Armchair barbarism

David

I find it hard to read again and again the words of astonishment written by Melanie concerning the level the bbc has fallen to. The bbc has been a jolly fellow traveler with the hard left for the best part of 25 years. As an organization it would have to be abolished and started from scratch for it to be rescued from the sewer in which it has made its bed for so long. So lets get away from the continuous suprise at the level of lies it tells about Israel and the Jewish vitims of barbaric terrorists. What we need to accept is that our countries main broadcaster has been complicit in the endless lies about Israel's right to exist for years. If they cant bring themselves to tell the truth about the evil commited against that family by insane barbarians what chance they tell the truth about anything else concerning Israel?

Truthtriumphs

Here is the link.
It should be seen.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E0mrTIlwqQA

Maddy1

Arguably, the first lack of moral outrage, was the British Mrs. Bloch done away with all those years ago in Entebbe. God bless her.

Johntheatheist

The useful idiots of the left are tools of the pathology that enables such retrograde barbarism.

jeanne patterson

Melanie, thank you for your strong, clear voice in these dark days.
The twisted people that come to your site are nothing but hateful trolls - they only seek your site out so they can spew their vitriol.
Please remember - the rest of us need and appreciate you. God bless you.

Harvey Jackson.

Furthermore the Skynews online never reported the brutal barbaric murder of the Fogel family members.Saturday night i sent an e-mail direct to the skynews department informing them of the friday night /saturday morning Itamar attack.There has been no mention of this event in the " first with breaking news" paper online.

Harvey Jackson

The BBC and CNN both swivelled the focal point of the event -The Fogal Family barbaric murders, downplayed it and centered on building houses as the "crime" .
What can be done with these media giants to get an even approach -to cut out their blaring bias - boycott?

JOHN ROOSEVELT

No war crime this, of course...

Where is Goldstone when you need 'im?

Vomitous.

Robbo

Hear hear.

Grumpy true Zionist

kol hakavod Melanie

to be read as well;
www.mythsandfacts.org-Conflict-5-Incitement

Eli.E.Hertz

Derek BLADES

I understand Ms Phillips outrage at this barbarous execution of a Jewish family. I am also against arm-chair barbarism but ask why we should not feel the same anger at the barbarous killing by Israeli forces of several hundred innocent men, women and children in Israel's latest wars in Lebanon and Gaza?

One other question: How can the extension of settlement building, apparently announced in retaliation to the killing of the Folger family, possibly be seen as in Israel's interests.

Larry in Tel Aviv

Melanie you can thank 'Jewish' liberals as well for this disgusting obscene state of affairs. The contempt of Jewish liberals in Israel and America against the settlers (who are hated for the same reason ALL Jews are hated - Muslim extremism) means any murder of settlers is justified and pardoned and blamed on the victims. Jewish liberals have thus made an inadvertent unwitting alliance with Muslim fanatics (PA and Abbas included)
and they don't even know it.

inayat

'...the moral depravity of the Arabs...'

Replace 'Arabs' with 'Jews' and I don't suppose you would be too happy, eh Mel?

Jez

All I can say is that the BBC has been this way for decades.

It's just that the BBC have now turned its attention to the Jewish state of Israel.

You've been singled out for the Liberal Left's special treatment.

The working class in Britain have had this 'honour' for a very long time now.

Victoria

Hypocrites! Did you know that an 8-month old Palestinian child was murdered by the IDF this weekend in a routine operation? Clearly this was not news-worthy either. Thankfully the rest of the world doesn't follow your example and price the life of an Israeli child above that of a Palestinian.

Surely, when you see these haunting pictures of the Fogel family, you must see that something must change? Why should any children have to die? You tell me.

Jack R

And meanwhile, next door to Israel, in Lebanon, there are demonstrations against Hezbollah which go unreported by BBC, and unsupported by much of the 'liberal-left' in the West. Is it too late: are we 'all Hezbollah now'?

AFP report:

"Opposition rallies against Hezbollah."

Truthtriumphs

Derek BLADES

aka defender of the BBCs outrageous behaviour in its refusal to pubilsh the BALEN Report, which it commissioned itsef to look into bias in the BBCs coverage of the I/P conflict.

"I understand Ms Phillips outrage at this barbarous execution of a Jewish family. I am also against arm-chair barbarism but ask why we should not feel the same anger at the barbarous killing by Israeli forces of several hundred innocent men, women and children in Israel's latest wars in Lebanon and Gaza?"

Oh, but it has been roundly condemned, except that the killing was entirely the responsibility of Hamas, who waged a war for years, embedded in the civilian population of Gaza (war crime), aiming their rockets at Israeli civilians living peacefully across the border in Israel (war crime), using their own people as human shields (war crime), until,8 years later, Israel had no choice but to defend her citizens.

Clever, trick, eh, Blades,
Hamas putting Israel in a lose/lose situation?
damned if she doesn't strike back, and damned if she does!

Joshua

Melanie Phillips writes:

"a sickening form of armchair barbarism which is also in evidence, it has to be said, on the comment thread beneath my post below."

And that barbarism appears to have travelled already to this thread. Our Russian and Polish great-grandparents used to say that "it is hard to be a Jew". Those words have an especial resonance for Jews living today in Britain.

Maya

To Victoria
"Did you know that an 8-month old Palestinian child was murdered by the IDF this weekend in a routine operation?"

Link please. Cannot find it anywhere. How did you find out about it?

Maya

Victoria. You say
"Surely, when you see these haunting pictures of the Fogel family, you must see that something must change?"

You have hit the nail on the head.
How about Israel withdrawing from Gaza?
Oh. Sorry. They did that.
How about withdrawing from 90% of the West Bank and giving it to the PA.
Oh. Sorry. They did that.
How about offering 98% of the West, most of E.Jerusalem, resettlement of a proportion of the Palestinian refugees and monetary compensation to those who could prove they lost property?
Oh. Sorry. They offered that.
The answer was No.
It's obvious what you think should change.
Israel's very existence.
Thanks but no thanks.

Jez

Victoria.

If you can see the difference between a military operation that has tragically taken the life of a small child and an assassin creeping into a house, killing a family and slitting throats of children, then you shouldn't be let loose near a keyboard to share such outrageous rubbish with the rest of society.

Cassandra King

Thank you for this article Melanie, the ugly reality of our national broadcaster acting in this way is beyond belief and too shameful to bear.

The BBC has to be stopped, it is an ever more visible sign of national degeneration, nothing prepared me for the BBC response and I still cannot fully understand why and how people could do this with a clear conscience. Have the BBC people responsible for this grotesque insult got children of their own?

Carl

Anybody who referred to Jews as "savages" and morally depraved" would be quite correctly denounced as an Anti semite.

Adam B.

Victoria, do you understand the term "murdered"? Was this a deliberate act?

And how many children have been killed by British forces in Afghanistan? Were they too murdered deliberately? Have there been celebrations on the streets of London and tel Aviv at the deaths of innocents, as we have witnessed on the Palestinian street?

Remove all context, and cause and effect, and you get Victoria's parallel universe.

Adam B.

The BBC stinks.

Shimon

Victoria,
Where did you get this info about 8 month killed palestinian child? I'll very much appreciate if you can publish the reference.

BalaamsAss

The are none so blind as those who won't see.

Yet Melanie, many do see and know exactly what the game is here. May the Fogel family rest in peace and the perpetrators of their supporters around the world receive just retribution.

esther

@Victoria, 8:52
"Did you know that an 8-month old Palestinian child was murdered by the IDF this weekend in a routine operation?"
Can you please provide or refer to the details of this supposed killing?

RCE

Victoria @ 8:52am
No, I didn't know that; and in a way, that is the point. The western media in general, and the BBC in particular, have become organs for promoting their own ideological agenda rather than communicators of news. This is fundamentally wrong and manifest in the example you cite. The media should report the facts honestly and truthfully and allow people to decide for themselves; they currently do not, and this is wholly immoral.

The life of the Palestinian child you mention is worth no less than that of any other.

Veracity

I long ago discounted anything the BBC says about any conflict anywhere once I realised what they were saying about Israel, and I knew from first hand experience it was wrong, then they lost all credibility. Unfortunately life experinece has taught me most people are exceedingly lazy and will not find out for themselves and so are easily led like sheep by these false shepherds, and even the shepherds take one party line with few exceptions into original research

logdon

inayat
March 14th, 2011 8:25am

Moral relativism at a time like this?

I think, Inayat that it is your morals that are skewed. And in your comment, actually endorse all that Melanie says.

Pathetic creep!

Alex Bensky

Israeli sources call this a terrorist attack.

In other news, Israeli sources call water wet and grass green.

The most disturbing, if not surprising, part of this is the Palestinian reaction. Except for a tiny fringe of Israeli society Baruch Goldstein's atrocity was greeted by universal horror and condemnation across Israeli society. No one took to the streets cheering and passing out candy.

Truthtriumphs

Victoria
"Hypocrites! Did you know that an 8-month old Palestinian child was murdered by the IDF this weekend in a routine operation? Clearly this was not news-worthy either. Thankfully the rest of the world doesn't follow your example and price the life of an Israeli child above that of a Palestinian".
An obscene comment from a depraved mind.
Most people understand the difference between gratuitously stabbing defenceless children, after breaking into their home, and the tragic loss of a baby's life by an army trying to defend its people from terror attacks.
By extension, you obviously approve of the stance of pre-war European Jewry, which obligingly walked to their deaths....all 6 million of them, without fighting back.
Just imagine, had they done so, how many "innocent" German lives would have been lost as collateral.
That's what you want, isn't it, Victoria, a completely passive response by Jews to whatever fate the murderers, in this instance , the Palestinian "resistance", decides for them?

Truthtriumphs

Here is what Steven Weinberg, American Nobel laureate in physics, wrote about the British media some years ago, after cancelling a speaking engagement at Imperial, following the disgusting attempts by the NUJ to boycott the Israelis.
Rings true today more than ever.
"I just felt this was too disgusting and I didn't want to go there this summer," Weinberg said. "I see in the British press and the BBC signs of a very strong anti-Israel bias - a kind of blind hostility that whatever Israel does, it is always in the wrong - so this is not an isolated action of a small group of anti-Semitic conspirators. This represents a widespread feeling among British journalists."

Nachman

@derek Blades
I repeat what I said on another thread:
Most right minded people in Israel view the person(s) who perpetrated this vile act as the scum of the earth for how else can one describe a person who in cold blood cuts the throat of a three month old sleeping baby. (The BBC obviously thinks that because the baby lived on a settlement somehow she did not deserve the sympathy it freely affords to Palestinian children by continually using the word"settler" and does not even name her). Accordingly I would go one further and ask what else could one call a poster such as your goodself who apparently has great difficulty in unconditionally condemning a sickening and cowardly terrorist act perpetrated by the Palestinians by calling it such (when you have no such compunction in minutely recording every perceived "evil" carried out by Israel) and in addition callously invoke some moral inversion to justify it?

Augustus

This is absolutely unforgiveable, that the murder of this poor family of innocents, including a three month old baby, has to be reported by the BBC (and other Western media I might add) as
Israel's fault. And I wouldn't put it passed some politicians to do the same. Perhaps Obama should hang those bloody photos over his bed. But let's stop pretending, Palestinians glorify in violence and terror.
Terrorists are heroes to them,
killing Israelis has become a sort of pop culture, a way to earn eternal fame. Absolutely disgusting!

Maya

Victoria.
Please supply your link, or we may think it doesn't exist, and you are either making it up, or you are misinformed.

I suspect that your information comes from a VERY old news report.

Maya

To RCE
You say
"No, I didn't know that; and in a way, that is the point. The western media in general, and the BBC in particular, have become organs for promoting their own ideological agenda rather than communicators of news."
Have you any proof that what Victoria says is true? Have you done your own research or do you swallow what 'she' says without checking. Several people on here can find no reference to the incident to which she refers. Have you?

Graeme Thompson

Derek BLADES
March 14th, 2011 8:06am

Melanie, I do hope you keep posting the comments of this evil individual. They are most instructive.

A commenter on Biased-BBC mentioned a complaint they have made to the BBC for Radio 4 news bulletins not mentioning that 3 of the victims were children.

When collateral deaths in Israeli military actions include children the BBC never tires of mentioning the fact. When 3 Israeli children, one a 3 month old baby, are murdered in cold-blood, the BBC do not consider it newsworthy.

Derek BLADES

Under the heading "Mahmoud Abbas condemns West Bank settler family murders", the BBC website updated earlier today carries the following story:

"Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas has strongly condemned the murder of a family of five Jewish settlers in the West Bank.

Mr Abbas said the killings, which happened on Friday, were "immoral and inhuman".

Israel suspects the murders were carried out by Palestinian militants.

Tensions are running high on the West Bank with some settlers having already carried out revenge attacks on Palestinian cars and houses.

The killing of five members of the Fogel family, including three children, has shocked both Israelis and many Palestinians.

Officials said the assailants cut through a fence around the settlement of Itamar and entered the Fogels' home, stabbing to death parents Udi and Ruthie, Yoav, 11, four-year-old Elad and baby Hadas, aged three months.

The bodies were found by a 12-year-old daughter when she returned home from a youth group meeting. Two other children sleeping in another room in the house were not hurt."

What I really need to know from someone – anyone actually - is just what is wrong with this report. Like all BBC reporting, it is clear and concise. It reports the facts as presently known and describes both the Israeli and Palestinian reactions to the killings. It does not trivialise the deaths nor does it put the blame on the Fogels for being settlers.

Will someone please tell me what the fuss is about? Really. I need to know.

Hugh Mann

seems to me israeli extremism and terrorism is not in the news enough. the government sanctions the demolition of homes of those who are not their citizens and replacing them with their own towns is sure to provoke a brutal and immoral as it is anywhere in the world. what more can you lose than your home?

DavidSI

Victoria, you've pointed heatedly to a very specific incident in which "an 8-month old Palestinian child was murdered by the IDF this weekend in a routine operation".
I've searched for a while now on that incident and cannot find any reference to it at all. Please could you point me to where you read about this?

Steve

Victoria,

FYI I just googled "child killed by idf" and got 362,000 hits. I also googled "child killed by israeli soldier" 582,000 hits, and "child killed by Israel", 14.8 million hits. THat's a total of over 15 million hits which don't include your 'story'.

On the contrary "child killed by hamas" generates 1.53m hits and "child killed by hezbollah" 407,000 whilst "child killed by palestinian authority" illicits just 385,000 hits.

To put this in terms that your tiny brain can understand, this appears to suggest that Israel is held to account for child deaths around 15 more times than the terrorist groups that you support, and that is without even getting into your obscene moral equivalence between accidental collateral damage and the deliberate hands on brutal murder of children by savages.

You truly inhabit a moral cesspit. Please stay in it.

John Waller

were the slaughtered children of forigners who tried to settle pastureland in the Soux Nation any less inocent, were their parents any less whatever it is that makes someone move into a neighbourhood without befrending the neighbours.is the vilan any less misguided in his hopeless anger. if god gave settlers the right to be there i am sure they are having a heated debate now that they are together. god save the bbc for not taking sides.

nachman

@derek BLADES
This report appears on the BBC three days after the event I am sure due in no small measure to approbium heaped on the BBC for its earlier mealy mouthed reports which seeminly blamed the victims and carried a photo of an Israeli soldier. Note however that the story is framed as trying to show the Palestinians in a good light conveniently neglecting to include in the report that Abu Mazzen's own party Fatah has claimed responsibility for this inhumane act.

Augustus

Hugh Mann - You ask, "what more can you lose than your home?"
Have you considered that, following the Arab League Draft Laws on Jews-1947, 800,000 Jews,
many of whose ancestors had lived there for centuries, were expelled or made to flee Arab countries. They were forced to desert their homes, and leave behind all their belongings and businesses. What is Israel's settlement activity compared to that? Are you saying that these
Jews somehow deserved to be murdered in their beds?

Adam B.

For those asking Victoria to provide a reference for her allegation - forget it. She has refused to provide a reference for her absurd allegation that most orthodox Jews oppose settlements, whilst her "reasoning" consists of contending that Islamophobia is "extreme" whilst the Taliban are not.

She has refused to acknowledge the celebrations on the Palestinian street at the deaths of these Jewish children. Oh, and she also contended that no imam or sheikh has ever publicly called for the deaths of Jews or Christians. One need look no further than youtube to find such references.

She's probably trawling the internet right now, trying to find reference to her allegations.

Adam B.

Derek Blades - two questions:

1. Did Mr Abbas condemn the killings in Arabic, to a domestic audience? Palestinian leaders have a history of saying one thing to the West, and quite another to Palestinians and the wider Arab world.

2. Why does Abbas not immediately expel the Al Aqsa Martyrs Brigades from Fatah? It is his own organization which has claimed responsibility for the murders.

The BBC, in its reporting, stated that "Israel has blamed the Palestinians" - neglecting to mention that Fatah had already claimed responsibility for the murders. It also linked the attack to the peace process throughout its initial article - as if the killer was only frustrated at the lack of peace, so couldn't help but go on a killing rampage. They even put the initial headline in speech marks - as if to question whether the killings had occurred at all.

Sick and absurd.

Adam B.

Melanie, I'm glad you mentioned the sickness of some of the comments appearing here, turning these murders into yet another opportunity to bash Israel and the Jews. For some, even when Jews are murdered - it appears to be their own fault.

The moral relativism at work beggars belief.

Miranda Rose Smith

understand Ms Phillips outrage at this barbarous execution of a Jewish family. I am also against arm-chair barbarism but ask why we should not feel the same anger at the barbarous killing by Israeli forces of several hundred innocent men, women and children in Israel's latest wars in Lebanon and Gaza?

One other question: How can the extension of settlement building, apparently announced in retaliation to the killing of the Folger family, possibly be seen as in Israel's interests.

Dear Mr. Blades: The Israelis do their absolute best to avoid killing civilians, rather difficult when you're fighting people who shoot from populated areas. The Arabs break into people's houses to slaughter Jews in their beds at night.

RCE

Maya@1251
I looked in the short time I had, but couldn't find anything either; if Victoria has made it up, then that speaks for itself and is ultimately for her and her conscience. In my post, rather than quibble (insofar as it was/is impossible for me to 'prove' the negative that something DID NOT happen), I attempted to focus on the significant contradiction of her wider argument.

I could have gone on to assert my belief that if there was anything near balanced, factual reportage of I/P there would be much greater support for Israel. I could have also questioned her use of the word 'murder', and also what led her to think that anyone suggested Israeli lives were worth more... but I try to keep my posts pithy!

Tilly

Larry in Tel Aviv

People don't have "contempt" for other people in a vacuum. There has to be an underlying reason for it.

Intense disapproval of lifestyle, opinions, religion - or even appearance - could all explain why Israel's liberal Jews scorn the settlers. But if feelings are running as high as you suggest (and I don't doubt it for a moment), you also have to consider that the settlers are regarded as palpably, recklessly, dangerous.

For this perception to take root, some compelling evidence is needed of behaviour either so unjustifiably violent, or so provocative, that claims of "innocent victimhood" pale by comparison.

On the preceding thread to this one (now so lengthy it's impossible to keep track of the arguments), the name of Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira was raised as an example of a settler whose utterances would be viewed as very dangerous indeed if turned on their head and expressed by an Imam: provocative in the extreme, and quite clearly bestowing religious "sanction" on acts of homicidal violence against civilians, including children.

To recap: Shapira wrote that it was permissible for Jews to kill non-Jewish children for the following reasons - (a) an assumption that they would grow up to become enemies of Israel; (b) in order to put pressure on enemy leaders; or (c) if they were "in the way".

The response from various blog correspondents was to dismiss Shapira as a mere "crackpot" whose influence could not be compared to that of an Islamist extremist because (among other things) Israel allowed freedom of speech and such views could therefore be adequately countered.

If this were, indeed, the case it would be quite right to dismiss the "liberal" view as misguided, paranoid, or snobbishly prejudiced. But Shapira, it would seem, is by no means just a sidelined nutter.

When challenged to demonstrate that he directly influenced others to commit acts of violence, the picture which emerged fully explained (for me at least) why the settlers' image had become so damaged.

Far from confining his appalling pronouncements to an obscure book, Shapira had been arrested three times - once for "incitement" (publicly advocating the killing of all Palestinians over the age of 13); the other times over suspected involvement in criminal offences committed by his followers - the torching of a mosque and a rocket attack.

Students at his yeshiva were, in addition, frequently accused of harassing and damaging the crops of neighbouring Palestinians.

But these were mere public nuisances compared to the murder of two Palestinians by Jack Teitel, a self-proclaimed Shapira follower, who also confessed to the attempted murder of the liberal Israeli historian Ze'er Sternhell.

Did any of this rebound on Yitzhak Shapira? Like hell! Despite strenuous attempts by the police to make charges stick, at each turn he was released and allowed to continue instructing students in his twisted version of Holy Writ at his (heavily state-funded) settlement school.

The reason for such latitude is only hard to fathom if one regards Shapira as a maverick shielded by exceptionally wily lawyers. It makes perfect sense if the respect accorded to his views by other highly influential figures on the "settlement" issue is taken into account. Two in particular stand out (but they're by no means alone): Rabbi Zalman Nechemia Goldberg, chief justice of the Rabbinical High Court in Jerusalem, who endorsed Shapira's book, and Rabbi Dov Lior, whose notoriety extends rather beyond the endorsement he, too, gave.

Lior was the man who organised a shrine to Baruch Goldstein, mass-murderer of Palestinians praying in Hebron's Cave of the Patriarchs mosque in 1994. For any government to tolerate such a gesture (in a park, moreover, named after the founder of Kach, officially classified as a terrorist organisation by the US and Israel) suggests either extraordinary hypocrisy by that government or a highly significant level of power in the hands of religious extremists advocating violence.

No doubt the majority of settlers take no part in violent activity of any sort; just like most Palestinians, they want more than anything to lead uneventful lives. But by being prepared to countenance Rabbis like Shapira in their midst and either turn a blind eye or applaud the wrongdoings of other community members, they cannot expect to be untainted by association. Claims to "innocent victim" status have to be assessed in this light - for Jews and Palestinians alike.

So: those are the conclusions I came to just from trawling the internet; you (presumably) are a resident Israeli whose take on the settlers and their leaders is quite different. I'd be very interested to hear your perspective if you have the time.

Truthtriumphs

Blades.

"What I really need to know from someone – anyone actually - is just what is wrong with this report. Like all BBC reporting, it is clear and concise.

Will someone please tell me what the fuss is about? Really. I need to know".

What I really need to know from someone – anyone actually -but preferably Blades, is just why the BBC refuses to publish the Balen report, which it itself commissioned into bias in its reportage of the I/P conflict.

The Balen report must have come up with some pretty damning evidence, otherwise the BBC wouldn't have spent hundreds of thousands of pounds (our money),on going to the high court to suppress its publication, would it, Blades?

Miranda Rose Smith

March 14th, 2011 11:01am
Victoria.

If you can see the difference between a military operation that has tragically taken the life of a small child and an assassin creeping into a house, killing a family and slitting throats of children, then you shouldn't be let loose near a keyboard to share such outrageous rubbish with the rest of society.

Dear Jez: BRAVO!!

Dear Victoria: If the now-so-called "Palestinians" don't want the Israelis to shoot back at them and occasionally, accidentally, kill their children, all they have to do is quit shooting at the Israelis and take the second autonomous homeland that the Israelis keep offering them. The only thing the Israelis can do to get Arabs to stop murdering them is to disappear off the face of the earth.

Miranda Rose Smith

Adam B.
March 14th, 2011 11:21am
Victoria, do you understand the term "murdered"? Was this a deliberate act?

And how many children have been killed by British forces in Afghanistan? Were they too murdered deliberately? Have there been celebrations on the streets of London and tel Aviv at the deaths of innocents, as we have witnessed on the Palestinian street?

Remove all context, and cause and effect, and you get Victoria's parallel universe.

Dear Mr. B: I was just wondering how many little Irish children must have gotten in the way of the bullets when British soldiers were shooting at the IRA.

Travis

The BBC (like NPR here in America) needs to be defunded by the British taxpayer.

Miranda Rose Smith

By extension, you obviously approve of the stance of pre-war European Jewry, which obligingly walked to their deaths....all 6 million of them, without fighting back.
Dear Truthtriumphs: I assume you're being sarcastic. The Jews fought back. Ever hear of the Warsaw Ghetto? Ever hear of Treblinka?

Truthtriumphs

Tilly.

"To recap: Shapira wrote that it was permissible for Jews to kill non-Jewish children for the following reasons - (a) an assumption that they would grow up to become enemies of Israel; (b) in order to put pressure on enemy leaders; or (c) if they were "in the way".

That is a grossly libellous statement, and I hope he reads it and sues you.
Indeed, I might just find out his address and forward it.

Quote chapter and verse of HIS EXACT WORDS IN CONTEXT.

I requested it earlier, but you haven't obliged, have you.
Your silence is revealing.

Raymond Douglas

Melanie, my every sympathy to the family of these poor people. Also, may our good Lord comfort you. Bless you.

Liz

Hey Vikky (and Tilly and DEREK for that matter) please take a peek at this news item. Yeah I know it's an Israel newspaper reporting, but just for one minute, please try and suspend your '1970s polytechnic' view of the world and see what it has to say. The item concerns the 'burning sheep' libel. viewshttp://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/141338

Ellen

It's unbelievable to be me that the media in the United States has almost totally ignored the murder of the Fogel family in Israel. Totally biased reporting from all media outlets! I'm ashamed.

Truthtriumphs

Miranda Rose Smith.

"Dear Truthtriumphs: I assume you're being sarcastic. The Jews fought back. Ever hear of the Warsaw Ghetto? Ever hear of Treblinka?"

I think you will agree that the number of Jews who would/could fight back was statistically insignificant.
I know enough people, still alive today, who witnessed it/lived through it,and testify to the fact that most accepted their terrible fate with little resistance...some who could flee, did.
That is no shame upon them.... they didn't have the means to resist.

I think that you will find that throught history, the Warsaw ghetto uprising, and the last stand at Massada, were exceptions, rather than the rule.

Johnh Thomas

Why doesn't some influential person launch a serious, well-planned campaign to end the licence fee? I suppose most influential people are in the pocket of the Establishment, which runs things ... Yes, taxation without representation is what the licence fee is. We need a revolution, and SOON!

Herzen

Truthtriumphs
March 14th, 2011 4:34pm
I doubt that Shapira will sue: he after all has read his own book. It is surprising that you appear unaware of the use Halakhah has been put to by Rabbis at least since the 1950s. Shapira is far from uniquely vile.

C.Gee

Ms. Phillips rightly draws attention to the lack of outrage at the slaughtering of a Jewish family in their homes, and the justification of the slaughter by saying the homes are in the wrong place. She also notes that some of the comments have been barbarous.

Victoria, taking it personally that her refined moral sensitivity and fairness have been impugned, is morally outraged. Having given a pro forma condemnation of the slaughter, she demands that those who express outrage should also be outraged at the killing of Arab children by the IDF. She then asserts that not to express equal outrage is hypocrisy. By accusing those who do not decry IDF actions equally with terrorism of valuing Jewish life above Palestinian life, she impugns our moral outrage: we (Jews and Israel supporters) are not entitled to express horror because we do not care about Palestinian children. And so she has managed to add insult to injury, while simultaneously clambering onto the moral high ground, her armchair, from which she can talk about herself, her fairness, her goodness, her feelings for the oppressed. She parades her qualifications to lecture and hector us. She is Christian. She does human rights (!) and charity work. She has read the Koran (certainly gives a Christian reading of it). She does research. She believes that she is placed as well as, if not better than, Jews living in or out of Israel, to see the truth of what is going on. Jews, after all, are Jews. Jews, being Jews, are for themselves as no other people is for itself. She says that no imam or sheik incites or condones the killing of innocent Jews because she has read the Koran and it does not permit it. From where she sits, she knows that her criticism of Israel is not anti-semitic. From where she sits, she can see the unfairness of Jews swimming while Palestinians are degraded. As a non-Jew, non-Palestinian, non-Arab, non-Israeli human being she cannot get her head around how the “Israeli lobby” (ah, yes, here come the Elders, the real Jews, more real than Israeli Jews), screams abuse at Palestinians (“murderers”? is that abusive Islamophobia?), but claim Palestinian children are killed in self-defense. That is because her head is so human, thanks to her human rights work, research and non- swarthy Levantine outlook. She is not concerned that her armchair vantage point may lessen the force of her criticism of Israel, because she knows that lots of other people haven’t gone there either. Oh, and though she is sharing her opinions with us, they may change, as all fashion accessories do.

Thank you so much, dear lady, for welcoming us into your gracious mind. Had a lovely time...

Augustus

I don't think most of the anti-
Israel comments on Melanie's previous post could really be described as 'armchair barbarism, but there is certainly an element of turning a blind eye to Islamist ideology
and its cult of death. Pride and enthusiasm are central to
the murderers, suicide bombers,
and rocket launchers actions. And that is because the whole conflict has fundamentally changed in the last few decades.
A war of world dominance and religious extremism has emerged
and overtaken what was, on the world stage, a minor conflict between Palestinians and Zionists. Today it is the Palestinians who have been subjected to the most abstract of evils irrespective of what policies Israel pursues, while they stand only for perfect innocence regardless of what their representatives' policies are. To people who believe this,
that Palestinians are the collective victim, and Israel is
the aggressor who commits crimes, there is no interest, no sympathy whatsoever, in the real policy options for Israel.

In fact, in the early days, numerous Arabs welcomed European Jewish immigrants. Studies have been made which show that between 1917 and 1948 Palestinian collaboration with Zionists was commonplace. But Islamist voices battled against this cooperation and perpetrated acts of violence
rooted in hatred and envy because the immigrants way of life challenged their traditional customs. So the big question now is what exactly is
the flourishing Palestinian model? Has the Gaza Strip, for example, focussed on peace and prosperity (as was hoped for in
the summer of 2005)? Or is it the case that the now familiar black and white paradigm must remain intact at all costs, no matter how many 1947 two state solutions are rejected, and no matter how many avoidable wars are waged against an enemy who
produces maps which refuse to
show that Israel even exists?

Leo

Liz, very interesting article and of course we can be assured of the impartiality of the paper in question....

Now, why don't readers check out this charming piece of footage (no doubt it's been doctored by those anti-Israel human rights activists at B'Tselem, just like the endless pieces of video footage now available showing unprovoked settler attacks on Palestinians):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XJxPgQ9Qx8Y

Youtube is full of this stuff - boy I wonder what drives a group like B'Tselem to expend so much energy falsifying all this video evidence. Unbelievable, isn't it.

Leo

Ah, just located the longer bit of footage showing this charming settler (readers might be interested to know that this fraudulent footage was so convincing that even the Israeli mainstream media was fooled and gave it an airing on national Israeli TV):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kem1ajIKv1k&feature=related

John Richardson

find it hard to read again and again the words of astonishment written by Melanie concerning the level the bbc has fallen to. The bbc has been a jolly fellow traveler with the hard left for the best part of 25 years....."

David; top of the thread.

Yes, David.
Agreed.

So could someone explain why M. Philips, and all the rest, continue to fund the BBC?

At what point does the person paying the Piper become complicit?

Is it really credible to say; "They are scum and they are promoting evil. However, I choose to give them my money. It's not my fault."

I have no respect for..er..any jour...er...anyone, who takes that pathetic position.

How do you feel Melannie Philips ?

Armchair outrage.
Armchair morality.

Adam B.

Telling, isn't it, that on a thread dealing with the murders of the Fogel family, someone like Herzen limits himself to yet another negative comment about Jews.

It is demented.

C.Gee

The frolic and detour into Shapira's exposition on biblically authorized rules has not been illuminating. There is no doubt that the religious see the world religiously, that some of their calls to religious adherence reach the ears of fanatics and that fanatics carry out crimes in the name of religion. The point is that Israel's judicial code and rules of war stand independently of what God authorized - although those early rules and their justifications are still applied in war, despite being contrary to international agreements, by Israel's enemies against Israel and each other.

Tilly

Truthtriumphs

I gave you a link earlier which you declined to accept, saying it was up to me to quote Shapira's exact words (in Hebrew, presumably, which I don't read).

Taking your request for the text at face value, I can only assume that you haven't the faintest idea what Shapira said and your allegation of libel is therefore spurious (not to mention utterly absurd); this makes me wonder why you are so anxious to defend him... If, on the other hand, you DO have knowledge of the text and place a different interpretation on it from mine, why are you so unwilling to explain it?

Sorry, TT, but the overall inference I draw is that you simply refuse to entertain any criticism of any Zionist in any circumstances - however abhorrent his views and actions might be. This might make you a wonderfully loyal friend, but morally it stinks.

logdon

This is the PA which gets glowing endorsements and millions from the EU.

It's not just the BBC, this is systemic establishment endorsement of a barely concealed terror organisation whose only aim is not two states but one. That one is not Israel.

Press Release, March 13, 2011

Palestinian Authority incitement to terror
prior to the murders in Itamar

For more information call
Palestinian Media Watch at +972 (0)2-625-4140

by Itamar Marcus and Nan Jacques Zilberdik

palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=4793

C.Gee

Leo:

Do you know the background to these home-movies? Video cameras given by B'Tselem to Palestinians to record the oppression they suffer under? Are the incidents provoked for the nonce in order to get convincing footage? We have no idea of what happened before or after, we have no idea of how the film is edited. There is no one to contradict the self-serving accusations they hurl at "settlers". They are aptly called "Vigilante Videos."
I have seen several of them on Youtube, and the comments below them, which reveal greater hatred and violence against settlers and soldiers than the videos show settler and soldier hatred and violence against Palestinians.
Interesting that the exchange of insults between a Palestinian self-publicist and her Jewish neighbor should be adduced as evidence that the Palestinians are being pushed into slaughtering their neighbors. What a pity the Palestinian murdering the settlers did not film himself for B'Tselem.

david elder

Blades is relatively sober this time. But could he explain what he means by Israel's latest wars? To keep wars going since 1948, wouldn't even those perfidious Israelis need some help from opponents?

Herzen

C. Gee I think believes himself a dab hand at the "savage indignation" and believes he sees anti-semitism at every turn.

Someone expressed outrage at the murder BOTH of Israeli civilians AND of Palestinian civilians. This does not suit the "savage" etc. So the outrage has to be dubbed merely "pro forma", otherwise C. Gee wouldn't have the scope to hurl his insults with quite the righteous ire he so enjoys.

Who here is using this atrocity to make a political point?

Week in week out there is a catalogue of death and injury inflicted on Palestinian civilians, none of which gets the slightest mention on the BBC or in the Guardian, let alone here.

By all means express grief and outrage at this atrocity. Do not try to make political capital out of it.

Carl

Adam B - I see that you are quite happy to ignore the vile anti - Arab comments. What does that make you?

Derek BLADES

The Mail On-Line, 14 March 2011 carries this report:

"Jewish settlers shot dead a Palestinian girl while attacking homes in the West Bank city of Hebron today after the funeral of an Israeli soldier killed in a roadside ambush, Palestinian witnesses said.

Eight-year-old Neveen Jamjoum was shot while sitting just inside the doorway of her house, her mother said. Palestinian medical sources said nine Palestinians were wounded by gunfire.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-130282/Jewish-settlers-kill-Palestinian-girl.html#ixzz1GbzLcSKc

Leo

To C. Gee:

Your former Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, took a rather different view (and let's face it - the increasing amount of video footage forced his hand):
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3352098,00.html

I personally visited Hebron last month and it is what I saw during my visit there that sparked my interest in this subject matter. I personally witnessed some settler girls (teenagers) start taunting a few Palestinian kids with no prior provocation. It was disgusting to see and the Israeli solider standing nearby showed no interest in intervening. If you perpetually push and prod people like that, you're not going to engender goodwill, are you.

Tilly

C.Gee

Although I don't entirely share your confidence in the Israeli judiciary's effective control over religious challenges, I do appreciate your thoughtful and courteous response. Thanks.

charles soper

@Travis
Hear, hear. Get rid of your TV, use the internet for updates - you'll be surprised how liberating it is (apart from persistent disbelief from the TV licensing authorities).

Well written, Melanie.

Derek BLADES

Facts are not much regarded by many posters on this blog, but for those interested in statistics this might help in the debate:

In the 2 years up to February 2011, 19 Palestinian minors were killed by the Israeli security forces and 1 Israeli minor was killed by a Palestinian. Minors are those aged 17 or less: the youngest person included in the figures above was a Palestinian lad of 12.

To check my figures go to www.btselem.org and click on "statistics".

Adam B.

Tilly, how is this remotely relevant to this thread? And what wider point are you trying to make? That settlers have it coming?

Adam B.

C.Gee, excellent posts!

Maya

To Derek Blades

Please check your facts, sir. That happened in July 2002!!!!!

Truthtriumphs

Tilly.

March 14th, 2011 7:30pm
Truthtriumphs

"I gave you a link earlier which you declined to accept, saying it was up to me to quote Shapira's exact words (in Hebrew, presumably, which I don't read").

When you go into a court of law with an accusation, you cannot say to the judge... here's the link...figure it out for yourself.

You made an accusation to blacken a person's character, and now you admit that, even though you do not read Hebrew, it's your interpretation, based on hearsay.

Then:---
"Sorry, TT, but the overall inference I draw is that you simply refuse to entertain any criticism of any Zionist in any circumstances - however abhorrent his views and actions might be. This might make you a wonderfully loyal friend, but morally it stinks".

If there is any "moral stink", it's from someone giving a quote, out of context, from a language he doesn't understand, based on a translation from a "source" that no doubt, has its own agenda.

Grow up!

Herzen

C. Gee will accept that settlers assault Palestinians only if he sees sworn affidavits from the settlers themselves to that effect. If the settlers do not provide the said affidavits, there is clearly no case to answer. C. Gee is a stickler, don't you know, for due process.

Maya

Herzen
"Week in week out there is a catalogue of death and injury inflicted on Palestinian civilians, none of which gets the slightest mention on the BBC or in the Guardian, let alone here."

If they're not reported, how come YOU know about them, then? Do you have inside information? Which websites are you getting your information from? Links please.

Truthtriumphs

Derek BLADES
March 14th, 2011 9:33pm
The Mail On-Line, 14 March 2011 carries this report:

"Jewish settlers shot dead a Palestinian girl while attacking homes in the West Bank city of Hebron today after the funeral of an Israeli soldier killed in a roadside ambush, Palestinian witnesses said".

And, of course, they're reliable witnesses, aren't they, Balen-Blades?
Just like those who cooked up the Al Dura case, the Gaza beach "massacre", and so many others.
Wonderful how gullible you are when it comes to any and every accusation made against Jews/Israelis.

True to form!

Maya

Derek BLADES
Has it ever occurred to you, that these 'minors' are being exploited and used by their elders to become martyrs for the cause. They are encouraged to become suicide bombers, to lay explosives near the border, to be human shields etc etc.
I agree it's a terrible tragedy.
Just check it out for yourself.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/world/628666/more-children-being-used-as-suicide-bombers-un-expert

Adam B.

Herzen, thank you for your sensitivity in attacking settlers on a blog about five of them being murdered, three of them children.

Truthtriumphs

Derek BLADES

"Facts are not much regarded by many posters on this blog, but for those interested in statistics this might help in the debate":

In the 2 years up to February 2011, 19 Palestinian minors were killed by the Israeli security forces and 1 Israeli minor was killed by a Palestinian. Minors are those aged 17 or less: the youngest person included in the figures above was a Palestinian lad of 12".

No, Balen-Blades, it doesn't help, because, as you well know, context is all.
You have deliberately, and deceitfully omitted any context, to promote your own wicked agenda.

And still no answer from you re.the Balen report.
Why not?

Truthtriumphs

Herzen
March 14th, 2011 6:06pm

"It is surprising that you appear unaware of the use Halakhah has been put to by Rabbis at least since the 1950s. Shapira is far from uniquely vile".

No, he isn't uniquely vile, or vile at all!

Vile are people like you, who obviously have little, or no knowledge of halacha, but pretend they do, to promote their own nasty agenda.

I'll bet that you are one of those Jews for Justice types... they all speak the same language of certainty, about things they know little.

Len

Herzen, you're right on the mark with your comment to C. Gee.

Now, look what happens to have cropped up in the news today:
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4042311,00.html

So, Yifat Alkobi - settler neighbour from hell who featured in the video footage I've posted above - has been acquitted of assaulting a Palestinian child some 6 years ago. According to her defence team, this poor victim of a woman was subject to "Palestinian incitement" and that's why she forced stones into a 10 year old Palestinian child's mouth. Never mind that the charming Yifat has been caught on camera multiple times doing lots of ugly things. Never mind that Yosef Lapid - on watching footage of her - drew comparisons with the nasty anti-semites who used to taunt him as a young boy. No, this woman is a victim of incitement evidently.

Oh well, at least she was actually was charged with a crime (most settlers who engage in these activities never get charged).

Anyway, it's late so I'll head off to bed and try to erase the image of Yifat from my head!

Valerie Tyson

A story and analysis perfectly told. I couldn't agree more. Savage and barbaric.

Valerie

For Victoria (and her comment below), have you ever heard of "Pallywood?" The IDF does not murder children in the middle of the night - and be sure of this: there is NO moral equivalency between Israeli military and Palestinian Terrorists!

Steve

Blades,

According to your Mail article:

"...The meetings U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell will hold were expected to be the most senior U.S. contacts with the Palestinian Authority since President George W. Bush called last month for Yasser Arafat to be sidelined as Palestinian leader..."

So an ex Secretary of State is to meet Palestibian officials after an ex-president called for the side-lining of a dead terrorist.

A bit too keen to believe every bullshit story that supports your narrow World view aren't you? And now you look stupid don't you?

Michael Lumish

You are among the very strongest voices speaking in favor of the Jews and the Jewish state... and I thank you for that, Melanie.

Victoria

Maya

"It's obvious what you think should change.
Israel's very existence.
Thanks but no thanks."

How did you assume or imply that from my original post? Honestly you lobbyists. You'll only see what you want to see.

aelle

If you google the name of the 13 year old Palestinian girl reportedly shot dead by Israeli settlers a couple of days ago you will find exactly the same report with a dateline of July 2002.
The re-appearance of this news item almost a decade later reflects little credit on the journalistic credentials - if there are any - of the Daily Mail.
It took me ten seconds to find out that the Mail story was fabricated - presumably for propaganda purposes. I presume Blades took the report at face value, but it shows , in the moral cess-pit that exists - not , Melanie, here in the UK, but in the area of former Palestine west of the Jordan River, things are not always what they seem.
Personally I deplore and am saddened by every murderous atrocity that has occurred in this area over close to a century. The source of the bloodshed is to be found in mutually opposing attitudes of racial and religious intolerance, hatred and bigotry.
And the perpetrators, let it be said, come from both sides : the slaughter at Deir Yassin leads to the Hadassah medical convoy massacre : the cold blooded and morally repugnant murder of children finds an echo in the actions of Baruch Goldstein : and on and on and on it goes with sickening predictability, until, presumably , the final solution alluded to by one pro-Zionist apologist on this site; No - not the extermination of the Jews, which is unthinkable - but Israel's recourse to nuclear weapons - which threatens the existence, not merely of the two houses in the Middle East, but of Western civilisation in general.
As a Christian, I believe, with John Donne that
"any man's death diminishes me,
because I am involved in
mankind. "
This is no time to quibble over who inhabits the moral high ground - the uncomfortable truth is that no moral hign ground exists any longer - and unless the extremists on both sides are rejected by men of peace and common sense searching for a modus vivendi acceptable to everyone the likelihood is that, sooner or later, there will be no ground left to fight over.

Maya

Victoria
We are still waiting for the link about your statement about IDF killing a baby.
Please confirm the story or admit you made it up.

Maya

To Derek BLADES
The only reference to the incident cited by Victoria comes from the article, which you happened to come across.
Unfortunately, it comes from an incident which happened in July 2002, nearly 9 years ago.
We are still waiting for the link to the story which was reported by Victoria (and it seems only Victoria knows about it)and with which she tars many posters on here as hypocrites.
Well, I would suggest that using made up stories is not the best way to show your integrity.
It begs the question as to where you and she are getting all your information from.
If you produce this story from a reputable source, I will be only too happy to apologise.

Steve

aelle,

You are absolutely right, and for the member of a sect that has tortured, murdered and intimidated itself through the past 2,000 years, reasonably moral sounding.

But don't you see the point? All we hear about on the news and from brain -dead non-entities like Victoria on these forums, is Israeli atrocities, Israeli 'murder', Israeli apartheid, Israeli boycotts etc. There can be no solution until the powers that be do as you say, treat the victims and perpertrators equally and cut out all the 'Jews killed Jesus'/ 'Jews control the World' bull shit.

RoMo

This morning, March 15th, 2011, at 9.30am on Radio 4 they presented ‘Letters to the Arab World.’ In this particular edition ['from Palestine' as they introduced it] the speaker, who included himself as a participant in the First Intifada and who had studied here in London (naturally), was vitriolic in his hatred towards Israel while mouthing platitudes that he, like all Arabs and Egyptians and Israelis sought ‘peace.’ Israel was the stumbling block to peace. He saw no contradiction in that having introduced himself as someone who lives in Ramallah and who owns a car and can go on trips to Jericho and the Dead Sea, his life is thwarted by the ‘misery of the occupation.’

Once again the BBC shows how the organisation has lost its moral compass. Notwithstanding that a family of five was butchered by terrorists from the West Bank (where he lives) this last weekend, the powers-that-be saw no dilemma in transmitting a broadcast by someone who is against the ‘wall;’ participated in the tacit approval of suicide bombings and the maiming of the young and innocent and was simply a mouthpiece for the continued intransigence of the ‘Palestinian cause’

aelle

Steve,

Thank you - it is rare on this contentious board to find one contributor characterise another as 'absolutely right' and 'reasonably moral sounding'.

I will accept the compliments - even if qualified - with as much humility as I am able to muster.

One small point - personally I prefer to regard Christianity as a religion rather than a sect, but you are right to point out that the history of most religions is littered with examples of man's inhumanity to man. As Jonathan Swift observed
" We have just enough religion to make us hate, but not enough to make us love one another. "

But, unlike some contributors here, I am more concerned with the realities of life in the 21st century than with history, whether 3,000 or 100 years ago.

You are so right to say that
" victims and perpetrators " should receive equal treatment - by the media, by those seeking political solutions to ensure stability and peace in the area, and by all of us who as private individuals are concerned and distressed by the events reported.

I agree too that many of the contributors here appear capable only of seeing one side of the argument - but, on this site at least, for every Arab sympathising poster concealed behind an oh so sweet sounding English lady's name, there seem to be two or three aggressively macho pro-Zionists with Dr Ian Paisley's vision of tolerance and understanding.

The extremists from both both sides of the fence, or should it be the wall? - need to be exposed for the bigoted racists that they are; they must be marginalised and finally rejected, whether the hatred and violence they preach is directed at Arab or Jew in the area once known as part of Palestine.

This will never be easy, but at some stage the self perpetuating cycle of hatred and violence must stop. It is sad that this site which attracts so many passionate and informed contributors counts so few who seem to even desire to improve the situation.

Steve, you are an honourable exception, and I salute you.

Tilly

Adam B

The relevance of Yitzhak Shapira to this thread is to underline that killing children is NEVER justified.

Once you have a moral climate in which this principle is fudged or overridden, it is INEVITABLE that children will be murdered - not only by those who believe they are "sanctioned" to do so in your own camp but by killers in the enemy camp who feel similarly "sanctioned".

The usual argument which comes flying back at this point is that Israelis don't sanction the murder of children. Kids sometimes get killed during defensive military operations, but aren't "deliberately" targeted.

All I would ask you is this: If a rocket were fired on a settlement which was harbouring the murderers of Palestinian farmers, and Hamas subsequently issued a statement that they were very sorry that children were "collaterally" killed in the explosion, would this make the children's deaths any easier to bear?

Of course not. And so the moral collapse begins.

The borderline between war and murder is flimsy enough not to bear any further strain from irresponsible Rabbis and Imams who not only fail to stress the wrongness of child-killing but actually give it their blessing.

So are the settlers "asking for it"? Only in the sense that they live in communities which are in perpetual conflict with their neighbours, where atrocities are committed on a tit-for-tat basis as a matter of routine, and where moral sanction is readily available to killers and vandals on both sides. They are "asking for it" in the same way that I would be if I chose to live in a notoriously dangerous area of London where gun-toting gangs ruled the roost. Do I - or my children - "deserve" to suffer for settling there? Emphatically not. Must we EXPECT to suffer? I'm afraid, yes, we must.

David

Having just spent 3 days [during my computer time] trying to find one shard of evidence concerning what Victoria wrote about the Israel Defence Force killing a Palastinian baby I have come to the conclusion that she is a bloody lier. She made the lie up for one simple reason.....a Jewish family were slaughtered in a way our immaginations cant comprehend and in order to prevent anyone of us having sympathy with their suffering she lied about a fictional Palastinian baby being killed by fictional Jewsish killers. That is how much she cares about Plastinians....they are merely there to be conjured up like a circus act to belt the Jews over the head with everytime Jews get sympathy for being murdered by beasts. Your welcome back here anytime Victoria....we need something to laugh at during times of trouble.

Tilly

Truthtriumphs

This is not a court of law. You are not a judge. This is a blog and you are just another blogger.

Just thought I'd try to restore you to some semblance of normality.

C.Gee

“A culture celebrating martyrdom, self-sacrifice for the national cause, hatred of their oppressors is entirely normal. Acts of terror are the desperate, brutalised, last resort of people who have been denied any kind of normal life. Supporters of Israel shouldn't demand of the Palestinians something they would not demand of Jews placed in a similar predicament.”

Three sentences of sublime imbecility.

Aelle, when faced with this sort of view, does it not seem futile to appeal to good sense? Does it not seem futile to condemn extremism “on both sides” (naturally, else how could there be a “cycle of violence”) with a centre like this?

I appreciate, of course, that calling for moderation and peace, and deploring extremism on both sides is a comfortable moral place to be. Not the high ground - this is not the time for that, you say - but within easy reach of it. Just one thought to ponder in your inglenook: do you really want “victims and perpetrators” to be given equal treatment?

JOHN ROOSEVELT

aelle: "The extremists from both both sides of the fence, or should it be the wall? - need to be exposed for the bigoted racists that they are; they must be marginalised and finally rejected, whether the hatred and violence they preach is directed at Arab or Jew in the area once known as part of Palestine.

This will never be easy, but at some stage the self perpetuating cycle of hatred and violence must stop. It is sad that this site which attracts so many passionate and informed contributors counts so few who seem to even desire to improve the situation."

well, aelle, you sound like a nice person..but the main proble I have with your post is this:

..even if you dont eradicate extremism on the Israeli side, Israel could still make a peace that sticks. This, unfortunately cannot be said for the arab and moslem side..

...and also, it is simply not true that "at some stage the self perpetuating cycle of hatred and violence must stop." There is nothing to to make one believe this has to be the case, nor that it ever will be.

The task of making peace in the Middle East will never be possible if Islamism retains the power to upset any peace deal. I am not sure if that will ever happen and I am also not sure that that will happen before there is a major - possibly nuclear - conflagration in the region.

John blaimont

What about our "rock solid Zionist"? PM David Cameron not a word in Parliament about the victims-only condemnation of the "illegal Settlements"

Truthtriumphs

Tilly
March 15th, 2011 4:38pm
Truthtriumphs

"This is not a court of law. You are not a judge. This is a blog and you are just another blogger".

You have maligned someone on a public space, without real evidence.
You cannot even prove he said what he allegedly said, because, by your own admission, you cannot read the language it was said in.
I KNOW that what he allegedly said is nothing to do with Jewish law.... halacha.
Such comments are alien to Judaism.
That makes you a liar.

Barak at a white house

The true nature of the PA - LAW of PRISONERS.
http://israelmatzav.blogspot.com/2009/03/palestinian-authority-to-use-sharm.html
and in hebrew:
http://www.jcpa.org.il/JCPAHeb/Templates/showpage.asp?FID=762&DBID=1&LNGID=2&TMID=99&IID=25259

executive summery:
Note that the more they are in, the worse they did out.
According to Palestinian law, every Palestinian prisoner, Arab or Israeli Arab, imprisoned in an Israeli jail, is entitled to financial assistance from the Palestinian Authority, on condition he (or she) was sentenced for activity connected to the “struggle against the Israeli occupation.” During his entire prison stay every prisoner is entitled to a salary which ranges from 1,000 shekels for serving a term of one to five years, to 4,000 shekels for serving a term of more than 25 years. Furthermore, married prisoners receive an additional 3,000 shekels a month, 50 shekels for every child, and 300 shekels for prisoners living in the Jerusalem area. In addition, every prisoners receives an allotment directly to his prison commissary account and 800 shekels a year to buy clothes.

A bonus is given to every prisoner on release, and the sums vary from $500 for a prisoner who spent less than a year in prison, to $10,000 for those serving terms of 25 years or more. In addition, every prisoner is entitled to a job in a government office after release if his term lasted more than five years. As a way of honoring the activity of released terrorists and showing appreciation, each one who served a term of five to seven years in an Israeli prison is entitled to receive a job and the rank of captain in the security forces, and if the term was more than 25 years, he is entitled to the rank of deputy minister and of brigadier general with seniority. The time he spent in jail is also counted into his pension.

Tilly

Truthtriumphs

I'm pretty sure that no matter what quotes I supply, you will respond that they are inadequate because you require either the Hebrew, or page number, or full chapter, or fingerprints and DNA sample ... whatever gets Shapira off the hook in your eyes. Despite this, I have found a translation from the Hebrew of one relevant passage which I am prepared to waste my time copying for you.

In case you can't be bothered to read it, just bear a couple of things in mind:

1. If Shapira wants to sue for libel, he's going to spend the rest of his life in court - suing pretty well all the Israeli media and scores of websites.

2. As far as I can see, he has never made any statement that he DISAGREES with the halachas he lists. The closest I've come to a "defence" on this basis is from Beit El Rabbi Shlomo Aviner, who said the book was a "halachic-academic work, a pedagogical work" and there was therefore no justification for sending Shapira to prison. But before you get too excited by this, Aviner added that he was against the book's publication: "I do not think it is correct to write various halachas on killing a non-Jew, just as a Swede should not write about killing a Norwegian."

OK, now for the extended quote (source Coteret.com, citing an article in Maariv):

"Hindrances - babies are found many times in this situation. They block the way to rescue by their presence and do so completely by force. Nevertheless, they may be killed because their presence aids murder.

"There is justification for killing babies if it is clear they will grow up to harm us, and in such a situation they may be harmed deliberately, and not only during combat with adults.

"One must consider killing even babies who have not violated the seven Noahide laws, because of the future danger that will be caused if they are allowed to grow up as wicked as their parents."

On the subject of killing children to put pressure on leaders, I couldn't find a direct quote but this precis was given:

"The children of the leader may be harmed in order to apply pressure to him. If attacking the children of a wicked ruler will influence him not to behave wickedly they may be harmed."

Over to you, now, counsel for the Rabbi...

Steve

aelle

"Steve, you are an honourable exception, and I salute you"

Much as I appreciate the nice sentiment, I should divulge that I am neither Jewish, nor Israeli, nor an Arab from the region formerly known as Trans-Jordan / Ottoman conquered Palestine etc. so it is rather easy for me to be dispassionate about this issue.

I think you will find that what you largely get, in this country (UK) when discussing this issue is well informed and polite but resolute Jews (eg. Joshua, Grumpy Zionist etc.) rightly fighting their corner against knee Jerk Guardian reading bigots with no vested interest other than their own over-inflated sense of moral outrage (Blades, Victoria etc.).

To charactreize the apparently learned and well articulated points made by the likes of Adam B, Stephen Rothbart and Truth Triumphs as "aggressively macho" is, I think totally unfair. The only people that could possibly find these well constructed posts to be "ggressively mach" are those that have already closed their minds and apparently suffer a physical convulsion at the slight hint that one of their off-the-shelf prejudices may be wrong.

PS: I realise you Christians don't see yourselves as cult members. This is what makes you so harmless, or so dangerous, depending on your perspective

Steve

aelle

"Steve, you are an honourable exception, and I salute you"

Much as I appreciate the nice sentiment, I should divulge that I am neither Jewish, nor Israeli, nor an Arab from the region formerly known as Trans-Jordan / Ottoman conquered Palestine etc. so it is rather easy for me to be ‘balanced’ about this issue. Others have a little more at stake and have every right to express their views with passion.

I think you will find that what you largely get, in this country (UK) when discussing this issue is well informed and polite but resolute Jews (eg. Joshua, Grumpy Zionist etc.) rightly fighting their corner against knee Jerk Guardian reading bigots with no vested interest other than their own over-inflated sense of moral outrage (Blades, Victoria etc.).

To characterize the apparently learned and well articulated points made by the likes of Adam B, Stephen Rothbart and Truth Triumphs as "aggressively macho" is, I think totally absurd. The only people that could possibly find these well constructed posts to be "aggressively mach" are those that have already closed their minds and apparently suffer a physical convulsion at the slight hint that one of their off-the-shelf prejudices may be wrong.

PS: I realise you Christians don't see yourselves as cult members. This is what makes you so harmless, or so dangerous, depending on your perspective

Steve

C Gee

"do you really want “victims and perpetrators” to be given equal treatment?"

Actually I wrote that and you misunderstand. I didn't mean that victims should receive equal treatment to perpertrators, I meant that victims on both sides and perpertrators on both sides should receive equal support or condemnation as appropriate. Ie: In the exceedingly unlikely event that an Israeli citizen were to break into the house of an arab family and, with the express encouragement and support of the Israeli government, he or she were to butcher the whole family in cold blood then I would expect the Israeli to be condemened in exactly the same way as the 'Palestinian' savage that started all this.

It is only the likes of Blades and Victoria that don't understand the 'subtleties' of intent, incitement etc. and cannot imagine any sort of heirarchy of evil.

Adam B.

Tilly - "killing children is never justified". Just who was doing the killing here? The victims were Jews - and you turn the topic into an attack on Jews. So how does that make any sense?

Furthermore, the death of any child is indeed a tragedy - an equal tragedy. Yet there is ALL the difference in the world when one deliberately sets out to kill children, and expresses joy in the streets at their deaths (as we have witnessed in Palestinian areas this week), and the death of a child in military action against terror groups who make a point of operating within civilian population centres. It is the same problem British forces have faced in Afghanistan and elsewhere (and yes, there have been many child casualties there as well). In short, there are legitimate actions in war, and actions which are not. If you don't believe that, then admit your pacifism, because every war leads to the deaths of innocents. There is no "clean and tidy" war.

Derek BLADES

@ Steve and Maya.

You are both quite correct. I was mistaken in thinking that the Mail Online story about the death of the young Arab girl was a recent one. I was mislead by the 14 March 2011 dateline that appeared above the report. My apologies.

Your main point seems to be that since the eight-year old was shot to death by the IDF a few years ago we can forget about it. Have I got that right?

aelle

Steve,

Not that I was in fact making any assumptions at all about your religion, nationality, whatever, but, in the light of your unprompted disclosures it would seem that , aside from the matter of religion, which I have to say bothers you apparently rather more than it does me - I mean I go to Midnight Mass at St Judes on Christmas Eve and that's about it - we seem to have more in common than you might expect.

As for the comments on this site I agree with much of what you say - and I started out as a huge fan of Melanie Phillips outspoken critique of British society in the wake of 7/11 - since then her increasingly strident and near racist condemnation has left me ever more uncomfortable.

As Bob Dylan would have it ;
" Either I'm too sensitive,
Or else I'm getting soft.."

I recognise the validity of your characterisation of a number of regular contributors, though I think you are a shade generous to the rather ironically pseudonymed Truthtriumphs, and You have omitted to mention the admittedly unspeakable Augustus, whose postings somehow inexplicably seem to avoid the eye of both the moderators and the Commission for Racial Equality.

I take your point that those of us, neither Arab nor Jew, nor yet resident in Israel or the apparently non-existent Palestine, should defer to tyhose with first-hand experience of 21st century life there. I have to admit it is some years since I visited Israel as a guest of the family owning the King David Hotel and a number of others - I toured the country from North to South, visited a kibbutz on the Lebanese border and left with a huge respect for the dedication and industry of the Israelis I met, some of whom had participated in the founding of the State of Israel. I now feel I failed to appreciate or be shown the situation of the Palestinian Arabs who had been the relatively peaceful and non-nationalistic majority inhabitants of the area when Britain inherited colonial control of the area from the defunct Ottoman Empire.

Be that as it may, I would suggest you read the thoughts of Israelis such as Nahum Barnea and Gideon Levy as a healthy antidote to some of the more rabid outpourings on this site.

Peace be with you.

Laura

I haven't heard yet, but does anyone have proof that these murders have been committed by Palestinian terrorists? Or is that just a rush to an accusation? I am not taking either side. I just want to know what evidence we have as of now.

Steve

Aelle,

You are right to observe that religion bothers the hell out of me. Too often and throughout history it has merely been an excuse to degrade, humiliate, torture and murder others for the 'crime' of believing in a different fairy story. I respect anyones right to believe any mumbo-jumbo they want right until they start trying to ram it down someone elses throat. It seems to me, though, that one of the few 'sects' which doesn't proselytise and has no history of conquest is the one which is most demonized and consequently has the most right to stand up and fight. Their fairy stories puzzle me but I personally will not stand by and allow them to be de-graded by the moral inversions of the likes of Blades and I do not share your view of the posters you mention, particularly TT. When a cat is cornered it has every right to produce its' claws. If you actually think about the subject of the posts here, with a few notable exceptions, what you get is information, facts and statistics from one side and vast sweeping racist statements from the other side with the occasional argument over the minutiae of law from people who are just unable to admit the bloody obvious, that the legal position is bloody extremely complicated and the use of phrases like 'illegal settlements' 'occupation' etc. is stupid and naive.

Steve

Blades,

Once again your black & white brain fails to grasp a simple concept. I was not suggesting that the passing of an arbitrary period of time has some sort of dilutional effect on grief and tragedy (though actually, come to think of it, as a matter of fact it usually does) I was outing you for your desperate desire to believe anything that you think supports your racism.

It took a while but at least you admit you are wrong. Small progress.

Maya

Derek BLADES
"Your main point seems to be that since the eight-year old was shot to death by the IDF a few years ago we can forget about it. Have I got that right?"
No. You haven't got it right. Any death of an innocent, of whatever race or creed, is tragedy for ALL.
My point was that those who mourn the deliberate, horrific slaughter of a family including a tiny baby, ahould not be tarred as hypocrites by someone who makes up stories to prove a point.
It still begs the question of why you did not check the story out first before you jumped onto Victoria's bandwagon. She made up a story and you believed her.
Why did you believe her withour question? Because her view agrees with yours, and even though it was a lie you couldn't bring yourself to check.
That was the point.

Adam B.

Maya, well said. In addition, the fundamental point abou the deliberate premeditated murde of children, compared to the tragic but inevitable loss of life in legitimate military self-defence, is lost.

Tilly

Adam B

My attack is not on "Jews" but on morally degraded individuals who regard children as fair game in the pursuit of political ends and who exercise influence on others to feel the same way.

Imam or Rabbi, Nazi, Communist, or Democrat - none get off the hook as far as I am concerned if they give their blessing to the killing of children.

To put my stance into perspective, I regard the street celebrations of the Fogels' deaths as more obscene in many ways than the murders themselves. Those rejoicers had so lost touch with normal feelings of revulsion at the killing of children that one could only suppose they'd become monsters - literally inhuman.

But to leave it at that - fail to address WHAT reduces people to such a vile state - is, in effect, a toleration of monstrosity. (A bit like being confronted with a contagious disease, declaring it incurable, and either quarantining or culling the patients, rather than searching for the source of infection to prevent its future spread.)

So what's this got to do with Rabbi Yitzhak Shapira and similarly irresponsible Jewish figures? To me, they shed a great deal of light on what turns people into monsters. As a Jew myself, I find it almost impossible to imagine how any sane person could swallow the teachings of a deranged Imam - but I CAN see how this works when people with whom I have a natural affinity fall under the same spell.

The "sanction" Shapira and his ilk give to child-killing produces moral degradation not just among his own flock but by feeding off and into the rhetoric of equivalent clerics on the other side of the fence: "Look, those Jews are totally inhuman - they see nothing wrong in killing Muslim babies; the only way to deal with such monsters is to destroy them - and that includes the children, because they will grow up into monsters, too..."

(See my post to Truthtriumphs, March 15th, 8.17pm for Shapira's version of this "speech".)

As long as Israel remains "in denial" that this is happening, its ultimate destruction as a state is absolutely assured.

James Coleman

Just wondering if you've kept a count of how many Palestinian children that have been murdered by Israel?

C.Gee

Grrr. I can’t stand anymore squawking about Shapira.

"The relevance of Yitzhak Shapira to this thread is to underline that killing children is NEVER justified."

Who do you think you’re kidding? Shapira was brought into the discussion for the purpose of saying religious Jews approve of child-killing, so the Palestinians are not more savage than the Israelis, despite the evidence of that in the recent politically/religiously inspired slaughter of a Jewish family. In fact, Shapira was inserted into the discussion precisely in order to justify the Palestinian murder of Jewish children. He is otherwise of no relevance at all. Even as an example of a religious non-state agent fanatic, he is not equivalent to the murderer, who, after all, was not a lone fanatic, but deliberately killed in the name of Palestine at the bidding of a political organization who claims responsibility (gloats). So why mention him at all?

It is time you stopped the old shock ‘n horror routine over Judaic Law. From time to time anti-Zionists go fishing in that pond and bring up a scary old boot in the hope that it will prove Israel to be brutal and racist. Have you, Tilly, ever read any Judaic Law and its interpretations? Judaic Law has been mined for meaning and applicability to real and hypothetical situations over countless generations. The Laws are meant to cover every aspect of life and the scholars take examples - real or hypothetical - of situations to test the reach of the Law. No situation is to strange or unusual or unpleasant for the reach of the Law. What happens if an infant girl has been subjected to incest, may she marry? This is not to say that the Law advocated these behaviors, nor that they were normally practiced in Jewish society either then or now or any time in between. In any case, the interpretation of the Law is an ongoing process (unlike in Islam, by the way). Modern interpretations are very different from ancient ones, to fit modern situations. They often differ even from revered relatively recent thinkers like Maimonides (who, by the way, is held up as authority by anti-Zionists for the proposition that “love thy neighbor” only applies to Jews - to make the case that Jews do not have an inclusive idea of law or an understanding of the golden rule.)

The Laws were written at a time which simply did not have our understanding of civil and human rights, long before the Geneva Conventions, when war could routinely include the utter destruction - man, woman, and child - of the enemy, by hand. What is so interesting about the legal discussion in historical context, is that it actually demonstrates a move away from total war. It shows the emergence of a moral objection to wanton killing. It recognizes the “innocence” of children. It establishes the conditions for killing: when the child “gets in the way,” when it poses a long-term threat to the survival of the Jews , or for purposes of causing the enemy leader to change course. In fact, these child-killing conditions are recognized in modern times in some form - given that hand-to-hand combat is very rare: collateral damage (children in the midst of the action or used as shields by the enemy), self-defense (children used as soldiers), and killing of civilians to force leaders to surrender (Hiroshima).

But whatever the religious law said in past ages regarding the killing of children in war, Israel does NOT base its policies on ancient religious law.

Is Shapira influencing Israeli rules of war conduct? No.
Is his religious authority dominating among orthodox Jews? No.
Do modern religious interpretations of law advocate the deliberate killing of children? No.
Did he kill Palestinian children? No.
Does Israel deliberately target children in war? No.
Does Britain? No.
Do Palestinians? Yes.
How do they justify it ? The PLO/ Fatah regard the children of Jews are “in the way” - they are settlers and occupiers. The children of Jews are going to grow up, join the army, and be oppressors of Palestinians - they are long-term threats to the Palestinians. The Israelis “love life”, so if the Palestinians kill enough of the children, maybe it will persuade Jewish leaders (all adult Jews - as Israel is a democracy) to surrender. These are precisely the “justifications” provided by Shapira and defunct ancient law. And why are Jews enemy settlers and occupiers and not neighbors? Because they are the enemies of Islam.

Does Islamic culture justify the killing of children? Yes. Even their own. Iran sent young boys to clear minefields. The Palestinians use children as suicide-bombers, to provoke attacks, as booby-trapped bait, as pipe-bomb carriers, as shields, as props in propaganda movies.

Your attempt to suggest that Shapira’s views are what is turning Jews and Palestinians into monsters is absurd. You also seem to be quite oblivious to how your harping on Shapira reveals you to be determined to lay the blame for the atrocity upon the Jews, however much you claim to be horrified by the murder of Jewish children.

Steve

James Coleman,

The number of Palistinean children that have had their throats slit while they sleep by Israelis incited to do so by their political and religious leaders is ZERO.

Does that answer your question?

Adam B.

Tilly, I will tell you what reduces people to such a monstrous state. It is a religiously inspired indoctrination of racism and hatred. This manifests itself in the Palestinian school system (funded by the EU), in broadcasts on Palestinian TV and radio, articles in its state controlled press, and from the mouths of religious and political leaders. It is endemic in the society. According to the Pew Research Center, 97% of Palestinian Arabs hold antisemitic views - not just anti-Israel views, but specificaly racist, antisemitic views.

It is in this environment that a Palestinian breaks into the home of Jews, stabs them to death, and that such an act is celebrated on the Palestinian street.

Richard

C.Gee
March 16th, 2011 3:44pm
I agree that this is not the place to discuss the odious Shapira and his ilk - which makes your lengthy casuistry on the subject inappropriate.

Tilly

C.Gee

I have no quarrel with your summary of the way in which Jewish law has evolved. I've heard/read Muslim scholars distance themselves from Islamic fundamentalism using almost exactly the same words about the interpretation of Koranic injunctions. I have no quarrel with them either.

I do, however, worry greatly about the rest of your post to me. Try changing the words "Jew" to "Moslem", "Israeli" to "Palestinian", "anti-Semitic" to "Islamophobic" etc; then look at the sort of arguments appearing on various anti-Zionist websites. I think you will find the similarities rather too close for comfort.

Tilly

Adam B

I agree with your assessment almost entirely. The only real difference between us is that I don't see it as a one-way street in the ME context. (I'd also add political zealotry into the toxic mix).

Your citation of the Pew research interests me. It's quoted on several websites, sometimes stating 97% "disapprove" of Jews, sometimes "hate" Jews but the original report doesn't seem to have been retained on the Pew site, so don't know which is correct or how the question to respondents was phrased. If you've had any better luck, I'd appreciate guidance.

It also struck me while searching that Pew might have asked Israelis about their attitudes to Palestinians/Arabs/
Muslims (pretty well all the rest of the world has been questioned on this!) but again, no joy...

Charllie Stalsworth

It does not matter if the world does not see. Ha Shem's eye is like an eagle that sees above all things. He watched as evil ran its course and then He watched to see who would respond: Some responded with sorrow and compassion. Others responded with a false sense of accomplishment because they thought they did their god a favor, and then there were those who could not respond properly because they do not know that they do not know about "The Eye that sees all things."

Edward in the USA

Carl said: "Adam B - I see that you are quite happy to ignore the vile anti - Arab comments. What does that make you?"

Carl, In case you didn't know, Arabs are Semites too, so the comments are Anti-Semitic.

Deacon

These very same appologists, like The BBC, CNN, NEW YORK
TIMES, AND OTHERS, will get their rewards, for fronting these murderers, their turn will come, then iy will be too late.

Truthtriumphs

Steve.

Thank you!

CG

This is how racism manifests itself: you report on Israelis being killed - but not on Palestinians. They, after all are, in your eyes, just animals. Starange how history repeats itself - just with different players. I gues next you'll be crying for the introduction of a 'final solution'?

gareth

Well said David - except the BBC's continued decline is worthy of speaking out loud about , every day, every hour, every second and Melanie's hammer blows are inspirational.
There isn't a day when I don't comment on the BBC being twaddle with colleagues who are browsing the BBC/mainstream news - it's not deep stuff, the facts are plain - but where else does the average Joe get news? Al Jazeera? CNN? The Guardian? The Independent? Pravda?

The fight is only just beginning.

Max

Thank you melanie for bringing us the truth, and not what CNN & BCC wants us to know.

Jen06

What’s really horrifying is that this journalist is getting INVESTIGATED for her thoughts on this atrocity. In-freaking-vestigated! It’s a dangerous, dangerous path when one can’t express one’s feelings and opinions without having action such as this taken upon them. Oh, and incidentally, these people are savages. Hang in there, Melanie. You are the righteous one here.

Jen06

inayat
March 14th, 2011 8:25am

'...the moral depravity of the Arabs...'

Replace 'Arabs' with 'Jews' and I don't suppose you would be too happy, eh Mel?

When was the last time you heard about Israeli terrorists going anywhere to brutally slaughter anyone?

Ed

Wait, so when people are murdered now we have to refer to them as terrorists and not just murderers?? When did this start happening?

JoeAstroturf

Melanie I'm from New York and the New York Times is a rag. They went to new lows now like you said. If the Muslim Brotherhood thinks their going to hide this story they can forget about it. Thanks for telling the truth about these animals

janeo

Winston Churchill is rolling in his grave...as is King John,who against his better judgement signed the Magna Carta...as if anyone cares about western civilization-if she needs funds to defend herself let me know

Pete

it’s not the Arab massacre of a Jewish family which has jeopardised ‘peace prospects’ -- because the Israelis will quite rightly never trust any agreement with such savages

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Well there you strike the heart of the matter Melanie. All Palestinians are savages and so never ever to be trusted, they must be coralled and imprisoned and we must teach them the enlightened way of the west, and whenever they strike back, it isn't because we have deprived them of their basic human rights, no, it's because they are no better than monkeys and need to be eradicated. And of course it's not Israel's fault that it's completely paranoid and refuses to trust anyone. No, it's the fault of those 'savages' who don't know the meaning of the word trust and so need to be pre emptorally beaten before they have a chance to abuse it.

Of all the benighted drivel you have ever written phillips, this really takes the biscuit. This sentence bears all the hallmarks of Apartheidism, and worse, racial neo nazism. Now we really get to see what you really think and quite frankly this article should land you in jail if there were any justice in this world. Whatever the crimes of the murderers, you branding an entire people as savages is pure racism. If you have any sense you will apologise immediately, shut your mouth and keep your head down as you deserve to be sacked for this article.

BDC

Tell it like it is Melanie! Thank you for your voice!

Bill Hayden

May God richly bless Melanie Phillips and grant her the honor she deserves; but most of all, grant her protection from the violent ones as well as the cowardly dhimmis of the politically correct left .

Eric Lyle

Well said Melanie.

I understand you are to be investigated for telling the truth.

Seems to be all the fashion nowadays.

Good luck and you have the support of millions.

David Catleugh

The Arabs responsible for what happened to the Fogel family, and those that applauded their actions, were indeed barbaric savages. Has anybody got a better description for them, after what they did?

Dina

Bless you a thousand times, Melanie, for not being afraid to tell it like it really is! You are a beacon of truth in a sick, perverted world! Just keep on being who and what you are, I will always support you and not be afraid of telling people that I do!

Dan W.

Mealnie Philips is a bright shiing beacon in an upside down, inside out world. Thank you, Melanie!

tommy

Five members of the Fogel family are dead and we still cannot face the fact that these were religious muslims obeying the diktats of islam and following the example of their 1400 year old prophet-- the best example for all of mankind..
Meanwhile in Egypt
Muslims Burn Down Church then Kill the Protestors
So far we know at least 13 people were killed and around 150 have been wounded
http://goo.gl/UHwZP
also a tale of two Pakistani women
http://goo.gl/PYJtC

Joseph Dooley

Keep writing, Melanie! Don't let the dhimmi media and dhimmi government keep you from writing the truth about the genocidally ambitious Palestinians.

Alexis

Dearest Ms. Phillips, BRAVA and more power to you! Along with Spectator editor - you stand as beacons of truth and reason, when these principles are in fact being turned on their heads (moral inversion as you aptly put it). Those at the BBC, NY Times, CNN, etc. are those who should be reprimanded and taken up on charges of inciting hatred, and outright lies. What they perpetrate doesn't remotely deserve the title of "reporting" - it's tendentious blather! These individuals at BBC, et al honestly think themselves the intellectual superiors of most others, and their hate-mongering thinly veiled in "journalistic rhetoric" as a public service - outrageous! Thank goodness for the advent of blogs and social networks, where more of your excellent commentary and fact dissemination can reach an even wider audience. Again, kol ha'kavod v'yasher koach - all due respect and more power to you! Blessings to you and yours of health, joy and prosperity...

Victor Ray

I am neither Jewish nor a fan of Israel’s continued settlements in disputed lands, however I am disgusted that my family shed blood for the defense country that investigates speech such as Melanie Phillip’s blog post regarding the slaughter of this family, particularly the children. Ms. Phillips remarks do not call anyone to violence and I am at a complete loss as to what other words you would use to describe anyone (Arab or otherwise) who would murder an infant and then celebrate it, if savage is not correct because “savage” is the most “civilized” term that comes to my mind.

Victor Ray
Orange County, California, USA

DaveP

This sort of massacre of Jews or Israelis, targeting women, children and even babies, has been going on for decades.

The rationale of the terrorists is that by killing women and children, particularly girls, they not only kill the girls but stop future generations to even come about. Thus killing one girl, stops the existence of around 4 of her children, and maybe upto 8 grandchildren, and so on.

What Israelis need to realise is that a new form of Holocaust or extermination is being perpetrated - one in which future generations do not come about either by killing a females, or encouraging many women to leave Israel to safeguard their offspring- the natural instinct of all women.

As long as Israel stays on the backfoot, either intellectually or militarily, these kinds of acts will occur, with the MSM either dragging its foot or wilfully blind.

Jim Brown

Very seldom agree with you, Melanie,but on this one you are 100% right. I know from my time in the forces and too long in the pubs of Cambridgeshire, that the average Brit, particularly what is called the "working class", supports Israel almost to a man.

You can't treat with scum!

Pete

Melanie, deal time: I'll swap you a link to the graphic pictures of the slain Fogels for several dozen links to the graphic pictures of quite nameless Arab families slain by Israeli fighter jets. Can we share our horror for all of the dead? Or MUST I be assumed impervious to Jewish suffering if I am to express anger at equally dead, but browner, non-Jewish babies?

Also, I think your reference to "Arabs", general, as "barbarians" is disgusting. Shame to see this kind of fascistic sentiment on a mainstream journal site. Guess that's why I don't hang round here too often. Furthermore, your claim that the US is just 'promoting' the Arab cause is both grave and hilarious, considering they're largely responsible for the continuing settlements by refusing to condemn them at the UN, unlike the rest of the world.

John Sobieski

And now it transpires that it was the PA security was behind the atrocity:
So how right were you?
And the Muslims celebrate the murders with sweets handed out in the street.
I think the UK media should hang their heads in shame and all aid to Palestine curtailed.

Adam B.

Thus Pete demonstrates his moral equivalency argument - the deliberate and pre-meditated murder of innocents being, in his mind, equivalent to the tragic loss of innocents in legitimate self-defence against terror groups.

I suppose Pete, that you consider an absolute moral equivalence between the 7/7 suicide bombers on the London Underground to British forces in Afghanistan? We could find pictures of dead Afghans too you know.

Tilly

John Sobieski

It does NOT "transpire" that Palestine security personnel were connected to the Fogel murders. All there has been is a claim by a website - WND - to this effect. It is dated March 16th, gives no source for the claim, and - unsurprisingly - has not been followed up by either WND or any of the Israeli media.

Reason? The story is a bunch of total, utter garbage.

If you want to see an equally rubbishy piece of wishful thinking, look up various websites claiming that the murderer was an Asian worker angry at not having been paid by the Fogels.

Alternatively - don't believe "news" you read on the internet until you've checked against mainstream media reports. And don't EVER pass it on uncritically - there are more than enough lies and delusions circulating with your adding to them.

Truthtriumphs

Tilly
March 22nd, 2011 4:13pm
John Sobieski

"It does NOT "transpire" that Palestine security personnel were connected to the Fogel murders. All there has been is a claim by a website - WND - to this effect. It is dated March 16th, gives no source for the claim, and - unsurprisingly - has not been followed up by either WND or any of the Israeli media.
Reason? The story is a bunch of total, utter garbage".

Tilly, the source of all wisdom has ordained it, so true ,it must be.
Evidence?
And,
"Alternatively - don't believe "news" you read on the internet until you've checked against mainstream media reports."

So, lets' see, the Guardian and Indy, which are MSM, are purveyors of the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, are they?

You mean like that disgraceful leader in the Guardian, (just one example of many), blaming Israel for the Jenin "massacre", and then apologising, reluctantly, weeks later?

No one can accuse you of having no sense of humour!

Tilly

Truthtriumphs

How to work out what is true and what is false: a lesson for beginners and total simpletons -

A story appears on a mickey-mouse website. It says it has "learned" that Palestinian security personnel are being questioned on suspicion of involvement with a murder which has attracted worldwide media attention. This is a HUGE development in the investigation if true. Yet seven days later, not a single paper or broadcast outlet has mentioned this amazing - and shocking -development. Not a single confirmatory comment has been made by any police, government, or military source whatsoever. The only mention of it is by other mickey-mouse websites.

Does this suggest the story is (a) True, (b) False?

Well, Truthtrimphs...?

"Please, Miss, I think the correct answer is (a) True!"

So, there you go, class. If Truthtriumph thinks it's true, then it must be...all together now...

FALSE!

This story, TT, is no more believable than a fairytale for three-year-olds. The "evidence" you seek lies in the simple common sense God ought to have given you.

The mainstream media might sometimes make dreadful mistakes but these errors are nearly always publicly challenged and ultimately corrected. If you are sceptical of newspapers and broadcasters (which you SHOULD be), then all the more reason to doubt the word of unregulated, unaccountable, amateur bloggers and twitters with axes to grind.

Tsippi Rudy, Los Angeles, California

Thank you so much for calling a spade a goddamned shovel.It is high time a Western journalist told the truth about the murders of Israeli civilians.
And Derek Blades, how can you term the cold-blooded murders of the Fogel family "executions" while calling the legitimate actions of the IDF in response to Gazan shelling of Israel "barbarous killing"? Despicable double standard!!

Simon Boas

If it emerges that the real culprit was a Thai worker, which is hotly rumoured here (and which is being prevented from being reported by an Israeli news blackout), will Melanie and her idioticv acolytes below apologise for their racism? Will Israel reverse the decision to build 500 new settlement units? I guess I already know the answer to both questions.

Les Westley

Hi Melanie. Just in the middle of writing to my MP about the unfairness of your being reported to the PCC. over your comments - utter madness.
In my opinion you have every right to call a spade a spade. If accurate then you are quite correct in calling the murderers by their national titles and describing their moral state.
Whilst accusing you of racism and bigotry, it's a shame that the Brothers have forgotten that the Arabs are systematically teaching their children that all Jews are monkeys and pigs!! One-way-streetism? Where are the two-way human rights in all this?
We admire you for your bravery in going against what is basically a Communist based Government in the making and calling 'a spade a spade' on many moral issues that used to underpin our nation but are now being discarded. Thank you for that.
God bless you and we will remember you in our prayers.

C de Roiste

Barbaric attack indeed and to be rightly condemned.

Now to the other side of Melanie's agenda: what exactly are the legal and moral rights that Jewish settlers have in the West Bank?

David

Dear Melanie, Once again, let me say that Britain is a lost cause. I have no doubt that you could make a grand living,blogging in the USA. Your many fans would welcome you.

Malcolm E Baker

I want to register my support for Melanie Phillips, a voice of sanity in this insane nation of the UK. Melanie should be knighted not beheaded!
Malcolm E Baker

Eli, Kiryat Ono, Israel

Dear Melanie. I have been writing in blogs and talkbacks that the so called "liberals" are accomplices in a second Holocaust that may befall the remaining Jewish people in Israel. They encourage incitement that is the engine of genocide. Our government has been saying this loud and clear but all of us are IGNORED in the West while barbarism of Arabs is encouraged.My only explanation to this absurd is age old antisemitism. Europe could not care less when 6 million of my people were murdered there and they are shamelessly encouraging another genocide in what you rightly call Armchair Barbarism. May God bless you for your honesty and courage.

Jeremy

to C. de Roist
'Now to the other side of Melanie's agenda: what exactly are the legal and moral rights that Jewish settlers have in the West Bank?'

Only that the "West Bank" is the old country of the Jews, the kingdom of David, from which they were expelled by your fellow Europeans - the Roman's, and, after suffering persecution and genocide, again, by your fellow Europeans, they finally made it back to their old country. Instead of kicking out the Arab invaders, they simply wanted to live peacefully, side by side, while bringing progress and prosperity to the whole region. Instead, the Arab squatters have been murdering Jews in the land for at least 150 years, simply because they are Jews (and that includes the Hebron Massacre of 1929, where 70 Jews who lived in Hebron for centuries, were murdered by their Arab neighbours). So the Arab sport of murdering Jews has not started with the "settlers" my friend. Perhaps if you knew the full truth of this conflict, and the history of the region, you wouldn't be asking this question!

Jim

100%with you on this; you are right on. What we refer to as the main stream media over here is a sham and a travesty. they are nothing more than shills for barbarian, savages and killers.
JD

Hank

We need to learn from Assad how to deal with critics:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread156515/pg1

Sean Mullin

This is an outragous article. The perpetrators of this crime have not been caught, there is not a shred of evidence they are Palestinian, Abbas has condemned the crimes as "inhuman". The assumption that the perpetrators are Palestinian (or "Arab" as the author of this piece repeats time and again even though that is not the term the group in question would use to describe themselves) is racist. It is one which has been repeated time and time and again by both the Israeli and world press. The perpetrators of this crime are barabrians: not the Palestinians, they didn't all do it. An idiot could see that. Sources close to Itamar suggest that the Israeli authorities started rounding up Thai Immigrant workers days after score of Palestinian men were arrested. The authorities refuse to comment on this, but rumours persist that a Thai immigrant worker was owed money by Mr Fogel, whose brother, incidently, stood at his graveside and asked the media not to turn the deaths into a national event. The person who wrote this article is either deeply dishonest, a really bad journalist or a bit mad. I'm based 10 miles from Itamar and have been viewing developments from close range. this is absolute nonsense and anybody who buys it is an idiot or a bigot.

Kashif

This is sad state of affairs. No human being should be quite on killing of innocent people. This is shameful and disgusting. However what about millions of Palestinians living subhuman life in their own land or abroad in camps while their land is occupied by foreign Jewish settlers, How if the the 20% people of foreign origin living in London occupy this city and put the majority in camps and sub jails? How would you people feel about it. Do you know that Jews only made 10% or less of the total population of Palestine in 1905.
It seems if hundreds of Palestinian children die that does not matter but a couple of Jew children mater more. Are Palestinian children subhuman animals???
Why Israel does not talk to the ARABs on land for peace??

Katherine

Excellent!!! Every sentence in this story is not only true, but justly deserved. Unfortunately, the "liberal media" will never change their tune until all the Israelis are dead. Upon which, they will offer up shock and a little belated concern, and then move on to their next ill-conceived and hypocritical cause.

The perpetrators of this slaughter and those who celebrated it are not human. But to call them animals is an insult to animals. They are evil incarnate and no amount of praying to God will remove the stain from their claws. I hope the screams of those dying children echo in their ears forever.

Katherine

Do what we are doing in America..The New York Times readership has fallen dramatically....The ratings for CNN in America are almost nil....The major liberal networks are dying from lack of viewers...with few exceptions, almost all liberal newspapers are deeply in the red...

We stopped watching and reading those papers or networks which offended us. And we supported those which didn't.

By the way BBC America is not doing very well.

Adam B.

Katherine

I am glad to hear these hateful left wing "news" outlets are going the way of the dinosaurs.

Silvapro

Dear Melanie Philips,
I am all with you and for what you do. I hope you will still tell the truth and the left-wing intimidation and "inquisition" methods will not shut your mouth!
Bless you!

Eli, Kiryat Ono, Israel

Thank you so much Ms. Philips for this article and your courage in exposing the armchair barbarism. As an Israeli I have been watching with great concern the shower of lies, hatred and incitement pouring in upon us from Europe. Our Holocaust started with incitement so your articles are a ray of light in a darkening scene. Please keep up your work and, hopefully, now that the barbarism in the Arab world is so visible there may be more people in Britain who will realize where truth is.

Martyn Winters

Aren't both sides on the side of evil in this instance? We should be unequivocal in our condemnation of violence irrespective of its originators. It doesn't matter who started or perpetuated this; the fact is children on both sides of the fence are being killed. We should express our repugnance at this in the sternest of terms. Scapegoating the BBC, the British Government or anyone other than Israel or the Palestinian participants in this conflict is cretinous beyond belief.