The betrayal of Lebanon

David Lindsay

Attack the United States from Lebanon? How, exactly? If you just mean Israel, then you should just say Isreal. Don't complicate matters by bringing America, or Britain, into it.

It is your neocon pals who are busily giving Islamists their own territories to run as statelets technically within, and at the expense of, larger entities, just as the IRA has been given parts of Northern Ireland.

Kosovo is one example, although the UDI there rather complicates matters. A better example is the Gaza Strip, which has been given over to Hamas as its state in all but name. Hezbollah can expect something similar in part of Lebanon very soon. Parts of Iraq face a similar future.

There will be plenty of others: in Chechnya, in Kashmir, in all sorts of places. Doubtless including several parts of Britain within one generation.

Osama Bin Laden's demands might be non-negotiable. But those of Hamas, or of Hezbollah, or of either the Sunni or the Shi'ite insurgents in Iraq, or of the Chechen or Kashmiri separatists, among many others, are anything but non-negotiable, any more than is the desire to govern parts of London or West Yorkshire in accordance with Sharia Law.

Turkey is already well on the way to becoming an entire country like that. The same is planned for Kosovo.

And in any case, the belief that the Provisional Army Council is the sovereign body throughout Ireland is in principle non-negotiable. But given enough instead, the people who hold that belief are not pressing it. The same will happen in the Islamic cases.

As in Northern Ireland, this is despicable and it will be disastrous in the long term. But it is true.

Hannah

The Islamist terror franchise will set up training camps wherever it can to attack the West. That is why the US has already been attacked with biggest ever act of mass terrorism via an operation planned out in Afghanistan.

Terrorists need time and space to coordinate themselves and of course any such opportunity in Lebanon would be most welcome to them and their supporters.

Based in Lebanonon, they would all the more easily suckle from the bosom of the terrorist mothership: Iran.

phil

I await with interest Mikes reaction to this article ,and to know what his friend fisk has to say about the disintegration of society there -He surely cant blame Israel for this.Meanwhile the inevitable confrontation with Iran looms larger by the day ,when will our government wake up?

John

Phil,

You're wrong. Fisk could blame the sun coming up in the morning on Israel.

BenSix

"Accordingly it has received next to no coverage in Britain, where as the citizenry so insightfully informed the world in 2006: ‘We are all Hezbollah now’."

Yes, I too believe that a few scattered extremists constitute the entirety of Britain. Good one, Melanie.

Kevin Dunn

Barry Rubin's version of the Spanish Civil War is what is colloquially known as a crock. The Spanish Government was rapidly deteriorating into Stalinism when the Nationalists revolted. Franco and the Nationalists were, by and large, not Fascists. They were conservatives who accepted Fascist help because they had no other. Franco actually proved a friend of democracy - he refused to let Hitler have Gibraltar and he refused to hand over Jews to the Nazis (It was much, much, better in World War II to be a Jew in Francoist Spain than in Vichy France). Further, had a Stalinist Government won in Spain, during the period of the Hitler-Stalin pact, 1939-41, they would probably have given Hitler all he asked for, including Gibraltar, giving Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy the Mediterranean including Israel. I know this is a off the thrust of your article but one gets tired of this constant misrepresentation of Spain. Thank Goodness Franco DID win the war! (And, there was NO connection between this and World War II, which was caused by Hitler invading Poland. I agree with all you say about Lebanon (I have been there) but the two cases are entirely different.

phil

John I think he already has -it used to rise in the west until 1948

Daniel360

LOL Phil. If a cyclone hit Lebanon, Fisk would blame Israel. If aliens invaded and ate Lebanese babies for breakfast, Fisk would blame Israel.

Israel is to blame for everything including everything before she even came into existence... especially everything and anything before she came into existence.

Welcome to Planet Fisk, Phil, will you be staying long?

Jordan

I love how absolutley useless the UN is indirectly portrayed here. I despise the UN and it's inability to do anything. From my understanding the UN was supposed to prevent the re-arming of Hezbollah... or rather disarm them, my hat is of to the UN, I can't wait to dismantle it...

max

Caroline Glick attempts to explain why Hizbullah refused to take over Lebanon after their successful coup.
"[it]is key not only for understanding Hizbullah but also for understanding Hamas, Fatah and the insurgency in Iraq."

A very good analysis IMHO.

http://www.carolineglick.com/e/2008/05/hizbullahs_power_play.asp

Daniel360

In fact, don't think we'll be hearing from Fisk tonight. He's probably too cowardly to come and face the music - and get hammered by us as usual.

Adam B.

Re: Fisk blaming Israel for all the wrold's ills, I remember a well educated guy at university who blamed Israel, in all seriousness, for Saddam Hussein's invasion of Kuwait. The knee jerk reaction to blame Israel for everything has been around for many years now.

Adam B.

Jordan, agree 100%. The UN always makes sure Israel complies with its obligations, but completely ignored Hizbollah's rearming. In addition, Hizbollah was also supposed to release the two soldiers who were kidnapped from inside Israel, Regev and Goldwasser. Not only have they not been released, but the sadistic Hizbollah won't even inform their families of their condition. The UN of course brings no pressure to bear on Hizbollah, and says nothing. But what else can you say about an organization which has Libya in charge of human rights and Zimbabwe in charge of economic development?!

phil

Daniel 360 not if I can help it -mike has taken my room and if hesbollah find him he could be hoping for a holiday in Netanyah.where the sun now rises in the east:)

Levy

But Israel would hardly cause a cyclone to hit Lebanon as the fall-out would doubtlessly hit Israel, at least the north, as well.

This is the dilemma re nuclear weapons. We would readily use them in Gaza, West Bank, Lebanon etc but the drawback is the side effect on Israel.

We must find some other way of resolving this important issue.

i kanaan

Do you honestly Believe Hezbollah wants to use Lebanon to attack the US? You guys should look at facts and history, and not just wrte articles based on fear on prejudice.

Adam B.

i kanaan, Hizbollah has murdered more Americans than any other terrorst organization, with the exception of Al-Qaeda.

George Steiner

Ms Phillips is rightfully angry. But Lebanon is finished as an independent state. Hezbollah will quickly consolidate de facto if not yet de jure. That should please you fellows.

As for Britain to do something? I has neither the will nor the inclination to do anything. In addition its natural and national sympathy lies with the Arabs.

If there is a regime change in Iran soon, then the threat and influence of Hezbollah and Syria will diminish by much.

M. J. Howell

Mr. Spectator. If you want your magazine to retain its reputation, you should not let Melanie Phillips write about the Middle East

field

You would have thought that being beaten half to death by a mob of crazed Islamists on the Pakistan-Afghan border might have slightly altered his world view. But no - Israel remains his all purpose blame magnet!

No doubt Mossad were behind the beating up.

Azr@el

Phares, Smith and Young are semi-delusional; Phares in particular must spend less time in front of his TV watching "The 300". The battle for Chouf and Aley were decisive and one sided, Hizb-e-Allah second line troops entered the fray on behalf of their Druze ally, Talal Arslan, later that day after heavy fighting the PSP was routed and surrendered. According to most accounts after a few of Jumblatt's chief lieutenants were taken prisoner, Jumblatt offered unconditional surrender and the handing over of all heavy and medium weapons , including 120mm mortars and 50mm antiaircraft cannons. The Lebanese army is now in control of the affected regions, but rumors are trickling out that Hizb-e-Allah's Druze allies still maintain a presence at the critical transport juncture of Niha, traditionally PSP territory.

Samer Nicolas

Hezbollah wants to turn Lebanon into Islamic Republic of Lebanon the same as Syria wants to do that. I think the only way to free Lebanon and the people of Lebanon is wiping Hezbollah off their existence. I don't think Lebanon wants some militia to defend it's border. If Hezbollah never existed, there will be no excuses from Israel to attack Lebanon. I think the people of Lebanon deserve some freedom. If United States and Britain really care about Lebanon, Hezbollah would have been disarmed with the help of the Lebanese and American army. But it looks like
those countries only operate for their advantages. And no one really cares about Lebanon. Hopefully Lebanese people will see freedom and changes in the future.

Mike

Phil: Below is my post of May 12 on the situation in Lebanon at that time:

'Once again you are putting forward a disagreement where none exists. I've said it before that I've always believed the presence of so many Palestinian refugees in Lebanon in 1974 was the catylyst for the Civil War of that time. I said it then (I was there remember), long before I ever heard of Robert Fisk.

The present flare-up in this tinder-box, is between the US supported Government of Prime Minister Fouad Siniora, backed by Druze leader Walid Jumblatt, and Sayed Hassan Nasrallah's Hizbollah backed by Iran and Syria. The street battles we saw in Beirut, and now in Tripoli, are between Shia and Sunni (what's new?)...the Shia supporting Iranian-armed Hizbollah and the Sunni, the Lebanese Government.

What we have is a state within a state, and the Lebanese Army is unable to sort it out simply because it is made up of Sunni and Shia personnel and must retain its impartiality.

Hizbollah's real enemy, of course, isn't the Lebanese Government but Israel.....that is why Hizbollah insists on maintaining its own cameras and communication systems at Beirut Airport. Meanwhile, the roads to the Airport are controlled not by the Lebanese, but by Hizbollah, effectively closing it down.

Lebanon still doesn't have an elected President.....the country is in crisis...yet again....and nobody has a solution.... least of all not by American meddling. No doubt it will play itself out.....over time'.

As of to-day (May 17) the Lebanese Government has abandoned (lost) its confrontation with Hizbollah and climbed down over its demand that Hizbollah dismantle it's 'secret' communications system at the Airport.

Lebanon is 'back to normal'.......the roads to the Airport are open, flights are being resumed, the restaurants have re-opened, traffic is on the move and no doubt Lebanese families will be flocking to their favourite places for a long lunch tomorrow, Sunday....and no doubt the sun will be shining.....happiness is!

That is until say the middle of next week when the killing of the recent past may well return.....another crisis...and so it goes on and on. What's new?.....and no one has an answer, least of all a solution....not even my dear friend Robert.

All I do know is that contrary to the recent speech by George W. Bush in the Knesset, Al-Qaida and Hamas are in the ascendency (my interpretation) and now Hizbollah has just won this domestic fight in Lebanon. Afghanistan, Iraq and Lebanon are 'hell on earth'.....and I'll take bets that one day next week Hamas will launch more rockets at Ashkelon or Siderot which they say will be in retaliation for something Israel has done, and Israel will retaliate for the launching of the rockets.......inevitably more innocent people on both sides will die.

And no doubt folk will continue to feast on the smearing and lying provoked by something Melanie Phillips has written......what's new?

YA

Azra@l: according to Lebanese media, result of Hz assault on Druze was new anti-Hz alliance between Jumblatt and Arslan, that happened just yesterday. One should expect that Druze, Lebanese Forces and others will start seeking actively for interational support. Hz are very mighty but even they can't keep all city under control. Even American army finds it difficut in Baghdad. Weapons are not problem, and Hz patrols are also vulnerable to IEDs, sniper fire and ambushes. Result will inevitably be, the creation of no-Hz zones in Lebanon. Maybe even "Beirut walls". People just won't agree to share future, state or street with Hz's "divine" cannibals. It is not over.

Roy

When the knitting starts unwinding from the tightly knit British media sweater . . . it appears they should start again . . . but how can they? Re-knitting would mean unwinding the whole damn thing and starting again?

Levy

Adam B.:
I have had exactly the same experience with well-educated people. No matter whether it's at uni, in the workplace, socially or otherwise, these fools all criticise Israel, while the more enlightened uneducated reserve their damnation for the West Bank Nazi refugees, the Gazan fascist farmers, the south Lebanon peasant junta etc.

We must try and educate the uneducated so that there are more educated people with our viewpoint. I see this as one of the main challenges of our time.

phil

Mike I always read with interest what you write and so I did again.until I reached the end and saw your insult to Mel-if you had substituted the word fisk I might have agreed with you although I would have probably said deluded rather than lied-Can you not see that the Arabs fight amongst themselves and slaughter one another regardless of the Israeli situation
.Only this week that lunatic from al aqaeda has decided his main focus is on Israel ,after of course always previously targeting America and the Saudis -Do you not realise that the real enemy of the Arabs lies within their own society and that Israel is a mere drop in the ocean -if the problem of Palestine was resolved little would change ,the focus would shift again and the killings would continue-nothing will change until there is a climate of goodwill out there in the wider world and if you read the postings on Johann Hari,s site in the independent you will see I am not holding my breath .

Dave Z

field, I find myself admiring the way you expressed your view of Fisk. What kind of masochist recovers from a near-death experience to compliment the ideology of his would-be murderers? Has Fisk created new bar-room gossip for psychiatrists like he has created a new verb for literary critics, i.e. "to fisk"? (See Nick Cohen's excellent book "What's Left".)

Mike

Phil: 'smear'....to make vicious and defamatory statements.......I've been a victim on these pages and so have you. In fact, on more than one occasion, you have felt the need to ask folk to desist from vilification and invective. To suggest that Melanie Phillips doesn't smear people is simply untrue.....and the emotional responses on these threads are often provoked by the manner in which she expresses herself in the blogs she initiates. That is why I feel the need to go off and breathe some fresh air from time to time.

I've already dealt with your question of Arab violence on each other, eg Sunni on Shia on another thread....not unlike Christian Catholic on Protestant etc etc......I have no knowledge of Jew on Jew violence.

Dave Z

Having said that, Field, I'll have to say that you rarely have anything particularly informative to say.

phil

field where is the reference to fisk being beaten up on the borders -I cant find it ?

field

Re Fisk - Here's a link - with some graphic images:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1699708.stm

Thanks for the comment Dave Z. May I say by return that your surname gives a clue to how people find themselves reacting to your posts :)

Mike

Phil: What you are looking for is in Robert Fisk's book,
'The Great War for Civilisation: The Conquest of the Middle East'. It's available at www.Amazon.co.uk fpr £6.99 plus p&p.

This is the book I recommended you should read some weeks ago......as I believe so should anyone with a serious interest in the Middle East. Hope this helps.

Mike

Phil: The attack on Robert Fisk was in the village of Kila Abdulla, close to the Afghan/Pakistan border, some 20 odd years after his first visit to Afghanistan when he covered the Russian occupation.

see:http://www.counterpunch.org/fiskbeaten.html

He closes the writing of his experience with the following:

'So I thought I should write about what happened to us in this fearful, silly, bloody, tiny incident. I feared other versions would produce a different narrative, of how a British journalist was "beaten up by a mob of Afghan refugees".

And of course, that's the point. The people who were assaulted were the Afghans, the scars inflicted by us -- by B-52s, not by them. And I'll say it again. If I was an Afghan refugee in Kila Abdullah, I would have done just what they did. I would have attacked Robert Fisk. Or any other Westerner I could find.'

Anyway, I suggest you read about this for yourself, and reach your own concusions on the humanity of this exceptionally brave journalist.

The full story of his ordeal starts on page 1075 of the book to which I referred in my last post.

Rob

Hey First Poster David
"Attack the United States from Lebanon? How?"
"Attack the United States from Afganistan? How?"
Where have you been the last 8 years?
As for Israel, perhaps the US should have abandoned the UK when they faced down fascism on their borders during WW2.

phil

thanks Mike (sincerely)
but the mans history goes before him and I would not believe him.but I am grateful for your help

Mike

field: Hopefully you will now understand that Robert Fisk wasn't 'beaten half to death by a mob of crazed Islamists', but by largely illiterate Afghan refugees traumatised by B-52 bombings, and horror stories of the Mazar prison massacre.

As for Fisk's 'world view'.....it is understandably conditioned by all the death and destruction he has seen close at hand as a war correspondent. He leaves nobody in any doubt that he hates war, armies and the weapons that kill often indiscriminately. If you are ever fortunate enough to attend any of his talks, you will possibly note that he hasn't entirely escaped the trauma himself. How could anyone having seen what he has seen over a long period emerge completely unscathed?

phil

thanks field I have read it and dint know about it -here is a quote from your thread" It doesn't excuse them for beating me up so badly but there was a real reason why they should hate Westerners so much" to me it just shows his muddled thinking -why should they attack a westerner who may well have been there to help them?he obviously was not an airman.violence is just a way of life and without questioning him just were ready to kill him -its thinking like that from him that makes it hard to believe anything he writes .

Andy Gill

"The people who were assaulted were the Afghans, the scars inflicted by us -- by B-52s, not by them. And I'll say it again. If I was an Afghan refugee in Kila Abdullah, I would have done just what they did. I would have attacked Robert Fisk. Or any other Westerner I could find.'

I wonder if Fisk would offer the same defence for an Egkishman who beat up a Muslim - any Muslim he could find - because of 52 fellow countrymen brutally killed and 700 injured in a day of suicide bombings in London.

Somehow I doubt it. In Fisk's patronizing world view, Muslims are backward barbarians who cannot be expected to know any better, while Westerners (like him) are pluralistic civilized chaps who can see the other fellow's point of view. This is what makes Fisk so sickening.

Mike

Phil: You're analysis is quite wrong, and only serves to highlight your predjudice against this journalist. Why don't you read the book, and then you will be qualified to judge.

Adam B.

Mike, was it Fisk's writings that led you to believe that suicide bombings deliberately directed against civilians are "legitimate"?

field

I think Andy Gill got it one.

There is a certain type - the sort who in former times may well have ended up a District Commissioner in some dessicated
and backward region of the Empire - who delights in patronising the natives. Essentially this sort of person is actually quite THICK and lacking in IMAGINATION. So it gratifies them to be surrounded by people who, because of their life-denying and barely literate culture, are even more thick and unimaginative than themselves. This sort of person can then feel superior and yet empathetic at the same time.

Fisk claims the people were "Afghan refugees traumatised by B-52 bombings". How does he know this? Did he have a polite conversation with them as they half beat him to death? Or did he invite them round for a tea and chat later?

Why does he expect such appalling behaviour from such people? No doubt there were a few people in Coventry who would have set about a German POW during the war, but I think they would have been in a very small minority. The unappealing truth is that a large number of the people in the North West Frontier region of Pakistan ARE crazed Islamists. They are extreme followers of Islam (the nice sort of people who add their own culturally specific twist of gang raping women from rival villages in retaliation for minor infractions of the tribal codes of honour). They must be crazed to try and beat to death someone they've never met before who is actually 100% on their side.

There's bullsh*t and then there's Grade 1 elephant bullsh*t. Let me put it this way: Fisk has a very large sh*t shovel.

Mike

Adam B: Once again you are putting words into my mouth in an attempt to smear. Of course I don't condone suicide bombings, indiscriminate rocket attacks, or any other atrocity (because that is what it they are), no more than I condone the use of cluster bombs, missiles, and the blowing-up of civilian homes while women and children weep.

What IS the matter with you? I stand by my earlier statement that the Zionist project, as conceived and executed in the 19th and early 20th century, was entirely unjustified and could reasoanbly be regarded by the inhabitants of Palestine as a very serious threat; the total domination by one ethnic group of all others in the Region. Some form of violent resistance was, therefore, justified. The illegitimacy of the Zionist project (that is what it was at that time...a project) was the major cause of all the terror and warfare that it aroused.

That is FACT. You can argue 'until the cows come home', and twist these words anyway you wish, dig deep into your pseudo-biblical arguments all you like.....it doesn't make a damn bit of difference to me, but sure as hell it does nothing for Israel and its future.

Ben Disraeli

Oh come off it, if you'd had your head stoved in with rocks by people with murderous intent, then you too would probably come to the conclusion - upon regaining consciousness - that it was all your fault, citing past instances by neither you nor even your country.
It's called brain damage. Fortunately for the patient, Fisk, he writes for the Independent so it goes unnoticed .

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

"..the total domination by one ethnic group of all others in the Region."(Mike).
"Domination" by one tiny Jewish state of the umpteen Arab/Muslim states in the area, including the exceedingly wealthy oil producers! Oh, of course, it's all part of that Jewish/Zionist world conspiracy. What a load of utter rubbish! This is the usual kind of claptrap employed by those who, through their deeply rooted prejudice, wish to deny to the Jewish people the right, to national liberation and self-determination in their homeland, that they so stridently demand for all other peoples.

MacZed

The fact that a Census has not been conducted in Lebanon since 1932 really comes back and bites Democracy on the @ss in the case of Hezbollah... Hezbollah wants the Presidency, make no mistake about that. And the strange part is - demographically, they probably (according to the original projection of confessional politics derived from census numbers and realities in 1932) have a huge case. The Shia may be the majority now, and the maronites - the minority. The reason law and order has broken down into Mafia Warfare is not due to a rivalry - it is due to Hassan Nasrallah's commitment to his dream of building a future through a common denominator of hatred of Israel, and the only way he can capitalize on the final wave of that dream, is to wrangle the apparatus of state, and hold sway over the military, which is apparently awaiting his order judging from last week's mayhem. Hezbollah, the Genuine Resistance Movement must become a Genuine Resistance State to fulfill Nasrallah's mission of taking Jerusalem.

MacZed

In 1992, after taking part in Lebanese politics (something he said Hezbollah would never do - you know, sort of like he is saying Hezbollah will not perform a coup) Nasrallah gave an interview documented by Nicholas Noe in "Voice of Hezbollah" (ch. 6) in which he says as a matter of fact, "In reality we were, and always will be, the party of resistance that [operates] from Lebanon in reaction to occupation and daily aggression...we shall, in fact, work to turn the whole of Lebanon into a country of resistance, and the state into a state of resistance....and the state itself, would be transformed into a resistance force." He proceeds to hold out the hand of Islam, which aims to serve the people, remove oppression and distress, socially, economically, and politically as a matter of faith, then states, "As for the [current Lebanese] regime, we believe that its main problem is its sectarian nature; this compels us all to find ways of eliminating this flaw...which has led in the past to civil war..."

field

Mike says:

"I stand by my earlier statement that the Zionist project, as conceived and executed in the 19th and early 20th century, was entirely unjustified and could reasoanbly be regarded by the inhabitants of Palestine as a very serious threat; the total domination by one ethnic group of all others in the Region. Some form of violent resistance was, therefore, justified. The illegitimacy of the Zionist project (that is what it was at that time...a project) was the major cause of all the terror and warfare that it aroused."

So, Mike, presumably you also support:

1. The beatings and violent assaults on Zimbabweans and other immigrants by South Africans.

2. The white rioters of Notting Hill in the late 1950s.

3. The legitimacy of Combat 18 in its murderous assaults against immigrants.

4. The dismantlement of the USA, Canada, Australia and New Zealand as illegitimate projects.

5. The return of the Sudetenland to Germany.

6. The violent overthrow of the Russian and Chinese states as they involve one ethnic group dominating all those around them.

7. Disapprove of the state of Pakistan, a religious project state, involving the inward migration of several million people.

Have I got that right?

Adam B.

Mike, unfortunately you put the words in your mouth yourself. I wrote to you on 13th May that:

“…you haven't responded about your obscene role as cheerleader to someone who says the 9/11 attacks and blowing up buses in Israel are "legitimate resistance…"

In direct response to this, you wrote:

“Palestinian resistance to their continued occupation is legitimate. They want their freedom.”

It was clear from the context what “resistance” meant. Do you retract that statement now? And why did you indeed support the obscenities written by this Mr Amiet? You see Mike, I think that’s really what you think.

MacZed

Within 6 months Hariri and Jumblatt will be assassinated and a new Census will reveal the need for a reconfiguration of the government positions and Hezbollah will take Lebanon with UN blessing, while the US Government calls it a second Gaza and the Muslims around the world shift toward Jihad against the West, starting in Jerusalem. The question is, how powerful will Hezbollah be, when it has the strength of a state diplomacy doing its dirty work, and proceeds to be paid off by Western powers to hold back its newest toy - the Lebanese Army? Muqtada Al Sadr in Iraq will then follow the Hezbollah path to victory with his Mahdi Army when the Democrat elect pulls down troop levels over the course of 2009. It is in this manner that Iran will gain prominence over Lebanon and Iraq...and dominance over the Shia Crescent.

Mike

Adam B: I don't give a damn what you think.......you're on a witch-hunt, and no matter what I say or explain....you will never accept it. You must have a helluva' lot of time to waste.

Mike

Adam B: As 'Mike (the original)' on May 5th, 2008 8:28am I wrote:

Pierre Amiet: Well, that piece should stir things up a bit! So much so I guess this thread will run and run.....just like all the Zionist friends of Melanie who will be after your blood. They'll come running, for sure, with all their invective, abuse, and anything else they can pick up to throw at you. But hang-in there my friend.

Israel hasn't a hope of surviving in the long-term until such time as these supporters of Israel recognise right from wrong, admit it amd move on. But this takes a high level of moral courage which, sadly, is missing from much of this debate.'

So.....what's your problem?

Adam B.

So, no comment then Mike?

If anyone's on a witch hunt, it's you, along with your pack of Fiskites, against the Jewish state.

And I thought you didn't "do" invective.

Mike

Adam B: You're goddam right I'm anti-Zionist.....with good reason. I may be outnumbered usually about 5-1 on this blog but I know I have world opinion on my side. You seem to forget that a good number of Jews are also anti-Zionist....stay tuned! You're right I don't 'do' invective.....but when I do it will be exclusively for folk like you....you 'aint seen 'nothin yet!

Mike

field: There is no need to set out a geography lesson. Let me give you a simple analogy.

Imagine you are at home one day going about your business, and I come along with a book in my hand, and a pistol in the other, and say to you 'I want you out of this house, because it belongs to me now, and what is in this book is all the proof I need'.

The reason I have a gun in my hand is because I fully expect you to resist me. At first you tell me to 'push-off' with a warning....I go away....get together with my mates who also want to take over other homes in the area, and one guy says 'No problem'....what we need is to terrify them so much that they'll run for their lives!'. Another says.....'good idea, mate.......let's blow up one or two of their houses......that should get 'em moving'
But you are made of sterner stuff, and the next time I enter your property, you've also got a gun in your hand.

You should know that the 'Right of Self-Defence' either of person or property is enshrined in law, but not only that it is enshrined as a moral imperative.

Pete Hoskin

Adam B & Mike: Just to say, be careful with the personal attacks against each other. Your comments have all been approved so far, but they're rapidly heading over the line. Try and keep things in the realm of good-natured debate.

Mike

Pete Hoskin: I'm happy you've noticed this unfortunate series of exchanges. For my part there won't be any further reprise.

Regrets.

Adam B.

Pete, thanks for your concern. However, I am merely pointing out that Mike addresses as "friend" a person who wrote the following: "Hamas, Hizboullah, al Quaida, etc. didn't exist for decennies after 1967.They are obviousely the product of Israeli state-terrorisme a quite legitimite self defence organizations" (sic). Mike urges this author to "hang in there" as the Zionists will be "after your blood." Mike claims he doesn't support terrorism, but then applauds when someone calls the actions of Al-Qaeda, Hamas and Hizbollah "legitimate." There is a clear discrepancy here, which Mike has not explained.

Derek Carline

On May 16 Melanie Phillips wrote the the most important global event this week was the attempted Hezbollah putsch in Lebanon. On 12 May there was an earthquake in China and currently over 40,000 people are said to have died. Perhaps Melanie Phillips missed this news.

field

Mike -

Noted you aren't prepared to state (a) which OTHER examples of people using violence to resisting the inflow of people from other parts of the world you approve of OR (b) which other territories you think should be returned to their formers owners or occupiers.

Your householder's analogy is of course completely false. If the analogy were not to be false it would run something like this:

You live in a street where down the road there is a house occupied by a family who have lived there for thousands of years. Suddenly some of their relatives start moving into the road. They buy up houses and in a couple of cases are given land by the local council to build on.

And you seem to think that this is enough to justify to go and burn down those houses and try to drive the people out.

The fact is that the Zionists bought their land or acquired it legally prior to the foundation of Israel. There followed a land war, just as we have had land wars all over the planet.

Peace will only follow after the Arabs locally and Muslims more generally give up the absolutist dream of wiping Israel and its Jews off the face of the earth.

Incidentally I've never queried the right of Arabs to resort to military force in this struggle - they have as much or as little right as any other people on this planet. But I have condemned their murderous targetting of non-combatants and
(where they exist) their genocidal ambitions. Both are immoral.

Mike

AdamB: Pete Hoskin's warning wasn't about the substance of what had been written, but the manner it which our views were being addressed. Hence my apology to him and his colleagues.

My reponse to Pierre Amiet was an acknowledgement of one of the strongest condemnations of Zionism that I've read on these pages. It wasn't meant to be a critique of what he had written as I felt he would have more than enough to deal with from those who are so diametrically opposed to his point of view. 'Hang in there, my friend' was simply a form of words to encourage him to withstand the expected onslaught......which, incidentally, has still to emerge.

Therefore I would think you, and others, would do far better to challenge him on his points of view directly rather than use his 'missile' as an attack on me.

Of course I don't condone the indiscriminate use of violence (ie where it impacts on civilians), by Hamas, Hizbollah Al-Qaida or the armed forces of Israel.

But we should not allow this 'red herring' to distract from the main issue....namely that the Palestininan resistance to the continud occupation of their lands is legally and morally legitimate. I would much prefer that this resistance found expression 'a la Gandhi' rather then the use of lethal weaponry.....but that is a another issue.

Mike

Derek Carline: And she had nothing to say on the Tibet/China issue either......too close to home!

Ann

Mike is spouting his usual nonsense, pretending (a) that there was no Jewish presence at all in Israel for 2000 years, i.e. the same lie that Hastings promulgates (one wonders, then, how at the same time Jews and Arabs could have 'lived happily together before Zionism', which is the other lie we hear a lot); (b) that the claim is based solely on 'a book', instead of on a solid historical connection to the land in which they are the only ones ever to have had a distinct culture and state, which is the real state of affairs.

World opinion is no proof of anything whatsoever. This is one pathetic straw argument.

And remember: anti-Zionism means objecting to the Jews, alone of all nations, having their own independent country. Singling them out in this way is called antisemitism.

Ann

Field, don't allow Mike to flimflam and bully you. Your examples are very well chosen, and the question you posed pertinent and incisive. No wonder, then, that instead of answering it, Mike is evading it completely and 'answering' with a complete non-sequitur.

phil

You all are forgetting one thing when you argue with Mike he only reads his history from the writers he enjoys reading and has no idea whatsoever of the other side of the story -he does not have a clue what Zionism is or the reasons behind it .nor even the thought processes of the people who believe in it so after many months of trying very hard to point him in an alternative direction ,I have given up -the difference between me and a number of others here as regards Mike is that I think he is deluded but not bad in his intentions .I dont regret my efforts but I have to admit failure .

Mike

field: Even if the Palestinian lands were, for the most part, acquired legally, we should understand, perhaps, the essential difference between Zionism and European colonialism in Asia and Africa.

The latter was essentially about exploiting the indigenous people as cheap labour while extracting natural resources for exhorbitant profit.....while Zionism wasn't about merely exploiting the Palestinian people, but was intended to disperse and dispossess them in the process.

The objective was to replace the indigenous population with a new settler community,..... to eradicate farmers, artisans and the town dwellers of Palestine and substitute an entirely new workforce composed of the settler population in their place.

It's no secret that the early Zionists obtained land from absentee Turkish landlords over the heads of the Palestinian peope, and hired Jews and only Jews as their labour force.

This seriously damaged the status of the rural population and led to a severe impoverishment of peasants and Bedouins. Thousands of peasant families were systematically evicted by the Zionists, destroying social and religious life by this process of colonisation. I question the morality of this as indeed I hope you do also.

Mike

Phil: Well at least I read!

You've often accused me of not knowing what Zionism is. Let me try being mindful that since I'm not a Jew I can have no understanding of how you feel about it, but I'd hazard a guess that Zionism means different things to different people. (I seem to recall writing about this somewhere in these distant pages). However, be that as it may, you will know (I hope) that in 1923 Jabotinsky wrote 'The Iron Wall'.....a benchmark essay for the entire Zionist movement in which he said....'the natives (remember this was in 1923!)....the natives will always struggle against the colonialists (in this case the Zionists)....and it is all the same whether they are cultured or uncultured. The Redskins fought with uncompromising fervour against both evil and good-hearted colonisers. The natives struggled because any kind of colonisation anywhere at any time is inadmissable to any native people. Any native people view their country as their national home, of which they will be complete masters....they will never allow a new master. So it is for the Arabs. (Suprised?).

This the best bit....'They have the precise psychology that we have'...he wrote. 'They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervour that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux upon his prairie'.

......It matters not what words we use to explain our colonisation (Zionism). Zionism has its own integral and inescapable meaning understood by every Jew AND BY EVERY ARAB. Zionism has only one goal. This is the nature of things....to change that nature is impossible. It has been necessary to carry on against the will of the Palestinian Arabs....and the same condition exists now.

Heady stuff....yes? Please don't ask me to try and explain what Zionism is again.

Happy reading!

field

Mike -

I don't actually believe what you are saying is true. Every objective account I have read accepts that Jews employed Arabs and their presence acted as an economic stimulus which led to a substantial number of Arabs to migrate to Palestine from what is now Gaza and Jordan.

However, even if what you say is true, why do you apply a double standard to Jews? No one else is being held to the impossibly high ethical standard you demand of them - not Americans, English, Australians, Japanese, Chinese, Russians, South Africans, Nigerians, Brazilians. ..No, only Jews are expected to achieve these highest standards. Everyone else you excuse.

What I object to is applying a double standard.

Mike

field: If you are asking me to understand that Israel doesn't always achieve the highest standards, and doesn't make mistakes from time to time, then this would truly be a revelation. It is precisely because people like Melanie Phillips and her supporters on these pages support Israel 'Right or Wrong' that so much criticism of Israel arises.

'Truth and Reconcilation' isn't a cliche......it can be made to work....but it takes a lot of courage from both sides.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians continue to make huge mistakes tactically and strategically, but I don't expect as much from them as I do from Israel......refugees living as they do don't have all that many options.

field

Mike -

YOU SAY:

"field: If you are asking me to understand that Israel doesn't always achieve the highest standards, and doesn't [sic] make mistakes from time to time, then this would truly be a revelation. It is precisely because people like Melanie Phillips and her supporters on these pages support Israel 'Right or Wrong' that so much criticism of Israel arises."

MY RESPONSE:

Why don't you spend some time criticising the supporters of China, including many in this country who seem to think it's a case of "China right or wrong". There were plenty out to greet the Dalai Lama with their libellous posters.

YOU SAY:

"'Truth and Reconcilation' isn't a cliche......it can be made to work....but it takes a lot of courage from both sides.

MY RESPONSE:

No. Doesn't require a lot of courage. It's very simple. One side has to stop threatening the other with elimination and genocide. If you think that side is the Israelis you are truly deluded. Once the Arab/Muslim side is prepared to accept the reality and continued existence of Israel, truth and reconciliation can follow naturally.

YOU SAY:

"Meanwhile, the Palestinians continue to make huge mistakes tactically and strategically, but I don't expect as much from them as I do from Israel......refugees living as they do don't have all that many options."

MY RESPONSE:

What lazy thinking. They can't all be "refugees" for God's sake. Some - in fact most - of them must have been living in Gaza and West Bank. If that's the quality of your analysis I'm not surprised you come up with such cranky conclusions.

Mike

field: I appreciate your point of view, and I'm not going to argue with you over a 'lazy' choice of words......I agree the use of the word 'refugees' in that context was sloppy. Perhaps 'an occupied people' or similar would have been better.

Melanie hasn't written about China/Tibet.

field

In a spirit of compromise, I'll admit the following is a fair point:

"Melanie hasn't written about China/Tibet."

Mike

field: Your compromise is generous......looking forward to meeting you on another thread.