Whoops, what a giveaway

Dee Ranged

Oh! I like it Melanie.

Tommy

No wonder Richard Littlejohn calls him Dirty Hari.

With these two articles he certainly lives up to that name - faeces in hand, hurling it Israel's way and hoping some of it will stick.

Dr Martin Meenagh

I want to join any conspiracy you are a part of Mel, especially if it annoys the Independent. Keep on going on!

Ravi

As he's got "Johann Hari" for brains and the Independent is only fit for cleaning up after him. I note for someone who says they aren't an Antisemitie that a lot of his argument is about Jews whereas he started with an article on Israel. I prefer to trust the victims of racism whether they are being racially abused rather than the abuser who doesn't wish to be hampered by the mere trifle of being racist in their full invective flow.

field

He's free to criticise Zionism and I don't buy the idea we have to be careful how we criticise the ideology of political or religious movements in case some nutter then goes off and physically attacks the followers of those movements or persons taken to be followers of the movements.

However, it's a pathetic article. It completely fails to distinguish between the essential decency of Israeli society and the genocidal culture in Hamas's Gaza where children's TV encourages children to become suicide bombers and attack Jews everywhere. Why on earth should Israel take a gamble on Hamas when it's absolutely clear what their agenda is.

Johann Hari employs the old double standard all the way through his article. He says:

"This is no freak: a 2004 report by Friends of the Earth found that only six per cent of Israeli settlements adequately treat their sewage."

Well I wonder how many Palestinian, or Egyptian or Jordanian settlements adequately treat their sewage.
Is it 6% or 0%?

Frank Pulley

Joan has obviously been missing the flagellation once inflicted upon him by Scott Burgess via The Daily Ablution blog. Since Scott withdrew from the fray, Hari has had a lean spell. Steady Melanie! You may be feeding an unwholesome proclivity. Or perhaps it could be that, as with all attention seekers, excoriation is better than being ignored.

Charles

Google "Israeli Art Students" is all I can say (the Salon.com article is detailed, see 'cache' version).

And before you accuse me of anything, let me just add that I only learned about this from last week's newspapers following the US Israeli spy arrest.

Adam B.

Hari's response is emotional, you can see it in the language he employs. When one writes through high emotion, the product is rarely rational. Also, why is he emotional? I would suggest because he is writing through hatred, not as an outside observer. And he's a professional?

Joshua

"He's free to criticise Zionism"

Demonisation of a nation or calling for its destruction is not criticism. If I suggest that much of Europe openly collaborated in the Holocaust and still hangs on to most of the property which was stolen from the Jews who were murdered, that is criticism. If I go on to suggest that as result Europe is inherently evil and has no moral right to exist, that is something else entirely.

Joshua

"I don't buy the idea we have to be careful how we criticise the ideology of political or religious movements in case some nutter then goes off and physically attacks the followers of those movements or persons taken to be followers of the movements."

I know what you mean. I personally was a participant in the famous "London riots" of 2002 when 50,000 Jews took to the streets of the capital, burning and looting, in protest at a Guardian article.

d gray

I read his article and it seemed driven by a fury that anyone should dare call him on the lies in his original piece.If you write dog dirt Mr Hari expect to get your face rubbed in it.

Joshua

"Google "Israeli Art Students" is all I can say"

Google "Jews" + "Anything bad that has happened in the last 2000 years" and you'll also find countless articles.

Water

"fraudulent scholarship" now there's something I've come across all too often.

THX1138

This spate with Johan Hari is not about Israel or Zionism ( I admit I have no idea who is right probably somewhere in the middle) it's all about Melanie's insecurities & inability to even the most mild criticism from fellow journalists. In the last year I have read her go thermonuclear in this blog & in print over the smallest slights with the disciples pilling in behind in the comments.

A few recent examples

Snotty letter fired off to Private Eye over the Dave Gaubatz & WMD affair after the Eye pointed out a few of the other wackier assertions of Mr Gaubatz.

Leathering of Gudio Fawkes in this blog for the most mild mickey take of "Mad Mel" on his blog.

Full blown rant against David Aaronovitch also on this blog for mild criticism of Mel's position re The Rowan Williams Sharia law saga in his Times column.

And now It Johan's turn again

I enjoy this blog very much but I do think that someone who hands it out in such spades needs to be able it on the chin when it comes back.

Dave

So does untreated sewage pour from Israeli settlements into Palestine then? That being the original point of his article

J. Isaacs

THX - I do love your mixed metaphor about someone "who hands it out in such spades" being able to "take it on the chin." Clearly you are unaware whether journalism is a bridge game, a prize fight or a building site. I put it to you that journalism on any subject from any period in history is and has been almost exclusively about either handing "it out in spades" or in hearts, but mainly in spades.

Frank Pulley

Dave asks: "So does untreated sewage pour from Israeli settlements into Palestine then? That being the original point of his article."

Not nearly as much as flows from the keyboard of "Dave" I would guess. And if he really thinks that was the point of Hari's article he's even dimmer than I thought he was.

Henry

THX1188 (surely the most pretentious poster name on the web), Melanie has the same right of reply that you and everyone else has.

If you're involved in public debate, that's what you do.

I can see you and plenty of others would like to shut Melanie up but it clearly ain't gonna happen.

Dave

Frank: It was the original point of Hari's piece which Melanie didn't address. So I just wondered if it was true?
I can assure you my keyboard is spotless.

Michael B

One irony is that Hari writes at a rag that calls itself "the independent," when "the clique" or "the conformist" would be more apropos. But referring to Finkelstein and Carter benignly as "Israel's critics" is tantamount to placing John Wilkes Booth under the rubric of "Lincoln's critics" and then proceeding to ponder over the topic of "the loathsome smearing of Lincoln's critics" (after noting how he went under cover at an earlier point to uncover Mary Surratt's part in the plot).

Hari appeals is fellow members of his cliques, and they respond with Pavlovian predictability.

Henry Balfour

Case proved, I think.

I think not. The case that can be made out of this is that the "world-wide Jewish/Zionist/Likudnik conspiracy" is perfectly illustarted by the likes of "Mel" and the sychophantic bunch of panderers who post all these tiresome Me Too's in the comments section. That she has generated such huge quantities of pro-Zionist confection doesn't make her right, it just makes her shrill. Finkelstein is ever the better human than this crapulous apologist for the mutation of Zionism from the proud traditions of Torah-true Jewery.

Joe Strummer

The Palestinians have an almost pathological addiction to "victimhood". Even if they got everything they wanted in a new independent country they would still be whining and complaining of their "oppression" from either internal or external forces out to get them some way or another.

"Journalists" like Hari will just never understand this.

Matt

"Finkelstein calls Holocaust survivors ‘frauds and hucksters’, says American Jews are ‘parasites’ and supports Hezbollah." And all she can cite is CAMERA. Journalistic fairness at its finest. As the son of Holocaust survivors, I am confident in saying that Finkelstein never made such broad statements that Melanie Phillips attributes to him. Regarding "support for Hezbollah," Finkelstein has said he doesn't care about them as a political organization, but that he supports their resistance against the Israeli invasion. Phillips is no doubt intentionally misrepresenting Finkelstein or has not actually listened to anything he's said. You'd have to be an utter moron to interpret it any other way. Go watch the tape. Or don't, just cite CAMERA.

Soreofhing

Melanie, I have a question for you.
Have you ever made a seriously damning criticism of anything concerning Israel?
Or do your rose coloured glasses always oblige you to see all things bright and beautiful in Israel, and all things dark and evil in those who criticise Israel or Zionism?

LanceThruster

Dr. Finkelstein and Pres. Carter have more credibility and integrity than you or anyone you've cited. The nature of bullies for Zionism is that they swarm on anyone who might reject the official narrative. That you or plagiarist Alan Dershowitz might not actually be 'sent' is just a product of the fact those acting in the manner of a sayan are like multi-level marketers, independently owned and operated.

It seems that Zionists have long claimed to speak for the majority of Jews and are quick to label those taking issue with the apartheid state of Israel as anti-Semitic.

Thankfully, this is slowly but surely starting to change. Those doing the most to open my eyes to this have been Jewish voices. I am swayed by the quality of their arguments rather than by the size of their following, which as expected will grow over time as did the perceptions in the American South that slavery, racism, and Jim Crow laws have no place in an enlightened society.

A beautifully insightful take on this is the essay by Fredy Perlamn (Anti-Semitism and the Beirut Pogrom) found here: http://kurtnimmo.com/perlman/01.html

Ann

It is entirely predictable that Sureofnothing and all his little friends in the society for excusing any and all pathological hatred of the Jews, should try to turn a perfectly reasoned argument from Mel on its head, completely misunderstanding it and failing to apply basic logic. And that is being generous: it's far more likely that they understand it all too well, but feel obliged to throw a tantrum and a handful of Jew-hating mud, hoping that some of it may stick. Well, it does - but only to themselves.
Exposing antisemitic hatred is not remotely the same as refusing to criticise anything to do with Israel. But this conflation is the only demagogic tool left to Jew-haters, except for the other non-argument of ranting against Zionism as a code-word for Jews.

THX etc - yes, the most pretentious screen name ever - admits he has no idea who is right, and yet he has the nerve to pronounce that it's 'somewhere in the middle'. And on what basis, exactly? On the basis that there is symmetry between the racist and his victim? Well, there is none. The truth is not in the middle. The truth is that Jews are being subjected to antisemitic attacks, and have every right to defend themselves.

I can assure Matt and others of his kind that Finkelstein has published a great deal of pathological nonsense about Holocaust survivors being greedy blackmailers and part of the 'Holocaust industry'. Anyone who can write such sick crap is not a 'great human' but the absolute dregs of humanity. The survivors are only asking for what is theirs by right: assets stolen outright and hidden in Swiss bank accounts etc, and compensation for the worst evil ever perpetrated by one group of people against another. If Matt and Finkelstein don't think the survivors are entitled to the above, they are free to say so politely (although I can't think of a sane reason why the survivors shouldn't be so entitled). But to accuse them of blackmail and worse is beneath contempt. And I don't even want to start on Carter and his demented rants.

Dr Meenagh: hear, hear!

Adam B.

Matt, well done for listing your Holocaust credentials. How offensive to use this to make some silly point. Finklestein is a cretin. What kind of clown accepts an invitation by the Oxford Union to speak ON BEHALF of Israel, then vilifies Israel throughout the debate and finally votes against himself? Instead of attacking Camera, perhaps you can offer some conflicting evidence to that provided by Melanie? Incidentally, Finklestein also said that Britney Spears should play Anne Frank in a "Holo-porn" video. You think this is reasonable academic discourse, to be taken seriously? And it may also interest you that far far "resisting" an "Israeli invasion", Hizbollah launched the summer 2006 war, with an unprovoked cross border raid into Israel to kidnap and kill soldiers, followed by 4000 missiles aimed at Israeli civilians. Israel's defensive action came AFTER Hizbollah had started the war, not before.

Adam B.

By the way Matt, Hizbollah is in the process of overthrowing the Lebanese government as we speak. Perhaps Finklestein supports their right to do that too. Is this "resistance" as well?

Ann

The majority of Jews do support an independent state for their nation in its homeland Israel, the ignorant rants by Lance 'I am a great warrior in my own imagination' Thruster's notwithstanding. That makes them Zionists. Perhaps Master Thruster is one of those who have no idea whatsoever what Zionism is, or about anything else to do with Jewish history. That would certainly explain how he can come out with such a hilariously silly assertion as 'Dr. Finkelstein and Pres. Carter have more credibility and integrity than you or anyone you've cited'. Must be a contender for the silliest post of 2008.

ahad ha'amoratzim

Henry Balfour, as to the "mutation of Zionism from the proud traditions of Torah-true Jewery", why do I suspect that your knowledge of either Zionism or Torah-true Jewry is no more accurate than your obviously limited knowledge of orthography?

ahad ha'amoratzim

"plagiarist Alan Dershowitz" -- Finkelstein's false cahrges against Desrhowitz have been thoroughly refuted. But that's okay, Lance -- after all Dershowitz is a Zionist, so it's okay to libel him.

And you have the stones to talk about integrity?

Soreofhing

"By the way, Matt, Hizbollah is in the process of overthrowing the Lebanese government as we speak".
Adam B.

"By the way Adam, Ehud Barak is in the process of being accused of corruption as we speak".

I wonder if this case will be silenced in Israeli courts, just as in the cases of corruption and receiving kickbacks regarding Ariel Sharon and his sons.

They say you shouldn't speak ill of the dead, but The Butcher isn't quite dead yet is he.

Dave

So do Israeli settlements pour untreated sewage into Palestine?

GZ

What on earth is going on over there in the UK ? The Jew ... I mean the Zionist/AIPAC/NeoCon bashing is bad over here, but it seems surreal over there. The comments on the Hari piece are frightening.

Mike (the original)

Howard Jacobson on Johann Hari, or Jacobson banging Melanie and Johanns' heads together!

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/howard-jacobson/howard-jacobson-if-there-really-is-a-smear-campaign-to-try-to-silence-the-critics-of-israel-it-isnt-working-825467.html

Adam B.

Soreofhing, your posting is a good example of the complete lack of perspective in the left. Firstly, it is Ehud Olmert who is facing accusations, not Ehud Barak (try to keep up). Secondly, I would like to know one other country in the Middle East (or even in Europe for that matter) where the judiciary is independent enough to bring such accusations against the Prime Minister - can't see it happening in Syria or Saudi Arabia, can you? Thirdly, and this is the perspective point, you think that it is equivalent to Hizbollah violently taking control of the Lebanese government - (it's called a coup - not very democratic, is it?) You finish your posting with a message of sheer hatred. In light of your factual inaccuracy, lack of perspective and hatred, why should any reasonable person listen to anything you have to say?

Adam B.

Dave, where's "Palestine"? Perhaps you can define its borders. By the way, are you aware of untreated sewage in the UK?

Michael B

Hari's two pieces, referred to and linked in the originating post, are laden with venom and a certain type of mendacity that is not at all uncommon when it comes to topics related to Israel and the Sunni Arab population in Gaza and the West Bank.

The problem is it would take perhaps a 5,000 word piece to properly and thoroughly respond to all of Hari's varied corruptions. How many of those corruptions are consciously deployed (i.e. mendacities) vs. less consciously is difficult, at best, to assess - though at least some of what he forwards reflects such blatant distortions that it's difficult to imagine a certain level of deceit and a similar incurious quality does not consciously inform or even pervade his articles.

Howard Jacobson, in the piece linked by Mike, serves to thoughtfully reprove a portion of what Hari forwards and Jacobson is to be commended for such a conscientious effort. Still, Jacobson's is a too kind and too genteel piece given the varied, multi-faceted corruptions in Hari's offerings. Further, it only begins to correct the totality of what needs to be redressed. Still, in Jacobson, a more genuine insight and conscience - and independence - can be found.

Michael B

It is also worth emphasizing that those members of Hari's claques and cliques who are commenting at his sight are at best a profoundly incurious lot and at worst are genuinely reprehensible. They include, it should be noted, those who align themselves with the Israeli and Jewish Left and they range from seeming dullards (a certain repetitious commenter in this thread) on through to those whose incurious quality is "more developed."

It wouldn't be worth calling attention to such combinations of glaring and less glaring fits of mendacity and blatantly incurious qualities excepting, when it comes to Israel, the venomists and vapidists, together with the simpletons and the simply naive, take an unusual amount of pride in forwarding their "opinions." Historically, politically, socially, culturally, institutionally and otherwise it can be a problematic subject to say the least; still, the Hari's of the world make a mini-industry out of forwarding their deeply contorted histories and opinings and it reflects a malignant cancer of a particular kind, one not at all conducive to hopes for better comprehensions, much less hopes for more stability and peace in the region, conceived within a realist framework.

Ann

"So do Israeli settlements pour untreated sewage into Palestine?"

No, they don't. There is no such place as 'Palestine'.

jill

I read Hari's interview of Martin Amis - his only concern was whether Amis' views made him (Amis) a racist, and therefore could not make sense of his (Amis') remarks which dealt with the issues of Islamofascism and several other matters.

I concluded from this article that he (Hari) is a tool.

I am always happy to be proved wrong in this sort of case and if Hari improves or gfrows up I will be pleased to changed my mind. Doesn't seem likely though.
As for Carter? Should have stayed on the farm.

phil

Mike I am indebted for pointing out Howard's article ,and I have of course read it really seems to follow my thought path rather than yours .so I responded to that article ,but you will find nothing new in what I have said before -are you coming round to my way of thinking or did you not understand Howard's message ?below is what I wrote -------------
""Well said Howard ,a logical and sensible critique of the distortions and downright lies that are put about on this sorry subject -
"Kevin: "Laugh.....by the way, are you Jewish, Jacobson?? "
How can anyone make a sensible case when this sort of comment is published ?it says right below that offensive comments will be removed -how offensive does this need to be ?-
------A huge majority of both Jews and Israelis empathise with the plight of the Palestinians,but that does not mean we agree with their case or their actions ,what is required is that both peoples sit down with reasonable will to solve the issues and obviously that will require a lot of that goodwill to achieve success,Hatred fuelled by the likes of the comment above will only stoke the fires and preclude any chance of success-Howard has shown a sensible attitude to one he does not agree with not with hate filled passion ,just sound common sense.

Mike (the original)

The Johann Hari 'update' can be seen with readers comments at:
http://blogs.independent.co.uk/openhouse/2008/05/beyond-the-boun.html#more

Mike

Phil: re Howard Jacobson.....I can go along with what you write. Perhaps we are meeting each other half-way.

I'm trying to drop 'the orginal' tag......seems the other 'Mike' has gone on a walkabout!

Soreofhing

Just read Johann Hari's brilliant article.
He really hits the nail on head.

The offensive, undemocratic smear of "Your're an anti Semite" has been used (and continues to be used on this blog)constantly with the clear aim of silencing all and any criticism of Israel and/or Zionism.

Yes. "Semitic McCarthyism" is the new name of this ugly animal and seems to be a fair title for this tactic.

James

"'Sent in', eh? By whom, exactly? By the world-wide Jewish/Zionist/Likudnik conspiracy, of course. Yup, it’s those Protocols again." I think Melanie is doing her own side a disservice by making so much of a simple verb. Johann Hari could have hardly hoped for better proof of some of his assertions. Yes, he is very foolish on certain things, but he is not an antisemite, is not suggesting Melanie is part of a conspiracy and does not believe in the Protocols.

Michael B

So Hari now informs us that when Jimmy Carter speaks he (Carter) simply conveys "facts." And that's the least of the amusements he's most recently selling. Treating the protocols comment in a literalist fashion seems to have served his purposes as well. What soporific, self-flattering boorishness, yet it's all conveyed so earnestly.

Hari seems to write with three rules in mind, 1) lay it on thick, 2) lay it on thicker still and 3) declare victory. He certainly has #1 and #2 down pat.

phil

sorething I do not normally bother to address you because you have become very boring with your continual attacks on Israel but I do admire your stamina in the face of constant laughter at your thoughts -But your quote below caught my attention viz
""The offensive, undemocratic smear of "You're an anti Semite" has been used (and continues to be used on this blog)constantly with the clear aim of silencing all and any criticism of Israel and/or Zionism."" CAN YOU REASSURE US THAT THIS DOES NOT APPLY TO YOU ?it would help us to evaluate your mission -thank you in advance

Matt

Firstly, I was referring to Finkelstein's Holocaust credentials, not my own. Secondly, Finkelstein fully supports compensation for Holocaust survivors. If anyone had actually bothered to read the Holocaust Industry they'd know this. His argument is that Jewish organizations have sued for compensation in the name of these survivors while paying out little of it and lining their own pockets. Read the book.

London Calling

Front Page

Melanie prods Hornets Nest and is attacked by the swarm.

Lucky she wore her net eh?

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Ann

Undemocratic, eh? Sureofnothing, do you even know what the word 'democratic' means, or are you deliberatly trying to make yourself look silly?
Democracy certainly does not prohibit me from calling antisemites just that: antisemites. The absurd argument that you should not hurt the delicate sensibilities of antisemites by exposing them as such, cuts no ice with me. Up here, we speak as we find. If you can counter specific accusations with facts, rather than scream at those 'undemocratic' posters for exposing antisemites, let's see you do it. But of course, you can't: you know nothing about Jews or Israel. You are using this blog purely to give expression to your insecurities and inferiority complex, so of course, as usual, it's 'the Jews' wot dun it in the minds of people like you.

Adam B.

Matt, you've offered no conflicting evidence to that supplied by Melanie other than the cretin Finklestein himself. Why are you so impressed that Finklestein is the son of Holocaust survivors, like that exonerates his lunacy? Elie Wiesel is a Holocaust survivor himself (not a "son of") and finds Finklestein's ramblings deeply offensive. Do you dispute the quotes I have provided of Finklestein, and do you think them acceptable?

John Edwards

I used to think Norman Finkelstein was a fringe extremist figure as often depicted until I took the trouble to actually read what he had written and listened to some of his lectures. What I discovered was a surprising constrast to the distorted image created by his critics. I highly recommend www.normanfinkelstein.com for those readers interested in the reality.

Michael B

John Edwards,

It would be far more interesting if you were to list and perhaps give a brief explanation of three or four of the most salient views of Finkelstein's that you deem to be noteworthy, within the general discussion.

Proudly Soreofhing

I shouldnīt really stoop to answer Phil or Ann, there are so.............cavalier, when it comes to hard facts.

So in your eyes it is acceptable to use the smear of anti Semite and thus quash open debate.
My grievance is chiefly with Israeli foreign policy and their inhuman treatment of their neighbours. Attacking, overbearing, land theft, use of illegal weapons, use of undemocratic practices such as locking up (usually Arabs) and denying them legal protection, whitewashing of Israeli army misdeeds, theft of sub soil water resources....the list goes on and on and on.

These are just not things that decent democratic countries do (with the possible exception of Dubya and his ignoble authorization of water boarding).
So in your eyes, when I throw this lot of Israeli filth in your faces I am being anti Semitic!

So really, your blatant flinging around of the term anti Semite is really Semitic McCarthyism and you are identifying yourselves with a despicable period in US history.

So my fine Israeli apologists, I shall treat your widespread accusations of anti Semitism with the respect they deserve.

Instead of using this overused term, why donīt you attempt to justify the facts that I usually present and try something a little more original and more intellectually substantial than "Youīre a Jew hater, your Arab friends, you are so full of hate, you don't know anything, I wont answer you, or that good old chestnut: You are an anti Semite!" ad. nauseum?

I fully understand that your task is unenviable if not impossible.

phil

sorething (can you please tell us what that means)-- I am happy that you have eventually revealed your true purpose here ---quote""So in your eyes, when I throw this lot of Israeli filth in your faces I am being anti Semitic""

I note your grievances,but do you have any with the other side ? you know balance?-- starting with 1948 May, when the attacks started ,you may wish to explain how you would have reacted in a state voted into existence by United Nations -also try 1967-1973---HESBOLLAH , HAMAS ,IRAN -but we could go on couldn't we-?check out the grand mufti -hitlers ally in his bunker -oh enough ,you will be writing forever .but I will have some respect for you if you try

I don't remember ever calling you an anti-Semite it is not a term that I like ,but as you have called yourself exactly that ,far be it from me to disagree with you -as for me -I am known to most people as a liberal person who seeks reconciliation between the Palestinians and the Israelis with justice for both sides .unlike you methinks-as for McCarthyism you really must be joking ,he certainly would suit you ,not me -I will ask one small favour though -do not use Ann,s terminology to you in particular, as my words .I have often asked her not to post in this way ,which perhaps you have read .but in your case I can well understand why she does it .I agree I have mocked you previously only because I think you are a foolish young man who is involved in sick politics and possibly incurable .but maybe if you mixed with some Jewish people you might realise that our culture is one of charity ,tolerance and kindness and thereby you may be saved from this life of hate.

Just to finish in order to help you not all Jews are Zionists, a term of which I am sure you do not understand -try Wikipedia .or even read what I wrote to Ravi and Ahad earlier

I do expect further insults and that you will continue down patricia,s road , but a Jewish wish is that if we save one soul we have saved the world ,so I wish you luck

Soreofhing

Thank you Phil for your reasonable posting. I appreciate a polite answer.
I agree with you that name hurling is infantile and I shall try to refrain from it.
I have indeed known several Jewish people during my lifetime (I know itīs an old chestnut but during my schooldays my best friend really was a Jew and I have fond memories of him and his kind mother who lived in Burnt Oak). Paul even taught me the Hebrew alphabet which I can still vaguely recount.
My days in business have given me other insights however. Nuff sed.
You are quite right that the Arabs have many repulsive customs and are guilty of many a sin in the Middle East.
I doubt that this verbal jousting will convince either of us to change our deeply held ideas but perhaps we might moderate our extreme views a little and come to some sort of uneasy understanding. Such a thing is indeed required if the Middle East is not to continue with its murderous cycle of violence.
My nom de plume must however remain a little secret.

I hold out my hand to you.

phil

Thank you too soreofhing ,that is the first time you have written like a gentleman and I feel like I have achieved a lot -you sound like a different person and one whose views I would always be willing to debate -my views are far from extreme,which you will have noticed if you have read my posts,but I am a supporter of Israel where I have family trying so hard to live in a proper manner.without hatred and with a desire to see a solution fair to all -that does not mean I would never criticise the state or some of its extreme people -I would and I have and I will -some laugh and say I am too soft ,I am not I am practical and I know one cannot persuade others by invective and insults -I try reason .
-I believe if you have a question to ask or a view to proffer here you will always get a respectful answer and you may well persuade some of us (not all)-but only if it is not accompanied by extreme comments -we are talking of how peace may eventually be found between people who do not agree with one another - you have offered your hand and I accept that with good spirit and the hope that you will correspond with us in this better way
.I well understand that people have great sympathy for the Palestinians ,so do I ,but the way they are expressing themselves is what I cannot agree with -personally I want to see a two state solution and I would like to see Israel extending its arms to them and make the deserts bloom with the technology that they possess,that will give their children the future that I hope they will see

Soreofhing

OK Phil, now we have said "Make up, make up, never do it again..."

Upon reflection I believe you are not that extreme. The person who is extreme, without a shadow of a doubt is the one who writes these flaming, one sided articles, and she has a clear habit of deciding that certain people and organizations are "anti Israel" and thus deserving of a leathering. In her simplistic view of the world, everyone is either "for Israel (and by extention Jews)" or "against Israel (and by extention Jews)".

It is her public lambasting of all and any critics of Israel (and by extention Jews) which really makes me see red.

Official Israeli actions are probably not as good she paints, nor perhaps as bad as I sometimes paint; but I feel my views are needed to balance the scales a little although she will always have the advantage of being able to write here at length and censure at will.

Your style has provoked a positive response from me (I always have been a gentleman Phil), I now wonder if M will perhaps, in the early hours when she ponders her blog, think that perhaps, just perhaps, more balanced, reasonable, less extreme articles might just tend to convince those who are not in her camp, instead of preaching to the converted.

phil

Soreofhing-Melanie is still a heroine to me ,she defends no doubt at great risk a tiny nation and the Jewish people from ceaseless attack -I do not always agree with her forthright style but I do with her reasons for it. We here are a small minority and Israel is a tiny nation,both of us with many foes-we naturally have feelings of insecurity and because of our history can be very defensive -it is necessary to understand that before you can understand our reactions when attacked -I know from my own upbringing and our culture how we wish to live within our nation here-with kindness, tolerence, charity and loyalty ,but we need help and that understanding to acheive those goals -so I hope I have given you a little more understanding of what we are about-I have cartainly spent some ink and time trying -I really cant believe that a bloke who prefers to play golf can spend so much time blogging :)

Ben-Tsiyon

Phil, why this this constant urge to "persuade" and "reason" with people whose prejudices are part of their genetic makeup ! You're banging your head against the proverbial brick wall.
After lauding his Jewish best friend and friend's kind mother, Soreofhing writes: "My days in business have given me other insights however. Nuff said.", implying, it seems, that he has had unpleasant business experiences with persons who happened to be Jewish and that their being Jewish was the cause. And that's not prejudice ??
At the grammar school I attended many years ago, there was one particular non-Jewish fellow pupil, of high intelligence, who constantly pointed the finger at the Jews, accusing us of every known kind of dishonest practice. Years later, he was convicted of dishonesty in the practise of his profession of the very kind he attributed to Jews, and was thrown out of his profession.

A Chaffey

Ben-Tsiyon

You complain above about prejudice. In so doing you refer to "people (from the context, non-Jews) whose prejudices are part of their genetic make-up".

I find it difficult to conceive of a more textbook example of a racial slur, in this case against non-Jews.

Could I ask you please to retract the statement and apologise.

Since your remark appears to have been made in the first instance in relation to Soreofhing, a donation of not less than £50 to a charity of his/her choosing would also seem appropriate.

andi pandi

i emailed Hari a few months ago . i said that i wished very much that he would go on radio 4's moral maize with you... as present group of people let you get away with talking so much crap... so very pleased that you two are now crossing swords.

phil

BEN TSIYON -it seems I am known to some as that "nice phil-"and I keep trying to tell people I am not so nice as they think but I am pragmatic-I don't treat that harridan patricia nicely do I? because she is lost-and the "joker"• known as F Pulley has had the sharp end of my tongue,well deserved too,-some times it seems like a waste of time like when I addressed Ahad and Ravi and never even got the courtesy of an acknowledgement but both Mike and Soreofhing do reply to me and I believe I have found at least some common ground with them-Mike is stubborn beyond belief and in the habit of quoting from any scource he can find that supports his view whether right or wrong-fisk mostly what a joke !but soreofhing needs to know more about us and just maybe he will see a difference

If we only quarrel with them what is the point to us posting here ,for ourselves ,we are just preaching to the converted-I know the history but they do not and I am trying to point them in a different direction than the likes of fisk and pappe and in some other posters cases ,neo nazi sites .,They at least raise questions and we should try to answer them ,I much prefer that to seeing posts from the likes of that depraved "enquirer"
-we are all passionate about our subject but we express it in different ways ,you have much to offer and I hope I do too,but what I have found is that reason and politeness gets me much further shalom

Soreofhing--Between a wall and a hard place

Oh dear! My new understanding with Phil has caused Ben-Tsiyon to get angry with him.
I didn't foresee that reaction and it really makes me feel damned if I do and damned if I don't.

But I have had worse things done to me in business Benny.....

What a good idea A.Chaffey has for Benny to make a charitable donation as atonement for his racial slur against me.
I select:
Interpal, Helping Palestinians in Need.

Kindly inform me when you have made the corresponding bank deposit.

Stanislav Koblinski

Johann Hari continues to insist that he's being silenced, by mouthing off again!

His latest contribution to the debate which he says is being silenced by Melanie and the World Zionist Conspiracy is to (wait for it...) call for the silencing of Melanie.

You couldn't make this up. Actually you can, and Hari does.

Beyond the boundaries of civilised disagreement

Bottom line:

Melanie Phillips is not a joke. She is part of an attempt to prevent people from honestly discussing a string of major human rights abuses by throwing outrageously ugly lies at them. It is time to declare this is beyond the boundaries of civilised disagreement, and it has to stop.

phil

Soreofhing--Between a wall and a hard place
May 15th, 2008 5:28pm----(lol) :)

but please leave the business stuff out there are villains of all creeds in business

A Chaffey

Stanislav, your comments add nothing to the debate, but cannot go unchallenged. They are wrong in almost every particular. Most are just plain false. Let's look.

Does Hari insist that he is being silenced? No, he doesn't and clearly he isn't. He thinks some people are however, because they are anxious for the reaction they will receive, if they write about Israel. This anxiety appears well founded -see some of the emails he himself has been getting -
http://blogs.independent.co.uk/openhouse/2008/05/caution-a-sampl.html#more. See also Melanie above. She links him to the Protocols and calls him a bigot. Not nice and not perhaps something that it is altogether unreasonable to complain about. Or perhaps you don't agree.

Was Hari "mouthing off"? No. The tone of his article is mild, certainly in comparison with almost anything Melanie writes.

Does he make any mention or appear to believe in a World Zionist Conspiracy? No.

Does he call for the "silencing of Melanie". No he doesn't. You really can't interpret, "It is time to declare this is beyond the boundaries of civilised disagreement, and it has to stop", along those lines.

So what's left? Nothing really. Except your anger of course.

Ben-Tsiyon

Chaffey, I don't "complain" about prejudice. That would be a waste of time. I just point it out where it exists. My remarks about "people whose prejudices are part of their genetic makeup" were directed at certain individuals who Phil persists in trying to "persuade" and "reason" with, not at all non-Jews. I'm afraid that Soreofhing qualifies as one of those individuals by virtue of what was implied in his remarks about his "days in business.....Nuff said.".
So,no apology and, definitely, no donation.

Elle in America

Thank you for your fascinating, eye-opening article and its well-researched links. I found my own fears eloquently echoed from across the pond. Here in the USA, although the more educated make it ever so subtle, it has become politically correct to be as unwaveringly anti-Semitic as the smarmiest KKK grand-master of the 1950's--only now it's imminently "cool" among the young via emotionalized references to the Palestinian victims of political violence intent upon and very adept at ignoring the very existence of Israeli victims of the same violence.