Paradise lost

Nice Jewish Girl

Melanie, Thank you AS ALWAYS for drawing attention to this. I found these sentences particularly sad (but oh so true):

"Israel faces an intensified campaign of delegitimisation, demonisation and double standards. Britain has become a hotbed for radical anti-Israeli views and a haven for disingenuous calls for a 'One state solution', a euphemistic name for a movement advocating Israel's destruction.

"Those who propagate this notion distort Israel's past while categorically denying Israel's right to exist as a liberal Jewish-Democratic state. No other country in the world is constantly forced to justify its own existence."

With people like you willing to fight Israel's corner, at least some balance is being restored.

Thank you very much!

Scipio

I keep hoping that the BBC would be privatized.

peter watkins

Poor Little Israel.

And remind me, how many Israelis have been killed by those home made rockets?

And how many Palestinians have been killed by F-16s, tanks, bulldozers, drones, should I go on?

Wilf

The BBC's bias on this subject has been in place for YEARS.

I never thought I would actually come round to the idea of the privatisation of the BBC, but I can no longer see any viable alternative.

To Peter Watkins: There's only one cause of the Palestinian deaths you refer to - Palestinian/Arab/Islamist violence and hatred towards Israel and the Jews.

Why would any right-minded person opt for hatred and terror over peace and democracy?

Kevyn Bodman

The BBC certainly regarded the Ron Prosor article as news. I heard it reported on the World Service today.
The editorial departments in the BBC might be separate, but the World Service and the Telegraph made the right call.

liamalpha

Peter Watkins,

Not many Israelis have been killed by those rockets - yet. But the lives of tens of thousands have been ruined. You try to live under a barrage of "Home made" rockets (by the way, they are now using standard Iranian manufactured missiles) and see how you run a business, go to work, send your kids to school etc.
As to Palestinians killed, well, maybe if "militants" didn't fire "home made" rockets, they'd still be alive.
As the Middle-East saying goes:
If the Arabs put down their arms there will be peace. If Israel puts down its arms there will be no Israel"

pete woodhouse

Mr Watkins.....what exactly are you trying to say....is this a proportional response argument or are you saying that palestinian terrorism is harmless.
a responsible state can not just defend itself, it must attempt to ensure that the attacks cease, and surrounded as israel is by enemies it cannot show weakness. the deaths on both sides however will stop when the palestinians end their terror campaign. israel has shown it's willingness in this regard, palestine has yet to do so

Charlene Hale

The fact that they actually paid a man who is a crazy fabricator of lies which any child should be able to pick up says it all. Just how low can the BBC go beggars belief. However by their actions they show their true colours have been nailed to the inversion of reality, lies, and unintelliegent garbage for a dumbed down credulous populace who want to escape reality and are will believe anything absurd, ludicrous and not the truth. However Israel will survive because the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob is for Israel no matter what man thinks or says and those who oppose Israel are on a collision course with God.

Joshua

"And how many Palestinians have been killed by F-16s, tanks, bulldozers, drones, should I go on?"

And how many Brits have been killed by Serbs, Afghans and Iraqis, and how many of them have been killed by British planes, tanks, bombs, missiles, drones, etc?

If morality is purely down to numbers of civilians dying on either side in a war, then it was surely a very bad thing that Britain and the United States beat Germany in World War II.

Thinkster

A question: OK, this is all getting a little out of hand, with even the government (of the people, for the people?) conceding to propaganda in their comments on the Church earlier this week. (Shocking stuff on its own!) And the BBC so deeply complicit in information management through its news content and the cleverly scripted plots of several episodes of Dr. Who (clever attempts to re-write history and bash Christianity from my analysis) - it is hard for the easily lead populace to tell the wood from the trees. Which begs the question: What are we going to do about it?

Keep writing columns and supporting each other on blogs so we feel better and hope it goes way?

In our gentle tea calmed British hearts some of us probably know deep down what will end up happening if a time comes when the tea calmed concerned are finally pushed over the edge and all patience and 'hope' is exhausted: Civil strife. (Meaning coffee will probably become the preferred beverage.)

However, by then, the networked intelligent face tracking CCTV cameras, credit card records / DNA databases and whatnot will allow the undesirables (read: enlightened) to be tracked down, arrested for 'minor' offenses (40mph in 30 zone, over filling rubbish bin etc) and then fined into bankruptcy rendering said individuals powerless to stand their ground because they will be too busy trying to get by to blog, writer letters or run for PM. From what I understand from the newspapers, several well meaning intelligent middle class people have already begun to suffer this fate - while people whose lies threaten truth are being treated like royalty.

Hang on! It's sunny outside, the sexy new iPhone will be available soon and Pret continue to expand and offer great healthy snacks, so perhaps all is just dandy and we have nothing to worry about at all...

Stanislav Koblinski

peter watkins,

Yes, please do go on and prove Melanie's and Ambassador Prosor's point.

Jon_Boy

The BBC is far more dangerous than just havinga blatant anti Israel bias.

The BBC is in fact a mouth piece for all general worldwide Islamist policies.

A year or two ago I saw a heavy handed hatchet job done on Thailand with the sole aim f convincing the British public that the Islamic insurgency in Thailand is due to Buddhist intolerance.

The BBC has been completely co opted by militant and nationalist Islam. They also indulge in clumsy social engineering experiments under the banner of 'issue driven dramas'.

The bBC is an abonimation as in this country we are forced to pay for and fund this politically perverted gravy train.

All those who dislike Melanie, well you don't have to fund her or read her blog.

The same goes for newspapers or news channels like fox, sky, cnn or the BBC's sister channel Al Jazeera.

And oh yes Peter Watkins I haven't heard that one before. I am also sure Melanie hasn't heard that political football chant before either and will be forced to rethink her views over that origionolly clever observation.

Mr Watkins don't expect me or any of my descendent to come to your rescue when you are having to put the Islamic fires out on your children's backs. I will hopefully have emigrated by then and be holding up my middle finger in your direction.

Paul

Peter Watkins' view that Israel deserves to be assaulted: the case in a nutshell.

Joseph

Peter Watkins,

The amount of Palestinians killed by Israel is miniscule compared to the amount of innocent Arabs murdered by groups like Hamas, Hezbollah, The Iranian Regime, The Muslim Brotherhood, Saddam Hussein, and on and on and on.
Of course, the BBC and people like you don't care about facts, history, and perspective when it comes to Jews defending themselves from people who subscribe to a genocidal theology that predates the modern creation of Israel and indeed, was a direct cause of its creation. Over 800,000 thousand Jewish Refugees were driven from their ancentral homelands from Arab lands in the last five decades, but of course, they don't matter either, because they are Jews (or just part of a Zionist plot as all the great British Intellectuals believe).

The Koran itself mentions the Jews as living in Arabia. Where are the Jews of Arabia mentioned in the Koran today? Just who is ethnically cleansing who?

And what about the MILLIONS of people murdered by muslims since the creation of Israel. In Pakistan, in the Sudan, In Iran and Iraq, in Algeria, in Oman....

The amount of Palestinians killed by Israelis is a tiny percent of the Millions of Muslims killed by people with guns and swords in the Middle East today. Every innocent life lost is a tragedy and wrong, so if you actually cared about Muslim Arabs, you would join Melanie Phillips in the fight against the hateful Ideology dominating that region and encouraged by ignorant people like you.

Shall I go on?

Beedeekay

What surprised me was to see the same anti - Israel vitriol that one expects to find on CIF on the Telegraph website.

It proves the old theory that if the BBC and its like spread their malicioud falsehoods often enough, they become accepted as facts and Israel stands no chance whatsoever of getting a fair hearing in the UK.

Harvey

Aren't we all dreadful?

How do we live with outselve?

And as for that BBC - should be closed down for cheek.

rme

Adam B.

The anti-Israel/anti-West/anti-Christian/anti-Jewish/anti-American bias at the BBC has become institutionalized. Why am I forced to be a customer of an organization I not only disagree with, but have actually come to despise? It is an absurd state of affairs. The licence fee is a throwback to the 1950's. The power of the BBC (and the hatred it espouses)will only be smashed once the licence fee is made voluntary i.e. you can actually choose whether to be a customer of the BBC. Surely that's not too much to ask for in a free society.

Sam

Melanie, BBC banned a SECOND poster who made a new post on the subject and this time linking to the Telegraph News item and so ensuring it couldn't be construed as 'opinion'. Yes, they banned that one too! http://theymadeitup.squarespace.com/the-latest-news-and-discussion/2008/6/10/bbc-bans-second-attempt-to-discuss-ron-prosor-interview.html

Alcuin

The issue of moderation was raised over at Harry's Place yesterday. Commenter "Maven" believes that moderation of both CiF and 5Live is done by a subcontractor, possibly the same one. It is suggested that the company is run by an Asian, and could even be done on the suc-continent. It is further suggested that certain posters, usually to the right of center, are selectively filtered out before moderation, and that their views are not even considered. CiF is of course, at liberty to do such things, the BBC is not. If true, this cound explain a lot of things, and warrants a full response from the BBC.

Sam

Poor Little Israel.

And remind me, how many Israelis have been killed by those home made rockets?

And how many Palestinians have been killed by F-16s, tanks, bulldozers, drones, should I go on? Yes, if there are a million volts involved. It would serve Hamas right if Israel issued a proportional response of 1,400 missiles and around 700 mortar shells but with targetting disabled so that we can say that no Palestinians are deliberately targetted.

Shaun Pilkington

Its a bit of an odd one. Melanie's remark that the context of events is not reported is undeniably true, whatever your political viewpoint. The fact is that our news, in particular broadcast news, is built around 20second consumption - if you can't get the message over in 20 seconds, lets not do it. This means that people try to make things simple, black and white, good or evil, or in this case an apparent military mismatch David and Goliath. And the British do like to support a perceived underdog because ultimately we're nice people. So, with a full nation state on the one hand and a ragbag bunch of fanatics, er freedom fighters and some conveniently dead children on the other, the sides seem set. Context, nuance, ideology and fact takes a back seat to the ability to transmit a simple story in a short period of time.

This is then exaccerbated by the fact that the BBC is, or feels, obligated to present both sides of every argument, even where there is just one side. So people who think road accidents are bad are pitched against those who want to right to speak on the phone, espousers of truths like the holocaust, muslim involvent in 9/11 and 7/7 and so on *must* be pitched against those who deny those things in the name of balance. Which is where common sense leaves the room as some facts are just facts. Argue opinion as much as you like but deny facts and look silly.

Ann

Scipio, I keep hoping the BBC would be abolished. It is a disgraceful institution, constantly in breach of its statutory charter - and lifting two fingers to the people who pay for it all.

ndm

Let us not forget that the Israeli Ambassador is a propagandist for his nation. His job is to distract our attention from the shameful and despicable manner in which the Government he represents treats the Palestinian people. It is that treatment, and Melanie Phillips' appeasement of it, that Ron Prosor should be shocked about.

Ann

"And remind me, how many Israelis have been killed by those home made rockets?"

The usual ignorant screeching. They are not 'home made', and that's not even relevant: they have murdered a great many Israelis.

To this kind of poster, Israel must not retaliate against people who launch attack after attack on it. After all, the people murdered by those rockets are only Jews. They should take it and say thank you.

ndm

Ann writes that the Palestinians "have murdered a great many Israelis."

Indeed that is true, but the Israelis have murdered a far larger number of Palestinian civilians - always by "accident," of course. I believe it is still true that the Israelis killed more Palestinians in just one night, when 17 members of a family were wiped out, than the number of Israelis killed in all Palestinian rocket attacks in the last eight years.

Verity

To those who don't like Melanie, why don't you cancel your subscription to this blog? Demand your money back!

Jon_Boy you are correct. The BBC is a 100% Islamisist mouthpiece. It also promotes the destruction of the nuclear family with a husband and wife and children. It has also promoted the total sidelining of men in the family and in schools. (How many teachers in state schools are men?)

The BBC is the Gramscian mouthpiece and for this it should be destroyed. Not privatised. Controlled explosion and then left as brownfield sites for five years to decontaminate the ground from the toxins that have seeped in over the decades.

It is a loathesome, toxic outfit to which, for reasons I simply do not understand, the British are required to pay tribute. Knife murderers and stalkers get are sentenced to "community service". People who don't pay their licence fee go to prison.

How on earth did this outfit attain such ascendancy?

EDDIE

This evening on BBC radio 4 they had two people discussing the Ambassadors article ( I forget their names) but both were supposed to be media watchers. There was a pro Israel person who argued a fair case, but the Arab media character was the usual fanatic who argued that there was actually bias against the Palestinians. The whole setup was typical of BBC bias. It was amazing.

Sam

Ann writes that the Palestinians "have murdered a great many Israelis."

Indeed that is true, but the Israelis have murdered a far larger number of Palestinian civilians - always by "accident," of course. I believe it is still true that the Israelis killed more Palestinians in just one night, when 17 members of a family were wiped out, than the number of Israelis killed in all Palestinian rocket attacks in the last eight years. Lets just correct this. I don't think that Israelis have murdered more than a handful of Palestinians, while Palestinians have certainly murdered over 1,000 Israelis. The 'murdered' Palestinians have been victims of settlers attacking Palestinians or fanatics like the Israeli who shot people in a Mosque. But there are clearly NOT thousands of Palestinians murdered by Israel

Al Ramy

Those familiar with the Israeli-Arab scene know that the entire British media is acting in a patently biased and partisan way. Reporters make up stories, paste graphic enhancements to photos, help terrorists with information, logistics, transport, and ideas not to mention collaborate on making up and staging stories. Sadly, the Israeli Government is manned by ineffectual wimps, because if it was a normal country the entire British contingency would have been barred from operating there based on the numerous libelous stories that they printed, not just critical but utterly made up stories. There is no one in the current establishment that can take on the overseas press, and as the Cabinet is staffed by very corrupt individuals none is prepared to take any initiative. It was Danny Seaman, the so called acting "Director" of the Government Press Office, a glorified bureaucrat with few credentials who stood finally came out of the closet and began to make a few noises. Do not expect much as long as Ehood Olmert is accepting stuffed envelopes.

Adam B.

ndm, you fall into the classic trap of making no distinction between those deliberately targeted for death(Israeli civilians) and those who are tragically killed in fighting in populated areas (unfortunately where Hamas and Islamic Jihad terrorists operate and hide). Following your logic, all civilians killed in wars are "murdered". Murder means the killing is deliberate and pre-meditated. If you believe this, then almost every country on earth has "murdered" whilst fighting a war, however justifiably. Do you believe Britain "murdered" thousands of French civilians when the RAF bombed the railways and ports used by the Nazis?

London Calling

I support Israel’s right to live in peace and I support the Human rights of citizens on both sides
of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and whilst I agree that biased Media corrupts Truth, there’s no getting away from the fact that living in and being trapped in a ghetto existence as Palestinians are in Gaza and the Human suffering this has caused is unacceptable, and this is the route cause in my view of the distain towards Israel, especially considering the experience endured in Jewish Ghettos in WW2, and to put forward the argument that all Palestinians brought it upon themselves doesn’t wash anymore, especially when we then we know the citizens of Israel have water, food and electricity etc, and a biased BBC cannot make that up, because it’s the Truth.

The British people are not all Anti Israel, but don’t expect them to just accept one view, Paradise is the whole truth and nothing but the truth and I'm afraid all conflicts have lies and untruths and blood on their hands, accidents or no accidents.

I am proud to be British and also ashamed at times also, but at least I'm honest enough to admit injustice when I see it and not claim Britain was, or ever shall be a Paradise.

London Calling

I support Israel’s right to live in peace and I support the Human rights of citizens on both sides
of the Palestinian/Israeli conflict and whilst I agree that biased Media corrupts Truth, there’s no getting away from the fact that living in and being trapped in a ghetto existence as Palestinians are in Gaza and the Human suffering this has caused is unacceptable, and this is the route cause in my view of the distain towards Israel, especially considering the experience endured in Jewish Ghettos in WW2, and to put forward the argument that all Palestinians brought it upon themselves doesn’t wash anymore, especially when we then we know the citizens of Israel have water, food and electricity etc, and a biased BBC cannot make that up, because it’s the Truth.

The British people are not all Anti Israel, but don’t expect them to just accept one view, Paradise is the whole truth and nothing but the truth and I'm afraid all conflicts have lies and untruths and blood on their hands, accidents or no accidents.

I am proud to be British and also ashamed at times also, but at least I'm honest enough to admit injustice when I see it and not claim Britain was, or ever shall be a Paradise.

Unity

Melanie:

Can I clarify something here.

The BBC were unaware that Kollerstrom is a Holocaust Denier at the time they interviewed him for the programme.

I know this for a fact as I'm one of the left-wing bloggers who broke the story that resulted in UCL cutting him loose and we were accused by his fellow conspiracy nuts of trying to smear him in order to get him pulled from the film - which isn't true, we outed him simply because he is a holocaust denier.

This was after he had been interviewed.

Kollerstrom's writings on the Holocaust were covered, initially, by Blairwatch, Rachel North and Johnny Void.

I then got involved when Kollerstrom complained about comments which suggested he might be a Neo-Nazi sympathiser, and demonstrated that all his source material was derived from Neo-Nazi authors and websites, after which Mr Eugenides blogged the story on Jewcy. This was all before UCL terminated his honorary fellowship.

From there the story spread to the Jewish chronicle, where it was covered by David Aaronovich, and then to the Guardian, where Nick Cohen joined the fray.

Kollerstrom's appalling article on Auschwitz was then featured on the website of Press TV, which you may know is funded by the Iranian government. I spotted that one and blogged the story, as did David T at Harry's Place, after which it was also covered by the Jerusalem Post. On this last element, you might want to ask Andrew Gilligan why he's happy to present a show on Press TV when it openly ran Kollerstrom's article under an editoral castigating UCL for academic censorship.

If you cast around, you'll also find that I debated UCL's action, supporting them of course, on Index on Censorship, against Brendan O'Neill of Spiked.

I don't know what tack the BBC's documentary will take - hopefully it will set out to debunk Kollerstrom's mad theories about 9/11 and 7/7 - but whatever tack it takes, it can't be faulted on the Holocaust denial issue as his views only became public knowledge after he'd been filmed.

George

So Mr. Watkins wants to play the numbers game. In that case, I presume that he would agree that Israel should only be required to hand over ONE prisoner for the return of Gilad Shalit, and only TWO prisoners for the return of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev.

Rachel North

The BBC conspiracy files programme - in which I took part - without payment -looks at the sickening, inaccurate, antisemitic, racist, ludicrous conspiracy theories surrounding 7/7 - and debunks them. In doing so, it is doing us a service. Because these theories, so far unchallenged, are circulating widely on the internet and gaining popularity, particularly amongst some Muslims, who are buying into the idea that the bombings were an M15/Mossad/CIA trick to discredit the Muslim community. This is ridiculous - and dangerous. We rely on intelligence and a good relationship of trust with the UK Muslim community in the fight to identify and prevent terrorists and terror attacks. We saw recently how a 19 year old man, allegedly making an explosive suicide vest, who was not on the radar of M15, was shopped to Bristol police, leading to his arrest, by local Muslims.

It is about time these distasteful lies about 7/7 and 9/11 were put to bed. They are dangerous, distressing to the victims and damaging to our security.

The loathesome opinions of Kollerstrom and his fellow-travellers needed to be exposed. Too often, antisemitism and hateful paranoia are at the heart of the 9/11 and 7/7 'Truth' movement campaigning to put about the lie that there is no such thing as Islamist religious terrorism.

Their tactics include abusing and bullying and harassing victims and families in order to try to find 'evidence' for their wild ideas.

I am pleased that the BBC is giong to show them up for what they are. It is distasteful to have to do it, but it needs to be done.
It is a shame we have not had a proper inquiry into 7/7 which many of the families and survivors are asking for. In the absence of inquets and an inquiry, conspiracy theories take hold.

pereunt et imputantur

England is still remarkably green but no longer quite as pleasant. Destroyed for the most part by the noble intentions of the welfare state. There has been a demographic earthquake. The fatherless third generation of post WW2 welfare dependents are busy breeding the fatherless fourth. With the lack of any intelligent immigration policy combined with generous welfare handouts and social housing Britain IS utopia for those untroubled high taxes and the desire to work. A lethal dose of multiculturalism has led to de facto apartheid, no go areas and bombs on the streets. The NHS is reportedly killing more people than it is curing. After 40 years of being used as a political football state education is in ruins. The BBC? Don't get me started ....

Nobody is accountable to anybody for anything anymore whilst everybody is entitled to everything for nothing at somebody else’s expense!

AND Ron thinks he's got problems!

Dov

I was talking to a member of the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign a while back and it's interesting how they think that the BBC is pro Israel. Other anti Israel people seem to think this too from my experience.

Dov

I was talking to a member of the Palestinian Solidarity Campaign a while back and it's interesting how they think that the BBC is pro Israel. Other anti Israel people seem to think this too from my experience.

Harvey

Peter Watkins

If we are talking about ratios of dead and injured ,then Israel has some way to go before it matches the British in WW2 when they fire bombed Dresden killing 100,000 in one night.

You seem to have overlooked the fact that Hamas and its cohorts are specifically looking to kill Israeli civilians ,men women children whereas the response is always to try to eliminate the terrorists responsible for these war crimes.

The sad reality is that Hamas choose to launch their rockets from built up areas knowing but caring little for the resulting collateral damage .Their mindset is that these unfortunates become Martyrs in any case. They also use it to further their own propoganda.

Dee Ranged

"The BBC is the Gramscian mouthpiece and for this it should be destroyed."

Hear, hear!

Dee Ranged

pereunt et imputantur

Quite remarkable stuff.

.

davod

"Truth, there’s no getting away from the fact that living in and being trapped in a ghetto existence as Palestinians are in Gaza and the Human suffering this has caused is unacceptable,..."

Sorry mate:

Prior to the return of Arafat the Palestinian Occupied territories had the highest standard of living of most Arab states. The literacy rate was also higher than most.

Despite the "oppressive" Israeli presence, the Palestinians had a robust political discussion with a number of political parties.

After the return of Arafat, politics became quite simple for the politicians, join his party or die.

The standard of living went down and Palestinians suffer to this day. You see, Arafat and his cronies brought to the table nothing new and took every benefit the Palestinians had acheived, including most of the aid money.

davod

"The sad reality is that Hamas choose to launch their rockets from built up areas knowing but caring little for the resulting collateral damage ..."

If the world community was at all interested in easing the suffering of the Palestinians it might spend some time attacking the people who hide behind civilians.

Brian

'London Calling' seems to be a classic example of someone whose opinions of Israel have been unconsiously forged by anti-Israel bias and untruth in the British media. This is what s/he wrote above.

London Calling
June 11th, 2008 12:18am
(quote) '...and whilst I agree that biased Media corrupts Truth, there’s no getting away from the fact that living in and being trapped in a ghetto existence as Palestinians are in Gaza and the Human suffering this has caused is unacceptable, and this is the route cause in my view of the distain towards Israel, especially considering the experience endured in Jewish Ghettos in WW2, and to put forward the argument that all Palestinians brought it upon themselves doesn’t wash anymore, especially when we then we know the citizens of Israel have water, food and electricity etc, and a biased BBC cannot make that up, because it’s the Truth.(unquote)

Well, unfortunately the situation you describe is largely a distortion of 'the Truth'.

Gaza is historically part of the land of Israel and and the fact that the Arabs still call it by its Jewish name Gaza is not given much publicity. Israel chose, unilaterally, to withdraw from Gaza over two years ago. Jews who lived there were rounded up by Israeli troops and police and forcibly removed to other parts of Israel.

The mainstream media depicted these 'stubborn' people as 'settlers'. To my mind they were rather less 'settlers' than the Muslim settlers in Britain whom the same pro-Muslim media regard as our fellow citizens with a perfect right to settle here (unlike those Jews in Israel).

When Israel voluntarily evacuated Gaza (ie its own territory) Israelis left behind market gardens and two synagogues. The market gardens could have provided a very useful source of Gazan food and commerce while the synagogues were religious buildings that could easily have been left in peace or converted into mosques or churches.

Within a day of Israel's evacuation the market gardens had been destroyed and the synagogues had been desecrated and destroyed (as has been happening to churches in Kosovo recently).

The people of the newly evacuated Gaza were given the chance to elect a government by the Palestinian Authority based in the West Bank. They overwhelmingly elected Hamas - a party which is dedicated not merely to the destruction of Israel but to the destruction of every Jew in the world. This is not something one can dispute: it is written into the Hamas Charter.

Since there is no evidence that Hamas has changed its goals (and since every rocket fired into Israel reinforces this belief) the question must be faced: what is Israel supposed to do? Most countries finding themselves in Israel's position (except currently there aren't any I can think of) would simply have bombed Gaza into oblivion. After all, Iran, a country with no territorial claims on Israel is threatening to nuke it (which would erase the populations of Gaza and the West Bank as well, but that hasn't surfaced in the MSM which is intent on arguing about the translations of what the Iranian President said and other less than convincing diversionary tactics).

'London Calling' - you equate the Gazan residents with the Jews of the Warsaw Ghetto. You ignore several key facts which even the mainstream media have to mention occasionally, even though it is usually when reporting Israel has cut back electricity, closed the crossings to people needing medical treatment in Israeli hospitals, etc. This normally only happens following terrorist attacks on Israel.

The German nazis were not supplying the Warsaw Ghetto with the utilities and medical help that Israel has and still provides Gaza, and unlike Warsaw Ghetto, the Gaza enclave also has a crossing between and a border with a theoretically friendly state - ie Egypt.

Why doesn't the media tell us that the Egyptian army prevent Gazans from crossing into Egypt? When the border wall was breached a few weeks ago the response of Egyptian troops was to shoot live bullets into fellow Muslims trying to get into Egypt for shopping trips. We don't know exactly how many Gazans were killed and wounded but it is fair to surmise that Hamas would have screamed figures to the world had it been Israeli troops doing the shooting.

Few people I talk to seem aware of the fact that it is entirely due to Israeli generosity that Gaza receives as much help as it does from Israel.

Elliott Joseph

I agree with you absolutely. The propaganda war against Israel and America is now so complete that many of my contemporaries are incapable even of framing a balanced discussion about them.

The liberal media poses a much more significant threat to the soul of this country than the unions ever did. An incoming Conservative government should privatise the BBC.

Ann

Dov, a quick perusal of the medacious propaganda masquerading as 'History of Israel' on the BBC website should quickly dispell that illusion, assuming of course that the reader has some acquaintance with what really happened. Another way to hit that one on the head is to look at how the BBC report on the murder of Israelis by rockets from Gaza. The Israeli response is always given a lot more prominence than the murders that caused the response. The rocket attacks are played down, and often mentioned only as a brief afterthought. Indeed, sometimes they are airbrushed out completely.

Harvela

I note that there is another Harvey on this site . As we appear to be batting on the same team and in order to avoid any undue confusion and possible compromise of intellectual property ,i will henceforth be known as Harvela.

Soreofhing

The BBC is the very worst and biased media company in the world.
Except for all the others, that is.

Rosemarie

"The BBC treats conspiracy crackpots like this as legitimate sources of information because it produces programmes which, merely by investigating them, give credence to crackpot conspiracy theories involving Americans."

You can say that again. Who can forget "The Power of Nighhtmares"? I'm still waiting for it to be repeated. After all, it won lots of awards and was feted by the metropolitan elite. Why aren't the BBC proudly airing it again? Oh, I forgot - that little thing called 7/7 came along. Isn't real life awful, especially if you're a documentary maker and don't know what you're talking about?

Stuff it, though, eh? Why not just give the programme-maker Adam Curtis another big budget to churn out three more hours of anti-Americanism - and they did: "The Trap - What Happened to our Dream of Freedom".

I'll tell you where my dream of freedom went, Adam, up the BBC's own fundament with me forced to pay for it on pain of being sent to prison if I failed to pay my licence fee.

peter watkins

HarveyPeter Watkins

Interesting to see you comparing war crimes. Israel 5000 Palestinians, England 100,000 Dresdners, US 1 million Vietnamese etc.

Regarding your other points;

Hamas you say targets civilians, whereas Israel targets Hamas. That would account, presumably, for the regularity with which Israel kills Palestinian civilians - I think about 5000 since the Intifada?

Furthermore, Israel constrains Palestinians ith such barbarity that even Desmond Tutu had to get up and speak openly about it.
But I guess the deliberate provocation of Hamas does not count in your book.

And I love your post rationalisation of the Palestinian psyche - Hamas excuse the deaths of their children at the hands of the IDF for PR purposes.

What surreal chutzpah.
What disgraceful arrrogance.

Clive

There a number of major deceptions active in today's world: man-made Global Warming, 'Sustainable Development', the so-called 'War on Terror', the supposed death of Communism and Cold War, Darwinism. But I am inclined to think that perhaps the most universal, and pervasive and loathsome is the web of lies centred on Israel and the Jewish people.

It never ceases to be a source of wonder to me that so many (but not all) folk who are so well informed and have done such sterling work in exposing some of the lies and disinformation surrounding the above listed issues, have then fallen victim to the deception regarding this tiny country in the Middle-East.

One of the proximate causes is the billions of oil-dollars that Arab Muslims have spent on anti-Israel propaganda over decades, and the willingness of westerners to swallow this whole.

It is said that Jew-hatred is the oldest hatred in the world. I believe this to be so because the ultimate root of anti-semitism is spiritual - demonic to be precise. Nations come and nations go; people come and people go - but the spirit continues on. The assault on Israel comes from every quarter: left and right, Christian and non-Christian, Jew and Gentile, conspiracy-theorist and non conspiracy-theorist.

Ravi

peter wabbit, I hear this pathetic argument about how many Palestinians killed by israel as being some indication of morals. In fact it IS to do with morals and its Palestinian morality in continual terrorist attacks against Israel drawing martyrdom of their terrorists and civilians. It would not matter is 100,000 Palestinians were killed by Israel responses because that is what they are - responses. Its cause and effect. No terrorism then no response. "But nasty Israel occupies their country?" the wabbbits will say. No! They don't! Its actually ALL Jewish Mandated Territory. Leaving that aside then why are the Palestinians killing for something they get by negotiation? Why don't they follow the Roadmap?

Harvela

Peter Watkins

Re numbers .

As has been previously stated ,Israel responds to terrorist attack by endeavouring to target operatives and the chain of command . This is rendered the more difficult by Hamas positioning their personnel in built up areas .If there were no attacks on Israel there would be no response. The alternative is for Israel to forego the right to strike back,which is the due right of any soverign nation which finds itself at war . Perhaps you, like many are somewhat aggrieved by Israels 'Right of Reply ' Well Tough!

Do not think for one moment that the disparity in numbers is not for the want of trying.

Every day new attempts to murder Israelis by homicide bombings are thwarted by theIDF and the security agencies.

In Gaza rockets are launched on a daily basis into Israel not to scare but in the absolute hope that as many Israelis are killed as possible.

I question whether you were as vociferous in your denounciation of Russia when it obliterated Chechyna several years ago.I think not.

As for Palestinian constraint,this was not the case prior to the Intifada . Again you must look at cause and effect.Since the Intifada began and at its height Palestinian terrorists were able to cross the open border with impunity in order to bomb buses restaurants ,hotels ,shopping malls etc killing 1800 Israelis in the process . Is it any wonder that Israel has placed constraints resulting in Palestinian hardship.

Prior to the Intifada there was a flourishing trade between the Palestinians and Israel which included tourism and over 100,000 Palestinians crossing the border each day to work in Israel. The Intifada brought that to a close.

You seem to forget that Israel vacated Gaza in 2005 leaving behind a thriving agricultural infra structure .Those greenhouses and fields have not unsurprisingly been turned into rocket factories and launch sites.

Most Israelis would ,and have always expressed a desire for a two state solution .The sad reality is that any compromise by Israel is viewed by the Palestinians as another victory in the struggle for Israel eventual demise.

Adam B.

Rosemarie, couldn't agree more. "The Power of Nightmares" was worthy of the Soviet Union's propaganda machine.

Ravi

Just like to point out that making a statement like "Israel has murdered over 5,000 Palestinians" is a blood-libel which is clearly directed towards Jews and hence is Antisemitic. When it becomes common and acceptable to state that the Allies murdered x million people in Europe then we might start redefining the meaning of word "murder".

Stanislav Koblinski

Ambassador Prosor refers to the UK, of which Wales is a part:

Israeli visit sparks boycott call

Ann

"Furthermore, Israel constrains Palestinians ith such barbarity that even Desmond Tutu had to get up and speak openly about it"

Yes, the ignorant clown who knows nothing about the ME, and thinks that the Arabs are people of colour who are mistreated by whites. An idiot.

"But I guess the deliberate provocation of Hamas does not count in your book"

For you, like for many people, Israelis minding their own business in their own country is 'provocation'. There is a name for that.

Richard

Peter Watkins, you should be ashamed of yourself. The Palestinians killed by the Israelis tend on the whole to be terrorists. The Palestinians try and kill civilians.
Try to learn the difference.

Elle Kadima

I have tested out the BBC's "give us your view" forums on the BBC News website. I deliberately chose 2 different pseudonames: one a militaristic one, the other an Islamic-sounding name. I made rational, valid, and topical comments under both. No prizes for guessing which one was posted and which ones postings are never posted!!!

Patrick Calthrop

Let us remember that the Palestinian problem came into being because at the formation of the State of Israel, very many of the Arabs living in Palestine at that time were thrown off their land by the victorious Jews without anywhere else to go. And many were subsequently crammed into the Gaza Strip (very small and crowded) and the West Bank, a rather larger area which used to be part of Jordan and sounds OK except that Jewish settlers keep moving in illegally (according to Israeli law) and kicking them off the best land. No doubt this belief is the unfortunate result of BBC anti-Israel bias, so could someone please correct me on the above ?

Dave M

It's not just Israel either. Basically any country that confronts Islamic radicalism head on or adheres to free expression and democracy is slandered in this country so as not to fall out of favour with extremist Islam. A few examples will suffice: Did anyone notice the day after the London bombings several newspapers and especially the BBC showed the same images of Muslim victims of the said bombings. I mean, of course, it's sad these innocent muslims were caught up in a terrorist attack but why show the same image again and again at the expense of European victims? Do these people think we really are such idiots? Evidently the idea was to somehow convince us there was no specific "targeting of westerners or non believers" involved by the Islamic terrorists because muslims got hurt too. So, we're all in it together, right? Nothing to do with radical Islam, correct? Wrong! Then, I seem to recall the Denmark media uproar when here in the U.K. they were too gutless to publish cartoons which had caused offence but had been published in France as well as other European countries. The decision to publish by those continental journals, of course, wasn't based on any malice or desire to offend but a simple act of opposition to any encroaching censorship (which Iran had called for within Europe, correct?). Yet, our cringing Government heaped praise on all our newspapers for "showing restraint" when, in actual fact, they were too plain afraid to defend press freedom as the Danes had done (by refusing to criminalise a Danish newspaper). Actually, you could go on and on with these accounts. One thing I would like to know, however, is why Beeb reporters feel obliged to dress up in Islamic garb when reporting from Iran but a similar report from Texas reveals no reporter donning a 10 gallon hat!! Or even a skull cap when in Telaviv, for that matter.

Roy

The only reason I would send a post to a BBC news blog is to have the satisfaction of knowing that some anti-American, anti-Israeli, pro-Islamic moderator will read it. For it will get no further than that. Such is the freedom that one sees disappearing before our very eyes.

Pete Hoskin

Harvela: you're right - that comment has now been taken down. I'm sorry it slipped through in the first place.

Everyone else: Harvela contacted me about a comment which could have caused offence to readers. That comment has now been taken down. Subsequent comments which quoted it have not been approved. Apologies.

phil

To all of you decent people who try to reason and respond to Mr watkins and his ilk -you are wasting your time .intelligence and knowledge -they do not care and you will not change their minds and personally I would not dignify them with a response -I believe they write their rubbish to annoy you ,not to achieve anything -there are posters here who have different views from many of us but write politely with their opinions and it serves us all well to discuss the points that are raised but not from messrs watkins ,patricia et al -I have said this before but I believe it is worth saying again -ignore them .nothing works better .

Bruce Goldman

I concur with your article. Unfortunately Australia's ABC emulates the BBC in its anti-semitic, anti Zionist reporting especially on their internet site ABC.net.au
During the last Israel/Lebanon war their reporting was blatantly biased. It is appalling our taxes fund such poor journalism.

Alexandrovich

Says phil:
"There are posters here who have different views from many of us but write politely with their opinions and it serves us all well to discuss the points that are raised..."
Before he tells me to whom I can or cannot reply, perhaps he should reflect on his own rank hypocrisy, illustrated by one of his typical replies to one of the most astute posters on this site who 'wrote politely with his opinion'. Here is phil, 'discusssing the points raised':
"why dont you mind your own business and write about things you know about instead of pontificating about a people and a state you obviously know little about. your mindset is obvious too ,so just cut to the chase say you dont like us and then we can all get on with important matters ,instead of answering your unwelcome remarks."
What's eating you phil? Tell us all what you really think for a change. Perhaps you're a little tetchy since discovering that Her Ladyship would rather be in the trenches with J. Isaacs.

Harvela

Alexandrovich

That last post was too cryptic for me .

Who is Her Ladyship and what is she doing in the trenches with J,Isacs .

I think we should be told

I hope its not my wife again!

BJ

Israel would of course, get a better press if it compled with international law by withdrawing from the Occupied Palestinian Territories and adopted the two state settlement in accordance with UN Resolution 242 and the International Court of Justice opinion on the Segregation Wall in the West Bank. The alleged bias of the BBC is not the real issue.

J. Isaacs

Alexandrovitch - You are too cryptic for me too, other than to help to persuade me to take phil's advice from now on. How's your father, Alexander?

phil

alexwhateveryourcalled - thanks for reminding me of what I said sometime ago -it equally applies to you-we never hear anything factual from you just abuse so I amuse myself with responses like this -I find you funny so keep posting we need a smile in these difficult days -what do you think of 42 days ?now there is a chance for you to use your intellect -look forward to hearing from you -ps what about dr cholesterol .do you agree with him -silly question I suppose

phil

alex----- " illustrated by one of his typical replies to one of the most astute posters on this site who 'wrote politely with his opinion'. Here is phil, 'discusssing the points raised':"
you intrigued me can you tell me who it was ,which blog and what day -I do remember writing it but cant find it .

Adam B.

BJ, do the Arab neighbours surrounding israel get a bad press from the BBC? Because they are all in breach of resolution 242, although the left never say so. And the BBC won't tell you either. For them, only Israel is ever the guilty party. The security barrier (only 5% of it is actually a wall, and that is in areas where there have been repeated sniper attacks into Israel by palestinian terrorists)has saved hundreds of lives in Israel, both Jews and Arabs. Surely that's a good thing? No terrorism = no barrier. Remember, the Israelis had endured a decade of suicide bombings before erecting it.

Adam B.

Incidentally BJ, the so-called International Court of Justice has said nothing about China's occupation of Tibet and the brutal suppression of Tibetan culture, nor the genocide in Darfur, nor the military junta in Burma etc. Why is this?

Joakim

You raise the issue of BBC "sources" and "investigation"... would someone please follow this thread. Kollerstrom cites CODOH as his main source for checking references - but he is listed as a main contributer to CODOH. Other CODOH contributers are also self appointed "experts" (un-credentialed) and cite each other as references. Does BBC check it's sources?

ndm

Although he gave away his prejudicial animus by referring to it as "so-called," Adam B asks why the International Court of Justice has said nothing about the Tibet, Darfur, Burma, etc.

The simple reason is that no competent authority has asked for either its judgment or its opinion on Tibet, Darfur, Burma, etc. So let's this up as another one of these petty comments designed to derail the discussion.

Alexandrovich

phil: just to make sure I've got this straight - because I have nothing factual to say, just abuse, I surely fall into your category of posters, to whom you exhort your compadres not to respond.

But you are exempt from this because it 'amuses' you.
I see.
'Do as I say, not as I do.'

I think your audience will be confused.

phil

Patrick C -yes I will correct you if that is, you want to know the truth ?your quote"Let us remember that the Palestinian problem came into being because at the formation of the State of Israel, very many of the Arabs living in Palestine at that time were thrown off their land by the victorious Jews without anywhere else to go "

Patrick the Arabs started the war, they could have stayed as part of the new nation of Israel on the land that belonged previously to the Ottoman empire -not them-and was mandated to British control after their defeat in world war 1 -they decided to massacre the Jewish inhabitants of the new state .left their land until the Jews were eradicated and lost ! many stayed and became citizens some no doubt were scared away but not as a policy of Israel-

ndm can write with any sort of obfuscation he wants but in the end the simple truth is a necessity and you have just read it -it is obviously not a simple matter but this is the nearest you will get and if Hamas and their friends cared about their own they would sit down and try to make peace with their enemies because enemies are what one makes peace with ,not friends----ndm can say all he likes he is not the one to draw up new boundaries ,only the two enemies will do that and each will gain and also lose that is what negotiation is about ,so maybe he will devote his energies and intellect to talking about a peace process rather than argue over borders over which he has no input .I hope this is helpful and that you are sincere in asking ,others no doubt will tell you a different story and you will have to evaluate who is telling the truth .

Dave M

Neither has the International Court of Justice had much to say about the indigenous Aboriginees in Australia or indigenous Indians of the U.S.A. Or the Falkland Islands for that matter which is another disputed territory. With reference to the Palestinians what we see is "compassion of convenience" which is a strategy to express racism towards Jews. And for that matter, speaking as a non-Jew, don't the Jews have more right to be in these territories than the Brits in Australia or European immigrants in America? I mean, we all know Jews lived in this land as far back as 1000 B.C. so they have actual roots there. I can only suggest the Beeb turns its attention to other "good causes", perhaps if they really care so much about indigenous peoples. Let's apply the same pious convictions to all nations, not just one tiny democracy.

phil

Alex I dont think any audience that we may have will be confused -you dent add anything to the discussion ,just smart remarks and abuse ,and I shouldn't reply to you ,but this time you were not abusive so I have ,but again may I say you have not answered my questions ,nor have you made it clear what you want to say here other than be rude to most of us-
join in the debate rationally and reasonably and you will find that you will get responses ,although I would say your chances are slim if you continue with abuse .I am not sure why the moderator allows you to do that but that is his privilege -i hope you will start by telling me who was the astute poster as I have lost the place where he posted .

Adam B.

ndm, my point is that the so-called ICJ (justice does not come into it) is politically driven, and what is put before it is politically driven. There is no such thing as an impartial international law. The chief justice on the case you cite comes from the Chinese legal system, a system which locks up political prosoners without charge, and who are never heard from again. What kind of person rises to the top of that legal system? One concerned with justice? The discussion is about the BBC's vitriolic hatred of Israel - it was BJ who brought up the ICJ, not me.

J. Isaacs

Alexandrovitch - Having brought me into your discussion, you have not answered my polite enquiry as to the health of your father except by referring to me in the third person as one of phil's compadres. Are you of Russian or Mexican extraction? May I, therefore, more cryptically reiterate my earlier enquiry: Is your old man a dustman? / Does 'e wear a dustman's hat? / Does 'e wear gor blimey trousers And live in a council flat? / Does 'e look a proper 'nana in 'is great big hobnail boots? / Has 'e got such a job to pull 'em on That 'e calls 'em daisy roots? / How's yer father; alright?

Harvela

I call my wife 'Her Ladyship'mainly in moments of despair.
I am none the wiser as to why she may have been in the trenches with J.Isacs.Please advise Alexandrovitch

Christopher

"And remind me, how many Israelis have been killed by those home made rockets?

And how many Palestinians have been killed by F-16s, tanks, bulldozers, drones, should I go on?"

So it's OK to try and kill civilians with home-made rockets, as long as you don't succeed too often? Murderous intent is OK, as long as you're incompetent?
Hamas actually seem to have a better record of killing innocent Arab civilians, as Thursday's 'own goal', the explosion in the Gaza rocket factory, showed. To conflate the two questions above, 'How many Palestinians have been killed by those home made rockets?' Seven people, including a four-month-old baby, is the most recent answer.

raymond joseph douglas

Peter watkins,you just don't get it do you?When israel attacks,she is trying to kill those firing the rocketsi.e terrorists.When these same terrorists fire their rockets,they are trying to kill jews, be they men,women or children deliberatly and on purpose!Israel,when they retaliate,does not.By the way,these rockets get more powerfull and sophisticated by the day.No doubt Iran is behind this.Wake up peter,stop watching the BBC news and read a bit more!

val

To Peter Watkins.
Please leave your mathematics for counting Dresden, Folkland or Iraqi victims of UK military.
As you mentioned, Israel is small and will run out of people very fast. This country is on war. And war for Israel means to protect Jewish people.

MOHAN DADDIKAR

BBC has lost its once reputed objectivity and now that organisation has been taken over by the Communists who are no better than rabid champions of Islamic fundamentalism. BBC will be very happy if Great Britian says goodbye to Christianity and get itself converted to Islam.Great Britain's reputation of its passion for truth, justice and fairply is now a part of history.

Ganpat Ram

It is certainly true that the various Jewish religions - Islam, Christianity and Judaism - have historically been extremely intolerant and exclusivist: only THEIR god is the God, no-one else's god or religion is of any worth, etc.

Sadly, all this religious hate and bigotry does come from the Mosaic religion.

Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism, the old Greek religion, are all so much more tolerant.

No Islam without Moses. No Osama Bin laden without Moses. This is often forgotten.

But all the same, while certain varieties of Judaism like Islam continue to be viciously intolerant, mainline Judaism has embraced a lot of the Greek-derived Western Enlightenment values, and is willing to live and let live.

The other great Jewish dogma, Christianity, has also been forced to become relatively tolerant by the influence of Greek tolerance on Western minds.

Only Islam remains as fiercely Jewish and Mosaic as ever. It brooks no competition.

What is to be done?

The Israel-Arab conflict is an Old Testament fight.

The land is tiny and mostly worthless, the Arabs have billions upon untold billions of oil dollars yet they cannot accept that their Jewish cousins should have a tiny corner.

What a pity ! Blame the Old Testament mentality.

Neil faren

I wonder how many of us truly consider the possibilty of goverment's around the world planning attacks such as 9/11 and the 7/7 bombings as a form of control( fear ). Our civil liberties have been taken away gradually over the years since 9/11 and only a minority of us have actually challenged the goverment or brought it out into the public eye. Just the other day i was reading an article on the bbc website where the goverment are pushing for a communications bill where they can listen to and monitor our phone calls and emails. So how far will this go? the answer is how ever far the powers that be want to take it. Mr Bush is already wiretapping his citizens phone calls and monitoring their internet usage, so if you really want your freedom do some research on the goverment it's very revealing and a hard pill to swallow.