A breathing space for terror

David Lindsay

The Israelis themselves are on the cusp of peace both with Syria and with Hamas, basically by recognising Zionism as part of their past rather than their present. Good for them. Why aren't you happy for them? Why do they have to organise their affairs in order to suit your prejudices? Who do you think you are?

Alcuin

"You were given the choice between war and dishonour . . . you chose dishonour and you will have war." - Winston Churchill (of the Munich "agreement").

Some people need more than one lesson, such are Hamas. If Israel shut the border (completely) and shut off electricity until they got a day without attacks, they would have peace, and it would last.

Israel should also say to the EU: "If you want to feed Gaza, do it by sea, and use your own ships and crews".

The position of Egypt is particularly invidious. They set up concentration camps for their precious Arab "refugees" in Gaza in 1948, and have completely shut their side of the border, yet seem to tolerate the tunnels. They want Palestinians even less than the Israelis.

Alf Tupper

David Lindsay.

This cusp of peace thing: do you think Ahmedinejad is on board?

Lynne T

David Lindsey:

Who are you? The radio news this morning broadcast by the BBC's Canadian sister included a report filed by Margret Evans from Gaza. One of her sound bites was a quote of a Gazan university lecturer named Shaheen who stated somberly that the truce would be short-lived because, "Israel would never accept a neighbour that does not accept Israel's right to exist".

I rather doubt that he was attempting to be ironic.

There are, no doubt, Palestinians who accept the two-state solution. Most of them live in Israel and, despite the fact that relations between them and their Jewish neighbours are strained due to security issues, they are generally loathe to live under the PA or any other Arab government. And many in the PA governed territories recognize that the years between 1967 and Arafat's return were actually pretty damned good, but to say so publicly is to write one's death warrant.

David Lindsay

I don't believe that he ever wasn't, Alf Tupper. His Parliament has a reserved seat for a Jew, so anti-Semitic is he.

That the nine "powers" all (yes, including the US) let him tell them where to get off makes it abundantly clear that they are as sick as everybody else of having to play silly little games of looking for weapons that do not exist (ring any bells?) merely in order to please people who cannot win elections in Israel and people who will do anything for Israel except live there.

Why are the Bush-funding, Clinton-funding, rabidly anti-Jewish and misogynistic, totally undemocratic and brutally repressive Gulf monarchies all right, but the elected governments of Iran (with more women than men at university, with the most acclaimed cinema in the world, &c) and the Palestinian Territories off limits?

The Israelis have clearly decided that the latter is not, and will doubtless actively take the same view of the former soon enough. Good for them. They have to live there. Their critics do not, and steadfastly will not even voluntarily.

We should commend the Israelis for facing up to the fact that they are living in the Middle East and that they intend to get on with it, whether people in Crown Heights or Golders Green like it or not. What business is it of theirs, anyway?

N. Simon

Does anyone remember the "ceasefire" of June 2006? That was when Gilat Shalit was kidnapped.

The next "ceasefire" was between Nov. 21st, 2006 and May 15th, 2007, when there were 315 missile attacks from Gaza which were fired at Sderot and the Western Negev. All fired by Hamas who will never accept Israel's right to exist.

A "hudna" is an Islamic ceasefire and has always been used as a subterfuge to re-arm, re-group, and re-think strategy before attacking again.

A "hudna" has never meant, nor ever will mean "peace".

Alf Tupper

David Lindsay.

Ahmedinejad always wanted peace, even when he said Israel should be wiped off the map? When he referred to it as a festering corpse?
I don't think all those women on campus, or the esteemed film-makers are going to take the edge off that blade.

Dee Ranged

David Lindsay -

Diddums do discard the pot and pipe down!

.

Neil Turner

People, there's no point bickering !

Before your very eyes you will see:

- missiles launched from Gaza during the cease fire

- Israel showing restraint in not retaliating

- the world's press ignoring these missiles as "non-events"

- Hamas utlising the lull to re-arm

- eventually, Israel will retaliate. Unfortunately, Hamas will ensure that they launch their missiles from an area inhabited by families / children

- the media will then have a field day, reporting how the brutal Israeli "agressor" killed yet more innocent palestinians

Then we'll all be back to square one

Dave

"Peace at any price" is a funny phrase. If you get peace, what price isn't worth paying?

Bob Latchford

David Lindsay, the reason Melanie isnt happy is because a warmonger is the enemy of peace, and the drums of war beat loud and often from behind Ms Phillips computer in the safety of her Fleet Street office. Maybe if she was actually in Israel, then she would glad of this latest effort for peace, but alas, she is very willing to shout war on behalf of others from thousands of miles away

Frank Pulley

Latchford

Rather childish assumptions on your part about who lives where, don't you think? In this day and age copy can be filed from anywhere in the world, you prat. Where do you live? I mean which village in Cloud Cuckoo land?

Chip

I think Orwell is credited with: "War is evil, but it is often the lesser evil."

HAMAS Charter, Article Seven:

"...Hamas is one of the links in the Chain of Jihad in the confrontation with the Zionist invasion. It links up with the setting out of the Martyr Izz a-din al-Qassam and his brothers in the Muslim Brotherhood who fought the Holy War in 1936; it further relates to another link of the Palestinian Jihad and the Jihad and efforts of the Muslim Brothers during the 1948 War, and to the Jihad operations of the Muslim Brothers in 1968 and thereafter. But even if the links have become distant from each other, and even if the obstacles erected by those who revolve in the Zionist orbit, aiming at obstructing the road before the Jihad fighters, have rendered the pursuance of Jihad impossible; nevertheless, the Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim)."

Good thing that's forgotten. Diplomacy triumphs again.

Steven L

David Lindsay and Bob Latchford, you both have it wrong. Ignorance is the enemy of peace and for those like you two who consistently deny or ignore the thousands of statements, vows, promises, State sponsored TV and press items that condemn Jews and/or Israel and call for its destruction or worse glorify the murder of Israelis or as we see today Jews anywhere in the world by the hand of the other Iranian proxy, Hezbollah, its clear this is merely appeasement until the Islamists decide they are strong enough to once again launch attacks and sadly murder hundreds if they can ... and you two can be counted on to make the usual excuses for them or to find Israel is somehow to blame. We, those of us who do read and do listen can only hope that that this pathetic Olmert government will collapse and Israel will deal with the Iranian threat from Hamas and Hezbollah without listening to the echo of all the naive Neville Chamberlain sound alikes.

Lee Jakeman

To make their Kassam rockets, Hamas use whatever tubing, piping they can lay their hands on. I guess they finally ran out of drainpipes.

David Lindsay

Alf Tupper, you know perfectly well that he never really said that. And what if he did? Deeds matter more than words.

Bob Latchford, while one would not necessarily put it like that, you are basically right. People in London, New York and other European and North American centres love an idea of Israel (consting them absolutely nothing), and hitherto Israelis have had to go through the motions of pretending to be that vision, or at least of caring what such people think. The effects on Israelis themselves are plain to see.

In reality, Israel long since gave up on being a Jewish State and became just an obsessively non-Arab one which flies in all and sundry (Russians who won’t eat kosher food and insist on taking their IDF oaths on the New Testament alone, Russian Nazis, East Africans who have invented a religion based on the Old Testament brought by Christian missionaries but who make no claim to Jewish descent, Peruvian Indians “converted to Judaism” and put on the plane as a single act, all sorts) in order to preserve a non-Arab majority.

But the single most common name for newborn boys *inside the pre-1967 borders* is still now Muhammad.

So the Jewish Establishment is Israel has decided “Sod this. We are in the Levant, where Jews have historically done well anyway, so let’s get on with it. What have the Crown Heights and Golders Green lot ever done for us? If they’d really cared about a Jewish State, then they’d have come here and never required us to import all these funny people.”

Good for them, and I hope it pays off. I think it will. And we will all just have to deal with it.

So diddums indeed, Dee Ranged. Diddums, indeed.

Brian O'Connor

I'm curious . . . for those who demonize Mel and find no difference between the alleged sins of government of Israel and Hamas . . . what do you make of the Palestinians position that Israel has no right to exist?

I mean, if Hamas (for example) were willing to accept a "two state solution," why won't they (Hamas) just begin by acknowledging Israel's right to exist?

Am I missing something here?

Seraph

This truce makes absolutely no sense. No country in the world would allow its civilian population to suffer daily missile barrages without a response. Yet, the missile barrages are not really a STRATEGIC threat. However, the constant smuggling of weapons into the Gaza Strip IS a strategic threat. Hence, this truce allows Hamas to strategically strengthen itself.

Is there anyone out there foolish enough to believe that the Egyptians will try to stem the flow of arms? Even if Mubarak's regime wanted to do this, Egyptian soldiers are sympathetic to the Palestinians and are making a fortune in the process. The only way to prevent these Iranian weapons from getting to Gaza is if Israel finally builds that moat along the Philadelphia corridor.

Nachman Miyisroel

David Lindsay? Reading your posts reminds me of the line taken by Neturei Karta - guess your name is probably Dovid Lindzug and you likely as not live in Stamford Hill - am I close? As someone living on the front line I can tell you I fear for my country now that the Hamas Fascists has been handed total victory by the inept occupant of the Prime Minister's office -this is indeed one of Israel's blackest weeks. I say you are NK because how else would someone other than an enemy of the State of Israel support the self emolation now being conducted by the Olmert-Livni-Barak government of losers who in a non-written agreement which even Arye Mekel the government spokesman has admitted contains no requirement for the Hamas Fascists to stop re-arming themselves and leaves out any requirement for the safe return of Gilad Schallit. Only time will tell how long this latest "truce" subsists but it is unquestionable that Iran now has a strong foothold both in Gaza and Yehuda and the Shomron and heaven forefends it may not even need its nuclear capability to inflict heavy loss on Israel. If matters persist and Olmert refuses to go I can see a Zimbabwe situation arising in Israel and the scenes from Yitzhar yesterday bring that day closer.

GNO

By agreeing to this "ceasefire", although the actual firing was only for Hamas to cease, Israel is playing to the international audience. Israel cannot fight Hamas or any other of its many enemies on its own, it needs the world public opinion on its side.

Israel should make the most of this respite. It should send its best diplomats, negotiators and cabinet ministers around the world on a huge PR exercise. It should wage a propaganda war of its own, in governments, at the UN/EU, in university campuses, in the media etc.

The whole world should know this time who fired first.

paul D

For those that don't know, David Lindsay is the self proclaimed 'leader' of a new political party called the 'British Peoples Alliance' which is apparently going to put up candidates in all seats at the next election but which appears to only have one member - namely said David Lindsay.

Oliver Kamm can provide a much more eloquent (and humourous) analysis of this odd fellow.

d gray

To D Lindsay......the Iranians do not have the most acclaimed cinema in the world,where the hell did you get that.And evcen if they did,what possible use is that when it launches a nuclear weapon at Israel.Oh I know,they can make a film about it,no doubt blamming the everything on the Jews.

Richard Koeppel

You got it right here! The time for a cease-fire is when you have soundly defeated the enemy. Olmert is a simpering weasel.

RUTH

David Lindsay,

An excellent question;

"Why does Israel have to arrange its affairs to suit Mrs Phillips predudices?"

Because such people as write here do not want peace. They want war. They want to evict even more Palestinians from their homes, so they can fester who knows where - refugee camps in Beirut presumably.

They do not see strength as sufficient within itself, only as a means of conquest and destruction.

Poor old Israel. It is held to ransom by such people. A horrible plight for a country of such ideals, corrupted to the core by those who care not one jot for its welfare, but see it only as a vessel on which to preach their arrogance, contempt and hatred.

Tony Makara

Sad to see Melanie Phillips trying to pour cold water on what is essentially good news for everyone. Even former mossad boss Efraim Halevy has said that the Israeli's should negotiate with Hamas. Dialogue is the only way forward. Sadly though some journalists have grown rich writing about the culture of terror and conflict, peace for such people is bad news.

Stanislav Koblinski

Better take a good look in the mouth of this particular gift horse:

Hamas politburo member: Gaza truce merely a 'fighters respite'

The Gaza truce is local and temporally and merely a "fighters respite" to allow the Palestinian people some breathing space, Hamas politburo member Ayzat Arishak said Friday, stressing that the cease-fire was in no way an abandonment of the armed struggle.

The Damascus-based Arishak said that Israel's agreement to the cease-fire was an accomplishment for the Palestinian factions, but said a truce was in the interest of both sides and that Hamas would be committed to it.

patricia

Bob Latchford makes an excelent point;

Radical expats stir up trouble back at home in lands they no longer have any real connection with.

lassic example - 'Macedonian' emigrees in Canada funded and eulogised that pseudo country's aggrandising rants against Northern Greece, claiming Thessalonika as their righftul capital, when in reality modern 'Macedonia' depends entirely on Greece for its heat, light and access to ports.

They put their own outdated prejudices against the interests of their erstwhile compatriots.

The Daily Mail really ought to post Phillips to Jerusalem, make her go to the camps, to Gaza, talk to Hamas for herself, and then ask her to write an informed and properly considered piece, instead of lobbing these hate posts at us time after time.
Pity the Spectator has no such agenda.

And as for the idiot here who quoted Churchill earlier - remember jaw jaw, not war war?

No, thought not.

Stanislav Koblinski

"'Macedonian' emigrees in Canada funded and eulogised that pseudo country's aggrandising rants against Northern Greece, claiming Thessalonika as their righftul capital, when in reality modern 'Macedonia' depends entirely on Greece for its heat, light and access to ports.

They put their own outdated prejudices against the interests of their erstwhile compatriots."

Sounds rather like the "Palestinians" in Gaza claiming Jerusalem as their "righftul capital" (sic), doesn't it?

GaryL

There will be a war between Iran and Israel, and each season that passes ensures it will be worse for all. Iran's proxies will give Israel no choice but to cause devastating damage to Palestinians, Lebanese, and Syrians. Whatever anyone writes here will not make a dot of difference. If Israel is stopped while Iran's proxies still have military capabilities there will be another war.

There is no reason to believe there will ever be a Palestinian state. 80 years of efforts by Britain, the UN, and Israel have been unsuccessful in assisting them to install any state-like infrastructure. They'll go down in history books in the future as just another local minority who had daydreams beyond their capabilities.

The "two state solution" fanatics should be pleased that half of the problem as they see it has been solved. One of the states aready exists. It's the other one which has wasted three generations and is heading towards wasting a few more.

Byron in Wahroonga

***with more women than men at university, with the most acclaimed cinema in the world***

Kind of a short list, Mr. Lindsay. Can I be of assistance, in your OJ-like quest for Iranian superlatives? They have... nice carpets... and... ummm... tasty dates, in season! In related news, Pyongyang has very few traffic jams.

Byron in Wahroonga

***If you get peace, what price isn't worth paying?***

Slavery.

Sergey

Peace can result only from overwhelming, non-disputable defeat of agressors, leaving them no illusions about revenge. No temporal truce can do the trick.

Byron in Wahroonga

***the whole world should know this time who fired first***

They don't care, GNO. Worrying about what the rest of the world thinks won't save the life of one Israeli.

Brian O'Connor

Okay — I'll try again, this time addressing David Lindsay.

If Hamas (for example) is unwilling to acknowledge Israel's right to exist, what is there to negotiate, other than by which route Israel ceases to exist?

Al Ramy

Bravo, this take is on the money!
One can also take into account that the head honchos of Hamas were targeted, it was a matter of time before they were taken out with a Hellfire rocket and it has been a tradition that the leaders send others to become martyrs, but they dodge the bullets. The utterly despised and most reviled premier in Israel's history did not have the "cojones" to launch an operation which would have resulted in many deaths, now that the IDF is operated by robots, wimps for generals and computers. The fact is that Corporal Shalit and his crew were asleep when they were captured is completely missed from all the debate. In my days, they used to court-martial any IDF soldier caught napping. It is a war and the entire country is dancing around the sad story of one soldier. Indeed, Israel, should have taken a more robust operation right after his attack, no matter what the cost could have been and put Gaza under complete blockade. This includes every instrument in the arsenal, but Olmert and Barak are made of a different material than the decision makers Israel used to have. It is a sad sign of decline. It showed its true face in 1973 and it has been down hill ever since.

YA

Forcing Gazan terrorists to stop shooting is undisputable strategic and military success.
Great traning for troops, on conducting offensive missions, practically without casualties, against well trained well entrenched enemy.
Terrorists do know if they shoot only once, all happiness of previous year will come back.
Terror was defeated in Gaza irrespect popular support, and this way it might be defeated everywhere.
Isolation, siege, hitting painfully for bad, candies for good behavior.

Brian Gould

Salah al-Bardawil, a Hamas “moderate”, is suggesting that Olmert ought to seek agreement now on the two-state solution, because “otherwise an ideology more extreme than Hamas will be the result.” He was speaking on Friday, 24 hours into the ceasefire. Full story here:

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/994774.html

What Bardawil doesn’t say, though it’s what many Israelis believe, is that an ideology more extreme than Kadima, namely the Likud, may soon be back in power in Jerusalem, with Netanyahu as PM.

logdon

Ignoring all the infighting on this page, Melanie is right. Our descent into moral relativity has removed our filter of deceit and in thus accepting the Saidist versions of the history of Israel we are spinning around in a mad whirligig with no basis in fact or truth. Lying is lying, yet seemingly because it's called taqiya, a hudna or tahdiya the relativists fall for it. 'It's their culture innit' seems to be the yardstick whether it's about 9/11 or the state of play around the world where Islamists are intent on wrecking the status quo in favour of their medieval seventh century barbarousness. A teacher in Afghanistan was decapitated in front of her pupils for her temerity to teach girls the other week. Do we condone that because it is the Taliban's 'culture'? This lack of ability to separate obvious and humane right from barbaric wrong has infected the whole debate. Israel is a symbol of how, post war we tried to get it right. A free and fair nation in the midst of failure is how I see it. If it goes (as many hand rubbing BBC types would love to see) we are next. Anyway, the next period in which Iran is intent on nuclear weaponry will blow all of this into the water. Israel cannot and will not allow it. After the raid which destroys the plants where will this hudna go? The same place as all the rest, into the dustbin of Islamic promises.

Geoffrey Dron

It is vital for Israel and the West that this truce should be seen as offrered by Israel and to break down (by early 2009?) because of Hamas' actions. Then there will be justification for the final destruction of the terrorist organisation as a preliminary to the war with Syria (2009) - unless, which is very unlikely, a genuine peace deal can be struck so as to isolate Iran and its satellites, Hamas and Hizbollah. The most likely scenario is an attack on Iran's nuclear facilities in 2010, with US backing, with Hamas' and Hizbollah's power to create trouble much reduced and with tacit support from Saudi Arabia and the Gulf states. The respite in the fighting will be useful, if managed properly.

Brian Gould

Geoffrey Dron, the recent bilateral talks in Turkey seemed to be making substantive progress, apparently even getting down to details such as what kind of arrangement would enable Israeli traffic to carry on using Highway 92 along the eastern shore of the Sea of Galilee after the whole of the Golan was transferred to Syrian sovereignty. Yet you say a peace deal with Syria is “highly unlikely”. Are you suggesting that the talks are a sham, a smokescreen? And if so, on which side? Both? Or do you mean Baby Assad will chicken out, under pressure from Iran?

YA

Geoffrey Dron: agree with your analysis, except for war with Syria.

Brian Gould: that depends on guarantor of peace with Syria. Other words, who monitors Syrians and manages punitive options. Certainly this is EU/NATO, their troops are already there. But EU is very undecisive and don't have experience in such things. So there might be different scenarios. But not war. If Assad starts war, that will mean his 100% end, Saddam-style.

Bob

To the idiot Patricia who offered Churchill’s “Jaw, jaw, not war, war.” as an alternative to his repudiation of Chamberlain’s Munich agreement:

Churchill was talking about intelligent diplomacy to avoid war. He was not talking about capitulation, which is what Chamberlain “accomplished” at Munich. That was the reason for the war vs. dishonor statement. The ceasefire falls into the war vs. dishonor category. It also reminds us of another Churchill statement about appeasement when he said that it is like someone who always feeds the crocodile in the hope that he will be the last one eaten.

Ann

Lindsay, Zionism is the basis of the Jews reclaiming their own homeland, stolen from them to the applause of people like you. Why do they have to organise their affairs in order to suit your prejudices? Who do you think you are?

Ann

"His Parliament has a reserved seat for a Jew, so anti-Semitic is he"

What unmitigated drivel from the usual ignorant source. One seat for one Jew vs. annihiliating the Jewish homeland. so he is not antisemitic. I am sure some of his best friends are Jews. I am sure some of yours are.

Ann

Al Ramy, you should be lucky to have 1% of Barak's cojones. Look up his record.