The obsession

roGER

How strange that if Palestinian society didn't exist the Israelis found it necessary to demolish some 400 Palestinian villages and often establish Jewish communities in their place.

Thinkster

Eureka! I have an idea. If people believe the Jews control the world, why doesn't someone setup a professional, verified web page that lists all the major institutions of the world, and who leads them. The public, Guardian readers included, can then draw their own conclusions.

phil

The nonsense spewed out about the West bank,the wall and the crossings is becoming increasingly ridiculous as is most of what Israel is accused of -The Arabs were attacking the Israelis well before the West bank etc came into the argument.no one had heard of the settlements -so why is this the cause for all this criticism ?well I don't need an answer ,we all know ,anything will do .Peace and people who want that peace is what we should be talking about not the endless lies that are being published and preclude that path to peace

Ravi

Melanie, as of 6:00pm there is no mention on the BBC website of the rocket attack in Ashkelon wounding several, some seriously. That must mean that Bowen is unavailable to write the reason why its Israel's fault. Guardian, Independent and BBC must be competing for the vilest approach to Israel as it turns 60. Isn't it appalling that NONE of them has a single good word to write about Israel?

Lynne T

Einstein was certainly a brilliant scientist and Barenboim a great musician, but their views of Jewish history and theology should carry no more weight than the extent of their knowledge of the issue at hand. But I guess seeking out quotes like that rather than seeking out and wading through historic facts and UN resolutions makes for very easy work for the journalists, doesn't it?

Ravi

How strange that if Palestinian society didn't exist the Israelis found it necessary to demolish some 400 Palestinian villages and often establish Jewish communities in their place. Arabs lived in Palestine and they had stets created in Jordan, The Lebanon and Syria. Good thing there was a Jewish National home or 800,000 Jews fleeing from Arab countries wouldn't have anywhere to live. And if Israel tried to remove Arabs then how come their declaration of Independence guarantees their civil and religious rights, as defined by The Mandate, PLUS they have political rights.

Ravi

If people believe the Jews control the world, why doesn't someone setup a professional, verified web page that lists all the major institutions of the world, and who leads them. They did. Its called "Jew Watch" - banned by Google for its rabid Antisemitism. "Izzy, why don't you read the Jewish Chronicle? Well, I read it and I get depressed (except when Melanie writes an article). But when I read the Guardian, Independent and listen to the BBC I learn that we Jews control the media, Hollywood, the law, governments, the money. Then I feel good!" (old joke)

Ann

"We wanted to own land that had never belonged to Jews" -

Barenboim has always been an ignorant idiot. He was completely taken in by the brazen lies of Said, the fake Harvard 'academic'.

stanley Jerusalem

Jews are famous for their pragmatism. When 19th Century composer Jacques Offenbach [from an orthodox Jewish Frankfurt family]- the toast of Paris and exremely rich and successful- was shown Richard Wagner's vile pamphlet on the Jews'contribution to music, his printed quotation to the press was " Let him carry on writing music".
Who gives a sh*t what Einstein or Barenboim think of Jews, Judaism or of Israel; it's not their scene and proficiency in one field doesn't guarantee proficiency in others - just the usual amount of hearsay and "received wisdom" garnered from influential journals.
Of course, they could be misinformed or even flattered into believing that their pre-eminence in one field guarantees a receptive audience irrespective of the twaddle they spout.
Einstein changed his stance on the status and relevance of religion to himself quite a few times in his long and scientifically fruitful life.
All Danny Boy has managed to do outside his early and middle years is to play Wagner to Israelis who didn't want to hear it and tout his Divan Orchestra around the politically tone-deaf world.

Louise

Incidentally, Melanie, while we're on the subject of Guardianista-vein press bias against Israel, a journalistic minnow surfaces in a provincial paper today to take a pot shot at your good self. Yes, Patrick O'Brien of the Aberystwyth edition of The Cambrian News (which is guaranteed to raise a laugh each week, if only for its dodgy grammar) has devoted part of his "Comment" page to you and your remarks about the International Politics Dept at the local seat of learning. Not so long ago the same scribe embarked upon a shrill campaign to shame the university into cutting its pension fund's links with Israeli investment.

Harvey

Well there's a surprise!

My comment the other day where I actually agreed with Mel was waved through by 'moderation'. A critical comment seems to have got lost in the ether. There can't be a problem with calling rabid racists - er- rabid racists as these comments are full of zionist nutjobs shrieking 'anti-semite' at anyone with the temerity to disagree. If these comments columns are simply a primal scream therapy facility for zionist nutjobs, at least say so...

Tony

Albert said:

“For me the Jewish religion like all others is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything “chosen” about them.”

Now what exactly is objectionable about this statement? Human beings are human beings – some are good, some are bad, some are smart and some are foolish.

To claim any one group has been especially ‘chosen’ by an invisible Sky God (whether you call it Yahweh, Allah, Zeus or the Flying Spaghetti Monster) should be regarded as just plain silly.

Denis MacEoin

Here's a copy of a letter I sent to The Guardian today:

Dear Sir,

Israel (whose 60th birthday you celebrate so harshly)
is not without its faults, but it is equally not
without its achievements. As many of us, Jews and
non-Jews alike, celebrate the great things Israel has
done and continues to do, you choose to focus on one
thing, Gaza. Israel no longer occupies Gaza, yet you
present no other images to mark the post-Holocaust
recovery but images of Gaza, no other articles than
articles stressing the miseries of Palestinian life.
Where are your photographs of Israeli hospitals where
Jews and Palestinians are treated on the same wards?
Where are your images of Israel's cutting edge medical
and technological research? Her scientific and
artistic achievements? Her preservation of a genuine
democracy in the face of repeated attack and splenetic
hatred? Her aid work round the world (and today,
before almost anyone else, in Burma)?

The words that spring to mind for this week's coverage
are 'churlish', 'bitter', 'unfair' and 'one-sided'.
Your motives are harder to place. Love for Palestinans
is commendable, though love for Hamas is harder to
understand. And do you feel love and fellowship for
their ingrained racism, their religious
fundamentalism, their praise of suicide bombers, their
celebrations of death, their regular use of
misguidance through the media? By all means be
politically correct, but BE correct. Palestinian
values are not liberal values, yet your animus towards
Israel and your embrace of movements like Hamas give
credence and respectability to them.

Is it beyond your ability to show photos of Jews and
Arabs working together, of Israeli doctors saving
Palestinian lives, of prosperous Arab communities in
Israel, of women enjoying full equality with men, of
gay pride parades in Tel Aviv, of minority religions
like the Baha'is living without harrasment, given
freedoms no other Middle Eastern country will give
them? There are poor Israelis, there are Israeli
victims of terror, there are Israelis living under
daily barrages of rockets, there are Israelis who
build schools and invent new technologies, who run
orphanages and sing songs and write poetry and dance.
What makes Palestinian suffering, much of it
self-inflicted, so all-encompassing that it drives all
positive images from the other side from your pages?
We deserve better. You deserve to be better.

Yours sincerely,

Dr. Denis MacEoin

Thinkster

@Denis MacEoin: Spot on. Did they publish it? I bet not!

Avraham G

Stanley, you have hit the spot about Barenboim. Your view also applies to the late Yehudi Menuin, amongst the finest of Jewish musicians but a rabid Israelophobe. As for Barenboim himself, I remember going to a fine concert he gave in the 1960s with my late father when I was nine. On asking him to autograph my programme he put a capital D and a straight line across the programme and then stormed off. As my father said then, "not what we Jews call a
mensch."

Ravi

Denis your letter is brilliant - so they won't publish it. You made the mistake of saying something positive about Israel. Where are the key-words of "Nazi", "apartheid" and "racist"? You needed those to qualify.

James

The Guardian hates white Europeans and supports their enemies. The US, as the most powerful white European nation, is the great bogey of the Guardian. Israel is its ally, so the Guardian hates it too. If the Guardian were simply anti-Jewish, it would try to minimize the Holocaust. It doesn't, because the Holocaust is used to portray white Europeans as uniquely evil and xenophobic.

Terry

The description 'islamofascist' best fits the Guardian. So far left that they are far right. I'm listening to them. I'm taking in what they stand for. And if they have any sense they will reflect on the fate of Lord Haw Haw before them. He also hated Jews and democracy.

A Chaffey

Read this once and you might think this is nonsense. Read it twice however and you are left wondering what, beyond the snears smears and distortions, MP has really said. Not much really.

Louise

Denis, what a wonderful letter - perfect in every way.

Shy Guy

roGER
May 14th, 2008 5:42pm

How strange that if Palestinian society didn't exist

“...[the Palestinian Arabs'] basic sense of corporate historic identity was, at different levels, Muslim or Arab or - for some - Syrian; it is significant that even by the end of the Mandate in 1948, after thirty years of separate Palestinian political existence, there were virtually no books in Arabic on the history of Palestine..”
- Bernard Lewis, Semites and Anti-Semites: An Inquiry into Conflict and Prejudice, (New York: Norton, 1999), p. 186

"We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds."
- Adopted resolution of the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations, Jerusalem, February 1919, documented by Yehoshua Porath, Palestinian Arab National Movement: From Riots to Rebellion: 1929-1939, vol. 2, (London: Frank Cass and Co., Ltd., 1977), pp. 81-82

"There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."
- Local Arab leader Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, 1937, testimony to the Peel Commission, documented by Moshe Kohn, “The Arabs’ ‘Lie’ of the Land,” Jerusalem Post, (October 18, 1991)

"Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity."
- The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations, statement to the General Assembly, May 1947

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."
- Ahmed Shuqeiri, chairman-to-be of the PLO, address to the UN Security Council, documented by Avner Yaniv, PLO, (Jerusalem: Israel Universities Study Group of Middle Eastern Affairs, August 1974), p. 5

the Israelis found it necessary to demolish some 400 Palestinian villages and often establish Jewish communities in their place.

The Palestinian Refugees.

Thanks for initiating this opportunity to educate - if not you, then others who were just as uninformed until now.

Bwilliamson

The one state solution is a canard for the destruction of Israel. Right of return involves millions of Arabs swamping Israel thus turning it from a Zionist Homeland into yet another state where Jews are persecuted. The media culprits talk as if no precedent exists but how many Jews live peacefully side by side with equal rights in Arab countries? Imagine being Jewish in Iran? 800,000 Jews were rendered refugees in the Middle East after the 1948 war, either chucked out or forced by persecution from those Arab nations and they now live in their rightful homeland of Israel. That was their right of return now threatened by a belligerent UN or Bush and Rice looking for a quick fix legacy. Our media (BBC, Guardian, Independent) takes all Arab pronouncements on face value. They judge as if judging our own cultures but not one takes into account the taqiya sanctioned lies used as bargaining chips or realises that declarations of peace from the Palestinian quarter are nothing more than temporay or hudna just to gain time. A bit of boning up on Islamic history or culture and law would do them no harm. Until then they are the blind leading the blind.

Dennis

With the Middle East awash with greedy petro-dollars, why have the Arab states not help to uplift their "palastinian bretheren" with massive financial aid and assistance? Do they want to keep them there as an excuse to villify Israel or would the Palestinians just sqander the money and squabble amongst themselves???

Hereford

Einstien is also quoted as saying it is impossible to work towards a peace whilst waging war. This was the basis for his general theory of total bollocks. Great mathematician yes, but that fact doesn't mean his intellect extends beyond his discipline. We do this continually as a society a. is brilliant at discipline x. therefore anything he/she says about issue y. must be right.

London Calling

The Obsession for Gods Land

Whilst I am in full support of the existence of the state of Israel and their right to live in peace, I am not in agreement to the Land rape which has resulted in Israel’s expansion into lands that do not belong to them.
I cannot accept the destruction of Olive trees, the removal of Arab peoples whom have legal land deeds that support their rights to such land and the burial place of their ancestors, which are being bulldozed by Israelis and for further Jewish settlements.
I appreciate it is a problem of population expansion for Jewish families, in that the land they currently live no longer supports the growing population, but it does not excuse Israel’s solution to the problem, which in my view is unacceptable behaviour and ungrounded as a way forward to resolve conflict between Muslims and Jews.

To the Jewish people, the Holy Land was promised by G-d as stated in the Torah for future generations, the restoration of which the rebuilding of Solomon’s Temple, would fulfil that promise.
Following the destruction Of The platform, greatly enlarged under the rule of Herod the Great, was the former site of the Second Jewish Temple which was destroyed during the Roman Siege of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

The Islamic Dome of Rock erected in 685-691AD for Muslim Pilgrims was built on the Holy platform of the previous Jewish Temple and it continues to date to be the thorn of contention between Jews and Muslims, as to dismount the Dome of Rock would deem deeply offensive to Muslims and Allah (God) and the its continued placement is also deeply offensive to the Jewish peoples and G-D, as it represents the prevention of the eventual restoration of The Jewish temple.

I would therefore conclude that the only solution and way forward I visualize for peace between the Jews and the Arabs, is to remind ourselves of days passed, whereby Christians, Jews and Muslims lived together, prospered together, and most of all lived together in peace in Jerusalem, before the Crusades led by Rome. This can only be bought about by Israel first, by stopping any further land expansion and the return of lands belonging to Arab people that have legal deeds, also the replanting of Olive trees as a peace offering and reconciliation.
Once peace is agreed and fermented, in time the Jewish leaders and Arab leaders can sit together and compromise in resolving the rebuilding of the Jewish temple, and both sides should exhaust themselves with their wisdom and insight to meet that compromise for both their peoples, even if it means the Dome and the Temple sit side by side in celebration of the unity formed by the two.

After all Gods land is Gods, and if we all trust in God then what are we really fighting for?

To truly Love God is to honour and respect each other, no matter what religion or creed we all are, as to date we have failed Gods love so miserably in my view in our obsession for Gods Land.

Ravi

I just don't think I can take this any more! If you ever look at any BBC News website concerniong Israel/Palestinians you will find 75% is against Israel. At this moment we have a main news feature about "Israel at 60" which has Abbas talking about "the catastrophe" and the main News picture Item on teh front page of BBC news is a photo of the wall part of the barrier with a lone Palestinian. I just CANNOT believe the bias of the BBC. As a license payer am I to declare "We are all Palestinians now (including suicide terrorists and missile firing milititants (sorry terrorists))?

Ravi

Well "London Calling" (or is it Mecca Callaing?) with which state institution did Arabs hold land deeds since there was no official political entity who controlled the land and its allocation to citizens. In fact, to whom were they citizens. (Of course I recognise that families have left their homes and that sometimes there are injustices). How can you rape yourself? The land you speak about was given BACK to the Jewish People. Do you acknowledge that Palestinians (Arabs) have desecrated Jewish holy places, destroyed synagogues, religious writings as well as massacred Jews. Or didn't any of that happen. I believe that there might be peace as soon as the Palestinians stop indoctrinating their children to become martyrs and think of Jews as apes and pigs. When Palestian child abuse ceases then maybe they will learn to love their kids more than they hate Jews (Golda Meir)

patricia

Pathetic.

You, not the Guardian.

London Calling

You squawk and Squawk like a Raven, do you hunger for peace? or do you hunger for war?

You just don’t get it do you? The War is over my friend, it took two thousands years but tomorrow is a New Day.

God wants the Land back, we are the children Ravi, not the warriors of old.

Evolve your mind into being, or be in darkness forever.

Peace shall reign, for Darkness cannot hide from the Light no more.

In my view of course...

phil

Tony I DON'T KNOW WHERE ALBERT SAID IT but I must clear up your misunderstanding if that is what it is and nobody has corrected you -the term chosen people refers only to the 10 commandments and the law that god gave to the Israelite ,s-on mount Sinai they were not chosen to have the oil or the oranges nor for any special privileges -merely to keep his law and many still do -we do not think we are special if that is what occurred to you -hope that clarifies things and if you want to join us I can tell you its tough to keep them

Avraham G.

You are definitely spot on about the chosen people, phil, but I thought the ten commandments were only our top ten and there are, in fact, 613 commandments to the Jewish people in the Torah. A bit harder for Tony to keep if he wants to become Orthodox.

Adam B.

Patricia, yet another insightful, thought-provoking comment. Where would we be without you?

Pathetic. You and the Guardian.

Adam B.

The Guardian and the so-called Independent are beneath contempt, but it is the BBC which impacts on the man in the street. These two "news" papers will never change, because their readership is based on loony left people who think like this, but the BBC is legally bound to be impartial, which clearly, it is not. Just how does the BBC get away with it?

Not once have I ever heard on the BBC any mention of 800,000 Jews who were made refugees from Arab lands in 1948. Not a single time.

Barry

London Calling said

" ...is to remind ourselves of days passed, whereby Christians, Jews and Muslims lived together, prospered together, and most of all lived together in peace in Jerusalem, before the Crusades led by Rome."

You really need to catch up on your history. After the Muslims invaded and occupied Jerusalem and surrounds there was no peace not for Jews and not for Christians.
That's why the crusades took place.
All the Christian communities, from Constantinople all the way across North Africa were virtually wiped out.
Read up on the millions of Hindus who were slaughtered in what is now India in the invasion east at around the same time of the "kumbaya" in Jerusalem.

Avraham G

Hereford. Your comment reminds me of the famous story of Einstein, a very indifferent violin player, playing a duet with his friend Artur Rubinstein, the renowned piano recitalist. After one faltering attempt by Einstein to begin the piece in 4/4 time, Rubinstein slammed down the piano lid and shouted, "Albert can't you count?"

Mark Solomon

It has always been beyond my understanding why there is a dispute about Israel. The Jews lived there for thousands of years, were expelled by the Romans, the Arabs moved in to the vacant land and any 'rights' they have were retrospectively granted by their Ottoman overlords, another group of invaders. So in 1948 justice was finally done establishing a state of Israel that was immediately invaded by murderous neighbours intent on finishing off what Hitler started. In 20 years neither Egypt nor Jordan set up a 'Palestinian' state, which has never ever existed even during the centuries of Turkish rule. Palestine/Palestinean are just modern inventions. How can anyone support a homeland for an invented people against the rights of one dating back - documented and provable - thousands of years?

Anyway, there already is a state with the majority of the land of historical Palestine which has a majority 'Palestinean' ie Arab population. It's called Jordan. Those who want to live in a Palestinean state in historical Palestine should move there and devote their energies to removing the ruling elite of imposed outsiders (Hashemites) brought in by the British (yet another of our big mistakes) in the 1920s, and leave Israel alone. I simply cannot see what this whole argument is about as the facts are clear and indisputable.

London Calling

Jerusalem prior to the crusades was a place filled with a thriving trade, scholars and madrasas. The crusades destroyed all such wealth and, above all, scholarship. This destruction, which will be considered in some detail in the last part of this article, will show how learning declined in Jerusalem due to the devastation of war inflicted upon Islam. Despite some improvement following the recapture of the city by Salah–ud-din in 1187, the city never recovered its prime scholarly activity, and just like the rest of the Muslim world, also suffering from the same problems, fell into gradual decline.
The thriving character of the city prior to the crusades is caught by the traveller Nasr-ud-din Khusraw who saw the city in 1047 just decades before the crusades. He noted how things were cheap and plentiful and how the city had beautiful markets and high buildings. It had a great number of craftsmen and each craft had its market. The city was large with the number of inhabitants at about a hundred thousand. Nasr Khusraw refers to a great teaching hospital with rich waqfs dedicated to it, from which medicines for its numerous patients were dispensed and salaries for doctors were paid. He also refers to hostels for the Sufis by the mosque where they lived and prayed.
Al-Ghazali wrote his most influential Tahafut al-Falasifa (The Destruction of Philosophy)
It has always been my practice, as a youth and as a man, to thirst for knowledge of the true nature of things…. So that I can be freed from the bond of imitation.'
For al-Ghazali personal knowledge should lead on to good deeds which please God and lead to salvation. He was also a very prominent scholar; his Maqasid al-Falasifah (The Aims of the Philosophers) was translated into Latin in the twelfth century and became very influential amongst scholastic Christian theologians. He deeply influenced the medieval Jewish philosophers, Maimonides . Even Christian writers - particularly Aquinas, Dante, and Pascal - found inspiration in his translated works and used his ideas in the defence of their religion.
http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=508

London Calling

Jerusalem prior to the crusades was a place filled with a thriving trade, scholars and madrasas. The crusades destroyed all such wealth and, above all, scholarship. This destruction, which will be considered in some detail in the last part of this article, will show how learning declined in Jerusalem due to the devastation of war inflicted upon Islam. Despite some improvement following the recapture of the city by Salah–ud-din in 1187, the city never recovered its prime scholarly activity, and just like the rest of the Muslim world, also suffering from the same problems, fell into gradual decline.
The thriving character of the city prior to the crusades is caught by the traveller Nasr-ud-din Khusraw who saw the city in 1047 just decades before the crusades. He noted how things were cheap and plentiful and how the city had beautiful markets and high buildings. It had a great number of craftsmen and each craft had its market. The city was large with the number of inhabitants at about a hundred thousand. Nasr Khusraw refers to a great teaching hospital with rich waqfs dedicated to it, from which medicines for its numerous patients were dispensed and salaries for doctors were paid. He also refers to hostels for the Sufis by the mosque where they lived and prayed.
Al-Ghazali wrote his most influential Tahafut al-Falasifa (The Destruction of Philosophy)
It has always been my practice, as a youth and as a man, to thirst for knowledge of the true nature of things…. So that I can be freed from the bond of imitation.'
For al-Ghazali personal knowledge should lead on to good deeds which please God and lead to salvation. He was also a very prominent scholar; his Maqasid al-Falasifah (The Aims of the Philosophers) was translated into Latin in the twelfth century and became very influential amongst scholastic Christian theologians. He deeply influenced the medieval Jewish philosophers, Maimonides . Even Christian writers - particularly Aquinas, Dante, and Pascal - found inspiration in his translated works and used his ideas in the defence of their religion.
http://www.muslimheritage.com/topics/default.cfm?ArticleID=508

London Calling

JEW, CHRISTIANS AND MUSLIMS IN HOLY LAND
AND JERUSALEM
By Reverend Labib Kobti,
(1) The original inhabitants of what is known today to the three Abrahamic faiths as the Holy Land, and it's focal city for the three religions, Jerusalem, were the Canaanites. Jerusalem was originally a village built on a hill. The name "Urushalim is first found on Egyptian statues, circa 2500 b.c. The Amorites (some historians identify them with the Canaanites) were also the first inhabitants of Jerusalem and the Holy Land. "Urushalim", in fact is a word of Canaanite-Amorite derivation; the prefix uru, meaning "founded by", and the suffix "salem" or "shalem" being the name of a Canaanite-Amorite deity. This evidence is reinforced by tablets found in Elba, Syria, dating back to 3000 b.c., on which the god Shalem being venerated in a city called Uruksalem is mentioned. The Old name of the city Urushalim figures also in the Egyptian texts called Texts of Proscription of XII dynasty 'ws'mm pronounced in Akkadian language Urushalim city of god.
The Canaanites, the original inhabitants, are also known as the Phoenicians. The Greeks gave the Canaanites the name phoenix or phoinos (red blood), since to the Greeks the people they called Phoenicians had a reddish, sunburned skin, which reminded them of they mythological bird, the phoenix, which had purple and gold coloring. Alternatively, some scholars feel that these dark skinned people came from the south-eastern, semi-arid desert regions of what is today known as the countries of Kuwait and Bahrein in the Gulf region. The Canaanites were also known as the "Purple People" or the "Purple Empire", since they were a coastal people, and were among the first to take advantage of seafaring for both economic trade routes, as well as for war and conquest. There are yet other scholars who believe the name "purple people" is derived from the purple dye popularly used in the coloring of their cloths and garments.
The Bible describes these people in Genesis 10:8-12. At any rate, regardless of which of these historical origins is correct, it is generally agreed by all that the Canaanites, later named the Phoenicians were the original inhabitants of the Holy Land and Jerusalem. In the northern regions of what is now known as Lebanon and Syria they were called by the name, Phoenicians. In the areas to the South, they were called the Canaanites.
(2) The historical record shows no mention of Jerusalem for five centuries prior to the 14th Century b.c., when King Abdi Hepa, the last king of the Canaanites, and a vasal monarch of Egypt, wrote to the Pharaoh Aknaton ( who is known in history as the Pharoah who developed monotheism, the religious belief in one God), and implored him to rid Jerusalem of new invaders. He described a group of people known as the "Habirus", as having already conquered Rushada, and advancing on Jerusalem. Aknaton, instead, conquered Canaan and Southern Syria, and left Jerusalem to be taken by the Jebusites. Subsequently Jerusalem was conquered by successive waves of Hitites, Philistines, and others. The conquering peoples became inhabitants of the land and its settled towns and villages, mixing with the original inhabitants, the Canaanites.
(3) In 1000 b.c., the Hebrew king David, conquered Jerusalem, and established it as his capital. At the time of his conquest, the city was known as "Jebus". Upon bringing the Arch of Alliance from Abinadab, Qirat-Yearim, he renamed it Jerusalem, once again. The Hebrew inhabitants of the combined kingdom of Judea in the South and Israel in the North, with the centralized city of Jerusalem as it's capital, integrated with the Canaanites, Amorites, Jebusites, Hitties, Philistines and other groups, through natural assimilation. Mention of this is made in the Bible: "Thus says the Lord God to Jerusalem. Your origin and birth are the land of Canaan, your father was an Amorite, and your mother a Hittite" (Ezekiel 16:3).
(4) In the year 597 b.c. the Babylonian empire conquered Jerusalem. The Temple to the Hebrew God YHVH, built by King David, was destroyed and much of the Jewish population(Jew comes from the word Judah, one of the 12 tribes) were deported to Babylon, known to Jews as the Babylonian captivity. Other ethnic inhabitants of Jerusalem, the descendants of the Canaanites, Amorites, Hittites, and Philistins, assimilated with the new conquerors. There is in Jewish prayer texts, a prayer imploring God to return Jews to the Holy City.("if I forget thee, oh Jerusalem, let my right hand forget it's cunning."). The book of Psalms relates to the nostalgia for Jerusalem and The Temple. King Cyrus of Persia defeated the Babylonians 48 years after the advent of the Babylonian captivity, freed the Jews, and offered to allow them to return to Jerusalem, and rebuild the Temple. About half of the Jewish population of Babylon did return. Successive waves of conquest were successfully achieved by the Greeks (under Alexander) and later the Romans. However, at all times, the permanent inhabitants of the Holy Land and Jerusalem remained those peoples who had descended from the Canaanites, Amorites, Jebusites, and Philistins, who had never left, and had integrated with the Hebrews, Assyrians, Babylonians, Greeks and Romans.
(5) In the year 63 b.c. the land was under the control of the Roman Empire. When Jesus Christ began his mission, the land was under the same Roman occupation. Through all of this, the people living there, as outlined above, had never left. The Gospel of St. Matthew speaks about the Canaanites in section 15:22, more than one thousand years after the conquest of Jerusalem by King David, and shows the permanent presence of these people in the Holy Land. Many of these people subsequently converted to the Christian religion. However, religion per se, does not change the origin of people. None of the three Abrahamic religions, Judaism, Christianity or Islam, change that fact. The ancient original inhabitants remain the true owners of the land.
(6) Inspite of pagan Roman persecution, as well as animosity towards the new Christians from some Jewish quarters (mainly the Pharisees), in the first centuries of Christianity, eventually Christianity came to become the dominant religion in the Roman empire and the Ancient World. The Jewish revolt against Rome, in 70 a.d. led to the destruction of the Second Temple, which had been rebuilt, leaving only what has come to be known as the Western or Wailing Wall in what is now East Jerusalem. After the destruction of the Temple, the Romans renamed Jerusalem, "Aelia Capitolina". Jews were prohibited from returningto the city for two hundred years, but the other population groups mentioned, remained and integrated with the Romans.

http://www.al-bushra.org/latpatra/love.htm

London Calling

Shalem was a popular god in the western Semitic pantheon. He was the god of creation and completeness, and of the setting sun. It is very likely that the king of Jerusalem was called the king of Shalem. Abraham met Melchizedek king of Shalem after a military victory: "And Melchizedek the king of Shalem brought forth bread and wine; and he was the priest of the most high god. And he blessed him and said, 'Blessed be Abram of the most high god, possessor of heaven and earth'" (Genesis 14:18-20). The book of Genesis does not record where this meeting took place, but most scholars agree that the king of Shalem was the king of Jerusalem. Perhaps zedek (the Hebrew word for righteousness) was part of the royal family name. The king of Jerusalem who fought Joshua in later times was called Adoni-Zedek. The biblical text reflects a kinship between the concept of the deity worshipped by Abraham and that of the king of Shalem.
Canaanite Jerusalem had two holy sites; both were above and outside the city walls. Shalem was probably worshipped in the area of the Temple Mount, which later became the holiest site for the Jews and the third most holy site for Moslems. The other Canaanite holy site was probably located near the Church of the Holy Sepulcher, the traditional site of the crucifixion. Jerusalem must have been an important town in Canaanite times; it and Shechem are the only two cities in the Judean and Ephraim Hills mentioned in Egyptian writings for 200 years. In the late execration texts (18th century BCE) only Jerusalem is mentioned. Modern excavations have uncovered some of Jerusalem's formidable defenses from the period, when the town was a typical prominent, fortified Canaanite city-state. Remains of the city wall and part of a tower were found near the Gihon Spring. The walled city was built on the hill, with the wall extending down and around the water source. The base of the tower near the spring was exceptionally strong and was part of the city wall throughout the First Temple period.
Jerusalem is not mentioned in literary sources for the next 500 years. However, archaeological evidence indicates that the city remained intact, though very small, only 30-40 dunam (7.5-10 acres). Despite its size Jerusalem was an consequential city, exerting influence over the surrounding towns. Several finds from this period support the picture portrayed in the El-Amarna letters (1405-1350 BCE) of Jerusalem as an influential town in the Judean Hills. A large platform was built on the northern side of the city with retaining walls ten meters high. The structure apparently served as a base for a fortress or large building. Such defenses would only be built by an important town. (The northern side of town was the most vulnerable, as the Canaanite town did not extend to the hill 's summit.) An Egyptian libation tray was found that might have been part of a temple for the local Egyptian garrison. A piece of an Egyptian stele from this time was found north of the present city walls. These finds indicate the importance of Jerusalem to Egypt. Beyond the city walls, the king of Jerusalem controlled an area extending from near Shechem in the north to Jericho in the east, west towards the coastal plain and perhaps even including Hebron to the south. It eventually grew so powerful that rival city-states from as far away as Ashkelon joined forces to defeat the mighty king of Jerusalem (just as Jerusalem had earlier joined a confederation of cities to weaken the king of Shechem who had expanded his sphere of influence). The Ashkelon confederation conquered a town that had belonged to Jerusalem and hijacked a caravan en route to Jerusalem. Greater Jerusalem was also under attack by the Apiru, whose identity is still a mystery.

http://www.biu.ac.il/JS/rennert/history_2.html

London Calling

Mine is not an Obsession, but pursuit of the Truth.

field

I think this puts it all into perspective:

"Professorial. "Jordanian University Lecturer Ibrahim 'Alloush Suggests Sending Suicide-Bombers Armed with 'Small Nuclear Bombs' to Israel," from MEMRITV, May 13 (thanks to Sr. Soph):

Following is an excerpt from an interview with Jordanian university lecturer Dr. Ibrahim 'Alloush, which aired on Al-Jazeera TV on May 13, 2008.

Dr. Ibrahim 'Alloush: Whoever managed to get a martyrdom-seeker into Dimona armed with conventional explosives should consider how to get martyrdom-seekers into Dimona and elsewhere armed with non-conventional explosives and perhaps even small nuclear bombs. We should think in this direction."

Alex Bensky

OK, if there was a Palestinian identity prior to 1948, I'd like to read a book or poem written from a distinctly Palestinian point of view. I'd like to hear a song written by someone who considered himself a Palestinian composer. I'd like to eat something that was considered a distinctively Palestinian dish. I'd like to read the history of some Arab organization that called itself Palestinin. (Of course, prior to 1948 there were people who considered themselves Palestinians, but they were Jews.)

Can one of you direct me to any such item?

Marcus from the USA

The historic claim of Jews to "Israel" is more of a myth than a reality.

According to Jewish tradition Moses led the Israelites out of Egypt into the borders of the Land of Canaan, after which Joshua and his Jewish army conquered the land and massacred its original inhabitants.

These events cannot be backed up by actual historical records, only by Jewish religious ones.

By using the logic of the supporters of Israel, Italians can claim modern day Turkey as their homeland since according to Roman tradition, the Romans were descendants of the Trojans who lived in Antolia(western Turkey).

Sneedy

The only obsession is from Melanie Phillips and those who clumsily attempt to label every and any criticism of Israel as obsession without realising that their own one-sided worldview where they never, ever criticise Israel for anything and blame the Palestinians for everything is what's obsessive...

It's hard to tell the difference between the mindset of someone like Melanie Phillips who denies the existance of the Palestinian people and advocates a 'Greater Israel' encompassing the West Bank and Gaza, and extremists who deny the existance of Israel and advocate a 'Greater Palestine' encompassing Israel....

Ann

"These events cannot be backed up by actual historical records, only by Jewish religious ones"

What amazing ignorance. There are thousands of archaeological records that link the Jewish kingdoms to Israel and confirm many details in the Bible. There are records from other countries too, e.g. Egypt, that confirm many facts stated in the books of Kings etc in the Bible.

Ann

"It's hard to tell the difference between the mindset of someone like Melanie Phillips who denies the existance of the Palestinian people and advocates a 'Greater Israel' encompassing the West Bank and Gaza, and extremists who deny the existance of Israel and advocate a 'Greater Palestine' encompassing Israel"

Except for the minor matter that the former know what they are talking about and are stating the historical truth, whilst the latter are genocidal lunatics intent on murdering the Jewish people. But I am not surprised that ignorant antisemites find this difference difficult to comprehend: you need to have an IQ above room temperature to grasp it.

BJ

Daniel Barenboim is of course right. As the International Court of Justice concluded unanimously in its advisory opinion on the (il)legality of the segregation wall, Israel is in breach of international law in continuing to occupy the Palestinian territories acquired by conquest, including not just the West Bank but also East Jerusalem. Furthermore the ICJ confirmed it is against international law for the occupying power to transfer its citizens into the Palestinian territories. This is why all the settlements are illegal and not "disputed". These are the basic facts, check the judgement for yourselves.

Michael Lonie

In August 1967 Israel offered to hand back to Egypt, Jordan, and Syria all the land it had captured in the Six-Day War except for East Jerusalem. In return Israel asked for negotiations, a peace treaty, and recognized borders (her "borders" of the time being nothing more than the 1949 Armistice lines, and unrecognized by the Arabs). The Arabs had started the war with the intention of destroying Israel and committing genocide on its Jewish inhabitants. So Israel's occupation of Judea, Samaria, and Gaza was not the cause of Arab enmity or Arab warmongering, but a result of that. The Arab response was the "Three No's of Khartoum", no recognition, no negotiations, no peace. When Sadat did make peace with Israel he got back every rood of land he wanted. Then other Muslims murdered him for that.

In all other cases the response to Israel's withdrawals by the Arabs have been increased attacks. As for the fence, it was built only after years of savage and vicious terrorism by the Palestinian Arabs against Israel. If there had been no terrorism there would have been no fence. Building it is an act of self-defense on Israel's part. I do believe there is something about self-defense in the UN Charter, or does that not apply to Jews, alone among the peoples of the Earth?

There is nothing Israel can do to bring about peace. The initiative is wholly on the side of the Muslims. If they want peace there will be peace. Decades of experience show that no matter how hard Israelis want peace they cannot bring it about. When they try, they are generally betrayed by Arab bad faith, such as in the Oslo Accords. As soon as Arafat took over he ramped up the terrorism, not reducing it as he promised.

The conflict is not over this or that bit of land. It is over whether or not Israel will exist at all. The Muslim side is determined on destruction and genocide. Siding with the Muslims means supporting those goals. Make your choice, but understand what you are doing, and what you will be if you choose to side with those whose goal is the genocide of the Jews.

London Calling

Michael Lonie

You read from a text that appears set in stone, a downward spiral to hell.

Whilst the points you make are valid, your conclusion of Checkmate is the blinded vision that today prevails.

I see no mention in your post as to the Land rape by Israel? or do you support such actions?

To assume that a compromise cannot be achieved and that peace cannot be achieved expresses to me that you have given up hope, when there is always a middle way.

If Israel make's a giant leap forward for mankind by improving the conditions in Gaza and negotiates a future for both Muslims and Jews, then Jihadism has no bullets for its pistol, even if they continue in their quest for death and destruction, at least the union of the Muslim and Jewish leaders will make the fight for peace stronger and Jihadism will lose favour around the Muslim world.

To do nothing is never an option
otherwise we shall all descend into hell together, therefore if you don’t have any solutions, then stay silent and let others search for a middle way.

With respect.

Ann

"If Israel make's [sic] a giant leap forward for mankind by improving the conditions in Gaza" - Lord H seems ignorant of the fact that Gaza is under Arab rule. It is also conducting an active war against Israel. Would he also claim that in 1943, it was Britain's responsibility to improve the conditions in Berlin?

London Calling

Anne

Britain was not next door to Berlin in 1943 and neither did it turn Berlin into a Ghetto and whilst we were celebrating the 1936 Olympics, three years later we were at War with Germany.

I don’t generally do backwards thinking Anne, you obviously have no solutions other than to grate the grater further.

Israel is Jacob and his descendants, the twelve tribes of Israel and as the lost tribes are scattered throughout the world, I would suggest you remember that, the following may educate you as to who has outgrown their shoes and who would be the first to reject the lost tribes on the basis of lack of hereditary paperwork.

Don’t hold your breath for an alternative for peace Anne, for it just may be your last.

God only knows where this will lead
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1210668648537&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Mike

Just prior to the visit of GWB to Israel to celebrate it's 60th, Prime Minister Ehud Olmert promised to build about 600 new housing units in the contentious West Bank settlements. Now, he can either have land or peace.......he can't have both!

Although this 'promise' was denied by his office, nevertheless it wasn't ruled out. Perhaps PM Olmert felt the need to shore up support from his fragile coalition, but it seems to me that nothing is going to change until the next US President is installed when hopefully the world will be led for the next four years by a President who will be an honest broker, and use whatever pressure is needed on either side to extract a permanent settlement.

In 'old English'....bang their bloody heads together'......afterall the blood has never dried since........when.

Dominic L-R

I concur heartily. I recently read an article in the Guardian commment section about the problems in Gaza. Miraculously, the writer did not mention Hamas once (Israel was mentioned 13 times). How is it possible for a journalist to write about the problems in Gaza without even mentioning Hamas? Bizarre.

Ann

"Britain was not next door to Berlin in 1943 and neither did it turn Berlin into a Ghetto"

Lord H seems to be under the bizarre delusion that Israel has turned Gaza into a ghetto. I wonder on which planet he buys his newspaper.

Ann

Mike is pushing the usual ignorant nonsense that the obstance to peace is land. He hasn't read the Hamas charter recently, that much is obvious. In fact, he has never read it. Land was not the obstacle to peace in 1948, 1967 and so on: the obstance is the existence of Israel, including Tel-Aviv. The Arabs say so. But antisemites pretend not to believe them.

Mike

On May 01, 1921 Jaffa erupted into rioting by the Arab inhabitants. Subsequently, on November 08, the British Commissioner submitted a report to the Colonial Secretary in which he said:

'The attitude of the responsible Zionists is not negligible, as it is one of the irritant causes of the present discontent. It arises perhaps from the habit of regardig Palestine as a deserted, derelict land, sparsely inhabited by a population without traditions of nationality, where political experiments may be launched without arousing local opposition. Such a conception is considerable at variance with the spirit of authorised Zionist policy as defined in the declared intentions of the Secretary of State and the local Government. Immigrants should be made to understand, that whatever their historical and religious claim, they are, afterall, seeking a home in a country at present overwhelmingly Arab, and that it behooves them to adopt a considerate attitude toward the people among whom they wish to live in peace and friendship.'

87 years later......what's new?

Terry Johnson

Al-Gaurdian's virulent anti-semitism lies in the overwhelmingly middle class make-up of it's writers and readers. As a child at school in commuter-belt Surrey in the early 1970s I was shocked at the amount of anti-Jewish "jokes" and comments that poured from the mouths of my classmates. I'm guessing the jokes were picked up from their suburban parents. At university I remember groups of radical , middle class students screaming "racist" at anyone questioning Asian immigration whilst calling anyone who didn't buy a round of drinks at the student bar a "bloody Jew".
Add this antisemitism to the Left's need for a new ally after the collapse of the Soviet Union and we have the new Left-Islamic axis. Add to that the appalling ignorance of history shown by some of the anti-Israel comments on this thread and in British society in general (thanks Al-BBC !) and you have the breeding ground for a modern day pogrom.
The Guardian Left are the new fascists .

Ronnie

Why is it that historians are not interviewed about musicality? The answer is that they don't understand the subject and no one would be interested. Why then should we be interested in a musicians's view of history when he doesn't undestand the subject and hasn't bothered to learn the facts?

Mike

Ronnie: We should understand, perhaps, the essential difference between Zionism and European colonialism in Asia and Africa.

The latter was essentially about exploiting the indigenous people as cheap labour while extracting natural resources for exhorbitant profit.....while Zionism wasn't about merely exploiting the Palestinian people, but was intended to disperse and dispossess them in the process.

The objective was to replace the indigenous population with a new settler community,..... to eradicate farmers, artisans and the town dwellers of Palestine and substitute an entirely new workforce composed of the settler population in their place.

It's no secret that the early Zionists obtained land from absentee Turkish landlords over the heads of the Palestinian peope, and hired Jews and only Jews as their labour force.

This seriously damaged the status of the rural population and led to a severe impoverishment of peasants and Bedouins. Thousands of peasant families were systematically evicted by the Zionists, destroying social and religious life by this process of colonisation. I question the morality of this as indeed so does Daniel Barenboim........an Israeli you should be proud of.