A moral revival?

Herbert Thornton

It is all very well to hail Cameron as though he were Moses newly descended from the mountain complete with the Ten Commandments, but as Melanie says, can we believe in it?

In discussion in Melanie's thread headed "Whoops! Someone's goosestep is showing" I based my dissent on my conviction that there is no basis whatever for believing that the Tories offer the changes that the nation and people want and desperately need.

A Moral Revival? This new piece by Melanie convinces me even more strongly that real and necessary change will not come from Cameron and his Tories. They do not represent change we can believe in.

cawp

No, I fear he won't: instead his call for morality will merely seal cultural Marxism as the new morality of the nation, and having got into people's lives by the sanction of relativism etc, it will now reign in people's lives by this method.

This could very easily turn out to be a ratcheting up of political correctness.

Gramsci wished chaos and undermining of traditional morality so as to *establish* a new one, in the end.

Norm

If that was to happen he might just retain my vote.

Derah Yasque

I'd like to think the answer to any of the questions here will be 'yes'.
I fear however, that we will not be ready to tackle things in the manner alluded to, until we have descended even lower, and the layers of generations of spoilt brats, have tasted the real depravations which are on the way.

raymond joseph douglas

Yes,the day cameron stands up to the Gay maffia,will be the day I know he is serious about what he says!

Craig Strachan

There's really no reason why Catholics in Glasgow East or anywhere else should be frustrated. They are free to live their faith, and be as socially conservative as they wish in their own lives.

They just can't impose their values on the rest of us. And neither can David Cameron!

Derah Yasque

Craig Strachan.

You imply that ours is a society free from the imposition of values, when in fact we have had the values - more accurately, the lack of them - of liberal relativism foisted on us for the last 40 years.

Now that's what I call frustration.

paul hill

Sound work,cogent analysis and a thoroughly readable piece until the penultimate paragraph when it promptly goes all relativist on contact with the real world

cassander

Dear Ms Phillips,
you really don't get the point of the anti-42-days argument at all, do you? It is not about being soft on terrorists, it is about being hard on totalitarians.
Let me give you an example: suppose there was a writer with strong views running counter to the prevailing wisdom, for example, she might be pro-Israel and a "climate change denier". Now suppose somebody in authority wanted to teach this hypothetical scribe a lesson (pour encourager les autres, perhaps). Nothing could be easier than having her arrested on suspicion of some "hate crime", and then locked up for six weeks *without a chance to protest her innocence in a court of law*. Meanwhile, the authorities could search all her files for any "incriminating evidence", and retain or copy whatever material they wished as an insurance against future unapproved behaviour. After six weeks, release the writer and let her try to get back to normal activities again.
Just think about it, please? This is what we are trying to prevent from happening - do you think it couldn't happen here?

Robin

Nothing I'd wish for more would be for the Tories & The Boy David to grasp all those nettles.

We'd just need as well to get out of the economic mess and the C02 obsession to put the smile back on my face.

Joe Strummer

Please forgive me but as someone with a close eye on the Glasgow / Scottish political scene, I was almost doubled up in knots of laughter when I read in that Daily Telegraph link by the notorious Scottish ( or is he Irish today ? )Roman Catholic extremist and paranoic James McMillan, who also sees anti-Catholicism on every corner, claiming that New Labour is "anti-Catholic".

It is just too proposterous and laughable for words.

Anyone familiar with the West and Central Scotland will know that the Labour Party and Catholicism, the Trade Union leadership, especially within the public sector, are inextricably linked, where Catholic nepotism and cronyism is in everday existence and fact of life.

Does the sectarian anti-Protestant Monklands-Gate Scandal ring any bells for anyone where Catholics were given different coloured job application forms to ensure success over the other candidates .?

Indeed, Labour-controlled Glasgow City Council, or Glasgow Catholic Council as it is more widely known in the standing joke, hasn't seen a non-Catholic Lord Provost for more than three decades despite Catholics making up just more than 30% of the Glasgow population.

More than 90% of Labour councillors in Glasgow are also Catholic, so where is this anti-Catholic prejudice McMillan speaks of.?

In fact,nothing gets the go-ahead in local Scottish Labour circles without going past the various Catholic cabals and fiefdoms of Glasgow and Lanarkshire first.

The truth is that since Devolution the Scottish branch of the Roman Catholic Church, which is more fundamentalist than most, has become more strident and outspoken in Scottish political life, in effect, dangerously seeking major influence within the Scottish Parliament. It has regularly attacked Westminster Labour's policies such as Clause 28 and piled the pressure on local Catholic Scottish Labour politicians to submit to its wishes and disobey their Labour leadership at Westminster.

This is where the SNP, especially Alex Salmond, has deviously exploited the situation to openly court the Scottish RC Church to hopefully persuade the all-powerful traditional Labour Catholic vote to switch sides. This is what will decide this by-election, grubby petty sectarianism.

The other Spectator blogger, Fraser Nelson, makes the most telling and salient comment of David Cameron deliberately making a speech within a Catholic church on his visit to the Glasgow constituency to drive the point home.

This by-election is to see which political party can offer the RC Church even more power in the Scottish Government. This is not a good time for Scotland.

Dave

@raymond joseph douglas
Haven't you heard! Us gays are in the vanguard against the Islamist take over of Britain!
We're queering up the streets to stop the Muslim takeover! Surely you must be in favour of that?
Was that *pop!* I heard the sound of your tiny brain exploding?
Hugs'n'kisses x

DG

Melanie, I would recommend extreme caution when dealing with any pronouncements by James MacMillan. The man is a talented composer but a lame amateur political commentator, whose views are tainted by his own religious bigotry that would've seemed reactionary and out of date decades ago.

Andrew Gower

Will he or won't he? For me, actions speak louder than words and, as Mr Cameron's actions have thus far demonstrated, anyone hoping that that a Conservative Government will somehow stem the moral decline that has prevailed over the last 40 or so years, is sadly misguided.

Beside his philisophising has Mr Cameron and his party actually set about drafting legislation to deal with Britain's moral decline that will be implemented should the Conservatives be elected to power? Hardly.

Nowhere do I see any proposal to restore primacy to the married family unit by rebuking 'civil partnership' arrangements which have eroded the special priveleges traditionally afforded to married couples. I have seen no proposal to remove welfare handouts from all but the elderly, the young and the infirm. I have seen no policy aimed at curtailing drug addiction by prosecuting drug abusers and I have seen no disapproval expressed by Mr Cameron of the adoration afforded to several high-profile celebrity drug addicts. I have seen no policy aimed at improving policing by outlawing so-called positive discrimination that prevents some of the most appropriate candidates from being recruited to the police, and neither do I see any proposal aimed at repealing the Police and Criminal Evidence Act that hinders the police from carrying out their duties effectively. I see no propoal aimed at scrapping the Crown Prosecution Service whose actions are based more on political posturing and less so on supporting the vicim. I see no proposal to restore grammer schools on a nationwide scale to deal with our failing comprehensive schools-based system. And I see no proposal aimed at restoring self-government to Britain by withdrawing British membership of the European Union which would so help facilitate the above-mentioned policies.

Craig Strachan

Derah Yasque,

I'm sure British society does transmit certain values - just not the reactionary values of the Catholic church, which seems to be James MacMillan's complaint.

Incidentally, Melanie's penultimate paragraph above demonstrates the danger inherent in elevating policy positions you happen to agree with to the status of moral imperatives.

You end up reeling off lists of absolutist demands in a quite off-putting manner.

David Raynes

You were doing quite well Melanie until you linked in the six weeks issue. You still do not "get it" (as you would say) that many well informed, indeed inevitably much better informed than you on this issue and the process of criminal investigation, do not agree with the proposal on six weeks detention without charge. It is right that we have a debate. you have made your contribution. In debate one side is usually wrong. This time it is you. Get over it.

Frank Pulley

That one must have hurt, Melanie, (DR) but he's right. You've been listening to the wrong people on this issue. And as you know, it's the only time I've ever been on the other side of the debate when you're in the 'aye' lobby; it saddens me.

canon alberic

It also surprises me that you are so reactively persistently and even pruriently homophobic. It detracts from your many admirable and brave qualities.

Marwan

Middle England, the silent majority or whichever term you please, have swallowed cultural marxism (such an apt phrase) with nary a complaint while the good times rolled. Cameron might tack morality onto his project but his party owe their current revival in the polls to one thing : the recession. As the serial intern fluffer once said, "its the economy stoopid" People accept any left wing excrement if their pockets are stuffed.

Dave

@Marwan: I do love a silent majority though. They never shut up!

V. Budd

No, David Cameron won't do any of those things because his self-interest (aka ego) trumps everything else. For hism as with most other politicians, it's all about winning (ie, winning No. 10 and being the Big Man). The country, the people, the party, morality itself (the list is endless) all come after. He'll do or say anything to win. After we've voted him in, we can all go to hell. (And we will.) But he'll still get my vote: ANYTHING to get rid of Labour.

bluecurious

Joe Strummer and DG seem to be yer typical post-protestant Scottish bigot. MacMillan took this shower on a few years ago and wiped the floor with them. They are obviously still smarting.

You are right to be intrigued by his comments, Melanie. The Scottish chatteratti hate him - he's supposerd to be anti-Scottish now (!?), but his journey away from the Left is fascinating for those of us who follow these things.

Tim Robinson

Andrew Gower said "Nowhere do I see any proposal to restore primacy to the married family unit by rebuking 'civil partnership' arrangements which have eroded the special priveleges traditionally afforded to married couples."

I agree with everything else you've said but why does my Civil Partnership erode privileges afforded marriage?

Dave, re. the gays and the muslims - spot on!

Joe Strummer

-blue curious

The Scottish chatterati, whoever they may be,and like everyone else in the country, don't hate the religious madman McMillan, they rightly laugh at him as the David Icke-esque irrelevance figure that he is.

As for fighting bigotry, I'll buy you and McMillan front row tickets for next year's Orange-Fest in Glasgow. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.! lol

Byron in Wahroonga

***they just can't impose their values on the rest of us***

Ha! Can you narrow that one down, Craig? I'd thought *anyone* can impose their values on current-day Britain- anyone, but Christians.

Sergey

In Britain, as everywhere else, one thing is certain: general public is so tired and irritaded by moral depravity imposed on it by EU elites, that soon it will vote for everybody who can be seen as a hope to put an end to this: nationalists, traditionalists of every stripe, even outright facsists. And they are right.

Gordon Neil

Ms Phillips caution is not unreasonable. I think she understands better than most the scale of the effort and commitment that will be needed if this country is to be rescued from the morass created by the NuLab project. But Mr Cameron's speech at least gives us some hope that the man who is likely to be the next Prime Minister understands the nature of the real failure at the heart of NuLab. I find much in James MacMillian's piece in the Telegraph that echos my own sentiments. MacMillian articulates, with commendable insight and candor the frustrations I have felt as the Labour Party abandoned the socially conservative working class, where my allegiance to it was forged. I suspect there are now many like me who are looking to alternatives and Mr Cameron's appears to be shaping up as a credible option.

Joe Strummer

-Sergey

A very good point. When there is no moral leadership to be found, desperate people will instead seek it from the strangest of organisations, be it the repugnant racist and violent BNP or the RC Church with its history of genocide, money laundering, Nazi collusion, worldwide endemic paedophilia scandals, and goodness knows what else.

Britain is at a crossroads and it MUST make the right choices which will claw back some decency and dignity to this country but not take the even worse turn in the road which will only bring social repression.

Craig Strachan

Byron,

It's like the bumper sticker says: "If you're against abortion, don't have one!"

cuffleyburgers

I don't see why he should come out against lifestyle liberalism - libertarianism if you like.

You started well, then went all Daily Mail on us.

Cameron's speech was brave and right and will pay vast dividends in terms of shifting the terms of the debate. it is the perfect way to capitalise on Mr Brown's travails.

Phillip Reece

I'm not convinced, Cameron want's the votes of the dissafected, But that's all he want's, If he achieves office he will betray the people and the nation because his party is as wedded to multiculti liberalism as Labour, They might make the occasional song and dance about it but that's all you'll ever get.

I have no more faith in Cameron than i have in Tony Blair.

George Steiner

Your scepticism over the pigmy Cameron is well justified. Morality can't be legislated. It develops over a long time, sometimes over centuries.

After morality has evaporated, it will not return easily, or quickly. You may weep.

Mike Brearley

Joe Strummer, while I admire your ability to insert anti-Catholic remarks in the most unlikely contexts, I notice that you have not answered my response to the garbage you posted in the last but one thread.

As for the slightly more sane David Cameron, insofar as the economy does well under his watch, he will be happy, and so will the populace, whether this country has descended even further into philistinism or not. Even if we stop stabbing each other, I doubt there will ever be a time when we look beyond Big Brother or Wife swap for our culture. This fact is important, since the cause of our decline is in large part cultural as well as moral.

NBeale

What on earth has "42 days" got to do with moral responsibility?? There is *no* evidence that this 42 days nonsense will do anything to reduce the terrorist threat, and the number of people killed in the UK by Islamist terrorists this century - although 52 too many, is probably less than the number killed by bee and wasp stings, and less than 0.2% of the number killed on the roads.

Michael Petek

Mr Cameron should have paused to think before declaring a crusade against the fat and the poor.

The problem with Mr Cameron is that he takes his morals from a lucky dip. Like the portly GK Chesterton I take mine from Jesus Christ and the Pope. Mr Cameron has an appointment with one of them at the Last Judgement, and he is likely to find that encounter infelicitous given the measure of his record against the Ten Commandments.

Contrary to the First, he succeeds Margaret Thatcher as the high priest and Grand Ipsissimus of Mammon.

Contrary to the Second, he voted to abolish the common law offences of blasphemy and blasphemous libel.

Contrary to the Fifth, he supports abortion on demand and voted in favour of the Human Fertilisation and Embryology Bill on its Second Reading.

Contrary to the Sixth, he voted in favour of same-sex civil partnerships and for sexual orientation regulations which are driving Christians out of adoption work.

Contrary to the Seventh and the Tenth he covets other people’s wages and wants to steal their labour. He proposes to send the unemployed to hell unless they agree to spend a year working for nothing.

That voting record makes him about as wicked and depraved as anyone else currently sitting in Parliament.

Verity

I agree with Cawp, 8:15. All David Cameron will do is hammer "political correctness", aka thought fascism further into the structure - under a different guise, to be sure, but the same programme - and formalise it. I also agree with V Butt, that he is motivated not by service to Britain, but by the louche desire to get his feet under the PM's desk in No 10 and will embark on an agenda of serving the interests of the EUSSR in the secure knowledge that he will end up, eventually and if he serves it properly, in the carpeted corridors of Brussels with an sinecure of his own.

He's a pr man - and a TV pr man, for God's sake, just to compound it. His whole ethos is, "Be sincere, even if you don't really mean it."

If he is leading the Conservatives at the time of the GE, I will break the habit of a lifetime (and my parents' lifetimes) and won't be voting Tory.

Joe Strummer

-Mike Brearley

I do not enter anti-Catholic remarks for effect or for any cheap sectarian motives. You presumably do not know the sectarian undercurrents whih pervade the internal Glasgow political scene, so better to be silent on issues you don't know anything about.

Oh, and I have answered your other post on another thread. Its always good to enlighten the unaware.

Joe Strummer

- Mike Brearley

I hope you're becoming more aware of the sectarian anti-Protestant aspect of Glasgow politics.

Even today, Gordon Brown today plays this card by delaying the proposed Embryo research bill to Autumn in the hope it will "reach out" to Catholic voters in the all important Glasgow East by-election.

Same old Glasgow Labour as I stated in my earlier post in looking after the Catholics as their top priority.

Terry

Superb post Melanie - the left would say yes, racism and homophobia are wrong and applaud DC for supporting them in saying so.

The real issue though is whether traditional notions of right and wrong can be brought back into public discourse - I can't see DC alienating potential gay votes though...

We need people to fearlessly tell it as it is, without fear - more power to your elbow, Melanie

raymond joseph douglas

Even lefties like Diane Abbot(This week,Thursday) are finally waking up to the atrocious,awfull consequences of the miserable policies they themselves have pushed!Still,beter late than never!Trouble is,the commanding heights of the labour party embodied by the Harman/Primarolo axis,are still in utter denial regarding the wasteland they have created!Cameron is to be congratulated on the stand he has made.But,it is for all of us,not least the Church in this country,to make our stand,and fight for our beloved nation!

Jules Akers

Dave- no problem with two blokes having consenting sex with eachother. Its doing it where my kids are out playing football I don't care for. This is not a homophobic position. Do you want to see me having sex with a woman while you are out antiquing? Guess not.
I just want to live in civilised country before I forget what it looks like.

Neil Saunders

Empty stuff from a shallow opportunist.

It amazes me that anybody could think that there is anything of substance in Cameron's speech to discuss.

Mike Homfray

I think that the picture will be a mixed one. I think that some of what you desire masy be followed, but i think that the days of gay issues becoming centre-stage is well and truly over. A member of the Tory shadow cabinet, likely to be the next party chair, enjoyed a civil partnership last week. The gay issue really isn't something many are bothere3d about any more. There are likely to be a number of other openly gay Tory MP's after the next election - at least 5 I think.

Jenny

Thank you, thank you, thank you, to Melanie Phillips for your refreshing, but unfortunately all too rare candor and common sense.