The death of Magna Carta has been much exaggerated

agn

The problem is that any old police officer can now arrest anybody and bang them up for six weeks - the equivalent of a three-month prison sentence - *without* "the lawful judgement of his peers or the law of the land". Which part of that is so hard to understand?

Bob

An excellent piece, Melanie, with which I agree. I would add that David Davis, while prattling on about Magna Carta, is meanwhile riding roughshod over more important constitutional issues. By refusing to tolerate the results of a legitimate vote in parliament, and by hijacking by-elections in the cause of self-publicity, Davis has himself attacked two of our ancient traditions.

Kevyn Bodman

The first problem is that it's detention without charge. Without charge.
If there's evidence then bring a charge. What's the problem?
The second problem is that it is the growing power of the State being used against individuals who are presumed to be innocent until proved guilty.
It's terrorists now,but as you say yourself this is already subject to surveillance creep.
Terrorist acts, conspiring to commit terrorist acts, failing to notify police are already crimes. Those like me who oppose these measures are not in favour of letting criminals go. Investigate, charge, try, convict (maybe) and punish IF there's a conviction.
What's the problem with that?
Keep safeguards in place to protect against the State's power being abused.

Your arguments about the response to internment don't hold water.I'm 52, was politically active in my teens and early twenties and certainly wasn't old enough when internment was brought in to have informed opinions based on some experience of the way governments will often seek to extend their powers.We've got a different and more experienced population now.

And to say that David Davis 'flounced' out is silly.
And I'm delighted that figures who oppose internment are no longer marginal.

Pete

This is much more than an issue about Magna Carter and 42 days, it is about ID cards, CCTV everywhere, data mining everbody, overpowered council officials, and on and on.

This is about what kind of democracy we have and leave to our children.

There are many media commentators and bloggers, as well as members of the public, that share his views but there has not been a coherent public debate. These issues require a focal point so that they can be debated properly, David Davis has provided that. I now look forward to Labours defence of their intrusive policies.

Mr. Magoo

Problem?

Ann

"we can only achieve victory against them if we show them that our values are better"

Just which planet did he say he came from, exactly?
I can't believe that someone quite as ignorant can be in politics, despite all the evidence over the past 11 years that such people do get into government.

Jack R

Yes; Magna Carta was not specific on 28 or 42 days. In the meantime, we see the closing down of freedom of expression in e.g. Canada by a British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal - against journalist Mark Steyn and magazine Macleans, on an Islamic person's complaint. (Google 'Mark Steyn'.) Where is the solidarity for freedom in the case, Chakrabarti, Davis?

Dee Ranged

Well said Melanie.

DD has shot himself in the foot.

Already talk has shifted away from the central issue and now concentrates on DD's justification for his aberrant resignation.

Tory heads will bow embarrassingly when DD returns to the commons.

Dee Ranged

Well said Melanie.

DD has shot himself in the foot.

Already talk has shifted away from the central issue and now concentrates on DD's justification for his aberrant resignation.

Tory heads will bow embarrassingly when DD returns to the commons.

steve

Sorry but "security professionals" as you call them are divided on this issue. They are not all in favour of the 42 days. Some senior police officers, including the deputy chief constable of Avon and Somerset, opposed the extension. They are equally in position as any of the people you cite to know the risks and yet they still opposed the extension.

Jimmy Mac

Melanie, you are my blog opener every evening, I must be a groupie. Perhaps I should think for myself a bit more, and I conceit myself that do, but your reasonings are usually so well thought through that I usually agree with your viewpoint. I have little sympathy for the inmates of Gitmo, so my position is not to be confused with the bleeding heart liberal stance, however, like earlier contributors, I am very greatly concerned by the outrageous liberties taken by councils with present legislation. I DO NOT TRUST THEM!! The present abuses weigh too heavily in the scales to blindly and naievely trust government and councils to honour their obligations to us poor saps, the taxpayers.

YA

Ann - agree.

Yepp.
Give them, some values.

Then aim again, aim well, and give some more.

Commondog

Hmmm?

Do I want there to be a law allowing imprisonment of those suspected of having terrorist links, without charge for a maximum of 42 days, followed by release?

Or do I want my family to be at the mercy of terrorists who know exactly how to play the bleeding heart judicial system?

Ooh difficult one this.

London Calling

If Liberty Died in Britain when subjected to the 28 days detention and Died before that also on the 14 day detention, shouldn’t this Post be correctly named:
'Attack Against Liberty 3'

The Hysteria I witnessed was Jaqui Smith doing Gordon’s dirty work by rounding up the rebels and the arm twisting that no doubt took place in which to support her beloved Leader and Milibands super lighting return from Israel, the smell of panic wafted across London like sewage on a hot summers day, and if you didn’t smell it, blame it on sinus, pollution and pollen count has been quite high these past few days in the City.

What concerns you Melanie is Islamists, I understand that,
but to sacrifice further Liberties by introducing a law that can be used which you know and we all know gives the government further powers which they can exploit and use against British Citizens, if you are concerned as you state, why have you taken this stand against freedom for the sake of the Hysteria the Government have whipped up to save Gordon Browns political career.

Why change your Pen now? or did it have invisible in it after all?

If Liberty died, why aren’t you crying to?

Just seen the –biased- BBC news, an Israeli Human rights group have handed
Out 100 camcorder to Palestinians to video crimes against them by Israelis,
You see Liberty isn’t dead after all …

An old Palestinian woman approached by a group of young Israeli men with a baseball bat, who then attacked the woman because they had warned her to remove her goats from the boarder of a Jewish Settlement. half an hour before? Smashed up her cheekbone and fractured her arm as well as other injuries.

The Truth will out, oh Yes it will….

London Calling

If Liberty Died in Britain when subjected to the 28 days detention and Died before that also on the 14 day detention, shouldn’t this Post be correctly named:
'Attack Against Liberty 3'

The Hysteria I witnessed was Jaqui Smith doing Gordon’s dirty work by rounding up the rebels and the arm twisting that no doubt took place in which to support her beloved Leader and Milibands super lighting return from Israel, the smell of panic wafted across London like sewage on a hot summers day, and if you didn’t smell it, blame it on sinus, pollution and pollen count has been quite high these past few days in the City.

What concerns you Melanie is Islamists, I understand that,
but to sacrifice further Liberties by introducing a law that can be used which you know and we all know gives the government further powers which they can exploit and use against British Citizens, if you are concerned as you state, why have you taken this stand against freedom for the sake of the Hysteria the Government have whipped up to save Gordon Browns political career.

Why change your Pen now? or did it have invisible in it after all?

If Liberty died, why aren’t you crying to?

Just seen the –biased- BBC news, an Israeli Human rights group have handed
Out 100 camcorder to Palestinians to video crimes against them by Israelis,
You see Liberty isn’t dead after all …

An old Palestinian woman approached by a group of young Israeli men with a baseball bat, who then attacked the woman because they had warned her to remove her goats from the boarder of a Jewish Settlement. half an hour before? Smashed up her cheekbone and fractured her arm as well as other injuries.

The Truth will out, oh Yes it will….

Ann

"By refusing to tolerate the results of a legitimate vote in parliament"

Err ... since when do the results of a 'legitimate' (very doubtful term here) vote prohibit an MP from resigning? The very fact that you think so proves that parliament has become an elected dictatorship, the point that David is making.

"and by hijacking by-elections in the cause of self-publicity, Davis has himself attacked two of our ancient traditions"

Drivel. He has not 'hijacked' anything, and please don't judge everyone by your own standards. He hasn't done it for 'publicity'. He has caused himself a great deal of political damage. He had a very good prospect of being the Home Secretary within the next 2 years; now he won't be. It's called being honest and principled, something that like the vast majority of pigs we have littering the House of Commons, masquerading as MPs, you can't seem to grasp.

Captain Sensible

this pst will probably be deleted! . the media wont admit that the nanny state is lining their pockets because it's politically correct. Somebody should say enough is enough. Lets do what the french do and all strike!?!

Wilf

My immediate reaction to this news is 'what a self-aggrandising twit'.

He's successfully diverted attention away from the REAL issue of the times; the abominable NewLabour movement. Just when momentum was gathering nicely.

Now we may very well have to plough through a bout of narrow-focussing on 'divisions within the Tory leadership'. Coming on top of MEP sleaze, this news must be causing the BBC/NL 'Anointed' some very pleasurable feelings right now. What a horrible thought.

I would be very happy to have my fears come to nought, but DD had better hope that 65% of voters in his (former) constituency DON'T support 42 days.

James

"No freeman shall be taken or imprisoned or disseised or exiled or in any way destroyed, nor will we go upon him nor will we send upon him except upon the lawful judgement of his peers or the law of the land."

Melanie asks "So what’s the problem?" If Melanie doesn't see the problem, she really ought to think harder. Thanks to the presence of an unassimilable and ever-growing alien religion, the UK is in the process of repeating, on a larger scale, the terrible mistake it made in Northern Ireland by introducing internment without trial. Only two groups are pleased by the 42-day law: blind authoritarians like Melanie and Islamists like Osama bin Laden.

Francis Ingle

You're still one of my heroes, Melanie, but this time I cannot agree with you. I really cannot see how this measure will in any way make us safer - I believe it could only be of help after the horrible deed is done.

pete woodhouse

London Calling........."Just seen the –biased- BBC news, an Israeli Human rights group have handed
Out 100 camcorder to Palestinians to video crimes against them by Israelis,
You see Liberty isn’t dead after all …

An old Palestinian woman approached by a group of young Israeli men with a baseball bat, who then attacked the woman because they had warned her to remove her goats from the boarder of a Jewish Settlement. half an hour before? Smashed up her cheekbone and fractured her arm as well as other injuries.

The Truth will out, oh Yes it will…."

i hope it will, but i saw that video as well, and i'm struggling to see how 4 guys with scarves covering their heads and faces are automatically israelis. the other things that puzzle me are why the guy, faced with baseball bat weilding thugs, didn't run, and why the person filming didn't concentrate on his job when the action was going on. surely he was expecting some sort of confrontation or why was he filming at all, but as soon as he gets his big chance he starts waving the camera around?............al durah anybody?

Roy

A vote for common sense and sanity it seems to me. Any doubt at the blurry moment of crisis . . . surely, lock-em-up. If ones who think it is the end of democracy I suggest they read a little more in the close vicinity of this blog, plenty of better examples of the deprivation of British democracy/dhimmocracy.

David Mason

"No freeman shall be taken or imprisoned or disseised or exiled or in any way destroyed, nor will we go upon him nor will we send upon him except upon the lawful judgement of his peers or the law of the land.

So what’s the problem?"

The problem IS " or the law of the land." This means that a despotic government can pass any law it likes!!!

The problem IS that we do not have a proper constitution and "Bill of Rights" as in the USA.

The problem IS Dr David Kelly is DEAD

- so much for article 39 !

The problem is that we do no

KenP

In apartheid South Africa in the 60s, the Nationalist regime introduced 90-day detention without trial saying it needed the measure to defend state security, fight perceived terrorism and suppress communism. It didn't take long before mission creep saw that provision raised to 180 days. Habeas Corpus was buried. Liberals and others in the country were enraged. Many were first banned (house arrested) then held for 180 days or longer. Some died. Among the loud calls at the time to "charge or release" was the voice of Mr Peter Hain, today a Labour MP. Is it surely ironic that the present Labour government is more ruthlessly authoritarian and cavalier about democratic rights and freedom of expression (Danish cartoons!) than the repugnant former regime in South Africa. Western values and liberties are under Islamic fanatical onslaught. To give way by compromising on fundamental freedoms is a monstrous error. May Mr Davis' brave move provoke a national debate.

TDK

Let's see.

There's been a Gramscian takeover of all our institutions by people we shouldn't trust (Melanie Philips - far too many articles to need linking)

The law is acceptable because there are safeguards enforced by those same institutions.

Slight problem!

Neil

Lady Park (86 yrs young) didn't have the kind of mind boggling computer power during her time at MI5 that we have these days ...

London Calling

@pete woodhouse
June 13th, 2008 5:59am

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7451691.stm

logdon

Most things Melanie writes I previously agreed with except her stance on marijuana which is hysterical and obviously without any knowledge of how deeply it's use is entrenched within our population. Oh and far less harmful both societally and medically than alcohol. Her arguments quite frankly are widdling in the wind. Now this?

"The first is the lethal and false belief that ‘we were taken to war on a lie’ that this country was under threat from Iraq, and that this lie was sustained by a politicised security community spreading ‘sexed-up’ falsehoods at the behest of government."

No WMD's were found so how she can deny Blair's lie defeats me. The 45 Minute claim was a proved total falsehood and obviously misleading. The evidence (or lack of it) exposes Blares dishonesty and her bleating is preposterous. As for Davis, reading the blogs and watching Any Questions gives me the impression our citizens are on his side. We live within such a cynical political landscape that politicians believe their own crap time after time, basically to hang on to power. If Davis is behaving in this manner it's a strange way to show it by shooting himself in the foot. OK it will create a bit of a media storm in the short term but Labour is such a busted flush who cares? We are sick of pettyfogging Marxist officialdom. We are sick of the craven appeasement in the face of encroaching Islam. We are sick of the hubris and lack of a democratic ideal. However a bit of cheer today from Ireland so I guess all is not doom and gloom.

Commondog

logdon.

"her (MP's) stance on marijuana which is hysterical and obviously without any knowledge of how deeply it's use is entrenched within our population."

My bet would be she is fully aware of the extent of its use. Further, that awareness likely makes up a large part of the motivation to do something about it?

field

Melanie -

If you want to sell your birthright of freedom for a mess of pottage (so called "security") go ahead - but don't try to sell mine for me thank you very much.

Thousands, indeed millions, of people have died and suffered for the freedoms we now enjoy - just as people today in Zimbabwe are suffering and dying for the same freedoms. What an insult to their memory to give up those freedoms because you are frightened of the very remote possibility of being blown up by
an Al Queda terrorist.

So far the chances of me dying from an Al Queda attack in the UK are something like me winning the lottery in any one year - so little chance that you should waste time on thinking about it.

Of course our security services should do everything to pick apart the conspiracies - but the current scale of risk does NOT justify internment without charge.

logdon

Commondog. I'm not sure Melanie does know. To do so means getting out amongst that entity which was once called the working class. To catch buses, to work in minimum wage jobs and to converse on equal terms with them. During periods of my life I've done it and I have seen how marijuana is treated as a fact of life. 'Looking forward to a nice spliff after work' is heard in the same way as having a pint. I doubt Melanie has shared that experience.

Harvela

Spot on Melanie!

We have moved on a long way since Magna Carta,

Todays crime and terrorist threat requires modern day surveillance , crime scene evaluation ,forensics ,DNA checks,interrogation and the need to build a comprehensive watertight case. This all takes time in order to bring about not only a satisfactory conclusion to the case but in order to protect the very freedoms we so cherish.

The threat we face today from Islamism is not dissimilar to those this country faced 70 years ago.Unfortunately there are many who fail to acknowledge or take this threat seriously.

Personally ,I have no proplem with 42 days or 142 days .

Islamofascists dont give a damn about laws, our frreedoms ,our very lives.The usual response to this is that we must somehow place ourselves above their savagery and nihilism.

Try telling that to the victims of 7/7 and the countless other atrocities carried out around the world by this evil ideology.

In an ideal world the Magna Carta would prevail in its original form but this is not an ideal world .

field

"Personally ,I have no proplem with 42 days or 142 days ."

Harvela - why 1142 days then? Why are you stopping at 142. Some investigations are going to take longer. There could be a coded message. It might take years to break the code. The coded message could give details of some vile plot that will be implemented if you release them after 142 days - so why stop at 142 days? Where's your logic - or more importantly: where are your principles?

Absence of all risk to personal safety is not a principle of political organisation. If it was, you would have to argue for a 2MPH speed limit, no aeroplane flights, banning of all alcohol sales, toddlers to wear safety helmets at all times, compulsory wearing of anti-stab vests etc etc.

A free society supposes a degree of risk. Is the risk of being killed of say 14 million to 1 really enough to justify 42 day detention?

I've never come across a more low and cowardly argument for such a measure.

Melanie has got this seriously wrong.

Harvela

Field

You are right !

Sorry for the omission .I should have put 1142 days .Thanks for pointing it out.

However you are a little blase regarding degree of risk .Fine if its not you or your kin being immolated on the 142 to Finchley.I think not .

You miss the point that our security forces and police are fighting a terrorist ideology which seeks to disrupt and ultimately destroy our way of life. The fact that only a few attempts have paid dividends is not for the want of their trying.You and I have no idea of just how many attempts have been thwarted.

This is not a police state. Security is not going to hold anyone longer then they need. Why should they .

However if the need is there ,what is the problem.

The human rights of the victims and potential victim must outweigh all other consideration.

The Magna Carta is no damn use after the event.

Take your head out of the sand and acknowledge the clear and present threat to all our lives!

field

Melanie -

You haven't answered anywhere my question:

What's to stop a future government, let's say a Respect-Labour coalition, working with a fully politicised PC Police force (they are well on the way to being that), acting on a complaint from say the Muslim Council of Britain and arresting you for "glorifying terrorism" for perhaps supporting an Israeli raid on a camp in Lebanon housing Palestinian terorrists. What's then to stop them from keeping you in for 42 days, confined to a windowless cell, where you are interrogated every day about your support for Israeli terrorism and threaten to arrest friends and family of yours if you fail to co-operate?

It might sound far fetched now.
But ten years ago it would have sounded far fetched that the Police would try and get a TV company prosecuted for exposing dangerous Islamic militants; or that Police would arrest someone for talking about "bogus asylum seekers" at a village fete; or that Christians would be arrested for opposing homosexuality; or that everyone at birth would be required to give a DNA sample; or a quarter of children starting primary school in the UK don't have English as a first language. Far fetched then - not now.

field

Harvela -

You say:

"Take your head out of the sand and acknowledge the clear and present threat to all our lives!"

Of course I recognise there is a threat. But we have contained it so far and the Americans, who are far more at risk, have contained it. Certainly the 42 day limit will do nothing to contain it further. It will simply be handing a propaganda victory to the enemy.

As you say, the real enemy is an ideology. As long as our political class refuse to fight the enemy on ideological grounds (or rather - chooses faux grounds for the fight, rather like a coward who challenges the bully to a fight with balloons), then we aren't going to make a great deal of progress however many days we lock up suspects.

Harvela

Field

Propoganda victory be damned .

I am only interested in maximising our security interests .There is no other consideration .If that means getting down and dirty and opting out of The Marquiss Of Queensbury Rules -so be it.

As for battling the bad guys on ideological grounds . Sorry this is not some sociology /political exam paper.

It's peoples lives .Buses tubes night clubs ,planes .

We face a ruthless single minded diabolic ideology on a par with Nazism. The numbers may be different but that is only for lack of means.

Security requires every means at its disposal in order to combat and ultimately defeat this heinous entity.

Mailman

The problem with your arguement agn, is that any old police officer can bang you up now for what ever they want anyway.

Now...the real arguement being made by Human Rights activists is that innocent Mr Jo Average can be locked up without having any idea about why he is being detained.

This is a disingenuous arguement. Human Rights activists can not provide one single case where an innocent person was detained by the police for 28 days without them know what is going on.

However, Human Rights activists want you to believe this "lie", because as soon as you believe this lie they can then push their real agenda through without so much as a "thank you".

The fact is, no one has been locked up totally oblivious to the reasons they have been detained for 28 days. In fact, it would be impossible to detain anyone for that length, or for any length of time, without them knowing why they have been detained simply because the police will have to interview that person and during those interviews it will be very clear why the person is being held (never mind the fact there isnt a single case of this ever happening when it was 7, 14, 28, 42 or a million days!).

You want your human rights kept in tact? Well far does, just dont come crying to momma when you get blown kingdom come for a packet of raisens by a terrorist on a packed underground train!

Stephen

As far as I have heard, the two people that were held for 28 days, and then charged (in contrast to those that have then been released) could have been charged at 6 and 12 days. The police held them because they could, just to see what else they could find out.