The war against the Jews (21)

Roslyn Pine

On tonight's BBC news Bowen opined that for Israel to achieve peace there must be a Palestinian state, and the issue of the refugees must be resolved,the two being unconnected. He obviously thinks that they should be allowed to return to Israel proper---for whom then is the future state of Palestine intended?
How has it happened that we are where we are,and that such a distortion of history now masquerades as the truth?
The answer is that the Arabs realised 60 years ago that they would never beat Israel militarily,and so adopted the strategy of relentless propaganda which has re-written history to their advantage, whilst the Jews are only just waking up the de-legitimisation of their right to statehood that this strategy has achieved.
As the historian,Benny Morris recently observed in his new book--- it was always a jihad and there has never been room for "the other" in the Islamic mindset with regard to territory in the Middle east.

Dave M

Few people are aware the modern Palestinians are not, in fact, the indigenous people of these disputed territories. According to the academic Michael Grant who put together an informative, pragmatic History Of Israel, the earliest people we know of who inhabited Israel and Judea were the Cannanites and these were definitely not connected along ethnic lines with modern Palestinians. In fact, these Cannanites were a polytheistic, semitic people who mingled with the Hebrews and sometimes adopted monotheistic beliefs. However, the modern Palestininians are made up of the various peoples who settled in these lands hundreds of years later on when the Roman Empire punished Jerusalem and displaced Jewish inhabitants. It's believed the modern Palestinians arrived from Turkey, Italy, Iraq, Syria and Iran. Some may even have been Romans. The fact these people did settle cannot be ignored by the International Community and, yes, they do have rights but the media has never really addressed the issue of historical ethnic cleansing of Jews by Babylon, Assyria and the Roman Empire. And later the impact of other Empires which led to Jews not having a real homeland.

George of Currumbin

Of course the firing of rockets randomly at Israeli civilians by Hammas, will never be seen as acts of terrorism by the elites at the BBC.
Yet i wonder how they would describe the random targeting of the BRITISH civilians in east end of London by the German V2s during WW2.
Pefidity?
Of course it was also the perfidious British Elites who granted Werner Von Braun asylum in the UK before his transfer to the USA.

Marcus from the USA

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English and France to the French".
- Mahatma Gandhi

Luton Fever

Mad Mel seems to have overlooked the massive amounts of terrorism committed by the Jews against the British authorities.

Infact in 1944 Jewish terrorists murdered British mediator Lord Moyne in Cairo, which led P.M. Churchill to refer to Jewish Zionist groups as "a new set of gangsters worthy of Nazi Germany" in Parliament.

Just some food for thought mel.

David

BBC - Bowen's Biased Commentary

Anthony Taylor

I was involved as a young officer at the 1948 hand over in Palestine. Arab lands were in a mess. Jewish lands had been improved out of all recognition - and then the Arabs wanted them! It's no good shouting at the TV but it lets off a bit of steam!

Roy

In my readings of British history generally, the word perfidy arises quite often. Especially when the author has every wish to show British statesmanship in its true light. Churchill's name springs up frequently, but his later successors did no better. After a few short years territories that were a garden of Eden are riddled with corruption, incompetence, indolence, nepotism, dictatorships, bankrupt and in chaos. Israel has always shown careful thinking in its running of the small nation state. What a pity the neighbouring countries couldn't learn from this, with 'on the spot' technologies in Israel's agriculture and its many industries. How infamous of the west to misconstrue the true picture. Like they appeased Hitler, they appeased the communistic attack on western principals, they appease the spread of their own internal crime rate, and drug taking, now they appease the spread of Islamism. They refuse to even acknowledge mild forms of such inroads into their societies. One would have thought the BBC; the past upholder of everything British, would be at the forefront of any defence of the truth. Instead we have to admit to it being a disgrace to us receiving any genuine unadulterated news.

Max

What I found particularly dirty about this "documentary", and I have emailed the BBC about it, was the use made of and the power given to Hazem Nusseibeh, whose interview slots were edited to follow on immediately from those of Shimon Peres. Sequencing the slots in this way gave Nusseibeh, in his persona as former Jordanian Minister, the final word on the topics addressed by Peres, and he contradicted him at every turn. What the programme didn't say was that Nusseibeh, in the War of Independence, had taken instructions from Hussein Khalidi, who worked for the longtime anti-semite Hajj Amin el-Husseini, Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, founder of the SS al Handzar brigade and indicted war criminal. A little research, and you'll find that he was told by Khalidi to fabricate and publicise reports of a massacre at Deir Yassin. And that he has even previously admitted it - to the BBC! So the editors of this Jeremy Bowen programme enabled a perpetrator of one of the world's great historical lies, the "Deir Yassin Massacre", staple currency of neo Nazi and specifically pro Arab websites, to have the last word against that of the Israeli president. A new low for the BBC, I thought.

patricia

1) You quote Wassserstein, an author whose religion might have influenced his objectivity.

2)If Palestine did not exist, what was the Palestine Campaign in the First World War?

3) In any case, from what you say, if there was no Palestine, all Israel did was steal Syrian and Jordanian land instead. Does that make it better?

4)"Jews alone had a historic claim to Palestine, because they alone were the people for whom it had been their historic homeland and nation state".
But didn't it say in the Old Testament that God told the Jews to kill everybody there and take the land for themselves?

Is this how anybody should go about creating a historic homeland?

And if that IS the right way to do it, what possible argument could you have against Hamas?! Who in any case are asking for their land back?!

Hello, Melanie - knock knock, are you out there?

Anita M

I am Danish and have lived in this country for very happy 17 years. However, one of the first thing I did notice about the press and TV was the ingrained semitic and dislike of jews and Israel. Take a look at other countries news organisations ie Denmark, Norway, Sweden and USA you will find a completely different tone both implicitly and explicitly. After all these years living here I must conclude that the Brits will never change. More's the pity.

Mike (the original)

Unfortunately, the following ended up on the wrong thread. (my error)

As Frank Sinatra once said 'There's nothing quite like singing in front of LIVE people'!

Visit:http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/1948-remembered-by-the-people-who-were-there-822742.html

Here you will find LIVE people who remember 1948.....were there...saw it, felt it, and know the truth. Not unlike some journalists I know who sit on their big, fat a...s and pontificate from the safety of their offices!

There are other journalists, of course, who write and broadcast from the 'front-line' as it were, and also 'feel it' and 'see it'.......and then have to suffer unabated criticism and invective from those who seek 'to intimidate and silence'

'There is nobody these self-appointed spokesmen for Israel will not attack as anti-Jewish: liberal Jews, rabbis, even Holocaust survivors'

Nachman

Patricia a load of specious arguments and coswallop. There never was an Arab/muslim State of Palestine there was and is a legal and moral Jewish claim to Israel period the rest is commentary. Go and learn some history before parroting Arab propaganda without foundation in fact and you might get a reasoned response. Duh!

peter watkins

MAX

I had not heard of the Deir Yassin massacre. But I had a little look and found a whole lot more. Here are some;

The King David Massacre
The Massacre at Baldat al-Shaikh
YEHIDA MASSACRE
KHISAS MASSACRE
QAZAZA MASSACRE
The Semiramis Hotel Massacre
The Massacre at Dair Yasin
NASER AL-DIN MASSACRE
THE TANTURA MASSACRE
BEIT DARAS MASSACRE
THE DAHMASH MOSQUE MASSACRE
DAWAYMA MASSACRE
HOULA MASSACRE
SHARAFAT MASSACRE
Salha Massacre
The Massacre at Qibya
KAFR QASEM MASSACRE
Khan Yunis Massacre
The Massacre in Gaza City
AL-SAMMOU' MASSACRE
Aitharoun Massacre
Kawnin Massacre
Hanin Massacre
Bint Jbeil Massacre
Abbasieh Massacre
Adloun Massacre
Saida Massacre
Fakhani Massacre
Beirut Massacre

Are they all Neo Nazi
fabrications and lies too?

I also seem to recall some 2000 Lebanese civilians being killed in Lebanon by the IDF in 2006.

Or am I imagining it?

Charles

George of Currumbin,

"... random targeting of the BRITISH civilians in east end of London by the German V2s during WW2."

Some people on these threads are pretty quick to start sniping at the British. They shouldn't be. My uncle, who is still with us, was a casualty doctor at the Royal London when the V2s were landing. They used to take breaks on the hospital roof and see the V2s fall around them, then go downstairs to do what they could. This country was at the precipice edge in those days and it p*sses me off when people start knocking it. Desist, Melanie et al.

Dee Ranged

Hello, Patricia - knock knock, are you STILL out there?

Yawn!

patricia

NACHMAN -

A moral claim to a land? That is a new one.

Alexander conquered India. Does Greece now have a moral claim to annex Pakistan?!

Genghis Khan conquered the same bit sometime after. So should Mongolia march into Mumbai?

Also, what history do I want to learn?

The Old Testament, and the Moses Massacre Machine?

Maybe YOU should read Balfour - the bit where it says "with the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine"... IE, not taking the whole lot.

A land which you say does not exist.

So the British Government sold you land that you say did not exist.

Maybe you should have checked the title deeds, because in your eyes, they refer to non existent lands.

Stanislav Koblinski

"I also seem to recall some 2000 Lebanese civilians being killed in Lebanon by the IDF in 2006.

Or am I imagining it?"

Yes, you are imagining it.

A little research will reveal that the actual killing was done by Lebanese Christian militia. But don't let the facts get in the way of your prejudices.

Charles

Don't know what has happened to an earlier post? Now in the ether it would seem. Anyway, here (again) is a link that all with an interest in the Balfour Declaration should look at:

http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2007/11/great-thanksgiving-meeting-december-2.html

This contains brief edited transcripts of what was said at the 'Great Thanksgiving Meeting' held at the Royal Opera House on 2nd December 1917; when Zionist Jewish, Arab and Armenian leaders confirmed a shared commitment to their respective homelands.

There is a link in the early part of the text to a copy of the whole publication from which the extracts were taken, for those who take their studies super seriously (well maybe there's somebody out there!)

J. Isaacs

Luton Fever - Is this a disease you have caught by being a redundant Vauxhall car worker with too much time on your hands? Dr. J prescibes swift timed usage of the remote control channel switch and a weekly dose of the vastly more informative, entertaining and educational "Alan Sugar, The Apprentice - You're Fired"!

Eddie

This comments column seems to have been invaded by a group of revisionist Martians.
Simon Round, the Jewish Chronicle Editor's choice as television reviewer considers the Bowen programme to be a fair picture of the situation. I am even surprised that the Jewish Chronicle has not yet given more space to the Martians in the interest of “freedom of Speech”. However, I don’t think I will have to wait very long judging by the monstrous distortions that I have just read in this comments column. .
Sadly, I have to pay a license fee to support BBC’s fantasies about Israel, but at least I can choose the newspapers that I read.

Kiwi

Patricia
"Maybe YOU should read Balfour - the bit where it says 'with the creation of a Jewish State in Palestine'... IE, not taking the whole lot."
Er, by the whole lot, do you mean the bit that also includes modern day Jordan?

Ron

So have the Palestinians a national identity?
The never managed to create the minimal institutions needed to govern a nation. The Jews did it and so did others and under hard conditions but the Palestinians given the chance never did. Yes they blame everyone but themselves but when it comes down to it they can't agree on anything and they don't seem to get on all that well. How does that reconcile with a national identity?

Ravi

When I read Antisemites like Patricia my heart soars that are people like her actually willing to shout about their Antisemitism. Why Antisemitism? NOT because she criticises Israel but that she has told so many lies in her post that to answer her will never change her opinion. Myth trumps fact when you have hatred in your heart. I can only hope that hatred takes its toll.

GaryL

"I had not heard of the Deir Yassin massacre. But I had a little look and found a whole lot more. Here are some;"

Which is more or less and admission of total ignorance about the issues dredged up about the history of the conflict, and about the history itself. The rest of Mr peter watkins' list is an equally ignorant grab-bag of cut-n-paste junk.

Nicholas

Roy, that is Left Wing Socialism. It has blighted this country for years masquerading in various guises, the latest being New Labour. One of its many ongoing, destructive tenets is to rob the British of their true history and legacy. They are invariably anti-Israel and pro-Islam. Politics or fashion? Dunno, but a lot of trendy celebs spout the lefty garbage about Israel.

GaryL

in answer to patricia's rubbish -

"1) You quote Wassserstein, an author whose religion might have influenced his objectivity."

It's the 21st century. Isn't it time yet for non-Jews to drop their mediaeval cultural right to determine what Jews should do.

"2)If Palestine did not exist, what was the Palestine Campaign in the First World War?"

The Arabs in southern Syria insisted that "Palestine" was a western term with no validity. Can anyone find any Arab use of the word Palestine to refer to the people or the land before 1965?

"3) In any case, from what you say, if there was no Palestine, all Israel did was steal Syrian and Jordanian land instead. Does that make it better?"

Jews regained sovereignty of the land which has always been theirs.

4)"Jews alone had a historic claim to Palestine, because they alone were the people for whom it had been their historic homeland and nation state".
But didn't it say in the Old Testament that God told the Jews to kill everybody there and take the land for themselves? "

Are you offering a suggestion about how to ensure that Israel lives in peace?

"Is this how anybody should go about creating a historic homeland?"

It's how the British gained their non-historical homeland called America.

"And if that IS the right way to do it, what possible argument could you have against Hamas?! Who in any case are asking for their land back?!"

They haven't asked. They've threatened genocide of all the Jews.

"Hello, Melanie - knock knock, are you out there?"

Why are you knocking on the door from inside. Is this another demoinstration of your upside-down beliefs?

Mike (the original)

George of Currumbin: Simply to say that if it hadn't been for the genius of that superb engineering scientist, Wernher voi Braun, it is unlikely the United States would have found their way to the moon as early as June, 1969. To-day he is known as the father of the US Space Programme; he's also a US citizen.

phil

MARCUS FROM THE USA the USA belongs to Britain .n,est pas .oh sorry to the Indians .so clear it up for me !

Roslyn Pine

Dave M.
Actually,the modern day "Palestinians" are much more recent than that.They immigrated in the main from Syria and Egypt(their family names often reveal their origin) when the first and second large influx of the Jews, mainly from Eastern Europe, at the end of the 19th.C and the early 20th.C.created an infrastructure and with it,employment,largely in agriculture.
The barren nature of the land (swamps in the North, desert in the South) until then is well documented, as is the fact that there were very few people living there at all,by writers like Mark Twain and other explorers who visited the region.
Interesting to note that although Jerusalem was a neglected backwater,there has been a continuous Jewish presence in the Old City since Temple times, except for the period between 1948 and 1967,when they were evicted by the Jordanians and all 58 synagogues there destroyed.
Hebron,Safed and other historic places also had an almost unbroken record of Jewish life since biblical times.All the archeological evidence is there to prove it.

Soreofhing

Peter Watkins is spot on with his damning list of massacres carried out by the Israelis against anyone who stands up to them (and others who don't stand up to them, but simply are there).

Stanislav Koblinski is right that the 1982 Sabra & Shatila massacre was carried out by Lebanese Christian militiamen...........however Israel is guilty of aiding and abetting

The Israelis surrounded the Palestinian camps and shelled the inhabitants then sent in the Militiamen to their dirty work at night whilst the Israeli army helpfully kept up a continuous barrage of flares for the militiamen to carry out the slaughter.

The Israeli army turned back Palestinian civilians who attempted to escape thus sending them to their deaths.

Ex Prime Minister Ariel Sharon was in charge of the Israeli army during the massacre and has thus gone down in history as "The Butcher of Beirut".

Max

Peter Watkins - you don't respond to the point of my post - that the BBC uses someone who has been revealed, it appears by the BBC itself, as a self-confessed liar about an alleged massacre. They've used him to comment on the remarks of the head of a friendly state regarding events, such as this alleged massacre, the president being given no opportunity to respond.
And the point of applying the word "massacre" to a list of place names, each of which has known tragedy, but for a variety of reasons? It's a long list, so I'll just take two from either end. Your first presumably refers to the blowing up of one wing of the King David Hotel which, at the time, housed administrative functions of the mandatory authorities, at a time when these authorities were leaning heavily to the Arab side and violence was widespread. Loss of life would have been avoided had the warning been headed.
Baldat al-Shaikh? Direct revenge on the perpetrators of a massacre, the day before. 40 Jewish workers at the Haifa Petroleum refinery had been massacred by their Arab co-workers.
Fakhani? This was the attack on the PLO HQ in Lebanon during Operation Peace for Galilee. It was defended from civilian areas. The PLO used its artillery and rockets there not only against the Israeli forces but to shell Christian areas of Beirut from which they were not at the time under attack.
"Beirut Massacre" appears to be applied to the deaths of Rafik Hariri, the former Lebanese PM, and 20 civilians in 2005. Blame has yet to be apportioned, so lay it on the state of Israel, why don't you?
The "2000 Lebanese civilians" figure is generally regarded as an inflated total and refuted, as far as the "civilian" description goes, since the majority were from the same Hizbullah that's currently ranged against the Lebanese government.
I, too, doubt whether the neo-Nazis invent everything that they reproduce on their sites. But that doesn't mean any of it is factual.
Your list is long, but it's far from the whole picture. Have another "little look", and you'll see that, over most of the twentieth century, the Arabs have massacred Jews from Constantine in the west to Baghdad in the east, with hardly a town left unaffected. It's a cultural tradition reflected in the Hamas Charter and in the education of their children to this day.
Patricia - no one says Palestine didn't exist. It's "Palestinians", a term that Arafat re-assigned to mean the Arabs who'd settled on the land of post-1922 mandatory Palestine. If you read what Melanie wrote, you'll see that their political leadership prior to the 1970s regarded them as Syrians or Jordanians.

Nigel

I avoid all Biased Broadcasting Corporation reports and programmes about the Middle East. I refuse to watch or listen because they get me so angry. To rub salt into the wound we are all funding this miserable lot.

Mike (the original)

'Just who is defining what it means to be pro-Israel in the United States (or elsewhere) these days?

Some purported keepers of that flame claim that supporting Israel means reflexively supporting every Israeli action and implacably opposing every Israeli foe -- adopting the talking points of neoconservatives and the most right-wing elements of the American Jewish and Christian Zionist communities. Criticize or question Israeli behavior and you're labeled "anti-Israel," or worse. But unquestioning encouragement for short-sighted Israeli policies such as expanding Jewish settlements in the West Bank isn't real friendship. Israel needs real friends, not enablers. And forging a healthy friendship with Israel requires bursting some myths about what it means to be pro-Israel.

Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert has argued, Israel's survival depends on offering the Palestinians a more hopeful future built on political sovereignty and economic development. As long as Palestinians despair of a decent and dignified life, Israel will be at war. And as long as the only channel for the Palestinians' ingenuity is building better rockets, not even the Great Wall of China will protect Israel's cities from their wrath. Helping the Palestinians achieve a viable, prosperous state is one of the most pro-Israel things an American politician can do.

You don't need an advanced degree in international relations to recognize that pursuing peace only with people you like is pointless. Most Israelis know this; a recent poll in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz found that two-thirds of Israelis favour cease-fire negotiations between their government and Hamas, the Palestinian Islamist movement that controls the Gaza Strip, exactly because Hamas is such a bitter foe. But in Washington, we self-righteously refuse to engage -- even indirectly -- with Hamas, Iran or Syria.

Hamas won the most recent Palestinian national elections in a landslide. Do we seriously think that it can be erased from the political landscape simply by assassinations and sanctions? Precisely because Hamas and Iran represent the most worrisome strategic challenges to Israel, responsible friends of Israel who'd like to see it live in security for its next 60 years should be engaging with them to search for alternatives to war.

When the United States abandons the role of effective broker and acts only as Israel's amen choir, as it has throughout Bush's tenure, the United States dims Israel's prospects of winning security through diplomacy. The best gift that Israel's friends here could give this gallant, embattled democracy on its milestone birthday would be returning the United States to its leading role in active diplomacy to end the conflicts in the Middle East -- and help a secure, thriving Israel find a permanent, accepted home among the community of nations.

(From the pen of Jeremy Ben-Ami) Amen!

Ravi

I also seem to recall some 2000 Lebanese civilians being killed in Lebanon by the IDF in 2006 Or am I imagining it? Yes! You ARE imagining it. IDF did NOT kill 2000 Lebanese civilians.

Ben-Tsiyon

Luton Fever's contribution to these comments reminds me of the ant-Semitic climate that existed in Luton when I lived there many years ago. Ah, what nostalgia for those far-off Luton schooldays with their constant demonstrations of English fair play ! In those days, the Jews were the only non-English ethnic group there to pick upon. Today there is a variety of such groups, including black people and Asians, but I'd wager that the Jews are still the favourites when it comes to prejudice !

Ellien

Max, that's a very solid response to Peter Watkins, who chooses to use "massacre" to describe acts of war, as if to claim that they were deliberate and unprovoked. He makes no mention of the numerous massacres perpetrated by so-called suicide bombers upon innocent civilians in Israel (which includes Arabs and many foreigners).
What is needed are fairer and more balanced overviews of the complexities that are involved, and I find some of the posters manage to do this, being helpfully informative. Thanks to them, but no thanks to the likes of Patricia who can only spout venom. "Her" comments add nothing to form a balanced picture.

Ann

Ghandi was completely ignorant about the history of the Jews and their homeland, and his pronouncements were a lot of pretentious nonsense.

Peter Watkins is not very different: he spouts regurgitated lies. Just as one fr'instance, there was no such thing as a 'King David massacre'. There was a military attack on the British military intelligence HQ, a perfectly legitimate target. It just so happens that it was located in the commandeered KD: so what?

Ann

"As long as Palestinians despair of a decent and dignified life, Israel will be at war" - first of all, there are no 'Palestinians', and repeating this big lie doesn't make it the truth. Secondly, there was constant war when Judea and Samaria were under Jordanian rule and Gaza under Egyptian rule. The mindset that believes that the root of the problem is Jews living in J&S, and that everything will be peachy once J&S become Judenrein, is hardly new: it's the one pushed by Al Beeb and its deplorable Al Bowen, from a position of visceral hatred for the Jews. There are plenty of ignorants around who buy this nonsense by the bucketful.

Ann

"The Israelis surrounded the Palestinian camps and shelled the inhabitants then sent in the Militiamen to their dirty work" - this is quite simply a lie.

Roslyn, I have even seen Arabs claiming to be direct descendants of the Philistines, who were not even a Semitic people but a tribe related to the Cretans. This is another strand in the big lie of the 'Palestinian nation, the indigenous people who are being cruelly oppressed in their own homeland by the foreign colonisers, the Jews who are a European imperialistic outpost'. This lie is constantly spread in the West by the Arabs and their useful fools - but even the Arabs themselves admit elsewhere that this is a complete fabrication. Mel has quoted several such admissions. Not that it makes any difference to those motivated by pure Jew-hatred.

Adam B.

Peter watkins not every battle constitutes a "massacre." You've simply tried to find as many "titles" as you can, without investigating them individually. What is your source? A propaganda website? Incidentally, how many Iraqi civilians have been killed (unintentionally) by British forces? I bet you don't have a figure for that one. Why not?

ahad ha'amoratzim

Soreofthing charges that "The Israelis surrounded the Palestinian camps and shelled the inhabitants then sent in the Militiamen to their dirty work at night"

This was proven in a US court to be a blatant lie. In fact Sharon, who was in charge of the IDF forces, urged the Lebanese militia leaders NOT to attack the Palestinian camps, and was mislead by their assurances that they would not. Soreofthing is repeating a proven lie, and so is anyone else who repeats this nonsense.

As to the charge that Israel wanted this to happen, it was an ISRAELI military court that disciplined Sharon for being taken in by the assurances of the Lebanese clan leaders.

Once again, we find that those who hate the idea of a Jewish state consider no lie too monstrous to use against it.

Stanislav Koblinski

Stanislav Koblinski is right that the 1982 Sabra & Shatila massacre was carried out by Lebanese Christian militiamen...........however Israel is guilty of aiding and abetting

The original accusation, nay blood-libel, was that "some 2000 Lebanese civilians being killed in Lebanon by the IDF in 2006".

Thank you for admitting that the accusation is false. Now please explain why the Lebanese Christian militia has not been demonised to the extent that the IDF is.

As for the rest please also explain why Kofi Anan and the UN forces in Rwanda are not accused of "aiding and abetting" in the massacres of far more people there.

While you're at it I'd also like to know why the UN and its Dutch troops in Sbreniça allowed a massacre to take place in what the UN had publicly declared a "safe haven", and why Kofi Anan therefore is not known as "the Butcher of Belgrade".

Could it be that in Rwanda and Sbreniça there was no Jew that could be blamed for the mass murders that took place?

Hypocrisy is your middle name.

ahad ha'amoratzim

"You don't need an advanced degree in international relations to recognize that pursuing peace only with people you like is pointless."

Nor do you need an advanced degree in international relations to recognize that it is both pointless and suicidal to make unilateral concessions in hopes of peace with people you may or may not like but who hate you, are sworn your extermination, make every apparent effort to carry out that goal, and have made not the slightest effort toward pursuing peace with you.

Leslie

I feel very proud of our Prime Minister, here in Canada, after reading this
http://www.nationalpost.com/todays_paper/story.html?id=501605

Thinkster

@Roy (May 9th, 2008 10:21am) Spot on! You have used a few words to summarise the whole issue. The keyword/tag is 'envy'. We should collect some of the most lucid postings on this forum and print a book.

field

Notice something about that quote:

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English and France to the French".
- Mahatma Gandhi

Surely in logic it should be "Palestine belongs to the Palestinians".

And whenever Gandhi came up with that, "Palestinian" meant Jewish as well as Arab Palestinian.

Why a Jew born and bred in Palestine had less of a right to a state in Palestine than Yasser Arafat born and bred in Cairo, I don't know.

Marcus from the USA

I guess according to Ann's wacky logic Al-Qaeda flying a plane into the Pentagon was not a terrorist attack, since the Pentagon is the H.Q. of the US military, a "legitamate" target.

Also all those insurgents blowing up Americans with the IED's. Not terrorist attacks, but justifiable military actions according to Ann.

Ann is a terrorist supporter.

Luton Fever

Oh how dare I refer the innumerable number of terrorists attacks committed by Jews in Palestine.

The fact hurts because its true.

And actually the Jewish war against the Arabs didnt start in 1948; it started thousands of years ago when Moses ordered his Jewish army to massacre the Midianite males and rape the virgin girls (Midianites are Northern Arabs).

The Arabs nations must stand up to the Jewish menace.

CS Barnett

What must be said is when any socalled news outlet, such as the BBC,Reuters,The Guardian, and The Independent,Channel 4 in France, and ,I am sorry to say, now, The Telegraph, perpetually contrive lies, refuse to check sources and accuracy, seem too often to be pursuing not just an agenda, but out and out propaganda in regards to Israel
Zionism, the Jewish People, it
strips the credibility concerning any other topic's coverage.In the US it has signaled, time and again, the beginning of the end. The newspapers in the US are in serious subscription decline, very serious.The demise of the New York Times is a very good case study in example.The BBC
had lost its credibility quite awhile ago, especially, after the US' retaliation against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and permitting itself to be used to
promote absolute lies by NGO's in Iraq.The only aspect of the BBC that has any merit let is its radio station, 3, I believe, that broadcasts Classical Music content.
The problem is it reflects on the UK, and imposes another historical burden that will not disappear.Since it is structured as it is, the British People can
bring pressure as it has in the past until it gets it right.
With the once glorious and enviable educational system in such shambles, the public critique is imperative to apply now, while many still maintain the skills and faculties of proper and knowledgeable criticism.
The Spectator's comments' sections demonstrate this is the case.
Thank goodness for Melanie and the few others, who understand standards and work to
produce substantive reports and commentaries.

Ravi

"Palestine belongs to the Arabs in the same sense that England belongs to the English and France to the French".
- Mahatma Gandhi So Ghandi is a policy writer for the BNP? Are you forgetting what Melanie has written and shown by historical documents? Palestine was given as The Jewish National home while preserving the civil and religious rights of Arabs who lived there, Jews were given full political control since the Mandate also created Arab countries like Jordan, Syria and The Lebanon where Jews had NO rights. Hence they were given those rights in Palestine.

phil

3 war21--
Ravi why do you respond to that crazy woman ,she obviously enjoys upsetting many of us -I actually find her amusing -you know a bit like Frank from some mothers do av em -crazy--she adds nothing to the debate and most people know that -just ignore her -there are many people who do not agree with all that is said here and it would be better to try to persuade them with facts and truth and not waste ones energy on the likes of her

phil

4 war 21-
Mike glad to see your are back, but with no new material -try reading Abba Eban -he writes a lot better than mr fisk

James

"The first is that, like so much journalism about Israel, this programme failed to acknowledge the true perfidy of the British in reneging..." Imagine the reaction if the Israeli government did something bad (like spy on its chief ally the US) and someone spoke of the "perfidy of the Jews". Melanie is merely turning antisemitism on its head and smearing an entire gentile people for something done by a few of its members. I can assure her that my British ancestors had no part in the "reneging", if such it was. And does she not regard herself as British? If she does, is she herself perfidious? If she doesn't, why doesn't she renounce her British nationality and reject the terrorism-appeasing, Jew-harming identity that does with it?

J. Isaacs

Luton Fever - Dr. J. notes you have not been following Doctor's orders by taking your weekly dose of "Alan Sugar, The Apprentice - You're Fired." Dr. is concerned that your fever is worstening into severe apoplexy and delusional Biblical misinterpretation syndrome. Please also follow the Lord's instructions to Moses, our teacher; keep taking the tablets (and don't hit the burning bush).

Adam B.

Marcus, Ann never said "justifiable". That's called putting words in someone's mouth, and shows you've lost the argument. Why don't you read postings properly? You obviously see no difference between targeting a military target and a civilian one.

Adam B.

Mahatma Gandhi also said that the Jews should not resist the Nazis. He may have been a great leader for India, but he said some pretty stupid things as well.

Ben-Tsiyon

At least Luton Fever doesn't attempt to disguise his pathological hatred of Jews in the costume of an "only anti-Zionist". It occurs to me that, back in the 1940s, I may well have been at school in Luton with him or, more likely, his father or grandfather. In those days the constant cry of the Jew-haters there was: "Go back to Palestine...back to Jerusalem...back where you came from !". That many of us have now done or are doing just that doesn't please them either. Tough !

Harriet

Yes, what is going on at The Telegraph?

They've lost the plot on 'climate change' or whatever silly name it's going under at the moment.

On Barack Obama they have stopped producing politcal analysis and simpy churn out bits of romantic fiction about him. Have they dispatched a crack team of Mills & Boon writers to cover that election? He most certainly is their 'Princess Obama' as someone familiar to readers here has dubbed him.

And on the Middle East, presumably the bulk of the foreign correspondents now all have white feathers Sellotaped to the back of their passports?

Ann

Marcus, do you engage your brain before you post? Perhaps one needs to hold your hand and help you read? Do you want me to send you a Ladybird Book of Jewish History, so you understand everything? Or shall I join all the dots for you, since you can't do it for yourself?
The Jews bombed the military intelligence HQ of a foreign power that was occupying their country. I regard that as perfectly justified.
The Pentagon is not the military intelligence HQ of a foreign power occupying Arabia.
All clear now?

michael

Crickey - with MP Disciples on this blog like Ann and Marcus, I'm glad I'm not Palestinian!

One thing is for sure - its people like you who keep Israel locked away as a victim of its own making.

I look forward to the day when we look back on people like you as the reason for our problems, and not the solution.

What horrors!

Ann

"Crickey - with MP Disciples on this blog like Ann and Marcus"

I am nobody's 'disciple'. I think for myself, which cannot be said about you.

"I'm glad I'm not Palestinian!"

No such thing.

"One thing is for sure - its people like you who keep Israel locked away as a victim of its own making"

Blaming Israel for being attacked by crazed genocidal mass-murderers is the hallmark of stupid antisemites.

John Green

See Friday's OneJerusalem.org "A letter to the world."
The world has Jewish blood on our hands. Rather than try to atone for it, we attempt to eradicate the reminder --- Israel. It is written: There is none righteous, no not one

Nick Kaplan

It’s funny how left wing journalists and bloggers have such contempt for property rights when they talk about mass redistribution of wealth, but when they then talk about a group of people whose only desire is to take back some land that was never truly theirs (the Palestinians) property rights are the most sacred thing in the world to them!

Alexandrovich

michael: have you also noticed that contradiction is rife as the usual suspects clamour to force feed their extreme right wing opinions about Israel down the throats of the 'non believers'?
And in such a nasty fascist way too.
Just look at the response to this post...

jose garcia

patricia wrote
"But didn't it say in the Old Testament that God told the Jews to kill everybody there and take the land for themselves? "

no it is in the koran , or havent you read it?
because you havent read the hamas charter either,

or hizbolla's?
or the PLO?

let me enlighten you about PALESTINE with a quote from a former "freedom fighter"

"Why is it that on June 4th 1967 I was a Jordanian and overnight I became a Palestinian? We did not particularly mind Jordanian rule. The teaching of the destruction of Israel was a definite part of the curriculum, but we considered ourselves Jordanian until the Jews returned to Jerusalem. Then all of the sudden we were Palestinians - they removed the star from the Jordanian flag and all at once we had a Palestinian flag. When I finally realized the lies and myths I was taught, it is my duty as a righteous person to speak out’.
Walid Shoebat, former PLO terrorist."

go back to sleep now,
too late....

HochMagandy

Ann: "... so what?"
I think you may be infringing Ed Balls' copyright with that one ;-)))
Dr.J.: You should urging LF to chuck his TV into the nearest skip rather than encourge him to watch any more BBC UNreality TV.
KDH bombing: Did the reported 28 British, 41 Arab, 17 Jewish, and 5 unidentified deaths qualify as a massacre? It was certainly indiscriminate. Choose your dictionary. I have always considered bomb planting to be acts of cowardice and generally counter-productive no matter who is doing it. However in this case it appears to have persuaded the British otherwise.

Ann

Adam LeBor is peddling his usual lies, ignorance and illiteracy about Israel in the Sunday Times.

Ann

HochMagandy, the Jews were very short of heavy artillery and the ability to place it where necessary under the eyes of the foreign occupier, let alone ground-attack aircraft. They used what was available - I regard that as common sense. And they gave ample warning. It was the arrogance of the British CO towards the Jewish natives ('We don't take orders from Jews')that caused the casualties.

Mike

Phil: As a matter of fact the piece by Jeremy Ben-Ami was 'new' since it came in his email to me of the same day! As you know I've lots of sources, not least my dear friend Robert and his 'weekly' from Beirut published in the 'Independent'.

Another source of reliable Middle East news is 'Aljazeera' where on Friday night Sir David Frost did an excellent programme on Israel's 60th. It was fascinating to listen to President Shimon Peres responding to Sir David's questions....one of which asked him what mistakes Israel had made over the 60 years. Peres looked aside for a second or two, and then said that he thought the mistake Israel had made was not pursuing peace agressively with the Palestinians immediately following the 1979 Peace Treaty with Egypt. Presumably if Israel had chosen that moment the country would now be at peace with the Palestinians....and the latter would have had their own state.

You can find 'Frost over the World' on 'Aljazeera' each Friday night usually at 2000 BST (Sky Ch 514). Happy viewing!

My very early impressions of Israel were largely as a result of listening to Abba Eban when he was Israel's Foreign Minister many years ago. As you know very well my impressions are hardly all that favourable to-day.

Mike

jose garcia:
'Many of Shoebat's public claims have come under scrutiny of falsehood.

A Mar 30, 2008 Jersualem Post report [1] raised several significant questions about Shoebat's claims about his past as well as his current activities:

1) Shoebat claims to have carried out a terrorist bomb attack against an Israeli bank before emigrating to the US. The Jerusalem Post, after interviewing Shoebat for details about the bombing, concluded that there is no evidence of any such attack.

2) Bank Leumi in Bethlehem, the target of Shoebat's alleged attack, has no record of an attack ever occuring.

3) Shoebat claims to use an assumed name for his personal safety. The Jerusalem Post located members of the Shoebat family in Beit Sahur, where he was raised, who remember him and recognize him with the name Walid Shoebat.

4) Shoebat has claimed to be descended from the "Grand Wizir of Islam" - however no such historical figure or title is known to exist.

5) Shoebat claims to operate a non-profit foundation in his own name, registered in the State of Pennsylvania. The Jerusalem Post was unable to verify that the foundation is indeed non-profit (the State of Pennsylvania has no records of a charitable organization with this name), and noted that all donations made through his website are sent to a private company called "Top Executive Greetings", raising the question of what use is made of funds donated to this alleged foundation.

The report concludes: "If the Bank Leumi bombing claim is unfounded, it is unclear why Shoebat would have wanted to manufacture a terrorist past. True or not, however, it has plainly brought him some prominence and provided him with a means to speak in favor of Israel and be paid for doing so." It should be noted that the Jerusalem Post is a politically right-leaning Israeli newspaper which has reported positively on Shoebat many times prior to the publication of this article'

Oh dear....this will never do will it? And to think that even Melanie Phillips uses this man to further her argument.

I'm at a loss to know what to do for the best.....can't quote Walid Shoebat, nor Illan Pappe, can't read the reports of Fisk, Bowen, or Johann Hari, can't use the quotations of Ben Gurion, Golds Meir, or Dayan, and god help me if I pick up the work of Benny Morris or even open the 'Independent' newspaper'.

I'm at a complete loss. What do you think I should do Jose?

HochMagandy

Ann, you make a very fair point about the warnings given, and about the CO who was replaced very shortly afterwards. The trouble with bombs, as the statistics show, is that they are indiscriminate. There is no such thing as "a civilian" in the minds of the madmen targetting Israel and the rest of us infidels - hence my previous comments.

Ann

Yes, Mike, we know that you post a lot of ignorant anti-Israel drivel.

Ashton Chase

patricia wrote
"But didn't it say in the Old Testament that God told the Jews to kill everybody there and take the land for themselves? "

Yes he did. Here is one of the quotes:

"As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you."
- Deuteronomy 20:10-14

Like I said this is one of the many violent verses in the Torah. Check out the other Jewish holy book the Talmud for more quotes.

George

Oh Mike, do give over, you never stop banging on about your wretched time in the Lebanon, about how it's all tickety boo and misunderstood and yet this weekend the extremists are even closer to finishing the job on the government there. But people like you have a blind spot for stuff like that.

Maybe you should go back there for a visit and see how the extremists you can't wait to leap the defence of actually treat people instead of giving us your rubbishy Guardian version of Middle East history.

For those who want an unsanitised account of Lebanon's demise, go check out the book "Because They Hate" - guaranteed not to be serialised by The Grauniad!

Commondog

Mike!!!...the original!!!!

Old Glue Eyes is back...yet again.

Just thought I'd look in to see how this blog is making the Israel-haters face some truth for a change, and was so happy to see that you found your true home once again - as in just like the last time you stomped off in a campie huff when you got argued into a corner.

It's like I said mate: you just can't leave this stuff alone can you.

I see you've gone all cut and paste research these days, to arrive at such summarizing gems as:

"Presumably if Israel had chosen that moment (1979; to 'pursue peace') the country would now be at peace with the Palestinians....and the latter would have had their own state.

Yeah right. To presume is one thing - to make wild and romantic estimations and pretend you know what the hell you are talking about, is quite another.

Mike

Ann: I think I once said that every thread needs someone like you. But I think you would do far better if you were not to indulge in invective, but to 'serve your enemies with cream' if you wish to defeat them. Your 'cream' is somewhat sour....if I may say so. Either way it is of little consequence for me, because as I've said a number of times, I neither respond nor do invective.....it's unnecessary and a waste of space...as they say.

Soreofhing

I sympathise with Mike and he being satanized for reading Fisk, Bowen, Hari, Benny Morris or, God Forgive you, The Guardian or the infamous British Braodcasting Corporation.

Life is so restricted isn't it. I suppose we must rely on such dubious publications as The Jerusalem Post, Little Green Footballs, Biased BBC, Fox News, AIPAC or Melanie Phillips together with such unbiased scribblings of Ann.

Simon Concannon

'The War Against The Jews': another article leaving us in no doubt that Mel et al are the eternal victims. Oh dear.

Ann

"Like I said this is one of the many violent verses in the Torah. Check out the other Jewish holy book the Talmud for more quotes" -

'the other book', eh? You have no idea what you are talking about, do you? I wonder which type of website you copied this illiterate stuff from. Actually, I know only too well.

These are embellished stories from 3000 years ago. Trying to equate them to 2008 C.E. military manuals is stupid.

jose garcia

MIKE wrote
I'm at a complete loss. What do you think I should do Jose?.

just tell the arabs they dont have a holy right to exterminate people of other faiths, in search of a global caliphate.

good luck

Fabio P.Barbieri

Mike: just because a lot of people repeat a lie, it does not cease being a lie. Historically, that is especially true where the Jews are concerned. Their ability to attract mendacious and murderous hatred is quite remarkable. You evidently imagine that what you are told three times is true. Do grow up, won't you?

Ashton: it is literally impossible not to use insulting language for your intelligence and character, because in your case it's not insult, it's description. Just to set you straight on one matter, the Talmud is no more a book than the main hall of a major library is a book. "Their other book" - implying that Jews have no other, by the way - shows that you have no notion whatsoever of what you are talking about, and that you seek your information at fourth hand among Jew-bashers who pass on the same myths from each other. You are infinitely worse than a liar: you are someone who wants to be lied to, because you know that only lies will suit your hate-ridden soul. In your case, to tell you to go to Hell is strictly redundant: you are in Hell right here on Earth, so that there is not even the need for any metaphysical argument to demonstrate the possibility of a future damnation.

Mike

Commondog: Did you watch the interview of President Shimon Peres by Sir David Frost?

Presumably both men were 'making wild and romantic estimations.....pretending they know what the hell they are talking about'?

Mike

George: Nowhere will you find in anything I write a defence of extremists. What we are seeing in Lebanon is yet another war by proxy between America and Iran/Syria. It would seem that Lebanon has always lurched from crisis to crisis to crisis...a mirror of all the conflicts in the Region. But that's Lebanon....if it didn't have sectarian vilolence then I guess it wouldn't be Lebanon.

Just for you......one of the happiest periods of my life was the time I spent with my wife and young family in that country.....there's something about the place that one just can't let go. A number of friends from those days who I still have contact with say the same.

I do hope you can understand this.

Mike

Fabio P.Barbieri: Regrets, but I have to ask you to kindly enlarge on the so-called 'lies'. What 'lies'?

Also, and perhaps you haven't read the many exchanges I've enjoyed on these pages, but personally I don't harbour any hatred of the Jewish people. All my many criticisms are solely of the policies of Israel's administration, and the support of everything it does 'Right or Wrong'. It would seem I'm not entirely alone in this.

Ann

Mike, my statement was factual. You call it 'invective' because you can't rebut it.

And yes, you are not alone in your obssessive hatred of Israel: so what?

Ann

Sureofnothing, my so-called 'scribblings' contain more knowledge of Israel than you'll have in your entire life. All we see from you is regurgitated hatred, copied from the usual Jew-haters.

Ann

David Frost certainly doesn't know what the heck he's talking about: does he have any first-hand knowledge of Israel? He's a cosseted member of what is laughingly called the 'British intelligentsia', a semi-educated media clown who thinks he looks important and that this proves anything.
Peres is a sentimental old man, although even in his younger days he often romanticised the political situation and was never known in Israel (certainly not since the late 50s) as a man who knew how to get things done, but rather as a fantasist. It's absurd to accord to his daydreams any special significance.

field

Ravi -

You say "Palestine was given as The Jewish National home"

Well factually that's not true in as much as your statement implies the WHOLE of Palestine (which, as MP points out, then included a much larger area).

Furthermore a "Jewish national home" is clearly not a state. If it were a state then they would have said a state. Presumably people were thinking of the position of Ireland within the UK, or of Hungary within Austria-Hungary or some such.

Israel's right to exist does not depend on the Balfour declaration to my mind. It depends on the UN backed partition and the recognition subsequently given to Israel by the vast majority of other states. That in turn was a recognition of the substantial number of Jews living there, their legitimate acqusition of land and the inability of the Arabs to live in peace with the Jews.

J. Isaacs

HochMagandy - Dr. J. is also an expert skipper, but skipping the whole TV set is a remedy too far. Current medical research suggests Luton Fever sufferers should view Sir Alan Sugar's recent pronouncements on kosher chickens(see Harry's Place thread).
Simon Concannon - Isn't concannon that Irish culinary favourite comprising minced hairy bacon, cabbage and spuds, sometimes served as a rissole? You are advertising on the wrong website. Also see Sir Alan.

phil

Mike you quote

Just for you......one of the happiest periods of my life was the time I spent with my wife and young family in that country.....there's something about the place that one just can't let go. A number of friends from those days who I still have contact with say the same.I do hope you can understand this.

this is just one more of your delusions.I have dear Lebanese friends(Moslem)who agree with your memory of paradise but their recollection is that it changed into a graveyard with the advent of the militant Islamists and the PlO.you are still incessantly copy and pasting your friend fisks writing and finding anything to denigrate Israel-That beleaguered country may not be perfect ,nor its people, but nor would you after 60 years of living under threat .Nevertheless one can still walk about without fear of your life as a Christian or Moslem ,vote ,and voice your views and talk of peace with your enemies ,can you replicate this in any of the countries you so strongly support?

your idea that the Lebanon is fighting a war between Iran /Syria and the USA is just another piece of blame and shame ,and no doubt you will soon include Israel in that ,whereas it is as usual fundamentalist Islam against a secular state wishing to live in peace and a peace that would include Israel .

Mike I have said to you on numerous occasions visit Israel and then make your judgement instead of listening only to your foolish friend without questioning his facts .

Happily we can enjoy some agreement from yesterday -Giggsy is a star

Mike

Ann: Sorry love....you've lost me..... what was there to 'rebut'? By the way, you may not care for Sir David Frost, but he does seem to have the habit of interviewing most of the main movers on this planet, and has done for a very long time. Perhaps you're too young to remember. He doesn't set himself up as an expert on anything....he just to ask the right questions. As for the President of Israel speaking for his country on it's 60th Birthday, who would you have chosen to represent the Israeli people on this auspicious day?

Further, where is all this hate that you continually rant about? Is your life such, and how you view the world, so conditioned by hate that you can't think straight? To my mind it smacks of paranoia ie: 'a disturbed thought process characterized by excessive anxiety or fear, often to the point of irrationality and delusion. Paranoid thinking typically includes persecutory beliefs concerning a perceived threat'.

Please don't slam the door on your way out!

Ravi

Life is so restricted isn't it. I suppose we must rely on such dubious publications as The Jerusalem Post, Little Green Footballs, Biased BBC, Fox News, AIPAC or Melanie Phillips together with such unbiased scribblings of Ann. Or to put it another way "Who can trust Jews or people who support Israel?" I get this all the time. Show somethimng from MEMRI where people's lips move, you can hear the arabic and see the translation and we will get told its a Mossad plot to discredit some Arabian Antisemite. Remember how Livingstone defended Qaradawi by trying to suggest that it was all lies against him by Zionists and pro-Israel supporters - until Qaradawi opened his mouth to BBC Newsnight confirming everything that was said about him. You have to accept that organisations exist to support their cause. Of COURSE they are biased towards positive statements to support that cause. It doesn't make them liars.

Ben-Tsiyon

Shimon Peres and the late Yitzhak Rabin (tragically assassinated)caused irreparable damage to their country and people via the so-called Oslo "accords". They gave a new lease on life to what was at that time a discredited organization, the PLO, when they foolishly chose to "recognize" it as the "true representative" of the "Palestinian people". They deluded themselves into believing that "recognition" of Israel and a true and lasting peace could be obtained, a total impossibility when attempting to deal with people who are totally dedicated to your destruction. All the "accords", all the "road maps", all the Big Power pressure will come to naught , and ceasefires will simply give the villains time in which to reorganize and replenish their weaponry, ready for the next round.

Simon Willis

It's amusing reading some of the frantic, paranoid vitriol of people like Ann and co. Everyone who disagrees with her is an 'Israel hater', 'anti-semite, 'Jew hater' etc. People like her are so devoid of real arguments to support their utra-nationalistic, racial ideology, that all they can do is call names in the hope of stifling the discussion and silencing their opponents.

Oh no, I must be an anti-semite. Sorry Ann, shalom.

Ravi

field, let me adjust you. Palestine was given as The Jewish National Home by the Mandate of 1922. Jews had sole political rights while Arabs had civil and religious rights. The British tried to create two States out of the situation with Res 181. It was adopted by the UN but not accepted by the Arabs. In 1948 they attacked the Jews and lost. Israel then declared its independence and was recognised for Statehood by the UN. After all, the UN had just passed Res 181 so they could hardly refuse. You say that Israel's right to exist does not depend on The Balfour Declaration. You are correct. Balfour Declaration has no legal status. Its just a Thank You letter.

M Clyde

What's always interested me is that modern Jewish immigration to 'Palestine' began under the last Caliphate (from 1880s onwards). Modern German Jewish farmers were well-established there by the time T E Lawrence encountered the peoples of a land he called 'Syria'.

Ann

I see that Mike is back to his old delusional rants, stomping about and screeching about slamming doors, as though he is the king of the castle and has the power to tell people to leave this blog. His behaviour is that of a spoiled brat whose tantrums have been indulged for too long.
Mike, you don't own this blog. You can't tell me to leave. Get used to it. You are only making yourself look like the silly little man you are.

Ben-Tsiyon

I wish that Mike (the original) would go paddle his canoe elsewhere. "Honest", undisguised Jew-hatred is "preferable" to his smug, self-righteous, camouflaged variety. Detestable ! Why on earth (the too nice) Phil is glad to see him back is beyond me !

Mike

Phil: Once again you are putting forward a disagreement where none exists. I've said it before that I've always believed the presence of so many Palestinian refugees in Lebanon in 1974 was the catylyst for the Civil War of that time. I said it then (I was there remember), long before I ever heard of Robert Fisk.

The present flare-up in this tinder-box, is between the US supported Government of Prime Minister Fouad Siniora, backed by Druze leader Walid Jumblatt, and Sayed Hassan Nasrallah's Hizbollah backed by Iran and Syria. The street battles we saw in Beirut, and now in Tripoli, are between Shia and Sunni (what's new?)...the Shia supporting Iranian-armed Hizbollah and the Sunni, the Lebanese Government.

What we have is a state within a state, and the Lebanese Army is unable to sort it out simply because it is made up of Sunni and Shia personnel and must retain its impartiality.

Hizbollah's real enemy, of course, isn't the Lebanese Government but Israel.....that is why Hizbollah insists on maintaining its own cameras and communication systems at Beirut Airport. Meanwhile, the roads to the Airport are controlled not by the Lebanese, but by Hizbollah, effectively closing it down.

Lebanon still doesn't have an elected President.....the country is in crisis...yet again....and nobody has a solution.... least of all not by American meddling. No doubt it will play itself out.....over time.

Mike

Ann: Silly lady...I wasn't suggesting you leave the blog....not at all. I was hoping that 'slamming the door' as you left the room would help rid you of some of your agression.

By the way, I notice you chose to ignore my question about who you would have preferred to represent Israel on its 60th for the interview by Sir David Frost.

Finally, kindly let me know which comment by you to me I'm supposed to rebut.

Mike