation that Winston Churchill voted against his own party to reject the measure.

The policy was of course a capitulation in the face of inreasingly violent Palestinian Arab response to both British colonial rule and the dramatic increases in Jewish immigration to Palestine caused by the Nazi threat. Sadly, in 1939, the British were , yet again, fearful for their own survival, and it is unfortunately the case that those whose lives are under threat do not always take the most honourable decisions.

Objectively, it seems to me that the historically sustained Jewish dream of a return to the
' Promised Land ' would, almost inevitably , sooner or later, provoke resistance on the part of those of a different race, religion and culture who had over time come to live on the same land.

The British , sustained at the start of the 20th century by a history of colonial, commercial and military success, assumed, willingly enough, the role of ringmaster in this particular circus. In the event they soon found themselves at the mercy of events and emotions totally beyond their control and comprehension, and finally panicked, blundered and fled, leaving behind the tensions that still persist.

Whether the outcome of any clash between Zionist aspirations and the growing spirit of Arab nationalism following the break up of the Ottoman empire would have produced a different result without the hapless intervention of the British in the wake of the Balfour Declaration - itself, very probably, a piece of Realpolitik dictated by the pressures of WWI, - is, by now, a matter for idle speculation ,alternative history or fiction.

Which is clearly how you regard Kosminsky's 'Promise' .

Whether you regard the series as
' anti-semitic junk ' or a conscientiously-researched attempt to present past and current realities would seem to depend on whether you approach it with a mind open or closed.

Interestingly I am not sure that Ms Phillips has ever alluded to it in her column.

Perhaps she just doesn't watch too much television.

Adam B.

aelle, it is not about an open or closed mind, it is about truth and lies.

It is antisemitic junk because it protrayed an endless number of inaccuracies, designed to paint Jews in the worst possible light. Every Jew was rich with a swimming pool, and a nasty piece of work, whilst every Arab was saintly. Even the dog was shot to save it from falling into the hands of the Jews. Oh, and it ignored a few nasty home truths about the British military presence.

Garbage.

Stephanie Clague

I note with utter sadness how many posters are attempting to justify the cold blooded murder of children, there is no justification at all.
Those posters who talk about 'Palestinian' children being killed cannot point to ONE single incident of a Jew sneaking into a 'Palestinian' house and stabbing to death a family including a baby. There has been not one incident of a Jew deliberately going out to murder children in their beds.

The ugly moral relativism I see here where Israeli self defence is seen as a crime sickens me. It seems that there are people who cannot tell the difference between justifiable self defence and common murder. As for those posters who believe that because a family were considered to be squatters they deserved to be murdered, I simply cannot comprehend the thought processes behind such a conclusion, do they think that murdering squatters in London is justifiable? Or is it only Jews who deserve to be killed for these imagined crimes.

It is a fact that if the 'Palestinians' somehow regained their humanity and made a peace deal then NO Jewish family would invade a 'Palestinian' state to settle, until recognised borders are negotiated and defined there is simply no such thing as illegal Jewish settlers. The 'Palestinians' are holding out on a deal because the only outcome they desire or require is a 'Juden frei' middle east, the driving of the Jews into the sea or mass graves. The 'Palestinians' are not a people the term is merely a convenient temporary vehicle to enable the destruction of Israel.

Alex Macfie

Melanie Philips: They are NOT "liberals". The sort of left-winger who uncritically supports movements like the PLO typically regards liberals as establishments sell-outs: as yellow Tories long before the present Coalition.

Most actual liberals take a don't-care or plague-on-both-their-houses approach to the Israel/Palestine conflict; insofar as they have support anyone, it would be cross-community movements, since liberalism is defined by non-sectarianism.

Adam B.

Stephanie, excellent post. The moral relativism is sickening.

aelle

Adam B

As I recall 'The Promise' did not show ' that every Jew has a swimming pool '.

We did of course see a well-heeled Jewish family - the father was, I think, a former General in the Israeli Army - or should that be Defence Force? - and I guess most ex- Generals in most countries live fairly comfortably.

It seems rather perverse to suggest that we are being invited to assume this is the standard life-style of the entire population.

I don't recall Brideshead Revisited being criticised on the grounds that not all Englishmen live in castles.

In contemporary terms the drama showed Israelis of apparently more modest means living in Hebron.

But I imagine you might find the portrayal of their way of life equally unacceptable.

For my part I am prepared to believe that there are some people in Israel living lives similar to the ex-General in Caeserea and the settlers in Hebron. And, very obviously, many more living lives that in no way resemble either.

This was, after all, a drama based on verifiable facts and events, both historical and current, and not a documentary purporting to reflect the totality of life in Israel at the present time.

As for the 'inaccuracies' or authenticity of the historical sequences, there may be perverse deniers of reality in the world who question the Holocaust, but I have not heard anyone deny the reality of the events at Deir Yassin which provoked so many Palestinians to flee their villages and homes in fear for their lives. Villages and homes to which they are now forbidden to return by Israeli law.

I'm not sure there was any attempt to portray the Jews as particularly inhumane to dogs - if only the same could be said of their attitude and behaviour to the unfortunate Arabs being driven from their modest homes and livelihoods in the name of a 'Promise' dreamed up by Jews from a previous millennium.

If Kosminsky's 'Promise' made for uncomfortable viewing for some, I would suggest it was not any absence of 'home truths' about the hard pressed British military, rather the delivery of some unpalatable truths about the reality of events whether in 1948 or 2000 that some people would prefer to turn a blind eye to.

Carole

I agree, it`s unbelievable what is happening!
As in your recent book `The world Turned Upside Down` Wrong is right and right is wrong!
This state of affairs is also in the prophecies of the biblical scriptures for the end of the age and it`s happening before our eyes!
Instead of the real perpetraters of evil the jews are demonized at every turn, and as in this terrible slaughter of innocents silence from the media!

Adam B.

aelle, it is sad tat you regard the Promise as being a factual or accurate representation of what occurred, and is occurring. Kosminsky made great play of having talked to "lots of people" (yet he only spoke to pro-Palestinian organizations). There was not a single sympathetic Jewish character, who were all presented as either liars, deceivers, or just uncaring brutes. Yet every Palestinian had a halo.

It is utterly demolished by Richard Millett on his blog - please read it:

http://richardmillett.wordpress.com/2011/02/28/channel-4-is-not-promising-for-british-jews/#comments

David

Ma'am,

You are wonderful. Calling barbarism barbarism in this day of doublespeak is heroic.

aelle

Adam B

I am plainly a sucker for punishment as I followed your suggestion and tracked down the site on which your Mr Millett pours out his views on the Middle East from his own fixed position.

I can see why you find his views so comforting - he does come across as a poor man's Melanie Phillips in the making.

It has been said that in the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king. Mr Millett does not require vision of any description - his mind is closed to all but his own supremacist version of history - which would only be troubled by exposure to uncomfortable truths.

I am more than happy to leave the two of you in fraternal embrace of each other and your convictions.

I suppose I should have recalled the reported words of no less an authority than Moses interlocutor in Exodus 33.5 :
" Say unto the children of Israel, Ye are a stiff-necked people.."

Yes indeed.

Adam B.

Thank you aelle, for demonstrating that you can't disagree on any matter of substance, instead being reduced to name calling.

How nice of you to call the Jews "supremacist".

Adam B.

aelle, your recent comments about Jews on another blog show who you really are. No wonder you liked the hatred of the Promise.

Linda

I Pray to G-D that there will come a time soon when the Truth the whole Truth and nothing but The Truth will be known to All..
may G-D comfort those who mourn, and may the hearts of the Israeli people know that whilst the enemies are many, the number of True friends are growing day by day