Change we can all believe in

Howard

Let us live in the real world. Obama is involved in an election campaign and will say what is right to get elected. That is what politicians do Melanie. You really need to stop seeing the world through your on prism. His stance will change when and if he gets to the White House.

What the US and the world needs is fundamental change from Bush/Cheney. This guy may well provide it.

Mladen Andrijasevic

Obama's current position on Israel reminded me of this quote from George Orwell's 1984:

The speech had been proceeding for perhaps twenty minutes when a messenger hurried on to the platform and a scrap of paper was slipped into the speaker's hand. He unrolled and read it without pausing in his speech. Nothing altered in his voice or manner, or in the content of what he was saying, but suddenly the names were different. Without words said, a wave of understanding rippled through the crowd. Oceania was at war with Eastasia! The next moment there was a tremendous commotion. The banners and posters with which the square was decorated were all wrong! Quite half of them had the wrong faces on them. It was sabotage! The agents of Goldstein had been at work! There was a riotous interlude while posters were ripped from the walls, banners torn to shreds and trampled underfoot. The Spies performed prodigies of activity in clambering over the rooftops and cutting the streamers that fluttered from the chimneys. But within two or three minutes it was all over. The orator, still gripping the neck of the microphone, his shoulders hunched forward, his free hand clawing at the air, had gone straight on with his speech. One minute more, and the feral roars of rage were again bursting from the crowd. The Hate continued exactly as before, except that the target had been changed.

The thing that impressed Winston in looking back was that the speaker had switched from one line to the other actually in midsentence, not only without a pause, but without even breaking the syntax.

Part 2, Chapter 9

http://www.george-orwell.org/1984/16.html

Beedeekay

I would not trust Obama one iota. I am urging all my American friends to vote for McCain.

THX1138

Get used to it Mel he's going to be President.

manners

What I found extraordinary about the speech (I heard it live on the radio) was the extent to which he promised to make US policy the servant of and subservient to Israel.

The usual unpleasant little twists from Melanie I note: His number one fans in the Middle East, Hamas; that man of peace, Mahmood Abbas.

Can't you just feel the hatred?

Harvey

Oh dear! Slight danger that naughty boy Obama may not do absolutely everything he's told by AIPAC (well known device for suppressing dissent) etc. Can't have that! Toys flying out of another pram it seems..

J Soininen

Obama's New Speak tutorial: "This is not the Tony Rezko I knew, this is not the Samantha Power I knew, this is not the Rev Wright I knew, this is not the Father Pfleger I knew, this is not the Williams Ayer I knew..."
Obama's New Speak exercise: "This is not the ......... I knew."
Wellcome to obamian post-modern flip-flop reality!
Oops! Nearly forgot: "Jerusalem is not the Jerusalem I knew".

MartinW

I have long been suspicious of Barack Hussein Obama, as there has seemed no consistency in his infinitely flexible political stance. He habitually tailors his message according to the audience, and this latest 'doublespeak' over Jerusalem is one of the worst examples to date. Don't expect the BBC to mention his blatant cynicism - to them, he's up there with their demi-god Nelson Mandela, and can do no wrong.

Labourer

So the whole issue of an Obama candidacy is to be viewed exclusively through the prism of 'Is it good for Israel'? Perhaps Americans are concerned with a few other political issues - you know, minor ones like the economy, education, law and order, the environment. Does that really make them 'nuts'?

I'm by no means an Obama supporter, but wanted to comment as the ethnic self-interest underpinning this blog entry is truly remarkable. I'd expect it in the Jewish press - where it would be morally appropriate - but not on a blog hosted by a general-interest conservative publication.

Charles

Perhaps you should be more grateful that Obama has made the commitments that he has in support of Israel. He came a long way with, apparently, a very much more ambivalent position. That may tell you something about Obama's sincerity but it should certainly tell you something about the level of support for Israel in the US, ie. it may no longer be what it was. Don't blame Obama for that, blame the neocons. Obama may be the man who can help put the damage right. So for his AIPAC statements he should praised, not buried.

Morgan Rigg

Some of us Americans are completely nuts, sad as to say. It all depends on where one's priorities lay, simple as that.

Those whose priorities lay in tripe believe in Obama's change, while others whose priorities lay in the issues that genuinely affect us all don't buy into Obama's talk.

Robin

Obama worries me greatly. He may well be a pleasant individual, but his politics and statements that have emerged thus far frighten the pants off me.

If I were an American, I'd be voting for McCain.

Jan

When, apart from the ‘entertainment industry’, all else in western civilisation has been ‘debunked’ it can surely come as little surprise that the mass media will be enraptured by a pretty boy with a great voice. His aim, or rather the aim of those who control him, is simply to get elected so that the state trough can be passed on. By the magic of political cubism he will present one image from many different viewpoints. He will therefore say anything to anyone and count on the infatuation and poor memory of his listeners.

Let us hope the ordinary US voter still has enough sense to distinguish entertainment from deadly global politics.

Geoff Miller

I have a feeling that the Americans will vote for him, just like the Spanish voted socialist when the going got tough after the Madrid bombings.

His Presidency will be a prelude to a withdrawal from the fight against militant Islam - a sort of "rapture" as the worlds strongest Christian nation leaves the world scene and opens the door to Islamic expansion.

Perhaps its what is needed though to make Europe and other non Islamic nations face up to the threat without having America to hide behind - and blame!

Marwan

Obama appears to be the quintessential 21st century western politician ; all surface and no substance. Still he may surprise. At his nomination, the greatest american president, Lincoln, was called an imbecile and "the original gorilla" by his own party.Perhaps Obama will develop some principle when the war with iran kicks off.

Neil Turner

I suggest Obama listens to Zechariah. History shows how any nation that meddles with Jerusalem comes unstuck. Check out for example the decline of the British Empire from 1947 onwards..... ?

"And it shall happen in that day that I will make Jerusalem A VERY HEAVY STONE for all peoples; all who would heave it away will surely be cut in pieces,though all the nations of the earth are gathered against it."And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem." - Zechariah 12

Ann

This man has NO qualifications for the job. He has done NOTHING of any consequence in his life. And of course, despite the BBC's non-stop lies on this point, he did NOT vote against the Iraq war because he was NOT A SENATOR at the time.
His ONLY 'qualification' is that he is partly black (and partly Arab, and all anti-American).

Ann

"What the US and the world needs is fundamental change from Bush/Cheney"

Yes, those 'racists' who appointed Powell and Rice.
What nonsense you do talk.

david skinner

Laborour said
“So the whole issue of an Obama candidacy is to be viewed exclusively through the prism of 'Is it good for Israel'?…. (I) wanted to comment as the ethnic self-interest underpinning this blog entry is truly remarkable.”

Yes, Labourer, there are other issues but I sense that ethnicity and race will also be used by this consummate artist to mix, match and jumble truth with lies.

http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/2008/06/05/barack-obama-wrests-pro-abortion-pro-gay-standard-of-democratic-party-from-hillary-clinton/

http://www.anglican-mainstream.net/2008/05/23/barak-obama-on-abortion/

Ann

"Get used to it Mel he's going to be President"

Yes, the usual crystal ball nonsense from Mr Numberplate. And no comma in sight.

Ron

Does any one know what Obama's change is? is it a secret or is he going to tell us.
Maybe he is just talking about the way he changes his mind.

Ann

"The usual unpleasant little twists from Melanie I note: His number one fans in the Middle East, Hamas; that man of peace, Mahmood Abbas.

Can't you just feel the hatred?"

Sure I can, and it's coming from you, Hamas and Abbas.

James

Howard, you say: “His stance will change when and if he gets to the White House” – uhm, which stance is it? It’s hard to tell when Obama chatters in doublespeak.

Manners says: “Can't you just feel the hatred?” You can if you read the Hamas charter, a document to which Mahmood Abbas is fully signed up to. If you want to see hate in action do give it a read, sickbag at the ready.

Yes, Labourer, we know there are lots of other issues in the election but it is always foreign policy that attracts the most attention from non-American journalists because America’s foreign policy affects the rest of the world so much.

If a flawed Middle East policy were to lead to Israel’s fall, the rest of us will fall too. That is why there are Hamas MPs salivating over what their brothers in other lands will do once Israel has gone. Israel’s demise would embolden the Islamists as never before. The signal it would send is: it can be done – Caliphate here we come.

Oh, and "THX1138", Melanie isn’t going to down her pen – get used to it.

Leon Poddebsky

Obama, Kurzer and others arrogantly decree what is to be the future of Jerusalem, forgetting that it is under the sovereignty of The State of Israel by right.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Quite right that Jewish Americans should be concerned as to what will or will not be good for Israel. When it comes to the crunch, Israel is the sole insurance for all Jews everywhere, and heaven knows, we sure need that insurance at this time in our history! Sad that there are some who do not recognize this. As our good book says: "Put not thy trust in princes". This includes the political as well as the royal ones.
Unfortunately, the majority of Jewish Americans tend to vote for the Democrats. On this occasion , however, I hope that they will reconsider.

Roslyn Pine

Labourer.

I recommend that you read Gerard Baker's Times column of Tuesday June 3rd.(He is the paper's US editor.)
He writes that "AIPAC succeeds because very large numbers of Americans share its aims, not because it somehow strong-arms politicians into supporting it.
Candidates want AIPAC's approval
because they know that being seen as pro-Israel is central to their foreign policy credentials.
In opinion polls Americans express overwhelming support for Israel.They see it in kindred terms---a thriving democracy forged in an inhospitable climate."
Exactly. Israel is the canary in the mine.

With regard to policy, including domestic policy, Obama has been very non-specific, preferring obfuscation to details, and re-iterating the word "change" ad nauseam.
And as to the preacher, Jeremiah Wright, no-one but no-one could attend his church for 20 years to listen to his deranged rantings, having him as a close family friend officiating at family celebrations, without sharing some, or all, of his views.

Just like a marriage based on infatuation without substance, the relationship of Obama with the American people will end in divorce.
I am optimistic enough to hope that this will occur before November, and that John Mc.Cain will be the next US President.

david skinner

Maybe Obama needs to read Psalm 2 or is another piece of the Bible that needs to be torn out as being politically incorrect?

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?
The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,
Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.
He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.
Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession.
Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel.
Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth.
Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling.
Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

Dee Ranged

Just two points!

You cannot fool all the people, all the time.

If elected, Barak will be a disaster for the USA and hence the non-Islamic free world.

THX1138

James- Well I for one hope she gets plenty of practice over the next eight years.

Clive

Benjamin Disraeli, Prime Minister of England, in a novel he published in 1844 called "Coningsby, the New Generation", wrote :

"The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes."

Franklin Roosevelt, in a letter to Colonel House, November 21st, l933, wrote: "The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the Government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson."

Unfortunately American politics is every bit as much of a charade as our British politics. It is largely irrelevant who becomes President, Obama or McCain, because the power behind the throne remains the same, and it will be business as usual.

The only candidate who offered genuine change for the better was a gentleman by name of Ron Paul, but of course the MSM both in the States and here either ignored or scorned him. The main thing about him was his long standing fight for the Constitution, his understanding of the devastating role of the Federal Reserve in the US economy, and his opposition to the man-made Globing Warming scam and the phoney War on Terror.

keith

Yes, they are, and especially the Democrats.

keith

Yes, they are, and especially the Democrats.

Bogdan of Australia

B. Hussain Obama is changing his views and opinions like socks. He is as reliable and trustworthy defender of Israel's (and ultimately of America's) security as a drug addict in charge of a drug store, and American Jews voting fot him as smart as children who go to work to finance their father's drug addiction. In the end they all end up being raped...

Bogdan of Australia

"... his opposition to Global Warming scam and the phoney war on terror." - an obscure isolationist prises another obscure isolationist. As to the GW csam I tend to agree; For last ten years I've had a pleasure to live at the very shore of the open ocean. During those ten years the level of the water haven't moved even a centimetre, and that is the best proof that the GW doesn't exist. On the other side, since the 9/11 we have had some 12 000 terrorists acts, and that is the best proof that the War on Terror is real, and your idol Ron Paul is a crap.

Jane

Eight years, Mr Pretentious Name? And what's the betting you'll have learned the basics of English grammar by then?

Do look into your crystal ball and tell us that.

TheRealSwede

"... Are the Americans completely nuts?"

As an American all I can say is that Obama is a gaily wrapped package marked with a tag that says "do not open until November 5th" - and our MSM are doing everything in their power to make sure that instruction is adhered to.

Yelina

Even Obama TV fanzine Newsnight (with the dreadful Gavin Esler) said this week they asked for an Obama associate to give an interview on foreign policy - there were no takers. This is just months before he wants to ascend the Presidency.

Obama will toast America and the rest of the world:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2008/06/06/do0602.xml

Rob

We don't all believe in the same religion, if any are even worth believing in... and you expect the nature of politics to change because of one Afro-Caribbean man.
Having said that, look at the influence of one Palestinian pacifist about two thousand years ago...

Robin

Ann is right: commas are important.

david

OBAMA BIN LADEN....
This guy is an extension of the European liberal collapse....i cant take anymore

Dee Ranged

Democratic presumptive presidential nominee Barak Obama stood before the American Israel Public Affairs Committee parley Wednesday morning and declared his complete, unqualified support for a Jewish Jerusalem. The Holy City, he said, "will remain the capital of Israel, and it must remain undivided."

On Thursday, when queried by CNN, Obama said he was misunderstood.

"Well," Obama explained, "obviously, it's going to be up to the parties to negotiate a range of these issues. And Jerusalem will be part of those negotiations."

Despite telling the AIPCAC conference what it wanted to hear and believe, an undivided Jerusalem was, in fact, never his campaign's position.

You cannot fool all the people all the time!

Verity

Rob - which "Afro-Caribbean man"? I didn't know there was one running.

David

more like "Change We Can All Bereave In"

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

If Rob is referring to who I think he's referring to, he wasn't "Palestinian" (the name had not yet been invented) but Jewish. I'm not so sure that he was a pacifist, but if he was, then regrettably he didn't succeed in pointing the world in that direction. Strife and warfare (much of it waged in his name) have persisted and increased throughout the centuries since his time.

Danny Lemieux

Yes, Clive, that was very astute.

It helps to explain why there was not an iota's worth of difference between Presidents Jimmy Carter and Ronald Reagan.

roGER

How DARE he disobey AIPAC?!?

HOW DARE HE?!?

HOW DARE HE?!?

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Labourer, Obama's tax proposals and his passion for "fairness" (read - redistribution of wealth) would not be good for the American economy. He is in thrall to the teachers' unions and to the idea of political re-education -- two major factors that have devastated our system of public education. On the question of law and order, he has said that he will appoint judges who will substitute their emotional sympathies for the law, and has supported taking firearms out of the hands of everyone except violent criminals. He subsitutes empty rhetoric for substance, emotion for analysis, and would exchante what is best for America for what has been worst about Europe. There are many many reasons not to like or trust Obama. His foreign policy is both reckless and feckless. His recent duplicity towards America's only reliable middle eastern ally is only one of them. So yes, "nuts" is an apt term.

Verity

David - Gosh! Is he part Japanese, as well?

That might explain the Hawaii bit.

Clive

Bogdan: Nowhere did I say that terrorism wasn't real. In the 1970's I and all of family, classmates, friends were involved in a genuine war (but I even wonder now about that)against terrorism in Africa. I've seen upfront, first-hand some of the results of that terrorism - and it ain't nice!

What I did say is that the so-called "War" on terrorism is phoney. Terrorism is being used as a pretext to take away our civil liberties, just like Global Warming. Its another prong of a multi-pronged attack against us! Just look at the legislation that has come into force since 9/11 on both sides of the pond: Civil Contingencies, Patriot, Military Commissions Acts. The potential for each of these to be used against any of us is absolutely frightening!

Jonny Mac

"OBAMA BIN LADEN..."@David

Ffs, do you really think that adds anything? Anything at all? Prat.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

roGER should try harder than he has done in the past not to be a stupid sausage. The bigotry he's stuck with - it's an incurable disease . Nobody twisted Obama's arm. He said what he said in order to win Jewish support, and then, in typical politician fashion, he tried to get around that in order to placate the "others". He's so transparent. I just hope that Jewish Americans will have the good sense to realise that it's not in their or Israel's interests to vote Democrat. The "others" will vote for Obama because they believe it's in their interest to do so. Each and every group looks out for its own interests. That's the nature of the game.

Mark Solomon

Clive, yes, Ron Paul had some good ideas on tax and yes, far too few modern politicians understand what a real belief in liberty is all about, but I am afraid to say it wasn't the MSM that did RP in - it was himself, the guy is certifiably barking: I was quite attracted to him until I read that he simply does not believe in evolution-that was it game over, it's like asking us to vote for someone who still maintains the earth is flat: however much sense he talks on everthing else, you could not allow such a crackpot near the levers of power. That's why Ron Paul is still nowhere.

Rich Harris

Melanie,
With regard to "Change We Can All Believe In", yes, many of us are completely nuts.
Regards,
Rich Harris
MN USA

Sergey

"Are the Americans completely nuts?"
Well, not all of them, only about a half. I would not say this is worse that in any other country, and certainly better than in majority of them.

Tony

Clive, anti-terror legislation is always blunt, but that's the price we're paying for our porous borders. It's all too little, too late and still they skip into the country without a care in the world.

Sergey

No American politician can afford to alienate several millions of voters. AIPAC or no AIPAC, there is a consensus among American Jews, that US has a moral and legal obligation to defend Israel. And even more important voting block are evangelicans, comprising 60 mln votes, absolute majority of whom are Christian Zionists. This is political reality, holding for several decades, do you like it or not.

Tony

And don't miss Melanie's 'Wake up and smell the soup!' feature, which you can see on the right of this page if you click on that title.

David Lindsay

You have to hand it to Barack Obama. Not many people could stand up in front of AIPAC and say that Israel should be bisected, the only way that there can possibly be "a contiguous Palestinian State".

And they applauded him. We knew that the Israelis themselves had faced the fact that they were living in the Levant, and had therefore decided to give up on flying in all and sundry in order to maintain a non-Arab majority just because people in Golders Green and Crown Heights liked the idea of it but refused to do anything about it.

Have the inhabitants of Crown Heights, at least, come to much the same conclusion? And if so, then who needs a Palestinian State, anyway?

The Grand Dragon, George Wallace de nos jours, may be about to throw in the towel. But rumour has it that those who flocked to her nasty neo-Dixiecrat candidacy might still refuse to vote for Obama.

By reaching out to the unions on economic issues and to the Evangelical and Catholic churches on social issues, Obama could bring on board the white working class while consolidating his own black base.

The icing on the cake would be a third party or Independent candidate to rally the remaining Clintonites, those well-known mainstream Americans who don't speak English, or who don't believe in Jesus, or who don't believe in the opposite sex.

People who had only ever voted Republican in their lives would vote for a Democrat defined by the opposition of people like that.

Commondog

"The usual unpleasant little twists from Melanie I note: His number one fans in the Middle East, Hamas; that man of peace, Mahmood Abbas.

Can't you just feel the hatred?"

Yep. No problem with it. They're murderers.

Next question.

phil

The degree of cynicism on this thread is truly stupendous-why cant people ever trust a man at his word-his speech of which I only heard the last part was a brave and forthright statement of his future policies and a dire warning to Mr. dinnerjacket -he spoke up for America,s ally and the people who are both democratic and compassionate in a region of despots -what on earth is wrong with that (no not you roger.I am addressing grown ups)

-What would you have him say ? surely not that he will support Iran or Hamas /hesbollah , and the speech was at a meeting of AIPAC, and would obviously be one of interest to them ,it certainly was not his whole foreign policy -I am a person who is impressed by constructive criticism not this millennium's style of sneering about anyone who stands up and tries to improve our lives -I would like to hazard a bet that none of you critics know the man ,neither do I but I like what I hear and will be happy to accept the verdict of our American friends

.As for Hilary I heard it all and could not help shedding a tear for her sincere and wonderful support for both Israel and the Jewish people (harvey you can address roger .leave me out will you I,m not interested ) -You all surely realize that if the lunatics win the day in the middle east,they will be coming for you next and our friend David S is not going to save you by brandishing a bible and praying for their goodness -Personally too ,I don't care which of the candidates wins so long as he defends the west and its democratic values.

Verity

David Lindsay - There are millions of American Democrat voters who loathe Obama and who are absolutely terrified by his lack of any experience. Three years in the Senate - which time he has devoted not to his constituents but to nailing down his run for the Presidency.

It bothers me that not one governor is in the race, but it is not just chief executive experience that Obama lacks, but any experience whatsoever.

I don't know whether he believes everything he says, or just believes it while he's saying it, but there is a messainic glint in his eye that reminds me of Tony Blair. Yes, he's handsome and elegant, but so is Brad Pitt and I wouldn't want him for President, either.

There are millions of American Democrats who will either stay at home on polling day, or will hold their noses and vote for McCain, just to keep this individual out of the White House.

Ann

"Having said that, look at the influence of one Palestinian pacifist about two thousand years ago..."

Are you talking about Jesus? He was a JEW.

Ann

"The degree of cynicism on this thread is truly stupendous"

Yeah, right: Americans should entrust their country to a Johnny-come-lately who has achieved nothing of significance, has led no large organisation, has zero experience of grown-up politics, has spent 20 years in thrall to a vicious racist cleric, has no concrete policies to offer beyond 'hope' and 'change', and will say anything to anybody to get into the White House - and you accuse the posters here of cynicism? Obama is cynicism on wheels.

Harvey (now sponsored by AIPAC)

Someone called phil seems to think that I'm anxious to engage him in dialogue.

I'm not.

Davod

"Obama, Kurzer and others arrogantly decree what is to be the future of Jerusalem, forgetting that it is under the sovereignty of The State of Israel by right."

The government of Israel is doing quite well in giving Jerusalem to the Muslims.

phil

Ann I am crying laughing at your rapid stream of bullets coming my way as usual ,is it any wonder I take the mickey out of you from time to time -now please give me your knowledge of senator obama,s life and career -tell me what he did ,what his degrees are etc etc instead of just a stream of objectionable remarks -I claim no expertise in this matter ,I just like what I hear and I don't believe you know anything about him and he is very strong on your favourite topic !!-change my mind with facts,not invective ,ok?

Geoff Miller

I had to laugh last night when on the news a grovelling report on Obama's success showed his grandmother in africa, from her straw hut and in a break from feeding her chickens (no money filtereing down to her I think), saying how proud she was of him and what a great influence his muslim father had upon his success.

The report then went on to say, with no comment or trace of irony, he deserted the mother and hadn't seen his son since he was 2 years old!

I'm looking for all the dirty washing to come out during his run up to the election.

If the news of his dodgy friends and associations with racists and antisemites had come out earlier Clinton would have wiped the floor with him.

Now she looks set to be either his tormentor or the power behind the throne.

Should be fun.

John West

Marwan's observation above that Obama appears to be 'all surface and no substance' brings to mind a mathematical figure called Gabriel's Horn, which has infinite surface area but finite volume. There's an illustration at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriel's_Horn, and perhaps it could be the logo for Obama's campaign.

rich

One can only hope that Obama is the "black Al Smith."

The first candidate from his particular minority, who goes down to defeat, but is a trail blazer for a more moderate successor.

But John McCain is no prize. He will probably do as much damage to the American economy as Obama, never mind American freedom of speech..

Rob-NY-

THX1138
"Get used to it Mel he's going to be President".

I have heard smug soothsayers like you say the same thing about Gore and Kerry. Get used to it. You were wrong before and will be wrong again.
PS, I have a vote and you don't.

Verity

9:07 Rob -NY - Hooray for your response to number plate!

They are always absolutely certain about victory for the left in the person of their candidate. All these saviours that never were ... so sad.

My prediction, they will approach that hoary old hero of the poor and disadvantage, multi-squillionaire Al Gore of Hanging Chads to balance the age and experience issue against Mr McCain.

My next prediction: he won't accept. He's been the VP once, and he lost the presidency in the Battle of Hanging Chads. And he has to rush to get his movie, "An Inconvenient Truth" out before his theory gets even more tarnished.

Linda New York City

Unfortunately, many Jewish people here in the U.S. are liberal and can never get themselves to vote Republican. It's as if they have blinders on, refusing to see that Obama is just an empty suit with no experience. He is a dynamic speaker who is extremely liberal and way to the left. He has surrounded himself in the past with people who are as left as he is and do not seem to have a love of this country.

As a Jew and one who is concerned with the War on Terrorism and Israel's sovereignty, I am NOT voting for Obama. My hope is that the American people will realize that he is not the man for these times.

George Steiner

Obambi has said a lot of things. Virtually all inconsequential. But at least one thing will haunt himm through all his flip flops.

When aked why did he defend his pastor, then two weeks later disown him, his answer was "It was the right thing to say at the time".

For a crass polititian this may pass. For the man who is the second comming it will not.

Ann

"Ann I am crying laughing at your rapid stream of bullets coming my way as usual"

Your self-importance knows no bounds, doesn't it? I was commenting on various people's statements, and some happened to be yours. I have nil interest in you as a person, although clearly you are obsessed with me. Forget it: I couldn't be less interested in you and your sad life.

"is it any wonder I take the mickey out of you from time to time"

In your dreams, little boy.

"now please give me your knowledge of senator obama,s life and career -tell me what he did ,what his degrees are etc etc instead of just a stream of objectionable remarks"

Do some basic research. Ever heard of Google? What I said was factual. You don't know the difference between that and 'objectionable remarks'. You need a dictionary.

"I claim no expertise in this matter"

And you have none, boyo. A bit like the BBC clowns who claim that he voted against the Iraq war (unless they know they are lying, of course: but Al Beeb would never lie, would it?).

Three years in the senate is an absurdly short time for presidential ambitions, all the more so as he has never run a major organisation of any kind.

Now, go off and do some rsearch.

THX1138

Rob-NY- Hi Rob, Your right I can't vote but my younger brother THX1139 has just become a citizen so his vote will cancel yours out. Anyway your vote won't count for much in NY State all 31 electoral votes are firmly in the Dem's tally, hard to find a bluer state.

Hard for us Brits to get our heads around this blue Democrat, red GOP thing over here it's the other way round red Labour, blue Tory all very confusing.

SethK

Numberplate may be a member of the Church of O. Here's a recent parish newsletter:

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/g/a/2008/06/06/notes060608.DTL

Rob-NY

I urge all my friends in the UK to start researching Gov. Bobby Jindal as a possible running mate for McCain. I call him the "thinking man's Obama". At 37 he has much experience and success than Obama and is also an Asian-American whose parents were immigrants from India. He is the perfect VP for McCain.

BJ

The situation under international law is quite clear, East Jerusalem/al-Quds is part of the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
Apprently Obama once said he would be "even handed between Israel and the Palestinians" if only it were true!

Adam B.

If American Jews think that Obama will be supportive of Israel in her defence against Islamic jihadists, they are deluding themselves.
http://jeffreygoldberg.theatlantic.com/archives/2008/05/mccain_on_israel_iran_and_the_1.php

Simon

A good day for reason, democracy and the rest of humanity which is, unlike you, not only concerned with what will or will not be good for Israel. He provides more hope for peace and prosperity than Bush/McCain and if that means you have to make some concessions, then I'm afraid, so be it.

Harvey

Oh dear! Deirdre and I don't seem to have got past 'moderation'. Well there's a surprise. You can dish it out but you can't take it?

Levy

Surely you don't want a Christian fundamentalist (well, another one) running the world (and effectively Israel) after everything the Christians have done to the Jews?? Don't you have any self-respect!

Rob-NY

THX1138 - That's where your wrong. New York and other "blue" states are competitive this year for McCain and the scorn of Hillary will have an effect in New York as well. Kudos to your brother for having the good sense to flee to America and shame on him for trying to establish a European style socialist government in my country.

Harvey

'Oh dear! Deirdre and I don't seem to have got past 'moderation'. Well there's a surprise. You can dish it out but you can't take it?'

Now this doesn't mean anything to anyone (ie everyone) who hasn't read the original, does it?

Go on!!! Post it. Or is this just drooling sycophants central with the odd licensed dissident?

JS

I am beginning to find Ann's abusive, childish and nasty remarks offensive. Ann, until you can argue your case without resorting to the wicked and insulting little barbs you seem to think show us how clever you are, maybe try to think about a more adult way of taking part in this blog. For my part, I am no longer going to read your "contributions", because while I suppose you have every right to patronise and condescend, you do yourself, and the rest of us, no favours with your various delusions. And if you're even half as brilliant as you think you are, you'll know exactly what I mean.

Verity

Rob, NY - Care to tell us why you write that Mr Jindal "is also an Asian American"? Who is the other "Asian American" running?

JS - Oh, the wounded little boy's ego!

If you want to insult someone, for God's sake edit yourself and can the stream of consciousness.

Ann is astute and writes with economy. Please, dear boy, try to emulate her. If you can't, then a period of silence would be much appreciated.

Sergey

If you look closely at Obama fans, you'll find that they come from two opposing wings of IQ curve: undereducated black wellfare recipients, for two or three generation living on government dole, and overeducated in liberal arts college boys. Middle America and middle two quartiles of IQ curve are voting Republican. The first group of idiots are Nature making; the second are creatures of leftist indoctrination in academia.

phil

ann ;).) but no facts just more invective ,but I am enjoying your jokes a little more, we should have met when you were younger ,I would have tamed you as in Shakespeare.By the way I use wikipedia .its good ,a lot better than "invective for dummies" and far more effective .my best regards to you .

phil

J S I think you said it better than me -my compliments

phil

JS -I have just read down the list, is the fragrant verity insulting you or me ?-;) she has the longest arms in history ,long enough to continually pat her own back but strangely not long enough to reach and cover her lips ,on a daily basis we receive her smart alec remarks and never one ounce of common sense .but I forgive her ,she is amusing .
What I find with both her and her friend Ann is that when I write something that they may not agree with(and that is usual) ,both come back not with reasoned argument but with invective in ann,s case ,and supercilious sarcasm in the case of verity -both have obviously been educated as they seem to know long words ,so why they cant debate is beyond me .Watch this space I may have something constructive to say again .

I hope not to be moderated as I think I do have a right of reply (without sarcasm or invective)

Roy

It's a pity so many in these posts can't see the straight talking, thoroughly common sense, high principled and honest to goodness soundly based remarks Melanie puts forward. Always it is claimed she has an ulterior motive or naivety. To me it is they who are stuck forever in the quicksands and muddied polluted water of world realities. No one - in my experience - has such a good insight into complicated middle eastern affairs, and the internal ramifications such matters have for Britain and the world. Straight talking just doesn't suit a good many in our society. The truth hurts.

Leon Poddebsky

BJ, "the situation under international law" IS quite clear: the entire Land of Israel, on both sides of the Jordan River, INCLUDING Jerusalem, was decreed by the arbiter, The League of nations, in 1922, to be the future Jewish state.
The facts of political betrayal, duplicity and cynicism, coupled with Jewish powerlessness to enforce our rights, in no way diminish the Jewish right, on MANY grounds, to sovereignty over the City.

Ann

JS, perhaps you need to apply a little more care and consistency to your reading? Phil keeps going around, on thread after thread, throwing abuse at me because once I dared disagree with him. He does it on this thread. I simply commented on verious posters' comments. He keeps up his obsessive personal attacks on me. If you don't like it that I don't allow him to get away with his personal attacks, tough.

Ann

Clearly, Phil, your ongoing obsession has affected your eyes. I posted facts, whereas you are simply indulging your hysterical obsession yet again.
You tame me? In your dreams, boy.

JS

I have long suspected that Ann and Verity is the same person....

Ann

"The situation under international law is quite clear, East Jerusalem/al-Quds is part of the Occupied Palestinian Territories"

I would love to hear your detailed arguments, based on verifiable facts.
They are no such thing in law. Have a look at the original 'legal' documements, the LoN mandate (I don't believe that 'international law' is more than a euphemism for power fantasies, in other words I don't regard this concept as 'law' in the technical meaning of the term; but let that pass for the moment). 'Palestinian territories' as a legal concept is a figment of someone's overactive imagination.

phil

Linda New York City-thanks for your contribution which is one with more insight than many on this thread and one that I must give weight to-I have tried to put my thoughts and my reflections on what I have seen and read ,but it is difficult when one does not live at the scene so I am grateful for this post from you -you will no doubt see that I have been a busy "boy" this morning on my keypad answering some of the contributions from those with less adult approaches to this important subject-so hopefully they will provide a little humour to this otherwise dull day -I used to stay with a girlfriend in Rockville centre some years ago and I must say I loved the way of life you have -you probably knew her (Harriet) .she was zany ! -lit the candles one Friday night and then served prawn jambalaya ;)

PS --I loved Hilary,s speech at AIPAC -as I have said on an earlier post it brought a tear to my eye .so I hope I haven't misread her -regards to you all from one who loves and appreciates America

phil

Roy I cant keep my keypad quiet this morning but I had to say "right on " as they say in America - we can all disagree but with intellect not rudeness -well said

D Gray

Obama is an arogant fool with a indestructable supiriority complex.He will do whatever comes into his head whether its right or wrong.If this idiot is elected then Israel is under threat from destruction.Iran wants this fool in power because they know his liberalism wont allow him to do anything thay even remotley resembles offensive action.Looks like all the bible prophecies about the end of days was true after all.

Sam

I remember how people laughed at the fact that Bush and Blair are religious people who prayed to God for guidance. (BTW nothing wrong with that if its part of your personna). However, Obama doesn't seem any less devout and often mentions his religious background and the importance of his church. On this basis he may also sign-up to the Christian Zionist policy of supporting Israel against Islam and against division of Jerusalem. I'm hoping one difference though. I think Bush has NOT done the best for Israel and I think his hands have been tied by links to Saudi Arabia. I hope that Obama has no such links. I suppose my argument works for McCain too. I want to hear what McCain has to offer AIPAC, a conduit to 60-70m Christian Zionists.

phil

ANN-- I cant , let you ,get away with this one(see below) even though I am laughing here with friends who are hysterical watching what you write and believe me I am fed up with writing to you. But others reading our posts think you represent Jewish thought -you do not and you do us great harm as I have told you in the past-Many of us here try very hard to show that we are a reasonable and compassionate people who care about not only ourselves but the peaceful future of all in the middle east -single handidly you ruin that objective with your vindictive and gratuitous insults -Others here try to tell you the same thing but stubbornness seems to win every time -please stop it .

"Phil keeps going around, on thread after thread, throwing abuse at me because once I dared disagree with him. He does it on this thread. I simply commented on verious posters' comments. He keeps up his obsessive personal attacks on me" ------ even you KNOW THAT THIS IS UNTRUE .I asked you recently to show everyone where this post was and of course you ignored me -I don't even mind your silly comments about me but please don't tell untruths -I have asked you many times not to use insults and invective in our common cause -that is all -I know I waste my time on you ,but it makes me feel a better person so I have continued -JS she is not verity ,that lady uses longer words and ann needs a spellchecker

epaminondas

Howard, there will be no change. Nothing could better demonstrate this that Obama's AIPAC speech and the denouement.

Lying to get votes is same old same old, and his clearly racist appointments such as Zbig and McPeak (and other's he was compelled to fire, after HE named them), along with his 20 year stint at Trinity mark him as a far more dangerous man to the idea and reputation of america than Bush could EVER be.

field

Leon -

You say:

"BJ, "the situation under international law" IS quite clear: the entire Land of Israel, on both sides of the Jordan River, INCLUDING Jerusalem, was decreed by the arbiter, The League of nations, in 1922, to be the future Jewish state. "

If it is so clear - why don't you quote the relevant declaration.

Verity

Sergey - I may be wrong, but I think third/fourth generation black welfare recipients are Hillary Clinton's turf. (Along, of course, with ancient feministas.) They would not see Obama as one of their own - partly because he isn't.

C O JONES

Harvey: "Or is this just drooling sycophants central with the odd licensed dissident?"

There is more dribbling than drooling going on. It happens when they nod off at their keyboards. There is more than enough material here for a Psychology Phd. Dissent? The hardcore will brook not one word of dissent from that which is handed down in the Book of Melanie. It is THEIR blog and don't you dare forget it! Dissenters? If you really stick at it like THX1138 they'll give you a chummy nickname like 'Mr Number-Plate' but otherwise they'll nit pick and snipe away accusing you of the very tactics that they are using - straight out the New Labour manual written by Peter Mandelson. I tend to think of this blog as the cyber equivalent of St Mary Mead where one or two of the aspiring Miss Marples occasionally have one glass too many of some grim over-oaked chardonnay. Also the interminable sermons from aspiring vicars - cut and pasted from Wiki. THX1138 once compared it to the psychiatric hospital in One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest - well he should know :-)))
It isn’t all one sided. There’s nothing quite like seeding the board with a comment like, "Jerusalem is an Arab town and Israel should hand it back" - then sit back and watch Pavlov's doggies run!

The common denominators are that everyone on here has got nothing else better to do, everyone on here takes themselves a little bit too seriously and nobody on here, Melanie included, is going to mobilise enough support save western civilisation unless they tolerate a slightly broader church of opinion.

Barrack Obama? - unfortunate name ;-)

A Christian Friend of Israel (and The Free World)

OK, folks, you all know the tune to this so join in if you feel like it.

The Hokey Cokey Foreign Policy

Lyrics inspired by Barack Hussein Obama

You rule Jerusalem in,
You rule Jerusalem out,
In, out, in, out,
What’s this policy all about?
You do the foreign policy hokey cokey
And you smarm about,
Let’s hope you don’t get found out.

CHORUS

Oh hokum, hokum, hokum,
Oh, hoodwink ’em with the hokum,
Oh total, total hokum,
Resolve bend,
Credibility stretch,
Ra, ra, ra.

You say pre-conditions aren’t in,
And lose us all our clout,
Nitwit, numbskull,
What the heck you on about?
You do this in office,
You’ll hand Iran a total rout,
Maybe Hillary shouldn’t drop out.

CHORUS
Oh, hokum, hokum, hokum etc

(Dedicated to Gavin Esler and Matt Frei who provided choreography in perfect synchronicity with the lyrics – thanks fellas!)

James

It's interesting that Melanie worries about Obama's attitude to the small foreign nation of Israel and not Obama's attitude to the numerous white citizens of the nation he wants to be president of. Does his attendance at a rabidly anti-white church for twenty years not matter? Apparently so, though I doubt he could have survived five minutes' attendance at an anti-semitic church.

Sergey

Yes, Verify, you are wrong. Polls show that Obama took at primaries 90% of black vote. Hillary got 60% among white women and much more than half among white working class. This is identity politics at full swing, so popular among Democrats.

Harvey

CO JONES - I did reply to your comment but 'moderation' struck again. The 'moderated' post was general and attacked or insulted no individual - unless you count describing A Christian Friend of Israel (and The Free World)'s offering as 'witless' by of illustration of a general point - which is mild compared to some of the abuse waved through by 'moderation'. Perhaps 'moderation' would like to show its head over the parapet and explain what the policy on 'moderation' is. Okay - it's obviously to smother and marginalise dissent but no doubt they wouldn't say that...

Verity

Sergey - thanks.

Alexandrovich

Cojones: they are also a humourless bunch, continually seeking the approbation of 'she who must be parroted.'
You could do that Phd. on the mealy-mouthed bloke alone.
However, the 'Vannity Twins' take the biscuit. They remind me of a certain Kuwaiti Princess, interviewed for English television at her home in London just after SH had invaded Kuwait.
"Do something!" she screamed at the camera.

Ann

"I have long suspected that Ann and Verity is the same person...."

And as so often before, you are both wrong and delusional.

Ann

Thanks for your support, Verity.

Ann

"But others reading our posts think you represent Jewish thought"

You don't even know whether or not I am Jewish, mate. The rest of your post is equally silly.
As to needing a spellchecker - you don't even know that names start with a capital letter in English, so think about motes and beams.

Ann

PS. Phil, do get someone to explain to you the correct use of commas. Your punctuation is an embarassment.

Ann

""Jerusalem is an Arab town and Israel should hand it back"

Well, yes, if you post such ignorant nonsense then of course you'll find that people post corrections. But perhaps facts don't really bother you one way or another.

Ann

"Does his attendance at a rabidly anti-white church for twenty years not matter? Apparently so, though I doubt he could have survived five minutes' attendance at an anti-semitic church"

Which planet are you on? His mentor for 20 years is rabidly antisemitic.

Bob

Melanie,

You are right! We in America have gone nuts, and the world will suffer if Obama succeeds. If Americans thought Bush was bad, just wait until Obama becomes president (a very likely scenario). Never in the history of our country has someone had less qualifications to become president than Barack Obama, unless of course you count Pat Paulson (the comedian who ran for president as a joke). Unfortunately, this election is no joke, and the real world in America is becoming "curiouser and curiouser."

Harvey

Ann on one of her usual gigs complains...

PS. Phil, do get someone to explain to you the correct use of commas. Your punctuation is an embarassment.

It's embarrassment actually. Not that it matters.

But if you're going to do pedantic, get it right...

phil

Nice to hear so much from you ann (you havn,t earned capitals yet) and I am not your mate, nor am I your boy never was and never will be OK?-nevertheless glad to hear your only complaint was my use or not of commas and notice you still cant find the post you keep referring to.

Can,t we keep to politics, even though this is a lot of fun for me I dot suppose the other posters come here to be entertained ,but who knows maybe they do and Mike the original seems to have disappeared , so other than Jonathan Ross you are the best I can find-hope my commas have improved and that you can spell "verious "now .

Smile you are on camera and have a good weekend ( I, mean it )

phil

Harvey I don,t suppose the use of commas will save the world and as for motes and beams ,I consign them to the dustbin of history,,,,,,,,,,,,,can you send a few of these to Ann -there I used a capital -and I never used a capital with that lady -is that a moat or a beam ?;)

Tiberius

Where are Saturday's posts between 6.03pm and 8.28pm?

Not enough name calling in them?

No such thing as truth.

One's perspective is dependant upon the platform from which one is viewing.

Barack Obama will be a thoroughly postmodern president, he's a Clinton, he's a Cameron, he's a Blair, he's new age man.

Harvey

Tiberius - probably 'moderated'.

Enough of this nonsense for one day - time for bed.

Nighty night.

Verity

1:23 am Tiberius - where are postings? Who knows? There is a moderator here who is a controlling lefty.

Read the latest Mark Steyn on Obama: http://www.ocregister.com/articles/obama-speech-remake-2061941-sen-great

Funny!

I've taken to saving copies of my posts, so if this doesn't appear, it will be resubmitted. And resubmitted.

Leon Poddebsky

Field, on September 29, 1922, the Council of The League of Nations endorsed the Mandate, according to which the future Jewish state was to encompass the entire Land of Israel, including Jerusalem.
Subsequent bad faith, political, economic and demographic realities, aggression and pusillanimity notwithstanding, Jewish RIGHTS are clearly defined.

KLS

Obama....Another left wing terrorist extremist and his anti-American hate rhetoric proves it.

Pete Hoskin

Tiberius, Harvey, Verity: All comments that we recevied yesterday evening have been approved - no censorship whatsoever. There was a little bit of a lag, as I was on a particularly tortuous tube journey.

Verity: if you suspect some of your comments aren't getting through, you're very welcome to e-mail them to me on phoskin at spectator.co.uk and I'll put them up manually for you. Hope that helps.

Ann

Harvey, I never claimed that a quickly-typed message on a blog needs to be grammatically perfect. It was Phil who criticised my spelling, despite the fact that his punctuation is appalling and he doesn't understand uppercase, so I merely pointed out to him that he'd better sort out his own beams before looking at other people's motes. If you want to accuse anyone of pedantry, why not address him? He's the one with no real arguments, and therefore obliged to resort to this kind of nonsense.

Harvey

Pete Hoskin - there is plainly widespread dissatisfaction with moderation on this blog so...

A modest proposal: why not have clear ground rules all can understand and accept? I'd suggest:

1. Obscenity, defamatory or racist remarks and gross personal abuse are all legitimate targets for moderation.

2. In marginal cases, the presumption should be in favour of publication.

3. A level playing field. Manipulating the terms or balance of debate is not a legitimate objective of moderation.

4. Subject to 1. above - let people say whatever it is that they want to say.

Makes sense?

Pete Hoskin

Harvey: that's exactly how we do moderate, so we're not being unfair in any way. The problem's actually with the tecnology behind the comments system, such that some comments aren't getting through to us. I'm trying to flag this up whenever it happens, and am working with our tech team to sort it. In the meantime, they've suggested that some pop-up blockers may prevent comments from getting through. Even so, and as I've said to Verity, I'm happy for those whose comments aren't getting through to e-mail them to me on phoskin at spectator.co.uk and I'll put them up manually - surely another sign that the problems aren't down to moderation?

Augustus

Tiberius: "Where are Saturday's posts between 6.03pm and 8.28pm?"

A non-conspiratorial reason is that could simply be something to do with system unavailabilty due to weekly backup/housekeeping routines and/or server/ mirroring problems etc.

If we were spared any petty homilies on spelling, punctuation and grammar then it put it down to good fortune.

Augustus

Infamy, infamy! You've all got it in for me! That moderator deliberately cobbled up my last post!

Verity

2:44 pm By the way, the Tony Rezko who just got done in Chicago? Obama said, "This isn't the Tony Rezko I know." Uh-huh. And you must have known him pretty well, Mr Obama, given that your families went on vacation together.

I'm looking forward to Barack's campaign. It should be a hoot.

phil

Pete Hoskin -if my experience is anything to go by one needs to turn the pop up blocker to" okay " mine go through now but I had trouble before --dont tell ANN ;)

logdon

He's flipped already. Try http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/021288.php
for how he does it

phil

Good afternoon my dear ANN please help me, is punctuation anything to do with needles ?is uppercase just for toffs?pedantry! -my feet are fine thanks and my castle has only beams no moats ,commas a little difficult now due to the economic climate otherwise all ok apart from your spelling-wipe your eyes my love I,m sure we are all growing to love you and would miss your always kind comments -and now that Hillary is behind Barrack what do you think?

Laura

To James
June 7th, 2008 3:41pm

You need to keep up, James. To my recollection, Melanie highlighted Jeremiah Wright back in Dec last year and Jan this year. It was certainly well before the rest of the mainstream media woke up to all that stuff.

Mealanie is writing about this particular angle this week because Obama gave a speech on the subject, which his camp duly made an about turn on.

Don't take my word for it. Go through the archive on this blog and you'll see it all set down plain as day.

field

Leon -

I note and - more importantly - I expect others will also note that despite being invited to quote the mandate terms so as to back up your assertion that the intention was to create a Jewish state in the whole of the Mandate territory you have not done so. You have simply reiterated your claims which are false.

However I HAVE read the relevant documents and it is clear that nothing more than a Jewish National Homeland was promised. The Soviet Union and the current Russian Federation both had and have numerous "national homelands" which were never states. There were national homelands in South Africa and national homelands for Native Americans in the USA. There were national homelands for people under the British Empire. It is clear the Mandate encouraged Zionism and the creation of a Jewish Agency but it was left open as to whether there would or would not be a Jewish state and there is clear recognition that another community exists in the mandate. Furthermore when Transjordan was incorporated in the Mandate the terms specifically excluded any part of it being subject to the arrangements for a Jewish National Homeland.

In legal terms, the legitimacy of Israel relies primarily on the UN partition arrangements (and subsequent UN Membership) and I think it very unwise for Israelis to try and extend it beyond that. It could hardly be bettered as a legal basis for statehood. The moral case is of course a different issue.

Alexandrovich

"You don't even know whether or not I am Jewish, mate.
I think we all do:
"...(he) should be aware that his Jewish grandfather doesn't give him any claim whatsoever to being Jewish himself or any connection with us as a nation."
09-05-08.

steve

Hey Rob-NY.

New York is most definitely not "in play" this fall. It is a solid bedrock Democratic state.

Frank Pulley

If the adoring acclaim for Obama continues, I fear there may be a General Erection in the US in November. Let's hope it doesn't end in an auntie climax, Uncle Sam!

SethK

Charles Johnson at Little Green Footballs points to a fetid swamp of antisemitism at the official Obama website:

http://littlegreenfootballs.com/article/30241_At_the_Official_Obama_Site-_How_the_Jewish_Lobby_Works

Ann

I am so grateful to Alexandrovich, who clearly knows better than I do whether or not I am Jewish, even though he knows absolutely nothing about me.
And Phil is still scribbling obsessively about me.
The number of sad delusional people here is quite amazing.

Field:
There was never any legal basis, whether based on a promise, a LoN mandate or anything else, for a non-Jewish state-like entity west of the Jordan. Everything you cite as facts is true per se, but your mistake is in omitting that simple fact. No other group other than Jews, therefore, has a legal claim to a state-like entity west of the Jordan.
I am sure that you know as well as I do that the fictitious 'Palestinian' nation was invented out of thin air in 1963. The Arabs say so themselves.

Ann

Frank,
Have you by any chance read the orgasmic article by Andrew Sullivan (a standard-issue lefty scribbler) in the Sunday Times? He declares across the front page of the review section that Obama WILL sweep McK to one side and WILL be the next president and WILL change history. He hasn't heard of hubris, apparently.

Ann

OIC, Alexandrovich is quoting the impostor who impersonated me here last month. I really couldn't think what on earth he was going on about, since I certainly didn't write those words, until suddenly it clicked.
Sorry, A: nice try, no cigar.

Roslyn Pine

Field.

I, too, have read the original documents, and you are clearly engaging in semantics to give credibility to your specious arguments.
It was made crystal clear that the Jews were to have self-determination in their own entity, whatever adjective was used to describe it, it being written for all to see that the non-Jewish subjects of that entity be accorded religious and civic rights, but not political rights, which were to be accorded only to the Jewish subjects therein.

The League of Nations Mandate made it absolutely clear that the creation of Lebanon, Syria Iraq and Trans-Jordan were to be created for the Arab citizens who had lived under the Ottaman Empire and the area designated in "Palestine", whichever name was to chosen for it, was to be for the Jewish inhabitants, plus for Jews from anywhere in the world who wished to join them.

Your explanation for the delegitimisation of Israel is novel to me, and will be roundly dismissed by any serious and unbiased international, legal expert as the nonsense that it is.

The existence of Israel is clearly not part of your "weltanschaung", but please don't treat us all like idiots in order to prove your case.

Verity

8:53 pm Ann - Andrew Sullivan used to be a moderately right wing writer of some merit, and then I think he must have sustained a knock on the head, because he suddenly put in around two solid years writing in American publications about gay marriage. It may have been this gripping obsession, rather than a knock on the head, that yanked him over to the left, where he drones away unheard. As soon as I see his byline anywhere, my eyes dart compulsively to the next item.

But before the advent of his gay marriage obsession, he was a writer of some political forensic skill and lucidity and a leaning to the right. I can't think of any other right wing writers who suddenly darted over to the left. (Ron Liddle seems to be sauntering rightwards, though.)

ajmalkov

Verity,

Obama didn't just vacation with Rezco. Rezco bought Obama's house for him.

By the way, thanks for the warning that a new piece by Excitable Andy has been foisted on the blogosphere. I will be certain to avoid it.

Verity

ajmalkov - Rezco bought Obama's house for him? That mansion? That house? I love it!

I'm also interested in how Obama, completely new on the national political scene, managed to raise $300m. That is more than Hillary raised, and she has been a national figure for 20 years and has a huge following among the Dems.

Yet Obama is suddenly there, out of nowhere, and he suddenly has $300m to spend. That's a lot of loose change I can't believe in.

Ann, above, mentioned that Sullivan has a piece in The Times, his old stamping ground when he actually had something to say. I haven't checked.

David Lindsay

Obama is going to pick up enough paleocon votes that he doesn't need AIPAC. Even if they all stayed at home or voted for McCain (neither of which will happen), he could still win. A paradigm shift.

We are also about to see just how many American Evangelicals really do subscribe to the wholly aberrant (and not exactly philo-Semitic) theory of Christian Zionism. For the first time since Israel became an issue, it is going to be put to the test of a Presidential Election. Let's see what happens.

Richard

Howard, (6/6/08, 5:39 am) that really is quite the leap of faith. What a politician says on the campaign trail is what he will be judged by when in office. In your scenario, he must either be a cynical liar or a saint whom you KNOW will do what you think he will, when in office.

Jill

The only change we can believe in is the constant changing of his rhetoric.

And his alliances.

Melanie, the American people can only vote for candidates who present themselves. But anyone, anywhere, generally votes for the up-and-coming handsome young man regardless of his qualifications.

I have noticed this in various competitive contexts, doesn't matter who is running or whether someone else is better.
I think young men give people a sense of optimism or something. Plus if he keeps talking about "change" - well, enough people are dissatisfied with their lives to want this I suppose.

I'm not sure when the role of a President became that of Saviour rather than ASdministrator in Chief but this seems to happen in every country.

Ann

Verity, I'll take your word for it. Whatever the reason, he seems quite demented (e.g. quite quite convinced of his infallible clairvoyant skills).
It was the Sunday Times, btw.

field

I note Roslyn Pine also fails as did Leon P. to quote directly the mandate terms.

The idea that Israel's legitimacy or security is advanced by making the ludicrous claim that Jews were promised an independent state in the whole of the Mandate territory is absurd. To claim what is now Jordan as well as Palestine for Israel just plays into the hands of those who would destroy Israel.

I think most Jews and certainly most Israelis are quite content with the land of Israel proper and are prepared to make some sort of deal over Jerusalem (but obviously only in the context of there being genuine peacemakers on the other side, which is open to question).

I think it is pathetic when people like Pine try and smear people like me who support and defend legitimate Israel.

If anyone starts repeating these absurd claims I am going to start quoting the mandate treaties, boring though that will be, to prove that no Jewish state was ever promised.

Leon

Field:
Key figures in determining the intention of the Mandate for "Palestine" made it clear that they envisaged a Jewish state.
LLoyd George "It was contemplated that...Palestine would become a Jewish commonwealth."
Balfour, 1918: "My hope is that the Jews will make good in Palestine...eventually found a Jewish state."
Lord Robert Cecil(1918): " Our wish is that Arabian countries shall be for the Arabs...Judea for the Jews."
Churchill (1920): "...A Jewish state by the banks of the Jordan."
Smuts (1919): "...a great Jewish state."

Jonathan Matthews

Would those people that use "Barack
Hussain Obama" in their posts please keep it consistent and use George Walker Bush, John Sidney McCain III, Anthony Charles Lynton Blair and David William Donald Cameron when referring to these people?

I just can't see the relevance of using the middle name, unless it's being used to imply that by having an Islamic name he is in some way connected with Islamic extremists, or is anti-semitic.

But considering that there is no evidence anywhere that he is either of these things I don't see the point in doing it.

Kate

An issue about Obama just now being raised in American blogs and which should have aroused interest much sooner, but didn't because of msm's highly biased support for Obama: Obama refuses to release a copy of his Birth Certificate. This is crucial, because the Constitution of the United States states in Article II Section 1 "No person except a natural born citizen...shall be eligible to the office of president;" Any American citizen can obtain a copy of his/her Birth Certificate from the city or town within the State in which the birth took place. I first began looking into Barack Hussein Obama's background years before he made his bid for the top office (all his names are Arabic; people now stress all three of his names because msm deliberately avoided using his middle name although msm always uses full names for others such as Hilary Rodham Clinton, etc). The man has fabricated a biography which is seriously questionable and on this one point alone rests the issue of his eligibility (rather than his suitability) to this office.

Ann

"To claim what is now Jordan as well as Palestine for Israel"

Field, you really should know a little about the subject before launching into your ridiculous rants. Jordan was originally part of the original mandate of Palestine. The only meaning 'Palestine' has ever had is one that includes what became T-J and later Jordan.

Others have already demolished your absurd claim that no state was ever envisaged or promised.

Ann

"I just can't see the relevance of using the middle name, unless it's being used to imply that by having an Islamic name he is in some way connected with Islamic extremists, or is anti-semitic"

Hardly any need for that. His mentor for 20 years is an outspoken antisemite.

He makes great play of his racial credentials somehow making him fit for office. He can't turn around and claim also that they are irrelevant.

Kate

Barack Hussein Obama may not be eligible for the office of President if he fails to produce a Birth Certificate proving that he was born on American soil; if he was not born on American soil to his American mother (his father was and remained Kenyan in citizenship), then US Law requires that the American mother must have resided in the US for at least 10 years before giving birth and that five of those years must be from the age of 16 years onwards. Obama's mother gave birth to him when she was 18 according to his official statement so, the question is, where was he born? If he was born in the United States then it does not matter how old his mother was or even if he was illegitimate (his Kenyan father had several wives at the time of his 'marriage' to Obama's mother). However, if he does not produce a Birth Certificate, then there are grounds to question if he was born on US soil. If he was not, then he is disqualified on two grounds: not being born on American soil and that his American mother had not resided in the US, after the age of 16, for the length of time required by the US Law to establish her son's right to citizenship. With regard to Obama's presentation as a "black" or "Negro": US Law requires that a person be one-eighth (1/8th) of the racial component to which he or she claims "protected status" as a minority. Obama appears to be 50% Caucasian (maternal side), 43.75% Arab-African (paternal side of slave-owners and there were also slave-owners on the Caucasian American side in the 19th century) and 6.25% Negroid (one paternal grandparent). Obama is one-sixteenth, not one-eighth Negroid. He is not the "black" candidate.

field

Leon -

Quoting the hopes and interpretations of great statesmen is not the same as quoting the Mandate documents.
Any fule know that.

Ann -

I suggest you go back to your history book. It is wrong to say "Jordan was originally part of the original mandate of Palestine".

Jordan, or Transjordan, was not included in the original Mandate. The eastern border was to be determined by the Mandate powers. It was later added to the Mandate territory of Palestine having been carved out of I think some Ottoman province. However, it was made clear by Churchill no less I think it was that the provision re the Jewish Agency et al would not apply to this addition.

Feel free to apologise for your slur on my knowledge of history.

Jonathan Matthews

"He makes great play of his racial credentials somehow making him fit for office. He can't turn around and claim also that they are irrelevant"

Ann, I am claiming that the use of the name "Hussain" is irrelevant. How does the name Hussain pertain to his race?

Leon

Field, Article 25 of the Mandate document begins, "In the territories lying between the Jordan and the eastern boundary of Palestine..." Hence, Palestine comprised territories on both banks of the Jordan.

The term "National Home" was a "euphemism" coined by the Zionists in order not to antagonise the Ottoman rulers of The Land of Israel. The British kept the term.

NotaSheep

Barack Obama discovered to have used "doublespeak", and this is news?

Kranky

"Are the Americans completely nuts?"

Yes, yes we are.

BHO represents at best, an empty suit. At worst, he is a replay of the failed Carter administration, which gave us so many long lasting memories of his failure.

BHO is dangerous in that his naivete' is striking in breadth, his advisors do not represent main stream thought or action, and often have significant agendas of their own. These agendas do not bode well for Americans, for America's friends and allies.

BHO's websites are full of seriously deranged hate mongers, and what most normal Americans call "troofers", those that have a pathological belief in one or more of several obviously contradictory (and obviously wrong) conspiracy theories surrounding 9/11, Israel, Jews, and so forth. BHO's staff is working overtime to hide, remove, and gloss over these things. It isn't one or two, it is dozens that have been discovered to date. More are discovered daily. BHO's fellow travelers have revealed themselves, just as BHO himself reveals himself with every flip-flop and lack of principled stand on important issues.

Yes, we are collectively insane as a nation. My fervent hope is that we are not also collectively suicidal enough to vote BHO in to the presidency.

DeLayne

Melanie,

In answer to your question: many of us are nuts; but not all. Our upcoming presidential election will supply you with the percentages.

Cheers from the US.

field

Leon -

I was responding to what Ann said. She stated:

"Jordan was originally part of the original mandate of Palestine."

That is plainly not the case .

As you make clear the eastern boundary of the Mandate was left unclear in the original document.

As for Jewish National Home being a euphemism, no one can be in doubt that Zionists always envisaged a Jewish state in Palestine from 1917 onwards.

However, that is not the same as saying the Mandate provided for creation of a Jewish state.

I think it is clear that the Mandate allowed for development of Jewish self rule to a large degree. However, it also made plain there was another community in the territory. Nowhere does it say that this other community is going to be subject to Jewish rule of expelled from the territory. Accordingly it is reasonable to conclude that the Mandate did not provide for the Jewish people to take over the whole territory for its own state.

Not surprisingly the UN on its founding followed that logic and provided for a two state solution which has always been the best basis for peace.

Familiar Clown

This bright, nimble, black, eloquent and comprehending being - Jack Frost dancing bespangled in the sunshine.

Leon

Field, even the leading Arab nationalist figure of the day, the Emir Feisal, attests to the fact that the plan was that eventually there would be a Jewish state in the entire area of the Mandate, with the remaining territories to comprise an Arab state.
The British, however, failed to honour their undertakings both to the Arabs and the Jews.
The Jews threw off the British colonial yoke and declared their independence. The Arabs tried to push them into the sea, but failed. Then they began posturing as victims and continue to do so to this day.

Rich

"Are the Americans completely nuts?" Takes one to know one, Mel.

Jerry

Howard,
Your response is an absurdity. Did your read the article or did the meaning of it just whiz past you?

CincileReurne

Hello. Gargantuan job. I did not watch this on a Wednesday. This is a large story. Thanks!

Nexterate

You recollect 18 more century