Whoops! Someone's goosestep is showing

David M

So what is the alternative then?

I support the BNP becuase there is, quite frankly, no other option available other than surrender to the forces Melanie so rightly points out are destroying us as a nation.

I have challenged this board several times to point out a real alternative but noone has tken up the challenge.

So, what is it to be, then?

No Good Boyo

Anyone who uses "whilst" is by definition not normal.

Rob-NY

Spot on Melanie. The BNP and the far left have much in common and it will become clearer in Britian as the years go on. The image of Joesph Goebbles and Walter Ulbricht (first leader of the DDR) seated together in the early 30's plotting against their mutual enemies which were Germany's social democrats and conservatives moderates comes to mind. In the US there was the shocking image in the 1960's of George Lincoln Rockwell of the American Nazi Pary with swatsika armband comfortably seated with hundreds of members of the all black Nation of Islam. As Goldberg reminds us in his book "Liberal Fascsim", the left spawned fascsim and leftists are in deep denial about this as they call anyone even slightly to the right of them a fascist.

Rumbold

Lee John Barnes always comes onto Pickled Politics and accuses us of being Stalinist Hamas-lovers, so he is an equal opportunities abuser.

Kevyn Bodman

This is something Melanie feels, and indeed reasons, very strongly about, but I think she's gone on at unnecessary length about it.
The BNP is anti-Jewish and always will be, and nobody is surprised by that.

I think more important is to help to stop the rise of the BNP by
a) getting mainstream parties to address the issues of immigration and growing Islamisation

b) completely nailing the lie, and be clear that it is a lie, that it is racist to be opposed to the growing Islamisation of Britain and Europe.

The post today will not change anyone's mind, but that is what is needed.

The first two and the last two paragraphs are the most important part of Melanie's post.
And there is another article that could be built from there.

Bob Latchford

Ah, I wondered where it would be, and there it is in the penultimate paragraph. The BNP's attack on British Muslims is a 'genuine grievance' used as tactic to garner support for their further grievances, which Ms Phillips presumably feels are not quite as genuine

Brian Moshe

As a practicing Jew I could not possibly belong to any political group that supported Lee Barnes's comments above, anymore than I could cosy up to anti-Israel apologists or the vast majority of Muslims.

It does bother me - every single day - that there is no political party in England that addresses my worries and my fears about the erosion of British identity (yes, I am as loyal and patriotic as any Brit can claim to be) and, yes, I do believe with every single passing day we in Britain are one day nearer to an Islamic state and an Islamic Europe and I could weep with despair as it happens before our very eyes.

Only two alternatives would seem feasible, given that the BNP isn't really a place I can go to, and these are to settle in the USA if I can, or settle in Israel even if it means dying for her existence.

There is no peaceful or prosperous long-term future for
anyone like me in Britain (or in Europe).

Indigenous White Anglo-Saxon Male

In writing this wicked lie you have exposed yourself for what you really are.
Never mind, it makes money eh!

Shalom

Alan O'Reilly

David M is absolutely right. What is the viable alternative to the BNP? No-one has yet provided a realistic answer.

And if this comment does not get published, I hope, Melanie, that you will be apprised of its contents, inasmuch as I would like to ask you, 'Would you be prepared to debate on prime-time television the proposition 'the BNP is a vile, racist Party' with Nick Griffin?'

The size of the viewing audience might rival that of the interview with the late Princess Diana conducted by Martin Bashir.

(If any network was honest enough to sceen it, an issue in itself.)

You should also remember the appalling events at the Oxford University Debate last year, with Nick Griffin present. It would be wholly disingenuous to blame the BNP for what happened.

I would add two points, as briefly as possible.

1. The idea that the BNP is only superficially 'respectable' is akin to the principle of the storied Pendle Hill witch trials by ordeal. The suspect was rolled down the hill in a barrel. If the alleged witch was killed, then justice was done. If the victim somehow survived, summary execution followed, on the basis that witchcraft was obviously at work.

i.e. 'Damned if you do, damned if you don't.'

That's about the level of current criticism of the BNP. Moreover, most of the article focusses on Lee Barnes, who could doubtless provide a spirited answer on his blog. But Lee Barnes is an individual. He is not the BNP and not, to my knowledge, its official spokesman (Simon Darby is the BNP Press Officer - what comments do you have about his blog, Melanie?).

2. Yesterday was July 1st. The BNP has sought on its site to commemorate that date as the first day of the Battle of the Somme (endured by men whose mainly Gentile comrades-in-arms liberated the then land of Palestine from the Turks. That fact of history should not be forgotten either).

The BNP has at least embarked on such a oommemoration. To judge by what has appeared in the MSM, the Westminster 'old gang' three-headed hydra couldn't give a collective tinker's cuss about such matters, but they are still important to many English Gentiles whose parents and grand parents fought in the World Wars.

It will come as a shock, Melanie, but I think that in days to come, you and others like you, e.g. Natasha Kaplinsky etc., will find that the BNP are among the few Gentile friends that you have on the national political/media landscape.

Kevyn Bodman

Melanie,
I hope you will take up Alan O'Reilly's suggestion/challenge.
Nick Griffin is very bright and articulate but so are you.
Let's have these issues examined.
And I think such a debate probably would get good viewing figures.

Also Melanie, how about you offering an invitation/challenge to 'Labour's zealot nation-destroyers and the feeble hand-wringers of the Conservative party.'

Alan O'Reilly

Thank you for printing my comment.

Of course, I meant 'commemoration' not 'oomemoration.' Blog commenting is not ideal for zero typos, I fear.

john beatson

I once heard Nick Griffin speak in a local pub in Sheffield where I and a few friends was having a drink after work

No jack boots, racism or bigots just the words of the British working man.

The B.N.P. are growing in membership plus popularity because Britain needs them instead of this corrupt traitorous parliament we have had for the last 10 years

This comment is from an ex steel worker who has worked all his life

Ann

Why on earth do you perpetuate the Goebbelsian lie that they are "liberal classes"? The people who refuse to permit discussion about unlimited immigration are not "liberal". They are FASCISTS.

Ann

Being an ex steel worker is relevant how, exactly? Do you think it gives you any extra privileges? Any special insight? Any special right to support a racist bunch of thugs? Or do you think that antisemitism doesn't count as racism?

phil

If you are opposed to the masochistic multicultural deathwish peddled by mainstream partys, the only alternative is the BNP, Thats why i will vote for them.

Harvey

I agree that Nazi scum with PR skills are still Nazi scum...

You rather lost me after that.

M McGregor

One could also write an article entitled "Whoops ! Someone's Anti-BNP Bigotry is Showing!", about this carefully put-together mixture of half-truths and complete nonsense.

While I was still a Conservative, I was drawn to the British National Party mostly because it was the only political party standing for the traditional values that the Conservatives (and very many grassroots Labourites) once stood for; but my early interest was reinforced by the hysterical language used by the media when referring to the BNP; by the seemingly unbelievable ignorance of its policies displayed by so many writers; and by so many oft-repeated lies : they had to be lies, not just more ignorance, because I found them to be so easy to disprove.

"Opportunistic" and "A bunch of viciously racist and anti-Jewish bigots" ?

' Racist' like Margaret Thatcher on TV in 1978 calling for a "clear end to immigration", and saying that "people are really rather afraid that this country might be swamped by people of a different race" ? Is that 'racist' ? Or Ms Phillips herself with talk of "the destruction of British national identity" and "the indigenous British community"? Is that 'racist' ?

Unlike Lab-Lib-Con, the BNP does not examine the polls to decide how it can continually
change its opinions to garner votes. It actually has firmly held, clear views. It has never pretended to regard Islamification as the sole or even main threat we face, but as perhaps the latest, most powerful weapon to promote the racial, cultural and religious identity of our people. As a party where membership is restricted to Whites, it sees no contradiction in welcoming support from Non-Whites with equally traditional views; who have a similar pride in their own customs, and do not seek to force them on everyone else; have their own, exclusive organisations; and recognise that native Britons have the same rights.

Unchanging views are not something a New Conservative would understand, of course. It doesn't need to be cynically
'opportunistic' like the Tories from Margaret Thatcher to Mr 'Opportunity' Cameron himself; it merely has to expose the contrast between its own determination to resolve Britain's "genuine grievances", and the empty rhetoric of its main-party opponents.

"Anti-Jewish"? The BNP is no more anti-Jewish because it opposes the activities of many Jewish organisations and individuals supporting the undermining of Western identity, than it is anti-European because it opposes the EU and its supporters for the same reason : as BNP support for Israel's right to self-determination illustrates, and its own Jewish members can confirm.

The very existance of the BNP is to be 'blamed' not just on "Labour's zelot nation-destroyers' or "feeble hand-wringers of the Conservative party", but also on people like Ms Phillips who offer no realistic alternative to policies they recognise as disastrous, but parrot the insults & abuse aimed at those who do.

phil

Indigenous White Anglo-Saxon Male ---your post indicates to us all what is abhorrent about those that think like you.

George Steiner

The enemy of my enemy is my friend. Unless you can come up with somethin beter, to do away with my enemy Ms. Phillips?

phil

re phil
July 2nd, 2008 6:09pm-
-I have to say that I am the phil who posts here regularly and what this man has said is a joke in bad taste or just a mistake by him, but it has happened twice now and I hope Pete will address the writer and ask him to change his pseudonym -it is no doubt obvious to all that I do not agree with him .

Alan o.reilly my grandfather fought on the Somme and we are Jewish ,please be a little more circumspect .We are all patriots no matter our religion .

phil

David m -the answer is rather simple -start to impress on your party of choice your own personal thoughts ,that is what we do here -we try to influence each other .Do not give in to the racists through frustration that is their dearest wish,and would be our easiest failure .

Andrew

I have a great deal of respect for you Melanie and I agree with a lot of what you say.

However, I vote BNP whenever possible and will continue to do so until such a time that the grave concerns of the people of this country regarding Islamisation, mass immigration and erosion of British culture are properly addressed.

In my opinion, if the mainstream parties are concerned about the rise of the BNP then they should bloody well do something about it. Somehow, I don't think they will.

It seems we have little alternative.

phil

M McGregor-i doubt the tories would have been happy to claim you -your remarks about all white membership seem to define your lack of understanding of what this great nation stands for -and as for claiming Jewish members ,that really is some joke.maybe you will name one at least ,and I mean one who is actually Jewish .you may be deluded yourself but I dont think we will be

phil

And now having got a lot off my chest here this evening ,I (the real phil) am going for my supper and I hope most of you enjoy yours .

Ian Greene

It's not surprising that .."many otherwise (sic) decent British people now refuse to believe that the British National Party is what it is" - or rather, what the media universally says it is : " a bunch of viciously racist and anti-Jewish bigots", as Melanie Phillips charmingly puts it.

Most don't know that our newspapers function under a written directive from the National Union of Journalists to only ever portray the BNP in a bad light, and to censor anything which cannot be distorted. Still, they have begun to realise that the invective that always accompanies reports is reminiscent of the cold-war Communist propaganda where every reference to the West had to have 'warmonger' or 'fascist'
tacked on to it. Very little of those reports could be relied upon, either.
The Internet in particular has undermined the ability of the Press to suppress the truth for ever, but there's nothing like actually meeting people to discover just how false an image you've been fed.

Graeme

I have been on Ali Miraj's Blog nad it says he was a braodcaster for the Islam Channel. according to a Pakistani Muslim friend of mine, the Islam Channel is a Saudi Arabian financed channel of hatred. I have watched the Islam Channel a number of times and Channel of Hate should be its name. Is Ali Marij really a fundamentalist entryist in the Tory Party and false moderate? Can I have some feedback from anyone?

Arthur

How about a live radio or tv debate between Melanie and Nick Griffin?

What do you say, Melanie?

I bet everyone here would welcome it.

phil

M McGregor-i doubt the tories would have been happy to claim you -your remarks about all white membership seem to define your lack of understanding of what this great nation stands for -and as for claiming Jewish members ,that really is some joke.maybe you will name one at least ,and I mean one who is actually Jewish .you may be deluded yourself but I dont think we will be

phil

sorry didnt mean to post the mcgregor one twice

phil

Am I cynical or does anyone else have the suspicion that the BNP is targeting this thread ?

John Williamson

The white British working class (male) has been demonised for the last 30 years or so as the source of all evils in the U.K.

If all the mainstream politicians can offer this group is shrieks of "racist", "sexist", "homophobe", "misogynist" etc rather than sit down and engage with them then a BNP vote will be exactly what this country deserves.

M McGregor

Although I consider myself a reasonable knowledgeable supporter, and entitled to give my personal opinion on policy, I have no right to actually speak on behalf of the British National Party, or give out information about members.

But : real, persistent, wilful ignorance is certainly irritating. And, someone who regards the essence of nationality as being determined by - possession of a piece of paper ? or where your parents happened to be when you were born ? - anyway, nothing to do with race (if the Angles and Saxons had been Zulus and Eskimos, it would have made no difference, I suppose ?) should at least be put right when it can be done simply.

So, Phil, having presumably swallowed everything he's been told about the Party, genuinely doesn't believe that it has Jewish members, and presumes to describe the statement that it does, as being 'deluded', or a "joke".

Really ? Well, Cllr. Mrs Richardson (Loughton Broadway) head of the BNP group of councillors on Epping Forest District Council, is Jewish.

Check it out. And check out the rest before making or trusting sweeping, utterly inaccurate claims.

Commondog

phil.

Seeing as the main subject here is the BNP, is it not in order that people from, or sympathetic to that organisation, might be allowed to contribute?

Could that qualify as dialogue?

Lee John Barnes

Hi Melanie,

I have posted a response to your article on my blog here ;

http://leejohnbarnes.blogspot.com/2008/07/melanie-phillips-and-spectator.html

Please leave your comments,

all the best,

L. J. Barnes

Arthur

It appears Mr Barnes has published a response -

http://leejohnbarnes.blogspot.com/2008/07/melanie-phillips-and-spectator.html

Battling Brummie

The BNP is not far right. It is not even centre right. It is far left. It is a collectivisit party. It is the only party advocating renationalisation, for example. Hitler himself recognised in a speech in 1941 that there was essentially no difference between National Socialism and Marxism. If you don't believe me read your Hayek. Alternatively, you might care to reflect on the name of Hitler's party: National SOCIALIST. The branding of racist parties as right wing is absolutely incorrect. Melanie, we expect better from you!

PMN

The BNP is the ascendent party in the UK. Hope we get something similar to it soon in the US (third parties are presently excluded from the process). Our corporate masters and and handful of lobby groups run both parties in this nation. It's unbelievable who they have selected for the show election this year. But we'll get the government we deserve- until the walking brain-dead here awake from their comas.

Frank McGill

I had thought to highlight the distortions in your rant Melanie but frankly having read it for a second time your blind bigotry is not worthy of contention.
All I would say is debate with Nick Griffin if you are so certain of your viewpoint though I know you dare not.
"Who is to blame for the rise of the BNP? Labour’s zealot nation-destroyers and the feeble hand-wringers of the Conservative party." The only sentence that had some ring of truth. I don't see anybody stopping either of these two parties changing their ways and properly addressing British peoples concerns but we both know they will not because they are drowning in a sea of left wing liberal dogma, treason and corruption.

Commondog

It is ironic that the repeated and extremely successful charges of 'Islamophobia', are so unassailably effective, precisely because of the post WWII shame over the holocaust.

The very hint that one sector of the community is the subject of victimisation, immediately flashes up the same images which we have all vowed must never be allowed again, and so the blanket is thrown.

Hence we are duty bound to object to nothing, to allow anything. We cannot demand that we protect our national identity because this is so easily mis-construed as the insistence that we are superior and exclusive and that we will pursue this belief to the point of exterminating those who resist. The National Front made themselves easy prey by becoming the receptacle of such base beliefs. The BNP have fared little better.

This does not however, banish forever the legitimate desire in the British people for a revivified national self belief.

It is only in Britain and the other few countries who carry this holocaust guilt, that 'nationality' is a dirty word - where it's pursuit is stifled. Go to Gambia, Peru, India; go anywhere outside those countries which centrally bear the WWII scar, and tell them they should not be proud of their nation. See how far you get.

We need to move on or we will be moved out.

Antisocialist

Melanie, you may have a point if Lee Barnes had targeted all Jews rather than a small elite. As you rightly pointed out he supported Israel in it's struggle against Hezbollah and everything I've read on the BNP site (note the article you refer to was on his personal blog not the BNP's) has been largely supportive of Israel in it's fight against it's Islamic threat. Isn't it possible that his criticism of a small group of Jews who are disproportionately represented in Hollywood is valid? He certainly isn't generalising about 'all Jews'. I am largely supportive of the positions you take but having read his article I think you may have been oversensitive in your reaction (goose step?). As I understand it I strong;y suspect the BNP may well be a much needed ally of the majority of British Jews in the turmoil that is inevitably going to come.

phil

Commondog -of course but do you not find it strange that so many have found this thread at one time -its hardly a well known place to post -and in any case on a place where we all debate sometimes very strongly about morality and our varied views of that ,I am very unhappy hearing from those who only allow white people into their membership .I think we normally agree with each other,s views but in this case I see these people as beyond the pale .

Andrew

Phil

Perhaps you are underestimating the depth of feeling amongst much of the population.

As it stands many people already vote BNP. They are not knuckle dragging skinheads, they are just ordinary Brits.

Consider the London Mayoral election. Over 200,000 votes was it? Have you seen 200,000 skinheads walking around London?

phil

I do not normally spend this amount of time posting ,but I have never before been so angry at the lies and distortions I have read today .Mr barnes has written on his web claims that would make any intelligent persons hair curl - CST which is an organisation of volunteers to defend synagogues and Jewish gatherings (why is that necessary?) are insulted with ridiculous claims of being Zionist• activists-does he even know what a Zionist is ?for those of you who do not know it is the wish of a Jewish person to live in the holy land -nada mas .The young men who do this thankless task do it out of community spirit for no pay and work alongside the police .not some furtive underground organisation .

I cannot speak for Hollywood scriptwriters and why they do not portray rabbis as scoundrels ,perhaps it is because they are not,and are any of you frightened of them ,do you think they may knife you ,beat you up or blow you up -I think not .

Regardless of all the above this thread is about the BNP and in part their "support" for the Jews -it is nonsense -anyone with any commonsense will realise that had the Moslems been in the third Reich it would have been them who were the prime target for hitler as his scapegoat ,and only because they were a more easily seen and larger group not because they would have deserved it ,and here it is easy for BNP to support Jews and be seen as "goodies" but have the Moslems as their prime target -

Do you find it strange that I worry about Moslems ? I dont, they deserve peace and quiet as we all do, it is only a small group of deluded people referred to as militants who are causing all of us the troubles we are enduring -these BNP people are opportunists taking advantage of the problems we are facing and appearing on this thread "en masse" they are a minority in this land and will remain one so long as the Uk retains the morality and courage that has made me so proud to be a citizen .

phil

Mr mgregor- "-Mrs Richardson, who has the rare distinction of being the BNP's only Jewish councillor"
http://www.wansteadandwoodfordguardian.co.uk/display.var.2221571.0.epping_forest_bnp_slammed_over_disgraceful_faith_comments.php

I am not very good at this link stuff but any one can find an enlightenment on the good Mrs Richardson by goggling her name and checking the above article where she was labelled a disgrace -""You are a disgrace to this council and you are a disgrace to our community"-

I very much doubt if she is welcome amongst any Jewish community-so do you really think I should believe anything you say ?
PS the article is in the wansteadandwoodford guardian 24/4/08 and no doubt in the minutes of the epping forest council minutes .are you proud of your protege

phil

Lee John Barnes -I dont know whether Melanie will be bothered to read your blog but you will no doubt be pleased to know that I did -can I ask you if it was you who I saw in "one flew over the cookoos nest" ?it certainly brought back memories and your style of writing does have a ring to it .It is sadly the outpourings of a very troubled man and maybe I will have a little more sympathy for you than Melanie who you grossly insult -you supporters have been here in force today which will make you feel a little better ,but unfortunately many have made fools of themselves-one even thinks you will have a parliamentary majority within 10 years but not if this is true -
In the House of Commons 50 MPs signed an Early Day Motion condemning the BNP’s actions. It read, “This house deplores the unlawful action of the racist and fascist British National Party in once again breaching the Representation of the People Act-well Lee bye bye for now ,hope you feel better

Monty

Melanie, has it ever occurred to you that the more mainstream support the BNP get, the less scope they will have for anti-semitism, and other forms of extremism? Right now, the BNP is looking like the only weapon we have to defeat islamo-fascism.
If you have a better idea, I would like to hear it. We have already been treated to the spectacle of a prominent British muslim leader, bleating about the vile/noxious British Jews he would like to get rid of.
Naturally, you seem to want us to exert control over the anti-semitic tendencies of political parties and movements. Fair 'nuff.

But we are not allowed to criticise islam, muslims, or any of their cultural practices. Every political party except one, will cheerfully criminalise us for the sin of free speech. The folk who support the BNP have nowhere else to go.

So melanie, who else should we vote for?

Joe Camel

Islamophobia is cool.

If somebody tries to shut you up by calling you an islamophobe, you can simply answer, "Yes, I am an islamophobe," and carry on from where you left off.

Charles Harling

Actually, this Barnes fellow makes some decent points.

Your article simply adds weight to what the British National Party have been saying for some years now. It is unfortunate for the British people that this kind of blatant deception on your part is allowed and even encouraged by those with whom we entrusted power.

Here is the full paragraph regarding what Barnes is saying about the Lancaster Unity site:

"Whilst the old alliance between the UAF and Searchlight was dismantled precisely because the UAF finally realised that Searchlight was a Zionist front group using anti-racism as its cover to promote Zionism in the UK, the Lancaster Unity site is run by a shaky coalition of Jewish extremists with a pro-Zionist agenda as the main unifying force between the various factions."

The full paragraph puts what Barnes is saying into a somewhat different, larger and far more interesting context than that which you state. In addition, there is absolutely no reference in the article to Israel.

I encourage those reading this to follow the links kindly provided by Melanie and read the article, from a somewhat more objective viewpoint of course.

It seems to be that it is becoming increasingly apparent that the media are deceiving the people of this land. But why are they deceiving us? That is the question ....

It is a very interesting site. The chap is a little hot headed and I may not agree with everything he says, but I can recall several times in my life that a lack of knowledge on particular subjects has given me cause to disagree with the opinion of others. I will give this gentleman the benefit of the doubt. He has certainly earned himself a place in my bookmarks.

Thank you Melanie, for opening my eyes a little wider.

Robin Zander

>Who is to blame for the rise of the BNP? Labour’s zealot nation-destroyers and the feeble hand-wringers of the Conservative party.

Commenting from across the pond here. I agree 100%. C.S. Lewis forsaw this decades ago, in his brilliant 'Screwtape Letters':

"Now, this useful phenomenon is in itself by no means new. Under the name of Envy it has been known to humans for thousands of years. But hitherto they always regarded it as the most odious, and also the most comical, of vices. Those who were aware of feeling it felt it with shame; those who were not gave it no quarter in others. The delightful novelty of the present situation is that you can sanction it -- make it respectable and even laudable -- by the incantatory use of the word democratic.

Under the influence of this incantation those who are in any or every way inferior can labour more wholeheartedly and successfully than ever before to pull down everyone else to their own level. But that is not all. Under the same influence, those who come, or could come, nearer to a full humanity, actually draw back from fear of being undemocratic. I am credibly informed that young humans now sometimes suppress an incipient taste for classical music or good literature because it might prevent their Being Like Folks; that people who would really wish to be -- and are offered the Grace which would enable them to be -- honest, chaste, or temperate refuse it. To accept might make them Different, might offend against the Way of Life, take them out of Togetherness, impair their Integration with the Group. They might (horror of horrors!) become individuals.

All is summed up in the prayer which a young female human is said to have uttered recently: “O God, make me a normal twentieth century girl!” Thanks to our labours, this will mean increasingly: “Make me a minx, a moron, and a parasite.”

Meanwhile, as a delightful by-product, the few (fewer every day) who will not be made Normal or Regular and Like Folks and Integrated increasingly become in reality the prigs and cranks which the rabble would in any case have believed them to be. For suspicion often creates what it expects. (“Since, whatever I do, the neighbors are going to think me a witch, or a Communist agent, I might as well be hanged for a sheep as a lamb, and become one in reality.”) As a result we now have an intelligentsia which, though very small, is very useful to the cause of Hell."

Robin Zander

So, the Labor-Tory-LibDem aristocracy has said that the white working class is pure evil and has blamed every possible evil on them. It's a self-fufilling propecy. If everyone hates me for being x,y,z, I might as well just become x,y,z.

Marcus from the USA

BNP supportive of Israel???

Thankfully not! I saw Mr. Griffin's speech at Michigan State University on Youtube, and he was generally supportive of the Palestinian position.

He rightfully stated the roots of the conflict lie in British colonialism and Jewish apartheid, and even made a half-hearted apology to the Arabs for Britain's part.

Now why would the BNP take a negative attitude against Hezbollah, a legitimate freedom-fighting militia, is something I cant seem to understand.

Perhaps political pandering/positioning on the BNP's part.

Cheers from Los Angeles, CA

Martin J

Well, unless you have any other solutions to the destruction of national identity? the BNP it is. I for one have got quite bored with the liberal flim flam and am quite happy for the far right to do what most otherwise normal people now wish to see done!

LT

Be careful what you wish for David M. The BNP are socialists albeit of the national variety. Fascism is on the rise again in Europe and the half wits and apologists for the BNP remind me of the people that voted for Hitler and Mussolini. You will rue the day you ever voted for these bastards mark my words.

Dave

Is 'M MacGregor' the same Mark MacGregor chided by Thanet South Conservative Association in 2006?

Jim Rockford

The BNP hates Jews, true. But so does the BBC, the Anglican Church, polite British Society, and Labor/Tory. So what's the difference?

The BNP oppose Islamization and Sharia, and Labor/Tory supports both. That's it.

Choose: anti-semitism and Sharia/Islamization, living in a burqua or robe, or anti-semitism and staying Western and British.

That's life, mostly bad to worse choices. Britain I'm sure will choose Sharia. Lacking any guts at all. When are dogs illegal again? [Muslims object, Labor/Tory collapses.]

Harvey

Battling Brummie...

Yeah, right - and War is Peace, Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength.

phil

Kevin B, having slept on my efforts yesterday ,I am more than ever sure that this is a concerted effort by the BNP to get their supporters to write into this thread and also to goad Melanie to arrange a tv debate with Griffin -more great publicity for him and his odious views .Respectability is what they all crave and will never receive,some no doubt are just frustrated by the lack of real leadership from our own choice of parties and perhaps are not real right wing extremists by nature ,but many here are expressing loathsome views from what is still a tiny minority of normal Brits .I hope Melanie will not fall for this ruse as she will know that "all publicity is good publicity"

Our nation did not fight a 5 year war and lose countless lives in order to give in to these hateful politics -I have no doubt I will not have changed the mind of even one of these posters, but I feel better for trying to uphold the morality of real British people . I am sure I am not alone .

Runesword

The BNP's newspaper editor responds here -

http://www.martinwingfield.blogspot.com/

Melanie, you are no better than the lowest and most venal of the traitors. You have declared yourself an enemy of the true, Indigenous Britons.
You are a liar and a backstabber. You are part of the enemy within.

Roy

Can't help thinking that support for the BNP is better than supporting the major parties if they consistently refuse to see sense. They seem oblivious of all the concerns discussed at length on these columns. The BNP might not be perfect, but they stand for England and Britain. What do the others stand for? Nurse maid to all and sundry who turn up on the doorstep? Are we not at war with the terrorists? Then why do we harbour them? Time and time again we hear of insulting behavior from ones who have been given refuge here, not a word from the powers that be.

Adam B.

Marcus, it says a lot about you that you agree with a modern day Nazi sympathiser. Hence your obsession with Jews.

Arthur

Is "phil" one of your cronies from the uaf, Melanie?

Of course such creatures don't want you to debate with the BNP.
They know what would result from it, and that is their greatest fear.

But the truth is coming out every day, and those like "phil" will perish in its light!

Andrew

Phil

Slept on it, have you?

Let us know when you wake up.

Andrew

I think it's despicable that ordinary Brits who have no one else to turn to except the BNP are labelled as racist Nazis.

We are being railroaded into a multicultural nightmare, our childrens future cast aside.

Try and discuss the issues without the pathetic name calling please.

For those who dislike the BNPs all white membership, do you share the same concerns about the MCB or the numerous black/ethnic only organisations. Are they racist too?

Geoff Miller

Quote.

"the fact that our current mainstream political class has either ignored or actually caused the destruction of British national identity and is now busily appeasing the Islamists who seek to colonise the ruins which has created a powder keg among the indigenous British community and given the BNP its current opportunity."

Well said.

I'm no "jew hater" but I do support the BNP. I have heard no anti-jewish sentiments but many sympathising with the plight of Israelies - there but for the grace of God etc.

My parents generation gave its best years to fight nazism. My parents lost their late teens/early twenties to save Europe and the jews and one uncle witnessed the labour camps.

However, over the last 40 years - since my school days in fact - I have witnessed the constant and progressive erosion of my native culture. The removal of educational opportunity and aspiration from the white working classes is a crime. The loss of our cities to millions of unwanted migrants and the corresponding rise in disease, crime, drugs and, now, terrorism is shocking.

Correspondigly, the likes of me, a tall auburn haired and green eyed Briton (how racist!), are now vilified and discriminated against because of our race, appearance and heritage.

Look around. Who stands up for us? Who cares about the indiginous people of these islands?

Every racial group in the UK is encouraged to stand up for its rights - every one but the British.

Why are they encouraged whilst we are deemed racist if we stand up for ourselves, our race and our culture?

Hey, we can't even have St Georges Day celebrations in England for Christs sake!

If you dont like the BNP then show me a big mainstream political party that does put us first in our own land. If you can I'd support it as would most of us but it doesnt exist.

Why were Gandi and many other black and asian leaders, and their people, applauded for driving the British out of their countries and yet we have no equal right of self determination and community in Britain?

If I am bitter its because I have seen, heard and experienced enough.

More than enough.

Now its time to fight back and we will have every means already available to our enemies to ensure our survival as a people. The more we are held down the greater will be our struggle.

Its only natural.

Or do you think we should just go quiely into the night?

Heywood Jablomi

Teabags, wake up and deal with your mushlum problem. It's almost too late.

Huw Thornton

@phil 10.23

"I am sure I am not alone "

You're absolutely not alone, phil.

Huw Thornton

@Runesword
@Arthur

I am glad you both posted today. You show more about the real nature of the BNP than any number of BNP press releases.

marwan

If the BNP was truly anti-semitic I suggest they would be making common cause with the islamists who, after all, make the SS seem moderate. They are clearly moving towards the non racist nationalism of the French national front and as such should be encouraged rather than scorned. I support any party with the courage to take on islamic fascism.

Keith Julian Farrington

I do not accept Melanie's comments although I generally am spot on with her. I love Israel and I support it spiritually and financially. I have even considered becoming a Jew and going over there to assist in their life or death struggle. However the BNP is the only EXISTING and credible alternative to the ZANULIBLABCON alliance that is a conspiracy against the British-Engliah people. Like Israel, we are in a life or death struggle for our continued existence with this government who wages economic, social and legislative war against the majority of people in this country. I believe that these comments are not in line with Nick Griffin and the majority of folk who vote BNP like me who support brave Israel's cause against terror. Tell me Melanie, what else can we do as we see our lives being destroyed by Marxist doctrine and uncontrolled immigration?

phil

Arthur - no I have never met Melanie-I wish i had -she stands up and is counted ,and when this thread is history you will fade back into the dark recesses of obscurity -I do hope Arthur will eventually see the light as he puts it ,perhaps when he grows up .
.
Andrew your quote--"As it stands many people already vote BNP. They are not knuckle dragging skinheads, they are just ordinary Brits" ----some may well be and they are the victims of the BNP -you seem to have a desire for things to be better,it is a question of how we achieve it ,but our friend Arhur answers the description in your quote ,do you really equate with him and those like him ? I suspect not,you are frustrated like many of us are. I am a descendent of immigrants who integrated into this wonderful country and hopefully added to its culture-we do not sponge ,we do not violate any part of British life -we pay our taxes and try to be model citizens-should we not aspire to help those who have come among us to integrate too and add value to our lives -think again Andrew I don't think you are lost,just worried .Please believe me I am awake .

phil

Andrew these posts are rather slow today so I don't know which order they will come up but to answer 11.16 --yes absolutely !! , I believe all people are born equal and we must learn to respect each other and our differences.we can take pride in our heritage without disdaining that of others .Many years ago when I took on my first trainee he was Pakistani and my secretary hated him ,after some years she loved him like a son -it taught be a very valuable lesson and a simple one -we just need to mix with one another ,some you will take to and others not

Geoff Miller

To anyone reading these comments who only knows the BNP from what it reads in newspapers then look at their website!

Remember, the NUJ has adopted a marxist policy of denigration and deceit. They will not print anything positive about the BNP and always seek to smear it rather than honestly portray the party and its members.

Typical of the communists who control the media and government.

Dont be fooled.

Check the facts out for yourselves.

Make up your own minds - dont have them made up for you!

charles soper

Well said Melanie, hating and fighting racism is still as essential as combating radical Islam (which at home is often just as racist as the execrable BNP). Fighting on one front

charles soper

Well said Melanie, hating and fighting racism is still as essential as combating radical Islam (which at home is often just as racist as the execrable BNP). Fighting on one front and ignoring the other is a recipe for disaster!

Tancred

Well at least Joan Rivers likes blond guys:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zUwTbonTCLc

phil

Huw Thornton ---thank you Huw -on this thread it feels it some of the time .Nevertheless I am getting the feeling that some of the `people who write in to say they have no alternative are not natural BNP supporters,just very frustrated people like the letter Geoff Miller wrote in .The mainstream parties really have to address the frustration felt by so many of these people and not leave it to the BNP to hijack them .I think they would flock back in droves to mainstream politics varied as they may be .

alan143

Lee Barnes has posted a very ill-advised response to Melanie’s criticism. For example he warns us that “The Spectator is a Tory propaganda magazine, staffed by Tory supporting puppets and Israeli stooges.” Talk about an own goal, and this is just one among dozens.

For that response, I would expect any association of his with the BNP to be rapidly ended.

The question that worries me is whether the BNP still need to keep up appearances just to survive electorally?

Over at Gates of Vienna today, they mention an on-line poll by the Swedish tabloid Aftonbladet. Almost half the respondents now expect a civil war, instigated by Islamic immigrants and their appeasers in central government. I’d reckon that a similar poll among the English alone would show an 80% majority.

In run-down, overrun urban England it may already be too late for Melanie’s niceties. The Sun readers of England are choosing sides for the big one. God I hate nu-Labour.

Gabriel

No alternative? Nonsense, vote UKIP

Gareth

Lee Barnes is obviously an idiot. Why assume the rest of the BNP is the same?

Herbert Thornton

One the one hand, Melanie clearly recognises the nature of the Islamic threat to western society, the surrender of British independence, the decline and dilution of decent British standards and freedoms and the extent to which the sickness of political correctness has infiltrated British institutions all of which are being acquiesced in and even orchestrated by the main British political parties.

But on the other hand she seems unable to see that the BNP is the only party that is determined to rescue Britain from these evils.

It has been said that a common phenomenon among Arabs is the capacity to firmly believe, at one and the same time, two mutually inconsistent and utterly contradictory ideas. Melanie's antipathy to the BNP seems to be a puzzling instance of the same sort of phenomenon.

W. Smith

Aaaargh! Melanie! Why do you persist in referring to the BNP as "the far right"?! They're not right-wing at all: they're SOCIALISTS, and like all Socialists they *hate* resourceful people who quietly mind their own business and prosper (which the Jews have done throughout history, in the face of horrendous persecution). It's just more obvious in race-obsessed socialist groups like the BNP.

Why do you always shy away from stating the obvious: that antisemitism is so much more prominent on the Left than on the Right? Leftism is a doomed ideology which always leaves social and economic carnage in its wake. Please help fight it, by identifying it wherever it rears its head.

And I've no time for all this lamentation about "who else can I vote for, now that the Tories are all multiculti hand-wringers" --- without one mention of UKIP, who have a larger following than the noxious BNP. Doesn't anybody read a manifesto these days? And why do you, Melanie, go out of your way
to avoid mention of UKIP --- even on your anti-EU rants? They're a bit of a Dad's Army outfit, but their numbers are growing and they (generally) fire in the right direction. Doesn't that count for anything?

Ann

"He rightfully stated the roots of the conflict lie in ... and Jewish apartheid"

With you around spewing this antisemitic drivel, we don't need the BNP anymore.

Ann

"You are a backstabber"

The eternal mantra of the true Fascist. Thanks for making it so easy!

Ann

"But the truth is coming out every day, and those like "phil" will perish in its light!"

If that's not a direct quote from the Stuermer, it's remarkably close to it in style.

Ann

According to Herbert, the only way to fight Islamic racism is to embrace BNP racism. And he thinks SHE is confused!

Herbert Thornton

"According to Herbert, the only way to fight Islamic racism is to embrace BNP racism." says Ann (whatever 'Islamic racism' means. Darfur maybe?)

Actually, Ann, I would support the BNP even if they were racist - for exactly the same reason that I applaud the Japanese for having the common sense to discourage all immigration into Japan. If that makes the Japanese 'racist' then I have to ask the same question that Enoch Powell asked - i.e. 'what's wrong with racism'?

David H

Being very concerned about Islam I had a good look at the policies of the only party that seemed to be addressing the issue of Islam properly. I came away with the feeling that I was looking at a socialist party. Truth is this far right monikar is a load of rubbish. It seems that if you believe in the rule of law, common sense, freedom of expression and personal liberty you are labelled as a fascist by fascists, fascists are those that do not believe in those key terms.

Now I agree with the BNP on Islam, but afterwards not much else.

If our existing parties were actually listening about immigration instead of calling anyone who talks about it a racist, or doing something about the loss of fundamental freedoms to the biggest anti-democratic force in Europe I would be happy, but they are not.

The terrible thing about all this is where does one go with ones vote, the BNP deal with the two things that concern me most the Islamic issue and the EU, all I can say is help!!!!

Ann

Herbert isn't convinced that a party whose membership is restricted to whites is racist (I am not sure whether it's true any longer - can someone confirm? - but it was stated as a fact by a BNP supporter several posts up, so let's accept it for the moment until this is clarified one way or t'other). So, how do you define 'white'? Ever heard of the Nuremberg laws? Is someone white if one of his/her grandparents is half-white? What about great-grandparents? At what point is the 'bad blood' sufficiently diluted so as to make the person 'white' again? Ever? Never?
This whole idea of pure blood is racist, but maybe you really can't see it.

Ann

W. Smith, you are spot on about everything - except that fighting the EU's pernicious empire is not 'ranting' but telling the truth.

phil

Isn't it strange that there has been no response from Mr mcgregor ,David m.Andrew,lj barnes-probably because they have no answers.

anglicus

How about this for discrimination;
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4265571.ece
"because of their mother's descent."
Now where have we heard that before.

Caroline

I would like to at least partly dispel the myth about the BNP being a racist party. I have Jewish relatives whom I love dearly. I am also married to an immigrant. This has not stopped me joining the BNP. We have both been welcomed warmly by other members at meetings. My husband recently got the warmest of hand-shakes from Nick Griffin.

Mind you, my hubby is very hard-working and probably puts around £30,000.00 a year into Gordon's coffers. He is perhaps not so typical of the millions that are over-running parts of our our country right now.

During my London visits, I met a number of Jewish members. The BNP, of course, has a Jewish councillor, who will soon feature in a documentary about the BNP. That should be very interesting.

I know little of the "Old" BNP, but, among the people that I HAVE met, I have never heard negative things said about the Jewish religion.

The "Hate" that I have heard expressed has NOT been against "minority" groups of religion, race or colour. It has, 100%, been against successive governments, and particularly the current one, who, by their policies, and particularly through the Cultural Marxism that is Political Correctness, is bringing Britain to its knees and destroying our National Identity and Culture, bringing us all down to the Lowest Common Denominator.

Paul

I'm still waiting for the answer to the initial question of David M ie where's the beef, what is the practical alternative to the BNP? Our main parties are a mere joke afraid to step out of line except to line their own greedy expense sheets at John Lewis.
The longer they leave it the more extreme the reaction will be. I live in Peterborough and it has become a multi cultural hell hole. It is becoming ghettoised if that is the correct term.My local MP does not live in an area like this, he lives in an expensive virtually white only area. He says Peterborough is marvellous, I say its hell. But I know who I'll be voting for next time and it will not be him.

White Rose

BNP beat your Labour paymasters in another 4 council by-elections last night. The people are waking up and don't believe a word you print anymore. I can recommend a good councilor for nightmares.

Caroline

I would also like to add that if it is "White Supremacy" that anyone is looking for, then they will be extremely disappointed if they join the BNP. That is the realm of the National Front.

Re. Lee John Barnes, his own blog is not endorsed by the BNP, even if he is a member. Lee John Barnes is not a councillor either, so it is not as though he holds any political sway out there. At the same time, his view on "Eco-Nationalism", which IS the BNP's view, leaves the "Greens" looking like a bunch of liberal amateurs.

http://leejohnbarnes.blogspot.com/2008/05/harvard-university-and-globalisation.html

Unlike Boris Johnson, whose reference to "picanninnies" and the "water-melon smiles" of black folk was NOT what you would normally expect from a Conservative MP. At least when Enoch Powell referred to "Picanninnies", he WAS quoting one of his constituents!

The BNP does not consider whites to be superior to blacks, yellows or browns. It DOES respect the right of a country's people to preserve their ethnic identity and culture, whether that is Japan, as someone else mentioned, or Iceland, or France, or China.

I also think increasing numbers of ethnically Chinese, black, and Asian (probably Sikh and Hindu) will vote for us in the future a they see the ongoing degeneration of their own neighbourhoods.

I believe, at some stage in the not-so-distant future, that the BNP will open up it membership to anyone, so long as they support our aims. Most people in the party do NOT have a problem with this. Those who do will either leave and join the NF, or adapt. The other possibility, as the party moves into the mainstream, is that the small percentage with more extreme views will form a splinter group. Time will tell.

Andrew

Phil.

You are quite right, it is strange that I have not answered your posts.

This is the third one I have posted since last evening. But they are not appearing on the thread.

No worries, as a BNP sympathiser I am quite used to being shut out of debate.

Check out the council election results from yesterday. BNP support is growing, pretty soon it will snowball.

heinzp

Ann asked about defining race, and then, in an instance of hyperbole, managed to bring the Nuremburg Laws into the question. Ann, are you aware that in schools throughout the land, every child is identified by race? White-Irish, White-Scottish, Black-African etc. In fact on one bit of educational software I saw the detail went as far as Asian-Pakistani-Urdu.
Schools are also set targets about how well each such racial group should perform (White Irish Travellers are at the bottom, Asian-Chinese-Mandarin at the top).
As far as I know the BNP have not had a great deal of influence on educational policy recently, so who then are the real racists who've brought all this nonsense in?

anglicus

Yes White Rose and not a mention anywhere in the media, not a sniff.
What does occur to me after reading all the various posts here is this. The vast majority of the British public do not clutter up their day thinking about the BNP or the Jewish, Italian, Spanish, French etc. immigration over the last say 500 years and who have made a valued contribution to this country. What they do see however on a daily basis is that their country is being systematically being taken over by islam wherever they live. When they read about murders, knifings and the grooming of white teenage prostitutes, that’s when they start getting annoyed. Who do they turn to? newlab and the libdems certainly don’t give a toss, there more interested in beating the motorist into submission, the tories haven’t got a clue and because they now have jolly Johnson as mayor they think they are home and dry. Big mistake. Like them or loathe them the British National Party are filling a gap and they do have other sensible policies other than immigration and they get my vote. Before I get derided by the other hate mongers, let me just say that I grew up in South London in the early ‘40’s/’50’s and saw that part of London slowly disintegrate mainly due to unchecked immigration from the Caribbean. If there is an alternative perhaps Ms Phillips or one of you could tell us what it is.
If the BNP ever did come to power or at least hold the balance of power in Parliament do you honestly think we would see concentration camps sprouting up, or an unofficial army goose stepping along Whitehall, some of you people live in a time warp, this would never happen in the 21st century. What you would see is alien convicts, illegal or otherwise being deported after their release from prison, not being given homes and handouts. Maybe they would be deported after sentence to save us some money.
I really would like to see some concrete proposals from you.

phil

Caroline you seem to be a solid person by your own description,which I believe, but the party you are involved in can only be judged by its leadership ,so may I suggest you check their history -leopards do not change their spots,and warm handshakes do not keep you safe. -they were getting nowhere with their anti Jewish stance because the decent people of the Uk know where that led in the last century ,so they have switched to attacking Muslims who of course are more visible
.Try reading Mr Barnes,s web site ,you may get quite a shock .We all share the same problem ,that of immigrants who do not integrate with us ,and some who want to change our way of life -this is a problem that does need to be sorted out by the mainstream parties and I would agree with all who say they are not doing a good job ,but for us to slide into the hands of opportunistic racists is surely not the way to go .

Ann

Labour paymasters, eh? Someone needs to increase her medication.

Still waiting to hear from the latest BNP groupies how 'White members only' is not racist. Perhaps they don't really understand what racism is. Or perhaps they are just too yellow to answer.

Mark

Ann,

To (partially) answer your question consider the question of reciprocity.

One of the things that most rankles with people is the fact that organisations such as the Black Police Officers Association etc have been set-up with the approval of the establishment. The very fact that this and other organisations are allowed to exist (and are heavily consulted by the Metropolitan Police in particular) can be used to justify (to some extent at least) the existence of any other organisation defining itself by race (or any other criterion for that matter).

Andrew

Phil.

So leopards don't change their spots, eh?

I remember that Tony Blair was a member of CND.

I also remember Labours pledge to take us out of the EU (Kinnock)

There are possibly many more instances where this has happened.

Is it because Labour are not Leopards but instead they are lying Toads?

Or is it simply that Labour are not Leopards but

heinzp

If the Spectator will indulge me, may I add to my last post. The comment should not be read as support for the BNP. The point I was trying to make is that if racism means treating different groups of human beings based upon their race (whether hidden by terms such as 'ethnic group' or 'cultural identity) is not solely the province of the BNP.

Andrew

Ann

I know what racism is. Do you?

If you judge an organisation with an all white membership (which I'm not sure is correct anyway) as racist then you must also feel the same about the numerous Black/Ethnic only organisations.

These organisations are never accused of racism, why should a double standard apply exclusively to the BNP?

Huw Thornton

@Andrew 3.36

I hope that you do manage to get an answer to phil's points posted. I would be interested in your reply.

I don't think that the loss of your previous points is due to anyone blocking them deliberately - regular posters to this blog are used to contributions not appearing. There seem to be technical problems. Some of mine have not appeared in the past, and it doesn't seem to be due to anything that I have written in them.

phil

Anglicus you write "If the BNP ever did come to power or at least hold the balance of power in Parliament do you honestly think we would see concentration camps sprouting up"
My answer is yes I think it is a distinct possibility -this is precisely what happened when hitler started his ascent to power .the middle classes were seduced into thinking his rhetoric was not really meant and in any case he had some "good ideas".they had huge economic problems along with a lack of control on the streets (ring a bell)?-when they woke up to what he was really about it was too late -check out your parties early history and the web sites of those like Mr Barnes .then tell me you would leave your children's future in their hands .I do not think for a moment they mean to kill us but as sure as hell I am not going to take that chance .Nick Griffin may be" Mr nice guy" but he can lose his position and who know what would come next ?

The answer is to try to influence the mainstream parties to get their acts together ,it is not just BNP members who worry about uncontrolled immigration and the usurping of our British way of life ,most of us have the same worries -why not try to get the respectable members of your party to try to get elected as a conservative or labour candidates , and then put responsible questions to the public -I assume you are not one of the bully boys as you have not written in like the crass Arthur or Michael and that you are just a frustrated person .Well David M asked the first question on this thread and I have tried very hard to be polite and provide alternatives ., now I think I have said enough .

anglicus

Phil
July 4th, 2008 6:38pm
You are correct, I am not a bully boy, I am 67. I think you are wrong about the camps, this 2008 not 1938. There is too much information available now via the net and it would never be allowed to happen. so let's just agree to disagree, I am glad that I probably won't be around when the s**t hits the fan in Europe.
I won't post any more comments, you are right I am completely disillusioned with the state of my country now.

phil

Andrew I think I have said enough here ,may I refer you to what I have written to Caroline and Anglicus-the situation is in your own hands .The BNP will never attain power so you are wasting your energies ,you seem an intelligent guy so surely you will see that going mainstream and working hard for your beliefs has a better chance than consorting with Mr Barnes or Nick Griffin -I am not trying to tell you how to vote just put your views on immigration et al where it will count-where you are is counterproductive .

Anglicus thanks for your response ,please do not give up through frustration .you are part of a wonderful country with a record in morality second to none and you are of an age that has seen how good we can be -I am sure you would have voted for Churchill during the war (not old enough I know (lol) so why go with these people with the record they have -they are praying on the frustrated ones like you .when you put your head on your pillow tonight ask yourself "is this really what I am " from the way you write I think you are not -good luck

Jack

A couple of points.
First, too much focus on Lee Barnes. As a BNP member I do think he comes up with some interesting and informative points but he has his his own unique style which is not to everyone's taste, including mine. As someone said previously, he doesn't speak for the BNP.

As for your comment that the BNP is "a bunch of viciously racist and anti-Jewish bigots" I would ask how many BNP members you know and how many BNP meetings you have attended Melanie. You are simply repeating far-left propaganda and you sound ridiculous to everyone who have met or know members of the BNP.

W.Smith

...And STILL no mention of UKIP!

Since it seems no-one can be bothered to get off their backside and go and read their manifesto (how else to explain the ignorance of the "there's no-one to vote for" brigade?), here's their (decidedly un-PC) immigration policy in a nutshell:

"We will freeze immigration for five years, speed up deportation of up to a million illegal immigrants by tripling the numbers engaged in deportations, and have ‘no home no visa’ work permits to ease the housing crisis."

That's pretty stern stuff: surely *that* is the sort of thing which everyone who despairs about mass immigration would want? So why vote for the socialist race-nuts of the BNP?! Vote for a *proper* right-wing party, not another bunch of Leftists!

...And Ann, I wasn't having a go at Melanie --- if she does rant about the EU, then power to her elbow. The dangers posed by the EU can't be emphasized enough. The EU is set to achieve what the USSR tried to do, albeit in a fluffy, caring-sharing manner (for now). And experience shows that nothing will stop it. I vote against it only to keep a clear conscience --- I know the anti-EU cause is doomed.

phil

ANDREW where is the 200,000 votes see below official results-it seems your claim is wrong ?

Candidate name Party 1st choice votes 1st choice %
Boris Johnson Conservative Party 1,043,761 43.20%
Ken Livingstone The Labour Party 893,877 37.00%
Brian Paddick Liberal Democrats 236,685 9.80% %
Siân Berry Green Party 77,374 3.20%
Richard Barnbrook British National Party 69,710 2.89%

Andrew

Phil.

The figure of 200,000 includes second preference votes.

Andrew

Sorry guys.

I am genuinely trying to get back to you on the points you raise but my posts are rarely appearing on the page.

Another one has failed to appear again today. I have copied it and will attempt to post it for the third time. However, I remain suspicous.

phil

Andrew i dont know why you do not get through ,so long as what you post is not too derogatory-you havnt written anything objectionable to me (the odd barbed one ,but thats ok lol.)
the second votes in my opinion are just daggers at the other main candidate as only one of them could win-people are very frustrated we both know that, and as you are passionate on this subject,.all I am suggesting is make your presence felt where it will count..

Andrew

Phil.

Saw your post in the Telegraph on Sharia law.

Perhaps we could discuss more there.

phil

Andrew make sure your popups are marked OK I had this trouble sometime ago or write to
phoskin@spectator.co.uk

phil

Jack, is Mr james not the BNP legal director ?-if you are a decent person which from your post I assume you are ,why do you want to consort with people like him who write such trash on their own website ? I will say to you as I have said to ANDREW-vote mainstream and make your feelings known and your vote count .

Herbert Thornton

Phil - I do not understand your logic.

When mainstream policies are completely opposed to what someone feels, how does "voting mainstream" make his feelings known and his vote count?

phil

Herbert Thornton-my suggestion was to bring pressure to bear upon the mainstream parties who in any case must now be aware of the feelings of so many voters now ,but going racist in any way will bring a backlash in this country .The BNP is making it so obvious that it is against the Muslims and others of any other culture than whites . I have written a lot on this thread and I have no idea if anyone is taking any notice other than our "usual suspects" of my suggestions ,but if I don't try to change your voters minds I will get the society that i/we deserve -an utterly split and probably violent one -you surely do not want that . Perhaps Herbert you will read this little item below and give it some thought-you could add on the Bnp if you like too-

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Pastor Martin Niemöller

W. Smith

HELLO?! Are you all deaf, or are you determined to persist in presenting a false choice between the PC Tories or the old-school socialist BNP? The fourth-largest political party in the UK is UKIP --- and it's socially and economically *conservative*. If you want to protest, choose *them*, NOT ANOTHER BUNCH OF LIBERTY-HATING STATISTS.

So what is it? Are you deaf or just plain thick? We're well along the road to serfdom. You'll get the government you deserve unless you wake up.

Arthur

"phil", what happened after 'they' came for the nationalists?

btw, Barnes isn't a member, nor does he have any official capacity. He's a blogger, and clearly his stuff gets to you, "phil"

Can't wait for Melanies response and rebuttals.

Keep up the good work, "phil". Most people see right through you and go straight to the BNP website to check for themselves.

You missed it, "phil" - you're undying lurve and support for Melanie proves Barne's is right on the money .... duh!

Don't bother responding, you'll only be waffling to yourself and the self-hating, spineless gimps the BNP don't want anyway.

"phil" eh?

Ho-ho!

phil

Gosh arthur how did you get out ? be careful the bogey man may get you.

Andrew

Huw.

Thanks for the encouragment.

I would be only too happy to answer Phils' (or any one elses)
questions.

Problem is, I'm not entirely sure what those questions are.

Phil.

I find your comparison between 1930s Germany and Britain in 2008 quite frankly, ludicrous.

How you can imagine that anyone, let alone the BNP could enchant and mobilise the British people into performing such monstrous acts is beyond me.

Indeed, if you would insist on drawing comparisons within history, then lets consider something a little more recent and ongoing.

I suggest Serbia and Kosovo is a good example.

Here, we saw the break up of Yugoslavia, a union of different peoples, a "multicultural" Land if you like. Compare that to the break up of the United Kingdom through devolution.

Consider the mass immigration of Ethnic Muslims into Serbia, and the carnage that followed. Does this reflect the huge explosion of Muslim immigration that we are experiencing at present.

If we cast a glance at Serbia today, we will see that it's a little smaller than it was just a few years ago, and alongside it exists a new, independant and, more importantly, Muslim state, Kosovo.

You might like to predict the first region of the UK to become our very own "Kosovo".

My moneys on Scotland. There's only 5 million of them, their benefits are good, land a plenty and the insurgents will enjoy fighting in the mountain terrain.

Andrew

W.Smith.

UKIP don't appeal to the working class and don't frighten the LIB/LAB/CON alliance.

Look at the headlines after the Henly by-election. "BNP beat Labour". Does anyone know or even care, how UKIP fared?

UKIP have some excellent policies, I'll agree, and they are doing agood job fighting our corner in the EU but have little to say about multiculturism.

People are in the mood to protest and they can do it loud and clear with the BNP.

phil

Andrew-
quote
"Phil.
I find your comparison between 1930s Germany and Britain in 2008 quite frankly, ludicrous.How you can imagine that anyone, let alone the BNP could enchant and mobilise the British people into performing such monstrous acts is beyond me."

Categorically I do not think for one moment our nation would be involved in that kind of behaviour,
but members of your own party (stormfront?)are not the sort of people I could trust, could you ?--your own leader has shifted from denying the Holocaust to accepting it WHY?
-Read lj barnes or even the buffoon arthur on this thread .-do you want to be associated with that kind of rhetoric ? I do not doubt there are many decent people who are now voting BNP from sheer frustration and sadly are aligning themselves with outright racist thugs which I do not doubt that you are not -why not put your efforts to a better cause and make a noise where it will count . I have met some who do vote with you and by their own admission are utterly fed up with having their reasonable complaints ignored and do not want to be involved with BNP ,nevertheless have voted through that frustration ,.how long would that last if our mainstream parties woke up and addressed their worries -they talk of housing lists .no go areas , loyalty to our nation,not racism and they do not hate Muslims or Jews.They will return to mainstream politics because that is where their hearts lie .Andrew you seem a committed person why not put your commitment where it would count ?

As for Serbia etc I have never commented on that sad situation .

Arthur

"phil", your absurd prattling is embarassing.

Equating the BNP with stormfront is childish and old hat, like equating them with those "wadicalised" members of the religion-of-peace-and-lurve.

As for me being a buffoon; take some good advice "phil" - stick to your credulous audience of open-mouthed gimps.
I'll just chew you up in front of them.

Mr Ady

Is Mr Barnes of the BNP, going to be aloud similar column inches in a right of reply, to Phillips, that institutional metropolitan liberal?
I suspect not

Geoff Miller

To paraphrase Phils post:-

First they came for the Jews
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for the Hindus and Buddists
and I did not speak out
because I was neither.

Then they came for the Byzantine Christians and Zorastrians and I did not speak out
because I was not a Byzantine Christian or Zorastrian.

Then they came for the Christian Spanish and I did not speak out because I was not a Spaniard.

Then they came for the Serbs, Hungarians, Romanians and Austrians and I did not speak out because I am none of those.

Then they came for ALL Europeans but I did not speak out because I wanted their votes and oil.

Then they came for me
and there was no one left
to speak out for me.

Riddle :- who could I possibly be talking about?

phil

arthur the last person on earth I would take advice from is a bufoon ,so why not go and teach your pal mr ady to spell you may be "aloud" to do that -

That is our problem here dealing with uneducated fools like you -some of the others here who I do not agree with at least can write spell and debate -so far we have never heard a word of that from you just stupid insults- I wont address you again, I and no doubt everyone including your party members have probably had enough of your nonsense .go and watch wimbledon ,its raining .

Herbert Thornton

If Phil's aim in citing Pastor Niemöller was to imply that the present BNP membership policy makes the BNP into a virtual reincarnation of Hitler's Nazis, and that is foreshadows - if the BNP are elected to government - the construction of gas chambers for the extermination of non-whites, I believe that Pastor Niemöller would have been disappointed so see his words so misused.

The Pastor would, on the other hand, have recognised that Geoff Miller's updated version of his rueful comments about the necessity to speak up fits the present day very well indeed - and recognises both the source and the seriousness of the war that is under way against our civilisation.

phil

Herbert T your writing is that of an intelligent man so I am sure you know what I am getting at.My concern is not really with the BNP it is with the normal average Brit who have been seduced by them into thinking that they are represented by a decent philosophy .I do not care what people like arthur and lee..j b thinks ,they are beyond the pale for me .

,It is Andrew,Geoff and you together with many like you that concern me -perhaps I have got you all wrong as I am assuming you just want a government that addresses your concerns about subjects that I have referred to previously ,and that frustration has driven you into the arms of BNP. If I am wrong just ignore me as it would be pointless for us to continue -I rather hope I was right in my conclusions that you do not belong in the same political sphere as arthur and his friends .to me they are the real image of the BNP.

Just a short reminder from history to answer your question ,the nazi,s original intention was to rid themselves of the Jews by sending them off to Africa-things progressed rather differently .I dont believe for one moment that our great nation would tolerate such happenings here ,but I do not want to take the chance that the wrong people got into power and then it would be too late for all of us -you and your children included, who may even marry someone whose origins were not British and white ..

phil

Herbert I should have addressed your comment on the pastor -his words ring as true now as they did then and the disappointment surely would have been that anyone seeks to change them

W. Smith

"UKIP don't appeal to the working class and don't frighten the LIB/LAB/CON alliance."

Said like a true Socialist. Making my point about the natural constituency of the BNP. So *please* let's stop calling them "right-wing".

"UKIP have some excellent policies, I'll agree, and they are doing agood job fighting our corner in the EU but have little to say about multiculturism."

Actually they have quite a lot to say about it, along with the broader problem of political correctness in general:

http://www.ukip.org/ukip/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=463&Itemid=57
http://www.ukip.org/ukip/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=186&Itemid=68

"People are in the mood to protest and they can do it loud and clear with the BNP."

...If they're brain-dead Socialists.

Andrew

OK Will.

I have offered my opinion as to why UKIP are not picking up BNP votes.

Perhaps now you could offer your opinion on the matter. Your latest post was completely bereft of constructive debate.

phil

Andrew ,you have not replied to my last post and I do consider what you say -have I perhaps persuaded you ?I do note that Caroline, mcgregor ,jack et al do not reply, there really is a great difference in the sort of people from your party who have visited here .

Andrew

Phil.

You cannot dissuade me from voting BNP. I have put a lot of thought into it and I've decided that it's the right thing to do.

Of course, if one of the big 3 parties would like to take my vote, they are only too welcome.

They would, however, require some policies with which I would agree.

1)Pull out of a federal EU. return to a common market.
2)Full stop on immigration.
3)Measures to combat Islamisation. ie; outlaw polygamy, tough restrictions on arranged marriages to persons abroad and restrictions on benefits for children.

But, they won't go there. So I won't vote for them.

phil

Andrew .thanks for the reply.I understand your point of view which of course you are entitled to -I hope one day you will feel the main parties are accommodating you -I have to say you do not sound like a number of extremists who have posted here so what I do not understand is how you equate with them in the same party .

Herbert Thornton

The Spectator seems reluctant to publish my longer reply to Phil so here is a somewhat shorter one.

Phil - Of course Pastor Niemöller's words still ring true, but I do not believe that Geoff Miller has attempted to 'change' them. Far from changing them, Geoff's version illustrates powerfully how apropos they are to the situation now.

I think that it is a great mistake to view the BNP's restricted membership policy as 'racism' in a sense anything like Hitler's racist insanity. Hitler believed that Jews were an inherently inferior race who should be exterminated. Who shares that philosophy now? Is it the BNP or is it the religious extremists who have, as part of their theology, a view of Jews very similar to that of Hitler?

I hear no goosesteps, but I do detect paranoia. When your own survival is endangered, nobody can afford the luxury of ignoring the real danger while spurning sincere allies.

phil

Herbert T -quote" think that it is a great mistake to view the BNP's restricted membership policy as 'racism'-would an analogy be he is only slightly dead ?

Herbert Thornton

Phil,

You have, I am sorry to see, misquoted me. What I wrote was that "I think that it is a great mistake to view the BNP's restricted membership policy as 'racism' in a sense anything like Hitler's racist insanity."

Yet you ignore my point that the movement now calling for Jews to be exterminated is not the BNP but extremist Islam.

As I said, I hear no goosesteps - but if you are inviting an analogy, I do see a Don Quixote tilting at windmills while ignoring a real, live ambush of bloodthirsty fanatics bearing down on him waving their scimitars.

I remain firmly of similar view to that expressed on July 7th, 2008 1:21pm by Andrew. I hope that eventually you will realise that it is the most sensible one.

phil

Herbert T I did note Andrews comments and to some extent can understand his worries ,but none of those are my problems with the BNP and you are ignoring them -Arthur and his idiots are what concern me and educated people like you and Andrew associating yourselves with them are what I do not "like" Why do you not answer this point .?

W. Smith

"OK Will.

I have offered my opinion as to why UKIP are not picking up BNP votes.

Perhaps now you could offer your opinion on the matter. Your latest post was completely bereft of constructive debate."

"UKIP are not picking up BNP votes" BECAUSE UKIP ARE RIGHT-WING AND THE BNP ARE LEFT WING! I CAN'T SAY IT ANY PLAINER! UKIP AND THE BNP ARE POLES APART --- THEY WON'T "PICK UP" BNP VOTES, AS BNP VOTERS ARE LEFT WINGERS AND DETEST THE RIGHT!

They may have a common enemy in modern Marxism, but that's all.

Herbert Thornton

Phil,

I would very much like to answer your point, but so far as I can see, it amounts to your antipathy to some unspecified attitudes of Arthur and some of his associates.

You indicate that you understand my and Andrew's concerns, but as respects Arthur and his associates, what is there of substance that they advocate that you feel outweighs my and Andrew's concerns?

If it has to do with their attitude towards Israel, my own sympathies lie entirely and firmly with Israel, but to my mind, whatever anybody feels about Israel should have very little to do with whether or not we support the BNP.

phil

Herbert Thornton -Thanks for your patience but I think we are at an impasse here -,the people that I referred to would not be welcome in any mainstream party with the views they propound ,and I think you must know that -they damage beyond repair your objectives,some which seem not unreasonable but others I find abhorrent,so we will have to agree to disagree-I do hope that people like you and Andrew will eventually find comfort away from those that will destroy you ,and return to mainstream where you views may make a difference

Frank McGill

"I do hope that people like you and Andrew will eventually find comfort away from those that will destroy you ,and return to mainstream where you views may make a difference"
How extremely patronising Melanie.
In other words waste your time, and vote, being further patronised and ignored by the very traitors who have brought you to your discontentment.

Herbert Thornton

Phil,

I incline to agree that we have reached an impasse. However, I am still curious to know precisely who and what you have in mind when you write "the people I referred to would not be welcome in any mainstream party with views they propound". I have to guess that you are referring specifically to Arthur and Mr. Barnes, but I am much more in the dark when you refer to the "views they propound".

I have enjoyed our discussion, but it would be enlightening if we can tie up these loose ends.

Andrew

Nice one Frank.

Did you notice, also, that W. Smith has replied to me in capital letters.

Do you think he's shouting at me?

LOL.

phil

Frank McGill -your post defines what I despise most about some members of your party so I will not patronise you .I suggested that the others campaign strongly within the mainstream where their vote may help to change some things that they obviously disagree with-they wrote eloquently and I debated with them ,perhaps even influenced some change ? you do not want to think do you ?just insult and continue on your right wing agenda -so enjoy ,you will remain a sad minority and achieve nothing but division .

phil

HERBERT you willjust have to read mr barne s as for arthur ,he is just an idiot ,but you have many like him in the party and the general public see you as one item .
Andrew you did surprise me with your applause for mr mcgill-not like you .

Frank McGill

Andrew - Yes I did notice that.
Still, other than the BBC, who takes any notice of UKIP the establishment puffball.
Did you notice how Melanie no longer denies her true identity?
As for your comments Melanie. Division is what this country already has in abundance, none of it brought about by the BNP but by mass immigration. It is not the BNP that is divisive, it is those who opened the doors to all and sundry.
I fail to see how pointing out a human failing in your writing is an insult. Perhaps you need to look within yourself - or is that condescending?
Campaigning strongly within the so called mainstream eh? So what are you suggesting? People who do not want Britain in the European Union, people who feel multiculturalism has been a disaster for this country and for them personally, people who know they are lied to and deceived on a daily basis by the Lib/Lab/Con axis should join them and try to change them from within? And just how long before those people are hounded out and accused of infiltration? No. I would rather be honest and stand my ground with other likeminded people campaigning against this treason - not join it.

phil

Frank McGill by you calling me Melanie are you attempting humour or do you seriously think she is using my name ? ,if you do then I must disabuse you -I haven't called you arthur have I ,or are you him in disguise ?

your quote"No. I would rather be honest and stand my ground with other likeminded people campaigning against this treason - not join it." I have no objection to those who campaign for reasonable objectives so long as they are not racist,but by calling those that do not agree with you as traitors is just disgusting and seems to again define your view of democracy ,which is where we came in.You well know your vote will not count and yet you continue sniping from the shadows instead of trying harder to change the mainstream .

Andrew

Phil

you are a prime example of why the likes of me will absolutely not vote for the LIB/LAB/CON alliance.

You simply will not listen. You imagine BNP voters to be lost souls with no firm political beliefs. You imagine that you can drape a sympathetic arm around our shoulders and gently persuade us to do "the right thing". You seem to regard us as confused or unintelligent.

Take a look at public opinion regarding the introduction of Sharia law in this country, I'm sure you'll agree that the vast majority are deeply concerned about this. But where is the opposition to it from the main parties? Immigration, Islamisation and the EU are the issues I'm most agrieved about, sadly they are the very issues that the LIB/LAB/CON alliance appear most reticent about. There is not a cigarrette paper between the policies of the big 3.

Your comment that our votes will not make a difference is wrong. We have one man, one vote and my vote is equal to yours.

Andrew

Phil

You are a prime example of why the likes of me will absolutely not vote for the LIB/LAB/CON alliance.

You simply will not listen. You imagine BNP voters to be lost souls with no firm political beliefs. You imagine that you can drape a sympathetic arm around our shoulders and gently persuade us to do "the right thing". You seem to regard us as confused or unintelligent.

Take a look at public opinion regarding the introduction of Sharia law in this country, I'm sure you'll agree that the vast majority are deeply concerned about this. But where is the opposition to it from the main parties? Immigration, Islamisation and the EU are the issues I'm most agrieved about, sadly they are the very issues that the LIB/LAB/CON alliance appear most reticent about. There is not a cigarrette paper between the policies of the big 3.

Your comment that our votes will not make a difference is wrong. We have one man, one vote and my vote is equal to yours.

If things remain the same, I have no doubt that some day soon we will have BNP members of parliament. There is a sea change in British politics. The Tories are riding high in the opinion polls at present but I don't see this as an endorsement of Tory policy, rather a rejection of Labours. Once the dust has settled, people will start to look a bit more closely at the Tories. In time the Tories will be rejected too.

If the main 3 parties want my vote, they need to win it. I am not prepared to modify my opinions and beliefs to suit them.

Andrew

Here is the remainder of my post above, which for some reason has failed to appear.

If things remain the same, I have no doubt that some day soon we will have BNP members of parliament. There is a sea change in British politics. The Tories are riding high in the opinion polls at present but I don't see this as an endorsement of Tory policy, rather a rejection of Labours. Once the dust has settled, people will start to look a bit more closely at the Tories. In time the Tories will be rejected too.

If the main 3 parties want my vote, they need to win it. I am not prepared to modify my opinions and beliefs to suit them.

Andrew

Sorry for messing up the posts, guys.

phil

Andrew .we will soon be known as the phil and Andrew show ! your quote"You are a prime example of why the likes of me will absolutely not vote for the LIB/LAB/CON alliance" you also state that I think you are unintelligent ,now you only have to read my posts to know that is not true -what I have consistently said is that you will get nowhere with the likes of arthur on board ,would you have him round to dinner or take him to your pub ?

.I have also said time and again that you need to bring influence to bear on the mainstream where it will count,many people have sympathy for some of your concerns such as uncontrolled immigration ,sharia law ,EU influence etc -yes its hard to push mainstream but would be very rewarding if accomplished .whereas you are castigated by most of the public not because of the above worries but because you associate with the arthurs of this world it surely must be obvious that you are impeded by the worst excesses of your membership and therefore do not get your message over .

I have never debated with a member of the BNP before and possibly never will again but both you and Herbert have been civil and eloquent with me and Anglicus ,s message touched me , so I hope I have reciprocated ,but my message must remain come and join us we have much to do .

By now this is probably our own private message board ,fun isn't it ?

Herbert Thornton

Phil,

We really do seem to have reached an impasse, but I cannot help but feel that personal feelings between you as an individual on the one hand and Arthur and Mr. Barnes as individuals on the other are clouding the bigger issues represented by the mainstream parties and the BNP.

In particular, your phrase "views they propound" really does leave me in the dark.
Leaving aside those personal difficulties, if I can call them that, what specific policies of the BNP bother you the most?

phil

Herbert T "the personal difficulties "cannot be ignored because they are the first on the list when people think of the BNP, " arthur and lee "and their friends top that list for what the general public dislike the most about your party (just look at what they have written)-the public do not even get to policies they just see bullies and hatred being dispensed in large amounts by so many of your supporters and that obliterates any sound discussion of those policies -I cannot say I disagree with all you have to say ,some makes a little sense but when it comes to whites only and racism you are out of bounds ,and I will have no part of it . I also do not want to see a party full of convicted people settling my way of life.
I continue to say if you want to bring your influence to bear, rid yourself of the image your party have accrued over many years or join another and influence them -hope that is enough for you .

Herbert Thornton

Since my question to Phil has not been answered, may I repeat it? -

"....what specific policies of the BNP bother you the most?"

phil

Herbert T I said it in the previous post
"when it comes to whites only and racism you are out of bounds ,and I will have no part of it ."

Herbert Thornton

Phil - Thanks for clarifying - I have to read that as meaning that the essential basis for your antipathy to the BNP is their white membership only policy.

My own attitude to that is that the policy falls a long way short of malevolence. It recognises for example that it is entirely fitting for other groups to form their own associations.

Since it is utterly hopeless to imagine that the Tories can ever be influenced towards the only policies that can rescue Britain, the comparatively harmless membership policy seems to me to be a very small price to pay and need be no obstacle at all to supporting the BNP.

I think we should bear in mind the old adage about cutting off one's nose to spite one's face. Rejecting the BNP amounts, I believe, to doing just that.

Gary from Glasgow

It has been interesting reading the comments on this page. Particularly Phil´s, as he becomes ever more desperate to stigmatise the party. Interestingly he states the following:

"I am sure you would have voted for Churchill during the war"

Interesting, because Churchill was a vociferous opponent of mass-immigration and suggested "Keep England white" as an election slogan, according to the MacMillan Diaries.

I too vote for the BNP when given the opportunity.

Andrew

Churchill on Islam;

How dreadful are the curses which Mohammedanism lays on its votaries! Besides the fanatical frenzy, which is as dangerous in a man as hydrophobia in a dog, there is this fearful fatalistic apathy. The effects are apparent in many countries. Improvident habits, slovenly systems of agriculture, sluggish methods of commerce, and insecurity of property exist wherever the followers of the Prophet rule or live.…A degraded sensualism deprives this life of its grace and refinement; the next of its dignity and sanctity. The fact that in Mohammedan law every woman must belong to some man as his absolute property, either as a child, a wife, or a concubine, must delay the final extinction of slavery until the faith of Islam has ceased to be a great power among men.
Individual Moslems may show splendid qualities ... but the influence of the religion paralyses the social development of those who follow it. No stronger retrograde force exists in the world. Far from being moribund, Mohammedanism is a militant and proselytizing faith. It has already spread throughout Central Africa, raising fearless warriors at every step; and were it not that Christianity is sheltered in the strong arms of science, the science against which it had vainly struggled, the civilisation of modern Europe might fall, as fell the civilisation of ancient Rome. [The River War, first edition, Vol. II, pp. 248-50.]