This Britain

BalaamsAss

I mused on the idiocy of our justice system and wondered how many forms and questionnaires have been filled in for Ian Brady. The questions would ask: How much exercise is Ian getting? Is Ian getting enough intellectual stimulation? Is Ian happy with the colour of the walls in his cell?

The revolting has been turned into the mundane.

cd

"Any business would ask its customers how it can improve its service."

Of course! To increase the number of customers! To increase repeat business!

How nice. We can all be criminals!

Kenulf

It hasn't made sense for some time Melanie. The trouble with cultural marxism is that you don't realise the extent of ills until it's too late to stop other than by counter revolution; but where is the cry coming from?

Nathaniel Courthope

One assumes the MPs currently doing time will be asking for a second cell near to their place of work if they get put on kitchen duties, and, of course, furnishing both cells with John Lewis bedsheets etc ...

Louis Berk

I think we should cease all forms of deterence for criminal activity. In return we must make drug dealers, thieves and murderers pay income tax on their endeavours (of which they can have the first £10,000 tax free per the revised personal taxation schedule). It is important to bring criminals into the taxation system because after all, the more successful or heinous their crimes the greater the tax revenues we will raise. I see the probation service as being the obvious way of introducing this change of policy, so well done Heather Munro for her forward-thinking initiative. After all the tax revenues can be used for the wider benefit of society. Makes a lot of senses, doesn't it?

Nicholas

Kenulf, correct. Until the cultural marxism is countered by a movement that specifically sets out to do so, and the current political parties stop buying into it, this will go on. I don't know whether it will end like East Germany or Rumania, but unless something is done now we shall have to run that same miserable course.

Neil Turner

There is a root cause at work here, and it is the growth of Secular Humanism

For 1500 years Britain was a Judaeo-Christian country, and our system of justice was based on this. Typically an eye for eye. If you did the crime, you were punished

Under Secular Humanism, there is no such thing as sin. No absolute standards of right and wrong, everything is relative

The last Labour Government did evrything it could to cauterise our J/C heritage from the system

Cameron, even more a liberal than Blair / Brown, has accellerated this process

The Church has now departed from the truths of the Bible. Liberal Jews don't waby to rock the boat. So no-one pushes back this evil tide

So secular humanism drives the agenda, and things will get much much worse before they get better

It Wasn't me, Gov

They should be invited to speak about their needs. You can imagine it can’t you?
‘I need to get out of here, gov. I’m agoraphobic. I need green open spaces. If I’m paying off a debt to society I expect a little quantitative easing - down the drain pipe.

Peter T

How do women and men with this or similar outlook obtain positions of authority in professions such as the probation service? They seem to have an upside down view of how the world works.

Ian

How do muppets like this get such top posts?

JA

Surely the National Probation Service’s customers are the taxpayers of the United Kingdom who fund the service, and not the convicted criminals ordered by the courts to the offices of the Probation Service.

Yaffle

With all due respect to Melanie, is this trend not due in part to the large numbers of women now employed in the traditionally male world of law & order?

Compassion and empathy are virtues when dealing with the sick and infirm; less so when dealing with crims.

cityca

Can you imagine predicting this madness, say 30 years ago? Anyone suggesting this might have found themselves committed to a psychiatric hospital, yet today, this is the norm.

How did this woman get and job, but more importantly, how is she able to keep it?

Ted

“It’s a bit like running a business.”

How many times have we heard that?

I first heard it applied to things that demonstrably weren’t businesses in the 80s. Blair then did the same thing with welfare. People on welfare are now also called customers. Whatever pig-ignorant simplification the Tories could come up with, Labour could copy and outdo them.

No doubt the probation service’s Heather Munro believes this is some sort of ‘blue sky/out of the box thinking’ when it is in fact a stale, stupid idea that seems to have infected every part of our public services.

Everything in public service is now reduced to its ‘business’ equivalent. But for much of the time there is no equivalence at all. That’s why it’s usually been part of public service.

One that really irks me is the stealth assault over many years on our libraries by all three parties. To me, libraries are an extension of the grammar school principle – at their very best, they used to be used as a form of academic selection by self-selection.

They were for people who aspired, who want to better themselves. Labour hates libraries because of that. Independence using intellect? Not on their watch, so they borrowed the Tory idea of upping the number of users – a very easy way to dumb down. Tee hee! What socialist fun!

The Tories hate libraries too because they think they should be run like run like a business – they started this nonsense in the 80s and now – having helped to destroy them – are circling for the final attack.

Witness John Redwood’s nasty attack the other day: ‘The library is seen as a force for self improvement and the pursuit of knowledge. I fear that in many case this is no longer true, if it ever was.’

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375030/John-Redwood-Libraries-middle-class-right-shut-them.html

And why would that be? Have you seen what’s happened to them? They have been converted into internet cafes and God knows what else. As one Spectator poster, Anne Wotana Kaye 1, put it last week: “The wonderful libraries of my youth have descended into Mother and Child hellholes of public feeding, poo and noise and now entered the final circle of Dante’s Inferno.”

http://www.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/6839998/coffeehousers-wall-4-april-10-april.thtml

Mr Redwood says the shelves are full of lightweight fiction. Of course they are!

Under pressure from the Tories and then Labour to raise the number of ‘users’ the tough, academic books got slung. Replaced with a rip-off café or a row of computers – or a load of soft-headed fiction.

Academic books are incredibly expensive, they are not in the Amazon bargain bucket or on Ebay for 50p. Further, they can be difficult to store for people who don’t have their own home, like, uh, young people and students. People who are so minded to study – and, yes, I know they will not be in their hordes – need things like that. Popularity should not come into it. Study requires hard work and commitment. We throw money at junkies but can’t find money for old-fashioned libraries.

So the libraries of old, where, if you wanted to academically hothouse yourself and a find a place of sanctuary for study with a quiet desk, has gone. I don’t care if the old libraries didn’t have lots of ‘users’. Why would they? Self-education and self-advancement is tough. But, as a society, we need it. It’s not worthless.

Every Tom, Dick and Chavvy should not be walking through the library doors to get out of the rain or pop on Facebook for a bit. They should be places where people can find the time and space to think. Somewhere away from noisy families and hustle and bustle.

If you want a drink, go to a café. If you want to use the internet, go to an internet café. Why does the library have to lose half itself to accommodate one?

Having run them down - and dumbed them down - for years on end, the political class has finally got libraries where it wants them. Libraries now merely replicate the dross on our scummy high streets, they’re just part of the homogenised cultural death of Britain. They have nothing unique to offer and so the politicians calculate they can safely be closed.

As a ‘customer’ who has to pay for molly coddling Heather Munro’s criminal charges, no doubt paying for their methadone an so on, along with everything else I help to pay for (£650m presents to Pakistan and suchlike), all I can say to the Tories, Labour and Limp Dims is this:

“Can I have a refund?”

Stew

how about make prison for truly dangerous criminals an experience that no sane individual would ever risk repeating.

VEBott

You left out colonic irrigation, Melanie.

Tiberius

Britain hasn't made sense since Harold Wilson won the 1964 general election.

I blame the Beatles with their incontinent musicianship.

DougS

@Neil Turner
April 14th, 2011 11:15am

"There is a root cause at work here, and it is the growth of Secular Humanism..."

What an interesting proposition - so it's not left wing, politically correct muppets to blame - it's all down to 'secular humanists'.

What a load of tosh!

Kenulf

We have reached a state in THIS country where to suggest other forms of governance is labelled "hate crime" by the baying chorus that constitute the new orthodoxy. The many are ruled by the few who tell us with a striaght face that are doing what we want and that it is good for us. If history tells us anything it is that this can only continue for so long.

Andy Carpark

Neil Turner: 'In this glorious future for which we are bound, there will be no criminals, only victims of inadequate social services.'

Evelyn Waugh, Love Among the Ruins

David

Melanie...was this part of the blog held over from April 1st?

pterodactyl

A Daily Mail article by a police inspector
"The neurosis about diversity is also reflected in the requirement to cater for every type of inmate, so our custody suites have a menu of no less than 16 choices, include low-carb, vegetarian, fat-free, kosher and halal."

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1375009/Political-correctness-crippling-police-force-Gay-Pride-badges-army-medals-out.html#ixzz1JUxvyJSw

Nicholas

"Can you imagine predicting this madness, say 30 years ago? Anyone suggesting this might have found themselves committed to a psychiatric hospital, yet today, this is the norm."

Indeed. I often ponder what the reaction might have been if you had told the men huddled in the slit trenches at the Imjun and about to find out all about "progressive thought conditioning" that in fifty short years their Homeland would be subsumed by it and they would not be allowed to smoke their fags in pubs.

Laurence

I remember an episode of the fantastic The Shield where some form of social worker enjoined Detective Vic Mackie to treat criminals as Ms Munro suggests. Vic's response: 'Or we could treat them like the lying, murdering scumbags they are'.

Trev

@Neil Turner
I think you are bang on mate.
@Doug'S
It is because of the growth of secular humanism that has allowed the "left wing, politically correct muppets" to have a free reign and do as they please.

Oflife

I have lived in various cities around the world (mainly in the US and UK), and without exception, in areas where criminals have been given leeway, crime is ongoing. Whether it is in business or in the home, extreme discipline works wonders. Just ask the military. And likewise, meet anyone from the forces, and you'll also be impressed by their good manners.

I don't mean to bring gender into the equation, but a lot of the crazy policies introduced by both governments were/are from women. They assume because they are the more compassionate gender that everyone else is the same way. It doesn't work like that. Nasty people exploit softness and vulnerability - they do not always embrase or adopt it.

Tiggy

YEP. I would not expect bit to get better anytime soon. This lot are no better than the previous.

Neil Craig

"Giving criminals the same consideration a company gives its customers will steer them away from committing future crimes"

That would be clinically insane if I thought for a minute she believed it.

The reason why companies try to give their customers a good experience is to encourage more customers. Encouraging n=more crime is not supposed to be the objective.

In fact, of course, that is exactly the objective of the Probation "service". "The purpose of government spending is to pay government employees and their friends" (Pournelle) and the purpose of Probation chief is to prodice more crime and hence criminals to employ more probation "service" parasites. Give me an honest bank robber any day.

Alex Bensky

This reminds me of the old quip--what is a social worker? It's someone who comes upon a man lying in the street, bleeding, badly beaten, and says, "We must find the person who did this; he needs help."

As to Stew's suggestion that prison should be an experience no one would want to undergo--the problem, Stew, is that you're assuming that criminals are rational actors who would modify their behavior by calculating that their chances of being caught and punished outweigh the chances of getting away with the crime.

But this is not in accordance with the fact--a fact recognized by all progressive and socially aware people--that criminals are just ordinary people who are victims of society.

Somewhere in Britain, I have read, there are people who think that what you need to do is show criminals the impact they have on their victims and once they realize this they will sin no more. How's that working out?

JA

No one seems to disagree with my earlier comment that UK taxpayers are the true customers of the Probation Service, do why don’t the customers exercise their right to look for another supplier? The UK educates foreign students for a fee, so why can’t foreigners help to reform our criminals for a fee? I’m sure that India or China could provide just as good a service as UK Probation, but cheaper. A reprieved “Ark Royal” could transport the criminals out, and the reformed citizens could find their own way back. Parliament has been sitting for centuries and things seem to be as bad as they ever were so maybe “padded cell” thinking, as exemplified by Ms Munro, is the way forward.

Neil Turner

Doug S

"What an interesting proposition - so it's not left wing, politically correct muppets to blame - it's all down to 'secular humanists"

IMHO Doug S secular humanism is the root of political correctness. PC doesn't recognise Judaeo-Christian principles or tradition. I can cite any number of Christians who have ended up on the wrong end of legal verdict on this matter

BTW, so too with Israel. Those same humanists who recognise no God will never accept Israel's Biblical link with the land

I would suggest that most left-wingers refuse to acknowledge the supremacy of God

I would also suggest that being left-wing is not mutually exclusive to anything I have stated

It's a shame you don't know how to debate. It's also a shame you can't make a point with being abusive

Ah well

mcmrjp

The government started this off whereby government depts. had business plans, targets, customer satisfaction et al. This is why the courts, police etc are in the state they are in. The have forgotten their raison d etre.

EDDIE

it boils down to this- we cannot afford to build new prisons especially id fighting several wars. If we can't jail them lets reduce the size of the police force and save even more money for the missiles. Liblabs show what you are made of.

SecularHumanistJusticeLeague

@Neil Turner

Hey, come on. Leave the 'religious nutcase' character to the the Muslims, they play it so much better than you cake eating Christians.

Of course you are right though. I mean, when's the last time anyone in the Church was caught breaking the law.... oh...

Jim

Obviously Mrs Munro has never been mugged , or hit on the head with copper piping .

Augustus

Jim - So not much work experience there then!

Derek Pasquill

... is a cesspit.

Arthur Lincoln

A couple of years ago I watched a video of a man called Brian Gerrish give a talk on something called "Common Purpose". Common Purpose is a registered educational charity.
He began his talk by saying: "Have you ever noticed that things don't work quite as well as they used to in this country"?
He then explained the effect Common Purpose was having throughout the country and provided base evidence of its influence with senior police and local authority officers etc.
At the time I considered Mr Gerrish to be a bit of a conspiracy theorist but as time has passed his views are now starting to make sense. This flight from reality by our ruling elite is planned and has an objective.

Shaun Harbord

It is difficult, if not impossible, to take seriously anythng that appears in The Daily Mail.

Kenulf

Nicholas, never mind 30 years ago. Read The Fox's Prophecy (1871) some people were predicting just this kind of collective national suicide as long ago as that. Upbeat ending though.

Frank Sutton

Ted - are you standing for Parliament? If not, why not?

Victoria Williams

Finally something I can agree with you on!

Santorum

The only way to read a Mail article is to read the last two paragraphs where you'll find buried the body or person under attack's defence. Supplement this with reading the 'worst rated' comments from readers. It's the only place you'll find anything approaching the Truth in the Mail.

Dai of Edinburgh

I was always led to believe that customers bought goods or services through engaging in a voluntary exchange system. How could a Shipman, Sutcliffe and West et all be treated respectably as customers in this market process? This woman's intellect has clearly been mercilessly ravaged by the PC virus and as such rendered rationally unfit for this responsible post. In other words, she is mercifully free from the ravages of intelligence.

daniel maris

I wouldn't mind how they were treated as long as we kept them there a lot longer.

Veracity

The woman wants to look at what actually happens.Perhaps she could disguise herself and do an 'undercover boss' scenario. The probation service does nothing and is in disarray. My nephew was recently on probation . He merely signed in and went away each week. They even told him off for being early. When they had to write a probation report they did not know what to say as they had not bothered to find out that we were turning his life around .We had asked them for help but none was forthcoming. Ask the police how effective the probation service is . It is uselss.

Roy

Britain has not made sense for some considerable time now. Surely this is just one nonsensical incident of many. It is indeed becoming alarmingly rare that one hears anything gratifyingly sane issuing forth from old Blighty.

vaselino

An insane asylum run by the inmates would be more sensible than this'

Alastair

Before you all jump on this comment I really think each case should be analysed individually and therefore I wouldn't want certain serious offenders in the circumstances you described.

However in school I used to hear that sometimes the one being the bully might be the one that has the problem.

So if you find out the problem and put an end to it, will he stop?

But how is that put into place? that prison feels like prison? Yet also have the facilities to potential help these people constructively. I can't believe that these people won't have serious problems in the first place. So by coming down hard on some of them and not putting in a system or a signs of humanity or help will you just drive them further?

Veracity

Well let's see what the prison system is like. The person I have recently visited is given his breakfast the night before to have in his cell. He can lounge around all day after that watching tv in his cell. He has to go out to collect his lunch and then can spend the rest of his day in his cell watching tv . He does not have to go to education or work if he does not choose to. He does not have to wash if he does not choose to. How is this reforming his character . Where is the discipline , where are the boundaries ? What on earth is happening, sewing mailbags would be more useful! Or even litter picking !

Miranda Rose Smith

Giving criminals the same consideration a company gives its customers will steer them away from committing future crimes, according to Mrs Munro. ‘It’s a bit like running a business,’ she said. ‘Any business would ask its customers how it can improve its service. It just doesn’t make sense not to.’

Businessmen want their customers TO COME BACK!!!!Does Ms. Munro really think prison wardens and probation officers want REPEAT OFFENDER? I thought the British Ministry of Education would put Monty Python out of business. If this is the reality, WHAT, I ask you, WHAT will the parody be?

Off topic: Happy Easter to all the Christians on this website. Happy Passover to all the Jews on this website.

DougS

@Neil Turner
April 14th, 2011 3:30pm

"It's a shame you don't know how to debate. It's also a shame you can't make a point with being abusive..."

I wouldn't dream of attempting to debate with an intellectual giant such as yourself.

You irrefutable evidence and impeccable logic are just too powerful. Statements like:

"There is a root cause at work here, and it is the growth of Secular Humanism..."

and

"..I would suggest that most left-wingers refuse to acknowledge the supremacy of God.."

just blow me out of the water.

What's your solution - burn them at the stake?

Miranda Rose Smith

Tiberius
April 14th, 2011 12:45pm
Britain hasn't made sense since Harold Wilson won the 1964 general election.

I blame the Beatles with their incontinent musicianship.

Dear Tiberias: The Beatles would never have been such successes if there hadn't been a popular mood that sympathized with them, their ideas and their music.

I don't remember any one of them being incontinent. Do you mean incompetent?

catesby

‘Any business would ask its customers how it can improve its service. It just doesn’t make sense not to.’

The mistake here is to think the criminals are the customers. Actually, Society is the customer. When I pay a company to take away my garbage, it is not the garbage who is the customer, but me.

JA

Catesby: “The mistake here is to think the criminals are the customers.”
That is exactly the point that I made earlier. There’s an email address:
ComplaintsDepartment@london.probation.gsi.gov.uk
to write to if you think that the lady is deluded if she believes that criminals who are ordered by the courts to attend her offices are her customers. They have to attend even if they’re not provided with comfy chairs and soft music, so any of your money that she spends to make their experience more pleasant is wasted.

chrisH

Oh it does Malanie-as well you know.
A name like Heather Munro surely needs to get herself back north of the wall and commit herself to asking Maghrahi to stop by for tea and shortbread next time Scottish Justice Icon Number one pops back for better palliative care-bit too pally if you ask me!
Good to know that the BBC think that Alex Salmond will be standing in Liverpool soon, given his sofa spot on the ludicrous Question Time-only question is why we dumbnuts continue to pay for all this!

Celato

Like a couple of others here, I too have a healthy distrust of the Daily Mail's reporting. Whenever possible I check against other news providers. In this particular case, I tried to find the original Guardian story which the Mail cites as its source - but to no avail.

I'd be very grateful for help on this from anyone with better internet search skills than my own.

AF

JA,
dont feel alone,I've often advocated the farming out of our prison service.You could keep it within the E.U.invite tenders from countries such as Albania,Bulgaria and the like see who's running the most cost effected system.They will be happy for the business,we'd be quids in,bingo.

Suffolkbor

Celato:
Just Google;
Heather Munro The Guardian and click on the first link at the top of the page.
The article is by Rachel Williams.

Douglas Bass

It is indeed like a business, except that the prisoners aren't the customers, the general public are the customers.

daniel maris

Miranda,

It's interesting when you go back to the early sixties, you see that the mood for abandoning deference was widespread. There was one article I recall I think where the Beatles were prevented from eating at a restaurant for some sartorial indiscretion and that was treated as a big issue.

Miranda - I think incontinent in this context means "wild and unrestrained" in contrast to Semprini and His Orchestra which was what kids were being forced to listen to on the "Light Programme".

Celato

Suffolkbor:

Many thanks - I spelt Munro "Munroe" in error and hit the buffers. Guardian website controllers are obviously terrible sticklers for accuracy!

mike harris

Such is the current zeitgeist-if you tell your neighbour that the council have passed bye-laws, making it incumbent on householders to provide ramps at their home, in order to assist disabled burglars, at least half of them seem to accept it-it sounds right! (As long as you don't smile when you're telling them).

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Pity Mrs Monroe doesn't work for those who are supposed to take care of the helpless aged, especially those eho find themselves in the ill-named 'care homes' where they are left to curl up and die. Aren't these old timers who probably worked and paid taxes all their lives entitled to the same respect as criminals? Or is there crime the greatest possible in modern day Britain, growing old?

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Sorry I spelt Munro with an 'e' at the end. Must have been thinking of dumb blondes - except Marilyn wasn't dumb.

Amanda Has Alligators

My aunt makes herself feel good by going around as a charity worker speaking on behalf of prisoners. She likes it because going into prisons makes her look progressive, gives her a frisson of danger-glamour when she can say 'yes, I feel generally safe', and because prisoners are obliged to call her 'Mrs --------'.

One of the prisoners complained about her to some authority or other (the prison?).

One member of our family has asked her, 'How about helping the law-abiding instead?'

Oh, but that wouldn't flatter her self-image, you see.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Mr. Maris: Thanks.

Reuven

*Criminals should be treated as customers blah blah blah...*

Is this some kind of a joke?

Sirrod

I completely agree with Munro's comments. These treatments would be for far less serious offenders. The system at the moment is clearly not working as there are still many people reoffending. Therefore, do people not think it wise to try a completely different approach? I strongly believe that by treating offenders politely and respectfully can help boost their self-esteem which is something lacking in many offenders. This would then lead to a better ability for offenders to empathise with their victims. On having nicer surroundings, offenders will feel more at ease in their sessions with probation officers making them more cooperative and open. Surely therefore, an improved service like this would save money as the system would be much more smooth and fluid. It must be stressed that noone is suggesting that this new approach should be used with murderers and rapists.

Miranda Rose Smith

One member of our family has asked her, 'How about helping the law-abiding instead?'

Dear Amanda: Yes. She could visit elderly people in nursing homes. Well, to each his own.

I could tell you some stories about what happens when one does volunteer teaching in a prison and the convicts look you up after they're released. It happened to a friend of mine, in college.

Augustus

Sirrod - You are really the benighted Liddle, and I claim my prize!

daniel maris

Here's a very serious proposal:

Detention of young people costs about £150,000 per person per annum.

Why instead of locking them up here for a short period, don't we send them on supervised 2 year cruises around the world.

They would be in a disciplined adn healthy environment. They could be educated on board, and work on board...and exercise, play games etc on board.

We could maybe negotiate with countries stop offs where they might contribute to other societies by undertaking construction works or similar.

We could also send repeat offenders who are causing mayhem in their local areas. Maybe we could have 10 boats with say 1000 people on board. Even if it costs £50,000 per annum, it will work out cheaper and the yougn people concerned will I believe have a far more positive experience.

logdon

The Beatles existed in an era of heady aspiration and patriotism.

Their lyrics reflected a love of Victoriana, Swiftian satire, the Goons, English wordplay, free thought and speech and a social awareness which elevated mere pop into thoughtful comment.

Their genius was that we could all relate.

Only after the breakup did Lennon descend into his self absorbed political absurdity. And his record sales reflected that.

McCartney took a while longer, only to be defrocked by his naivity in choosing a mono legged second marriage partner.

There is absolutely no comparison between then and now.

Max

We certainly don't make any sense and this place is sinking faster than the boiler room of the Titanic

George Steiner

It must be nice to have the luxury, to discuss the same things for thirty years. Crime, education, immigration, EU, decline. Without a hope in hell to have any change at all in any of it. This is the pinnacle of decadence.

Gerryg

Melanie:- Do you think we can get Alan Rickman interested in a play titled "My Name Is Vittorio Arrigeri"?

Mustapha Bunn

Gerry G @ 4.33,18/4 ... was wondering when Mr.Arrigoni's name would come up.
It's been a couple of days since his untimely end and yet there's been absolutely nothing from the usual suspects.

Margaret Muller Johansson

I think this woman is just another naive silver spoon fed lefty, we should not promote criminals like they are okay people because this will make other criminals from other parts of the world immigrate to Britain. In my opinion criminals should get what they deserve they should not be treated like customers or kings.

Jerry Owen

Daniel Marris 5.40

For one fleeting moment I thought you were serious.....
Black humour a great British thing.

Rory

I certainly agree that the Police should do'policing': but then that would require they get thie rnoses out of health issues - like the war on drugs for example.

Mustapha Bunn

Margaret @ 9.44am .. "other criminals from other parts of the world immigrate to Britain".
I thought they already did !

Michael White

I knew this all sounded familiar.......

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/gloucestershire/6048718.stm

"...Police negotiators agreed to deliver fried chicken and cola to him as he refused to leave the roof..."

Gerry

If Alan Rickman won't do "My Name Is Vittorio Arrigoni", maybe he would be interested in "My Name Is Daniel Viflic".

Nah, I don't think so.

Mustapha Bunn

Gerry @ 3.45pm ..The Guardian has mentioned Mr.Arrigoni and there is some wailing and gnashing of teeth.However it is interesting to read comments made on the blog ref. this matter ... those that have survived the Guardians' censor that is.

No More failed reactionary policies

When is the right wing of this country ever going to face up to the facts? That kicking the arses of people who have committed crimes, locking them up and throwing the key away just makes you feel better- it does not reduce crime- it increases crime and costs a fortune. Well may you lot sneer at Liberal proposals- you have no solutions- only rhetoric.
Maybe a business model is not an ideal one to follow-but a service and a needs led model is. Trying to turn the Probation Service into a law enforcement agency is to miss a crucial opportunity to reduce re-offending. It isn't about being soft- it is about reducing crime.

Jerry Owen

'No more failed reactionary politics'

You say locking criminals up and throwing away the key doesn't work.
What planet do you live on?
It is precisely because we don't lock people up and throw away the key that more crime happens. People get conviction after conviction reoffend and reoffend and still don't get locked up.
The death penalty for murderers that destroy families forever would be far cheaper than imprisoning them which by the way can be as little as several years.
Making inmates work for their food would be a good business idea I think. No work no food, murder and your hung.
Sounds good business to me.

Amanda

Miranda: Thanks for your comments.

David, Thailand

"Britain – it just doesn’t make sense any more."

The problem is it does make sense, to the fools in charge.

Hexhamgeezer

...and Munro's business experience is..? (clue - zero)

Ian Hills

I have an alternative suggestion.

No more probation, just new budget prisons on remote Scottish islets, and if you don't do enough hard labour, you don't get your privileges, like food.

Offenders must be punished, not "understood".

Naturally, the Guardian and the BBC will report any deaths from exposure and overwork.

Such news will dramatically reduce the crime rate.

Derek BLADES

Heather Munro has a point. Treating probationers as people of worth whose opinions are valued might actually encourage them to become - well - people of worth.

What Heather Munro is proposing is in line with policies in Scandinavia where - surprise, surprise - rates of crime, recidivism and incarceration are all lower than in the United Kingdom.

The current emphasis on punishment as an end in itself is obviously not working and more of the same won't help. Good luck to Heather Munroe!

Nina d'Oliveyra

It looks like the West is suffering from brain damage on a massive scale. Common sense is out of fashion and people calling themselves intelligentsia have the same contempt for facts as the fundamentalist religious mobs.
Kudos to you, Melanie Phillips!

David Hughes

Wait a minute.
We cannot simply ignore these comments without first examining where these comments and ideas have come from.They have come from us, as a collective society. We encourage and nurture our children to be tolerant and kind to our fellow human beings. This has been passed down the generations and will continue to be long after we are all gone. I personally am proud to be part of a generation where these thoughts and ideas can be expressed out loud without fear of ridicule and i am sure Mrs Munros comments have not been expressed without a lot of soul searching and self analysis.