Melanie in Wonderland

Ben Woodfinden

Melanie,

Thank you for your honest reporting. The alliance between the secular left and the islamists is exposed best when they defend arab atrocities.

Please don't give in to the PC agenda and apologize to these people. Stand by your words and remain one of the few voices of truth left in the media today.

DIPLOMAD

You must be doing something right to elicit that sot of hatred!

Bill Rees

I have to say lady .... I think you're one of the few people not afraid to speak the truth to the modern world, which contains so much hatred.

You say what should be said, and you pinpoint the degeneracy of the compromises that so many people are prepared to make with evil.

You think clearly, and argue cogently. If only our politicians would follow your example.

Liberal Conservative

I recall that about a year ago, a user of the Guardian discussion forum caused a minor scandal when he wrote that the settlers should be "slaughtered, every man woman and child" (his exact words) if they refused to quit the disputed territories. The comment was deleted but appallingly the moderators didn't ban him until a few weeks afterwards.

At the time, I thought he was a freak. Having read some of the comments on your last four blog posts, I'm not so sure that he was such an aberration after all.

john brown

Don't let the amoral, lying creeps get you down, Melanie. Evidently "hate speech" is more newsworthy than the cutting of a babie's throat.

"In a time of universal deceit - telling the truth is a revolutionary act."

Truthtriumphs

Previous comment should have read...37 million unique hits a month for Comment is Free.

Joshua

Robin Shepherd writes (at the link provided above by Melanie Phillips):

'Melanie Phillips being investigated by police for refering to Arab "Savages" who murdered Jewish family'

Ms. Phillips needs to change her name to Dreyfus. Really, Britain has become every bit as morally addled, at least so far as the Jewish people are concerned, as the France of the 1890s and the early 1900s.

Omar

Melanie. You said in your article that 'that Arabs' murdered those poor people. You KNOW damn well that you were tarring 300 million people with the same brush. Deal with it and sort yourself out.

'The Arabs'. Do you get it? Do you see? You are a perfectly articulate woman. Take OWNERSHIP of what you wrote and just say you went over the top. Is that too much?

cityca

Well said again Melanie. Please do continue to observe and comment on the terrifying malaise that has changed the UK from what it once was to a land where only some can freely speak their minds.

It's unlikely but if the vile Bunglawala succeeds in getting the police to prosecute, the trial will be an opportunity to finally get some media coverage of the atrocity committed on the Fogel family by those savages.

More power to you.

Merlyn

Nice picture of you in the Guardian though..

jzsnake

Give em hell Melanie!

zelda

Melanie,

I have much admiration for you. Stay strong and safe.

James

Well, Mo Ma is certainly a sad case and more to be pitied than anything else. No civilized person takes that sort of disgusting bile seriously when directed at someone like Ms Phillips, someone with whom I disagree on most things (except climate change) but who is a serious,informed and civilised commentator.

But give Mo Ma this. He/she got some acknowledgement from Ms Phillips. Whereas my many attemps to get onto this blog with what is, I'd like to belive, a civilized question, never gets on, let alone- and crucially - answered.

My simple question is this. What precisely does Ms Phillips see as a (and I use that word again) 'civilised' solution to the situation in the Middle East?

From my reading of her writing, my impression is that Ms Phillips favours an Eretz Israel which is largely ethnically cleansed of non Jews. A plausible argument perhaps, and if put unambiguously, clarifies associated arguement.

And a truly precise response to this question includes a precise definition of borders. Again, from her writings, I shrewdly suspect Ms Phillips might be in support of an Eretz Israel as defined in the Pentateuch.

What we do get from Ms Phillips is unambiguous - one might say furious - defence of Israel - which I would also want to defend, but with a more Haaretz tone. But the settlements and settlers!?! (Perhaps the reality is that 'civilised' is a culpably naive criterion in all the historical circumstances.)

But come on Mel! Chuck the whimsical ambiguity! Maintain that 'take-no-enemies' tone of last week's article and tell us what - precisely - should be the endgame.

Steven Green

I'd say nice own goal Inayat – I really hope that the PCC and the Police do launch a big investigation and then the denizens of this now benighted country will see what the fifth columnists like Bunglawala are all about. Oh and didn’t Mr Bunglawala once use some pretty inflammatory language about one Salman Rushdie – something about death being too good for him? Was that incitement to murder perhaps? Hmm it seems its always one rule for muslims and another for the kafirs huh?

Human Being

Quick point to John Brown, it is "baby" not "babie."

Any life taken in such a way is dreadful and unjustified.

But can we not talk of the hundreds of Palestinian babies who have been murdered by Israel, or do we have a case of selected amnesia going on here?

I wonder if Melanie would be so happy to spew such vile hatred against all Israelis or Jews on the whole each time a Palestinian child is cruelly and unnecessarily murdered. Yep. didn't think so.

d1carter

Mel, don't let the thugs get you down. Keep telling the truth as you see it. I will stand with you and defend your right.

Pete

Hi Melanie.

I must say that I've only just read last week's article, but on reading it I was so appalled that I've sent an email to your editor asking for your resignation. The reasons I have detailed in my email which he may show you, however I will quickly outline them again.

The atrocity you are reporting is indeed an atrocity, however it was comitted by one person. By your use of the ethnic word Arab, you apply the blame for this atrocity to every single Arab in the world, some several hundred million innocent women and children. You accuse every single one of them of depravity, barbarity and savagery when you are really talking about the depravity, barbarity and savagery of one single individual. In labeling so many innocent individuals, and connecting them with such a heinous crime of which 99% of whom were not even in the same country, you increase the likelihood of racist attacks on innocents. The trust between Arabs and the West drops even further than it already is. Your remarks are inflammatory, racist and will cause more conflict rather than solving it.

You may well have received some nasty comments. But your original article was nasty in itself. Instead of trying to defend yourself and your indefensible remarks, perhaps you should apologise to the millions of Arabs minus one around the world who had nothing to do with the atrocity in Israel. Perhaps you should take a little time to reflect on your actions when the very fact that you are receiving nasty comments proves that you have done nothing but inflame the situation and cause more conflict.

And the reason I have emailed calling for your resignation is because you damn well know it and you damn well go out of your way to cause that conflict and I have the appalling feeling that you actually enjoy it as this post above tries to depict you as the victim of an anti israeli conspiracy.

I have no doubt my email will be ignored, and I have no doubt that you will continue to maintain your righteousness in calling a hundred million innocent men women and children depraved savage barbarians, but please don't play the innocent game when some of those aggrived people, accused for no reason other than their ethnicity, turn round and start biting back, because, with your attitude, I would happily hand you over to them, and I think your editor is foolish in not doing so.

Jerry

The poet Yevtushenko has a line hidden in one of his poem to this effect:

Terrible are the times when the simple act of speaking the truth is called an act of courage.

Thank you, Melanie

Noam Ayal

This is only the latest in a long series of events where a "Muslim" or an "Arab" is offended. Where is the offense to the barbaric act which prompted his complaint. Where is the former famous British sense of fair play and just plain common sense.

rippon

Inyat Bunglawala’s point is valid:

Melanie Phillips’ words: “the Israelis will quite rightly never trust any agreement with such savages”

Now, the Israelis would be making an agreement with *Arabs*, not with the particular people who slaughtered the Fogel family.

Thus, by “savages”, Phillips is referring to *Arabs*, not to the particular people who slaughtered the Fogel family.

Moreover, Phillips other words: “the moral depravity of the Arabs”

These words refer to *Arabs*. If Phillips does +not+ mean to suggest that the ethnic group Arabs is morally depraved, then she should have used different words. (For example, “these Arabs” could have been a clear reference to the Arabs who did the slaughter.) The fact that Phillips chose +not+ to use a specific rather than general reference to Arab people suggests that Phillips does indeed mean to say that Arabs as a group are morally depraved.

Now, the Gaza massacre of 2008/9 can be referred to as a savage act. But no one would accept statements suggesting that, just because some Jewish people (IDF) have committed savage acts, therefore *Jews* are morally depraved and savages.

r.camillo

Melanie, could you please, if you can, give the readers a clear brief history of the legal and political history of the Jewish state, with particular reference to the settlement issues.You may be surprised at the number of people, some highly educated, who are not anti-semitic, but believe that the Israeli's are occupying land that does not belong to them, and has made them sympathetic to the Palestinians. The left wing press won't do this for obvious reasons. I am surprised at how many people take this stance.

Esther

You seem to have really got Moma's goat, Mel :)

Archie

Not to worry, Miss Phillips, Mo Ma is probably short for Mohammed something-or-other and so is to be expected. Wonder what his/her parentage might be? Obviously not erudite linguists!

Mark Allinson

There are many of us here in Australia who are with you 100%, Melanie.

I can remember when Great Britain really was great.

kate

I don't like what you write. I find your last few posts offensive. But I'm more than happy for you to write them: partly because of freedom of speech, partly because I think your style of writing and rhetoric is sufficiently unbalanced, in every sense, for the lay reader to be alienated rather than persuaded.

Interestingly most of the links suggest that a different paragraph in your post was the one that is in question. For me it was the following extract that I found unpleasant:

"The Arabs who broke into the Fogels’ house and went from room to room murdering the family, slitting their throats while they slept, did so because they reach a psychotic state of ecstasy from murdering Jews.

We know that because the Arabs in Gaza handed out sweets and rejoiced at the slaughter. We know it because we have seen it before many times: Arab hands being dipped exultantly in the blood of the Israeli victims they have butchered. We know it because the Palestinian Authority-controlled media, mosques and educational materials tell their children that it is the greatest glory and a religious duty to kill Jews. We know it because the Palestinian Authority names squares and streets after such genocidal murders in order to honour their deeds.

This is not merely terrorism. This is a depraved death cult -- one adopted by the direct heirs to the Arabs of inter-war Palestine who formed Hitler’s Middle East legion. And their present-day descendants use the very same Nazi motifs and tactics of psychopathic dehumanisation of the Jews to incite their murder."

Specifically the reasons why I dislike this are:

(1) the two bits of actual "fact" are inaccurate. Show me a piece of PA educational material that says that it is the greatest glory and a religious duty to kill Jews. Show me a street of square named after a terrorist bomber by the Palestinian Authority (not the local municipality or Fatah). You may think that these are quibbles, but if you are going to make such severe accusations against someone it is incumbent upon you to be exactingly true and correct.

(2) The other elements of this passage are not specific accusations but broader charges: "Arab hands being dipped exultantly in the blood of the Israeli victims they have butchered". I certainly haven't seen this "many times". Not literally. And to use it here figuratively is a low tactic of demagoguery.

(3) The real reason why this bit of your blog is unpleasant is because you start with the killers of the Fogel family and step by little step end up with all Arabs. It's an old trick that has been used many times on the Jews themselves (another reason I find it so repellent).

But, as a Frenchie once said, I might find everything you write ignorant and hateful but I'll fight to defend your right to say it. As ever, you test the boundaries of such liberalism but I don't think you've persuaded me otherwise yet.

AllanS

Mo sounds a cheerful chap...

Stephanie Tohill

To be honest I agree with freedom of speech and even though I didn't like your language you should have the right to speak as you wish.

Furthermore in allowing you that freedom to talk about the 'moral depravity of the arabs' it lays out very plainly, for all to see, your own anti-Arab racism and also your hypocrisy: had someone referred to the 'moral depravity of The Jews' you would have been crying anti-semetism.

Lesbert

Melanie,
I have to say how much I admire your clarity of thought and ability put things in the right perspective.
I'm am still amazed by the Cultural suicide that is taking place in the UK, and disappointed by the easy way out taken by UK Jews who immediately side with the anti-Israeli lobby.
Keep spreading the light

laurence

Keep at it Melanie.

I wonder what shining beacon of civilisation blessed us with 'Mo Ma'? Such dazzling wordplay and linguistic complexity reveal a mind completely untouched by intelligence. A Guardian column surely awaits.

Mike

Keep on keeping on, you speak for those who can't sod the idiots.

Yedidya S

God bless you. Keep telling the truth.

alan

I believe that the police should investigate the complainants for wasting police time, also check their computers to see if these people are using double standards.

Dai of Edinburgh

Their hysterical verbiage is straight from the debauched hearts of rabid, ravenous wolves.

Simon

This is an example of why we are all doomed

I am seriously looking into moving abroad

AY

So then, who they are, all these Middle Eastern terror monsters, - Saddafi-Ben-Zawalaki-Nasrallas, and thousands of their militias' foot soldier cannibals ravaging the Middle East and beyond, with beheadings, mass murders, cross-border terrorism, arms smuggling, hostage takings etc.?

Oh let us not call them Arabs that is offensive.

Let us call them democratically elected anti-imperialist freedom fighters, martyrs and deprived innocent people.

And this is Arab spring don't forget, - a blossom of great awakening.. these were just first flowers.

Graeme

Melanie, take no notice of these people, who send you this sort of abuse. It actually means they have no real argument to present.If they had any concrete arguments, they would use these and not use abuse.

Bob

Kate says: "Show me a piece of PA educational material that says that it is the greatest glory and a religious duty to kill Jews"

Kate, there is no shortage of proudly displayed such material, but it is all in Arabic.

However there is the MIDDLE EAST MEDIA RESEARCH INSTITUTE
http://www.memri.org/

Where they translate much of this sort of dialogue. You will find this worth a visit.

Trumpeldor

"you think i am an extremist, my words are nothing compared to your evil words, you filthy woman. your father is a dog"

This guy sticks to classical coranic tenet associating Jews with dogs ..............

Andy Gill

Well done Melanie. I endorse every word you wrote.

Celebrating the murder of three innocent children, like they did in Gaza, is something that could only happen in a depraved and degenrate society.

Keep stamping hard on the foul ideology of Islamofascism. The vast majority of ordinary Brits are thoroughly sick of it, and applaud your forthright words.

B.Roozendaal

Mr Bunglawala should do well to remember that, like Muslims, Arabs do not constitute a race. They are Arabs because they speak Arabic. Pointing out that Arabs stand morality on its head when they murder a Jewish family in Israel (and subsequently hand out sweets to celebrate) can therefore never be racist. If Mr Bunglawala wishes to deflect attention from this atrocity he should use the words 'politically incorrect'.

Hedy

Kate the frenchie deserves a name and a correct quote!
Voltair “I do not agree with a word that you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”
Melanie this is the 1930 again only much worse. You are a very brave person Thank you.

maxsceptic

"...and your father smells of elderberries."

A true Monty Python world.

Mike Wood

If you ain't drawing flak, you ain't over the target.

Mr Sponge

Melanie, love it, what would we do without you.

Mr Sponge

Funny but the ONLY "media" outlet tht tells it like it is is the Daily Mash.

Here is their take on Libya (and Iraq gets a accurate mention)

http://bit.ly/hpMuyV

Truthtriumphs

Stephanie Tohill
March 21st, 2011 6:24am

"Furthermore in allowing you that freedom to talk about the 'moral depravity of the arabs' it lays out very plainly, for all to see, your own anti-Arab racism and also your hypocrisy: had someone referred to the 'moral depravity of The Jews' you would have been crying anti-semetism".

Sorry but you will find that Jews don't behave like that.

Find one incident where a Jew will deliberately decapitate a 3 month-old baby, or stab a pregnant woman to death, as happened to the daughter- in law of friends of ours.
And please don't come up with the tripe that there is no difference between that, and children killed in legitmate acts of self defence.

Jeremy Havardi

The savages referred to are not just the individuals who planned and slaughtered 5 innocent people but all those who encourage, incite and procure the acts of terrorism against Jews - oh and those who celebrate those actions when they occur. Not just one person in other words.
www.jeremyhavardi.com

john brown

@Human Being

How very kind of you to correct my spelling. You sound like a fun chap. Thank's also for the splendid "whataboutery"; made me feel like I was on CIF.

Just a thought; if it was a "palestinian" family that was butchered in their sleep by a jew, do you think the media would have, pace Gaza 2009, paid it a bit more attention?

As a (culturally) Christain European, I feel thoroughly ashamed that, once again, we are excusing/ignoring anti-semitic savagery (and yes, hamas/hizbollah & their supporters are, like the nazis, hateful savages who are seemingly only responsive to violence and brutality), and cowering behind an increasingly flimsy guise of PC doublethink to excuse contemporary barbarism and fascism

Truthtriumphs

http://cifwatch.com/2011/03/21/standwithus-press-release-condemning-anti-jewish-hate-speech-and-violent-attack-at-soas/#comment-43591

We shall see how the police will busy themselves with this....
or will there be a government directive not to inflame Muslim sensibilities?

One law for them and one for us!

rudolph camillo

My second comment on this topic. Stick with it Melanie. People like you are indispensable.

Raymond

For all you criticising Melanie, give her a break ! The killing of the Fogel family, including that poor baby, would be enough to send anyone to use "intemperate" language. Melanie is only human after all. For my part, I say God bless you Melanie. I also pass on my deepest sympathies to the remaining members of the Fogle family

mark

That the Arabs who commited the atrocity are savages there can be no doubt.

The fact that you referred to "the Arabs" may well, have ben a slip of the pen. Easy mistake to make.

If that is the case then just say so, then everyone knows where you stand. The fact that someone has got the law involved should not stop you form taking this ethical action. People who follow you need to know where you are coming from and as a journalist of some influence and repute you have a responsibility to do this.

Rubin Katz

How else would one aptly describe those who slit throats of babies and cut off heads of hostages and parade it live on TV, but stone-age savages. I suppose the liberal-left, the politically correct brigade and other appeasers would have us label them freedom fighters! If we are not to be allowed to excercise our free speech and do not wake up to reality - we are lost as a free people. The lights are slowly but surely going out in Britain and all over Europe. I saw it last time round. I arrived here 65 years ago as a survivor from Poland and I don't recognise my adoptive country anymore and no longer see it as the 'land of the free'.

Melanie - don't let the dark forces stifle the last remaining eloquent voice for freedom in this country.

Power to your pen!

Rita

WOW, talk about a perfect example of "projecting" ...

kate

Dear Bob

I know MEMRI well. I read Arabic. What you can say about PA textbooks is (as the most recent US State Department report says):

"The PA Ministry of Education and Higher Education completed the revision of its primary and secondary textbooks in 2006. International academics concluded the textbooks did not incite violence against Jews, but showed imbalance, bias, and inaccuracy. Some maps in Palestinian textbooks did not depict the current political reality, showing neither Israel nor the settlements. Palestinian textbooks, used in Palestinian schools, as well as in Jerusalem municipality-administered schools in East Jerusalem, inconsistently defined the 1967 borders and failed to label areas and cities with both Arabic and Hebrew names."

That is, I'm sure you'll agree, not the same as saying PA educational material teaches children that "it is the greatest glory and a religious duty to kill Jews".

Those same independent academics (incidentally) have also pointed out that Israeli textbooks are similarly "unbalanced" and present a one-sided view of history.

As I said earlier, if you are going to throw around such very serious accusations you need to be 100 per cent accurate. Melanie is not. I suppose that this is partly because, as a blog, she is not being held to the same standards of journalism as a news article. But then she can't be surprised if she doesn't bother to do the basic research that we don't take her seriously.

Ronnie

Every single aspect of and every single comment on this dreadful tragedy shows us why there will never be peace in the Middle East.

Ben Carter

'You must be doing something right to elicit that sot of hatred!'

Pretty much spot on. Go go Melanie!

Miranda Rose Smith

Mike Wood
March 21st, 2011 9:35am
If you ain't drawing flak, you ain't over the target.

Dear Mr. Wood: BRAVO!!!!

Mjolnir de Jersiaise

How I pine for the, now long gone, halcyon days of pre-Islamic Britain. Now we have the likes of Bunglawala, with the support of the British establishment, policing our thoughts and shrieking at us every time we dare to speak.

Matt

I would just like to echo the supportive statements here. Thank you Melanie.

Rita

When I talked about "projecting" I referred to the vomit by ‘Mo Ma’, of course! (Just in case that was not clear).

Miranda Rose Smith

Ronnie
March 21st, 2011 10:46am
Every single aspect of and every single comment on this dreadful tragedy shows us why there will never be peace in the Middle East

Dear Ronnie: It wasn't a tragedy. It was a massacre.

boneywasawarrior

Melanie

Keep it up. Your writing is important because it draws the the guardianistas and associated moronic brethren out into the open and reveals them for what they are - a waste of space and food.

Hoob

Melanie, you are simply the best.

Denis Cooper

Melanie

As I've said before, I very much hope that the investigation by Bedfordshire police results in your prosecution for what you wrote.

Not because I bear you any ill-will, or because I believe that you've done anything which merits criminal charges, but because we need a high-profile case with a well-funded defence to challenge laws on "hate speech" which should never have been passed and which should be repealed.

However for precisely that reason I doubt that the CPS will decide that you should be prosecuted.

Rather than risk having the wrongness of these laws to suppress legitimate free speech fully exposed in court, with the possibility that a jury would see how wrong they are and refuse to convict, the government would much prefer to keep them available to constantly intimidate ordinary men and woman who would be less able to defend themselves.

Truthtriumphs

r.camillo
March 21st, 2011 4:37am

"Melanie, could you please, if you can, give the readers a clear brief history of the legal and political history of the Jewish state, with particular reference to the settlement issues.You may be surprised at the number of people, some highly educated, who are not anti-semitic, but believe that the Israeli's are occupying land that does not belong to them, and has made them sympathetic to the Palestinians. The left wing press won't do this for obvious reasons. I am surprised at how many people take this stance".

I am posting this again--- hope it helps.

1)Following WW1 and the defeat of the Turks, the Ottoman Empire which spanned the Middle East for 400 years, was divided up by the British and French, and new countries were created, namely Iraq (British jurisdiction),and Syria and lebanon (French jurisdiction).
The whole geographical area known as Palestine was designated to the Jews (British jurisdiction) in recognition of their historic connection to the land.
In 1922, Churchill awarded the land east of the Jordan river to the Hashemite dynasty, in recognition of the help it gave Britain defeating the Turks, and Abdullah became King of the newly created Trans-Jordan, which covered some 77% of historic Palestine.

In 1922, the 51 member states of The league of Nations unanimously ratified a document called "The Mandate for Palestine" which called for the Jewish national homeland to be RE-CREATED in Palestine in the area West of the Jordan river, and called for "close settlement" of this area by Jews, which also included Gaza and the Golan heights.
Jews were not allowed to settle on land east of the Jordan river.
The Arabs, in the main (most of whom were immigrants from Syria and Egypt) did not accept this and there were riots, and ethnic cleansing of Jews from areas such as Hebron in 1929.
btw, the Mandate document specified that there should be religious and civil rights for the non-Jews in the future Jewish state, but not political
rights.
When the league of Nations was superceded by the UN, the "Mandate for Palestine" was incorporated into Article 80 of the UN Charter, which, in the absence of any agreement to end hostilities, remains the legal status of the area to the present day.
There were many attempts to placate the Arabs, by whittling down the size of the future Jewish state, but were never accepted by them.
Finally, the UN, in 1947, proposed a partition of Palestine, giving the Jews a very small proportion of the original area.
The Jews accepted, reluctantly,
(Jerusalem was excluded), and the Arabs rejected.
It was put to a vote in the UN in November 1947, and passed.(Resolution 181)
In the following May, on declaration of statehood, 5 Arab armies attacked the fledgling state, but the new state survived (just!).
Then Trans-Jordan made a land-grab of the West Bank, and annexed it, in a move which was recognised only by Great Britain and Pakistan (but minus recognition of the annexation of Jerusalem).
It became Jordan.
Egypt illegally annexed Gaza and Syria, ditto the Golan.
In 1967, Israel again won a defensive war against the combined armies of Egypt, Syria and Jordan, and by the time the ceasefire was called, had reached the Golan, the Jordan river and the Sinai peninsula up to the Nile.
Israel's offer to withdraw totally to the armistice lines of 1948 (the so-called Green line)in return for peace was rejected out of hand at the Arab summit at Khartoum, which issued a statement known as the 3 NOs... no peace, no negotiation, no recognition.
Subsequently, Egypt made peace, in return for the Sinai in its entirety.
Jordan made peace, but gave up all claims to the West Bank, which was never legally theirs.

2)The UN then passed Resolution 242, calling on Israel to withdraw from territories, deliberately omitting the definite article, in return for a cessation of hostilities from the Arab side, (which has never happened).
Israel started to re-settle some of the areas which had legally belonged to Jews before 1948, such as the Etzion bloc, near Jerusalem, for which Jews held the title deeds, and Hebron, in both instances from whence they had been driven out.
Interestingly, although the status of the WB remains legally part of the Jewish state, before any new settlement was formed, every government of whatever hue consulted with a specialist lawyer called Plia Albeck, to ensure that it was built on state land and not privately owned land.
She was an expert in the field and consulted British and Ottoman law before sanctioning the building of every new settlement.

3)There is also the legal precedent of land won in a victorious, defensive war.
In a landmark ruling, Judge Stephen Schwebel, one time head of the International Court of Justice, the court of the UN, ruled in 1970, that where a country had won territory in a defensive war, and that territory had previously been taken by force (ie, by Jordan), then the victor (ie.Israel) had the better title.
Indeed, following WW11, the Axis powers lost land that had been theirs, such as Germany losing the Sudetenland, and other lands which went to Poland.
There are many such examples, and there are never demands to return them.
The only exception seems to be Israel.

It's also worth remembering that the reason that East Jerusalem is often called Arab East Jerusalem, is because in 1948, the Jews were ethnically cleansed from there.
The only time during 2,000 years that there were no Jews in the old city of Jerusalem, was between 1948 and 1967.
The oldest and holiest Jewish cemetery on Mount of Olives is in East Jerusalem, (3,000 years old) as is the Western Wall, so to call new Jewish suburbs in East Jerusalem, settlements, is absurd, and designed to undermine Jewish legitimacy there.

The reason why Western and other powerful nations perpetuate the myth of illegal settlements, when they are no such thing, is because it suits them--- they need Arab oil and Arab/Muslim markets to trade with.
It's expediency.

4)The only people to have enjoyed sovereignty (countries called Judah and Israel)in the geographical area of Palestine were the Jews.
No independent country of Palestine ever existed--- neither was there ever a Palestinian people--- that is a myth.
The name "Palestine" was given by the Romans, when they were victorious against the Jews (AD 70),and wanted to obliterate the names of Israel and Judah forever.

NB.Space did not allow me to quote other rulings in Israel's favour.

Eva Kalina

Every good wish to you, Melanie,

1

Dear Kate,

As you can see at Palestinian Media Watch, your so-called 'peaceful-new textbooks', do in fact teach hate and God-driven violence.

Download the report here and take a look:

http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=122

And your assertion that Israel's books are "one-sided" is ludicrous - the truth only has one side. But considering that was concluded by the same academics who lied about the Pal's so clearly, it's quite obvious that facts don't matter to them.

You sound like a reasonable individaul; I recommend you to subscribe to Palwatch, and also buy this book:

http://www.amazon.com/Legal-Foundation-Borders-Israel-International/dp/9657344522

Regards,
1.

SaraNYC

Strange world when it takes guts to be truthful. Thanks Melanie for being heroically fearless for all of us who look to the likes of talented you to shout the evident truth over the heads of the cringing, appeasing olitico & MSM.

DougS

I don't think that 'MO Ma' is going to be nominated for the Nobel Prize for Literature!

EC

The Jihad on free speech in the western democracies continues apace. It's only a matter of time, Melanie, before a prominent journalist or some other public figure in the UK is hauled into the dock. The show trials of Geert Wilders in Holland, Mark Steyn in Canada, Elisabeth Sabaditsch-Wolff in Austria, Lars Hedegaard in Denmark map the scale on organisation of the attack.

The attack on the of freedom of speech has been enabled by 'hate speech' and 'equality' legislation drafted and enacted wherever left wing governments have managed to get elected, in the EU and elsewhere. These laws were a trojan horse. On the one hand they were seemingly innocuous, carefully crafted to appeal to guilt stricken wet liberal consciences of the political classes, but on the other hand they were draconian in nature, making it almost impossible for people to speak out against unrestricted immigration policies and the hostile religious intolerance of certain immigrant groups.

Do not forget that causing offence, even to a third party, is now a criminal offence! Also, let us not forget that Harman's 2010 "Equality Act" contained this particular trojan horse and that this law was nodded through by David Cameron and Theresa May.

http://bit.ly/a3Cyeg

As one of the most strident and one of the very few journalists that dare to speak out on issues such as the Jihad against Israel and the West, and also the AGW fraud, you must have been on the 'hit list' of various groups eager to see you silenced.

Good luck, and may the farce be with you!

Tilly

Melanie

You fully intended your words to hurt. Why, then, act the innocent when the barb strikes home and those who feel injured try to shut you up?

It's like the response of a schoolchild who shouts "Christ killers!" at Jewish kids in the playground and expects them to meekly submit, murmuring "sticks and stones ..." Heaven forefend that they should ask a teacher to intervene - "that's SNEAKING!" the bully cries to loud yells of support from his mates.

What the bully would infinitely prefer, of course is a punch on the nose. Then he can bravely show his wounds to the headmaster saying, "See, I was right about those Jewish kids being bloodthirsty maniacs!" and demanding their expulsion.

Sorry, Melanie, but if you insist on your right to say whatever you please, then you've got to accept that others have a right to defend themselves with whatever lawful means they have at their disposal.

Ann

'You must be doing something right to elicit that sort of hatred!'

Spot on. Don't let the bastards get you down, Mel.

I too, hope there will be a court case, because it's high time to throw out this Thought Police attitude that is destroying Britain, now sadly well on the way to Islamification.

Omar: learn to read. Nobody said 'THE Arabs'.

MWR in NH

Ms Phillips, you know you're on the right side of an argument when all the usual suspects come out against you. Good on you! As Lady Thatcher said, now is not the time to go wobbly!

Herzen

Truthtriumphs
March 21st, 2011 11:32am
Oh, you are a one! Never knowingly put your prejudices to the test. Merely repeat them, loudly.

Herzen

1
"And your assertion that Israel's books are "one-sided" is ludicrous - the truth only has one side."

It is an absolute joy to read your contributions. This one is beyond price.

Jerry

There are those like "Kate" who see the generalization of Arabs as untrustworthy as incorrect and destructive to society's values. My guess is that the only way to change her mind about such sweeping statements is if she and/or those she loves become targets of such animus.

Let her define for herself - publicly, if she would - at what point one should, of right, begin to see the exceptions as benign and altruistic and the group as evil, rather than the usual case where evil is assigned to the individual perpetrator of heinous acts.

cyllan

why arent jewish people complaining to the press complaints commission and the police for what it is common hate speech in so many blogs all the time?

Sergio I.N.

My best wishes to Ms Phillips.
I hope that, in trying to gain 'Arab' or 'Muslim' support for the operations in Lybia, she is not transformed into a scape-goat, which is a real possibility since the coalition will try to do whatever they can to demonstrate they are their allies and care for them (even more than for theirs).
I also suppose there will be many UN resolutions against Israel in the short-term as another form of appeasement.
We can only wait and see.

James

I acknowledge and appreciate inclusion on this blog of my frequently asked question on Ms. Phillips precise solution to the conflict in the Midle East - defined borders etc.

Thank you webmaster.

Now all I need to make me happy in a clear answer.

David

Just keep doing what your doing Melanie.....just keep right on at it. The Fogel family died in hideous cicumstances and your rage against the garbage in the media who sneered at their murder are getting the hard slap across the back of the head they deserve. The time has come for the lies about Israel to stop....it feeds hate and leads to attacks and murder...the latest attack being the one in the link below...

http://tundratabloids.com/2011/03/jewish-pro-israel-protester-bitten-on-cheek-by-middle-eastern-looking-man.html

David

Mo Ma says that Melanie's Father is Dog!!! By that she must mean, sweet, loyal, endless friendship, beautiful, playful, steadfast, brave, patient and strong.

LA

Keep fighting for truth & freedom Melanie. You bless those of us that don't have your literary and journalistic talents.

Jim

To ` Mo Ma ` - ROFLMAO .

With apologies to Melanie .

Velhos Fatos

Dear Ms. Phillips,

People like you are the only hope Israel has these days. Stay strong and never give up on the truth.

You should have been Israel's prime minister. I'd vote for you.

Thank you for your courage.

Joseph F. McNulty

I have written hundreds of blog posts over the years, and the only ones that were ever deep-sixed are those to the stalwart Melanie Phillips on The Spectator site. Why were they rejected? Were they full of disreputable hate? No. They simply voiced sentimants that are politically incorrect. It is amazing that England, font of the concept of free speech, has become so dhimmified, seeming overnight. We all admire the plucky England that stood alone in 1940 and resisted Hitler. That was a different world and may as well have been 1540. Churchill would be a stranger in a strage land today. Is no one in England ashamed? I suppose this blog post will also be suppressed. I imagine The Spectator (not even The Guardian!) does not want anyone to know how censored and dhimmified the comments really are. The irony is that this is just what Melanie Phillips opposes. Enoch Powell, thou should be living at this hour. At the time that he said it, his comments were rejected and mocked, but he was rigth about unrestricted immigration, and now we see the costs, the destruction of the English realm of free speech.

Frank P

EC @12.08pm

Great post! One little quibble -'strident'? That's a word that is usually used in a pejorative sense, isn't it? Noted that you used it in two separate posts on Melanie's m.o. I've never viewed her heard her delivery as 'strident'. Forthright - yeah and verily! Sometimes lacerating? Definitely (and always justified). But in the main her dulcet tones belie the steel backbone, I would have thought. Just sayin'...

Not questioning your vocab, btw; which I know to be extensive and subtle, just noting that it jarred a bit in the eye of this old culture warrior.

Derek BLADES

In his complaint about Melanie's blog, Inayat Bunglawala, wrote this:

"I think there can be little question that if someone were to write on a national newspaper or magazine website about ‘the moral depravity of the Jews’ and describe them as being ‘savages’ then that person would very promptly – and very rightly – be charged with incitement to racial hatred."

That is a fair and measured response to what can only be described as an hysterical blog.

Dave M

Odd that dogs are used as insults. I happen to work a lot with German Shepherd dogs and think human beings could learn a lot from our canine friends. They also proved invaluable during 9/11, searching for buried bodies in the ruins.

Frank P

Jim

'Mo Ma' - aka Rod?

Reasonable suspicion? Maybe not ... perhaps MM just reads Rod and it's osmosis.

Nick

A small point, but an important one.

Do we know for sure that the killer(s) of the Fogels was Palestinian? Or are we just assuming that? (Is it impossible for the murderer to be Israeli?)

Velhos Fatos

Dear Ms. Phillips,

People like you are the only hope Israel has these days. Stay strong and never give up on the truth.

You should have been Israel's prime minister. I'd vote for you.

Thank you for your courage.

gareth gardiner

revealing to see how many racists read the Spectator and agree with MS Phillips views..of course murdergin babies is dispicable..but to tarnish ALL Arabs with the actions of several individuals probably driven crazy by the injustice of the system and their own impotence, the zionists taking their land, and the Apartheid nature of Israeli society obviosuly favoured by Phillips

Owen Morgan

If this attack on truth and sanity ever comes to court, Melanie, I pledge a thousand pounds of my own money to your defence. You provide the courage and eloquence that I lack.

Pat Dolan

I have written to two of these media outlets about their reporting on this and will be taking them on to the PCC. the two faced hypocrisy of these people leaves me almost speechless.

-Ed.

My father was a Badger, and my mother a Marie. One of my best friends today is a dog. A close family friend has a pet goat named Daisy; she's not the cleanest animal, but she's far from filthy. All goats are hairy, and their milk provides a most wonderful cheese.

Eugene

Thank you for taking a such a courageous stance in this frighteningly Orwellian world.

Omar

Another Truth Teller under attack by a corrupt, PC state. We must all be as fearless as possible in the face of such intimidatory tactics.

Robert Snodgrass

Melanie, your a hero and a brave women. I see you on debate shows sometimes and whlst your enemies become aggresive and begin foaming at the mouth, you stay completely calm and use facts and figures as opposed to insults to WIN the debate. Your up there with the best of em'

BalaamsAss

Melanie, you obviously hit a raw nerve there. Keep at it, please, keep at it. You are the voice of one crying in the wilderness.

Cynic

Melanie,
Your apt description of the savagery displayed will always upset those of the honour/shame culture and bring forth a tirade of invective.
Maybe "savages' is not quite the correct term because as the lion will kill the offspring of another lion to be able to foster its lineage so analogously those "savages" accomplish the same end but as animals.

John Richardson

M. Philips.

Why would you ignore honest and reasoned criticism?
Then, choose to highlight twisted incoherent, garbbled gibberish, as above?

What does this achieve?

I do not understand how this can give you any satisfaction.
I do not understand how ignoring honest criticism whilst highlighting internet/blog trash is helping anyone; here or abroad.

kate

Jerry - a good question. But I think you have been a little tricksy in your wording. You start with the word "untrustworthy" and move seamlessly to "evil". They are not the same thing - they are far enough apart on any spectrum to be treated as different propositions.

Like anyone (who is being honest with themselves) I am perfectly capable of generalising about large groups of people. I will, for example, happily say that Palestinians are spoilt and incompetent though I know many who are neither. But "evil": that's a pretty tough category in which to lump people. Nazi high command? Yes. Japanese imperial staff? Yes. SS officer class? Yes. Izzedin Al Qassam brigades? Yes. Arabs? All 300 million of them. No. Palestinians? No. And, since you ask, Israelis, the IDF, people living in settlements? No.

Since I've answered the question (I think I can do it only by examples rather than by criteria) I'd be interested in your response. Do you think consider Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims as groups to be "evil"?

David

Just want to voice my support as Robin Shepard advises. Top piece and I'll recommend "The World Turned Upside Down" to every Guardian reader I know.

Shaun Harbord.

Hopefully you will not be prosecuted by the Police or censured by the PCC. I defnd your right to say what you said even though it is, in my opinion, both irresponsible and racist. So be it. Blogs like this are where such battles should be fought.

Lipa

Bless yer Melanie (kinda like the Mel P moniker). A lonely brave but just voice in the wilderness. Keep telling it as it is and not as so many try to distort it

Richard

This is surely just the tried and tested trick of demagogues: give deliberate offense and then bask in the martyrdom when someone takes offense.

Celato

cyllan:

Jewish people do complain about hate speech (though maybe as far as blogs are concerned Melanie's purple rhetoric on Arabs and Muslims is considered retribution enough).

I found a wonderful example of aptly-targeted complaining:

The comedian Frankie Boyle said on the BBC: "If you imagine Palestine is a cake - well, imagine that cake is being punched to pieces by a very angry Jew."

Disgraceful or what? You bet your life it was! Following a complaint, the Beeb was forced to issue a grovelling apology, saying the use of the word "Jew" in that context was "inappropriate and offensive".

Melanie, of course, didn't go NEARLY that offensively far to deserve any kind of censure - and she's also only dealing with the PCC, which tends not to be quite as hard on hate speech as the BBC is...But keep on cheering, folks, it would be awful to think of poor Mel being slapped with a limp wet kipper.

Augustus

Derek Blades - What you now describe as 'a hysterical blog'
i.e. 'Armchair barbarism' was I
notice quite full of your contributions (six at least), starting with "I understand Ms Phillips outrage at this barbarous execution of a Jewish family." So if you thought it then so hysterical why didn't you say so? Or are you just a convenient mouthpiece for Muslims, however hysterically
indignant they pretend to act.

John Steadman

In support of Melanie Phillips and freedom of expression.

logdon

Perhaps the police should be looking at Bunglawala

' “Inayat introduced me to the murabbi, or instructor, a middle-aged, clean-shaven Palestinian called Abu Luqman….

…..Abu Luqman told us that, during his youth, he had been a student of the firebrand Palestinian cleric Shaikh Ahmed Yasin. One of the reasons these gatherings were so valued was because we believed Abu Luqman was a true Palestinian, trained by Shaikh Yasin and a member of Hamas. Abu Luqman’s deep and powerful hatred of Israelis and Jews was unmistakable. Many time he promised destruction of the state of Israel and the return of Muslim control of the Holy Land. I sat there and accepted this. The Palestinian hatred of the Jews, as occupiers of Palestine, that I had detected in Nabhani was equally strong in Abu Luqman. Neither Inayat nor myself questioned any of this. Jew bashing was an acceptable part of the Islamist curriculum though not necessarily accepted throughout the ISB…

….Among Islamists I was a ‘brother’. I was not to dispute our unquestioned perceptions: hatred of Jews, Hindus, Americans, gays, the subordination of women…..

…every Wednesday night Inayat would pick me up and drop me off after a session of Koran recitation, religious discussion, anti-Semitism, and good food.”

cifwatch.com/tag/inayat-bunglawala/

Jim Urquhart

Dear Melanie,

I have nothing to add to most of the previous comments, but would like to register my 100% support for your brave, articulate and informed stance against the madness, hysteria and mendacity which poses as informed comment in much of the UK media on the subject of Israel. .

EC

Frank P, March 21st, 2011 2:18pm.

Yes, it was a bad choice of word that could be misinterpreted. I used it to mean "boldly assertive" and not in any pejorative sense. I like that the fact that she stand firm in defiance of the many forces ranged against her.

I hope that you are still reading this thread Frank because I think that you'll enjoy this. Here is some vintage Maggie turning the accusation of 'stridency' back on to Neil Kinnock before proceeding to quietly and deftly gut him!

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hb77cZAH9aM

Watching this video makes me realise how inadequate recent party leaders (of all parties) have been when compared with Margaret Thatcher.

Nicholas

I wonder where "Pete" who thinks just one Arab is responsible for this atrocity has been for the last fifty years of depraved terrorism across the globe. Where does it all come from Pete, who is responsible, in whose name and why? It can be pretty much summed up in one word.

Eldar

I've noticed many Muslims or people that support them for some reason can't control their emotions. They are using very threatening/dirty kind of language and expect people over internet to be scared of them. I guess for that reason Israel is hated, for not being scared of this cheap threats.

logdon

Seems like Pickles isn't all that interested in what's going on in his 'communities'.

Maybe I'm in the wrong one?

This is an important test of our defence against the growing and malignant Islamic restriction of free speech in Britain and all I get when posting the information to Pickles is this...

This is an automatically generated Delivery Status Notification.

Delivery to the following recipients failed.

Eric.Pickles@communities.gsi.gov.uk

wonderer

If Inayat complained to the police, he should be done for wasting police time and improper use of quotation marks.

He attributes to Melanie in one blog,the phrase ‘the moral depravity of the Arabs', and in another, “…the moral depravity of the Arabs is finding a grotesque echo in the moral bankruptcy and worse of the British and American ‘liberal’ media..."

In both cases the quotation marks are his and not mine. I have read Melanie's blogs of 14 and 16 March and I can't find the alleged wording in either of them.

There is as well a world of difference between "Arabs" and "the Arabs" - shades of SC Resolution 242.

Another Joshua

It does seem to me that this is a baseless allegation that will not go beyond the complaint stage, yet the story has some mileage, and it is this that leads to attempt t supress freedom speech. It also, throgh the backdoor apologises for the atrocity, which was the centre of Melanie's piece.

Melanie Phillips, you have me and countless others owe you a great deal for speaking your mind.

Grumpy true Zionist

hey Pete

send also to your town concil, school pta, your local gym, labour/lefty actian group, boycott whatever group whoever........

news sells....and this blog probably brings more people/comments than all other Spectator blogs combined

and you've sent a little letter asking that.....what!

go back to your crocheting

wonderer

@James
March 21st, 2011 1:11am You say, "From my reading of her writing, my impression is that Ms Phillips favours an Eretz Israel which is largely ethnically cleansed of non Jews.......

And a truly precise response to this question includes a precise definition of borders. Again, from her writings, I shrewdly suspect Ms Phillips might be in support of an Eretz Israel as defined in the Pentateuch."

I'm not going to trawl back through the blog to find chapter and verse but I'm sure I can recall her writing on one occasion that the Israelis had done themselves no favours by establishing settlements on the West Bank. This implies something much narrower than EI per Pentateuch.

Alan Meyer

Thank you!

health and strength to you!

Alan from Berlin

Yisrael Harris

I wonder what specific steps people like us can take to lend Melanie our support.

Tilly

If one more person refers to Melanie Phillips as a "voice crying out in the wilderness" (or uses any such "lonely" metaphors) I shall report them to the nearest funny-farm.

She is an immensely powerful and influential journalist whose voice is heard loud and clear by millions of people via the Daily Mail, BBC, Spectator, and God knows how many more papers and broadcast outlets worldwide. If her persuasive powers fail to win converts beyond her loyal flock, it sure isn't because she's howling in a desert.

Neil Saunders

The battle's out in the open now, Melanie.

I disagree with you on some pretty big issues (such as the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, the U.S. Neocons, Intelligent Design, etc.), but if it comes to taking sides (and I think we're close to that point, if we haven't already reached it) I'll choose you over the Islamo-PC Alliance every time.

Grumpy true Zionist

'I wonder what specific steps people like us can take to lend Melanie our support.'

Yisrael - good question!

Start by everyone who has a belief in freedom,who is against anti-semetic ideologies, who has a belief in, and a love of Eretz Yisrael....registering their feelings, by supporting this one true voice of reason;

Melanie - you go girl!

Carl

But Melanie Phillips' remarks were racist and deliberately inflammatory. If you have editorial courage, publish this and allow it to be challenged.

Leslie

At least savages are still regarded as human beings, whereas pigs, dogs and hyenas, which is what Islamists call Jews, are not. Are the police investigating that?

Augustus

Actually, Melanie did say 'the Arabs' in referring to those whose moral depravity was
'finding a grotesque echo in the moral bankruptcy and worse of the British and American liberal media.' Notice the definite article 'the' which does exactly what it is supposed to do, it defines something, in this case, not all
the entire world population of
Arab peoples, but those specifically morally depraved enough to influence the media of which she speaks. It is the media downplaying the atrocity, not Arab morality in general, which is being highlighted. This is basic appreciation of language. To make a fuss about it is the height of inanity.

Sarah AB

I think the post was offensive. I don't have any for Bunglawala either though.

Brian Williams

Well, ‘Mo Ma’ is an ignorant piece of excrement, who, at best, is a victim of the cultural Marxists who dominate our media. Good on you Melanie, you are a credit to honest journalism.

david elder

Blades! There he is again, starting with a token acknowledgement of what even he can't defend, and ending with a swipe at any error real or supposed, large or small, by Mel. Blades for the Camel Corps!

Terry in Oz

Mel, I will never forget the first Intafada when a bus load of Jewish children in Gaza were blown up. A couple of kids lost their legs.

Israel responded by telling the PA that it was going to blow up one of its buildings, using helicopters for the first time. It warned the arabs where and when so that no lives need be lost.

The arab and international response? How dare Israel escalate the conflict by using helicopters?!! The current leader of the arab league made a speech along these lines, totally outraged. The leftist western media followed the line like sheep.

The kids still have no legs. The arabs and their western fellow bigots never mentioned the kids anyway, so who cares about them? THeir presence obviously sparked the understandable rage of the arabs at having to live in a multicultural society alongside Jews.

Always blame the victim.

Nothing changes.

There will be another war against Israel. Because the lessons of such bile and racist antisemitism from WW2 still remain unlearned.

But we have a friend in a high place. Perhaps the haters might, at least, like to reflect on that.

Derek BLADES

Augustus is taking a possibly unhealthy interest in me. The poor fellow now has nothing better to do than count my contributions to each blog.

However many there were, they all expressed indignation at the Islamaphobia and blatant race hatred that Augustus and others peddle on this site.

I was particularly offended by the "savages" taunt and if I did not earlier describe the blog as hysterical that is because I think they almost all show symptoms of hysterical paranoia.

daniel maris

You can't talk about "the moral depravity of the Arabs" and not expect to get picked up on it. Are all Libyans morally depraved? All Lebanese? All Marsh Arabs?

I have harsh things to say about Islam - about which you seem strangely ambivalent. That's an ideology. But I personally would never talk about the moral depravity of a whole people.

Jerry

Re "kate March 21st, 2011 3:38pm"

Regarding the relationship between evil and untrustworthy: The amount of untrustworthiness multiplied by the potential damage is the "effect" of the combination of these two factors - quite literally the arithmetic product. When doubt revolves about ultimate issues such as the loss of life, then the resultant product is exceedingly high. For a more formal discussion of this understanding, see "Fooled by Randomness" by Nassim Nicholas Taleb.

Kate wrote: " Do you think consider Palestinians, Arabs and Muslims as groups to be "evil"?"

Palestinians are, of course, not an absolute evil. On a relative basis, they are high on the "effect" level. Examples of Jewish bosses being murdered by their Palestinian employees are numerous. There was a period where Palestinian construction workers could not be trusted with backhoes or front loaders because there was a series of incidents in which they bashed pedestrians or drivers in their vehicles. Then there was the withdrawal from Gaza that led to 8000 rockets into Israel before Operation Cast Lead. Only last Saturday March 19 there were fifty rockets launched at Israel because Hamas was worried about making peace with Fatah. Of course, you are aware that what has been said by leaders of the Palestinians in English differs markedly from what they say in in Arabic. And you are aware that most of the Fogel family of Itamar is no longer with us in this world because they lost their roll of the dice and were chosen for annihilation. It could have been any other family in Itamar or some other community. Random murder is by most reasonable definitions evil, don't you agree.

Andras

Melanie,

I support you.

Mustapha Bunn

Derek if you are,'particularly offended by the savages taunt',how do you manage with the constant hatred for the Jews that is spewed from Arab countries?Do you write to their blogs to complain etc. or are you only 'offended' by certain writings?

David Johnston

Dear Melanie,
It should go without saying that the murder of the Fogel family was an appalling, evil, inexcusable and unforgivable act. The people that perpetrated such an act are clearly, to put it mildly, savages.
However, for you to state: ‘Today the massacred Fogel family was buried in Jerusalem. And as anticipated, the moral depravity of the Arabs…’ really is an incitement to hatred and I think you are either being disingenuous or totally lacking in self-awareness and insight to deny this.
After an outrage by the IRA, it would clearly be utterly bigoted to talk about ‘.. the moral depravity of the Irish’ or after an ETA terrorist act to talk about the ‘….moral depravity of the Basques’. Or do you really think that a murderous outrage by members of any national, ethnic or religious group means that all members of that group are morally depraved?
I think you need to explain yourself.
Kind regards,
David Johnston

Hanna

James

How can Melanie or anyone else possibly describe a definitive 'endgame' as long as Israel's many enemies are bent on her total destruction? I think it is fairly obvious that the ongoing interim endgame is survival.

DavidSI

Victoria, Carl, Herzen and Blades, I just came across this amazing article which I thought you, in particular, might find interesting...

"Al Aqsa Brigade forces helped save the life of an Israeli settler woman and her newly born infant girl on Wednesday"

Ha!! .... And I bet you even believed that headline! :-)

Actually, the REAL story reads as follows:

"IDF forces and local paramedics helped save the life of a Palestinian woman and her newly born infant Wednesday, at the settlement where Fogel relatives are sitting Shiva for the five Israelis brutally murdered last week."

You can read the article here: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4043536,00.html

The article doesn't say whether or not Palestinians handed out sweets to celebrate the saving of the little girl but my suspicion is not!

Truthtriumphs

Some more details about Bunglawala:--

http://cifwatch.com/2011/03/21/the-guardian-approved-judeophobia-of-inayat-bunglawala/

Good at dishing it out---not so good at receiving it!

kate

Jerry

Not sure I quite agree with your belief that questions of morality can be reduced to arithmetic formula. But by trying to read what you say:

"Regarding the relationship between evil and untrustworthy: The amount of untrustworthiness multiplied by the potential damage is the "effect" of the combination of these two factors - quite literally the arithmetic product."

And

"On a relative basis, they are high on the "effect" level."

I think you believe that while Palestinians are not an "absolute evil" they come pretty high up on the "evil" (renamed "effect") scale.

As previously made clear while I think we all agree that random murder is evil, I certainly don't subscribe to describing an entire people in this way. That is where we fundamentally differ.

The Phantom

Melanie, it would appear you've managed to piss off all the right people.

Keep up the good work! :)

Derek BLADES

Terry in Oz speaks of the "rage of the arabs at having to live in a multicultural society alongside Jews".

In the occupied territories, Arabs and Jews do not live alongside each other. The settlers live in armed encampments protected by the IDF from the Arabs whose land they have stolen. They venture out of these settlements to travel to Israel proper and other settlements or to harass, abuse and sometimes kill their Arab neighbours.

Wouldn't you be cross about it Cobber?

Mr. Mabutoh Afunfa

Melanie,
You are real, God Bless you!
Don't worry about this people they are manipulators.

Patricia

Melanie -

Unfortunately we appear to be living in a world where PC has taken over sane thought.

If handing out sweets in Gaza in celebration of the slaughter of sleeping children is not abhorrent - than what has happened to our world?

Keep writing with your clarity of thought - the world needs your voice.

SteveC

Melanie, thank you for your blogs. It is refreshing to have such an honest antidote to the bilge spewed by the mainstream media. Please keep up the good work. You are one of a dwindling number of candles in the dark. Keep burning bright.

Tilly

Augustus

The definite article is nowhere near as trustworthy as you think. Context makes a great deal of difference. If, for example, I say "The Jews killed Christ" few would doubt I was making an assertion that Jewish people collectively bore the blame. If, however, I'd said, "Jews killed Christ" it could be taken as a purely DESCRIPTIVE statement about two or more people on whom blame had been placed.

Melanie's reference to "the Arabs" was (at best) ambiguous - as the whole furore has illustrated. All she needed to have done was add one word to make it plain she was referring specifically to the Fogels' killers:

"Today the massacred Fogel family was buried in Jerusalem. And as anticipated, the moral depravity of the Arabs CONCERNED is finding a grotesque echo..." (my addition in caps).

Why did she not express it this way? To give her the benefit of the doubt, it could be put down to sloppiness; but when looked at in the context of the blog as a whole and others on the same subject, I'm afraid she does regard Arabs as an innately depraved race and has no compunction in saying so.

For this reason, it is quite right that "the moral depravity of the Jews" is substituted as a yardstick. And if that is a shamefully bigoted, racist statement, so is hers.

Augustus

Tilly - There was no doubt whatsoever regarding what Melanie's blog was about. It was
about armchair barbarism perpetrated by the likes of The
New York Times, CNN, and the BBC
etc. That's why it was headed as such. The reference to 'the
Arabs', i.e. those hateful and
murderous psychopaths who blindly obey their totalitarian
systems and kill innocent children and babies sleeping in their beds, was incidental to the theme of the piece as to how
those media downplayed the atrocity and even highlighted the 'hard-line settler' image.
If you, and others, can't see that, you are quite simply, or willfully, lacking in common sense.

logdon

The irony?

After sending this perfectly accurate piece by Douglas Murray on the perils of Islamic censoriousness and having it modded three times I try an expurgated version.

Do the powers that be, ruling what can and what cannot be said at the Spectator not wish their wives and servants to be overcome by the vapours?

Or is hypocrisy embedded in the British establishmet?

Douglas Murray nails it.

'You have no right not to be offended...you have no right to say that if you don't like something you can commit violence or you would like something stopped or censored....you have no right to more hate laws'...

'You have to realise the society where even your deepest feelings can be trodden upon is the only society worth living in'...

youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NHsgVwHti_0#at=38

Rose

Thank you for what you go through to be a light in so much darkness.

gareth

ha ha - good work Mel.

Darth Mohl

Good on you,Melanie! Dreadnought!

Margaret Muller-Johansson

Mo Ma said that to you? she is bizarre lady! you have to know Melanie you are the best journalist and we support you, i am totally your side, this people who are against you should know you are not in Saudi Arabianistan but Londonistan and a journalist should write what they want as long as it is true. Mo Ma may think sometimes you are a dog or your dad is but she has to know at least you are not a murderer.

Rod Macaulay

Dear Melanie

Thank you for taking such a courageous stand against the awful attacks on free speech and the other injustices in a "World turned upside down".

Nachman

Nick - "Do we know for sure that the killer(s) of the Fogels was Palestinian? Or are we just assuming that? (Is it impossible for the murderer to be Israeli?"

Would that be an Israeli Jew or an Israeli Arab? Just asking for the sake of clarification.

C.Gee

“For this reason, it is quite right that "the moral depravity of the Jews" is substituted as a yardstick. And if that is a shamefully bigoted, racist statement, so is hers.”

Your substitution test for bigotry - which you have recommended several times - is otiose.
The Jews over a very long period of history have been subjected to calumnies, in particular blood-libels, in which there was not a shred of truth. Anti-semitism is an irrational - groundless - hatred of Jews.
The Arabs, like Christendom, had a culture of regarding Jews as inferior and blood-thirsty. Arab views of Jews as animals are embedded in their religion. Under Islamic rule, the Jews (like Christians) were subjected to rules similar to apartheid rules keeping them subservient to Muslims. Arab violence against Jews in the Middle East prior to the founding was not matched by violence against Arabs by Jews.
Israel and Arabia are at war. Nations at war have gone beyond the giving and taking of offense, they give and take death and destruction. The anti-Israel propaganda by the Arabs deliberately matches the Nazi propaganda - rapacious, child-blood drinking, clawed Jews grasping the globe. There is no official Israel anti-Arab propaganda and the Israeli media carries anti-Israel material. Anti-Arab attitudes in Israeli Jews are found in the context of what was called in Ireland, “the troubles”, the war. “Islamophobia” is meaningless in the context of a war. And even in the West, “Islamophobia” cannot be substituted for “anti-semitism” because fear of Islamic militancy is rational.
“The moral depravity of the Jews”, is frequently expressed. It is relatively mild. The memes of Zionism is Racism, Israel is a Nazi, Israel is a child-killer, Israel is brutal and wanton murderer of Arabs fill the media - and have become entrenched in Western minds. That the Jews of Israel are morally depraved has become the default attitude in Britain - adding a new layer to the old anti-semitism. In fact, “Israel” is a handy collective label for Jews, allowing for the pretense that national vilification is not racial bigotry.
So when two Arabs undertake the bloody murder of sleeping children in furtherance of their people’s war against the Jews, and they and their people are accused of “moral depravity” for the murder, it is a justified expression of outrage at the enemy and its culture that permits - and condones - the deliberate killing of Jewish children. It is not bigotry, it is the truth.
The substitution of “Jews” for “Israel” for “Arabs” in the expressions “the moral depravity of the Arabs”, or “the Arabs are savages” does not make for equal statements of bigotry. Jews have been the victims of bigoted calumny for so long that such statements are acceptable to the gentile world: many people would see it as the truth. Second, the accusation of Arab moral depravity is attached to an actual incident of Arab moral depravity.
Your substitution test is useful, though, in a way you probably did not intend. If someone employs it, she is a moral relativist, so her opinion on bigotry is not worth listening to.
Try substituting here: The Arabs are the victims of a Jewish plot of genocide, which is why it is understandable that two Arabs entered a Jewish house at night and stabbed the family to death, decapitating an infant. Any discomfort? Either way?

Tilly

Augustus

(2nd attempt at reply):

Since I and very many others are unable to interpret Melanie's article as anything other than a racist attack on Arabs collectively, there is a very simple solution. Let her issue a statement of clarification.

As things stand, she seems perfectly happy to allow Arabs to believe that she regards them as a morally degraded race. If this is so, she ought to have the guts to confirm her opinion unequivocally rather than skulking behind a curtain of "ambiguity".

Matt

It takes a special type of person to cut a baby's throat. Keep exposing them Melanie.

Joe

Melanie, I support you totally. Carry on speaking out with the truth set against the corrupt lies and rampant Judophobia that is poisoning our once free country. Though not a Jew I stand with you. What else can be done to help?

Adam B.

Blades, you keep repeating this mantra of "stolen land". It was not stolen. The land on which settlements are built was never, at any point in history, part of any Arab state of "Palestine", nor was it in private Arab ownership. The Arabs CLAIM it - but it was never, in any sense, Arab land.

Jerry

Kate wrote, "I think you believe that while Palestinians are not an "absolute evil" they come pretty high up on the "evil" (renamed "effect") scale."

As a practical matter, Kate, you simply do not have your rear end on the line. It is only a matter of deciding what to do under specific conditions. In Israel Jews are more likely to avoid Arab neighborhoods, while Arabs have no fear of wandering about Jewish neighborhoods. Indeed, in New York City Muslim immigrants actually prefer living in Orthodox Jewish neighborhoods for reasons unknown to me. I might speculate that Orthodox Jewish women dress in rather less revealing clothing than the general population, but that is only speculation. No doubt the affinity is a choice that is "overdetermined", i.e., there are many reasons voiced and unspoken.

So, decisions, rational decisions, become a matter of surety of safety. Again, if the risk is high and the consequences are potentially disastrous, then the proper decision is avoidance, along with educational attitudes that support survival - designation as "evil."

The important thing that you seem so oblivious to is that the risks of making an error in judgment by Israel as a country and individual Jews in where to go and how to maneuver in a society is high. No one wants to constantly watch his back or wonder whether his children will return from school. Single events are blown out of proportion because that is the way people survive.

If you wish to understand how the average Israeli feels, just lift yourself onto the ledge surrounding a tall building and then go about your activities for the day from that perch.

Macheath

Please stop incuding the isolated comments of e-mailers and e-commenters as evidence that "the other side" is inherently unbalanced. Pretty much everyone posting here on both sides of the argument fits into that category. You are tabloidizing an interesting topic.

Derek BLADES

Adam B.March 22nd, chides me for saying that the settlers in the occupied territory are living on "stolen land" and claims that "The land on which settlements are built was never...in private Arab ownership."

That is quite correct. The land was in the communal ownership of villages and pieces of land were allocated to eachr family depending on their ability to farm it. Large families got more land and when families grew or shrank in size land was redistributed among them by village elders. This system is favoured in many parts of the world - Africa, South Asia and the Middle East for example. The notion of an individual "owning" a piece of farm land would seem very strange to much of the rural population in these regions. "Land-ownership" is a Western concept.

Westernised Israeli lawyers took advantage of this to impose Israeli ownership laws on the Palestinians. Their land was taken under the laughable pretence that they were acting in accordance with “the law”.

I call it stolen land and stolen it is. Calling it anything else is legal shysterism.

EC

"Since I and very many others are unable to interpret Melanie's article as anything other ..."

Says more about you than her!

Graeme Thompson

In your last link to Mr Bunglawala's blog a Steve Green made a couple of excellent observations in the comments thread.

I felt moved to reply:-

Mr Green, I think you're being very unfair to Mr Bunglawala. After the stabbing to death of the Fogel family including their 3 month old baby in their home Mr Bunglawala wrote an extremely strong condemnation and expressed the desire that both the Fatah and Hamas Governments do all in their power to capture the terrorists and extradite them to Israel to face justice.

You can find his condemnation of this sheer barbarism .. you can find it .. oh dear, I dont seem to be able to find it. How can that be?

Leo

Israel - what a shining democracy:

Knesset passes 'Nakba bill'
http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4046440,00.html

Adam B.

Blades, that is nonsense. It was not in "communal ownership" other than ownership by the state (or the transient governong powers). Even to this day, most of the land is state land. State land does not "belong" to a village any more that you "own" the village green, or a London park.
Consequently, saying it is "stolen" is a complete fabrication.

Adam B.

Blades, nice use of the word "shyster" - no ulterior motive for that, I'm sure.

epaminondas

Melanie,

CARRY ON.
The alternative is the domain of evil.

Steve

Leo

"It will exacerbate tension in Israel,"

Presumably you think that Israeli 'citizens' burning Israeli flags and openly supporting those that wish to completely destroy her is just bloody brilliant for social cohesion.

Will the left ever grow up?

Tilly

C.Gee

Hopefully this is a fair summary of your argument: Anti-Semitism is (and remains) irrational and groundless because there never was a shred of truth to the distorted beliefs underlying it. Hatred of Arabs, by contrast, arises from a rational fear of Islamic militancy and Muslim culture as a whole because it is grounded in a religion which (both historically and currently) permits, condones and engages in morally depraved activities. Hence, when accusations of depravity are levelled at Jews, they are entirely unjustified and bigoted, while similar allegations against Arabs are "fair comment".

This might have carried some weight with me but for one thing - the utter disgust I felt on reading Melanie's blogs and the supportive comments accompanying them following the Fogel murders. This quite visceral response went way beyond my usual reactions, which tend to range from bemusement to shock at much of the (to my mind) manipulative and twisted rhetoric involved.

Why so unnaturally upset? The only way I can describe it is like being in the thick of a lynch mob.

Most of the people participating around me seem so fired up with hatred and loathing that they are, quite literally, primed to kill. And not just to string up the Fogels' murderers, but anyone "tainted" by racial or cultural association.

For me this raises spectres of hideous events which flatten out history and erase all geographical and cultural lines - pogroms, Ku-Klux-Klan, rape of the Sabine women, village massacre in Darfur ... no difference whatsoever. In each case, those in the mob are convinced of their "righteousness" and the "evil" they are eradicating, and it is only afterwards - sometimes centuries later - that the full horror of what they have done is acknowledged.

You no doubt think I am exaggerating the lynch mob parallel here. I very much hope I am - that all signs of its gathering will soon fade away and no innocent blood will be shed - but I fear the worst.

However correct you might be in evaluating the "big picture" of Islamist threats or defending Israel's policies and aspirations, there are just too many "little picture" distortions currently being exploited for comfort. And THESE are what matter in galvanising genocidal thuggery.

The power of propaganda (as you rightly identify in relation to Muslim-originated images and utterances) is absolutely crucial to harnessing mass aggression. Focus hearts and minds on the cut throats of babies, the dipping of hands in blood, the handing out of celebratory sweets, and you have thousands crying out for vengeance; tell them about ancient land rights and UN resolutions and the most they will do is write angry letters to their MP.

So what, you challenge me, is wrong with using propaganda in a time of war? Why should we not be allowed to counter their propaganda? How can you even SAY what we put out is propaganda, when all we do is tell the truth, whereas theirs is all lies? Can't I see how much more insidious theirs is, emanating as it does from government and school textbooks, whereas ours is ...?

Ours is ... what? At the moment, as far as I can see, it is distorted information being disseminated in the most effective way possible to reach the particular audience addressed. Blood-curdling speeches by priests and politicians might work wonders in countries where demagogues are two a penny, but not here; and we'd soon smell a rat if little Jimmy brought home a history book called "Dirty Arabs and Their Filthy Deeds". So instead we use outlets, language styles and images which resonate with people brought up in the democratic west.

The "respectable" media (in which I include the Spectator) fulfil the task beautifully. Leaving aside their lazy collusion with government and corporate "spin", which is another story, the propaganda opportunity of relevance to lynch mobs rests on the value placed free speech - a tradition which assumes that people will NOT rise up and behave like thugs simply because Melanie Phillips is having a rant or Richard Littlejohn is calling someone rude names. Mostly this holds true. But danger zones are nonetheless recognised, which is why access is usually denied to those who cross an imaginary line of "acceptable" speech.

What's increasingly happening now - in large part thanks to the internet - is that this line is tested to breaking point. Opportunities are given not just to sway opinion but to orchestrate and amplify bigotry, inflame anger, heighten fear -things which have potentially lethal consequences if not counterbalanced by reasoned rebuttal.

Up to the time of the Fogel-related blogs, I was fairly convinced that the balances were adequate. Sure, I'd seen some scarily provocative views expressed, but nothing which led me to think a fire-storm was being whipped up and then left to its own devices.

Maybe another time I'll give you some examples, but suffice it to say for now that beliefs are being engendered about Arabs in these threads and beyond which are both unforgivably false and dreadfully dangerous.

JD

Melanie - you have our support 100%. Your courage and bravery are to be admired as much as your honesty and cogency. Very best wishes to you.

Steve

Tilly

Hopefully this is a fair summary of your argument:

Because Israelis don't have lots of hate speach preachers and, in any case are sophisticated enough not to fall for the views of hate speach preachers, opinions expressed on blogs like this carry a particular power and are being deliberately used in order to subtly whip up the faithful into a murderous rage. Because of this Israel supporters should keep quiet and refrain from telling the truth about the institutionalised genocidal attitude of the majority of arabs towards all Jews and other non-muslims.

Is that it?

Weak.

Tilly

Steve

Not a bad summary except right at the end. It ought to read, "Jews should refrain from telling lies and exaggerating..." etc.

Oh, and by the way, the whipping-up messages are only "subtle" if you're too busy swallowing them to engage your brain.

Augustus

Tilly - You seem to have convinced yourself that Melanie
regards the Arabs as 'a morally
degraded race'. Firstly, you cannot expect someone like Melanie to show much empathy in
a blog following that particular
barbaric slaughter of the Fogel family, or even to specifically
address the malaise which so obviously afflicts them at such
a time. Also there are deep historical reasons for believing that Arabs don't want,
or are incapable for reasons of education and upbringing, of changing their undemocratic ways and stepping outside their history. Of all the problems that afflict their society, corruption is probably the one that Arabs complain about most.
There is no doubt that corruption is rife. In a survey for the Human Development report
in 2008, more than 90% of particpants believed it to be rife and pervasive. In the five countries that were surveyed,
"politicians, businessmen, and high-ranking officials head the list in the spread of corruption". And corruption has many harmful effects, it is intrinsically unfair, undermines democratic processes, denies equality of opportunity, and generally leads to socially unacceptable forms of moral degradation. Rampant corruption in the PA, for example was a significant factor behind the victory of Hamas in the 2006 election. But often the Islamist factions which claim the moral high ground because of this widespread corruption end up being more repressive and tyrannical. Arabs, wherever they are, and however well-educated or wealthy they might be, are haunted by a sense of powerlessness. This leads to the inevitable 'blame the Other' syndrome, which has been described as 'the Arab malaise'. And it is this malaise
to which Melanie has been so
pointlessly and ignorantly subjected.

C.Gee

Tilly:

“Why so unnaturally upset? The only way I can describe it is like being in the thick of a lynch mob... Most of the people participating around me seem so fired up with hatred and loathing that they are, quite literally, primed to kill. And not just to string up the Fogels' murderers, but anyone "tainted" by racial or cultural association.”

The Fogels were, quite literally, lynched. It was a small mob that lynched them. But the lynchers were Arab. The Arabs were fired up with hatred and loathing. They were, metaphorically, primed to kill, but did actually, kill the Fogels because the Fogels were Jews, and therefore tainted by racial and cultural association, as Jews have been over many, many generations. Jews know the feeling of being in the thick of a lynch mob - because that it where they live.

Yet your “visceral” reaction is not sorrow for the Fogels, and disgust at the perpetrators. What really upsets you, disgusts you, is that contempt for Arabs should be expressed by those sympathetic to the Fogels. Your empathy for the victims of free speech rather than the victims of murder show an exquisitely refined sensibility. How you must suffer. Poor you. May I suggest you refrain, quite literally, from reading the KKK rapist posters on this site, before someone again provokes a metaphoric moral panic in your gut? Don't be a martyr to your humanity.

Edward in the USA

Tilly, your analogy,

“For this reason, it is quite right that "the moral depravity of the Jews" is substituted as a yardstick. And if that is a shamefully bigoted, racist statement, so is hers."

is dishonest.

If Melanie wrote "Muslims" instead of "Arabs", then your example of substituting "Jews" for "Arabs" would be fitting, but as usual, hyperbole is your tool of choice.

And how do you characterise people who murder children in their beds with knives? Freedom Fighters???

Tilly

Edward in the USA

1. If Melanie had written "Palestinians" the proper substitution would have been "Israelis". The Arabs-Jews equivalent is correct because Jews are an ethno-religious group (which includes many atheists - for eg, myself).

2. I would characterise people who knife people to death in their beds as psychopaths. NB: At this moment neither the identity of the killers nor their motive has been established; see post to follow addressed to C.Gee.

Andrew

Take no notice Melanie. I think sometimes you let your tongue run away with you, but in this instance you were bang on the money.

Poeple don't like truth telling as you know.

Last year I was blocked from the Guardian's comment page. My Crime? I repeatedly questioned why it was alright to direct so much vitriol at Sarah Palin and her family.

Don;'t get me wrong; I have no time for the woman and would never vote for her, but I just thought the level of personal attacks on her - even on her kids - were totally out of order. Everything from doctored pictures that would make Rupert Murdoch blush to insisiting she wasn't the mother of her own baby.

Despite repeated requests I never got an explanation. So much for comment being free.

Tilly

C.Gee

You appear to know a lot more about the identity and motives of the Fogel family's killers than the Israeli police/military do. Amazing how regular reading and dissemination of propaganda can sharpen a person's mind-reading skills.

"They killed the Fogels because they were Jews" is so much easier to digest that something complicated involving "Israel" or "Gaza" or "Settlers" or even "Personal Reasons". And it has the benefit of being so inclusive too - now we can ALL feel threatened and vengeful.

Strange about the modus operandi, though - not the usual Middle East bomber/gunman terrorism style. But, hey-ho, psychopathic knifing does make perfect sense when you take into account how Arabs like to revel in blood. Dipping their hands in blood is pretty much a ritual with them, or so I've seen repeated quite a few times in tandem with "blood lust", "bloodthirstiness" and other bloody things. (Might I suggest you tone this down - just a tad, that's all - or next thing you know those savages will be bringing an action for a some ancient Libel they think is being turned on its head...)

One thing I've really got to applaud is the skill shown over those sweet-eating celebrations. Really made me sick, that did. If ever there was proof of moral depravity ... so I just had to find out more - but don't worry, most people won't bother.

Would you believe, all I could find by way of evidence was a website carrying a weird montage of three photos: a solitary bloke holding a tray of sweet cakes. In the first, he's doling a piece to a very old woman (a beggar by the looks of it) recumbent against a wall; in the second, he gives a piece to somebody driving a car; finally he offers his wares to two chaps. But you know what's MISSING? - anybody else sharing their candy, and not the slightest sign of a crowd, not even a blurry bunch of passers-by in the background.

Hard to square that with dozens of reports on other websites (and these blogs, natch!) arising from this photo-journalistic scoop - "Palestinians took to the streets" or "held street celebrations" with their sweets is how it was put ... over and over again.

As I say, no prob now that it's well entrenched in the public mind. I'll make sure to let you know if I spot any other examples of classic rabble-rousing talk. In the meantime, just you keep monitoring the Islamist websites - I'm sure you'll find plenty of spookily similar words and images just waiting to be turned upside-down and harvested.

Elka

Melanie, you are beyond brave and 100% honest! I love all of your work!

Tilly

Augustus

A sense of powerlessness does, indeed, lead people to "blame the other". Why, then, should it come as any surprise that Israel - which daily CONFIRMS the powerlessness of Palestinians - deflects attention from the corruption and ineptitude on the part of Palestinian leaders?

Enormous and constant barrages of propaganda and social engineering are needed to fuel and sustain hatred for an entirely blameless outside group. Hardly any effort is needed when the outsiders behave in exactly the way they are painted as doing.

Every time a bomb is dropped on Gaza, the population are reminded that they are weak, helpless, too poor to defend themselves effectively against a vastly better armed, vastly wealthier neighbour. Every time another acre of land which they regard as theirs is swallowed up, the world shrinks and any prospect of betterment fades.

It's no good telling them that they "brought this on themselves" - because the disempowered don't, by definition, see themselves as anything but victims.

OK, you can point an accusing finger at corrupt leaders, or the desperate stupidity of certain individuals who try to restore a sense of self-empowerment by firing provocative volleys; but such arguments are useless when all people ACTUALLY see around them is a miserable ghetto, streets blown to smithereens, dead friends and relatives ... and a fighter plane, clearly marked "Israel" dealing out the death and destruction.

The plight of Palestinians may serve as a useful focus for "blame the outsider" politicking in other Arab states but to view this as an all-consuming obsession is purely a construct of Zionists unwilling to accept the role (and responsibilities) of supremacists. "We are surrounded by MILLIONS of Arabian enemies!" That's the eternal cry. And when the rest of the world raises a sceptical eyebrow, "EVERYBODY hates us - and its just because we're Jews."

No matter that the world is currently watching Arabs fighting battles on quite different fronts against quite different foes than "Jews", the egocentric howls of Israel's loyal supporters remain surreally unabated.

Augustus

tilly - But of course it matters that Arabs are currently fighting battles on quite different fronts, and I am perfectly happy to discuss those hunger marches to freedom
on another blog. And your argument is false. Jews in Israel did not set out to play
the role of supremacists at all, they were to be partners in a partition plan which was rejected. Not forgetting the fact also that, due to its own political interests at the time, Britain failed to discharge its Mandate by preventing full Jewish immigration into Palestine during and after WW2. You callously describe the wars that Israel has had to fight against large and established Muslim states that surround it
as a 'Zionist construct'. You are a failed propagandist for a
large-scale terrorist enterprise whose only historical tactical goal appears to have been the targeting of ordinary Jewish people going about their daily business by killing and maiming them in a pointless waste of
life, and all because of a religious bigotry to part of the human race. The more posts you send, the more obvious the denial of the truth.

Babs

Omar, which Arabs have come out in support of the state of Israel and its Jews? Which Arabs have condemned the murder of the Fogels AND MEANT IT, unlike Abbas and Fayyad who, the next week were praising suicide bombers and other terrorists?

Don't you thing it's about time that Arabs TOOK OWNERSHIP of the antisemitic nature of their culture?

And Melanie didn't tar all arabs with the same brush. She called those who perpetrated the Itamar massacre precisely what they are

Amy Hawkins

Melanie,

Thank you for your courageous efforts to uphold the truth against this growing atmosphere of politically correct bigotry and antisemitic propaganda at a level that would make Joseph Goebbels feel right at home.

DT

You called a spade a spade and they got their knickers in a twist. Keep calling it like you see it, your spot on.