Unparliamentary language

Ravi

The people of Gaza had Hamas blow up the border with Egypt NOT tear it down with their bare hands. This conflict is full of people who re-write history. I thought Galloway should have already been in trouble when he praised Hezbollah - stating that he recognised the praising and encouragement of a proscribed Terrorist group was an offence under anti-Terror legislation.

Alex Bensky

As it happens, I am a lawyer. At least in the US I don't think this would be actionable, if only because it didn't occur in an area under American jurisdiction. I doubt it would be in the UK, either, for a reason I revealed to the world several years ago:

http://www.yourish.com/archives/2005/june5-11_2005.html

My computer's video player is not working so I couldn't hear the Memri clip, but lt me guess that Galloway's remarks did not lead to a storm of disapproval.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Not a chance of any kind of action being taken against Galloway. Here, anything goes today, unless of course it's something against Muslims. Then there will be tr4ouble !

Edward Solomon

Outrageous. The man is a disgrace and should be summarily removed from office. He has disgraced himself and our parliamentary system by bringing himself into such disrepute.

Ann

The so-called 'Speaker' is too busy thinking about his expenses - and those of his wife.
We have become a banana republic, and no mistake.

Water

Wow...wow.

Water

Very enlightening thank you.

Joe Strummer

What a disgusting vile creature Ghalloway is. Whipping up emotion with cheap tawdry language. As someone who lives in Scotland, like everyone else up here, we are always glad he says he's Irish. Nobody wants anything to do with him in Scotland.

Dee Ranged

The dangerous idiot should be thrown in the brig.

Why does he hate us so?

Dee Ranged

The dangerous idiot should be thrown in the brig.

Why does he hate us so?

Adam B.

Galloway took part in a pro-Hizbollah rally in the summer of 2006, in Hyde Park. During the speeches, he said he would like to "glorify Hizbollah" and even openly boasted that he was breaking the law in so doing. This was said in front of hundreds of people. During the same rally, another speaker said that Israelis were "thieves" and that "they will all be punished." He labeled ALL Israelis in this manner. I made an official complaint to the police about both speeches. After several months, during which I had to make about twenty phone calls (no exaggeration) to ask what was happening with my complaint (I was told on several occasions that someone would get back to me, and they didn't, the complaint was passed from dept to dept etc), I was eventually contacted by a senior officer, who informed me that the CPS would not take the matter further, due to "lack of evidence." The officer was very argumentative, saying such ridiculous things as “the 7/7 bombers did what they did because they’re stupid.” If they are stupid, what does that make our intelligence services, who the bombers outwitted? It seems somewhat ridiculous that a “lack of evidence” was cited when the speech by Galloway was made in front of hundreds of witnesses. Galloway and others get away with inciting violence because our authorities are too gutless to do something about it. Remember the Danish cartoons “demonstration” in London? The authorities were going to ignore that as well until there was a public outcry. It’s a pitiful state of affairs.

George

I wonder how inspired the Mad Scot was when the thousands came pouring back not with food and petrol, but with consumer durables (TVs, videos, etc.)?

THX1138

Aren't you married to a lawyer? Why don't you ask him & launch a private prosecution?

I remember Chris Hitchens saying that he saw fascism in Galloways eyes I couldn't agree more.

john doe

How does he get away with all this? He is a pernicious menace, a mediocre homunculus, one of life's lesser manifestations and an enemy of truth and freedom. I know where Dante would have put him.

George

I have now listened to the entire rant. What a mendacious man he is.
He talks about the million gunmen from Brooklyn,NY, London, Paris and Moscow who have been occupying Palestinian lands for the last 60 years. I presume that he means the Israeli army. Somebody should tell him that just as many Israeli soldiers are descended from those who were thrown out of Cairo, Baghdad, Casablanca and Tripoli. He should also be reminded that his Hashemite Jordanian hosts have been occupying Palestinian lands since 1922.
He then goes on tell us that the Al-Aqsa mosque is in the hands of a foreign army. The last time I checked, the Waqf and the mob were in control of the mosque.
These are just two examples of the many lies that this nasty little man expounded in his hate filled speech. All the time that he continues to sit in the Commons it is a disgrace to that institution and also to his constituents. Hopefully they will have the sense to kick him out at the next election (if Gordon Brown ever plucks up the courage to call it!).

Graham Jones

Galloway gave a lecture in Cardiff some months ago; on the poster advertising it was "£15". I thought of going along thinking that that would be the amount I'd receive to listen to the old gasbag. But no, that was what you had to pay to go in! Must have been an empty hall surely; or if it wasn't then the police should have arrested everyone there because they were either budding terrorists or madmen.

Ann

Of course there is Fascism in his eyes. He would have fitted perfectly into the SD.
Yes, Melanie: please do urge your husband to bring a private prosecution. And if it bankrupts the mad mullah, so much the better.

Joshua

I wonder if what Galloway says here differs in any significant degree from what the vast majority of journalists at the Guardian, the Independent and the BBC actually think?

Water

Bensky is right not much chance of catching him in this country.

Peter A

Galloway continues to peddle his disgusting views on his regular late night spot on Talksport Radio.He is apparently there to provide a counterbalance to the so-called right-wing bias of other presenters.Anyone who really wants an insight into the depth of his arrogance and the extent of his bigotry should dip a ginger toe into that sewer.I hope the management of Talksport finally do the right thing and sack him for this latest outrage.

JJS

The real problem is not so much what Galloway says, but that he will remain unaccountable.

Ian C

Galloway is a flea on the arse of a camel, but while he is alive and kicking he is making us all very uncomfortable.

Rob

Galloway and Rev. Wright should go on a speaking tour together.
They can call it the Rabid Rebels Tour.

Alice Cripps

Adam B: if you have the evidence, why not bring a private prosecution?

YA

Galloway is elected representative of British people.
Face it.
There are many who just like all this - "armed struggle" aka blowing up Israeli bus passengers and children at discoteques, "breaking Israeli blockade" by invading Egypt, Jew-eating Mickey Mouses to educate 3-years olds, and so on.

Yepp. Nowhere else in free world one finds such feces in national parliament.

Your country, right or wrong.

Andy Gill

Every time I see Galloway I am reminded of his buttock-clenchingly embarrassing performance on Big Brother.

The podgy figure encased in a skin-tight red leotard, the bloated belly - how can anyone take this clown seriously?

barking toad

Incitement to murder is one thing.

But unless he holds up a sign suggesting, say, scientology's a cult, plod won't act.

Ann

What nonsense, YA. MPs are not immune from prosecution under UK law.

patricia

People, you won't see Mel and her hubby taking any action against Gallo. They know they would be eaten alive.

1) Gallo would open the Pandora's Box against Israel in public so wide and demolish your arguments so accurately, that nobody would ever take Mel, or the Israeli far right, seriously again.

2) We saw what happened the last time somebody tried to trip him up - the US Senate and the Daily Telegraph. Mel - however capable - knows in her heart that she would go the same way.

2)
If you take a close look at some of Mel's more hate filled rantings against Islam, you might think she too could be the victim of a similarly nasty little court action. We do have laws in this country, you know.

No, Mel, you just carry on preaching to the converted from the safety of this crappy site, the poor old 'caught in the crossfire' JC and worst of all the Daily Mail, hiding your venom as best you can, pointing fingers and sniping away from the bushes.

Suits you better.

Adam B.

Patricia, "we do have laws in this country you know", provide one example where you think the law has been violated on this site. One example, please.

M Clyde

'Mosely of Mesopotamia'! Brilliant!

The man is a disgrace, but he will soon be out of the House of Commons.

Or representative politics. His last ditch chance was the London Assembly where he failed to make 5%.

Dominic L-R

Patricia: two questions:
Why doesn't "Gallo" open the "Pandora's box" against Israel now? Why would he have to wait till Melanie Phillips took him on? What's stopping him?
And secondly, you refer to Mel's "hate filled rantings against Islam". As far as I can see, she has only ever spoken out against murderous, jihadi fundamentalist Islam. Indeed she goes out of her way to defend truly moderate muslims. Can you provide us with one quote from this blog or her articles which would justify your claim?

Commondog

Nothing more than a frustrated - very frustrated - poet.

How Patricia thinks that anyone would feel threatened by his mangled thought and mincing delivery - the William Topaz McGonagall of politics - says much of the desperation of her mission.

Straydingo

All I have are two words "Disgusting Man"

KateA

Patricia - your obsession with Melanie is unhealthy; hate-filled hysteria manifests, on the page, as pathetic envy. Envy of a superior intellect!

Where are the references to back up your interminable and vacuous accusations? You won't find any. Melanie sticks with facts.

Suggest:
a) see a good shrink
b) take a class in basic comprehension
c) try to get out more.

Ann

I would take issue with your second word, Straydingo.

Mac

“Dehumanising language” ? Guess who wrote this; "James Baker and Jimmy Carter are the kept creatures of the Arab world".
Yes the same person who wrote that the Palestinians are an "artificial" people who can be collectively punished for acts of terrorism by Islamist terrorists because they are "a terrorist population".
Yes the same Melanie Phillips whose venomous rants are frequently described as, "beyond the boundaries of civilised disagreement" & "nascent McCarthyism".

Ann

Well, Mac, they may well be so described by hysterical, ignorant left-wing lunatics and assorted mouth-foaming antisemites - and your point is?

Adam B.

Mac, where has Melanie said that the Palestinians "can be collectively punished"? I note you don't write that part in speech marks, so even you know that she never said that. And incidentally, the Palestinian Arabs exist as people, but the idea of "a Palestinian people" is completely artificial. Just like Patricia, you lefties make these accusations, but when asked for specifics, you can't produce them (or you make them up, as you have done here). Patricia, we're still waiting for a single example.

Mac

“mouth-foaming anti semites” ?

Try former editor of of Ha'aretz, and Jewish writers like Jonathan Freedland, Rabbi David Goldberg and Johann Hari. Phillips actually called a group of liberal Jews called Independent Jewish Voices, "Jews For Genocide", a group set up by eminent & respected people such as Harold Pinter,, Eric Hobsbawm, Sir Geoffrey Bindman, Mike Leigh, Stephen Fry & Zoë Wanamaker.

Phillips is an embarrassment to all but the most shameless Apologists of Israeli crimes.

Dominic L-R

Mac: you don't tell us what "Independent Jewish Voices" actually stand for or believe in. They may well be "eminent and respected" in their own fields, but that doesn't mean we should automatically respect their opinions on this matter. As I do not know what they have said on this matter, I cannot pass comment either way, but your 'appeal to authority' is a poor tactic and a lousy argument.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

I suggest that the "Indepedent Jewish Voices", regardless of their eminence and respectability, are a pathetic bunch of people who feel the need to persuade their non-Jewish friends and colleagues that they are the 'good' Jews, and not the 'bad' ones who, like the rest of us, support our brothers and sisters in the Land of Israel.

Ravi

I think Palestinians should receive 'collective punishment' - which requires you to hold a consensus on what 'collective punishment' means. And none of us has the same idea of what that means. Gazans send a suicide truck bomb to the Ezra crossing then don't Israel have the right to close it on grounds that it may be a conduit for bombs. In this way you can scream that Gaza is 'collectively punished' yet you cannot selectively open and close the crossing. Palestinians have 'collective responsibility" though. They elected Hamas and so they must collectively be affected by the World's reaction to that event. When will we protest at France's 'collective punishment' of Britain by stopping goods and people using the Channel Crossing by their strike. Where is the outrage at this 'collective punishment'? See, it depends on your definitions.

Mac

@Adam B, smearing an entire people as a “terrorist population” in an article, along with countless others, justifying Israeli collective punishments against Palestinians is ringing endorsement that only the blinkered cannot see. As for your semantic nonsense about Palestinians, Goebbels would be proud.

@ Dominic L-R, why don’t you look them up ? Here’s the Site:http://www.ijv.org.uk/

I wasn’t so much “appealing to authority” as warning against disreputables such as “Mad Mel” !

JJS

Funny that people like Mac give credence to the opinions of Jews only when those Jews are saying something anti-Jewish!

Adam B.

Mac, your assertion that what I wrote is like something Goebbels would write is extremely offensive, and could only come form the most hateful person. If you think it is "semantic nonsense", please inform me of the first mention in any text of "a Palestinian people" that you can find. Whilst you're at it, I would like to know in which article Melanie called the Palestinian Arabs "a terrorist population", and its context. And on the subject of "collective punishment", do you regard indiscriminate rocket attacks against civilian towns like Sderot and Ashkelon as "collective punishment"? If not, why not?

Mac

@Ben-Tsiyon, You’ll forgive me if I disagree with your baseless smears, and state that if you prefer to have your opinions in line with a notorious poison pen hack, it’s your bad luck. I guess I’m just very lucky that my own opinions happen to co-incidence with such an esteemed group of people.

@Ravi, Regardless of what you think , “collective punishment” is forbidden under
Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, and so in a crime in International Law. If the UK had been occupied by the Nazis during WW2, I don’t think you would be so cavalier about it.

@JJSContrary to your baseless & malicious assertion, what I give credence to is my own sense of injustice & abhorrence of cruelty.

Adam B.

Mac, I would also like to point out that the Jewish people you list as belonging to the so-called "Independent Jewish Voices" are people who at no time identify with the Jewish community, other than to attack Israel. This makes their accusations very hollow. They are indeed "independent", they usually have nothing to do with the wider Jewish community.

Dominic L-R

Mac: I have now checked out the website for Independent Jewish Voices. Clearly it is not quite the rabidly anti-semitic site that Melanie seems to suggest (although I’m sure she would have a few things to say about the frequent use of the term ‘occupation’). It does however show some slightly worrying statistics. For example, in the section ‘Do Palestinians want peace?’, a poll is quoted showing 75% of Hamas voters oppose the destruction of Israel. While it is welcome news that not all Hamas voters are as crazy as their leaders (and this is probably why the poll appears on the site), that still leaves 25% of Hamas voters who presumably are calling for the destruction of Israel. That’s an awful lot of people, and it’s inconvenient facts like these that many otherwise reasonable people are choosing to ignore.

Adam B.

Mac, if you have a sense of "injustice and cruelty", you must be most distressed by the tratment of minorities and women in the Islamic world, the 800,000 Jewish refugees from Arab lands in 1948, the stoning to death of homosexuals in Iran and public hangings of minors in that same country, the torture of political prisoners in Iran, Syria and the Palestinian territories, the persecution of Christians and political prisoners in North Korea, and the genocide taking place unhindered in Sudan.

Ann

"Johann Hari ... Harold Pinter, Eric Hobsbawm, Sir Geoffrey Bindman, Mike Leigh, Stephen Fry & Zoë Wanamaker" -

yep, all of them hysterical, ignorant left-wing lunatics. Thanks for making my case.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

One has to admire Mac's style of argument.

Start by calling Melanie names, attributing views to her that she never expressed (and may even have disclaimed), and taking other statments out of context.

When corrected, call the people correcting you names, accuse them of Nazi-like distortions and racism.

When corrected again, resume the name calling, and discount any inconvenient facts by saying "Of course YOU say that, but you would, and who can believe you when you side with (repeat string of insulting and inaccurate name calling) Melanie!. I hope you're proud of yourself for being (insert insult here)."

Mac, repetition is not a substitute for fact or argument.

JJS

mac, you accuse me of baseless and malicious assertions but if one looks at all your comments on this thread one sees a list of insults made by you about others. That clearly is OK. I have insulted no-one (not even you) though clearly my remarks have hit home.

Mac

@ Dominic L-R (&Adam B), you may have some issues about Independent Jewish Voices, but I think that you would agree that calling them “Jews for Genocide” is simply disgraceful, & it just one example of Phillip’s typical false & hysterical smearing of any and every critic of Israeli oppression against Palestinians, using it as a deliberate, nasty & cheap tactic of trying to silence anybody who speaks up for the Palestinians.

@Adam B, that was a very short list of the World’s problems & injustices, but did you never learn that two wrongs don’t make a right; even ten thousand wrongs don’t make one single wrong right.

@Ann, yes I think I have made your case alright, as in the case that I have caused you reveal your mentality for all to judge.

@ Ahad Ha'amoratzim, you are obviously a fantasist, and are suffering under the delusion that comprehension, reasoning & debating, are skills you possess. The quotes about Phillips were not by me, and I listed those who had made them. Nobody has corrected or rebuttal a single thing that I have written, and not allowing people to make false slurs & smears against me, by merely pointing this out, is not name calling.

@JJJ, you have the shameless front not only to falsely accuse me of insulting others, and also to actually state that you have not insulted me ! I remind you that you stated that I “only give credence to Jews” who are “anti-Jewish”; a totally false assumption that you deliberately made in order to try smear me as an anti-Semite. I have news for you, most people can see through this bogus, repulsive & odious standard tactic, which is always used by Apologists to smokescreen for Israeli crimes.

Adam B.

Mac, how on earth did you come to the conclusion that JJS called you an anti-semite? You go on about insults - you called me Goebbels in a previous post! An extremely ill-judged, shameful slur. And you still haven't answered my previous points: 1.Please inform me of the first mention in any text of "a Palestinian people" that you can find. 2. In which article did Melanie call the Palestinian Arabs "a terrorist population", (and what was the context)? 3.Do you regard indiscriminate rocket attacks against civilian towns like Sderot and Ashkelon as "collective punishment"? If not, why not? If you make accusations like this, you need to be able to back them up.

Ann

This is Mac's style of 'argument':

"I have caused you reveal [sic] your mentality for all to judge".

This man will launch personal attacks on anyone who objects to antisemitic lies and says so where relevant.

No further comment is needed.

Ravi

@Mac @Ravi, Regardless of what you think , “collective punishment” is forbidden under
Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, and so in a crime in International Law. so the French are commiting a crime by collectively punishing the UK and closing its crossings??? Like I said, it depends on what REALLY constitutes a 'collective punishment'. If the law had any teeth or what the Israelis was doing amounted to 'collective punishment' then it would have cited Israel by now and called them to court. Never happened! If the UK had been occupied by the Nazis during WW2, I don’t think you would be so cavalier about it. That's right Gruppen Fuhrer, I'd be forced to call you Sir. You will just have to keep day-dreaming!

phil

Its good that this column allows patricia and mac to say their piece ,otherwise we would not know what the demented are putting about ,but I am surprised so many of you answer them.you will not change their minds,only encourage them to write more garbage /I actualy have a good laugh at what they write and we need to on this otherwise serious thread /good to see you back Kate A

Adam B.

Phil, you're right. There is no reasoning with Patricia and Mac, because they don't actually want to know the truth. Th proof is in the way they write - they make their accusation, then when you try to engage with them, they don't reply to any queries put to them. Instead, they change the subject and make a new accusation. The reason I respond is not to convince them, but rather not to let their lies go unanswered so that other people reading the posts (who may not know much about the Middle East)are not just fed a diet of hateful garbage about Israel. It's important that lies are exposed.

phil

Adam B the reason they do not reply is because they cannot .nor do they wish to/their purpose is to spew garbage and upset you /Iwouldnt worry about who else reads their message ,reasonable people will think for themselves and the rest /well who cares.

Nick Kaplan

Phil, I completely agree that Mac and Patricia will never be convinced, but Adam B makes a good point; most of the public are far too easily lead to believe nonsense when it comes to Israel-Palestine (and many other issues), this is partly why so many are so easily led astray by the half-truths of the BBC’s bias reporting. It is important that those with knowledge should be vigilant and challenge the bile spewed out by people like Galloway Patricia and Mac. Keep up the good work Adam, Ravi, Ann, Ahad Ha'amoratzim, JJS, Dominic L-R and Melanie.

KMansfield

Ah yes, Free speech for me, but not for thee.

How this is incitement for murder?
I just don't even know what to say to you all, your statements are so far removed from reality.
Armed resistance against occupiers is not a crime. It's seen as heroic on one side in every case. When it's not your side, labeling them "terrorist" is an attempt to demonize, or delegitimize their struggle.
Besides Arafat, they have not had a good faith negotiator. They were baited and short shifted from the time they were coersed by britian to fight off the Ottomans. Take a look at the current maps, and the argument Isreal is only defending itself seems to melt away, if you consider who continues to gain. Isreal is doing archelogical digs inside the 67 borders, removing the history from the land, and it's not a joint project. Calling them just Arabs and refusing to recognize any of their true heritage and bulldozing or gentrifying them for jews is part of the ethnic cleansing.
what is one example that palestinians are running that kind of a program on Israeli's?
The political zionists used terror against the residents, and england. They were not defying occupation, they were the occupation.
After the death march, mass killings, and exile, the rest were shoved into those ghettos.

You all have lost the ability to see the situation with objectivitiy. Do you hate them so much that you can't imagine how you would feel if the situation reversed?
You are victims. Victims of endocrination. We all have a our own book of myths. there is only 2 options workable options.
Critical thinking, philospy, accepting responsiblity and stop blaming others, as interlocurs and the stronger, it's up to Israel.
Prisoners can't negotiate with their jailers.

Dominic L-R

K Mansfield: you have fallen into the classic trap of assuming that all "armed resistance against occupiers" are equivalent. Next you'll be quoting that old chestnut "one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter", a lazy piece of thinking that avoids the need to actually define what a terrorist is.
You say "Prisoners can't negotiate with their jailers". Quite true, and this analysis may be appropriate when considering, for example, South Africa under Apartheid - the indigenous black people really were prisoners: they did not have a vote, and did not have access to the same education or medical care as the Whites. Contrast this with the situation in Israel/Palestine: the Palestinians have a vote, they have political parties, education, medical care (many palestininas are actually treated in Israeli hospitals, something utterly unimaginable in South Africa under Apartheid). No-one in their right mind would claim the situation in Gaza is not bleak, but remember: the Palestinians have a vote and therefore a genuine chance to change things democratically and peacefully, something the Black South Africans never had. They do not have to resort to violence.

Adam B.

KMansfield:

1. Gaza is not “occupied.” Israel vacated it in 2005.
2. Deliberately targeting civilians, including children, with rockets and suicide bombers is not “armed resistance.” It is terrorism – the intention is to kill as many innocents as possible. This is considered a holy act by Hamas, Hizbollah and Islamic Jihad.
3. Britain did not “coerse” (sic) the Arabs to fight the Ottomans.
4. Please provide evidence that Israel is using archaeology to “remove history.” This is an utter lie. In fact, the Islamic authority over the Temple Mount in Jerusalem is destroying remains of the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem.
5. There is no ethnic cleansing in Israel, or the territories. The Arab population continues to grow rapidly in Israel, Gaza and Judea and Samaria. If this is “ethnic cleansing”, it’s not very effective. By contrast, real ethnic cleansing is being committed in Sudan, by an Arab government.
6. 800,000 Jews were forced to flee Arab lands in 1948, where they had lived under apartheid conditions as dhimmis (forced to live in restricted areas, confined to certain jobs, deprived of the same priviledges as their Arab neighbours, and suffering occasional pogroms).
7. You refer to “death marches.” Please provide evidence of this – what is your source? By contrast, Hamas and Hizbollah have as their openly stated goal the extermination of all Jewish people everywhere.
8. Jewish people are very aware of persecution, they have suffered it on a scale that no other people has endured for 3,000 years. (This is not to minimize the suffering of others).
9. Please learn how to spell.

Ann

"Isreal is doing archelogical digs inside the 67 borders, removing the history from the land"

LOL. Pure cloud-cuckoo land.
And the classic misspelling 'Isreal' tells the rest of the story.

"The political zionists used terror against the residents, and england. They were not defying occupation, they were the occupation"

Yees ... Those nasty Johnny-come-latelies, the pesky Jews, were trying to usurp the legal occupants, the English ... Whatever will those horrid Jews do next, one wonders?

YA

Could someone answer the question, - why reward might be collective (grants, investitions, inernational aid) but punishment can't?

Alexandrovich

And you can spell can you Adam? I guess you had a 'priviledged' education.

Adam B.

Mac, I guess you're still looking for that first mention of "a Palestinian people"? And Patricia's looking for that single example that has so far been so elusive. Just as I thought, no facts to back up their case.

Adam B.

Alexandrovich, it's a fair cop!

Mac

@Adam B, I stated that your previous attempt to delegitimise the Palestinians as a people was reminiscent of the Nazi propagandist Goebbels, who tried to delegitimise the Jews as an inferior people. Palestinians are Arabs who lived in Palestine before it was wiped off the map, just like Syrians are Arabs who live in Syria, Saudis are Arabs who live in Saudi Arabia, etc Surely not too difficult to understand ?

@Ann, I object to anti-Semitism as much as I object to bogus smearing of people as Anti –Semites.

@Ravi, are you serious comparing the French closing of it’s Ports during a strike, to the Israeli actions against the Palestinians ?!! I remind you again, from military actions, to cutting off of water, blocking of food/medicine/fuel. Just because International Law is only enforced when the World’s only Superpower (without whose backing/funding/support, the Israel State would collapse overnight) wants it to be enforced, doesn’t not mean that Israel is not committing collective punishments, as confirmed by the many condemnations for exactly this, from most Human Rights Organisation, including from the UN itself. Finally I think you missed the point about if the UK had been occupied during WW2, I meant you would not be so cavalier about it because the Nazis would have committed many collective punishment atrocities, just they did in the rest of occupied Europe, and therefore this vile immoral practise would be etched into the British consciousness as a totally unacceptable inhuman barbarity. (Can’t believe that I really needed to spell it out.)

@phil, so you think it’s a gracious privilege that people who hold different opinions to yours are allowed to express them. I think that illustrates the true nature of your self-righteous self-delusion, so the laugh is really on you.

@Nick Kaplan, you would do yourself some good if you ventured out of your paranoid fantasy world, and bravely look at the real world honestly; and yes you will find that the BBC have a bias, but it’s a pro-Israeli bias, a finding which has been confirmed by many studies.

@Dominic L-R, so you are the God like rightful judge of determining which armed resistance against occupation is valid, and which is not ? Let me guess, the actions of the Irgun & the Hanagah were & are ok by you ? Actions that included killing over 200 Jewish immigrants by blowing up and sinking the immigrant ship Patria, killing countless Arabs by bombing their markets, blowing up the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, (an action that murdered 28 Britons, 41 Arabs, 17 Jews and 5 others), not to mentioned hanging any captured British soldier in the olive groves. You also make disingenuous comparisons to Apartheid South Africa to put a positive spin on the discrimination against “Israeli Arabs”; despite being more than 20% of the population, they are discriminated in a massive variety of areas; no Arab sits in cabinet despite them being 20% of the population; no Arab holds any high position in the Army; they are discriminated in matters of housing as they are prohibited by law from living in many “Jewish only” areas, etc, etc

Dominic L-R

Mac: Good grief, I certainly don't think of myself as some 'God-like' arbitrator on armed resistance. These things are immensely complex and I would tiptoe in with great caution. I only wanted to question the kind of uncritical defence of any armed resistance, as being somehow 'heroic', and the tendency towards moral relativism (one man's terrorist etc..).
As for Gaza, clearly huge discrimination does exist, but as I said, the Palestinians do have a vote (something you sidestep) - do you really think the kind of violence perpetrated by Hamas is justified and is their only hope?

Adam B.

Mac, I NEVER said that the Palestinian Arabs are somehow "inferior" and this demonstrates that you don't read carefully, nor are you capable of nuanced thinking. The Palestinian Arabs have never existed as a separate identity, until 1967, when it became useful to invent Paelstinian nationalism to use against Israel. Palestinian nationalism did not exist prior to the establishment of the state of Israel in 1948 (Arab nationalism did however exist), and it did not exist when Jordan occupied what is called the West Bank and Egypt occupied Gaza between 1948 and 1967. I note you haven't produced any evidence of any reference to a Palestinian people, because the concept simply did not exist prior to the six day war. Your comparison with Syria is spurious, as Syria did historically exist. The term "Palestinian" referred to both Jews and Arabs prior to the establishment of Israel. Palestine was never a country - please look at a history book. this is NOT to say that the Palestinian Arabs are somehow "inferior". By contrast, Goebbels dehumanized the Jews in order to pave the way for their extermination. Your comparison is simple minded and odious. Surely not too difficult to understand? I also note that you haven't responded to my other points, so for the third time, I'd like to ask you: 1.Please inform me of the first mention in any text of "a Palestinian people" that you can find. 2. In which article did Melanie call the Palestinian Arabs "a terrorist population", (and what was the context)? 3.Do you regard indiscriminate rocket attacks against civilian towns like Sderot and Ashkelon as "collective punishment"? If not, why not?

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Dominic L-R, like dear Phil, you're far too polite in responding to people like Mac. It's a pointless waste of time to engage in exchanges with them. It doesn't matter how many times you and others successfully counter the barrage of vituperative statement that they put out, they'll still come back with more, because they are disproportionately (a term so frequently used against Israel)obsessed with this particular matter, so much so that it gives the lie to their denials of prejudice. I encountered people like these on a daily basis during my senior schooldays more than 60 years ago, when the British were ruling the roost in 'Palestine'. The lyrics have distinctly changed, but the tune remains the same.

Michael O'Connor

If ever there was a knuckle-dragger, George is it. I saw him on Utube the other day in which he hectored and bullied members of the public on the subject of the Holocaust and the effects of immigration in Britain. Who elects such uncouth yobs to parliament?

David M

Galloway came very close to being lynched by the very people whose cause he's championed. This was some time ago when an angry mob of Islamic extremists surrounded him and hoped to carry out a lynching since they claimed Galloway was guilty of trying to mix democracy with Islam. It was the U.K. Police that prevented the lynching and, naturally, Galloway thanked them and expressed relief. Melanie was highly amused at the time and made reference to the incident on her site. But you ask yourself whether maybe the British Police should have just let the radicals get on with it. I mean, this man has clearly chosen which side he's on and made it manifestly clear he supports radical Islam on a number of occasions via his conduct. The sad thing about it is those Britons who do fawn and cringe to fanatics always seem to end up either being kidnapped or shunned. It was the same thing with that young girl who supported the Palestinian cause and then winded up being kidnapped before she fled to the safety of Israel. I often think we should let these people lie in the bed they make for themselves and just get on with it.

Mac

@ Adam B, Ironic that you mention “nuanced thinking”, but fail to see that your repeated attempts to deny the Palestinian people a national identity, is a pernicious form of delegitimisation, very much like the various Nazi attempts to delegitimise the Jewish people; the motivations & intended results may be different, but the method is exactly the same The term “Palestinian Arabs” in itself belies the fraud in your argument; Arabs have been living in an area called Palestine for aeons, and I suggest that you follow your own advice & look up some history books, and you will learn that the Greek historian Herodotus, (5th century BCE), wrote about Palaistinê (Παλαιστίνη), you will learn that even as early as the 7th century, the Arabic word Filastin was in common useage to describe the people living in the area. I also suggest that you open any Atlas printed before 1948, and you will discover a Country called “Palestine”, which has now vanished, literally wiped off the map ! At least you acknowledge that Syrian Arabs are allowed to call themselves Syrians, but what do you think about Kuwaitis ? As to the Phillips quote, it was quoted by Johann Hari of the Independent, and must be true otherwise Phillips would have asked her lawyer hubby to sue him, but I really haven’t got the stomach to search through her nauseating articles to find it for you. (Apparently she also called the Palestinians “an artificial people”, so it seems that her disgraceful & ugly propaganda may have effected you). As to your final question, I like most people will condemn any attacks on civilians, but to compare the collective punishments instigated, planned & carried out by a State, with a State’s power & resources to ensure that it’s actions are effective, to the (largely ineffectual) firing of rockets by groups of poorly equipped & desperate militants, is like comparing chalk to cheese.

@ Ben-Tsiyon, from your comments you are clearly a person who has spent a lifetime trying to justify the unjustifiable, and have obviously failed. So now your best tactic is to try & stop people from honestly discussing the string of major human rights abuses that lie at the heart of one of the World’s most destabilising & corrosive problems. But at least you let it slip that just 60 years ago, a place called “Palestine” existed; I hope Adam B is taking note !

@Michael O'Connor, If GG is a knuckle-dragger, what does that make a certain US Senate Committee, several expensive Newspaper lawyers, and a certain Oona King ? In fact what does that make you, especially when you try to rubbish him on a pro-Israeli Hack's Site by complaining that he is rather forceful & curt with anybody who tries to belittle the Holocaust, or indeed even begin to try to make any anti-Semitic remarks ?! (BTW GG has been elected to Parliament, not just once, not just twice, but three times, with the last being a record overturning of a “safe seat”, so the answer to your question is that many people not only vote for GG, but do it repeatedly so despite all the media smearing campaigns).

@David M, so you think that people who don’t share your politics should not be protected by the Law ? And you revel in mentioning Phillips amusement that a member of Parliament, (along with his daughter), experienced a very frightening & dangerous situation. Thanks for confirming again how vile Phillips, & her supporters, really are.

Dominic L-R

Mac: You tell us Palestine was a country before 1948, and has now vanished off the map. Now I'm confused: I was under the impression that Palestine has only ever denoted a geographical area that has throughout history been under the administration of various countries. If, as you say, it was a country in its own right, perhaps you could enlighten us a little more - when was this? For how long? Was a monarchy or a republic? If so, could you tell us the name of the rulers?
As you seem so sure of this, perhaps you could enlighten us all on the true history of the country of Palestine...

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

For Mac's information, I did not "let slip that a place called "Palestine" existed before 1948". I too used quotation marks before/after the name, which was the invention of the Roman Emperor, Hadrian. When the Romans finally managed to put down the last Jewish rebellion against their rule (after my ancestors in the Land of Israel had given them a particularly bloody nose), as well as disposessing most of them, Hadrian thought he could break the bond between the Jewish people and our land by renaming it 'Palestina', after the Philistines who once occupied a narrow coastal strip,long before the Romans came. He also renamed Jerusalem as 'Aeolia Capitolina' and forbade any Jewish presence there. It didn't work! Our religion, culture, traditions, national identity went with us into exile and were preserved despite the loss of our homeland, and we never waived or renounced our claim and right to return to that land. This, of course, has proved to be inconvenient, even to those like Mac, who are far removed from and have no connection with that land.
Yes, I have spent a good part of my lifetime, from my younger days until the present, not "in trying to justify" anything, but in battling with bigots intent upon demonizing, delegitimizing and discriminating against my people, whether inside or outside the Land of Israel.

Adam B.

Mac, oh dear. Yours is the classic example of someone writing with great authority about a subject they know nothing about. Herodotus? Well done for looking that one up on Wikipedia. The problem is that the term refers not to the people who now call themselves "Palestinian". The "Palestinians" of today are Arabs. The Arabs came to the area many centuries later, with the Arab conquests. The Philistines no longer exist. And the Arabs have lived there for aeons have they? Well it may interest you that the Jews lived there for many centuries prior to the arrival of the Arabs. You have missed the fundamental point: there was no "Palestinian Arab" identity before the 1960's. No calls for "independence" when Egypt and Jordan occupied Gaza and Judea and Samaria respectively between 1948 and 1967. Palestine was NOT a country before 1948, it was a British mandate. Before that, it was a province of the Ottoman Empire (with this particular province itself divided into several separate administrative areas). At no time in history has there EVER BEEN a country called "Palestine." You really need a history lesson!

Mac

@Dominic L-R/Ben-Tsiyon/Adam B
You go on about "no Palestinian country” & "no Palestinian national identity”, in the obvious oblivion of how crass & bogus this line of argument is. Not only are these very recent concepts, but for centuries, Arabs throughout the Middle East & North Africa saw themselves as part of a single united Arab homeland, and in fact the first notion of a specific Palestinian national conscience , in the modern sense, originated during the revolts in the 19th Century by the Palestinian Arabs against Egyptian & Ottoman rule. Once established, it grew stronger largely as a response to the challenged posed by Zionism. However this is not the issue here, which is that from the time of the, Arab conquests, some time in the 7th Century AD, the Arabs have been the dominate population, dwarfing all other groups combined. So to claim that a certain area has to be cleared to make way for the alleged descendants of people who may or may not have lived their 2000 years ago, it simply preposterous ! Imagine the chaos if other people try to do the same; for instance how would Turkey react if descendants of the 1.7 million Greeks who were expelled from their ancestral homes in Easter Turkey tried to claimed the right to return ? This actually happen in 1922, in living memory, nevermind 2000 years ago !

@Adam B, thanks for the offer, but I really do not need any history lessons from you. Rather as you seem to be only interested in the irrelevant, and frankly distasteful issues of “original” races, I would draw your attention a new book by Prof. Shlomo Sand, called Matai ve’ech humtza ha’am hayehudi? (When and How Were the Jewish People Invented?; He researches lead him to conclude that the story of the Jews as a wandering and self-isolating nation of exiles from antiquity is nothing but “national mythology”, and that the present-day Palestinians are far more likely the descendants of the ancient Semitic people in Judea/ Canaan than the current predominantly Khazarian-origin Ashkenazi populace to which he & a large proportion of modern Israelis belong to. He argues that the Judaized Khazars constituted the main origins of the Jewish communities in Eastern Europe, speaking Yiddish, a language which is etymologically unrelated either to ancient Hebrew, or even to the language spoken by the very old Jewish community that existed in Germany during even before the Middle Ages. Further I would also direct you to various DNA studies, such the extensive one by Ellen Levy-Coffman`s in 2005, ("A mosaic of people: the Jewish story and a reassessment of the DNA evidence") which supports Sand’s book’s claims, as it concluded; "Jewish ancestry reflects a mosaic of genetic sources. While earlier studies focused on the Middle Eastern component of Jewish DNA, new research has revealed that both Europeans and Central Asians also made significant contributions to Jewish ancestry. Moreover, while the DNA studies have confirmed the close genetic interrelatedness of many Jewish communities, they have also confirmed what many suspected all along: Jews do not constitute a single group distinct from all others. Rather, modern Jews exhibit a diversity of genetic profiles, some reflective of their Semitic/Mediterranean ancestry, but others suggesting an origin in European and Central Asian groups. The blending of European, Semitic, Central Asian and Mediterranean heritage over the centuries has led to today’s Jewish populations."

Now that your race fetish has been addressed, I would point other obvious flaws in your “right to return”; the archaeological evidence (as well as Biblical) show that the Jews were far from the original settlers, so the Arabs have as much right to claim that they are the descendants of the people who built Jericho etc. As to the religious justification, this is belied by the fact that the pioneers of Zionism were mostly atheists, and in fact the founder of modern Zionism ( Herzl) for a time actually advocated Cyprus as the new “Jewish Homeland” !

Adam B.

Mac, I'm afraid you are simply off the chart. You quote revisionist "historians" like they speak the gospel truth, whilst ignoring the bulk of work by mainstream historians and experts on the region. There is simply no engaging with someone who believes anything told to him ,as long as it is against the Jews.

Mac

@Adam B, not sure if you are deliberately being obtuse, or if the debate is really going over your head; I stated quite specifically that the historical factors are frankly “irrelevant” in so much as that the issue at the heart of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict, is simply the injustice of the ludicrous claim by a group of people, that they have a “right” to evict & occupy the land of other people who have been living there for generations. The absurd nature of this claim is not only in the complete chaos & wars it would generate if other groups of people tried to do the same, but also in the fact that most Jews chose not to live in Israel, despite being free to do so, and are in fact constantly being subjected to bribes, & even threats in some cases, by the Israeli Government. Most Jews realise that they have no moral right to claim a land belonging to others, and despite the propaganda of a safe “homeland for the Jews”, and exaggerations of anti-Semitism in other countries, (which does of course exist), the fact is that Israel is one of the most dangerous places for Jews to live. Only a certain type of deranged fanatic can rationalise the injustice involved in the “right” of a person whose background for generations has been in New York, Russia, Europe, etc, has over the legitimate right of people who have actually been living in the areas for centuries.

You will have noticed that I have made a point of only quoting & sourcing Jewish critics, this is because of the inevitable & loathsome smearing of everybody else who dares to criticise, as being anti-Semitic. However even these brave Jewish voices that speak out, are branded as “self-hating” or as the odiously hysterical Melanie Phillips labels them as “Jews for Genocide” !! Effectively absolutely all contrary points of views are discredited before they are made, absolutely all criticism is invalid or prohibited, a truly totalitarian position used by the very same people who also like to try to claim that Israel “is the only Democracy in the Middle East” ! It is therefore no surprise that you end by making the false assumption, & actual disgraceful & cheap personal smear, that I am “someone who believes anything told to him, as long as it is against the Jews”. The fact that you have failed to engage on the substantive points of issue here, and have sought to disguise your failings, is very embarrassingly obvious, and attests to the fraudulent nature of your argument.

alexandrovich

Bravo Mac. The tiresome nature of Adam's posts, along with the rest of Mel's little helpers, is highlighted by the cliched nature of their insults. All rounded off with the usual flourish of anti-you know what.

Wilf

George Galloway.......can't stand 'im.