A Caledonian caliphate?

cuffleyburgers

Sounds to me like hysterical nonsense, the scots are far too fond of suasages.

Roslyn Pine

Unsurprising.
Some time ago on BBC's Question Time, Salmond poured obloquy on Israel and made no attempt to hide his prejudices vis a vis that country.
The Islamists have been very successful in Scotland as evidenced by the strength of propaganda there by the Scottish branch of the Palestine Solidarity Movement and others. In addition the Scottish left has been particularly aggressive in trying to move forward the anti Israel academic boycott.

Charles

A 'Caledonian Caliphate'?

Have they forgotten John 'McClane' Smeaton so soon?

Anyway, I thought we already had a Caledonian caliphate - just that the buggers were running the wrong country!

steve

"with one leap the Brothers could achieve an Islamised country on England’s border" Could someone tell me what percentage of Scotland's population are Muslims or even immigrants for that matter? I think Melanie has started writing for The Onion.

James Bates

Oh its Melanie Phillips again. The world is out to get Israel. Everyone hates us. Lets all read Melanie Phillips as she is going to save us from the Armageddon coming.

talorthane

Ok, let's put to one side the claims that, due to her inability to be impartial on anything that challenges her own religious beliefs, Ms Phillips rejects; the theory of evolution, equal rights for homosexuals, or that human behaviour can have an effect the world, like global warming.

What is she saying here?

"The Salmond/Saeed axis is not merely a disturbing sign of Salmond’s own prejudices."

Apart from the disgraceful suggestion of "evil", what does she know of Alex Salmond's prejudices?

Ephraim Borowski, the Director of the Scottish Council of Jewish Communities, would appear to completely disagree.

"We were delighted when the new First Minister, at one of his first engagements, asked to meet us in order to ask us to arrange a visit to the school and the Community.

We are even more delighted that he was able to hear and respond to the concerns of representatives of all sectors of the Community, and that we have his personal commitment to a diverse multicultural Scotland in which the safety, security, and development of the Jewish Community are assured."

It would appear that Melanie Phillips has obviously been communicating with Tom Gallagher on this one.

So perhaps Ms Phillips should try to get to know her subject matter before burdening the rest of us with her own paranoid fears, rather than relying on those who share her bunker mentality.

We must also question what understanding Ms Phillips has of democracy if she feels that the support of a multicultural society (and allowing each faith with the means to express itself) will myteriously lead to the majority of the electorate voting for members of this group in such numbers that it will take over the government.

Wadi Amin

This is all getting a bit too close to the Glenlivet distillery for my liking.

phil

james bates -so whats your view-are you a hater too ?

Ben Disraeli

Oh its Melanie Phillips again.

Who did you expect when you went out of your way to read...Melanie Philips' blog?

Huh, another so-called moderate Muslim with direct links to Islamist Extremists. And running for parliament too. Fancy that.

jr

Its a shame, in many ways I had thought Scotland was vastly better integrated than England. There are no "no-go" areas as far as I know.

Ann

Salmond has a long history of screeching anti-Israel personality disorder. During the so-called 'Jenin massacre' debate in the Reichsta ... Commons, his mouth-foaming rants were straight out of the Stuermer.

Ann

Oh, it's the silly, ignorant James Bates again, who comes here every time his mummy goes out and he has a quick go on her computer.

anglicus

If the Third Reich had worn the war, Moseley would not have been put in charge. Similarly if Scotland becomes an islamic state, Salmond will be dead and gone, he's living in cloud cuckoo land.

Anthony

"Scottish voters might be getting more than they bargained for: a Caledonian caliphate."

I agree that sucking up to the Muslim Brotherhood is a Bad Thing.

However, I'd be very interested to know how this Caledonian Caliphate is going to work, given that Muslims make up less than one per cent of the population of Scotland.

Ben Doon and Phil McCracken

There's a strong temperance streak in Scots presbyterianism that could be co-opted by Islamists. In St Andrews in the 1990s, the Britannia Hotel served 70 shilling in half-pint glasses, and the landlady wouldn't serve you more than three halves in one session in case you got rowdy. I reckon she was a sleeper for the MB or AQ-S.

Alcuin

If there is any one figure responsible for the mental straitjacket that Islam has become, and for its long decline to its current mental and physical poverty, it is Al-Ghazali.

In one single tract - "The Incoherence of the Philosophers", Ghazali rubbished over 1000 years of Greek, Jewish, Persian, Christian and Roman thought. It can scarcely be a better metaphor for the intellectual bankruptcy of Islam that today's Muslims should celebrate such a retrograde figure.

Frank Pulley

A Caledonian caliphate - wonderful! I always knew there was a bit of the George Galloway in that little toad Salmond. Let's hope that Ken Livingstone will relocate to Scotland, too, wehere he would obviously feel at home with all those friends.

Wadi Amin

talorthane.

You make the mistake that is repeated over and again, of looking at this as a static situation when in reality, things are on the move, rapidly and in the one direction.

alan143

My thanks again Melanie.

There are some gems in that report from Centre for Social Cohesion, such as this one:

‘The SIF also hopes to get funding from the government. Speaking on 16 June to publicise the group's forthcoming launch, Saeed made a clear appeal for government money: "There is hundreds of millions of pounds sloshing around in England for this sort of stuff but in Scotland, we are largely relying on volunteers. This is something that needs to be looked at."’

Ah, so Labour’s Scottish mafia will only misuse taxpayer’s money to attack England’s culture, not Scotland’s.

Actually, Omar Saeed is the victim of the piece. He has been exiled to the miserly North, far from Westminster’s feeding trough and all the other grasping multi-culti pigs. Let’s hope he doesn’t feel moved to commit suicide in his grief, if there’s anybody standing near him at the time.

Joe Strummer

As a Scot, I had dark emotions regarding Devolution to Holyrood in Edinburgh from Westminster as the eruption of sectarian identity politics,always barely just below the surface in Scotland, would emerge and sadly I've been proven correct.

The SNP, and Alex Salmond especially, are playing a dangerous game of grievance politics by aligning themselves with the relentless whining extremists of both the RC Church in Scotland and now the Muslims.

A sad day for Scotland,indeed.!

Charles

The 'Scottish Islamic Foundation', aka the 'SIF' - good to see that they have a sense of humour, albeit on the dark side!

Hereford

Nae Bother. As far as I am concerned the quicker we have an excuse to close the border with Scotland and disown the whole shoulder chippy victimhood obsessed lot of them the better. It'll gie em anara regime te rail against forra next 1000 years.

Andy

what ever happened to shortbread and bagpipes?

E.I. Addio

jr: "I had thought Scotland was vastly better integrated than England. There are no "no-go" areas as far as I know. "

Try wearing a Rangers or Celtic shirt in the wrong area and then you'll know - finally.

talorthane

Wadi Amin

What things are on the move?

And in what direction are they going?

Phil

If you look how succesful the left was in its long march through Western institutions, It only took 30 or so years to tear the guts out of this country and remake it in their image, Who can say the Islamists won't be as succesful in a similar time period?.

Given the spineless wimps who govern much of the west i don't see how it's possible for them to fail.

ed hummer

Hereford.

I think you have a couple of bulls that need milking.

Mo

If anyone says anything against the zionist state if Israel, then be sure that the wrath of Melanie and Douglas Murray will be upon them. Its about time the spectator stopped printing the biased dross of this character. Its like an old record.

Wadi Amin

talorthane.

Demographics.

Look at the curves, do the arithmetic, see what you think.

phil

may I ask the phil who posted at 5.45 to use an extra name as we do not want confusion .

Harvey

Ann - does your effusive charm come naturally or do you have to practise?

Adam B.

Mo, the "zionist state" has a name - Israel. And if there's a broken record, it's the venom and obsessive hatred that gets incessantly directed at it by people like you.

D Gray

Apart from the usual stupid dreary comments from the English.....kilts,celtic,rangers,sausages blah blah blah there were a couple of comments worth replying to.Scotlands muslim population is 1 percent.The reason the SNP want contact with a muslim organization is because if they dont then muslims can point the finger of 'your prejudiced' and the SNP can never have that.There are more Jews,Hindus,Sihks in Scotland but they dont blow people up when their blood pressure rises so they can safely be ignored.Scotland will never be an islamic state Melanie....you dont have to worry about that.England might become one,after all in your book Londonistan you state cleary why its taking place and not only in London.So Scotland may well have an islamic state on her border and all the English people currently fleeing to Scotland to avoid Englands multicultural hell will need to flee elsewhere.Salmond is intelligent but not as intelligent as we thought.By accepting a group so closely linked to the desire to murder people it may well come back to slap him across the face.......but only when there has been another attempt to slaughter non-believers north of the border.Hereford should get the hell out of England as soon as he can......he cant even celebrate St.Georges day with his little flag without it upsetting the muslims.But dont come up here mate....your arrogance will only get you labbeled as an Englishman with a chip on his shoulder.

talorthane

Wadi Amin

You may not have noticed, it's been mentioned here several times, but the muslim population in Scotland is only 1%.

There may be religious and racial tensions in certain parts of England, but there is no significant proplem of this kind in Scotland.

The Scottish government's approach to the muslim community, as it is with all religious groups, is one of partnership. This is in contrast to some of the approaches by Westminster, where the appraoch is to restrict freedoms of specic groups and, as a result, everyone in general.

There may be a clue here, as to why these problems are not as great north of the border.

Kirsty Shaw

this is absolutley mad, this is an organisation trying to promote citizenship among the Muslim community, they don't want people dead infact they organised the first muslim led rally against terror after the glasgow airport attacks, what is wrong with the world? is every Muslim organisation a terrorist organisation? also
'Its chief executive Omar Saeed', Its actually Osama Saeed, says a lot for her reporting skills or lack of

Ann

"all the English people currently fleeing to Scotland to avoid Englands multicultural hell" - which planet are you on? It's the Scots who are coming to England in droves to escape dreary Scotland (and to colonise our government without a democratic mandate).

elixelx

I was taught very early that if the head of the camel is inside the tent, the rest is not far behind!
I always took it as a reference to having sex, but I see now how it may well apply to that 1% of Muslims in Scotland!
Boy, are you big-tent scots gonna get screwed by the entire camel!

alan143

To D Gray @ 8:13pm

Agreed, commenter "Hereford" wants to be an arse. Some do.

You said: "Scotland may well have an islamic state on her border." Actually that's an entire islamist CONTINENT on your border matey! Jesus Christ man wake up, from your isolationist, narcissist's ballroom dance up there. What have you been doing – discussing politics with the midges and taking pride in their agreement?

How well do you imagine Scotland will fare, fighting the entire Continent on her own, for the first time in history? I think you told us your truth when you said “Salmond is intelligent but not as intelligent as we thought.” And that thing,... is your chosen battle Leader...

Actually, you're trying to be truthful enough to admit he's disappointing, self-serving rubbish. I thank you for making the effort.

This IS the question that the English want to ask of the Scots today. With your brave history, why will you lot vote ONLY for the most despicable, craven, lying thieves in all Europe. Because that's the only sort you have sent down to Westminster lately, making you ALL look like the human filth they are.

Explain your way out of that. And don't try be a Scottish Hereford ever again.

Byron the Aussie

***sounds to me like hysterical nonsense, the scots are far too fond of suasages***

He! Your opinions are as poor as your spelling, Cuffley.

Byron the Aussie

***I'd be very interested to know how this Caledonian Caliphate is going to work, given that Muslims make up less than one per cent of the population of Scotland***

Fascinating (in a repulsive way) reading the delusions of some here. Muslims only make up 2.8% of England, according to Wikipedia. And look how much territory you've surrendered.

john doe

I vaguely remember a socialist Scots politician a few years back coming out of court with his wife after having been found innocent of some sexual misdemeanour and he was waving his fist in the air going on about saving the Palestinians! That cleared it for me. At that point I knew Scotland was ruined. It was a vile horrible spectacle of irrational and brutish hysteria. Scotland is a mess. Highest homicide rate in the world. Rampant alcoholism and drug addiction.Irreparable damage I guess from alcohol, rabid moralistic presbytarianism and atrocious weather. And of course, the endless grievance theatre and Braveheart syndrome. Time to grow up folks. With all this dysfunction, it would not be surprising if there is a wave of Islamophilia across the border. Desperation I call it.

Rock Strongo

E I Addio: Or an England football shirt in Edinburgh, even if you're seven-year-old:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/5101184.stm

Neil Saunders

To "Kirsty Shaw"

You are extremely naive (if you are not a Muslim yourself).

Devout Muslims (as you probably know) have a sacred obligation ("taqiyya") to lie to the "kuffar" (i.e. the non-Muslim) by concealing or misrepresenting their true beliefs and intentions.

This includes misrepresenting Muslim organisations as "moderate" when they are not. (This might explain the "anti-terror" charade you mention.)

Byron the Aussie

**Scotland is a mess. Highest homicide rate in the world***

Huh? There's not a European country in the top ten, for homicide:

http://www.benbest.com/lifeext/murder.html

talorthane

John Doe

"I vaguely remember a socialist Scots politician....going on about saving the Palestinians! That cleared it for me. At that point I knew Scotland was ruined."

You have a rare skill to be able to determine the future prospects of a country from the sight of an individual leaving court.

"Highest homicide rate in the world."

Really? Where did you dream that up from. The homicide rate in Scotland was 25.6 per million in 2008, ranking it 59th out of just over 100 countries able to provide figures. It has since dropped to 21.2 in 2008.

So, did you just make that up?

The rest of your post is a deranged rant about a country you clearly know nothing about.

john doe

Byron the Aussie:

I stand corrected. Nevertheless...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2005/sep/26/ukcrime.scotland

And it's getting worse.

M Clyde

There is growing unease in Scotland re Salmond's cosying up to Islamists like Osama Saeed. Contrary to the predicable Scottophobic remarks made here by 'little Englanders' (?), the majority of Scots are decent citizens like John Smeaton and the others who spontaneously tackled the Glasgow suicide bombers last July, and view with some alarm the demands made by sections of the Muslim community for special treatment. However if you continue to make such stupid remarks there is nothing more calculated to drive Scots to defend Salmond than this. And hell mend you!

Or are you Islamist agents provocateurs pretending to be English?

If Salmond is not stopped this will lead to the break up of Britain, the exodus of nuclear weapons from the Clyde, the dismantling of the British nuclear capacity and the prospect of an independent Scotland under Salmond hosting Hamas conferences and drawing up a special relationship with Teheran. Scotland will also pull out of NATO - this has long been SNP policy. The Iranian ambassador has already congratulated Salmond on his 'foreign policy' and spoken warmly of an Edinburgh-Teheran axis.

'Britain' will no longer exist, and so will be ejected from the UN Security Council, especially after its loss of nuclear weapons, prompting the biggest shake up in the Security Council's composition since its formation 60 years ago.

If this sounds like a good prospect to you, and you will sleep safer in your little Englander beds at night, then go right ahead and attack the Union and decent Scots struggling against this menace with your vile Neanderthal prejudice. Britain needs support, decent Scots need support, not smears, if we are to head off this appalling, but realistic prospect.

There has been wide opposition in Glasgow to the agitation by Saeed and his father, a senior science teacher, to get a state funded Muslim school. The Labour led council has strenuously opposed this and the forces of secularism in Scotland have also added their voices. As indeed have moderate Muslim voices like academic Amanulla de Sondy (whom the lazy Scottish press tends not to consult as regularly as the brash publicity seeking Saeed). If Saeed succeeds in getting his state funded Muslim school in Glasgow this will be a significant advance for the creation of an Islamist ghetto in a major UK city.

The Muslim community (0.87% of the Scottish population at the last census) is disproportionally concentrated in the Pollokshields area of Glasgow and racial/religious tensions have been increasing there for some time. Earnest efforts have been made to defuse the situation but as elsewhere in Britain, harassment of whites is under-reported for fear of upsetting the politically correct consensus and stirring racism.

Mike Liddell, a retired Strathclyde police chief, has commented on the craven attitude of Strathclyde police in failing to tackle Asian crime in the city with the necessary toughness out of political correctness.

Scots are not racists and there is genuine goodwill towards the mainly Pakistani Muslim community, who are hard-working and commercially orientated, and have made solid contributions to Scotland. But the younger generations that were born here are becoming steadily Islamised through agitators like Saeed. SIF is an attempt to harness this generational shift and provide a cadre of Islamist leaders produced in Scotland, who will NOT, of course remain there, but settle elsewhere in the UK and elsewhere in Europe where they have family connections.

So go right ahead, mock Melanie and CSC for their prescience and dismiss this 'Scottish nonsense' at your peril.

Ann

Thalortane, it's you who know nothing about Scotland. Look at Dundee council in the 1980s/90s: a bunch of toerags flying the 'Palestinian' flag on the town hall.
Scotland is a mess of self-pity and whining, a huge chip on their shoulders, and nonetheless they come here and get rich and still whine (read Gill's disgusting racist rant against the English).
Go and secede and float off into the North Sea!

Robin

Harvey,

Ann's charm is natural.

talorthane

M Clyde

I support much of your opening paragraph, in relation to the mindless, ignorant prejudices shown by some of the contributors to this page.

However, your own prejudices are clouding your judgement.

"If Salmond is not stopped this will lead to the break up of Britain, the exodus of nuclear weapons from the Clyde, the dismantling of the British nuclear capacity and the prospect of an independent Scotland..."

In your plea to have Alex Salmond "stopped", you should remember that he is only in position because he was democratically chosen by the Scottish electorate.

This could only have happened if a significant number of the Scottish public held a different view from your own.

The Scottish public have consistently shown that they do not want nuclear weapons based on Scottish soil or Scottish waters or any more nuclear power stations.

This reminder that he is democratically elected is important because of your assertion that he will bring about an independent Scotland. He will not. He aims to hold a referendum on whether Scotland should seek independence.

Only the Scottish people will decide if Scotland will be independent; not Alex Salmond or those who would try to stop him.

"..under Salmond hosting Hamas conferences and drawing up a special relationship with Teheran."

This is just nonsense. Your reference to Iran is shamelessly misleading, as that was an example of Iranian opportunism to embarrass Westminster, than any form of mutual respect between Tehran and Edinburgh.

As to whether Scotland would pull out of NATO, that could only happen after Scotland is independent, and would be determined by Parliament, not by Alex Salmond.

talorthane

Ann

I must reveal that I do know a few things about Scotland, having lived here for the duration of my life.

Wherever you live, I'm sure you know that part of the world better than me, and I wouldn't contemplate suggesting otherwise.

As for the Palestinian Flag, while not offended by the incident, I think you'll find that was more to do with the values of George Galloway and the Labour Party of the time, than anything inherently Scottish.

As for the rest of your post, accusing others of whining and being disrespectful, I can only suggest that you take a self-awareness class.

M Clyde

Ann, let me explain it to you in simple terms.

Support for independence in Scotland has fallen to only 20% since the SNP came into power.

Most Scots don't want to leave Britain, and Alex Salmond knows this.

Nothing however is more calculated to increase support for independence in Scotland (or England) than traditional old fashioned English bigotry.

Alex Salmond's ploy is therefore to pick strategic quarrels with England that will 'light fires' in Scotland, fanning any smouldering embers of anti-union resentment into a full blaze.

So you rise to his bait by doing this.

An independent Scotland run by Alex Salmond would not make England a safer place. Or a richer place either, if current assessments of North Sea oil are to be believed (there are sources further west, off Lewis, yet to be tapped). The man has got to be stopped.

Show some responsible British solidarity here and stop whining yourself.

You would never have won a war!

Ann Cherwell

"Contrary to the predicable Scottophobic remarks made here by 'little Englanders' (?)"

A predictable jibe from a member of a nation whose MPs vote on MY laws despite having no mandate from me or my peers, and who in true weasely fashion prevent me and my peers from voting on THEIR laws.
Are you really not the least bit ashamed of your part in this? That says volumes about you.
If objecting to such an oppressive situation makes me a 'little Englander', then I wear that badge with GREAT pride.

D Gray

To Alan143......you need to take a chill pill mate and lie down in a darkened room before you blow a gasket.I wouldn't want to be a 'Hereford' type so you can relax on that one.

You mentioned that the Scots are sending down 'filth'.If by that you mean the 59 MPs we send to represent us out of the 650 at Westminister then they are currently outnumbered by English filth 11 -1.If it hadn't been for the English electorate voting for the party those people belong to that you refer to as filth then the filth would never have got into power in the first place.Or are you one of those that think 59 MPs rules the other 590.The question the English need to ask themselves is why you cant produce one decent politician to replace the 'filth'.I dont know 1 English MP apart from David Davis who is worth a vote.I know the English cant wait for Dave 'down with the yooof' Cameron to take his backside into no_10 but he is as talentless and clueless as Brown is.But hey,he's English so he'll do.The labour party,libs and Conservatives are a bunch of self serving, selfish goons who see parliment as a way of making cash while wringing their hands.The Scots were so weary with Labour that they voted in a minority SNP administration as a way of protest and desperation.But the SNP will blow it like all governments do and we will be left with the same old faces.....just like you will when Cameron turns out to be all talk and no balls.I am not only Scottish...I am British like the other 75% of Scots who respect and honour the union and wish to see it continue.We are ALL at the mercy of fools with fine words and Scotland can only vote for in good faith the people that promise to fulfil their manifesto.Had we known nu labour were a bunch of lying scum who would betray us at every turn we would never have voted for them and neither would the English.So where does that leave us....the Scots know well the treat of islamist violence and its spreading isideously like a melted turd.The bravery of the few prevented mass murder in the name of islam last year at Glasgow Airport so can we dispense with the lame accusations of isolationism.Melanie's comment that an islamic state might appear on England's border was unusualy extreme from someone who is normally brilliant at overviewing current events.The SNP will pay a price for aligning themslves with an extremist islamic group mainly because we dont put up with politically correct,liberal,socially engineered bed wetters for long.They wont be able to hide.I have already written to Alex Salmond's constituency office with a tirade of truth about the SIF.We are also battling islamic fundamentalism up here....just because the BBC does not report it or because you dont know about it does not mean we are unaware of its threat.As for the rest of the comments from people who think so little of Scotland...just remember the men and women fighting for our country in fields of war who fight for the union jack and Britain.Just a pity none of you were in Edinburgh last week for the Iraqi/Afghanistan vets parade you could have told them to their faces how little you think of them.

D Gray

For John Doe.....odd that all the things you blame and accuse Scots of is all the things you display yourself.

Is it not in ENGLAND where gun crime,drug abuse,mass stabbings,thuggish behavior and general street violence consumes much of the BBC's output these days.Or how about the drunken children and youth coked out of their skulls on your glorious housing estates.Your feral brats intimmidating and terrifying grown adults into fear of leaving their homes.Or the islamist mental cases who freely and openly boast tirades of hate against you and your coming doom.Is it the hundreds of street gangs on the streets of London that have turned a once great city into an international embarassment.Or maybe its the record cases of alchoholism and marriage break ups.And what do you and all the other little keyboard ponces do while this is going on...boldly declare that 'Scotland is a mess'.Go for it mate,your doing me all the favours.Your country has no moral compass,you are without any direction and coherence so you do what generations of Englishmen do.....blame the Scots.Keep it up,you at least provide something to laugh at.How revealing that you and so many others jumped at the chance to criticise an entire country and people and all because Melanie brought up 1 instance of islamic influence on the SNP.Is it any wonder so many Scots loath you and your triumphant bigoted ranting.I wonder if Melanie would allow this sort of abuse to appear on her blog if it was directed against the Jews?

M Clyde

talorthane, we're getting off message here, but briefly:

1. Salmond democratically elected? With a majority of one? People have all sorts of reasons for voting. Scots have been voting tactically for years now. A vote for Salmond was a bloody nose for the pathetic and corrupt Scottish Labour Party, not a positive choice, per se. That's not to say that the electorate might change its mind though.

2. Salmond can't achieve independence by himself? Ever heard of demagogues? Nothing is more calculated to drive reluctant canny Scots towards independence than English bigotry. Hence Salmond could yet achieve this by picking strategic quarrels with England that will fan the embers of Scottish resentment into a full blaze. He has the political skill to do this. He is greatly egged on and helped in this task by numbskull English bigots though. Pathetic, really. These folk are not British patriots, that's clear.

3. Iranian opportunism? Well here we agree a little. But Salmond didn't exactly hotly dismiss this, did he? Suited his 'quarrel' strategy, perhaps? But then have you noticed the antics of the Scottish Palestinian Solidarity Campaign and its close links with the Scottish parliament, via the cross party group on Palestine, of which SPSC is a member?

Why do we have/need a cross party group on Palestine? Why Palestine, and not 'the Middle East' or 'Africa'? Hey, 'Europe' would be a good idea... This is a measure of the pro-Hamas climate that prevails at Holyrood, but no thanks to the Scottish people, but to lobbyists and interest groups and an uncritical, uncurious press.

Scotland has a weak political culture as you know, but I do not believe that most Scots would actually support such antics if they were better politically informed.

phil

M Clyde "Alex Salmond's ploy is therefore to pick strategic quarrels with England that will 'light fires' in Scotland, fanning any smouldering embers of anti-union resentment into a full blaze."
I could not agree with you more !

And Talorthane as you say the Scots elected him but as always, it is those of us who are apathetic who do not turn up to vote --viz the bad old days in the unions when militants were in charge because they did turn up .Surely if the Scots did turn out AS would be gone .

.My personal feelings is that although we exchange banter and compete healthily with each other ,basically we are family and would be much weaker without one another .I have always had a mistrust of Alex Salmond from the first time I heard him and I have learned to trust my instincts -and they tell me that man is not good for Scotland .Anyone who cohorts with the likes of quaradawi fills me with foreboding.The Scots are a great people and need to wake up to what is happening to them before it is too late
.My erstwhile" friend." paul hill laughs when I say we must heed the lessons of the great Winston .but we all now know he was right .

logdon

Salmond is of the same mould as Livingstone. Canny and cunning but infected by the same hubris. Following the failed Glasgow bombing all kinds of assurances were handed out by him and his clan to Muslims in Scotland. From the effusive messages one could have been forgiven for mistaking the event as that of a Christian attack on Islam such was the groveling. 'We will not tolerate islamophobia in Scotland' overlooked the fact that the highest form of racist prejudice had just been perpetrated on Scottish soil, that of attempting to kill, disfigure and maim people of other faiths or nationality based purely on faith and nationality. Muslim sites even went so far as to suggest charging John Smeaton with assault for his heroic deed of downing the burning jihadi. (So much for loyalty, we can see quite clearly where their sympathies lie and it's not with the land these ingrates chose to settle in. This is not just Scotland's problem but an infection coursing through the veins of Europe.) However Livingstone lost to a rank outsider who no doubt he regarded with total contempt right up to the day he was defenestrated. His face told it all. For that to happen in such a multicultural city such as London was nothing short of a miracle. Scotland has far fewer Muslims and judging by the mayhem their football supporters created in Manchester after losing the game, a lot more unreconstructed racists and violent hooligans. Unfortunately they also have a lot of socialists who somehow ally themselves with Islam and particularly Palestine. That is the propellant to this lunacy. Adding to this toxic, convoluted mix, Salmond's opponents are a doomed Labour with a gurning Wendy (I didn't know I was cheating, honest) Alexander in charge. That is why the Scots voted his way. They don't want independence from Britain, just independence from Labour. Annabel Goldie seems eminently sensible but it seems like the mere glance at a Tory gets them foaming about land clearances, William Wallace and Robert the Bruce so I guess the Scot's are in a quandary. Maybe we should send McBroon and his compatriot cabinet members back to sort it out. Now that would cheer me up!

M Clyde

Ann Cherwell,

Don't forget Northern Ireland while you're at it!

Yep, 9 DUPs voted with Brown to get the controversial 42 days through... might have failed otherwise...

There are countless occasions during the last century when the NI parties were used by governments to get controversial legislation through - and not a cheep out of the English about their 'rights'! Funny that... couldn't be xenophobic knee jerk reaction, could it?

Have you ever heard of the party whip? Could I just point out that with the sole exception of the SNP, unlike the Ulster Democratic Unionist Party, 'Scottish' MPs at Westminster are part of mainstream BRITISH parties and vote along BRITISH lines according to their respective BRITISH party whips regardless of their constituency base. They vote on BRITISH issues as their BRITISH party has decided. Their constituency base is immaterial to the voting outcome.

A majority of English MPs have however been voting on MY laws in MY country for 300 years. That's because English MPs form a majority in the UK, which is stacked against 'regional' minorities. Thus we have had our coal and rail industries forcibly nationalised in the 1950s against staunch opposition, then scrapped or sold off in the 1980s, and then the Poll Tax laid on us - all by English MPs.

That's without getting into the utter fiasco of Westminster's mishandling of North Sea oil.

Gordon Neil

Whatever one might think about Ms Phillips views on the prejudices of the Scots, the central point of her posting is surely to query why the Scottish First Minister, who is supposed to defend and uphold democratic governance and democracy itself, acting as some sort of patron to an Islamist. By definition someone dedicated to the eventual overthrow of democracy and its replacement by an Islam theocracy Why did he provide him with a research post, who paid him and for what ? Why has he not challenged his possible adoption as an SNP candidate ? Why is he giving succor and access to influence to an organization closely associated with the MB and led by this man ? These are reasonable questions to ask and deserve an answer

Kirsty Shaw

To "Neil Sanders"

I think you are the one that is naive and very ill-informed as it seems.

'Devout Muslims (as you probably know) have a sacred obligation ("taqiyya") to lie to the "kuffar" (i.e. the non-Muslim) by concealing or misrepresenting their true beliefs and intentions'

I am a Muslim so I would know that that is simple bull shit. So according to you all Muslim organisations are terrorist organisations? Yeah of course if they were a terrorist organisation, they would hardly be organising a rally against terror now would they? Charade you say? somehow I think not. I think its time people accepted the fact that not all Muslims are terrorists

M Clyde

logdon, phil, I agree 100%. This is a British problem and it deserves British solidarity, not falling out about the workings of the Union.

It's like a marriage. It can go through rocky patches and there has to be give and take. Stirring up resentments deflects us away from the bigger picture.

Islamists and the Lisbon treaty pose greater threats to our British freedoms.

But the political problem Scotland faces is real, and the main issue, for me, is the MSM. There is no effective opposition. Wendy is deeply flawed and she was the ONLY member of Scottish Labour willing to stand after McConnell resigned. Annabel Goldie is useless as an opponent of Salmond and is in fact being courted by him. The Tories were offered sweeteners to get the budget through, so she is in the big tent now too.

The BBC just reported that all the Scottish leaders were at the SIF launch today, and all spoke, as did Cardinal O'Brien for the Catholics. Apparently Wendy was unable to speak because of a throat infection.

I despair.

With a political class like this how are the Scots to become better informed unless there is a critical and curious media willing to investigate Saeed's agenda?

Wadi Amin

talorthane.

Thanks for the info but I re-iterate: you speak in the present tense, what matters it the future.

I would take issue BTW with the 1% figure, but whatever it is, it's not going to stay that way long.

D Gray

The Scots dont foam at the mouth mr logdon,so try to moderate your language.Nobody talks about land clearances as all the people who had an opinion went to New Zealand,Australia,the USA and Canada and built countries.The only time we talk about Sir William and King Robert is with reverance and thanks as they were sent like archangels by God to save our country from anihilation and subjigation.English history is full of examples of imperialist invasion and mass murder so I understand your supiriority complex as a defence strategy.As far as Mrs Goldie is concerned she is respected by everyone in Scottish politics as the best leader in the parliment which is why the Tories got lots of votes last year in the election.Maybe you could offer an opinion on the SIF which is what this thread is suppossd to be about and leave your other comments for the pub.

alan143

To M Clyde @ 12:33

Rightly said, keep up the good fight there. I am sorry for my part in the ragging, and I’ll try to be more polite.

B U T

You’re worrying about one (one!) muslim ghetto forming in the UK, in Glasgow. OK, here’s the ghetto success list so far, courtesy of the crowd at Westminster:
http://ukcommentators.blogspot.com/2008/06/massacre-of-comments.html

Do you expect their help in Glasgow? Your problem is that you’ve started getting it.

You’re worrying about the UK being “ejected from the UN Security Council, especially after its loss of nuclear weapons”. But things have got a fair bit worse than that in England. Who can still be concerned about such high-flown trivia as the UN and A-bombs now?
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1029551/A-load-hot-air-Why-spending-100bn-windfarms-EU-Labours-greatest-act-lunacy.html

You’re worrying that the “Iranian ambassador has already congratulated Salmond on his 'foreign policy'” Do you think Westminster is on a different road? – the EU wants far more trade with Iran.
http://www.familysecuritymatters.org/publications/id.379/pub_detail.asp

You’re commenting on the “craven attitude of Strathclyde police in failing to tackle Asian crime.” This implies that you haven’t yet heard of our muslim policemen, enforcing sharia law in patches of England, thanks to Westminster.
http://www.brusselsjournal.com/node/3322

You darkly threaten that the SIF will “provide a cadre of Islamist leaders produced in Scotland, who will NOT, of course remain there, but settle elsewhere in the UK.” – Uh, what are talking about?? We have thousands in England already and they’re spreading fast, financed by Westminster and others. Spreading at long last even to Glasgow.
http://www.mi5.gov.uk/output/Page373.html

Salmond got elected. So did Nu-Labour. I would like to keep Westminster’s character different from Salmond’s or a similar shyster, but I don’t see how:
http://swordinthelake.blogspot.com/2007/03/mad-mad-mad.html

All voters can do in the circumstances is elect David Cameron’s latest PR company. Terrific – he’ll skip those “Hamas conferences” you mention - but he still thinks this kind of stuff is a Good Thing (except for the author’s wish to solve the problem of course):
http://www.americanthinker.com/2007/07/europes_existential_mourning.html

Who will the “majority of Scots who are decent citizens like John Smeaton” elect for us next? If this SIF affair prepares them then that will be good start.

alan143

D Gray @ 3:33pm said: “you need to take a chill pill mate”.

This can be arranged. You see while I wrote that post I accidentally polished off all the scotch, which must have seemed appropriate at the time. At least I didn’t get grandpa’s kilt out of the cupboard and dance a jig.

Oh and that reminds me, before I respond to the rest of your longish post, I must just pop out...

D Gray

To Logdon..........are you seriously suggesting that because a few hundred Rangers fans went on a bender in Manchester that Scotland has more 'unreconstructed racists and violent hooligans'....than where...England?You obviously dont watch the news.Acording to the BBC the English population cant leave their homes without being subject to stabbings,shootings,gang fights and drug dealers.Not to mention the no-go areas for whites and Christians.Added to that the full 30 years of violence and murder by English football fans across the whole world....people in glass houses.If your country is down around your ankles then dont vote labour at the next election....like you all did at the last one.You all seem completely and utterly unable to accept that English people sent back HUNDREDS of labour MPs and bleating about how much they have screwed things up is exactly what you were all saying the day before the Tories were got rid of because the Tories made an arse of it to.And when your wet dream comes true with Dave boy Cameron as prime minister {a man who hasn't an idea in his head} then you be raging against him and his parties' failure 10 years from now.British politicians are amongst the most talentless and yawn inspiring in the world.They are ruining a once great country and care nothing about the damage they do.You can blame the Scots all you want for Britains political mess but it is merley a way to externalise your own dislike of another country without coming up with 1 solitary idea of how the problems are to be solved.David Cameron is not the answer,he is a moron.Perhapes what these comments reveal is how racist,bigoted and spiteful English people are towards the Scottish people....and just think,those are all the things you just love to accuse us of.

D Gray

Please dont dont respond to my post Alan,if its anything like the usual attempts it wont be worth your while even attempting a cohesive sentence.

Neil Saunders

To Kirsty Shaw

Well, at least you've admitted that you are a Muslim.

If anyone reading this doubts that there is such a thing as taqiyya, they are welcome to do a Google search.

(You are rather like the Cretan who says that all Cretans are liars!)

Incidentally, either you have a poor grasp of basic logic, or you are wilfully misrepresenting what I said in the post to which you have attempted to respond.

The point I was trying to make was this: there are Islamic organisations which - in accordance with taqiyya - misrepresent themselves as moderate when they are not. This is NOT the same thing as saying that all Islamic organisations are immoderate, although this is a hypothetical possibility, I suppose (one which turns upon questions such as whether all nominally Islamic organisations are permeated by Islamic ideology and whether Islam itself is inherently lacking in moderation).

By the way, you do not need to enclose my name in quotation marks; it is genuine. You will forgive me if I remark that Kirsty Shaw is an unusual name for a Muslim; is it your real name?

Ann Cherwell

It is nonsense for talorthane to use the figleaf of 'Oh, it was only Galloway, oh, it was only Labour'. This kind of nonsense is what has given Scotland - once tough and proud - a reputation for whingeing.
It happened in Scotland. Bite the bullet and live with it.

M Clyde, I have served in the Armed Forces in war situations: have you? Don't try to give me lessons in winning wars, let alone patronise me.

Ann

"That's because English MPs form a majority in the UK, which is stacked against 'regional' minorities"

Then secede, for crying out loud. You keep telling us that you are a nation, not a region. Start behaving like one, instead of whingeing about the last 300 years. That's the past. we are talking about now. And the now is that your MPs are voting on matters affecting my country, while my MPs can't vote on yours. The fact that you don't find this despicable says a lot about the honour of the Scots.

Ann

"Acording to the BBC the English population cant leave their homes without being subject to stabbings,shootings,gang fights and drug dealers"

And you believe everything you hear and see on Al Beeb? LOL.

There are very dangerous places in big English cities, but not more so than in Glasgow.
There are large swathes of safe places in England, just as in Scotland.

As to no go areas: without Scottish Labour MPs, ZanuLabour would not have been able to crush freedom in England as much as it has.

Ann

What the heck is a 'cohesive sentence'? Oh, you mean 'coherent'.

Ann

"it deserves British solidarity, not falling out about the workings of the Union"

Yes, you would say that, since it works in your favour. Like a robber baron saying: now is not the time to talk about social justice and political fairness, let's discuss it when I have retired, I am too busy making money now.

Kirsty Shaw

To Neil Saunders, yes my name is real, why would I use a fake name?
Admittedly I don't have the most common Muslim name nonetheless it doesn't make me any less Muslim. As you have probably guessed I'm a revert. In reference to taqiyyah, it is a shite ideology which is justified by misquoting an ayat of the Quran in which a Muslim is allowed to lie only to save their own or someone elses life. This has been interpreted by some shias to mean that they can misrepresent something to their advantage. This is a shite ideology not an islamic one so the point in which you make that islamic organisations misrepresent themselves in accordance with taqiyyah does not hold. I'm glad that you have kind of agreed that not all islamic organisations are immoderate and would urge anyone reading this to do a bit of research beyond the tabloid paper to find out about organisations before jumping to any conclusions regarding them.

As I've already mentioned Melanie didn't even do enough research to get the name of the chief executive right and to be honest this just goes to show how much effort was actually put in to writng this piece and questions its accuracy.

Geoffrey

Re Osama Saeed and "taqiyyah". As Osama himself once observed:

"This is a word I first came across at Harry's Place a couple of years ago when I was engaged with someone in the comments section, only to be accused of this. I had to go and look the word up."

http://tinyurl.com/48p4tm

This is hardly surprising. "Taqiyyah" is a term exclusive to Shia Islam. Osama is a Sunni.

London Calling

A good post Melanie, it may seem like a small fire to some, but I would be very concerned about anyone who is affiliated with the Muslim Brotherhood if the claims are true, simply because affiliation is followed by infiltration and the 1% Muslim population in Scotland isn’t the
issue here, its about power and the misuse of power and the threat that it poses in the long run and you are right to highlight it.

Having visited the Regents park Mosque here in London this week, (the largest in Europe)
for which I volunteered to assist on a school trip for a Teacher friend of mine from a Catholic primary school, I came to some very disturbing conclusions.

Nazi ideology was born out of a desire to rule the world, ruled by the Aryan Race.

Islamism Ideology is born out of a desire to rule the world,
ruled by Sharia law and the Islamic faith.

There is no political party on earth more powerful than one that is based on religion or should I say that hides behind religion, and whilst our young Muslim guest showed us around the Mosque, of which 7000 Muslims are accommodated at Friday prayers, I realised how well organised and interwoven Islam is as a way of life and how as a political base has created an ideology that has cloaked peaceful Islam.

If Islam was simply a religion to advance ones spiritual growth through study and faith then it would pose no threat to others, but Islam isn’t like any other religions, because it is being used as a clever machine that has fooled everyone including peaceful Muslims.

The problem here of cause is if you speak out you are attacking Islam, and extreme Islam will attack you, because you have offended God and until people wake up and realise that God has been hijacked in the same way Islam has, the Islamist Ideology will succeed where Nazism failed, and the small fire that now burns low shall become an Inferno that we would have handed power to so willingly.

talorthane

Oh, I give up.

Scottish politics will continue, and I can say that most people in Scotland feel things are getting better...in Scotland.

Most people in Scotland do not perceive any significant racial or religious problem in Scotland, except for the one problem we have in eradicating the protestant / catholic sectarianism that remains. But there is progress there too.

And most people in Scotland wish no ill will towards England, but sometimes misdirect their anger at the dynamics of Westminster control and London centrality towards the country whose capital it is.

The vast majority of Scots hold Scotland to be a country, rather than a region, and accept the country's current position in the UK on pragmatic grounds.

However, there is a growing feeling that, more and more, we ARE a different country, from before, and from England. And that this is a positive thing. (i.e. hardly anyone wants the Scottish Parliament to have less powers).

Despite what some have said here, support for independence is growing, with the most recent opinion poll (on the question that the SNP intends to ask) having a greater number in favour of independence than against it. (44% to 41%, I think itwas). None of the loyal UK media have managed to summon the courage to test this since.

Importantly, what is becoming clearer with each passing month, is that there is very little sense of Britishness. Most support for the continuation of the Union is based on what is perceived to be best for Scotland, not for Britian. So some people need to understand that as it presets a different problem than if it were assumed that everyone in Scotland is loyally British and are being duped, in some way, by Alex Salmond.

People are voting for the SNP, in greater and greater numbers, because his party represents a growing mood in the country.

The biggest mistake made by the author of this article and several of the contributors is the assumption that familiar problems in London(istan) must also be happening in Scotland too.

If any of you were to finally accept that Scotland may be different than London, andthat we may have probelms that you do not have, and that we may not have your problems, then you may get closer to understanding some of the problems here.

Lastly, there is something extremely important about to happen, with Scotland, and with the UK. The results will be inspiring for both Scotland and the other countries of the UK, partly because democracy is moving closer to the people. It would be a great shame if anyone missedout because their head was in the sand.

M Clyde

'That's the past. we are talking about now. And the now is that your MPs are voting on matters affecting my country, while my MPs can't vote on yours. The fact that you don't find this despicable says a lot about the honour of the Scots.'

The fact that you don't understand the principles involved in a union of several parts 'a la longue duree' says a lot about your intelligence.

As I have explained, voting is British based amongst mainstream British parties, England has a built in majority and this notion of yours is a mischevious red herring designed to stir up antagonism.

But do go on! Bay for secession!

England would not be a safer place with an independent Scotland and Alex Salmond in charge at its back. I can guarantee you that.

The Union came about in 1707 because Scotland was the back door to France. Now it could be the back door to Teheran and Hamas.

But do go on! Undermine the Union! Salmond would kick Trident out of the Gairloch, and then where would you put it? The Solent? He would pull out of NATO so all the NATO infrastructure, all the listening stations and RAF bases would go too.

But you'd have English votes for English matters in your shrunken, defenceless little patch, and that's all that matters, isn't it?

Neil Saunders

Kirsty, what on earth do you mean by "revert"? Surely you mean "convert".

There is EVERY reason, by the way, why your name on this forum might not be your real one. Do you imagine for one moment that "cuffleyburgers" or "Ben Doon and Phil McCracken" (to select some posters' monickers at random) are their real names?

You are not being quite candid about taqiyya (however you care to transliterate it). I would refer readers of this thread to the excellent article about it on the "Islam Watch" site. (Since this site does not allow live links, I shall not bother to give one.)

By the way, I have most emphatically NOT "kind of agreed that not all Islamic organisations are immoderate". First, one either agrees or one does not, there is no intermediate "kind of" position available. Second, you once again misrepresent (either through stupidity or malice) what I actually wrote.

I would also urge readers of this thread to watch the splendid series of videos about Islam (and other religions) on YouTube by the brilliant Pat Condell. Pat mercilessly skewers the politically-correct ninnies who act as enablers and apologists for clerical fascism.

Neil Saunders

To "Geoffrey"

You are talking nonsense. Taqiyya has currency in both Shia and Sunni, as Warner MacKenzie's splendid article on "Islam Watch" makes abundantly clear.

I would frankly be amazed if Osama Saeed had genuinely been ignorant of the concept in the manner that he claims.

Kirsty Shaw

Neil Saunders

From your ignorance it is clear that you have no clue about Islam, the correct term is revert not convert. Look it up and trust me when I say you wont find that information on Islamwatch.

You are the one that was trying to make my name into a big issue, notice how you asked me wether it was my real name even though it had no relevance whatsoever.

'You are talking nonsense. Taqiyya has currency in both Shia and Sunni, as Warner MacKenzie's splendid article on "Islam Watch" makes abundantly clear.

I would frankly be amazed if Osama Saeed had genuinely been ignorant of the concept in the manner that he claims.'

Wrong again, ask any Muslim on the street what taqiyyah is and most of them if not all have most likely never heard of it before. Now once you ask them and they have no idea, then explain to them what it means and they will tell you and rightly so that it is not a part of Islam.

I've just tried it myself I spoke to one of my Muslim friends who is a sunni and asked her what she made of the word and she had no clue either.

So stop delibretley trying to mislead people about Islam especially since you don't have the faintaist clue about the religion yourself. By the way to learn more about each religion I'd advise anyone to actually read the religous books rather than watching youtube videos.

'By the way, I have most emphatically NOT "kind of agreed that not all Islamic organisations are immoderate". First, one either agrees or one does not, there is no intermediate "kind of" position available. Second, you once again misrepresent (either through stupidity or malice) what I actually wrote.'

Do you agree that all muslim organisations are terrorist organisation? (answering yes or no as you seem to believe there is not intermediate, which is stupid becausse you can partially agree to something, or agree to some extent, but a yes or no would do quite nicely)

john doe

The whole concept of 'revert' is repulsive and offensive. It implies that Islam is the only true religion and that we are all Muslims really...we just have to admit it and 'revert' to our true lost and abandoned path and nature. This is revolting totalitarianism.

Brian Moshe

Those commentators below that pour scorn on the very notion that Scotland could ever become an Islamic country would do well to look at the history of Scotland (and Britain as a whole).
The first Christian missionaries who arrived in Scotland, England Wales and Ireland came in tiny numbers. The population of the British Isles was - as far as we can ascertain - quite happily practicing their ancient pagan religions and rites. The first Christian missionaries - foreigners and with different beliefs totally hostile to the pagan religions - must have seemed like irritating interlopers.
Yet within a couple of hundred years despite lack of transport, local insularity and almost total illiteracy, a handful of monks had turned the British Isles and Ireland into Christian countries with Christian kings.
Once something like this has happened it can always happen again. Given the fact that every day Islam is advancing in Britain it is entirely possible that Scotland will sooner or later succumb, just as it is obvious this fate awaits England.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Congratulations, London Calling, on "Islamism ideology is born out of a desire to rule the world...", but "they" won't listen, just as "they" wouldn't listen with regard to Nazism (until Winston Churchill came along and saved the day) - and this threat is far more serious!

Neil Saunders

Oh dear, Kirsty, you are getting frightfully worked up! Funnily enough, the more worked up you get, the poorer your spelling gets (e.g. "delibretley", "faintaist"). Indeed, your final, parenthesised sentence degenerates into complete incoherence.

Frankly, I lack the time and the contacts to conduct a straw poll of the average "Muslim on the street" regarding their knowledge (or otherwise) of taqiyya. I only note that Osama Saeed hardly fits that description.

With no evidence whatsoever, you accuse me of ignorance of Islam. Actually, I have read dozens of reputable books on the subject, most notably the works of Karen Armstrong and "What The Koran Really Says", edited by Ibn Warraq (Prometheus Books, 2002), an excellent book which I recommend to all readers of this forum.

Furthermore, I own (and have read) two different translations of the Koran. (I cannot spare the time at the moment to learn classical Arabic.)

I do not know whether all Islamic organisations are terrorist organisations or not. It is difficult to know how anyone would go about finding this sort of thing out, since organisations that ARE terrorist are likely to be highly secretive and difficult to penetrate. (I also lack the relevant training to infiltrate and investigate terrorist organisations.) Personally, I think it very unlikely (although I admit that I lack evidence), but I entertain it as a somewhat remote hypothetical possibility.

Once again, I commend the excellent article on taqiyya by Warner MacKenzie on the "Islam Watch" site, should anyone have been "delibretley" [sic] misled by Kirsty.

phil

Kirsty Shaw this war of words with Neil attains nothing ,but what is needed is for moderate Muslims such as you to speak out loud and clear within your own community and have them reject the values of the militants amongst you
.
You have a British name (not that that is important)but if you are a Brit you will know what a welcoming union we are and how racism is for the ridiculous.It is also a Christian country and although I am not one I happily accept it and try my best to fit in and enhance our society ,.nor do I demand my own laws (I accept you probably do not either)-The Brits have taken in all manner of ethnic minorities and given them a chance of a better life .my own family included,and all they ask is that we fit in with the British way of life -I think that is not too much to ask for .

Ann

"Cameron as prime minister {a man who hasn't an idea in his head}"

Oh, dear. Another poster who is incapable of reading what Cameron has actually said are his ideas for government - or has made up his mind in advance and will not let a mere inconvenience such as facts stand in the way of his bigoted hatred.

MIKE

Looking on the bright side,all the Islamist extremists in the other parts of Britain,might be tempted to go and live in the tartan Caliphate.At least we'll know where they all are!

Ann

"From your ignorance it is clear that you have no clue about Islam, the correct term is revert not convert"

This sickening statement is enough in itself to show the totalitarian mindset at work in all its ugly colours.

MD

To nail this claim of Kirsty's about taqiya being alien to Sunnis, here is a quote from www.tafsir.com: "believers are allowed to show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly. For instance, Al-Bukhari recorded that Abu Ad-Darda' said, "We smile in the face of some people although our hearts curse them.'' Al-Bukhari said that Al-Hasan said, "The Tuqyah is allowed until the Day of Resurrection." The Al-Bukhari referred to was a ninth century Sunni scholar credited with the most authoritative hadiths. My problem with the idea of "reverts" is different to John Doe's. It is with the idea that sinlessness can be associated with an ideology which identifies in effect as untermenschen those who do not embrace it and whose preachers continue to legitimise the use of violence against them. Which is why some quite public organisations are so relaxed about the use of terrorism to attain political aims, but in these days of moral relativism, who in government or the MSM gives a monkey's? Here's an early example of taqiya in action - the Treaty of Hudaibiyyah. There's probably no need to go into the amount of the violence used and the character of that violence here. And nowadays we have a greater awareness of who did what to whom and under what pretext.

Neil Saunders

Oh yes, thank you for reminding me, Ann. I forgot to respond to Kirsty on this topic.

After reading the original post in which Kirsty employed the term "revert" I consulted my Concise Oxford English Dictionary (the standard everyday authority on the English language), but could not find a single entry (under the relevant headword) defining "revert" in the sense claimed by Kirsty to be the genuine one.

I can only conclude that it is an Islamic term of art (translated out of Arabic, or perhaps Farsi or Urdu) that has not yet become truly English.

The term seems rather appropriate, given that Kirsty's co-religionists seem to want our society to revert to something similar to the Arabian peninsula in the 6th century!

D Gray

Ann you are such a little fool.A bleater and grief merchant so consumed with your own tedious notion of self importance{no doubt put there by your invisible friend}Your eagerness to try to pour scorn on my country was done with the same hunger as a vulture at a corpse.You have yet to even mention the SIF and the story Melanie related.....instead taking the opportunity to vomit some good old English malice.If its not the Scots the English are spiting at its the Welsh,Germans,French,Americans,
Irish....in fact anybody that isn't English.All it proves dear is how much you despise yourselves.

The Scots have contributed more to this union per head than 10 Englands,including more men perhead into the armed forces than the Irish,English and Welsh put together.God only knows how we have managed to put up with your ungrateful girning,whinning and idiotic supiriority complex.Maybe thats why so many muslims want to live in your coun