With friends like these...

Sally S

With the 30 million pledge in his absence you certainly feel Browns presence, how so is the question, of course... the comments should be most interesting.

Roslyn Pine

The only way to that peace may have a chance is to stop the vile propaganda taught in Arab kindergardens, schools and universities, which instils a poisonous hatred against Jews.
This must be addressed and must be contingent on any further financial aid being given.
All the rest is commentary.

BJ

Brown is obviously right that the illegal Separation Wall built on the West Bank is a major factor in the economic dislocation of the Palestinian Territories.
However, the economic situation is a by-product of the occupation rather than something that can be tackled independently. £30m of aid is in the circumstances an irrelevnt gesture.
I remember Gaza Airport was built with EU money only for the Israelis to bulldoze it. Why waste more of out taxpayers money without tackling the underlying issue which is of course the continued presence of the Israeli military and the illegal settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.
I note that Melanie Phillips erroneously refers to "disputed" territories. I have to point out again that there is no dispute in international law. The simple fact is that these territories belong to the Palestinians, as has been confirmed by the International Court of Justice.

Roslyn Pine

BJ.

And I have to point out that ignorance is still ignorance, no matter how authoritatively articulated by those who manipulate the facts to fit their theories.
It would take several pages to demolish your nonsense, but as you mention the hallowed International Court of Justice, it was one Stephen Schwebel who actually headed that institution, who ruled unambiguously that it was Israel who had superior rights to the title of the West Bank over those of Jordan.(Following the 6 Day War.)
Palestine has never existed as any kind of entity, so that your statement is absurd.

Sally S

Very much so, and intelligence is still intelligence, however unarticulated it may potentially be. Responses should be interesting.

Adam B.

BJ, you may wish to ponder the following facts, as detailed in an article by Douglas Davis in The Spectator (14 January 2006):

“When Arafat returned to Gaza in 1993, per capita income for Palestinians was running at about $3000, dwarfing that of their neighbours in Egypt, Jordan and Syria. The figure now stands at $934, with foreign aid making up well over half of that amount.
The collapse of the economy coincided with Israel’s decision to shut the door to Palestinians entering Israel in an attempt to stop the suicide-bombers killing its citizens. The immediate cost for the Palestinians was 100,000 jobs….”

In light of this, is it not more accurate to say that it is the terror intifada that has been the greatest cause of poverty amongst the Palestinians, and not the Israeli presence? To claim the Israeli presence has caused the Palestinians to be poor is demonstrably untrue. Surely it is understandable that Israel closes its border to potential suicide bombers when suffering an onslaught of attacks.

john doe

When the State of Israel was reborn in 1948 c.e., the "Palestinians" did not exist yet, the Arabs had still not discovered that "ancient" people. They were too busy with the purpose of annihilating the new Sovereign State and did not intend to create any Palestinian entity, but only to distribute the land among the already existing Arab states. They were defeated. They attempted again to destroy Israel in 1967, and were humiliated in only six days, in which they lost the lands that they had usurped in 1948. In those 19 years of Arab occupation of Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip, neither Jordan nor Egypt suggested creating a "Palestinian" state, since the still non-existing Palestinians would have never claimed their alleged right to have their own state.

"There are no differences between Jordanians, Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. We are all part of one nation. It is only for political reasons that we carefully underline our Palestinian identity... yes, the existence of a separate Palestinian identity serves only tactical purposes. The founding of a Palestinian state is a new tool in the continuing battle against Israel".
- Zuhair Muhsin, military commander of the PLO and member of the PLO Executive Council -

Adam B.

Another point BJ: as you know no doubt, billions of dollars in aid have disappeared into private bank accounts, with an estimated $10 billion owned by Arafat alone when he was alive. This is a staggering amount of money! Does this not contribute to poverty? Yet the main focus of your condemnation remains relentlessly aimed at Israel. It is also sobering to know that the Palestinians have received more aid in recent years than the whole of sub-Saharan Africa, despite the levels of poverty not being remotely comparable.

john doe

"Surely it is understandable that Israel closes its border to potential suicide bombers when suffering an onslaught of attacks."

Sadly, for many,it is not understandable at all. Of course to a sane mind, it is. But for a twisted, Jew hating,wilfully-uninformed, history denying and BBC indoctrinated mind this understanding is out of reach.

Terry

Let us just accept that the arabs and islamonazis don't want peace. Period. They want Holocaust 2 and the annihilation of the Jewish state. The antidote to this is for the west to deny any support for the pretend palestinian project. Eventually, the modern nazis will fight Israel and then they can be dealt with permanently. The shame is that innocent Jews will have to do the fighting and dying once more, as the west plunges headlong into appeasement of the modern nazis.

Jenna

"...prosperity=peace in our time with evangelical zeal." Surely that's the only message Blair-Brown ever had for anybody - ergo the bits of paper they keep waving in our faces. Those 2 They don't need any armour; why should anyone? They must have the thickest skulls on the planet; insulated against everything but the eUSSR.

Michael B

Defensible Borders for a Lasting Peace is a solid place to begin some serious inquiries.

Obama has been lately voicing admiration for the putative or so-called "realist" school of political science and foreign policy analysis, the same school Walt & Mearsheimer are known to stand in, the same school of thought that James Baker and G H W Bush stood in, more or less. And he seems to be articulating his appreciation for that school, at least in substantial measure, because it doesn't bother itself with "moral" considerations.

Not so good.

Of course, if it represented an approach which sought to discard superficial moralistic pretensions and overreach, that could readily be applauded. But when the baby is thrown out with the bath water.

Not so good.

jose garcia

“When Arafat returned to Gaza in 1993, per capita income for Palestinians was running at about $3000, dwarfing that of their neighbours in Egypt, Jordan and Syria. The figure now stands at $934, with foreign aid making up well over half of that amount.
The collapse of the economy coincided with Israel’s decision to shut the door to Palestinians entering Israel in an attempt to stop the suicide-bombers killing its citizens. The immediate cost for the Palestinians was 100,000 jobs….”

In light of this, is it not more accurate to say that it is the terror intifada that has been the greatest cause of poverty amongst the Palestinians, and not the Israeli presence? To claim the Israeli presence has caused the Palestinians to be poor is demonstrably untrue. Surely it is understandable that Israel closes its border to potential suicide bombers when suffering an onslaught of attacks."

come on let's not allow the facts to cloud a good theory

it is all israel fault !!!!!!, saint palestinians ;)

Judith

The Saudi's make over $500 BILLION PROFIT every year while holding the West hostage to their oil cartel...why don't they foot the bill for the Palestinian Arabs? The Arabs could buy every Gazan his own villa on some of the 99% of the land they own(compared to Israel's less than 1%, New jersey size, land in the area.)

In addition, it's high time to rid Gaza of the UN Refugee support. Only the Palestinian Arabs get to call themselves refugees every new generation, exponentially adding to every subsequent generation. By universal standards, where other nations only count the directly affected generation, today's "refugees" would be closer to 60,000 than the millions they now claim.

Enough already, Israel conquered a barren land & made it bloom...for that reason alone there is no contest on ownership...as is the case w/ any other state in the world.

Nice Jewish Girl

Oh, goody - more millions in foreign aid or the Palestinians. Why aren't their oil-rich Arab brethren helping them? And where will the money go? To improve living conditions and infrastructure? I doubt it. More likely it's to line pockets, go into offshore bank accounts and buy a few more Kassams to use against Israel.

Ann

Brown is an ignorant, silly prat. Let's face this fact once and for all. In this he is not alone, of course: witness the idiots who screech that the security fence is 'illegal'.

Sally S

"Brown is an ignorant, silly prat." I wouldn't call him ignorant though seemingly silly at times, is he drawing attention away from home again? I wonder?

Sally S

I would call him incompetent on many a past action though, but not ignorant on this occassion.

Kibbutz Boykie

so your gordon brown intends to address the Knesset:

When Brown steps up to the Knesset podium, what ought to be uppermost in the collective British memory is that Britain was the power which, on the eve of the Holocaust, published its White Paper denying haven to desperate Jewish refugees from Hitler's Europe. The gates of Palestine closed. The gates of hell stayed open.

Jerusalem Post - 21/07/08

Roy

You would think the prime minister would make some effort to get to the truth of the matter. If some mere mortals who follow Melanie's writings and contribute to these columns can get "it": why can't he? Do they just listen to the BBC, and a collaborating newspaper or two? Are their wives and fellow conversationalists as ill informed? Are they dumb, daft, and underdeveloped? Or do they just have the wrong genes, end of story? The ones who lead the nation and should lead in their intellectual prowess. One can get better more down to earth, thought provoking insights at the local pub.

Janine

In Gordon Brown, the Great Dance of Denial has a new exponent even more absurd in his posturing than that of the ludicrous forerunner of Tony Blair.

It's the jihad, stupid – not the economy.

Marcus from the USA

Mad Mel said:
"More aid has gone to the Palestinians than to any other people on the planet."

Mel's ingnorance on display once again.

Israel recieves more aid per capita than any other nation in the world. Keep in mind how Israel likes to simulataneously claim that its succesful economically, and all too willing to accept American handouts.

And with the money Israel recieves, weapons of death and destruction are at the top of the shopping list for the Jewish State.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

We (all so-called "acolytes" of Mel Phillips)should really give up trying to persuade these Israel-bashing bigots to look at the truth. They're not necessarily unintelligent (as I noted even way back in my grammar school days among the bigots many moons ago) or ignorant. They're just not interested in the truth, because it interferes with those prejudices to which they are already predisposed. They know when they are not apprised of all the facts and choose to keep it that way. It's called "treasured ignorance".

Frank Pulley

We are watching the death throes of a dying government and it is changing its last will and testament daily in the hope that promises will stave off its demise.

Gordon Brown is watching a lifetime's ambitions going down the drain and is panicking. He is a very dangerous wounded animal. When will someone from his own party put him down. They have the only weapon available (for the next two years, anyway). After that the electoral mincer can reduce him to fodder for the dogs, but he can wreak havoc in the meantime in international affairs if yesterday's outburst is anything to go by.

Frank Pulley

He also speaketh with forked tongue:
http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/Politics/Iranian-Nuclear-Warning-Gordon-Brown-Issues-Sanction-Ultimatum-At-Knesset-Speech/Article/200807315047566?&lid=NEWS_TAB_PM_SLAMS_ABHORRENT_IRAN_THREAT&lpos=TABCONTENT

Sharon

Well said Melanie. Ronald Cohen may have made a lot of money, but he certainly is totally uneducated when it comes to the Arabs. Arabs own 50% of the world's oil reserves and yet their people are poor. Ronald Cohen does not seem to wonder why. He should not be a government adviser any more than Bart Simspon should and any more than Gordon Brown should be Prime Minister of the UK. What about delivering to them each a copy of "Eurabia: the Euro-Arab Axis" by Bat Ye'or - that should give them food for thought!

Si, N

Well said Marcus - though it will be wholly lost on the barbarians who slavishly worship at the feet of this crazy Phillips woeman.

About the separation wall - we've just passed the 4th anniversary of the WCJ ruling on the illegality of the wall and the attendant creeping occupation - remember, the whole world voted on that - remarkably, even the dissenting American representative, Justice Burgenthal stated that the wall was illegal, and thus, the land on which it is being constructed is illegally occupied. Can the haridANN or any other of you fantastically clueless melunits please point me in the direction of a counter ruling - one that isn't merely a further demonstration of Israel's demented disdain for global opinion.

Err….no, I thought not.

Bleat on.

Sharon

Marcus
Isreal gets loan guarentees from the US, not aid. Aid = free cash in hand with no paybacks. Loan guarentees mean that the cash has to be paid back - by Israel of course! And yes Israel is the fastest growing economy in the world, and yes it is derived from medical expertise, farming and agriculture, literature and of course High Tech in which it is 2nd only to Silicone Valley in the US.

phil

BJ you have really started something here hav.nt you

""Brown is obviously right that the illegal Separation Wall built on the West Bank is a major factor in the economic dislocation of the Palestinian Territories.""

It is of course nonsense as you probably are well aware -the problem for the Palestinians started when the Arabs declared war on the fledgling state in 1948-everything else has just followed from that -why make these ludicrous statements other than to cause trouble .or was that your intention.? If those who care
what happens to these two peoples cut out the mischief , perhaps we would see progress towards a better life for all

"

Alex Bensky

In the seventies the GNP of the disputed territories was among the fastest-rising in the world. The Palestinian lot was improving by virtually every imaginable measurement--education, infant mortality, access to electricity and drinkable water, etc.--after two decades of general neglect by Jordan.

The Palestinians threw it all away. Their destruction of greenhouses in Gaza within twenty-four hours of the Israeli withdrawal is deeply symbolic.

HumeanBeing

Interesting quote from Zuheir Mohsen, john doe. According to Wikipedia and other sources, it comes from a March 1977 interview in the Dutch newspaper Trouw.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zuheir_Mohsen

Leslie

Ben-Tsiyon 11:24am
I think you are right,it can only be prejudice,and the cure is a change of heart.

Adam B.

BJ, in light of the figures I have provided, would you like to revise your statement that "the economic situation is a by-product of the occupation"?

KateA

It is always informative when the prejudiced parade their stupidity. 'Marcus' (the anti-Israel bigot) 'from the USA says': "Israel recieves more aid per capita than any other nation in the world."

Is that so? Could we have some factual, independent and verifiable evidence to corroborate the assertion?

In any event, strategic USA aid to Israel, was explained by President Reagan in 1979:

"The fall of Iran has increased Israel's value as perhaps the only strategic asset in the region on which the United States can rely. . . . Israel's strength derives from the reality that her affinity with the West is not dependent on the survival of an autocratic or capricious ruler. Israel has the democratic will, national cohesion, technological capacity and military fibre to stand forth as America's trusted ally."

That is not to say that the Palestinian Authority 'lost out'. Over the last 12 years, USA contributed a total of $2,614,000,000 to the PA. In 2005, President Bush also used his authority to provide an extra $50 million in direct assistance.

Since the end of 2000, Arab states have transferred to the PA monthly financial aid of $45 million (since April 2002 this sum was increased to $55 million).

The European Union (EU) transfers to the PA approximately $9 million monthly. By the end of 2001, the Palestinians had received $4 billion from the EU (the figure is now closer to $5.5 billion) since the 1993 Oslo agreements.

Over the years 2005/2006, Palestinians received International Aid to the tune of:
$534,527,040 (2005)
$447,193,331(2006)
[See: The United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Middle East (UNRWA), "Finances" section]!

Forget about Israel - Israel is a democracy. Whether they use aid for defence or provision for immigrants, or infrastructure, there is accountability and transparency.

The really BIG question IS: what have the so-called leaders of the so-called Palestinian 'nation' DONE thus far, to improve the lot of their people? Where has all the aid money gone? Little wonder the Egyptian Arafat was worth $10 billion when he died.

FinanceDoc

Yes, there are illegal settlements in the "Occupied Palestinian Territories" -- they're named Ramallah and Nablus and Jenin and Qalqilya and Tulkarm.

Their populations consist of squatters who descended from those who came from the Arabian Peninsula in the 8th century or later, invading and colonizing Jewish lands.

Or they are the descendants of those who came in the late 19th and early 20th centuries from Egypt and what are today Syria and Jordan seeking work in an area made productive by Jewish entrepreneurship, innovation, capital investment, and toil.

The settlements are indeed illegal and an affront to all genuine humanists who seek justice in the Middle East.

Those who invaded, colonized, and presently squat must return to their native home -- Arabia -- or one of the other 21 regional states the Arabs have conquered and now control.

mckenzie

It's all about mutual hatred, the rest will be history.

Looking forward to Iran being erased off the face of the world.

Marcus from the USA

Uh Sharon, the United Arab Emirates is generally considered the fastest growing economy in the world.

Annual economic growth for the UAE is about a little over 20%. In comparison to other rapidly growing economies, China's growth is about 13% a year and India's is about 9%.

Sadly the US averages an annual 3% growth, although we are very likely in a recession (negative economic growth).

As for "successful" Israel, can you name any product you use made in Israel? A lot of products I use from pens to TV's were made in China, some in Korea, but none in Israel.

Can you name what kinds of cars Israel makes? The US, Japan, Germany and Sweden make many. Even Pakistan and Iran make cars, but Israel make none.

The truth is, Israel has only one invention/product to its credit; the Uzi submachine gun.
The preferred weapon of crime czars, drug lords, and petty, tyrant dictators alike.

Thank you Israel, NOT!!!

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Marcus, much of what you use that was made in China or Korea was developed in Israel. A few minutes research on your part would confirmk this, if you truly cared to know. These inventions include (per http://realisrael.wordpress.com/category/inventions/) "instant messaging (ICQ), firewall security software, Intel wireless computer chips, numerous medicines, and miniature video camera capsules to examine internal organs. Other Israeli inventions: the cell phone (invented by Motorola, with it’s largest R&D center being in Israel), most of the Windows NT operating system, voice mail technology, and VOIP technology.

More Israeli patents are registered in the US than from Russia, India, and China combined, despite the enormous population disadvantage (about 7 million in Israel vs. 2.5 billion combined in the other 3)."

Or per http://www.newsoftheday.com/ "Scientists at the University of Tel Aviv in Israel have found a way to construct efficient photovoltaic cells costing at least a hundred times less than conventional silicon based devices, and with similar or better energy conversion efficiency. The reactive element in the researchers' patent pending device is genetically engineered proteins using photosynthesis for production of electrical energy." and
"Israeli researchers have successfully created new heart muscle with a built-in blood supply by using human embryonic stem cells. The Technion-Israel Institute of Technology scientists say they new development could now make possible the replacement of tissue damaged in heart attacks. It is the first time the researchers have created a three-dimensional cardiac tissue with blood vessels." and "An Israeli biotech company has developed banana plants that are completely resistant to pathogenic nematodes, which are parasitic organisms that normally damage the plants and their fruit." and "Scientists at the Weizmann Institute of Science in Rehovot, Israel, have devised a scheme that gets round the problem of dangerous and expensive hydrogen infrastructure, and makes possible 100% green cars that emit only water from their tailpipe. By reacting water with the element boron, their system produces hydrogen that can be burnt in an internal combustion engine or fed to a fuel cell to generate electricity. The only by-product is boron oxide, which can be removed from the car, turned back into boron, and used again. What's more, they plan to do this in a solar-powered plant that is completely emission-free."

There's lots more, but none of it will matter to you or to anyone whose ignorance and prejudice leads them to view Israel as an irredeemable and illegitimate entity.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Is Mr. Brown unaware that the terrorist attacks against Israel preceded by decades Israel's possession of Gaza and the West Bank? And that the terror attacks from those areas preceded the checkpoints? Don't bother pointing it out to BJ or Marcus, who won't believe it anyway. Using the checkpoints as a justification for further terror attacks is like the playground bully who claims that the reason he is beating his victim to a pulp is because the victim raised his hands to defend himself when the bully first punched him.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Thanks, FinanceDoc, for posting a very accurate reminder of substantially similar historical facts I have referred to in past postings. Let's hope for an eventual end to this illegal Arab occupation of the Land of Israel.

Oh, and while I'm about it, as his latest posting shows, Marcus from the USA is the perfect example (American variety) of the wilfully ignorant bigots I referred to in my earlier posting today.

Harvey

Any chance of getting a disobliging remark about Brown's sponsorship of the Jewish National Fund past moderation?

Just wondered - no luck so far.

phil

for MARCUS the buffoon who continues to demean the USA

"As for "successful" Israel, can you name any product you use made in Israel? A lot of products I use from pens to TV's were made in China, some in Korea, but none in Israel"

yes we all can -common sense .love , compassion .fruit technology .medicines that keep bums like you alive -IT and weapons to keep you out -will that do for starters?

Kate A-you will be relieved to see I am not always so courteous to idiots :)

phil

Ahad H I don't think the Israelis have yet managed to produce a product to manage a pathogenic nematode such as marcus nor have they found a way to deal with the resilience of his pal SI ,N (aptly named ).no matter how many times he is proved wrong he keeps coming back-perhaps a new pesticide would help .Maybe when they need the Israeli heart muscle they will crawl in and beg ,provided always the Israelis have invented a brain to inhabit their bodies to tell them how sick they are -nothing has yet come from China that can do that ,and I have endless admiration for the abilities of the Chinese.That might be even beyond both technologies

Kate A ,s always learned remarks will of course have stumped them but marcus will be able to employ his Chinese rubber to erase her post .

FinanceDoc

Hello Ben-Tsiyon and Ahad Ha'amoratzim. Coincidentally, I noticed this on Haaretz today: http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1004086.html

Yes, I'm all too aware of the species Marcus bigotus stupidis. They are commonly seen in The Guardian's CiF section but can occasionally be spotted here as well.

Adam B.

Marcus, you are the worst sort of ignoramus - you shout it from the rooftops. Your computer from which you write your drivel has components made and developed in Israel, as has your mobile phone. If you ever take any medicines, one of them has probably been developed in Israel. How many products do you have that are made in Denmark, a country of similar population to that of Israel? How many products from the African continent do you use? Why are you going on about cars?In Britain, we have no domestic car industry. What exactly is your point, assuming you have one?

Adam B.

The absurdity of the posts of Marcus and SiN, devoid of facts or coherent argument just reaffirm how hate driven these Israel bashers are. For them, facts and reality are irrelevant, just as long as they can air their sheer unadulterated hatred. They hurl accusations around, and when they are cornered through the evidence presented, they run off to find a new accusation. Their hatred and irrationality is evident in the violent language they use. It is truly astonishing. They are in fact sick.

Si, N

A dumB's twittering on about violent language again - yet all the while he calls for war, more war and yet more bloody war - one wonders, how big the corpse pile to satisfy a barbarian like him?

Ian G

Ben Tsiyon, and others, may I remind you that Judeo-Christianity is in the business of redemption. The possibility of change and renewal is in the Tenakh and the New Testament. This is why we have to keep talking to those who hate us. Not all are wilfully ingnorant, some are genuinely deceived and out of both groups could come the truly repentant. We do not need to be fools, and we certainly need to recognise when we are casting pearls before swine and move on, but abuse will win no friends and only serve to harden hearts.

I, too, have despaired of arguing with these people, but in fora such as these we have to keep posting the truth for the benefit of others and to expose the lie.

Apropos of nothing other than curiosity, would Ben-Tsiyon kindly explain why he is 'ha -rishon' to the rest of us? Surely there are a great many sons of Zion, many of whom will precedehim? Genuine curiosity, I'm not trying to be funny.

Adam B.

SiN, two things. Firstly, your post aptly demsonstrates my point (and I've never seen a "barbarian" twitter!) Secondly, (and this may be hard for you because it requires something called evidence), when have I ever called for war? Give me one example please.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Finance Doc, truly amazing. How sad that Israel's advances in trauma medicine and medical rehab were necessitated by the peacable acts of Marcus's and SiN's heros who have waged a 50+ year war of terror against Israel's citizens and its very existence. SiN has now accused Adam of calling for war, yet it is Hamas, Hizbollah, Iran, Fatah (incluindg "moderate" M. Abbas) who repeatedly call for war to exterminate Israel.

Mr. Brown should also consider that the settlements he so laments are the result, not the cause, of Arab attempts to exterminate Israel. If Egypt, Syria and their allies had not launched the 1967 War, Israel would not have been in Gaza (from which it so foolishly withdrew) or the Golan. If Jordan had listened to Israel's pleas to stay out of the war, Israel would not be in the West Bank. All notwithstanding that all three countries had used those areas to launch attacks against Israeli civilians. Remember too that many of the settlements are on the site of Jewish farms and villages that were wiped out by the Arab armies during the 1948 war, and many of the first post-1967 settlements were built in strategic areas that Arabs had used before and after the 1967 war to attack Israeli villages and civilian traffic.

If Israel has been able to contribute so much to the world despite being forced to devote so much energy, talent and money to defending its very existence, who knows what contributions it could make if allowed to live in peace.

Pete Hoskin

'Si, N', 'Adam B' and others: just to say you should be careful about your posts attacking one another. I haven't blocked anything yet, but will do so if the thread degenerates into a stream of ad hominem attacks.

Harvey #2

Si N

That wall must be a source of total frustration for you .After all the number of homicide bombers in the past 18 months is practically zero.

So dont bang on about infringement of Palestinian rights . There was no wall prior to the Intifada . Now you have one and until Palestinians resort to negotiation rather than opt for murder and mayhem as a means of bludgeoning Israel it will remain in place .

For every action ,there is a reaction . Russia dealt with its Chechynian problem not by building a wall but by levelling Grozny .

The Americans invaded two Muslim countries following 9/11

The wall apart from preventing incursion from the West Bank has in fact reduced the number of Palestinian casualties as Israel has not had to resort to retaliation following Palestinian atrocity .

Count yourself lucky you dont live in Grozny !

George of Currumbin

the United Arab Emirates is generally considered the fastest growing economy in the world... and places such as Qatar, Kuwait and Oman which are held together by european and american expertise whilst the asians provide the donkey work.
not one of the advances of these countries is due to Arab expertise or scientific knowledge- they simply use billions of petrodollars to buy their way into modernity and western toys.
And that is precisely the reason people like Brown shower money at the pals.
For each dollar they give, they knpw they will get back ten dollars in contracts for armaments, desalination plants, shopping centres and what have you.
Knocking Israel is very good for business, endears the UK to the Arabs, and keeps those British companies going.
That is why Israel has become a pariah in western eyes.

john doe

Humeanbeing:

Here are two more interesting comments from the horse's mouth:

"You do not represent Palestine as much as we do. Never forget this one point: There is no such thing as a Palestinian people, there is no Palestinian entity, there is only Syria. You are an integral part of the Syrian people, Palestine is an integral part of Syria. Therefore it is we, the Syrian authorities, who are the true representatives of the Palestinian people".
- Syrian dictator Hafez Assad to the PLO leader Yassir Arafat -

"As I lived in Palestine, everyone I knew could trace their heritage back to the original country their great grandparents came from. Everyone knew their origin was not from the Canaanites, but ironically, this is the kind of stuff our education in the Middle East included. The fact is that today's Palestinians are immigrants from the surrounding nations! I grew up well knowing the history and origins of today's Palestinians as being from Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Morocco, Christians from Greece, muslim Sherkas from Russia, muslims from Bosnia, and the Jordanians next door. My grandfather, who was a dignitary in Bethlehem, almost lost his life by Abdul Qader Al-Husseni (the leader of the Palestinian revolution) after being accused of selling land to Jews. He used to tell us that his village Beit Sahur (The Shepherds Fields) in Bethlehem County was empty before his father settled in the area with six other families. The town has now grown to 30,000 inhabitants".
- Walid Shoebat, an "ex-Palestinian" Arab -

Harvey

Pete Hoskin - Was there a defamation issue as regards my comments on the Jewish National Fund? If so I give up on the subject - I can't think of a non-'defamatory' way to describe that odious shower.

Pete Hoskin

Harvey: yep. It could have landed us in hot water.

Harvey

Thanks for your honesty Pete - I still stand by everything I said and I think you'd win any defamation action but I don't suppose a certain party would be keen on marshalling the facts and arguments to win it ;)

'Nuff said.

Familiar Clown

By all appearances he does seem a genuine friend of Israel, and now that he has addressed the Knesset, one reporter has commented that it was clear that "this was a speech from Brown's heart as well as his head." I don't think he should have touched on Jerusalem though, best not to interfere on that subject.

raymond joseph douglas

I don't know what I feel about Browns comments.On one level they betray a profound ignorance of the religious and spiritual nature of the conflict Israel is engaged in with both the Arabs and islam.But it may be that he was trotting out the familiar mantra abnout settlements,"Palestinian" state etc,in order to keep the lefties in his own party off his back!Whatever the truth,his comments were truly depressing.Does he not know that"those who bless Israel will be blessed,and those who curse her shall be cursed? Genesis 12v3

Thinkster

@George of Currumbin: Spot on. The other day, I posted a long comment on this forum that went into somewhat darker detail than your post. I must have gone TOO far (despite my comments being in line with the general objective of Mel's column), my comment was NOT published! (I tried re-posting, no luck.) Summary: The Jews are being used as scapegoats so that the world can plunder resources. From 9/11 to other events, it is all a very clever scam based on manipulating Palestinians and Jews. I have tested my theory and so far, it holds water.

George of Currumbin

Quite so Melanie, the smell of rotten fish is unbearable!
Brown certainly appears to be morally bankrupt or perhaps just amoral. Tony Blair never gave me that impression though.
Brown has to follow the traditional British line. Israel's existence has been considered 'unhelpful' to the FO ever since they discovered Arab oil in the twenties and thirties. By that time it was too late to prevent the birth of the fledgling state but, oh, how they tried to strangle it at birth.
Brown knows only too well that the 'palestinians' have NEVER EVER wanted a TWO STATE SOLUTION. Their Instructions from above, religious and from the Arab neighbours who pull their strings have always been for a ONE STATE Solution and they will not settle for less. HOw many charters do they need to write and refuse to ammend for the west to understand that?
When Arafat's bluff was called. he stormed out of the 'Oslo peace' meetings.
Was it at that point that Clinton understood what he was dealing with? He implies it in his book but surely like Brown would have known the outcome from the beginning of the 'negotiations'.
So they are morally bankrupt because they knowingly use 'peace negotiations' to gain political kudos and business contract advantages in the so lucrative oil rich ME market.

Mrs. Barbara Collar

Well done Melanie. Spot on once again! These politicians are blind as they continually feed terrorism with tax payers money.
I am MAD because I am one of them. From a Christian Friend of Israel.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Ian G, you may be right about continuing to publish the truth, but I consider that the vast majority of these bigots is beyond redemption. The sickness is in their genes.

Pete Hoskin can confirm that I added "(ha rishon)" because some other, "clever", poster had been impersonating me.

Sharon

Marcu
Your silence since you have received a list of Israel's achievements speaks a thousand words! All I can add is that you would not be able to live if you stopped using inventions and innovations from Israel.

Carole Parry

The British Goverment in 1948 gave away 77% of Israels Land and named it Jordon.If I was a Jew I would focus on getting the land that was stolen from them back and sue the British for illegally giving it away.

wonderer

Carole Parry, you're thinking of something that happened in the early 1920s, not 1948.

RB

Methinks he doth protest too much. With a "friend" like good old 'son of the manse' Gordon Brown, who needs enemies like Hamas and Fatah.

Chaim

Bravo Melanie!

Wish there were more like you around.

Chaim

Ann

From Gordon's heart and not his head? What head? The man is a pathetic little prat. Look all around you in this country.

Ann

Yes, I can see why certain species object to the JNF: after all, it has helped Israel to be founded and continue to exist. That is anathema to pathological Jew-haters.

Perhaps said species should oblige us all and stop posting. After all, the Intel chip powering most of their computers' operating systems was developed in Israel.

Barbara Collar

Spot on Melanie as usual! Your comments are bang on. I wish that other journalists lived in the real world like you and had half of your wit and brain. Keep it up! From a Christian who prays for the Peace of Jerusalem.