The need to understand

John Thomas

"Perhaps it’s Lady Neville-Jones who ‘needs to understand’ a little more" - indeed, this is yet move proof of what many of us have long thoght: that the people ruling us don't have any experience of the real world most of us live in.

Bill Rees

It's amazing just how muddle headed so many members of the British establishment are about the threat from extremist Muslims.
Part of the problem, I think, is the apparent belief that we must always seek compromises, even with positions that of outright hostility towards us. We can never, it seems, say to some groups that their beliefs are simply unacceptable, and we won't tolerate them, unless the groups we are addressing are white indigenous British, in which case that sort of approach is perfectly acceptable.

Forest Fan

When in Rome...spot on Mel.

HairyNoddy

Typical arrogant idiot politico, desperately trying to paper over the ever widening cracks in the failed multicult project.

Assimilation doesn't work either as proven by the behaviour of french and US muslims on inumerable occasions.

Edward in the USA

Is it asking too much to demand that Islamists adopt and implement Multiculturalism as the rest of the UK is?

Ed H

Imagine someone that naive running the security services.

The other countries must be running rings round us.

Doppelganger

I stopped paying attention to what the Dame had to say years ago.

Santorum

I lived in Stamford Hill for six years. The big orthodox Jewish community there were far less integrated than the local Muslims. Lovely people, but utterly committed to living a separate existence from mainstream British society.
This is fine by me. But is only tenable within a secular state.

Melanie's argument falls apart at the seams because her basic premise is that one set of religious beliefs Is superior to another.

DeeJay

We could make a start by abolishing faith schools that many of us regard as socially divisive, eh, Melanie?
or is that just a teeny weeny bit too radical for you for dear?

John HW

Yes indeed Doppelgänger: she makes some good points (and some mad and eccentric ones) wrapped in an interminable tide of pessimistic verbiage which eventually is akin to having a cheese grater scraped repeatedly across your face.

roger

This woman hasn't lived beyond her Aga, tea in Fortnum's and trips to Ascot. She's a clueless toff who needs a vacation in Gaza for a reality check. No that's not necessary. Dewsbury or Oldham would suffice. I'm not sure she would be able to handle Tower Hamlets.

Paul Freeman

Oh dear, more of the same old same old. I had high hopes of the Dame once. Alas, no more. When are we going to get our Churchill?

Melanie, in the words of the Bob Dylan song:

"Been lookin' all over for a girl like you,

Can't find nobody, so you'll have to do...."

Neil Turner

This is yet another establishment attack on people like me.

I'm English, white, Christian, middle class, right wing, a family man, law-abiding

My taxes pay for idiots like Neville-Jones to spout this nonsense. Was I asked ? No

Oh, and by the way, I feel totally unrepresented by the three main Parties

Anil Bhatt

Query:

Why do people talk of MINORITIES who have problems with British values when they mean Muslims?

Is it not rather unfair to sll the other minorities like the Hindus, Chinese, Blacks, Buddhists, Jews etc, who are quite happy with British values?

Why this persistent confusion of oranges and apples?

BalaamsAss

@ DeeJay

The term 'faith school' is a new invention. In the past CofE and Catholic schools were never called faith schools, because they were never exclusive to their faith.

You logic is broadly: Muslim schools are bad and muslim schools are faith schools, therefore, all faith schools are bad. This is convenient if you have an anti-christian prejudice.

Who do think created the first sweep of schools in Britain? I can tell you that it wasn't the government at that time.

Ian Townson

The threat to Britain from Muslim fanatics and the imposition of Sharia law is next to nothing yet we seem to have honed muslim-bashing to a fine art. There are long-established muslim (and indeed Jewish, Indian, Bangladeshi and West Indian) communities in Britain that have contributed positively to our communities for many decades prior to the obsession with multiculturalism. There never was any problem about this until now. Islamic fanaticism only post dates the Iranian Revolution (1979), with odd exceptions, and chiefly affects countries in the Middle and Far East. My heart goes out to Pakistan whose citizens are blown up practically every day by religious maniacs.

What I would like to see in all of these countries is the kind of revolutions happening now in Tunisia and Egypt. Not only have these brave and courageous people booted out vicious dictators, and continue to do so, but the struggle for democracy and freedom is cleary on a secular basis. Islam my be the formal religion of these countries but it has played very little part in the developing new societies of North Africa and the Middle East despite the presence of the Muslim Brotherhood.

A a much more meaningful solution to the problem of people who hide behind God to commit terrible atrocities would be to encourage these revolutions. Otherwise if we just carry on muslim-bashing, burqua bashing, niqab bashing, sharia bashing, mosque bashing etc. we have indeed climbed into bed with the English Defence League and the BNP.

Come on, Melanie. You don't really expect the great mix of immigrants and their cultures simply to become WASPS (White, Anglo Saxon Protestants) in accordance with the British Middle Classes 1,000 year history of Britain. I correct myself. Just over half of it would have been Catholic not protestant.

Gordon Square

Anyone charged with this task would benefit by sitting down and reading 'Talking to the enemy' by the anthropologist Scott Atran.

John C.

If one group of extremists have their hearts set on attacking another group of people, history teaches that confrontation provides an excuse, appeasement just delays the outcome.

Jerry Owen

How is the average factory / shop / store worker on the minimum wage supposed to identify with that liberal Utopiian Marxist drivel? Especially when they are trying to get the first rung on the property market that is sky high due to the vast amount of building projects on ever decreasing land plots for our burgeoning multicultural society?

elixelx

Santorum.
I too lived in Stamford Hill, for ten years...I never met a religious Jew who wanted to impose Torah Law upon me, proselytise me, force me to eat Kosher food, or threaten violence if I said anything about, or drew a picture of our teacher, Moses.
Other than that I saw them utilise non-Jewish shops, employ non-Jewish people, put their ordinary money into everyday banks, take courses in local colleges, live quietly with their wives and myriad children.
Your argument is shallow and ad hominem; Melanie does NOT advocate, has never advocated for one RELIGION over another; it is a slur to say so.
There are words and there are actions; it is these that Melanie addresses in her columns...but of course you WILL NOT admit that, because YOU have the agenda, YOU nurse the prejudice, YOU who criticise because--Melanie is Jewish...
I'd wager you would not put finger to keyboard were it a non-Jewish columnist criticising the imbecile words of an ouy-of-touch Government Minister, who simply knows not, like you, whereof she speaks!
Did you, perhaps meet a whole lot of Muslims while in Stamford Hill? Were they more or less integrated than the religious Jews? Did you ask them, or the Jews, or any Christians (there are quite a few of them in that area, believe me!) if their religion is superior to all others? Did you ask if the world would be a better place if everyone were Muslim, Christian or Jew?
What makes you believe that having lived in a Jewish area gives you a special insight into the mind and heart of Melanie Phillips?

St Bruno

Security Minister Baroness Neville-Jones while holding a position of some importance in the Coalition Government is all the same not elected by popular mandate to say such things, she is a career Civil Servant who should advise elected MPs not pontificate with no fear of retribution
except the displeasure of the PM. The job ought to be held by an elected member of the House of Commons. The country has gone down the road of appeasement to King Charles 2 far enough.

There are far too many Lords and Ladies lording over the electorate as it is. Surely there are qualified elected MPs to find one to fill the job. Could be she got the nod from Mr Cameron to say these things as a balance to his speech ‘muiticultralism is dead’.

Lets face it, any person who goes against the conventional wisdom of multiculturalism, meaning Islam, is labelled extreme right wing: EDL or BNP or even Jews are labelled as fascists, then of course sent to Coventry and basically suffer an undemocratic silencing of their views and party manifesto. Britain has always been a place where the middle ground was the way to go, all views can be heard, you might not agree but they are heard and judged for their worth by you and you alone. Does this sound like Britain to you? Britain has changed to a foreign country, a poor shade of what it stood for: honesty, forthrightness, and trust.

For what ends in the great scheme of our green and pleasant land slowly going down the pan.

daniel maris

Hmmm...

It seems to me that your position has shifted over the last few years. I certainly got the impression in the past that your view was that there was a genuine Islam that was not opposed to the values of liberal democracy.

You now seem to hold the view that Islam is not reconciliable with liberal democracy but is capable of reforming itself to the extent that it becomes reconciliable with liberal democracy.

Interesting.

I would say that Islam is in a similar position (but worse) in relation to liberal democracy,as that of Papal Supremacist Roman Catholicism of the late 19th century.

It's basically a race between Islam and modernism, first in the Islamic heartlands, but also across the whole of the planet.

Maddy1

@Paul Freeman
April 1st, 2011 9:12pm
I am intrigued by the continual references to Zimmerman in the Spectator, do you feel a change coming on?

WetherspoonThree

@BalaamsAss

No anti-christian bias as far as I am aware but I shall let others be the judge. Neither do I oppose parents passing to their children the tenets of their own faith (or indeed any other) which they clearly cherish.

No, what I do object to are faith based schools which promote their own brand of religion to the detriment of social harmony and mutual understanding. And why should they be subsidized by the state to do this in a school environment when they are plenty of opportunities, in the home and elsewhere - during the evenings and at weekends, to promote religious values.

I know that some will say that there are some faith based schools which have a pluralistic approach to other religions, but BalaamsAssm, you and I both know the ones that don't, don't we.

It is the institutional separation which depresses me.

wonderer

@Ian Townson
April 1st, 2011 10:26pm
"The threat to Britain from Muslim fanatics and the imposition of Sharia law is next to nothing yet we seem to have honed muslim-bashing to a fine art."

Certain Muslim fanatics in Britain know how to do some bashing on their own account, see
/www.eastlondonadvertiser.co.uk/news/police_deny_prior_knowledge_of_teacher_face_slash_plot_1_810675>

Gary Smith suffered a near lethal attack for just doing his job and teaching comparative religion at a school in an area with a Muslim population. Do you think he should have first gone round the local mosques and sought the permission of the imams?

mark luscombe

Elixelx 'but of course you WILL NOT admit that, because YOU have the agenda, YOU nurse the prejudice, YOU who criticise because--Melanie is Jewish...
I'd wager you would not put finger to keyboard were it a non-Jewish columnist criticising the imbecile words of an ouy-of-touch Government Minister,'

This is seriously nasty stuff and a regular feature in these threads, accusing people of anti-semitism with no evidence other than they disagree with MP/all aspects of Israli foreign policy.

I see no evidence whatsoever of anti semtism in Santorum's post. As for MP advocating one religion over another, I think santorum has a point. MP wishes to see the education system revert its "core role of transmitting British culture as embodied in its historic institutions, history, literature, religion and values based on Judeo-Christian ethics. " Santorum argues for a secular state where no individual religion's ethical code predominates. The point was rather clumsily put and I can see why you disagree. but to fall back on the old semitic slur is nonsense.

Derek Pasquill

Hopefully she will have a Pauline conversion along the road to dhimmitude.

Mustapha Bunn

I find it rather ironic that anyone should be lectured on being a "Briton" by a member of a government that takes its orders and laws from the E.U; refuses a promised referendum and has done nothing to repair the damage done to the Union by the imposition of separate assemblies in Scotland,Wales and Northern Ireland.

Peter

We never hear the term 'left-wing extremist'. Perhaps it's so inherently acceptable to be left-wing that it's actually impossible to be extreme enough for it to be noticed!

TomTOm

Neville-Jones was Hurd's sidekick at County NatWest doing deals with Milosevic and Serbian "privatisations" She is very tainted.

She is also clueless being a Foreign Office type with no street awareness. It is the Majority Population which is withdrawing into Acidic Alienation and waiting for the Great Explosion.

It is they who feel abused and traduced and have no time for Cameron and his two sidekicks Neville-Jones and Warsi telling us how we will serve their desires. They are so deranged they do not see how far the populace is seething with indignation and righteous anger ready to burn most of the major cities.

Neville Jones sounds like she could be Cameron's mother, divorced from reality and dancing on a volcano

Elaine

We don't know much about our spooks' thinking - but we can surmise a great deal from what we read in our papers.

As if what we read our papers were unreassuring enough, we occasionally get ex-spooks, like this one, who reveal the mindset that flourishes in these organisations.

There is no hope at the bottom of this Pandora's Box.

Augustus

An Egyptian Islamic theologian, and the spiritual guide of The Muslim Brotherhood, Dr Al Qaradawi, of whom the BBC has so approvingly cooed, and at whose feet Livingstone grovelled, has promoted the executing of homosexuals, the right of men to beat their wives, and the murder of innocent Jews. And the leader of the aforementioned Muslim Brotherhood has said: "I have complete faith that Islam will invade Europe and America, because Islam has logic and a mission". So surely it is perfectly fair and reasonable for us to ask of our politicians whether they fully understand the utterances of such people. Or must those who try to raise awareness of the problems be continually condemned by the use of 'hate speech' laws in the name of tolerance and multiculturalism?

sleeping dolls

"some 40-60 per cent of British Muslims don’t want merely to rub along and ‘obey the law’ of the land but instead live in Britain under ‘sharia law’."

Where did you get this ridiculous statistic?

Carl

The accusation of anti-semitism has become the refuge of the scoundrel on this comment section, used to censor any criticism of the Israeli State.

Mark2

"The accusation of anti-semitism has become the refuge of the scoundrel on this comment section, used to censor any criticism of the Israeli State."

No Carl - lets get it right for once - its the ACCUSATIO THAT the accusation of anti-semitism is used to ssilence criticism of Israel that become the refuge of the scoundrel, not just on this comment section but more generally.

It is that accusation that is increasingly used without the slightest evidence to silence the CASE FOR Israel.

Augustus

The whole of Western Europe is probably already doomed. But let us hope that the United States will not change from a culturally assimilated society to an unassimiltated multicultural society where all subcultures are accorded equal status
and allocated resources rather than earning them. Because multiculturalists fail to see
that the diversity methods they use to find and create diversity will, in fact, divide
rather than unite. The result then will always be a widespread societal tendency towards hatred, revenge, and if not civil war, at the very least a belief in the innate superiority of one's dominant group
and a feeling of solidarity and self-righteousness. One cannot eradicate racism
and produce tolerance of differences by teaching that identity is determined by race or culture, and then expect people to view each other as individuals. The idea of deriving one's identity by virtue of one's
race or inheritance alone is depraved. People have free wills competent minds that
should enable them to be judged as individuals. If we today could inherit moral virtue or moral vice we could be charged with a collective responsibility for all the vices, and be blamed for all the deeds, such as slavery, for example, of the past. Compensation for slavery simply means randomly chastising today's whites by
taxing them or denying them jobs through
'welfare programs' in order to reward today's chance blacks. People should be rewarded for their own merits not compelled to pay for acts committed by other often long-dead generations simply because those
others are of the same race. Racism is a universal evil, and the only acceptable alternative to it is individualism. It is essential to recognize that each person starts off as a sovereign entity with the power of independent judgement and choice.

zeitgoose

mark luscombe

"Melanie's argument falls apart at the seams because her basic premise is that one set of religious beliefs Is superior to another"

I have to say that this struck me as an infantile bit of playground-bully jew-baiting too. it didn't worry me too much, but since you are so keen to come to its defence...

Ian Townson

@Wonderer

Thanks for your comments on my piece about muslim-bashing. I read the article in the East London Advertiser about what happened to Gary Smith. I am horrified and sincerely hope that he recovers fully from his injuries. Thankfully the gang of thugs that did this to him have been caught.

I myself have been attacked three times in the past by gangs of youths. Twice for robbery and once because they knew I was gay. Thankfully I was more scared than hurt. The first two gangs were black and the last one white. Even so I didn't generalise from this that all black youths are muggers or that all dispossessed white working class youths are thugs and queer bashers. The media, NF and politicians certainly went for the black muggers scare at the time which had a disfiguring effect on race relations. The empahsis has now switched to muslims and Islam because of the brutal and nasty activities of Islamist fanatics.

The point I was really making is that muslim-bashing is in danger of becoming generalised (they are all fanatics) which just isn't true. Clearly there are Interfaith and Muslim community groups who are appalled at what has happened and most ordinary muslims are to. The Asian youths who attacked Gary clearly have had their heads stuffed with hatred - no doubt by extremist teachings. It is easy to influence lads who are unemployed and footloose with vile ideas. Fascists do this with white working class youths as much as Islamists do this with Asian youths.

I hope Gary will return to teaching comparative religion with the full backing of the teachers and pupils at his school and the police. That would be the surest way of defying and defeating the extremists who are too cowardly to be called to account for the consequences of their anti-human ranting.

Ever ready

Neil Turner and TomTom.

100% agree on all your points.

Santorum

Mark Luscombe

I'm grateful. I was Merely pointing out Melanie's inconsistencies. I'm very pro-Israel, but the position from which she makes her case weakens it. As for clumsy, I'll see you outside.

Terry Crouch

Neil Turner April 1st, 2011 9:14pm
Get used to it, when we get AV in this country you'll have the pleasure of voting for all three.

blue_&_white_avenger

Elixelx - I venture to suggest that Santorum didn't mean things that strongly altho' I generally agree with your comments. Where you say about Melanie "I'd wager you would not put finger to keyboard were it a non-Jewish columnist criticising the imbecile words of an out-of-touch Government Minister, who simply knows not, like you, whereof she speaks!" - the problem is that there AREN'T too many columnists of any persuasion who aren't fellow-travellers & recognise & address the problem. Perhaps Melanie is unique & that's part of the problem

Norm

I agree with Neil Turner. I won't be here in 20 years to witness the state of this country but I cry for it already. Every time I read Melanie or Littlejohn or Hitchen's I wonder why they do not support Nick Griffin. The time is now to support the BNP and bring it into the mainstream. Yes it needs reforming but there is a huge amount of support for a political party to stand up for Britain. None of the main party's are up to it so however much you dislike Griffin support anyone who supports us.

C.Gee

"Melanie's argument falls apart at the seams because her basic premise is that one set of religious beliefs Is superior to another."

Judaism as a set of religious beliefs is compatible English law. Under Jewish law, the Jews must obey the laws of the nation of which they are citizens. Obeying the laws of the nation is sufficient and necessary for assimilation. But, in any case, there are no Jewish religious practices or customs which offend British law.

In this sense Judaism is a superior set of religious beliefs than Islam. Islam holds Sharia supreme. And some customs of Muslims - whether demanded by Islam or not - do offend British law.

If British law is offended, it has decided not to show it. It must be said, though, in all fairness, that there is no British law forbidding the Muslim custom of regarding non-Muslims -particularly Jews - as inferior.

Edward in the USA

Carl said:
"The accusation of anti-semitism has become the refuge of the scoundrel on this comment section, used to censor any criticism of the Israeli State."

Carl, didn't you actually mean:

The accusation of islamophobia has become the refuge of the scoundrel on this comment section, used to censor any criticism of Palestinians, Hamass, Hezbullah, Muslim Brotherhood?

Paul Freeman

Santorum, you write:

“Melanie's argument falls apart at the seams because her basic premise is that one set of religious beliefs Is superior to another.”

A famous Jew once said: "By their fruits ye shall know them." If you want to understand Islam, just go to Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia or Iran. You’ll find it’s no coincidence that the more rigorous the interpretation of Muslim scripture, the more oppressive the society.

On the other hand, if you truly believe that all religions are equal or equally human, then you must also believe you would be equally happy living in such places.

The irony is, as a confirmed secularist, while you seek to distance yourself from all religions as irrational and (as I suspect) herd-driven, in defiance of all reason and with equal obedience to the herd, you prostrate yourself before the holy cow of cultural relativism. This contradiction is the result.

Santorum

I wouldn't defend Islam: it's as bone headed as all the World's major religions. But all types of hideousness have been inspired and driven by these religions. Judaism less than most because Jews have never had the same power as Christianity and Islam. But the potential exists in all of them. This is why we need to make our country secular and relegate religion to the private realm.

Edward in the USA

Santorum, and I wouldn't hold up atheism as a sound alternative.

Ancient Rome, Greece, and current day Socialism, Communism, national Socialism don't have clean hands.

Barry Larking

Dame Pauline spoke some time ago on B.B.C. Television's "Newsnight". She was of the opinion (no one was pressing her on this point) that "where Bristish foreign policy angers young Moslems this would have to be looked at".

"Looked at". What does that mean to you?

C.Gee

"The point I was really making is that muslim-bashing is in danger of becoming generalised (they are all fanatics) which just isn't true. "

Your point is not true. Muslim-bashing is in no danger of becoming generalized as data on hate crime in the West show. Western-bashing (of which the ungrounded fear of rampant anti-Muslim backlash to Islamist terrorism is an example) is in danger of becoming generalized. Ungrounded fear of Islamophobia is prompting the institutionalization of Islamophilia. There really should be more of a backlash to that. And may I remind you that most Britons believe that Israel is the most dangerous state?

michael

The Council of Mosques states unequivocally that Britain is to become Islamic.
...Perhaps, after a degree of wailing and gnashing of teeth, the Baroness could share some of her reconciliatory enlightenment wrt this.

Noah Aaron Bashi

Santorum, the Jewish Orthodox are well integrated and respect the western cultures and laws it doesn't matter if they are in Europe or America, tell me How many Orthodox Jewish marry 4 wives in Britain? tell me, How many Orthodox Jewish put pressure in the British security services? tell me what you mean they are not integrated? We all know the Jewish are well integrated if they are Orthodox or non Orthodox and they add love, peace and friendship to every country they go.

Kepha

As a Yank, I have to admit that Melanie Phillips hit the nail on the head when she called Obama so multilateralist that he's on both sides of the same war.

My own guess is that while Qaddafi is a brutal thug who'll carry out mass murder if he wins, I'm also sure that the rebels have their own lists. They'll probably start with all those Libyans who waved the Cross of St. Andrew to welcome home the Lockerbie bomber--but for displaying a Christian symbol, not for welcoming a terrorist.

John.

Ian Townson: You appear not to realize that MI5 has foiled hundreds of Muslim plots to blow up innocent non-Muslims. It is only because of the professionalism and vigilance of the security services that Muslim violence has been held in check
sleeping dolls: right, it is more like 80% - 90%.