This Britain

Bill M

Yuk.

dave

is this a joke?

Bill M

...not to mention that it may be the teachers who go "Yuk" considering the youngsters propensity for producing malodorous fumes which will be intensified by some of the more spicy foreign fare. Bangers and mash, please.

Spencer de Vere

Does this attitude extend to child-care workers saying "yuk" when confronted with the contents of an ethnic child's nappy ?

Thinkster

OMG! I had fired off an email to my contacts with a link to the DT article and thought I would check if Mel had picked up on it, she has - good stuff. I wonder if anything like £12m is being spent to ensure far more worrying and genuine words of hate are being spewed towards one or more other minorities? Either way, Gordon B really does want every aspect of our lives monitored - from birth to Soylent Green. I ask fellow commentators: Are you now seriously worried enough about 'This Britain' that you would like to do something about it that goes beyond dropping a line to your local MP?

Joe Camel

Eat up your nice sheep's eyes, Kirsty dear

Alcuin

Would brown people be reported for saying "yuk" to fish pie and stewed cabbage?

Alex Bensky

Well, if they turn up their noses at gefilte fish...oh, I forgot, hating Jews isn't a crime in the UK.

Anthony (Los Angeles)

When do they open the reeducation preschools?

Herbert Thornton

Oh dear. The result of this news reaching Canada will probably be that some Human Rights Commission enforcer will be horrified to notice that a customer in an 'ethnic' restaurant has ordered a traditional desert mutton dish, but has failed to eat the sheeps' eyes.

This will be reported to one of our Human Rights Tribunals.

The Tribunal will then declare that the failure to eat the sheeps' eyes was racially motivated discrimination, and will order the customer to pay several thousands of dollars to everyone who has been offended by it.

zoltix

And muslims who don't want pork or ham or bacon?

zoltix

Hate Brussel sprouts?

Europhobe!

eli

Goodbye Britain. Would the last one out please turn off the light.

Ron the Pom

Quite funny reading Mels blogs.
In her previous one you are all running around like headless chooks,as they say here in Oz,about Jews and muslims while the government is busily brain washing your kids while you all sit idly by.
Time to wake up and start protesting.Do what the muslims do and then maybe your political amsters may start listening to you for a change.

Mr. Singh

ur country is messed up. The English should dump the Welsh and Scots and Irish and go their own way, maybe then they'll be able to preserve their ethnicity in the face of such idiocy instead of having to submerge their nation into some multi-culti soup.

Rob

Joking apart, the sad thing is that people are being paid good salaries, and probably pensions.. to come up with this sort of crap. More black pudding anyone...?

Dave

Hmmm, no link to the report but the only actual quote in the Telegraph says;
"The guide goes on to warn that children might also "react negatively to a culinary tradition other than their own by saying 'yuk'"
So yes, that would include saying "yuk" when presented with "Fish pie and stewed cabbage" and indeed "gefilte fish"
I can't see any actual quotes about "spicy food" anywhere. I wonder where that came from?
There's a great and glorious tradition of English food being spicy which commentators and indeed the Telegraph seem to be unaware of.

Georgina

This is where the client state, the only thing booming in the economic slump, leads: busybodys finding things to do.

It would be comic were it not so sinister.

Hereford

This is unbelievable! Surely Melanie, your normal journalistic incisiveness has taken a leave of absence. If this is true then 1984 has arrived, albeit 24 years late.

marwan

How is it that a nation which almost bankrupts itself seeing off the fascists of the third reich can succumb so easily to the left wing fascists of the pc brigade and their islamist allies. Answer : because this country has been hollowed out by immigration and socialism.

jeremyhavardi.com

Well we have to be careful to weed out all the 1 and 2 year old race haters, no? I suggest they are all given nursery ASBOs in 'toddler courts' and then re-educated appropriately. They also need yearly check ups from their Stalinist supervisors to make sure they are not turning up their noses at any more ethnic dishes. Beyond perverse.

derek vinyard

marwan
July 8th, 2008 9:47am
How is it that a nation which almost bankrupts itself seeing off the fascists of the third reich can succumb so easily to the left wing fascists of the pc brigade and their islamist allies. Answer : because this country has been hollowed out by immigration and socialism.

I was wondering when Islam would enter the debate!!!

oh dear your right a country that has given us Oxford and Cambridge and some of the greatest scholars, can produce Maid Mel and merry gang of followers....England is going down the pan thanks to you people on this blog!

Barry Larking

How do these people get employment? I will not eat seafood. Does this make me an Orthodox Jew? Will I be reported?

Miranda Rose Smith

There is nothing racist about being disliking an unfamiliar foreign food. Its human nature. (Incidentally, when African Blacks were served an unfamiliar foreign food-milk-many of them turned out to be lactose-intolerant and became seriously ill.) I wish I could sentence all the demented government agents who dreamed this up-and any teacher politically-correct enough to inform on a child-to thirty days solitary confinement, on a diet not of bread and water, but of schav and blood sausage. We'll see how quickly they say "YECH!!"

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Alcuin: Good point.

logdon

I was going to comment but then thought what's the point! Yesterday I pasted a perfectly pertinent (and well informed) response to The Jews of Europe to find zilch on the page. Maybe you prefer the tangential infighting which goes on between a few regulars but that 's hardly the purpose. Why not post moderate as many others including the Guardian seem to do. For all the good work Melanie does in this column which busts the stifling PC of organisations like the BBC it is ruined by overzealous people who do not seem able to differentiate between truth and bigotry.

anglicus

This even reached America, good post by Debbie Schlussel.

http://www.debbieschlussel.com/

Gavin

Melanie,
What do you feel when you read comments like those of Bill M, Spencer de Vere and Joe Camel? Your blog does not in itself voice such sentiments like these, but you are hosting a forum which engenders such repugnant views. I would have thought that an element of self-doubt, and even shame, might creep in. Perhaps you would like to address this question in your next posting?

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Logdon: Maybe there was something wrong with your computer and the response didn't go through. I've posted things on this page and had them not appear.

anglicus

Got something against Debbie Schlussel, Mel?

PeterA

"Eat your dinner or I'll make sure your mum and dad go to prison and then you will be all alone in the world"

Dr Michael Grave

How has Britain reached such a nadir?

I nominate the disgusting BBC.

Mike, Brighton

My 5-year old refuses to eat Indian takeaway despite my best efforts. He's clearly a racist and should be taken for re-indoctrination at one of NuLabs death camps of tolerance

Frank Pulley

Gavin

Because it is an open forum and even prats like you are given space to opine and criticise.

Verity

Gavin, from his perch, writes: "hosting a forum which engenders such repugnant views".

Oooh, errr! I believe it's The Speccie that's hosting the site, St Gavin. Melanie is the blogger. Not the moderator.

But surely to God, now that they know of your existence, the moderators will beg you to come on board to censor the free opinions of others? As opinons around here tend to be rather robust, you will be as happy as a fox in a hen house!

Where did you take your degree in Sanctimoniousness and Judgementalism, by the way?

Frank Pulley

Do not miss Melanie's seminal article in the Daily Mail this week to mark the third anniversary of 7/7. (Available on this sidebar under the caption Sleepwalking into Islamism).

Its clarity is brilliant and shines like a searchlight over the seething mass of bovine excrement that has emanated from The A of C, the LCJ, and other deluded commentators who think that we should give ground to the inexorable spread of Islamism in all its dangerous and devious forms and fronts by sucking up to 'moderate Muslims'. Though we have seen much of the content before in various pieces on her previous blog and this one, this latest synthesis should be utterly devastating for anyone interested in the future of our country. I hope that its appearance in the Daily Mail, wherein much of her Middle East and Islamist exposure has been strangely absent - presumably through editorial stricture - is heartening; particularly as an antidote to the stuff published by another DM columnist, Oborne the Opportunist, last weekend.

I shall now plough through the Mail on Line's arcane website to discover whether there is a commentary box available; previous attempts have often proved impossible, as when one presses 'columinists' on the DM website it usually throws up all the frippery that the DM is renowned for, but not the hard stuff. This time I shall persevere, as the article deserves appropriate acknowledgement. I suggest that MP bloggers do the same to let Paul Dacre know that we need more of the same in the DM and less of the Oborne squit. While appreciating that a tabloid has to be somewhat eclectic to pull the punters, reining in Melanie's ME coverage, if that is what is happening, is diabolical and I hope this watershed is a sign of better things to come.

Gavin

So - what do you two think of the posts I mentioned? Or anyone else like to comment on them?

My point, anyway, is for Melanie - I'm asking her where the line is drawn between sparking robust, open discussion, and rabble-rousing.

F. and U. Adenufyet

Glad you didn't comment and let this piece speak for itself. I'm lost for words too.

Keith

Will the parents of the 'racists' be prosecuted?

Robin

Gavin,

Frank Pulley put you in the right box.

As one of our regulars rightly said a couple of weeks ago "I love this blog". What we love about it is (a) the incisive and pertinent comments by Melanie and (b) the vigorous discussion that comes from most posters.

When people post clear (and frequently mis-spelt) nonsense, we go with that simply because it is the nature of this forum.

Where a post is either worthy of comment or deserves an acid rebuke, then one of us will comment. Where a poster asks "what did you think of what x said", most of us will keep our counsel.

Monty

Well I think the most sinister, and ultimately revealing part of that article is the following:
-------
Nurseries are encouraged to report as many incidents as possible to their local council. The guide added: "Some people think that if a large number of racist incidents are reported, this will reflect badly on the institution. In fact, the opposite is the case."
----------

I never came across such a brazen incitement to jump onto the witch-hunting bandwagon. Brownie points for denouncing children to the race-hustling securitate. The more, the merrier. In fact, if you haven't seen any racism in your playgroup, perhaps you had better just find dome, sharpish. An absence of raccism reports might reflect badly on your institution......

stanley Jerusalem

Spike Milligan and The Pythons could not have dreamed up this scenario.
Talk about the inmates having the keys to the asylum!
Oh sorry; HMG has closed them all down and sent them out "into the community" from where, presumably this story originates.

Ben Disraeli

My sister is a fussy eater. I look forward to letting her know that she's a basically a neo-Nazi.

paul

Verity here here and well said! as for Gavin,

My you are sensetive, perhaps you need compensation for hurt feelings dear?

Geoff Miller

I look forward to Muslim and Jewish toddlers being fed pork and punished/"reported" if they do not eat it.

I look forward to Hindus being fed meat and punished/"reported" if they do not eat it.

Will I be waiting long?

You bet I will.

Only white, christian, indiginous toddlers will be subjected to this Orwellian indignity - all other races and religions will get a pass.

If any child of mine were to be forced to eat food barbarically slaughtered in some medieval religious cult practice I would sue - or worse!

If we are to really protect our kids and fit them for living in a multi-culti society we should teach them about Islam but as the vile and dangerous cult that it is!

Familiar Clown

Of course, it's all right for Asian kids, they never get served tripe or haggis.

FatBigot

I bet a pint to a pork scratching that poor old Harriet will find a way to adopt this fine new policy initiative. It is, after all, the epitome of everything she stands for.

Trek

You couldn't make it up!

Norm

A full english breakfast with 2 rounds of black pudding, lovely. Whatever happened to white pudding my old mum used to get from the butchers down Felling high street.

Joe Camel

Many years ago, it must have been in the early nineties, The Guardian ran an entertaining article by an English teacher who had been posted by the British Council to a remote provincial city in China, I forget which, where milk and dairy farming were completely unknown. As a result, his students kept asking him to explain what cheese was, since it cropped up so often in their textbooks, until one Christmas the teacher arranged for friends in the UK to send him a package of assorted cheeses for a party at which his students might finally have the mystery solved for them.

To cut a long story short, a few students politely pretended to enjoy it and even forced themselves to swallow a morsel or two, while the majority simply couldn’t stand it. The teacher was left with a great deal of cheese on his hands, more than he could possibly eat himself, so he decided to feed it to the mice he had spotted around his house from time to time. The mice didn’t touch it, either.

So, in the present context, who is the racist? The teacher, the students, or the mice?

BJ

I think it would have been a good idea to actually read this book before commenting on it. Neither Melanie Phillips or any of the contributors to this thread has actually done so it seems. Did the Telegraph hack read it? Doubtful.
On the National Childrens Bureau website the author responds to the press criticism. Pointing out that their publications are paid for from sales, so you're not paying for this out of public funds, as the Telegraph slyly suggests. There is also a helpful link to the contents page of this particular publication. It actually looks fairly anodyne stuff and indeed is favourably reviewed by a number of other academics.
The best advice is if you can't be bothered to check the facts - write a blog on something you know about

jdc

OK I went to the National Children's Bureau web site and read the author's comments. Here is what she says:

"I wrote Young Children and Racial Justice because I am increasingly aware that there are people who do not take issues of racial equality sufficiently seriously. From national to local government and from trainers to practitioners, there is a significant gap between policies and recognition of how racism distorts the lives of many children and their families. Despite improvements in resources, training, individual practice and statutory requirements, racism still remains.

I know nearly everyone in the sector genuinely cares about children, but many institutional practices and procedures perpetuate racial barriers. In the absence of a strategy, addressing them remains ad hoc and depends on the commitment of individuals. I believe the main reason for these barriers is a lack of understanding."

Could anything more precisely illustrate the problem? Because the author CARES so deeply about racism, her solutions must automatically be deemed appropriate. If you don't like her solutions, you must by definition not CARE about racism.

This approach -- so rampant in the PC-dominated world -- enables every lunatic policy to be justified by the oh-so-sincere motivation of the advocate.

And, yes, like some others here, I am worried about this making its way to Canada, where I live. One more cause for our insane Human Rights Commissions.

This has led to a situation where important early years anti-racist practice is misunderstood by those responsible for implementing it. Without an understanding of racism, no one can put racial equality into practice. Without it, the very word often engenders apprehension, discomfort, guilt, and fear of using the apparently “wrong” term or being called a racist.

In my book I have tried to unpack racism and expose it for the evil that it is. Talking about it openly and honestly within an ethos of no-blame opens up ways to understand it better. We all have different backgrounds and experiences but together we can get rid of this blight on the lives of both black and white young children and on early years services and settings.

Nick Kaplan

BJ; Perhaps you should read a blog or article before ridiculing its author for ignorance or deception. Melanie and the original telegraph article did not say that this particular (and particularly stupid) piece of research had been funded by the tax payer, which you’re post implies they are saying. Instead the article clearly states that it is “The National Children's Bureau, which receives £12 million a year” rather than any particular piece of research being funded by the government. Therefore your argument that “you're not paying for this out of public funds, as the Telegraph slyly suggests” is irrelevant, spurious, misleading and ignorant (ironically the very same qualities you wrongly attribute to the Telegraph). The best advice; if you can’t be bothered to actually read the content of a blog don’t comment on it and make inaccurate and misleading allegations about its authors.

The Happy Carbon Footprint

Monty - Uh-huh. I caught that too. " ... as many as possible ...". I'd like to say I was shocked, but I wasn't. They need more "funding" (i.e. more money from people who do the kind of work that is required to keep a capitalistic society afloat) poured into their parasitic coffers. They constantly have to invent new offences. The gravy train passengers employed by the education establishment have now "discovered" that four year old children need to be introduced to sex lessons in playschool. Now tell me. What kind of person would relish such a "job"?

Just askin' is all ...

Verity

BJ hectors; "I think it would have been a good idea to actually read this book before commenting on it."

Darling, life is too short to even read the minutes of a socialist town hall meeting, never mind a whole book written by funding-hungry socialists.

"...and indeed is favourably reviewed by a number of other academics."

I knew I'd made the right decision!

"The best advice is if you can't be bothered to check the facts - write a blog on something you know about."

And who awards winning points for this "best advice", BJ? And who asked for it?

Gavin

Still no answer!

David Crawford

What a crazy story. Just about as crazy as this one:

"Plans to clear undergrowth from gay sex spot branded discriminatory"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/2263277/Plans-to-clear-undergrowth-from-gay-sex-spot-branded-discriminatory.html

Trimming the hedges will now get you reported as a homophobe I guess.

Verity

"I wrote Young Children and Racial Justice because I am increasingly aware that there are people who do not take issues of racial equality sufficiently seriously."

By God, where do you find them? The entire Gramscian left is on your side!

And also who is to say what is "sufficiently seriously" in a society that has a dominant culture, earned by thousands of years of owning the territory?

Perhaps the mighty majority might decide on "sufficiently seriously", rather than,say, you?

Bill M

Gavin,

"What do you feel when you read comments like those of Bill M, Spencer de Vere and Joe Camel? Your blog does not in itself voice such sentiments like these, but you are hosting a forum which engenders such repugnant views."

I think you meant to say "pungent" views.

Bill M

Gavin

No Bill M, I meant racism wrapped up in a feeble joke.

The 'robust debate' line is a way of dodging my question, which is addressed to Melanie Philips. Can I ask it again: where is the line to be drawn between encouraging open debate and rabble-rousing?

Dave

@Geoff Miller: It's ok, plenty of Hindus do eat meat. Maybe you should get to know some?

@Gavin: I think you have a point. There's some quite nasty stuff slipping through here. The good old DT does appear to suggest this study is funded with taxpayer cash for example.
But where did this obsession with "spicy" food come from? I wonder if the word actually appears in this report?
Frankly this might mark the moment when Mel dragged The Spectator down to the blustering reporting "standards" of Fox News.
Mel Phillips. First with the Truthiness.

stanley Jerusalem

Geoff Miller said "If any child of mine were to be forced to eat food barbarically slaughtered in some medieval religious cult practice I would sue - or worse!"
You aren't listening Geoff. You are just rearranging your prejudices.

Bill M

Gavin,

Spicy food is racist?

I think you may need to change your own nappy. (Credit: Spencer de Vere).

Augustus

It is widely accepted and well-known that many whites are not partial to a lot of traditional African and Asian foods.

So if many adults feel that way, it is quite understandable that white children would turn their noses up at strange and often strongly flavoured foods.

Like the Prince of Wales, I think I would also draw the line at some extreme cuisine. Maggots, for example. But I would eat them to survive.

Geoff Miller

Dave, I do have Hindu friends which is why I feel qualified to make the comment. If you do, which I doubt, I suggest you dont know them well enough - perhaps they are just ethnic "token" friends that make you feel a warm multicultural glow.

They are expected to be vegetarian. Those that eat meat (never beef) do so, in the opinion of MOST Hindus, in contravention of their religious requirements - just like some muslims drink alchohol and some Jews (again I refer to a friend) eat pork.

Before you spit out your preconceptions about people you disgree with you should at least get your facts straight (though I guess you wouldnt then be able to retain your preconceptions and then be a very unhappy little marxist).

Check this out and learn something for once in your life. http://www.ethnicityonline.net/hindu_diet.htm

Oh, and Stanley - what are you going on about? It is entirely permissible to refuse to be FORCE FED food that contravenes your religious or cultural norms, your preference, or that is prepared in a way that offends ones beliefs about animal welfare.

Sort yourself out.

I refuse to tolerate living in a Police State and will never allow any child/grandchild of mine to be subjected to such marxist/multiculturalist brainwashing and bullying.

robbit

Gavin,

How pathetic.

So where do you suggest the lines between debate and rable rousing be drawn? Where the parlour-pink-leftie brigade supported by their PC thought- police and enforcers say they should be drawn? Wnere the mealy-mouthed BBC - aka AL Grauniad of the airwaves - says they should be drawn? Where anything might offend the hypersensitive feelings of some paternalistic "caring" do-gooder, bent on a rent-seeking personal career as a self-appointed spokesperson for some fashionable category of victimhood says they should be drawn? Where?

Get a life.

I left apartheid South Africa in 1975 - at the hight of the power of the racist regime. I have seen real racism at work. I know it and can smell it a mile off. BUT the fatuous self-serving pieties of the rent-seeking lefties who are forever accusing everyone else of racism and the "repugnant views" that you refer to are nothing but an insult to all those who have been at the receiving end of real racism.

Gavin

If you read my posts Robbit, you'll see that I'm not talking aboiut legal restriction but rather about journalistic and personal responsibilities.

John

It advises nursery teachers to be on the alert for childish abuse such as: "blackie", "Pakis", "those people" or "they smell".

I wonder why it fails to mention whitey, honkey, cracker etc. Of course, only whites are racist...

Bill M

Gavin,

Still no answer!

Gavin

Quite so Bill. Ah well - off to have my life now. Have fun all.

Sergey

What PC zealots are attempting is complete mind control over population, no less. This is not only authoritarian, but outright totalitarian. I had been living for several decades in a society where such attempts were a government policy - in Russia, and know it when I see it. Good news are that such goals are utopian and could not be achieved, no matter what amount of repression is applied. The bad news is that such policy always leads to destruction of state or party which attempts it, sometimes with complete disintegration og civil order and all dire consequences of it. Return to sanity is inevitable, but it is a big question if political class would survive it or will be wiped out by a tide of popular resentment, as happened to Soviet Communists. I do not exlude that the way to normalcy includes populist revolt, may be, with some violent excesses like pogroms of visible minorities of gays or muslims or fascist-like dictatorship. It still better than 1984-like world, to which Gramshians lead Europe.

stanley Jerusalem

OK Geoff, why don't we deal with the obnoxious little dig you included in your original post but somehow managed to omit from your riposte.
Let me remind you. It included the phrase"food barbarically slaughtered in some medieval religious cult practice"
Bring yourself up to date with the most recent articles in scientific journals dealing with this matter and described as by far and away the most humane and painless method of sending a living creature to its death.
Or were you reading the latest FAWC report to HMG trying to outlaw Shechita - unsuccessfully again.Their employment of such expressions as:- "giving the benefit of the doubt" to mammals in the matter of assessment of suffering during the process. This ascribes a degree of human compassion [ which makes us feel cosy] to the slaughter of otherwise non-sentient beasts for the process of benefitting from their carcases [food,clothing etc.]
They fail in their efforts and turn their attentions to poultry. Manifestly less sentient creatures than mammals [ but hey! Let's give them the benefit of the doubt too! More warm cosy feelings].
PETA even tell us fish have feelings so "Let's give them the benefit....."
The common denominator in all of these matters is that humankind are depriving living creatures of life in order to directly benefit from their carcasses.
The degree to which we ensure that they experience the least amount of discomfort before their demise is encapsulated in the Jewish Way as delineated in the Torah. The pragmatism of the matter is food not sport or psychopathic entertainment.
To extend the "sentient being" label to birds and even to fish is to extend an altered fallacy to progressively less intelligent creatures.
It is a matter of absolutes to preach abstinence from meat or fish, not a subject for governmental advice and action.
The techniques of depriving creatures of life are well-known and technically investigated and recognised for what they are, viz. more or less humane methods of despatch.
This has already been dealt with in the matter of mammals. The extension of the philosophies to lesser creatures is indeed a matter of philosophy and not proportionally applicable since the creatures themselves have more primitive physiologies and metabolisms and consequently exhibit "signs of life" after slaughter inconsistent with those of mammals.
Simply put, chickens do "run around" after their heads are cut off. Worms continue to wriggle long after they are cut in half etc. etc.
The only common denominator for the "animal lover" is that they are moving so they must be alive and they must consequently be suffering.
This has nothing whatever to do with suffering - even the word need urgent analysis and re-evaluation because it suggests a human experience both physical and sentient and yet is employed to imply pain alone [ perhaps others might consider worry too!]

Dave

@Geoff! Nothing token about my Hindu boyfriend x

@Augustus: "It is widely accepted and well-known that many whites are not partial to a lot of traditional African and Asian foods."

Really? Is that why Britain's national dish isn't fish and chips or roast beef... but chicken tikka?

Verity

Gavin, a thought fascist and a pill, writes: "Can I ask it again: where is the line to be drawn between encouraging open debate and rabble-rousing?"

What's wrong with rabble rousing? That's how revolutions get started and over-mighty regimes get torn down.

What's not to like?

Verity

Dave 6:59: "Is that why Britain's national dish is chicken tikka?"

But it's not! Just because sleazy Jack Straw made this off-the-cuff comment at some multi-culti do does not make it true. Indeed, anything Jack Straw says can safely be taken with a pinch of cumin.

Ann

"the slaughter of otherwise non-sentient beasts"

Stan thinks a cow is 'non-sentient'. This tells us all we need to know about him.

Ann

"Is that why Britain's national dish isn't fish and chips or roast beef... but chicken tikka?"

Here we have someone who believes every word spouted by some seventh-rate student Marxist who was promoted way, way, way beyond his talents to a government post. Oh, dear.

Geoff Miller

So Dave - you have a boyfriend. I guess his Hindu family are so pleased.

No comment about the diet though. Just admit you are wrong and learn from it.

Animal welfare? Lots of reports from Muslim groups about the efficacy of halal slaughter?

Well they would, wouldnt they!

Well I worked for Birmingham Council for years and saw juat what goes on in those abbatoirs. Vile.

Get out and look. There is a world beyond your laptop.

Until then....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1_BOAF7qvk&feature=PlayList&p=2C9A174C5EB3632B&index=4

Higher animals are sentient and feel emotions, fear and pain even though they are not as self aware as humans. Anyone who works around animals knows that. We are just animals you know. What makes us so unique in all of creation? I suppose cruelty is a uniquely human trait - as shown on the clip.

To anyone else reading this look at the youTube link - but not if you are squeamish or you've just eaten!

Never mind, truth won't sink into your head Dave, you obviously enjoy argument for its own sake, but at least I had the "pleasure" of discovering just how some people think.

Sad.

Oliver

Gavin: Anyone who has been around blogs for a while knows that to try and make the blogger responsible for the sentiments of the commenters is naive at best and cheap at worst.

Indeed, if it were the case that bloggers are responsible for commenters' views, then the Guardian would be condoning murder, global war/jihad and mass breakdown. For on its blogsite Comment Is Free, I have witnessed death threats, libels and fascist sympathies expressed from all corners of opinion - and the paper clearly ties itself in knots regarding moderator policy.

Even if MP were the moderator, which I understand she is not, one could hardly make her responsible for the opinions of commenters.

Get with the interweb, Gav! It's a new medium! 'Letters to the editor' it aint!

Regarding the topic: I await and hope that the Conservatives will cut back the excessive public sector which rewards such idiocy - but recall that such idiocy was a feature of life in the Thatcher era...

I propose that in 100 years time, historians will look back and gasp at such stuff.

Dave

@Ann & Verity: M&S (pre credit crunch!) used to sell 18tonnes of Chicken Tikka Masala every week. I'm afraid that easily out paces the amount of beef and fish 'n' chips they sell.
Personally I think it's a travesty of Indian Cuisine, but you can't deny it's popularity (well apparently you two can!). It really is ridiculous to say that white Brits haven't taken "Indian" food to their hearts.
We love spicy stuff!
(I can't remember, do you both live overseas or is it just one of you? Perhaps that's why you are out of touch?)

stanley Jerusalem

Ann - perhaps we should ask the cow its opinion too, after all...

robbit

Gavin,

I am perfectly well aware that you are not talking about legal restriction but rather about journalistic and personal responsibilities...

The question is: is this to become self-censorship to conform to the mind numbing banalities of the PC brigade and its "speech codes" (a-la US and increasingly UK campuses)? Must we impose upon ouselves the norms of "sensitive" bien-pensant bleeding-hearts who are forever claiming the moral high-ground and take offense at anything? The sort of people who make a career of perpetually trying to sniff out "racism" or "institutional racism" or "incipient racism" in everything from employment statistics to school results to Enid Blyton's "Noddy" books, and now, to an toddler's culinary likes and dislikes?!

Ann

Stan, that is a pathetic argument. Just because an animal can't speak human language, doesn't mean it is non-sentient.
Let me ask you this: if you saw a man beating his dog with a big stick, would you walk by?
If not, why not?
If yes, then I do not wish to have any more truck with you.

Ann

I live in the UK and am very much in touch, thanks for asking.
The number of TV meals sold is not that relevant. Not everyone eats junk food.
Chicken tikka masala is not even Indian. It's a British invention.

Dave

Ann: That's why I said it was a travesty of Indian Cuisine.

Verity

Dave 10:57 - You write: M&S "used to sell 18tonnes of Chicken Tikka Masala every week. I'm afraid that easily out paces the amount of beef and fish 'n' chips they sell."

And? That is relevant how? M&S is a one segment of the entire, vast food panorama that includes take-aways, cafes and restaurants, plus people who buy ingredients to cook their own, plus those who pick up microwavable.

Marxist/Gramscian Jack Straw was ingratiating himself with voters (whether legal or not) from the sub-Continent. He doesn't bloody know what the national dish, or dishes, of England are! Don't be ridiculous. He's a sly, manipulative politician. Looks as though he succeeded with you!

Dave: "Personally I think it's a travesty of Indian Cuisine, but you can't deny it's popularity (well apparently you two can!)."

Yes, very suave, I'm sure, but see, Dave, here is where the importance of reading comprehension comes in. Neither Ann nor I denied that Chicken Tikka or whatever is very popular in Britain, as is all Indian food. What Ann and I both pointed out is, it is not our "national dish". That was Jack Straw's fantasy of the nanosecond.

Dave: "It really is ridiculous to say that white Brits haven't taken "Indian" food to their hearts."

Such a statement would indeed be absurd, but no one on this thread made it. Apparently a post of four or five sentences in a row, setting out a position, is too long for you to stick with.

Dave writes,with an air of self-congratulation and daring, "We love spicy stuff!"

NSS. But it is not our "national dish". Are you able to understand the distinction?

Dave

Oh Verity. Quoting me you say;

"Dave: "It really is ridiculous to say that white Brits haven't taken "Indian" food to their hearts."

Such a statement would indeed be absurd, but no one on this thread made it."

Are you sure?

"Augustus
July 9th, 2008 11:38am
It is widely accepted and well-known that many whites are not partial to a lot of traditional African and Asian foods. "

I find comments like the one above just depressing. Along with the mysterious appearance of the word "spicy" in this whole sorry saga to being with. And then your assertion that Chicken Tikka isn't our national dish... why not?
It's an idea that's often been floated in Birmingham where I live (and long before Mr Straw mentioned it). As you say, it's a really popular dish invented in this country.
Why do you resist the idea it might be our national dish so much?

I saw "our"... Is it you that lives overseas?

Ann

"Why do you resist the idea it might be our national dish so much?"

Maybe because Verity prefers to deal in facts and not in silly affectations and fantasies? Can you get your little grey cells around that?

stanley Jerusalem

Ann, we started with food for human beings being despatched humanely and finished with dogs being beaten with big sticks. If you are a vegetarian I respect your position; if you wish to challenge the efficacy of Shechitah, do so. But let's not be seduced by wooly meaningless phrases anthropomorphising cuddly animals.
PS My truck is outside.

Verity

Dave - you are not a clear thinker. For starters, weknow that most people like Indian food because of the number of Indian restaurants and take-aways that do a roaring trade,plus the number of frozen Indian meals and the prepared spicy sauces that are sold.

In addition, the Indian food we get in Britain is the equal of the same dishes in India.

When I state that, "Chicken tikka is not our national dish", you ask, "Why not?"

Well, gosh, Dave, I don't know.

One person posted that he thought a lot of indigenous Brits don't like spicy food. So bloody what? Has this government imposed a new taste law? Not everyone likes hamburgers (moi). Not everyone likes fish and chips. Not everyone likes seafood.

You are one hell of a muddled thinker.

Kevyn Bodman

Every time I go to Britain I make a special point of at least once having fish and chips, eaten from the paper by hand.(This is, in fact,true.)

I am shocked to read Verity's claim that not everyone likes fish and chips.

Since they are such an important part of our traditional culture surely not liking them is racist!

I win the argument now because a cry of 'racist' trumps everything else nowadays.

Ann

Stan, your latest is not an answer but a weasely refusal to answer. Utterly pathetic.
Again, just so that others can see you for the coward you are: you claimed that cows are not sentient. Indeed, you mocked those of us who believe that they are sentient. I asked you whether dogs are sentient. You ran a mile. Your reference to 'cuddly' is silly. Cows are not cuddly. Hedgehogs are not cuddly. But they are living creatures. And for your information, members of the raven family and some starlings are very intelligent. In fact, so is the octopus. Please don't post nonsense about things you know nothing about.

Ann

Kevyn, be careful. Verity is a woman (I assume). You'll have Harpic Harridan on your back. Or shall I rephrase that?

Verity

Kevin Bodman - I personally love fish and chips. In fact, let's face it, it's our national dish!

I said some people may not like them, though, because I intuit that probably many French people would shudder.

Dave

So bloody what? Well it contradicts your earlier point, that's what.

And then La Verity writes: "When I state that, "Chicken tikka is not our national dish", you ask, "Why not?"

Well, gosh, Dave, I don't know."

So you know Chicken Tikka ISN'T our national dish. You just don't know why.
Bless.

What I find disturbing about this whole thread is this weird problem with "spicy" food. It's something that's not mentioned anywhere in the report as far as we know but introduced by The Telegraph and by Mel.

Right at the start someone moaned this sort of approach wouldn't apply to a child that turned their nose up at gefilte fish. But it patently would.

Perhaps because my partner is asian, perhaps because I live in a pretty cosmopolitan city I find this fixation on the spiciness of the food at the heart of all this very interesting.
Frankly, it's a little bit racist.
This thread has been one collective "YUK" when faced with the thought of... you know... CURRY.
Which is ironic when you think about it.

Verity, I'd did think you were based outside the UK... is that right? Because the final irony would be a foreigner lecturing me on the acceptable national dish for my country. Then I think my tiny brain really would explode. x

Verity

Ann - Yes, I'm a gal and a right winger and do not think I could be lumped in with the Harpic Hattie under anything further than we are both women.
Actually, yes ravens and, in fact, the whole crow family are highly intelligent. Also, so are parrots. We speak of people "parroting" things,as when Harriet Harpic parrots the communist party line, but some strains of parrots actually have conversations with people. They don't discuss Nietzsche, of course - but does anyone any more? - but they can apparently carry on simple conversations that demonstate they understand the meaning of what is being said to them.

Familiar Clown

Dave - Good God man, stop your stupid ramblings about chicken tikka and what-have-you. People in Britain have been eating curries for ages, right through their colonial past and beyond.
so what? some more sensitive folk may not enjoy them too hot.
so what? yes, there are plenty of Indian restaurants. the Bangladeshi chefs up and down the country saw to that. One of whom, I believe invented the tikki yuk.

The main point of the thread is the guide. To presume to advise staff of young children to report them to local councils for turning their noses up at food with which they are not familiar, on the premise that it is racism in embryo is pure and utter racist promotional propaganda. Failing to pick children uop on their racist attitudes could instil prejudice my foot! Who do these do-goodies think they are. It's child abuse plain and simple.

Verity

Dave, I'm British. Before I left England, I lived in England, if you can get your head round that. I bought frozen curries in the supermarket. I am an afficionada of Indian food.
But because chicken tikka is popular in "cosmopolian" Birmingham doesn't mean it is more popular,in our country at large, than roast beef and Yorkshire pudding or fish and chips.

It is not. Except, perhaps, among the "cosmopolitan" crowd, by which you may mean "Asian" a Brtish code word. Or perhaps there's a large French, German, American, Argentinian population in Birmingham, all panting for chicken tikka, too?

Verity

Familiar Clown - You are correct not to want this thread to be derailed.

The issue is the manipulation and intrusion and endlessly self-serving uppityness/control of the British Nomenklatura and Apparachik class.

It's none of their bloody business what five year old children don't want to eat, any more than it is wanting the reports on eating choices of adults.

God, they thought when the Wall came down, communism was dead and buried. But no. A warm socialist, self-serving awaited it in Britain, and Tony Blair was its apostle in chief. The most destructive prime minister in our history. I hope that one day, a long time from now, we have the privilege of reading Baroness Thatcher's uncensored opinion of him.

Neil Saunders

This is what happens when sociocultural Marxists get their hands on the levers of power and influence (and use them to dismantle an historic nation-state).

Only a mass campaign of civil disobedience on the part of the indigenous majority will suffice to stop these zealots. (Certainly not the Conservative Party, who have bought into this sort of lunacy completely.)

stanley Jerusalem

Ann.
I didn't claim cows were or weren't sentient, just that I like to eat them as has mankind for at least 60,000 years. What I was complaining about was Geoff's nasty uninformed jibe about shechitah which I qualified by quoting 'the tree-huggers guide to shechitah' by mentioning the 'sentient' label as well as the 'give them the benefit of the doubt' ploy which is always employed when qualitative and quantitative measurements of pain [ not suffering] are being bandied about.
By defending the 'sentient' ploy, you unite with the opponents of shechitah by default.
Whereas I am obliged to you for your information on the more vicious members of the crow family as well as your invaluable input on the 2008 octopus [ maybe they could achieve similar GCSE grades to our secondary school pupils ] I fail to see how they endorse your sentiments [sic] about cows.
As I said,I just want to eat them and therefore despatch them from their wives, families and careers in this world with the minimum of discomfort and I thus object to the Geoffs of this world slipping in his racist take as a string of perjorative unpleasant adjectives. After all, we are all sentient creatures, aren't we?

Verity

Neil Saunders, I agree. The Tories at the top, under the self-important, posturing David Cameron have indeed bought into the Gramscian programme. The top level of the Tories needs a spring cleaning. Keep William Hague and, uh, wait a minute ... uh... no, really, I'm thinking ...

When the Tories get in, Dave will twiddle some knobs and try to give the illusion of being a breath of fresh air, but his ideas are stale and pr-man fake. And he admires Tony Blair. That's all we need to know.

I've said it before, and it probably couldn't happen - although funny things do happen - David Cameron got in as Leader of the Conservatives; Tessa May was never sacked - but I'd like to see Patrick Mercer as Leader of the Tories. He's calm, rational and pragmatic. That's what we need. And being a military man, he would be popular with the country as a whole. I think a lot of Labour men would be comfortable voting for a soldier, whereas I cannot imagine one male Labour voter voting for David Cameron. (Can't even imagine a Conservative voting for him, either. Maybe those two photogenic, A-list Huskies on the Norwegian ice floe could drum up some votes for him ...)

stanley Jerusalem

Ann.
I didn't claim cows were or weren't sentient, just that I like to eat them as has mankind for at least 60,000 years. What I was complaining about was Geoff's nasty uninformed jibe about shechitah which I qualified by quoting the tree-huggers' guide to shechitah by mentioning the 'sentient' label as well as the 'give them the benefit of the doubt' ploy which is always employed when qualitative and quantitative measurements of pain [ not suffering] are being bandied about.
By defending the 'sentient' ploy, you unite with the opponents of shechitah by default.
Whereas I am obliged to you for your information on the more vicious members of the crow family as well as your invaluable input on the 2008 octopus [ maybe they could achieve similar GCSE grades to our secondary school pupils ] I fail to see how they endorse your sentiments [sic] about cows.
I just want to eat them and therefore despatch them from their wives, families and careers in this world with the minimum of discomfort and I thus object to the Geoffs of this world slipping in his racist take as a perjorative string of unpleasant adjectives. After all,we are all sentient creatures, aren't we?

The Happy Carbon Footprint

"After all,we are all sentient creatures, aren't we?"

I give you Tony Blair. Proven to have the thickest epidermis of any land-dwelling creature.

stanley Jerusalem

HCF
You are 1005 right but were he to be despatched in the painless method recommended who would object. Which QUANGO would issue the report or whose Action Group would demonstrate.
Nice idea mate but poor choice of 'sentient victim'.
Try an octopus, rumour has it that the animal lovers would pour out of the woodwork for that.
Ann! Are you listening, luv?

The Happy Carbon Footprint

Stanley Jerusalem - Where did I say I wanted "the painless method"?

Ann

"So you know Chicken Tikka ISN'T our national dish. You just don't know why.
Bless"

Is it not possible that you know the sky is not green, but you don't know why?
As Verity has rightly said, your thinking is distinguished mainly by being muddled.
I'll let Verity deal with your patronising sexism.

Ann

"By defending the 'sentient' ploy, you unite with the opponents of shechitah by default"

Drivel. I made no reference for or against shechitah, nor will I be bound by someone else's religious prejudices to refrain from stating the facts about sentient animals.
The rest of your post is equally silly. I have met dolphins who could reason more intelligently than that.

Ann

PS. I am not your 'luv', you patronising little man.

Herbert Thornton

Whatever next? When the National Children's Bureau detects one of these cases, will the toddler be taken into care and the parents be allowed only a couple of visiting hours a week, or none at all? As in other instances, Canada is not far behind - or is even ahead, depending how you look at it.

Apparently a woman in Winnipeg has just been deprived of custody of her two young children (aged 2 and 7) because she sent the 7-year old to school with a swastika painted on his arm. But even though a swastika is an offensive symbol and by no means as innocuous in most peoples' eyes as saying "Yuk" to curry, it seems to me that by taking the children away from their mother, the authorities have without a doubt caused the two children far more psychological damage than would have resulted from just ignoring the symbol.

Indeed when we ask ourselves who in this situation has really acted more like the Nazis - the mother or the Winnipeg Child and Family Services officials - the answer has to be Child and Family Services officials.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,380741,00.html

Marcus from the USA

Political correctness at disgustingly extreme levels.

As a vegetarian, I am absolutely disgusted by the slaughtering of animals.

The worse type is the Jewish "kosher" slaughter, where the animal must be conscious and bleed to death.

I know Sweden has banned the barbaric koseher slaughter; perhaps its time for Britain and the US to do the same.

Yuck!!!

Ann

Verity is off on another one of her screeching anti-Cameron diatribes. I know scads of Conservatives who will vote for him - and scads of disgusted ex-Labour supporters who have sworn to me they will never vote Labour again and will vote Tory next time.

Verity

Ann - You (quite rightly) took offence at Stanley Jerusalem patronising you, and then referred to me as "screeching" because I write negatively about David Cameron.

stanley Jerusalem

Oh Ann, I'm surprised at your taking exception to a well-known East London dialect expression [ Luv = Madam ].
Not being racist are we?
However your familiarity with big dogs, octopusses and now dolphins seems to suggest a withdrawal from mankind-oriented civilisation and a preference for consorting with marine life.
You aren't Darryl Hannah from " Splash" are you?
As far as stating what you entertainingly describe as facts with regards to Shechitah, please differentiate between sentient - an ability to perceive or feel and human - having the qualities of a man/woman.
As far as Marcus from the USA is concerned, being vegetarian would not necessarily preclude from objection to other sources of food and the means by which they are despatched. However, from your overly emotive description it seems that you have swallowed PETA's cuddly if wholly inaccurate views and as a result spew contumely whenever the opportunity arises. After all, why let scientific facts get in the way of a good rant?

Ann

Stan is resorting to ever more hysterical nonsense in his quest to duck my simple questions, which he is either too much of a coward to answer or has difficulty comprehending.
First, he is now accusing me of being a racist because I dislike his sexist patronising remarks.
Then, he accuses me of withdrawing from the human race because I appreciate the richness of the animal kingdom and refuse to be as ignorant about it as he is. Well, I don't withdraw from human society - this is just a fantasy of his overactive brain.
Next, he puts up a complete strawman in pretending that I am conflating 'sentient' with 'human'. All very clever, of course, but for the unfortunate fact that all of this is a figment of Stan's out-of-control imagination. I never said that dolphins are human, nor has anyone else. I said they are sentient and intelligent, and so they are. But then, I have seen jellyfish with a better grasp of this point.
But why am I bothering with a specimen who claims that dolphins are not even sentient ...

stanley Jerusalem

Ann:"But why am I bothering with a specimen who claims that dolphins are not even sentient ... I never said that dolphins are human, nor has anyone else. I said they are sentient and intelligent, and so they are. But then, I have seen jellyfish with a better grasp of this point.
Really,seriously luv?
Oh dear. "Nurse, the screens please"

stanley Jerusalem

For the record, the concept of an education system which requires children to go down on their hands and knees to pray to someone else's deity and that grasses up to 'Big Brother' little-uns who express a dislike of unfamiliar cuisine but is totally incapable of teaching said children to read,write and count to an acceptible level in the space of a mere 15 or so years, tells you everything that is wrong with the education system we are obliged to pay for with our hard-earned wages.
They are sick and they don't even realise it and we appear to be helpless since the time of Mrs.Thatcher's Incomprehensibles [ Goon Show - late 50's ] reduced our brilliant education system to a Lowest Common Denominator of " It's better to be happy than successful" crap.
I guarantee they couldn't even spell 'successful' today - the teachers not the pupils, poor sods!

Ann

The usual patronising sexist drivel from Stan, who thinks he can tell an A-level science examiner of 20 years' standing that she doesn't understand science - even though he doesn't know the first thing about animal brains and understands less.

Ann

No, Verity - because you post your silly attacks all over the shop, whether or not they are even remotely relevant to the matter at hand. You are just a tad obsessed with your hatred for Cameron, and your posts about him are verging on the hysterical.

Dave

Verity: So you don't live here. But somehow know how what this great country is all about.
But clearly from your responses, you really don't, and perhaps never did, have a clue.

The point about my "obsession" with Chicken Tikka is that it's not my obsession at all. The word "spicy" seems to have been the invention of the DT, Mel and you lot. There's something really strange about the way you're all drawn to worrying about the rights of our children to turn their noses up at... the ghastly smell of curry.
Honestly, you guys would have stayed at home with your Ovaltine rather than build the British Empire.

stanley Jerusalem

Ann, I can be very certain that most A-Level students today could not pass the A-level papers which I took in 1958. They tried it last year in the UK with depressing results. Goodness only knows what they would make of the degrees we took in the Sixties.
They can't count without a calculator,and they are not sure what their answer signifies, can't do long-division, can't spell, can't construct a coherent sentence and that'll be your 20-year's standing experienced examiner whom no-one has thought to offer a chair.
We are being short-changed by a totally politicised education system. Even in 1924 when the school leaving-age was 14, more than 85% of the kids could read, write and count[in their heads!]Not now luv!
BTW which animal brains
[about which I am said to understand less than nothing-whatever that may mean],are we proposing for A-levels and what does that have to do with little Willy saying "Ugh!" to alien foodstuffs [i.e. anything his Mum doesn't cook]?

Verity

Ann - I don't "screech" and I'm not "obsessed" with David Cameron, although I think he is not intellectually or emotionally equipped to be prime minister of Britain. I also think he is too controlling and not sufficiently collegiate and this isn't healthy for a cabinet, consensus style of governing. Why should I not say so?

That you disagree doesn't bother me, as I always enjoy reading your posts whether I agree with them or not; but you take my disagreement as a personal affront, which it is not.

Dave - you appear to be hanging off the cliff-edge of lunacy: "Verity: So you don't live here. But somehow know how what this great country is all about."

1. I was born in Britain. I went to school in Britain. I lived my life in Britain. I worked in Britain. I lived my social life in Britain. I speak with an English accent. My passport is British.

2. Then I moved overseas.

Do you think people who leave the country wipe out their entire life's history? I don't understand "what this great country is all about". I would disagree that it is a great country since Tony Blair and the Gramscian/Trot vandals took a pick axe to it,but believe it can be so again with a strong Conservative government.

I was aware of chicken tikka before I left Britain. I ate in Indian restaurants.

I am one of around three million people who are British and were driven out by the destructive nature of Tony Blair and the ridiculous Gordon Brown. All those three million Brits living overseas are familiar with Indian food. Most have access to it in their new cities as Indian restaurants are not, let me assure you, unique to Britain.

I'm not answering any further whining from you.

Dave

Verity: Because leaving is copping out. It comes to define you and who you are. You are driven by the anger of what you think you were forced to lose. Never in charge of your destiny, you define your life choice in terms of the politicians you left behind.
And yet you feel compelled to return in a virtual way to the country you couldn't cope with. Let it go, love. Try and make a new life for yourself.
As an immigrant of course. Oh the irony!

Ann

What patronising nonsense from Dave to Verity!

Verity, I don't take any of the stuff here personally. The most I do is laugh at some of them, and post my opinions in response, as the case may be. Since you know very little about me, and none of it personal? how can anything you write be personal?

Verity

Ann - Good heavens! I don't take offence at your opinions! I always read them with interest because you always introduce a challenging point. I'm not bothered at all that we don't agree.

As far as drooling Dave is concerned, what can I say? Dave, sweetie, you've wasted 11 years of your life living in a kingdom not of your making and not to your liking and you castigate me because I left.

Despite a passionate defence of chicken tikka, which is a domestic dish, you don't seem to have very much by way of international reference. The world does not operate as "open borders Britain" operates.

Most desirable countries are somewhat more exacting in their requirements than Britain regarding who they let in.

A passionate attachment to chicken tikka and cosmopolitan Birmingham don't count on the points system.

Ann

More irrelevant nonsense from Stan. I have excellent science qualifications from 3 universities going back 40 years, and was an A-level examiner 20+ to ca. 10 years ago.
What my knowledge of science, and Stan's obvious ignorance of it, have to do with what is happening to 16- to 19-year olds in state schools today (the standards in independent schools are as high as they've always been), shall remain a mystery. I cannot claim to have insight into his lively fantasies.

Ann

Verity, haven't we been there already?

I don't take personal offence at anyone's posts. Yours are mostly interesting, and I agree with the majority of them. All I was saying was that you bring one particular issue into the discussion whether or not it's relevant.

Dave

Verity: Easy mistake to make assuming everyone thinks like you. But I don't. I love this country. For all it's faults. It's a wonderful place to live.
Now do try and move on and make a new life for yourself.

Pete

How can we stop this sick Government imposing more sick & stupid impositions on us before we can get them out of power?

stanley Jerusalem

Ann; Apart from being nearly as old as I am and probably having similar qualifications at a similar level, do you really believe that a state school A-level student today could pass any of the A-level papers you or took [ P.maths, App. Maths, Phys. Chem]?
I totally agree with you about independent schools, by and large.
BTW why 3 universities? Did the Old Bill move you on [Goon Show- 1955]

Hungry Honky from Hungary

My kids love goulash!

Ann

Stan, my comment about the irrelevance of today's 16-19 year olds in state schools to this issue (see a few posts back), in conjunction with my comment about standards in independent school, was meant to imply just that: today's students would not pass 'old' A-levels.
Three universities because I changed direction after starting my first degree, and went on to study my new subject elsewhere. I then did the higher stuff elsewhere again. No Bill was involved, not even romantically.

Verity

Dave, who thinks chicken tikka is Britain's national dish because "cosmopolitan" Birmingham loves it so, writes further: "Because leaving is copping out. It comes to define you and who you are."

No it doesn't.

"You are driven by the anger of what you think you were forced to lose."

No, I'm not. I didn't lose a thing by moving to a better climate, much lower taxation and non-obsessive interference in the lives of private citizens.

"Never in charge of your destiny,"

I took the reins of my destiny out of the obsessive, controlling hands of the British Labour party and its totalitarian government.

"you define your life choice in terms of the politicians you left behind."

No, I don't. I define my life by my life here. I follow British politics as a hobby, because I'm familiar with the players and some of the bloggers here are witty and fun. Like the vast majority of expats, I wouldn't return to Britain.