Israel's tragic blunder

Hysteria

sad for the families but I think your analysis is correct - we do not need a strengthened Hamas (or Iran) right now

jerry

Herb Keinon in The Jerusalem Post wrote about the asymmetric exchange today (Wed. July 16). Among the points he made was the following:

"Many have said over the last few days that a "normal country" would not have made such an asymmetrical trade for two coffins. Perhaps. But normal countries don't have thousands of people walking around not knowing where relatives are buried, and therefore valuing a simple grave."

His comment was made with regard to families who lost relatives in the European Holocaust who have not a clue as to where their relatives are buried.

field

I agree Melanie.

We can't be too hard on the Israelis about this. It is clearly a cultural weak point - the need to bury the fallen - and one that reflects humane values. But it is indeed a very serious strategic blunder. Much of the Arab world is brought up to associated might with right. To see Hezbollah celebrating and Israel in tears sends a powerful message to the Arab masses.

John West

There are interesting parallels between Britain and Israel, not least that they represent two of the three worst-governed political entities in the developed world (the third being California). In each, the cultural and political gestalt has been reshaped by an insidious left-wing nomenklatura, and I sometimes wonder if the British Left’s antipathy toward Israel doesn't in some measure derive from seeing the reflection there of its own fecklessness, only distorted as in a funhouse mirror.

D, Stevens

Israel may be too soft, or maybe the proper term is stupid, to survive.
Seems suicidal to release, in a time of war, live enemy combatants who have special knowledge of Israeli thinking from their jail time, and who have killed and would be happy to kill more Israelis given half a chance, in exchange for two long dead bodies.
Crazy, stupid and suicidal, complete with olmert talking about his heart bleeding for the families of the dead soldiers - asshole; what about the relatives of the people kuntar murdered, watching the murdered being freed by Israel and then greeted as a hero in Lebanon; disgusting.

dmgold

Olmert is "the tragic blunder". The man was not fit to run a city and he is certainly way out of his league with his poor attempt at running a country. Sorry but Nasrallah has made Olmert and Israel look like they have no idea what they are doing(for the last two years).

Terry

It's what I'd expect from Olmert & Co. There is a vacuum of strong and purposeful Jewish leadership in Israel. Olmert characterises this - an inconsequential moron. The arab fascists only understand strength. Whatever their allies, the un and eu, say, Israel should have been shooting 10 terrorist prisoners a day until their soldiers were returned alive. If not alive then they should shoot a couple of hundred such subhuman genocide killers in their jails. If Olmert had any moral fortitude he'd have got the IDF to raid the welcome home party and kill as many terrorists as possible, including the child murderer. Jewish life is widely accepted to be cheap. To reverse such perceptions it must become very, very expensive.

philip

I was also amazed to hear the BBC world report that Israel "ALLEGES" Kuntar was responsible for killing a child and then went on to interview Kuntar's brother

Michael Petek

What annoys me is that they handed over five Hezbollah terrorists alive. They should have killed them before handing them over. And if the Israelis are still holding enough of them they should execute ten of them for each of the two Israeli soldiers.

S Seaborne

Israel has but two tragic blunders; the West Bank and Gaza.

Mike Mckee

I have no problem with israel exchanging dead bodies for dead bodies.

Live bodies for dead ones?
Never.
rather execute them first.

As for asymetrical.
it sets a terrible standard for the world and encourages the terrorists.

As for letting lifers go.
never.
execute them first.
it devalues the victims and their loved ones.
worse the example it sets does not lead to law and order.

Michael Medved

Dear Melanie,

I once discussed with you a matter of reintroducing a capital punishment for especially horrible crimes. My position was that such a punishment would perhaps deter some criminals from pursuing their heinous deeds - andin any case save vast amounts of taxpayers' money and prevent different terror groups from using their "martyrs" as bargaining chips.

You were repulsed at the very idea. I sincerely hope you would reconsider your stance in the wake of Samir Kuntar's release.

Geoffrey Dron

As Fisky says in today's (17/7)Indy, another Israel-Hizb war is assuredly coming. That will be the time for the IDF to remove the terrorists from the scene and deliver a blow against Iran.

Alcuin

I think Melanie's analysis is right. As soon as the Israelis knew their men were dead, they should have agreed only to exchange the bodies, not the prisoners.

This will be seen across the Arab world as weakness, and encourage further outrages. If you want to see a real recruiting sergeant for terrorists, it is "successes" like this one.

Kennybhoy

Mr Medved,

Sorry but notion of deterrence as a primary, rather than merely ancillary justification for capital punishment is indeed repulsive.

Best Wishes,

Kenny

PS If you are "THE" Michael Medved...? "Hollywood Versus America" is brilliant and I wholeheartedly recommend it to any one interested in some of the matters currently under discussion over at Miss Phillips' "The BBC's Contamination" post.

Ann

None of you understand the first thing about Israel and Israelis, and of course it's pretty obvious that none of you have ever lived there for any length of time. Bringing the fallen to a Jewish grave is part of the national psyche, and it is a moral strength. And those making ignorant and snide remarks about Olmert and 'worst government' and suchlike: it has always been thus, right from the 1940s, that the bodies of fallen soldiers are returned from foreign fields at any cost, even in the middle of a hazardous military operation.

Mike

Yesterday was a humiliation for Israel, and a day of triumph for Hizbollah......a recipe for another war if ever I saw one.

Two captured Israelis led to the 2006 invasion of Lebanon, which ended with 1000 plus dead Lebanese civilians, more than 150 Israeli soldiers, and ended with 5 prisoners accompanied by 200 Hizbollah, Amal militia and Palestinian corpses in exchange for the remains of the two Israelis and a box of body-parts.

If that was what this chapter in the blighted history of the Middle East was all about, then when and where is the end of this tragic story?

Roy

Israel reminds me of a perfectly rational, sane individual, thrown into a lunatic asylum, continuously being subjected to abuse with barrages of obscenities, lies, and all manner of twistered facts, yelled and screamed at day and night, you are a raving lunatic, subhuman, crazy. Sooner or later this once normal individual will begin to show a type of remorse and tend towards a feeling of inferiority and self doubt.
... Is this the Israel we see now?

Andy Gill

OK, but Israel emerged with great dignity over the exchange. On the other hand, Lebanon's tawdry celebrations on the return of the child-murderer gave the world a vivid image of the depravity and inhumanity of Hezbollah.

Harvey

Michael Petek says...
What annoys me is that they handed over five Hezbollah terrorists alive. They should have killed them before handing them over. And if the Israelis are still holding enough of them they should execute ten of them for each of the two Israeli soldiers.

I believe the nazis were rather fond of that trick in occupied Europe.

Mark Chapman

Terry I dont think that is going to help anyone. What you are saying is that the IDF should behave towards arab terrorists in jail in the same manner that the SS behaved towards civilian serbs in serbia.
In lebanon terrorist insurgents were killed because they legitimate targets in a defensive war, just as islamists in bosnia were killed in skirmishes with Mladic's Men.
to suggest that reprisal killings in a civilian context further the aims of a just war is as mad as beleiving that thousands of innocent muslims were killed in cold blood in the so called srebrenica "genocide", sorry massacre, sorry wrong again skirmishes.

Adam B.

I can't understand why the Israeli government made a deal without knowing for sure whether their soldiers were alive or dead. It's not just the deal which shows weakness, but the way Israel negotiated. The report from Hizbollah on the fate of Ron Arad (captured in 1986!)was also a pack of lies. Israel went ahead with the deal anyway, without insisting on more details. Hizbollah has rearmed since the 2006 war, despite the fact that the UN was meant to guarantee that Hizbollah would be disarmed (why is it that the UN makes sure Israel meets its part of the bargain - withdrawal from Lebanon, but utterly ignores the obligations of the terrorists?) This newly armed Hizbollah, with more missiles in its arsenal than in 2006, is now ready to launch a new war when the heat gets turned up on Iran over its nuclear ambitions. This is a very dangerous moment - Israel must act decisively and not dither.

phil

The bible says an eye for an eye and I say a body for a body ,a prisoner for a prisoner-hesbollah and its henchmen say a mutilated and abused corpse for one of the most reviled murderers this world has ever seen-It may be the time Israel has to confront its long standing moral stance of never leaving a soldier on the battlefield ,and I say that with great sorrow ,but because their stance will produce more and more disgusting bargaining opportunities for a group without morals .We in the west are seeing these people with a clouded vision that they obey our rules or even that they are victims -they patently are not .One only has to see what they are doing to each other all over the Arab world without any interference from the Israelis to realise the lie that we are living with .

In Israel the death of two soldiers was mourned by a whole nation, and In hesbollahland the return of kuntar and 100 corpses was celebrated with glee-how can a moral western mind equate that difference in mentality ? I believe Olmert was wrong to do this deal but understand his dilemma as he was proceeding with Israel,s promise to its people from its inception ,it is time for them now to confront the position it finds itself in and think again -one of the previous posters suggested Israel should have executed the prisoners prior to their release ,I cannot go along with that as they would be falling into the same hateful mindset of hesbollah and they are worth so much more than that .

Israel fought the last war with both hands tied behind its back and a war that was instigated by demented lunatics who cared nothing for the damage that would be done not only to the Israelis but more importantly one would think ,to their own . Friends from the Lebanon have told me repeatedly of the paradise that was their country before these evil lunatics gained so much power -It is time enough for the west to face up to the fact that we are being drawn in to cloud cuckoo land by these people and that Israel is standing on the bulwarks of our civilisation , and that they need our moral support rather than the daily castigation that is the regular diet from the left .Godforbid there is another war ,but if so Israel must fight under the same "rules of engagement" as hesbollah and hamas ,then we would see a very different result -I just pray it never happens .

Adam B.

Harvey, the Nazis murdered innocent CIVILIANS. Terry's point was that Israel is handing back Hizbollah TERRORISTS alive, when it received dead soldiers in return (soldiers who were alive when captured). This isn't the first time this has happened. In the previous swap a few years ago, three Israeli soldiers were handed back (in another asymmetric deal) dead, when they had been kidnapped alive (in front of the noses of the UN "peacekeepers" who did nothing to intervene). If anyone is behaving like nazis, it's Hizbollah.

paul hill

Andy Gill-IMHO what you say is entirely correct.
By doing what it,instinctively, felt to be right Israel emerged from yesterday with the type of dignity and moral quality it possessed until recently.

Loked at in pure CI terms it was a classic case of "winning whilst appearing to lose"

Ian C

Ann you say " Bringing the fallen to a Jewish grave is part of the national psyche, and it is a moral strength."

I am far from sure that this is the case. It may be an admirable qaulity, but it is in fact a true weakness in the Israeli psyche because enemys know it and play on it. Hence this situtaion that has so many precedents that Hisbollah know they can coax a result for themselves.

Greg

Israel has done these lop-sided exchanges before and will do so again. Israel's grave existential threat is exactly the same as it's always been. Frankly I prefer an over-confident Hezbollah than one desperate to display its credentials. The sight of the Lebanese celebrating the return of these killers will lose it as many friends as it will gain. Even Robert Fisk wasn't impressed in the Independent today.

phil

Just nipped over to the Independent to read what they had to say -donald McIntyre reported from Jerusalem ,no comment section allowed---R Fisk reports from Lebanon -FULL COMMENT SECTION FILLED WITH ARABIST HATE MAIL-Is it any wonder peace is so hard to be made when the agenda of much of our press is so biased ?

Roslyn Pine

The events we have just witnessed once again reinforces the message that Israel is indeed an island of humanity in a sea of barbarity---- a light unto the nations.
Moreover, it was reported that Smadar Haran, whose family was so brutally murdered by Kuntar, was not against the exchange, if, as she said, it would help the soldiers' families.

Israel's supposed "humiliation" in the last Lebanese war in failing to achieve her objectives was as a result of the inordinate pressure placed upon her by the US, UK, EU, UN as soon as the tide turned in her favour, so that she was literally stopped in her tracks from achieving her goals. This tactic has been used by Israel's so-called friends in prievious wars launched against her in order not to "humiliate" the Arabs and compromise their "honour".

I wonder whether we shall hear from William Hague (the Conservative shadow defence minister) and Michael Ancram complaining that Israel's exchange of 2 dead soldiers for 5 living terrorists was "disproportionate" (in line with their strictures against Israel during the 2006 war).
I think not.

Meanwhile, Israel should suspend all and any "peace talks" until such time as her enemies follow the basic codes of behaviour in relation to soldiers in captivity, namely, access and visitation rights by the Red Cross, in accordance with the Geneva Convention.

In addition, the likes of Kuntar should never be allowed to sit in Israeli jails to be used as bargaining chips.

Ronnie Smith

So complex, as usual. I agree with Melanie but at the same time I understand and sympathise with Ann's point. Also as usual, these things do not happen in a vacuum and we should also note today's reports that the United States is opening diplomatic links with Iran by sending an Under-Secretary of State to take part in the forthcoming talks between the E.U. and the Iranian government. Obviously things have been going on in the background that we know nothing about and the exchange of bodies for prisoners has been part of the current process.

Roslyn Pine

It should be added that the reason Hezbollah launched the 2006 offensive against Israel, was that since the unilateral withdrawal by Israel and her Christian ally, the South Lebanon Army, in 2006, from the security zone protecting Israel's northern border, Hezbollah brazenly broke all the agreements, and installed missile launchers and other military hardware in South Lebanon, with which to terrorise Israel.
This was watched by all the world's great powers, including Israel's "friends", and yet Hezbollah was allowed to continue their hostile activities with impunity.
There lies the weakness at the heart of successive Israeli governments, in not resisting the relentless pressure to make a "peace" which can only lead to war.

"War is deadlier still when disguised as peace".
Claudian. A.D.XIII KAL.AUG.

Michael Medved

Mr. Kennybhoy,

No, I'm not a celebrated Michael Medved the American cinema critic, but rather a humble private person who happens to have the same name. Anyway, if deterrence is acceptable to you only as an ancillary reason, what would be your primary one?

Miranda Rose Smith

This wasn't a blunder-blunder suggests Olmert is stupid. He isn't, just cowardly and self destructive. If he had told the U.N. and Kofi Annan and world opinion to all go fly a kite, Israel would have won the Second Lebanon War. By the way, "kidnap" is a VERB or an ADJECTIVE. The NOUN is "kidnapping."

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Ann: I have lived in Israel
for 22 years and I think this swap was disgusting.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Philip: Did you know that, according to the Wikipedia, George Orwell named Room 101 after a conference room at the BBC Broadcasting House?

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Paul Hill: When did Israel stop possessing moral quality?

Joe Strummer

I don't know about anyone else but to me this exchange shows that Israel are saying to the world that even just two of their respected dead soldiers are worth more than the numerous released alive terrorist scum.

A not so subtle and justified act by Israel.

Arthur Lincoln

Andy Gill
July 17th, 2008 10:02am
"OK, but Israel emerged with great dignity over the exchange. On the other hand, Lebanon's tawdry celebrations on the return of the child-murderer gave the world a vivid image of the depravity and inhumanity of Hezbollah".

Similar scenes have been played in the world media (TV) on numerous occasions in the past. All those world leaders with an ounce of morality know full well the moral difference between Hamas, Hezbollah and Israel, but I have only ever witnessed condemnation of Israel by those same world leaders.

Dorschner

it pains me to say this but i think we are seeing the death rattle of the state of Isreal. they are losing their will.

Paul Freeman

Dear Melanie
In this I think perhaps you are being one-sided. It suggests Ehud Olmert was right to say:

"Nobody else will understand what every Israeli understands well: the concern over the fate of every one of our soldiers is the glue that binds us as a society, and it is this which allows us to survive in a region that is surrounded by enemies and terrorist organizations."

We should not make the mistake of only looking at the reaction of Israel’s enemies. Among its friends, these exchanges by Israel elicit a wonder and an admiration that is extended to no other country. Whether regarding its fallen soldiers and their families or towards Gaza, what other nation repeatedly and despite every provocation puts humanitarian concern above all else?

Today the media may be reporting celebrations in Beirut and the Arab world. But decent people everywhere, even as they join in mourning with the families of Ehud Goldwasser and Eldad Regev while pitying those who know no better than to extol child-killers, are proud and rejoice that Israel stands firm in its Jewish values against evil and barbarism.

And this pride is not nothing. If Ehud Olmert was right also about what holds Israeli society together, then pride is surely the glue which across the world binds Jews and non-Jews in our love and support for Israel. It is that which, despite everything that may be hurled against it, will not let Israel die.

I’m sure you know what I mean.

Kibbutz Boykie

An Israeli member of the Knesset has said -

'None of them will be absolved. Whoever bathes in Jewish blood, whoever attacks the honour and independance of the State of Israel, will not be able to tell their grandchildren anything, because they will never get to that stage. Nasrallah will not die a natural death. The State of Israel will settle its account with him.
He knows this better than we do"

Now un-leash the dogs of retribution.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Dorschner: Olmert & Co. don't have the will to blow their noses, but I hope, pray and believe that there are plenty of Israelis with will left if we can just vote this putrid lot out.

Mike

Simultaneously with news of the corpses for prisoners exchange, we read today from an interview with Angela Godfrey-Goldstein of the 'Israeli Committee Against House Demolitions' that "Olmert is not fulfilling any of the promises made during the Annapolis Conference. The Israeli settlements in the West Bank are still being expanded on an almost daily basis; the restriction on Palestinians' movement is as rigid as ever; and the core issues are being completely ignored. It's no wonder that from a Palestinian point of view, they feel no closer to peace."

Angela Godfrey-Goldstein was speaking in the light of the tactics used by the IDF in an attempt to drive Palestinians away from the Nilin area of the West Bank leaving the field open for more Israeli settlers to take their place.

Naturally this plays into the hands of the Palestinian extremists who are not prepared to sit back and watch their communities collapse.......and so the cycle of violence turns again.

Zkharya

Gabi Ashkenazi, the chief of the IDF supported this move. He is a true soldier's soldier and has been in the forefront of pushing new training regimes for the IDF in urban warfare and the kind of situation one might find oneself in with Hizbullah and Hamas. I do not think this move shows Israel's weakness but her strenghth. The IDF is much more careful about the possibility of kidnapping now. Soon Iron Dome will protect the towns of southern Israel, and, next time Hizbullah tries such a thing, Israel will be ready. And this time she will not care about the world's complaining she is killing too many of the enemy.

Roslyn Pine

Mike.

What is the relevance of the said Angela Godfrey-Goldstein's views on Israeli settlements, to the subject under discussion, other than to deflect attention away from Israel's humanity in contrast to the barbarity of the other side?

Do you ever apply your critical faculties to establishing whether organisations such as the "Israeli Committee against House Demolitions" actually tell the truth?
They do not, and they have a habit of manipulating the facts to fit their own agenda, which is another reason that they only represent the fringe elements of Israeli society.

Your re-cycling of the hoary chestnut that Israel is perpetuating the "cycle of violence", represents, at best, lazy, ignorant thinking.
There is no "cycle of violence".
What happens is that unprovoked acts of violence, always perpetuated by the Palestinian side, eventually provoke a response from the Israelis, but only when the level of tolerance is exceeded, and when there is no other avenue open to Israel to protect her citizens.

And by the way, the lack of peace in the ME has nothing to do with the so-called settlements.
Rather, it has everything to do with the indoctrination and poisoning of young Muslim minds from a very early age to implant the idea that there is no room for Jewish self-determination in supposed Islamic lands.
Read the Hamas Charter. Its intentions are very clear.

Esther

As Israel seems to favor "assymetrical" exchanges, I have a suggestion: every time a terrorist even harms a hair on the heads one of our Israeli brothers and sisters, they (Israel) retaliate "assymetrically": shoot terrorists on sight, take no live prisoners, and bomb them down to hell where they belong.

Perhaps it sounds extreme, but it would in all probability prove highly effective, and consistent with Israel's "assymetric" policy.

Gareth

It is a serious mistake to have terrorists in jail. Those engaged in fighting terrorism should take no prisoners.
The celebrations in Lebanon highlight the savagery of the muslims. Even the Nazis would never consider giving a hero's welcome to a man whose only claim to fame was to kill a four-year old girl.

Rob

Too bad your not "Michael Medved". He hosts the best political talk show in the USA.

Herbert Thornton

After reading Melanie's final paragraph, I read it again, this time substituting "Britain" for "Israel".

It rang even more horrifyingly true and made me ask myself which of the two nations would be the first to fall under the Islamic heel - and I inclined to think it will be Britain.

eh-oop

It's 36 hours or more since the "exchange". Now that Olmert has secured the return of the bodies of soldiers who were lost on his watch - who is anyone to say that judgement call was wrong - he could now resign while keeping any shred of decency he still has to his name. And there's much more than Olmert that stinks to high heaven.

Here's "moderate" Mahmoud Abbas, doctoral thesis titled "The Secret Connection between the Nazis and the Leaders of the Zionist Movement " and Olmert's "partner for peace", congratulating Samir Kuntar's family, while his sidekick Azzam al-Ahmed eulogises Delal Mugrahi, one of the 199 bodies and leader of the 1978 terrorist raid outside Jaffa that hijacked a taxi and two buses, murdering 36 Israelis and wounding scores more, describing her as "leader of a heroic and exemplary operation" and a s a "symbol for the Palestinian women's struggle".

And there's Lebanese President Michel Suleiman, heartily congratulated just a week ago by Nicolas Sarkozy, hailing Kuntar as a "freed hero".

Even a squeak of protest from the French government, from the Americans, from Milliband? With hero worshippers like these as "friends" to rely on, who needs enemies?

Thinkster

@Gareth: Spot on. Tonight, Channel 4 continued to capitulate, even if for just 15 minutes.

ndm

The Amnesty International Annual Report 2008 states:

-- Some 9,000 [Palestinians], including more than 300 children and Palestinians arrested in previous years, remained imprisoned at the end of 2007. More than 900 were held in administrative detention without charge or trial, including some held since 2002. Among those detained were dozens of former ministers in the Hamas-led PA government and Hamas parliamentarians and mayors who were seemingly held to exert pressure on Hamas to release Gilad Shalit, an Israeli soldier captured in 2006 who continued to be held in Gaza by the armed wings of Hamas and the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC). (my emphasis)

I wonder how many of these detainees would have to be executed to satisfy the bloodlust of several of the commenters here. This bloodlust has no place in a civilized society and needs to be smacked down hard. That it has not been is a demonstration of weak moral leadership.

Knut

I expected to see a comment from Patricia praising the courage of the Israeli Govt in carrying out this prisoner exchange.

wonderer

There is a, to me, cryptic statement in the Times today, Thursday: "Significantly, Israel had made it known that it will no longer hold any Hezbollah prisoners - a clear attempt to break this squalid cycle." Does anyone know what that implies or what's going on?

And,on p33 of the same edition is a photo of three Palestinian refugee boys playing at a summer camp by the sea in Gaza City. Although lean, they look impressively healthy and happy for people subjected to systematic persecution and deprivation as alleged.

Dave M

It would seem that, for the Israelis, being a religious people is an issue. For all the criticism you hear of Israel, the truth is they always seemed to me to be very restrained. Just take a look at how America and Russia treated suspected Islamic terrorists. The Russians, for example, took the bodies of the Moscow Theatre terrorists (whom they shot dead in the shoot-out) and ritually buried the bodies in a way that would bar any "entry into paradise with 72 virgins". This came after demands to Moscow made by the terrorists for the return of the bodies for a martyrs' burial. The Russians made pretty sure any Jihadist would understand the bodies of any so-called martyrs would get no Islamic burial in Russia. Quite the opposite, in fact. And let's be honest, terrorist attacks in Russia have lessened. Moreover, BBC journalists and other anti-Israel so-called liberals should consider how Grozniy was bombed, compared with Gaza. The Israelis have carried out precision targeting of suspect sites in Gaza. Moscow, by contrast, flattened Grozniy and had every intention of using vacuum bombs in the process. At any rate, my view on this matter is this: Hamas attacked a group of Israeli soldiers and kidnapped them. Israel took action and made an incursion into Gaza to get them back. Hezbolah factions then became involved, backed by Iran. Iran supplied weapons to fire into Israel, indiscriminately. If ever there was a "causus belli", that is what we had. I believe Israel should have immediately held Iran to account, just as America would have done. I mean, ask yourselves how Bush would have acted if missiles made and supplied by Iran were being fired upon U.S. towns or cities?

Richard

I believe that Israel should begin a new policy. Murdering every leader or figure of these genocide groups.

Elena

"The best course of action to secure the release of Palestinian prisoners is the kidnapping of more Israeli soldiers, Abu Yousef, the military spokesman for An-Nasser Brigades, the Military wing of the Popular Resistance Committees, said in a statement on Thursday." When will it stop?

ahem

Why is this moron Olmert still in office? I thought they were going to get rid of him months ago...

Kerry Cook

The message is clear; any soldier captured now is good dead or alive.
Where is the wisdom Israel?

Eric Green

This analysis underestimates Israel. Lebanon payed a heavy price for the kidnapping of Israeli soldiers. Hizbollah will think nervously before kidnapping anyone. All Lebanon will. Deterrence has not been lost. By all estimates, the Lebanon war was not a loss, but only underperformance. Israelies learn and correct. They calculate within an equation that covers not only winning a battle but the development of the country as a whole. They made their calculations. They decided that giving relief to the families of their fallen was affordable. Kuntar was always a bargaining chip. Letting this murderer return to Lebanon is like returning a piranha into the amazon river. Won't make it more dangerous than it was before.

Mike

Roslyn Pine: I'm flattered, but puzzled, why you would wish to start a debate with me on what you consider is a distraction from the primary thrust of this thread. So here goes...

Your statements...."There is no cycle of violence", and
"the lack of peace in the ME has nothing to do with the so-called settlements" are......shall we say...to be polite....nonsensical!

Not unlike your other comments elsewhere on this thread...it would seem you know very little about Hizbollah and Lebanon, and even less about what is happening on the West Bank...'as we speak'. Like all supporters of Israel 'Right or Wrong', you are in denial, and as a consequence contributing nothing to helping Israel through a very difficult time.

If I'm a little ahead of myself here it's because I've been down this route many times before on Melanie's blog.

However, reverting to the 'Israeli Committee against House Demolitions' read on....

"While supposedly negotiating the end to the Occupation and the emergence of a Palestinian state, Israel has continued to develop a Matrix of Control over the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem through land expropriation, settlement expansion, the construction of exclusively 'Israeli' roads, an economic closure and the creation of controlling 'facts' on the ground"....discuss!

phil

Mike(the original?) I see you have had another fax from Mr fisk -but you are on the wrong thread and have picked on the wrong lady to joust with ,Roslyn actually knows what she is talking about.My first thoughts when I saw you had returned was "what a shameful comment" on such a sad day and particularly when the Israelis had been so "generous" I have not changed my mind-even your friend said how wrongly the hesbollah had behaved .On a day when the whole nation was in mourning for its butchered and kidnapped soldiers you may have shown a little common sense -I really was surprised

This thread has not elicited the large numbers which surprises me, but I see the man with no solutions -ndm-is back to talk nonsense again ,but where is patricia?possibly on a hells angels broomstick convention in never never land .

Mike

Hi Phil: Delighted to see that you now read Fisk, McIntyre et al. Hope you are having a good summer. Let's see what the good lady has to say for herself......hope she doesn't keep me from the pool...presently too gorgeous to sit indoors. Best M.

phil

Well Mike no doubt enjoying the good weather presumably in Beirut -whilst at the pool you will have ample time to contemplate the difference in the morality of the Israelis who returned the most despicable and cowardly murderer in the history of this sad conflict in the best of health ,fattened by good kosher food .contrasting of course with the mutilated bodies of two soldiers captured alive by the animals of hesbollah -To give credence to the ambitions of these beasts demeans you and surely you will realise why no one can treat your comments with any degree of seriousness .

nita

slightly disagree, there are 2 sides and now the world will realize how much israel is doing for peace - if lebanon start taking more soldiers they will be taught a lesson as they have had their opportunity for peace with this deal

Mike

Phil: As an Anglo-Saxon Englishman I hope I share most of my values with those of Israelis, and that is why my expectation of them is always of the highest. In my overseas experience, over many years, I've learned that one has to be sensitive to all cultural relationships from wherever they originate. Therefore, I'm neither shocked or indeed surprised by the celebrations in Beirut the other day. I think one has to be very careful when discussing the comparative morality of different cultures and I wouldn't want to get into it. Finally....I didn't think I had 'given credence to the ambitions'.....presumably those of Hizbollah? What do you mean?

Adam B.

Mike, re your comment "I've learned that one has to be sensitive to all cultural relationships from wherever they originate. Therefore, I'm neither shocked or indeed surprised by the celebrations in Beirut the other day. I think one has to be very careful when discussing the comparative morality of different cultures"... I notice that you don't shy away from making judgements about Israel, but won't make a judgement about lauding a child murderer. Thank you also for showing such sensitivity at a time when Israel is in mourning to spout more anti-Israel nonsense.

phil

Mike as an Anglo Saxon you will be aware of the sacrifices made in the last century to make this world one fit for human beings ,and now what are we seeing being perpetrated by the beasts driving along the same road as the nazis-I saw many newsreels similar to nasrullahs "victory parade",so please do not tell me to be sensitive to their culture -it is not the culture of true Moslems .

You are either deluded or stuck in a mental rut, too proud to back down and admit the bestiality of that culture.Peace can never be obtained with a culture that kills captives and then mutilates corpses after teasing the parents for so long a time ..nasrullah and his henchmen are beneath contempt and it saddens me that you seek to explain them -They do nothing for the cause of the Palestinians either ,no sane government would entertain agreements with a prospective nation that allies itself with the likes of hesbollah or hamas -well back to your pool to think again --and maybe even pray for peace and justice for both the Palestinian people and the Israelis .

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Adam B, great response to Mike, but it seems we are to be blessed with new instalments of his bigoted rubbish, poorly disguised as balanced benevolence. The message he sends out is far more treacherous than that of the most blatant ill-wisher. I've never understood why Phil likes to cosy up to him and afford him a courtesy that he doesn't deserve.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Here's something that I posted yesterday at around noon which has apparently got lost, so I'll try again:

Sorry, Andy, but most of "the world" will pay little heed to Israel's "great dignity" or the "vivid image of the depravity and inhumanity of Hizbollah". There are very many in this country (exemplified by Robert Fisk and his ilk) who crow with delight at every perceived defeat and discomfort of the tiny Jewish nation-state and the prospect of its destruction, which they wish for. All this arises from their deep-seated antipathy towards the Jewish people, which is why they will always cheer for the murderers. Remember the many demonstrators in London at the time of the Lebanese war with their placards declaring: "We are all Hizbollah now !".

Philip

2 dead soldiers=5 live terrorists?

What the hell?!? Obiviously Israel hasn't had a terrorist attack in a while so they're just begging for one!

phil

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)--it didnt look cosy to me -did it really to you? but I prefer to be courteous usually

Mike

Phil...you old devil...your trying to provoke an argument....I know you too well. Regrets but I can't entertain you any further this evening....I'll try my best to-morrow. Meanwhile why not have a look at Melanie's blog on 'Chamberlain'?

Mike

Ben-Tsiyon: Both you and AdamB know very well my position on Zionism, Israel, the Palestinians and the Jewish people.... all very transparent.....nothing treacherous....nothing could be clearer. What you read is what you get....from me. It's entirely up to you how you deal with it. Describing me as a bigot is way off the mark...I think you could do better than that. Rest assured Phil can speak for himself.

Leslie

Paul Freeman 17th 4:16pm

"I'm sure you know what I mean"

Absolutely.

Harvey #2

To Moderators

Not quite sure why my post was not put up .Please advise for next time .

Mike

Phil: Undoubtedly the celebrations on the release of Kuntar who committed such an ugly crime as a boy of 16, made for extremely unpleasant viewing. But would be quite wrong to condemn all Lebanese for taking part in such a celebration.....many felt coerced, no doubt, into attending. For many, however, it was an opportunity to vent their anger and frustration at previous Israeli incursions into Lebanon......the 18 year occupation of the South....the destruction due to the invasion of 2006. But I must hasten to add that none of this justified Kuntar’s crime.......and of being welcomed as a returning hero.
As a Hizbollah propaganda exercise it was successful....it reinforced the sense it was the victor of the 2006 war....it enhanced its standing in Lebanon and elsewhere with the entire Lebanese leadership saluting.......appalling! But I’m sure that many Lebanese echoed the view of Robert Fisk who I believe felt that many Lebanese looking at the images of Kuntar, were asking themselves whether everything they suffered in 2006 was worth it for this criminal.
On the other hand the arrival of the two dead Israeli soldiers was met with the quiet dignity one normally associates with the people of Israel..... and a day of national mourning that we have come to expect.
Both occasions represent ‘closure’ for the events of 2006.

phil

MIKE - its seem,s my remarks to you earlier finally made you see sense -Hisbollah won nothing apart from the opprobrium of every decent thinking human being.even so their descent into the depths of depravity knows no bounds-and they believe they are men of God ?

.As for the Lebanese .I have enough friends amongst them to know that they believe their country has been raped by those people -soon enough even your best friend will no doubt suffer the consequences of living amongst them -from a land described as a a paradise its journey to hell on earth has been led by them -and for what?just sheer hatred and the fooling of decent citizens by a bunch of power hungry "religious" fanatics -The Israelis and Lebanese lived mostly in a calm state side by side for many years until the PLO arrived ,bringing with them pseudo religious fanaticism .

You call the invitation by the Christian Lebanese an incursion ,you know that is nonsense ,and as for hisbollah being the victors in 2006.even you cant think that is true -is not being obliterated a victory ?is bringing about the destruction of large parts of your country a winning strategy -I suspect even hitler eventually realised that it was not .All this in order to capture and mutilate two soldiers .If people like your friend fisk had enough sense to point his acolytes in the direction of peace instead of hatred and destruction the people of both countries would have a future for their children ,rather than the endless stoking of fires to ensure it continues.By your own admission you think many on the streets were made to turn out -memories of the nazis?

You might perform a more valuable piece of work by telling your friend some home truths rather than sitting at the font of all nonsense -at least it would be a start if you used your brain rather than his .maybe even our friend Ben Tsyon will approve -well probably not !

Mike

Phil: I think I can just about make sense of your opening and second paragraphs, but for the life of me I simply can't understand the rest of your post.

'You call the invitation by the Christian Lebanese an incursion'......what is the relevance of that in the context of our chat? What are you trying to say?

You may not see this Phil.....but your whole post is just a rant....how am I suppposed to respond when I can't understand what I'm dealing with? I take care to try and express myself clearly...why, on this occasion, can't you do the same?

servan

This was sad, sad news for me to digest. espefcially releasing the animal who killed
a father and his 4 year daughter. what a sad moment!
I think israelis have gone mad!

Leslie

If terrorism is a response to "the occupation,"what would you call these acts of terrorism prior to "the occupation"?
http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/Facts+About+Israel/Israel+in+Maps/194-1967-+Major+Terror+Attacks.htm

phil

Mike forget it you just do not want to understand -I wrote in anglo saxon didnt I ?you only want to understand the Arabic translation -edited by fisk .

Mike

Phil: Sad. BiBi

IAN BANNER

I totaly agree with you Melanie,I think Israel has made a huge blunder,I hope sometime in the future Justice catches up with thi child murdering terrorist(one way or another)GOD BLESS ISRAEL.

KateA

I am in sympathy with Melanie's view here, yet, whilst perhaps a tragic strategic mistake, Israel has, in this act, bringing home her dead, has shown herself true to the essential purpose for which she exists.

Until the coffins appeared, there was still 'hope'; hope that 'intelligence' was wrong that perhaps ONE of them had survived. The Israeli anthem, after all, says od lo aveda tikvateinu - "Our hope is not yet lost".

The act, confirms that Israel is about hope, about life, love and keeping faith. Contrast that commitment to Jewish children (alive or dead) with videos of mothers strapping on suicide belts so their children might massacre innocent civilians, or the wish to the mother of the female terrorist that her body be left in Israel as a claim to territory!!

Like disengagement from Gaza (a horrifying, costly mistake too) we can only hope that this is a further lesson learned. Disengagement has proved, once and for all, to Israel and the world that Hamas and Fatah have no interest in a Palestinian state. Land for peace simply brings more attacks on Israeli civilians. Peace is not possible, and I doubt it ever will be, because Muslims love death more than they love their children; Islamic brainwashing teaches earthly 'superiority' and violence as the road to Paradise so, they will happily sacrifice their own children to the annihilation of the Jewish people.

What we have seen (not glimpsed but witnessed) again, is a VOID. The void between all civilized cultures and the barbaric nature of Islam. Whatever the errors, I personally, would choose to be of an Israeli/Jewish sensibility than of a Palestinian. It is my firm belief that the latter will bring about their own self-destruction. That the majority in Israel will learn these lessons well; that fortitude, love and courage will prevail. Israel will be saved precisely because it is NOT about a frenzied death cult and celebrations of hatred.

KateA

Mike - Some time ago I made a decision to ignore your uninformed, self-referential drivel but the 'latest', in this context, requires a scalpel.

I actually have a smidgen of respect for up-front bigots. What is despicable is a self-deluded, puffed-up ego masquerading as 'honest broker'. Your text (over many threads) is risible in its transparent bias and cultural cringe. That you continue patronising other contributors with euphemistic doublespeak and 'taqiyya' is revelatory, but only of huge personal grandiosity.

E.g. "my position on Zionism, Israel, the Palestinians and the Jewish people.... all very transparent ... nothing treacherous ....nothing could be clearer."

True with one exception - "treacherous". Your language and tone drip treachery. You have previously made clear your belief that Israel should never have existed; you miss no opportunity to meticulously present 'Fiskian' examples of Israeli bad faith or "atrocities"; you insult the intelligence of readers by claiming affinity with Israeli/Jewish "values" and use the generous, thoughtful and innately courteous 'phil' as a 'foil' to your inflated intellectual superiority.

Here again [ref. settlements] you expose the reality of bad faith and ill will, in a context where a TRULY CLEVER 'plant' would have the wit to play dumb or even fake empathy! But no, instead the posturing continues and verifiable atrocities by Muslim/Arab terrorists are 'minimised' by euphemism.

".. Kuntar who committed such an ugly crime as a boy of 16"!

WHAT Boy? Ah yes, Muslim terrorists are just indulging a bit of boyish excess! But, IDF soldiers around the same age, are in a past post of yours, 'legitimate targets'! Wise up Mike, this is a debating forum for adults. A 16/17 year old is a young MAN who, unless mentally retarded, knows precisely what he is doing and why.

Hideous pre-mediated MURDER is not on a par with mugging an old lady to steal her pension; THAT is an "ugly crime". Premeditated murder of innocents is an abomination in the eyes of any civilized society - but clearly, NOT for Lebanese or in the culturally relativist world of Mike.

Indeed no, according to the honest broker, it is "... wrong to condemn all Lebanese [i.e. those who cavorted in the streets] for taking part in such a celebration". Not one word on the "wrong" of murdering prisoners of war, or mutilating the bodies, or dancing with glee at their deaths. Dear me no; just another "Palestinian right of resistance" eh?

For me Mike, your 'cover' was blown a long time ago - around statements like "legitimate targets" and "right of resistance". Something to do perhaps, with a lifetime of research and analysis - judging style, content, tone, precision of language and authenticity - makes it hard to 'gloss' such overt falsity.

Roslyn Pine

Mike.

I have no desire to debate with you, but I am concerned that lies about Israel should not be allowed to masquerade as the truth.

First, Lebanon.
As a British Anglo Saxon, you must surely be concerned as to the fate of the Christians there, in what was until recent times a predominantly Christian country.
They have been systematically cleansed from their own country since 1970, when the Lebanon was the ONLY country in the ME to give sanctuary to the Palestinians who were thrown out by King Hussein in Black September. (By the way, more Palestinians were killed in that operation than by Israel in its entire history.)
The Palestinians repaid the Lebanese generosity by islamising and radicalising the country, and Arafat used it as a base from which to terrorise Israel. Don't you know that successive Lebanese Christian elected presidents have been assassinated by Syria/Iran/Hezbollah? One of these killings triggered the Sabra/Chatilla atrocity, perpetrated by Phalangists outraged by the murder of their Christian president.
It is accepted and understood by those knowledgeable in Lebanese affairs that Siniora's government is a puppet regime in which the mafia Hezbollah pulls the strings and calls the tune.
Just recently Siniora tried to defy it but very quickly backed down. Hezbollah runs the country with an iron fist and constitutes an unelected dictatorship behind a fig leaf of a sham democracy.
I suggest that in order to really understand what has happened to Lebanon, you listen to Brigitte Gabriel, a Christian Lebanese journalist who was brought up there and has rather more insight than someone like yourself. (Click onto YouTube).
As to Hezbollah, read the distinguished journalist Harold Evans (past editor of the Times) who wrote a classic piece on CIF in response to the obscene "We are all Hezbollah now" Stop the War Coalition march that took place in London.(See CIF Aug. 8, 2006.)

I remain unimpressed by your quotes from "Israelis against House Demolitions" in which all reference to context is ommitted. For example, they do not say that settler-only roads came about because cars with Israeli number plates were regularly targeted by snipers resulting in fatalities.
I am more impressed that Israel is the only country in the region that allows numerous such groups to flourish and disseminate their hostile propaganda----now that's a real democracy!

You seem to be troubled by the settling of Jews in the disputed territories, but isn't it racist to prevent people living where they wish on account of their ethnicity, the more so when the connection of those people to the land goes back thousands of years?

Isn't the real purpose of your post to deflect attention from the depravity and barbarity of Hezbollah that this latest obscene exchange has highlighted for all to see, and to ascribe to it legitimacy for its actions?
You obviously empathise with Hezbollah.
As Harold Evans eloquently wrote in his classic CIF piece, such people are either profoundly ignorant or have a depraved indifference to human life.
Which is it in your case, or is it a mixture of both?

Mike

KateA: You've written a most eloquent and passionate post in defence of all that you hold dear.......if ever I need
representation before a court of law then very definitely I would want you on my side.

It's a pity that we are unable to have this debate face to face..... so much misunderstanding arises from what is written......so much can be taken out of context in the attempt to show an 'opponent' is in the wrong.

I think I have to leave it there Kate....but as an Arab business associate once said to me...'In this part of the world never write to me if you can 'phone, and never 'phone if you can come and see me, for how shall I know what is in your heart unless I can see it in your eyes?

Have a good summer......be back in the Autumn hopefully with the US Presidential Election put to bed. You will already know whose side I'm on.

Mike

Moderator(s): I don't wish to take you away from Royal Birkdale, or worse your breakfast, but some 3 hours or so ago I responded to a post by KateA which has yet to appear. Would you kindly publish it please so I too can go and watch Greg Norman...who happens to be a hero of mine.

Best Wishes,

phil

Kate A --WOW!! you certainly told Mike the score -I have tried over the months to discuss various matters with him but as you have seen he never answers questions and also ignores facts -I have come to the same conclusion as you that a state of tacquiya exists and that I just waste my time .Actually I now believe that much of his material is sent by his friend Fisk .The last straw for me was defending the show of glee from the streets of Lebanon on the arrival of the worst murderer in my memory -even his reply to you is obfuscation ,although I think he really wants to be a "good guy" but cannot break with the heritage of Fiskism- so endeth this episode -best regards phil

KateA

Dear Phil - You remind me always, of an adored teacher. Despite - or maybe because of - surviving the transports, Terezin, Auschwitz, Stutthof and a death march, her gentle courtesy (consideration of the Other as vulnerable and human) remained in place.

I am not of that calibre. I do not give benefit of doubt to 'useful idiots' or the smugly ignorant.
The essence of useful debate is substance. Mike offers NOTHING of substance, no meaningful analysis or even debating skills. He asserts from a position of 'assumed' superiority - letting us know he is on intimate terms with Saudi private jet owners and, above, "Arab business" men. He is patently pro-Arab/Muslim but when challenged with alternative and verifiable factual evidence, he goes 'on the run'.

That does not inspire confidence. Frankly, I doubt the veracity of the implied 'friendship' with the notoriously curmudgeonly Fisk. Regular dips into 'the master's' newspaper columns will provide ALL the 'insider' knowledge insinuated by Mike. After all, one can claim to be ANYTHING or anybody when protected by the anonymity of a blog.

Despite admiring Melanie Phillip's forensic intellect since her Guardian days and the rare exchange of emails, I am neither deluded nor desperate enough to designate that contact as 'friendship'.

Bottom line, phil: you are wasting time and energy in tolerating barely disguised insults from such a slippery closed mind. Regards K

Adam B.

KateA and Roslyn, BRAVO! Mike has always spoken out of both sides of his mouth, dusting the most poisonous sentiments in sugary language to try and disarm. He reminds me of the serpent in the garden of Eden. A fabulously written reply from each of you!

phil

Kate A thank you so much that was a beautiful thing to say and I am touched by it -and on this post I will say no more so as not to spoil those lovely sentiments -regards phil

Mike

Roslyn Pine: I wouldn't wish to leave this thread before trying to respond to your comments on Lebanon........with which I find no real disagreement. I lived in Baabda in the hills above Beirut in the 1970's so I have a fair experience of the Lebanese, their politics and how they view the world.

As you know Hizbollah emerged from the debris of the 2006 Israel-Lebanon conflict as a pivotal player in to-days Middle East and I think it would be wrong for this factual recognition to be interpreted as empathy with its policies. Since so little is known about it in the West....who supports it....how does it operate....what does it really want..... could it disarm and become a purely political party...I thought most of the answers would be found in Judith Palmer Harik's book 'Hizbollah - The Changing Face of Terrorism' which I've just acquired. Hence I would far prefer reading this book by the pool than sitting here indoors typing this on a gorgeous summer afternoon... I'm sure you will understand.

Thank you for refrerring me to Brigitte Gabriel and Harold Evans....I'll catch up with them in due course......I guess that on the West Bank etc etc we shall just have to disagree.

Chaim

PM Olmert has signed the death warrant for any unfortunate Israeli soldiers captured or kidnapped by Israel's enemies by showing a willingness to trade live vicious murderers in order to retrieve even very dead IDF bodies - brave heroes though they be. They now have no incentive to keep prisoners alive and treat them humanely. The terrorist gameplan will now be: seek, capture, torture, interrogate, and kill with impunity and cruelty. Then for the clincher, swap the bodies back for the return of more live terrorists to close the circle who will again seek, capture...

As for welcoming Kuntar as a hero, only sub-barbarians could honour a brutal, cold blooded child murderer in such a fashion.
Chaim

Mike

Phil: for the record.
1. 'he never answers questions'...not true. I have a copy of all my posts on this site. If there are any of your questions unanswered kindly indentify which and I'll do my best.
3. 'Actually I now believe that much of his material is sent by his friend Fisk'...not true..I read his column in the 'Independent' like thousands of others..including you. I've also read his books. Other than that I have no contact. He is not a personal friend of mine.
4. 'The last straw for me was defending the show of glee....' Please re-read my post. I end the paragraph with the word 'appalling'. You should have realised that when I described the whole scene as a Hizbollah propaganda exercise, that is precisely what it was. Obviously it was intended to play well in the 'Arab Street'.....I found it appalling!
5. I asked you 'You call the invitation by the Christian Lebanese an incursion'......what is the relevance of that in the context of our chat?'......I would still like to know.

Finally, for quite some time now you have tried to persuade me to walk hand in hand with you....stand full square with you...in your belief and conviction that Palestinians and Arabs are always in the wrong and that Israel and Israelis' are always in the right. I can't do that.