Candid friend? No -- morally bankrupt

ndm

Melanie Phillips gives us more morally-vacuous commentary:

-- It is rooted in the left’s disdain for – or sheer incomprehension of – moral judgments, and their replacement by moral relativism and inversion camouflaged by self-righteous sentimentality. It is a view which actively strengthens the enemies of civilisation and makes continued violence and war absolutely inevitable.

What a load of dreck.

eh-oop

No, it wasn't his heart talking. It was the Glasgow by election. Otherwise, spot on.

raymond joseph douglas

Yes,melanie,Browns statements were all very sad.How I wish any of our politicians had the guts or knowledge to challenge the set default posistion regarding the "Palestinian" veiw of history or it's agenda.Perhaps he said all this stuff because he had to,perhaps he is just ignorant of the true reality,whatever his motives,Brown went further down in my estimation.Actually,he might have been surprised by the change in his own personal fortunes,had he chosen to go against current recieved opinion On Israel.For as i said yesterday,"Those who bless Israel will be blessed".And boy,does old Gordy need blessing!P.s,On another note,I am appalled that more of my taxpayers money is to be thrown at the So-called "Palestinians!

Roy

One can only hope Israel's Prime Minister Ehud Olmert can distinguish a friend from an effigy. A strong personality will know immediately and be made stronger by the the incoherence of his honorable guests advice. A weaker personality will succumb to depression and hopefully resign before submitting to the advice.

jerry

Melanie, perhaps to the British your facility with language is presumed to be part and parcel of a journalist's training, but to an American's ears your eloquence reaches heights not normally found on these shores. Thank you for using your talents to stand with Israel and to uphold the principle of truth as one of the foundations of civilization.

Melanie, I believe that what you saw in Mr. Brown's flogging of Israel today in the Knesset is his estimation that the Jews need to concede all, because 5 million Jews are not as powerful as 450 million Arabs or 1.3 billion Muslims. So strange that he could be so wrong. If the truth be known, the Jews will always have more to do with the positive outcome of world events even if they all left for other parts of the galaxy this afternoon. History cannot be forgotten once it has occurred, even if it is momentarily ignored. From the splitting of the Red Sea to the splitting of the atom the Jews have been there and done that. That is the power of history. Mr. Brown just forgot that for the moment.

Leslie

I am thoroughly ashamed of my birth country and its government.
God bless Israel and give her people strength to never give in to bullies and cowards ever again.

Thinkster

Melanie, this is not Brown, this is the British character. Having done business with and socialized on both sides of the Atlantic for 10 years aside I can confirm with much confidence that the British will often try to appease BOTH/ALL parties in a given situation rather than take the brave moral high ground. This is not an anti-Jew or Israel thing, it is a British thing. Look at our position on Northern Ireland, India/Kashmir and others, where we try to befriend all - just as long as we benefit. As highlighted by some of those posting comments in your prior entry on Brown's trip to Israel, Britain wins either way: It's all money and politics. Ethics and truth rarely comes into it.

Mladen Andrijasevic

Gordon Brown said in his speech to the Knesset:
“And to deliver this historic hard won and lasting peace, it is vital also that both sides now create the conditions for a final agreement: the Palestinians acting with persistence and perseverance against the terrorists who attack your country;”

The New York Times:
According to the poll, of 1,270 Palestinians in face-to-face interviews, 84 percent supported the March 6 attack on the Mercaz Harav yeshiva
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/world/middleeast/19mideast.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

"A Time To Speak"

In the realm of wild imagination -- What if Brown had admitted that

1. the entire mess of the "Palestine Problem" was caused by British treachery on the Mandate.

2. The countless victims of the Holocause, along with the progeny they would have had, died because Britain slammed shut and bolted the gates of the Jewish National Home, and condemned the Jews to the hellfires of Europe.

3. That many of the "Palestinian Arabs" were in fact imported by the British during the Mandate, to fill the spaces denied to the Jews.

4. That Britain encouraged and supported and aided the Arab assault on infant Israel in the War of Independence.
(Someone who was in Jerusalem during the siege of 1948 told me "We counted on it that there the daily shelling was suspended 4-5 pm, while the British officers were having their tea.)

Instead, he visits an Israel that Britain tried to strangle in the cradle, to order it to commit suicide.

Indeed a worthy successor to Tony Blair.

Charles

"A Time to Speak"

5. That the British 8th Army defeated the Afrika Korps at El Alamein (Google 'Einsatzgruppe Egypt' for clarification).

TomTom

Brown is an automaton reciting words penned by Milipede's Foreign Office and the need to placate Muslim voters in BUrnley and Oldham and Dewsbury and Bradford.

Brown is so "autistic" he has no means of recognising how he grates on real people. He is a Dialectical Materialist who thinks economic materialism is the paradise lost and that money can buy compliance as if the Middle East should become a giant welfare state funded by Arab oil.

He forgets that Gaza is a welfare state funded by the USA, EU and Turkey and Japan and that without Welfarism the birth rate in Gaza could not be sustained. That it is Western Aid that is causing population pressures and funding tribal gangsterism....it is just as bad as the way Iran pumps money into Hezbollah in Lebanon

Steve

I don't know why you would expect anything else from Brown, he's a politician he will play for both sides until one side reflects his interests more than the other and currently he obviously needs to try and keep both sides happy, what suprises me is why anyone is taking the slightest bit of notice of what he is saying Britain will have about as much influence on the situation as Lichtenstein.
If i were an Israeli i would start to worry because as the oil becomes more and more an issue U.S and british political support for Israel will slowly wane in favour of more compliance with the desires of our 'friends' in the arab world with the large oil reserves.
That is of course unless the U.S can manufacture another 'liberation' of an arab state that just happens to have large oil reserves.
As for the left supporting the palestinian cause, they will always support the perceived loser in any situation the fact that the palestinians if given the upperhand would not think twice of brutally massacring every jew in Israel is irrelevant to the left. But don't worry if that were to happen you can rest assured they will then switch their support to the remaining jewish victims of oppression in what used to be Israel.

Paul B

Again Mel leaves me open mouthed with awe and admiration with he nucleur tipped words prose. Well said that lady.

Bogdan of Australia

Brown's senseless jabber is just one more proof that BARBARITY has almost universally been accepted as a legitimate political tool of winning and maintaning POWER. It is also an unmistakable indication that so called "wetern world" is sliding fast down the gutter. This self-destructing process is paralysing Western politicians' and activists' minds and corrupting them morally, so they will seek any argument or justification to absolve themselves from any guilt in relation to any modern tragedy (not only that in ME) and from any participation in problem-solving action. Hence the cowardly and repulsive tendency to blame the victim (in that case Israel), because it is safer and more convenient. There is absolutely NO DOUBT that the great majority of EURABIANS would experience ENORMOUS RELIEF if Israel was to be destroyed. They would issue few, full of false outrage, statements, absorb some of survivors, organise housing for them, build a new memorial, or a museum, organise few symposiums, but most of their effort would be devoted to the process of building a strategic argument dissociating them from any responsibility for Israel's tragedy. We all have a good foretaste of Europe's commitment to Israel's protection in the way the UNIFIL forces in Lebanon failed to prevent Hizbollah from rearming and taking over Lebanon. One is 100% sure; Europe CANNOT BE TRUSTED!

Marwan

The left always entertained a nasty admiration for Nasser and the other so called "national liberation" dictators. Couple this with Brown's need to appease the owners in waiting of the Eurabian Caliphate and we see the reasons for his clueless mumblings at the Knesset. Israel has no friends in the West ; time to wake up to that fact.

Adam B.

Mladen, you sum up the problem perfectly. Brown's statement shows that he, and other western politicians, talk about the Middle East in terms of how they want it to be, not how it is. Poll after poll has shown a majority of Palestinians to be in favour of terrorism and genocide against the Jews. Brown falsely believes that this is due to economics. He believes that the hatred will disappear with more investment. He can't get his head around the religiously and culturally driven anti-Semitism of the Islamic world. Saudi Arabia isn't poor, yet is one of the most viciously anti-Semitic adn anti-Western countries on earth.

Harvey

While on the subject of morally bankrupt, not a word about the Israeli Army's fun day out in Nil'in, complete with piccies. Why am I not surprised?

Adam B.

ndm, as insightful as ever - I've never seen such reasoning!

Blue_and_White_Avenger

One should also view Gordon Brown's comments in the light of all the people he's addressing. It's not just the FO and the Fatah agenda that he's advocating - it's also that of Israel's Left Wing and a significant % of the population.
In short, there are people in Israel, like Olmert himself who are "tired of fighting and winning" and losing their sons in battle or blown up in buses.
This is a syndrome, perhaps similar to Jews in Germany in 1938 who refused to recognise the truth or what was said & was happening. Here, despite the undisputed fact that the PLO has not adhered to any agreement it's made, either with Israel nor its fellows in Jordan, Lebanon or Kuwait, nevertheless, they hope that this time it wll be different.
The only way that can happen is not to make concessions but for the other side to demonstarte in real terms that it's sincere.
Where it is sincere is its desire to eradicate Israel, by hook or by crook.
Israel's retreat from Lebanon, Gaza helped that process considerably.

Shaun Harbord

Three times you refer to Israel as "the Jewish state" - as you have in previous comments. I'd really like to know what you would do with the non-Jewish residents of Israel. How do they fit in to the Jewish state?

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

"A Time To Speak", right on all four points. Perfidious Albion !

Charles, oh I suppose the sole objective of the British 8th Army in taking on the Afrika Korps was to save the Jews in the Land of Israel ! It figures. As a teenager during WW2, I heard time and time again, pity that Britain had to fight Germany just to save the Jews. What a pathetic bunch you are !

Miranda Rose Smith

I'm trying to give this man the benefit of the doubt that he's an ignorant fool. Does he really want Israel to take the hand of Holocaust denier, cozy as kittens with Samir Kuntar Mahmoud Abbas? Does he really want a return to the totally indefensible 1967 boundaries? He talked about a "just and lasting settlement to the refugee problem," and everyone there knew what he meant-Israel should let the "Palestinians"in to turn Israel into one more Arab state where Jews are not allowed to set foot. If he really wanted a just and lasting settlement to the refugee problem, he'd be talking to the Jordanians, who should have taken the refugees in 60 years ago and could solve the problem by taking them in tomorrow.

patricia

And there we have the reason the right wing press see fit to assassinate Brown on a daily basis.

Israel.

Brown dares to say something intelligent on the subject, and the pack of lipstick dogs like Melanie round on him.

Democracy in action.

patricia

Paul B. Suggest you close your mouth in case you swallow a fly.

You seem to be able to swallow all the other rubbish you come across...

michael

Candid Friends of Israel -

- Neocon Bush - who on Israel's behalf gave us Iraq

- Necon Blair - who prolonged the Lebanese onslaught by allowing munitions to transit the UK

Candid Friends of Israel are a curse to the rest of us.

Judith

Brilliant, Melanie. I second Jerry's praise for your clarity of thinking, passion for truth & support for Israel in these existentially consequential times.
Funny how an otherwise pragmatic West fails to see the obvious moral high ground when it comes to Israel. It all seems so basic...when the horse kicks, don;t give it sugar...when the Arabs murder & demand subservience to their caliphate, don't appease. Guess, when principles & values get muddied, politicians lose sight of who it their most loyal allies..."moderate" Muslims are few & far between.

RUTH

The Old Testament has much writing about compassion, not oppressing poor people and loving the alien...

Not that you would know it from this article or the views of people who write here.

Israelis most of all want peace, not war. A viable political solution that promotes self respect and dignity for all sides.

That is the only way forward.

On whose behalf does Melanie Phillips speak?

Not on ours.

Adam B.

Shaun, non-Jews fit into Israel as equal citizens - it is a democratic country, with the rule of law, upheld by an indpendent judiciary. The state religion in the UK is the Church of England. How do others fit into this? Why don't you ask yourself how Jews and Bahai fit into the Islamic Republic of Iran? It's amazing how people like you get so vexed by the existence of one Jewish state, but have no problem with 37 Musilm states and 50+ Christian states.

Adam B.

Ruth, no-one would argue with "dignity for all sides. " The problem is that one side, the Arab world, wants to exterminate the other, Israel. This has been the case since Israel's birth. Until we resolve this, how is a genuine peace attainable?

Charles

Ben-Tsiyon,

“One ungrateful man does an injury to all who stand in need of aid”, as the ancients would have said.

RUTH

Not by destroying them first, Phil.

JJS

"Israelis most of all want peace, not war. A viable political solution that promotes self respect and dignity for all sides."

But this is not what its neighbours want. This I base on the evidence of history (that is, what they have DONE), not on what they SAY or have SAID.

So while Ruth's fine ideals are just that (fine ideals indeed), they are not workable. More's the pity.

Dave M

Thinkster does raise a valid point. Britain lacks backbone more than it harbours any deep-seated anti semitic disposition. You can see this with regard to the Chechnyan demand for independence from Russia, where Britain wanted Moscow to yield to terror tactics. So did Clinton. Had Vladimir Putin followed that line of appeasement Moscow today would not be a vibrant, booming economy but fragmented and possibly bankrupt. Another fundamental point to bear in mind is neither Britain or the U.S. are going to support any form of nationalism - which in Israel's case means a Jewish Jerusalem and a Jewish dominant identity. This is why Serbia wasn't supported over Kosovo or Russia with regard to Chechnya. In fact, one Mail journalist not so long ago wrote of a new global struggle between nationalists and internationalists and Brown is an internationalist. That is, he doesn't support aspirations of national identity but favours multicultural, multiethnic states, reflected by multiethnic governments. Thus, Brown would like to see no Jewish majority at all in Jerusalem or concept of a Jewish State. In Melanie's posts of late you detect a sense of bewilderment and frustration at the behaviour of the U.S. and U.K. but even American policy has always opposed nationalistic tendencies be it in Israel, Russia, Serbia, China or beyond. This can also be explained by the fact both the U.K. and Britain endorsed internal policies that would change the fabric of their own society via mass immigration, multifaith divide and social diversity as a means to peace. Israel should stick to its plan of a sovereign Jerusalem and not yield to Brown's delusions of removing the security wall. This is because in 15 years time Europe will be facing greater Islamic extremism within their onw borders and demands for Islamic law from. within. As for Brown, a country that faces calls for Sharia Law from within can hardly be hailed as an example of stability to be followed by others.

Anthony Posner

Brown does not realize that the conflict is not just between Israel and the Palestinians. It is essentially a battle between The West and Radical Islam. It is about who controls the world.
Evenif the majority of Palestinians and Israelis could agree on a peace settlement, it would come to nothing. Iran/ Syria/Al Qaeda etc would never allow the conflict to be settled.

Water

"I don't know why you would expect anything else from Brown" Steve has it I think I'll carry on with my break.

Anglo-Libyan

Was my comment too pro-Arab to be posted on this site? Perhaps if I said something like 'The Arabs are a disgusting race', you'd post what I say?

Michael B

Brown and England in general - with notable exceptions such as Thatcher - have spine problems and cranial placement problems when it comes to Israel.

Iow, they have been prone to following the E.U.'s lead when it comes to a realistic assessment of Israel's strategic and moral situation - rather than the lead that has been provided by the U.S., for the most part, at least since '67.

And this:

"It is rooted in the left’s disdain for – or sheer incomprehension of – moral judgments, and their replacement by moral relativism and inversion camouflaged by self-righteous sentimentality. It is a view which actively strengthens the enemies of civilisation and makes continued violence and war absolutely inevitable."

is tragically and decidedly correct. But it's rarely heard, in substantial part because it's so often being drowned out by the self-applause and the obfuscating cacophony of that self-righteousness in general.

Again, Defensible Borders for a Lasting Peace is a solid place to begin some better comprehensions as pertain to Israel's strategic - and moral - situation.

michael

Nice one Anglo Libyan.

This is the home of Zionist (the columnists' word, not mine) propaganda (my word), and antagonists are featured sparingly.

In the interests of transparency, I think ALL posts sent in should be featured, and given a vote.

That would present both sides of these contentious arguments in a much fairer way than is the case, where the vast majority of posts agree with the columnist.

Anything less is a form of internet censorship...

michael

Anthony,

Brown realises a lot more than you think and we can assume he is told a lot more than you know.

One thing we all know however, is what little regard the Israeli hard right has for the human rights, economic independence and dignity of its imprisoned subjects.

And how the infusion of foreign assistance will only infuriate its long term plans to kick all Palestinians into the sea.

Dr. Denis MacEoin

I don't disagree with any of this, but I don't wholly dismiss the theory that economic prosperity could become an incentive for a lot of Palestinians to seek peace. Poverty does not create terrorism, but well-being within a stable state can make the prospect of war a lot less attractive. The mistake Blair et al have made (and continue to make) is to ignore completely the reality of Palestinian terrorism, hatred, and false narrative. The prosperity will never come if Gaza and the West Bank continue to be ruled by thugs. The Islamists will never relinquish their hold on the territories or their claim to Israel because rejection of Israel has Islamic roots. Even in the UK, the governmenty blithely ignores all manner of Islamist propaganda; how much more so when it comes to the Palestinians. Many of the comments below show just the same sort of wilful blindness to the obvious. The left has been doing this for decades (and I write as a liberal, not a conservative): refusing to admit to the horrors of Stalinism, of North Korea, of eastern Europe under communism, and now the horrors of Iran, Sudan, Afghanistan, and elsewhere. That is simple fact. And the same left is morally blind in respect of Israel and the Palestinians. To attack a barrier that saves lives whiole having said nothing in criticism of the terror attacks that led to the barrier being constructed — that exemplifies a double standard that characterizes the entire left today. The left could be a force for good in the world, but instead has aligned itself with all that is most ghastly, from Stalin to Osama bin Ladin.

Sergey

To believe that Jews can ever live in peace with Arabs is a clear sign of idiocy. These two nations must be completely separated by a distance bigger than the range of rockets available for Arabs.

Lynne T

Shaun Harbord posted
July 22nd, 2008 10:46am
Three times you refer to Israel as "the Jewish state" - as you have in previous comments. I'd really like to know what you would do with the non-Jewish residents of Israel. How do they fit in to the Jewish state?

Notwithstanding the claims of the pro-Palestinian propaganda machine, a hell of a lot better than the few Jews and Christians and other non-Muslims still living in the Middle East fit into most Muslim countries. There certainly are problems, but according to a Pew poll, few Arab citizens of Israel would give up their Israeli citizenship for life under the PA or any of the other regimes in the region.

ndm and Adam B: if you've never seen such reasoning, then I guess you missed the crowd parading about London two years ago with signs proclaiming, "We're all Hezbollah Now".

Adam B.

Lynne T, I was being sarcastic! My point was that ndm provided insults without any reasoning.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

" But don't worry if that were to happen you can rest assured they will then switch their support to the remaining jewish victims of oppression in what used to be Israel."

No, sadly, if such a thing were to happen, G-d forbid, the left would justify it with arguments that the Jews brought it upon themeselves. The left does not admit error, and the Jews would receive no more sympathy from the left than did the victims of Stalin's pact with Nazi Germany, the gulags, the doctors plot, Soviet persecution of Jews, the invasion of Czechoslavakia in 1968, China's Cultural Revolution or Pol Pot's killing fields.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Ruth, I'm not sure who you mean by "us", but your use of the term "Old Testament" is a pretty good clue that you are not Jewish. Show me one nation that has ever survived by turning the other cheek to a hostile neighbor bent on its utter destruction. Eric Hoffer observed decades ago that alone of all the countries in the world, Israel is expected to behave like a Christian.

The "Old Testament" is also realistic about the need at times to go to war in defense of one's country, and the folly of expecting mercy from an enemy nation during war time. It prescribes moral rules for waging war. Israel puts its own soldiers at risk time and again to reduce the risk of death or injury to enemy civilians; the Arabs who attack Israel go out of their way to maximize the risk to both Israeli civilians and their own.

Israel has tried time and again to improve conditions for the Arabs -- with jobs, food, aid, education and medical care. Each time these efforts are met with increased terrorism, resentment and propaganda (e.g. "Jewish doctors are murdering Arab babies in the Jewish hospitals"). If you want to lecture someone about respect and dignity, go lecture Mahmoud Abbas.

Anglo-Libyan

After my highly successful 'The Arabs are a disgusting race' post (which was well-recieved by the Spectator, it seems) I'm going to try to actually express my view now.

I find the views expressed on this blog, by Ms Phillips herself and by those who follow her writing closely, highly worrying.

She and those of her ilk bay for war, demonise another nations and mock those who try to find a construtive solution. Casting aside the legitimate desires of the Palestinians for sovereignty and dignity is irresponsible and helps no one - not the Palestinians and certainly not the Israelis. The claim that the Palestinians have no right to be angry and have no one to blame but themselves for their situation is one that even most Israelis wouldn't make. And Ms Phillips and her followers cannot be more Israeli than the Israelis themselves.

The danger of these views, expressed by Ms Phillips and countless other 'writers' both in the United Kingdom and the States is that they lend legitimacy to Islamic extremists. Bin Laden tells those who will listen that the West wants nothing less than the distruction of the Islamic world. With the likes of Melanie Phillips on hand to prove this, he doesn't even need to argue his point.

The fact that the violence between Palestinians and Israel is taken as a way to judge the Arab and wider Islamic worlds more generally is totally wrong and broad statements about the Arabs are totally damaging.

Is it too much to ask that we try to adopt a more positive outlook, speaking constructively with a view to peace, rather than casting aside the Muslims as some eternal enemy?

Kennybhoy

"Morally Bankrupt"....

Is that how you would describe the author(s) of today's Daily Mail editorial "Brown's Courage" at the link immediately below....?

http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/news/article-1037130/MAIL-COMMENT-Carrots-sticks-welfare-trap.html

Best Wishes,

Kenny

Paskalis

It's breathtaking how insatiable the supporters of Israel are: not a whisper, not a muted gesture for the victims of the other side.

Pete Hoskin

Anglo-Libyan: The two comments of yours above are the only ones we've recevied on this thread. Sometimes things get lost in the web ether, rather than being censored. If you ever feel one of your comments hasn't got through, you can always e-mail it to me on phoskin @ spectator.co.uk and I'll post it manually.

Harvey

Paskalis said...

'It's breathtaking how insatiable the supporters of Israel are: not a whisper, not a muted gesture for the victims of the other side'

Yup. Unsurprisingly not a squeak on my previous comment on the Israeli Army's charm offensive in Nil'in.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Press_Releases/20080720.asp

Hope the clip doesn't get a few of you overexcited ;)

ndm

Melanie Phillips writes:

[Brown] did not tell them that their 'historic' claim to any part of the land is based on a historic and legal lie, and that Israel is fully justified under international law to hold onto it against their unending aggression.

The first half of this sentence is predicated on the old saw, "a land with no people for a people with no land," that is at the heart of Likudnik denial of the Palestinian people’s right to self-determination. The right of the Palestinian people to that land is certainly far stronger than the right of a bunch of Eastern European immigrants. The World has rightly decided that there should be a Jewish homeland there but the denial that there were people there before the resettlement European Jews there over the last century is a foul lie.
The second half of the sentence is almost completely a lie. The State of Israel has a right to defend itself from external aggression up to and including a military occupation of the Palestinian Territories. The State of Israel has no right to colonize the Occupied Palestinian Territories with civilians –that is a war crime. The State of Israel has brutally killed thousands of innocent Palestinians and immiserated millions of Palestinians not to defend the State of Israel and not to defend Jews. No, the State of Israel has brutally killed thousands of innocent Palestinians and immiserated millions of Palestinians to defend Israeli war criminals. In proselytizing lies and fantasies about the Occupied Palestinian Territories, Melanie Phillips does not aid of Israel and she does not aid Jews – instead she provides moral succor to the Zionist war criminals who have "settled" in the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

And that is just one sentence.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Harvey, assuming that the video by the terror advocacy group B'tselem is indeed accurate, the perperator of the attack will be tried and punished by Israel. The influential Jerusalem Post condemned this behavior as soon it was discovered, as has the Israeli populace in general, and the government has launched an investigation. To add some perspective, the victim who apparently was shot in the foot at close range with a rubber bullet after participating in a violent demonstration against the IDF was able to walk away under his own power. As disgusting as the attack appears to be, he was thank G-d neither killed nor (apparently) crippled, unlike the many who have lost their lives, limbs or loved ones in attacks by your heroes -- attacks that are celebrated by the Arabs dancing in the street and handing out candy to children. Did Israel declare a holiday to celebrate the attack on the Arab at Ni'lin? Did they dance in the streets and distribute candy? You already know the answer.

In short, nothing in your post has anything to do with the topic at hand other than being a feeble and inaccurate attempt at moral equivalence.

Harvey

Ahad Ha'amoratzim...

1. B'Tselem advocates terrorism does it? Send for the men in white coats.

2. No doubt the perpetrators will be told they are naughty boys and given a few months in a holiday camp - sorry military prison for the sake of appearances.

3. The chances of any prosecution without the clip would be???

4. Everybody in the world accepts that the clip is genuine. Except apparently you.

5. The followers of Baruch Goldstein are fond of turning up in Hebron for a good old gloatfest. The Israeli authoritie don't seem keen on stopping them. Or doesn't that count?

phil

PASKALIS you need to read what all the posters say if you want to make comments like that -.I for one have always said I pray for peace and justice for both peoples.but I have to wonder if there is one from the other side who hope and pray for the same for us -we hear incessantly from the joker harvey with never a constructive suggestion ,but lots of supercilious criticism and quotes from any source he can find ,so is it any wonder he causes defensive posts here -try the regularly unpleasant NDM -the first poster here as a for instance -would you write kindly platitudes to him and his like -how about making some constructive suggestions and see if you get honest debate ,you might be pleasantly surprised

Adam B.

ndm, why is it that Israel haters always try to portray Israel as a land of Europeans? Perhaps the exodus of Jews from Yemen, Morocco, Iraq, Iran, Libya, Egypt, Ethiopia, Tunisia, Lebanon, (not to mention those who never left the land of Israel) escaped your notice?

Adam B.

Harvey, re; your sad attempt to portray Israelis as supporting terrorism - just look at the prisoner exchange last week to see how terrorists are lauded in the Arab world as a rebuttal. And perhaps you can inform me how many Palestinian terrorists have been prosecuted by the Palestinian Authority (when Abbas openly praises child murderers)? Or evidence of outrage at Palestinian terrorist atrocities amongst the Palestinians? Where is the Palestinian equivalent of BTselem?

phil

Ruth -I hope you do not mind me asking what the quote by yoiu below is about -I am a little bewildered as I HAVNT SAID ANYTHING here
""""
July 22nd, 2008 12:54pm
Not by destroying them first, Phil.""""

Saxonman

Brown's speech represents more obfuscation of history and outright pandering by our so-called world leaders to the forces of evil in the world. The moral inversion that has swept the world's elites (and many non-elites) is now western civilization's great tragedy and effectively makes us compicit in bringing about our own destruction. Will the true story of Israel and the Middle East ever be understood or have we been living with and listening to the lies for too long?

And NDM, you apparently are the type of person Melanie describes since you are unable to comprehend the significance of what she is saying. Interesting, though, that use use "dreck", which has a Yiddish root. Perhaps another site would be less intellectually challenging for you to comment on.

Anglo-Arab

Adam B - 'Terrorists lauded in the Arab world'.

Why is it that a Hezbollah rally (participants running into the hundreds) becomes a rally involving the whole of the 'Arab world'? Why is it acceptable to generalise about us all?

You may like to look at the Arabic media and ponder the coverage of the recent prisoner exchange. You will find that many views were given - a great deal in praise of Hezbollah AND a great deal of criticism regarding the celebration at Samir Quntar's reception.

The Arab World is tremendously varied, both culturally and politically. Tarring everyone with the same brush only alienates people who would potentially be in accord with you.

Harvey

Phil -

Supercilious? Moi?

I've lots of constructive suggestions. You wouldnt like them.

Two general remarks on comments in this blog:

1. It is a comfort zone for hyperzionists in denial. On some deeply buried level they are aware that their views are an affront to reason, commonsense and elementary decency but as they really want to believe them, they cluster together for mutual solace. I'm not expert to comment further on the pathology of this but the symptoms are foaming at the mouth hysteria, conspiracy theories everywhere and gross personal abuse.

2. This comfort zone should be challenged at every stage. Always go to the belly of the beat. But...

I am cut to the quick by your 'incessantly'. Yup - time to give myself a rest from you lot. Someone else can pick up the torch.

Anglo-Arab

Adam B - 'Terrorists lauded in the Arab world'.

Why is it that a Hezbollah rally (participants running into the hundreds) becomes a rally involving the whole of the 'Arab world'? Why is it acceptable to generalise about us all?

You may like to look at the Arabic media and ponder the coverage of the recent prisoner exchange. You will find that many views were given - a great deal in praise of Hezbollah AND a great deal of criticism regarding the celebration at Samir Quntar's reception.

The Arab World is tremendously varied, both culturally and politically. Tarring everyone with the same brush only alienates people who would potentially be in accord with you.

ndm

Adam B. -

The real "Israel haters" here are those like Melanie Phillips and yourself who provide moral succor for the decades-long Israeli subjugation of the Palestinian people. The true friends of Israel are those like myself who encourage Israel to abandon its unfortunate dalliance with moral depravity which is the outcome of its colonization of the Occupied Palestinian Territories.

EC

The New Labour project has been morally bankrupt from its conception and will remain so until its final acrid fart.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Harvey,
1. B'tselem has offered to provide phony cover stories for ISM volunteers coming into Israel to act as human shields for terrorists. This was documented by a journalist for Front Page Magazine who infiltrated an ISM recruting session in Berkeley.

3. As to prosecution had there been no video, sadly this is a problem in prosecuting instances of police brutality in any society, including the UK and the US. Israel's record of punishing those who attack Arabs is still vastly better than the PA's record for prosecuting those who attack Jews. The Israeli government has even punished Jews who acted in legitimate self defense against Arab attackers, and certainly does not fund or encourage such attacks.

4. As to the video, I do not rule out that it may be genuine, but I also do not discount past fraudulent videos of supposed victims of supposed Israeli atrocities. And the video, remember, was taken not by B'tselem but by a demonstrator using a camera furnished by B'tselem.

5. Most Israelis still consider Goldstein a monster. The handful who consider him a hero receive no funding or encouragement from the government. The government has never declared him a hero or a martyr, put his likeness on a stamp, or named anything after him. In short, the opposite of the way that the PA treats mass murderers.

Your attempts at moral equivalence are transparent and disgusting.

BJ

In calling for withdrawal from territory acquired by Israel in the 1967 war Gordon Brown is doing no more than restating the position in international law. Similarly, his call for a settlement of the 1948 refugee question is entirely consistent with the relevant UN resolutions on the right to return.
His speech is a welcome dose of reality, in contrast to Melanie Phillip's blog..

FinanceDoc

ndm

Thread after thread; post after post you make the same fatuous claim of Jews living in Judea and Samaria as "war criminals". And thread after thread; post after post you are enraged with the reality of superior Jewish rights both ancient and as enshrined in UNSC resolutions granting Jews the right to live anywhere in the territories. What a vile racist you are! Advocating for the very type of ethnic cleansing you accuse the Jews of.

It must be extraordinarily painful to know that you cannot alter the world to fit your reality by decree.

Dave M

"Casting aside the legitimate desires of the Palestinians for sovereignty and dignity is irresponsible and helps no one - not the Palestinians and certainly not the Israelis."

The Israelis, I think. don't have a problem with a Palestinian State. Neither do I, for that matter. Yes, of course, the Palestinians have rights but many of us also believe Israel has the same right to its national identity as a Jewish State. That is, as Spain and Italy were Catholic countries, so too should Israel be Jewish with its own borders. Why not? This isn't a great deal to ask of either the Islamic World or the Palestinians. The Islamic world is huge and Israel is comparatively small but it should not have an Islamic identity forced upon it. Now, if Arabs want to live peacefully in Israel and tolerate both Christians and Jews, I don't think Jews would object. But they do object to any notion of Islamic Imperialism expressed by violence and hatred. If the Palestinians adopted zero tolerance of violence and terrorism, Israel would also actively endorse a Palestinian State.

Adam B.

Anglo-Arab, you are right that there was criticism of the reception of Kuntar in some of the Arab press, and of course I appreciate that the Arab world is varied. I should have been more precise. However, it isn't just about Hizbollah (and it is worth noting that many Arabs oppose this Shia terror group because of worries about Iran's spreading influence). The fact is that terror acts against Israelis are rarely criticized in the mainstream Arab press, and there is no sense of outrage when cafes and buses are blown up along with the innocents inside them. In Palestinian society, such attacks are treated with glee, and sweets are handed out with celebrations in the street. Even when people die in hospital days after the attacks from their injuries, there are renewed celebrations at the news of each death. In addition, virulent anti-Semitism is unfortunately common in much of the Arab press:
http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm

Adam B.

Yeah right ndm, I know you really care about the welfare of Israel(!) Harvey, whilst you are very upset that a Palestinian was bruised on his big toe, (that's ALL that happened - quick, get the TV cameras!) an Israeli today had most of his leg severed by a Palestinian on a rampage with a bulldozer, injuring a dozen others, including a baby and mother. Glad you've got your sense of perspective.

Adam B.

ndm, the territories aren't Palestinian, never have been, and BJ, international law does NOT require Israel to return to the 1967 borders.

phil

goodbye harvey I am honoured to be the one to see you off-you will not be missed especially by the good harvey

Al Ramy

Well presented! It could be helpful to many British readers to understand that most Israelis barely know a thing about Mr. Brown, nor will they remember one word from his speech. England is regarded as Anti-Israel and traditionally anti-Jewish. It is not helpful to Israel, nor is it where bonds of friendship are made. They seldom worry or care of what the British say. England as a country proved to be a reliably poor partner on numerous occasions. The condecending and contemptuous feelings toward the Jews is not new and came with general Alenby. There are many in Israel who still remember the days when the British flag was flying down the street and it is no happy memory. Therefore, with all due respect, few care about Mr. Gordon Brown and his appeasing agenda.

Paskalis

“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.” David Ben Gurion

Roslyn Pine

Paskalis.

We can all find quotes taken out of context.
However, for sentiments of real hatred directed against Jews (and infidels in general), try having a peek in any Arab contemporary textbook, schoolbook, as well as watching their TV, listening to their radio programmes etc. etc.

It is quite obvious from reading the comments here that the ndms, BJs, Patricias, Harveys el al do not love the Palestinians, or anyone else for that matter. None of them have raised so much as a whisper against, say, the genocidal Islamist regime in Sudan.
Of course not, for it is Jewish success in so many areas of life, and against all the odds, that they truly depise.

They are cowards twice over for expressing their virulent anti-semitism "respectably" by attacking Israel, which they also despise for existing, and more obviously for concealing their true identities.
If they have a genuine grievance, what are they afraid of?
Jews are not exactly prone to beheading those with whom they disagree.

It is likely, therefore, that the above mentioned are simply fronts for one or more of the numerous Islamist groups.
Or just cranks?

phil

Paskalis ,yesterday I took the trouble to address some concerns of yours and I see you have posted again but without the courtesy of a reply to me -in fact a nasty quotation which no doubt will be refuted by those with a better knowledge of David Ben Gurion than me -If your purpose here is merely that of an agent provocateur I do not doubt that those that post here in good faith will treat your efforts with the contempt they deserve -but maybe I am wrong and you do not read all the posts -you should .

Charles

Al Ramy,

"The condecending and contemptuous feelings toward the Jews is not new and came with general Alenby."

Is that the same General Allenby whose achievements are recognised by the naming of Allenby Street, Allenby Square, the Allenby Bridge and the 'Allenby Memorial' (funded by my grandfather's regiment, amongst others, in 1920)?

Adam B.

Paskalis, we can all play that game. Do you want me to list all the genocidal quotes against the Jews by Arab leaders?

"Blessed is he who puts a bullet in the head of a Jew."

Sermon broadcast on official Palestinian Authority TV.

Si, N

Harvey, still not a peep about Ni'lin - not a word - just a load of smoke from the usual melunits.

Ahad, your responses are truly lame - how old are you dear? Understand this: the video is a glimpse of how the Israeli Occupation Forces operate in the ever increasing occupied territories – the truly remarkable thing about the video is that it exists – not the events portrayed – sadly, those are common-place. Similar barbarous practices are being carried-out in Bi’lin and elsewhere. Little of this is reported - the danger for journalists is acute - the IOF regularly terrorise and often kill journalists who report their crimes.

It’s all part of the full spectrum terrorism being visited upon the Palestinians. Understand this, the violence is not only inflicted on people – consider the vandalism to the olive groves - here is Ni'lin resident Asad Amera's story:

'Asad lost thirty-eight of his one hundred and twenty olive trees in two days, and will lose eight of his twenty-five dunums of land to the Wall. This devastating loss came not long after he spent almost 27,000 NIS to put a well on his land. Some land-owners are losing much more. The entire village of Ni’lin will collectively lose 2,700 dunums to the Wall, along with another two hundred dunums to a tunnel that is currently being built in order to connect settlements to Israel. The Israeli military has stated that gates will be provided so that farmers will be able to access their land once the Wall has been completed. This same promise has been offered before, to other villages cut off by the Wall, but these agricultural gates are only opened three times a day for about twenty minutes. Farmers are forced to acquire a permit in order to gain admittance their land, but this does not automatically guarantee entry. Each permit contains a specific gate number, and some farmers are given the incorrect number on their permit. Ultimately, the decision to let people through rests with the soldiers, whether or not the accurate documentation is given.
The fruit and oil of olive trees provide a profitable market worldwide. Asad once sold oil to much of the area surrounding Ni’lin, but as his trees are continually uprooted, he will have to resort to buying it from others. However, his family of eleven depends on the land, not only for income, but for food. Asad will lose a source of money and food as his land is confiscated'.

Such is the daily grind of the occupation.

As for the tired cliché about Palestinians teaching their children to hate - what you seem to forget is that Israel brutalizes every single one its children - boy and girl alike - by forcing them into uniform, giving them a gun and instructing them in the art of killing - fact.

Blow smoke and bleat on.

Dave M

There are always cases to be found of soldiers who abuse their status and act contrary to law. All that video would indicate is there are one or two rotten apples to be found in the basket. It's odd how the Beeb seems to delight in broadcasting any video they can get their hands on that depicts the IDF as oppressive or lawless. This is what we call "targeted indignation". Such indignation and outrage seemingly ignores the U.N. soldiers or peacekeepers who, we were told, sexually exploited minors in the countries they serve. In some cases even rape has been reported by rogue U.N. troops. Thus, as I said, in every basket of apples you find some rotten ones but I can say for sure the IDF is nowhere near as harsh and heavy handed as the Russian army in Chechnya. The majority of IDF service personnel operate under the rule of law and compare favourably with other armed forces.

Ann

As usual, the morally and intellectually bankrupt - spearheaded by ndm - spew ignorant antisemitic bilge.

Ann

Si's ignorant antisemitic screeching - the Jews are terrorists, the genocidal Arab cavemen are not - is summarised in 'IOF'. What a jerk.

Ann

Adam, the empty-headed leftoid antisemites lie and lie and lie (when they are not simply stupid and ignorant) because they have no other tool: historical facts, truth, justice and basic human decency are all against them.

This non-stop lie was the favourite tool of Goebbels. It is now the tool of Islamo-Nazis and their stooges everywhere, including quite a few here (we don't need to list their names).

Ian

What an extraordinary, uncompromising rant. How long before an exasperated international community simply declares "a plague on all their houses"?

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Paskalis, your supposed quote from Ben Gurion is not even taken out of context -- the "quote" has long been exposed as a total fabrication. Ben Gurion never said it, and neither did the report it was supposedly taken from. See http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=22&x_article=775

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Si N, I am 58 -- old enough to know that videos can be manipulated (though I am reserving judgment as to whether this one was) and to know that not every self styled human rights organization is interested in protecting human rights.

Did Asad mention that Israel has paid compensation to every Arab who lost land because of the security fence? I thought not. Or did he simply plant the trees on land that he did not own?

Apparently you think it lame to point out the distinction between an abuse of power that will be investigated and punished by the Israeli government (and which as Adam B. pointed out involved a bruised toe) and the PA's deliberate planning, funding and glorification of mass murder. That you consider it a lame distinction says much more about you than about me. As to your justification for teaching Arab children to hate Jews (not just Israelis, let's remember), if we applied your same standards to the Jews there would not be an Arab left living in Gaza, Judea, Shomron, the Galil, or South Lebanon. Thank G-d that Israelis and Jews generally have not adopted your warped sense of morality.

Si, N

harridANN, calm down - take a deep breath, and point to a lie my last post

Si, N

Ahad, when you say, 'Israel has paid compensation to every Arab who lost land because of the security fence', I take it that you are referring to money - typical. Understand this: some people have higher priorities than the slavish worship of Mammon - namely, a resolute attachment to the land on which they and their family have resided for generations - now there's a concept that no zionist can argue with. That said, do you really believe that the sordid shilling is genuine recompense for being brutally robbed off land?

phil

SIN dont bother Ahad -I WILL SAVE HIM THE TIME -get your mates to stop trying to get suicide bombers over the wall and do not doubt it, the wall can come down.the soldiers are in uniform because crazed people like you want to invade Israel and kill its citizensand have done since 1948--you ask Ahad how old he is ,answer old enough to remember -how old are you and do you have a memory? the tale about Asad is very upsetting ,presuming you are telling the truth but would no doubt never happen if your friends were not intent on scaling the wall to kill the ones on the other side -do you have influence there ?

Si, N

Previous poster (pp), you really are a very ridiculous man.

'….since 1948' - that'll be about the time the zionists commenced their programme of brutal ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs.

That ethnic cleansing continues apace - see Ni'lin and elsewhere for evidence.

Pp - grow up.

Resume bleating.

phil

SIN forgive me I forgot to ask you ,were the bulldozer drivers farmers from the other side of the fence? and those that killed the students in Jerusalem -you know dressed in civilian clothes -no guns just books -you really are one sick person and a good reason why peace is so hard to attain -perhaps even poor Asad would have a chance to live in peace if it were not for crazies who think like you -and no SIN i AM NOT A HIPER ZIONIST OR WHAT EVER YOU WISH TO CALL PEOPLE WHO WISH TO LIVE INPEACE IN THE HOLY LAND -I am just a guy who wishes to see the two people reconciled and with a chance for the children to grow and live a full life -can you emulate that -silly question I know

Charles Oren

Gordon Brown's comments on the Arab-Israel conflict - and his proposed solutions - seem to be based on solely media reports rather than an in-depth study of the problem. I sincerely hope that his knowledge of the other problems that face his government are based on more facts and a better understanding,

Si, N

Sorry pp - that's just more smoke - must try harder.

phil

SIN just seen your reply to pp-you are amusing me .but you have before many times and that's ok -what is the pp bit is that where you have been ?and by the way the bleating is all one way traffic from you !!-1948 was exactly the time BEN GURION(rip) invited all the people living in Israel to stay in place and become full citizens -check it out boyo there are newsreels available -any more lies you want to tell -teacher doesn't mind -and I hope you dont mind me taking the pp I am sure you are used to it

-If you want some real juicy stuff I could reccomend some old copies of Der Sturmer and if you give me your address I will send you some really old copies of the dandy and beano -you would like those -very grown up though -best regards boyakasha .

phil

Adam B have you a couple of old hotspurs lying around -I have offered SIN a few dandies but they may be a little advanced for him - a Wizard might do I think there was a good story of Tel Aviv T ony who fought off 50 million invaders with just a few of his friends -he would like that I ,m sure

Ann what was it the girls used to read as we haven't established what SIN is yet nor the age .only that he/she makes up fairy tales and is angry .,can you help ?

Si, N

Hey Adam B, you'd best join the fray - harridANN's been calling out for you - now the pp too - oh, and the pp also wants haridANN to have another go - pp, I think her over active apoplexy may have finally gotten the better of her - poor old dear.

phil

Ahad please do,nt answer the poor boy he is upset enough-we can stand him in the corner for a while but for heavens sake do,nt tell him any facts ,he is in enough of a mess as it is .I, am organising some comics for him -do you have any to spare ?

phil

well SIN glad you,ve joined in the fun ,we are giving some of the hard working people a few laughs -at your expense of course - but never mind its in a good cause -and has at least stopped you posting porkies for a while -bed time now its late for you and careful with the pp -got to go now the grown ups are here

KateA

Paskalis - "It's breathtaking how insatiable the supporters of Israel are: not a whisper, not a muted gesture for the victims of the other side."

Unlike your own dear 'freedom fighters' eh? Tell you what, let's 'swop' quotes! Not only in the historical context of Ben-Gurion (1948), which means the Holocaust, the British blockade, and ongoing Arab terrorism against Jews ... let us continue through the next 60 years.

"Of course. Ben-Gurion was a transferist. He understood that there could be no Jewish state with a large and hostile Arab minority in its midst. There would be no such state. It would not be able to exist." (Benny Morris)

Indeed, he was right. Displacement and loss of territory is what happens in war. Ask the Hindus about Muslim conquest (8 million slaughtered); ask the Armenians about the Turks, or ask anybody in the world where Muslims (Arab or Asian) are still colonising territory, displacing the indigenous population and fomenting civil unrest.

What is different about Israel is that the apparatchiks of the 'equality' industry and their self-righteous Jew-hating supporters have deemed Israeli (defensive) war strategy as: an international war crime!

The reality of course, as illustrated in this 'swop' is that, the Arabs have never sought peace or accepted the consequences of their own aggressive actions.

Throughout history, those displaced by war have been given sanctuary and citizenship in the lands to which they have fled. Not so, in the Arab lands surrounding Israel. The following illustrates why.

"Kill the Jews wherever you find them. This pleases God, history and religion.”
Haj Amin al-Husseini, Mufti of Jerusalem
(Radio Berlin, March 1, 1944)

“This will be a war of extermination and a momentous massacre which will be spoken of like the Mongolian massacres ...”
(Azzam Pasha, Secretary-General of the Arab League, BBC, May 15, 1948)

"If the Jewish state becomes a fact, ... the Arab peoples, will drive the Jews ... into the sea… we will never submit. We will never accept the Jewish state... But for politics, the Egyptian army, or the Muslim Brotherhood, could have destroyed the Jews".
(Hassan al-Banna, [Grandfather of Tariq Ramadan and Muslim Brotherhood founder]
New York Times, August 2, 1948)

"In demanding the return of the Palestinian refugees the Arabs mean their return as masters, not slaves, more clearly – the intention is the extermination of Israel.”
(Salah al-Din, Egyptian Foreign Minister
(Al-Misri, Egypt, October 11, 1949).

"“Israel, to the Arab world, is like a cancer, and the only way of remedy is to uproot it … we cannot endure the pain of this wound forever. We don’t have the patience ... We Arabs total about 50,000,000. Why don’t we sacrifice 10,000,000 of our number to live in pride and self-respect?”
(King Saud of Saudi Arabia, New York Times, January 10, 1954)

“We will make it a decisive battle and get rid of Israel once and for all… This is the dream of every Arab.”
(Gamal Abdel Nasser, President of Egypt
Washington Post, July 27, 1959)

“Our path to Palestine will not be covered with a red carpet or with yellow sand. Our path .... will be covered with blood…”
Gamal Abdel Nasser (Pre-election speech, 1965; in Islamic Imperialism: A History,Yale University Press, 2007, p162)

“We have decided to drench this land with our blood, to oust you, aggressors, and throw you into the sea for good.”
(Syrian government broadcast, Radio Damascus, May 24, 1966)

“We shall never stop until ... Israel is destroyed…no compromises or mediations… the goal is the elimination of Zionism ... We don’t want peace, we want victory. Peace for us means Israel’s destruction and nothing else. ”
(Yasser Arafat, PLO chairman, Washington Post, March 29, 1970)

“We shall not rest until the day when we return to our home, and until we destroy Israel.”
(Yasser Arafat, El Mundo, Venezuela, Feb 11, 1980; The Times, UK, August 5, 1980)

“The Prophet… says: ‘The Last Hour would not come until the Muslims fight against the Jews and .. kill them, and until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim Servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him'. (Art. 7) Hamas Covenant.
(Gaza, August 18, 1988; reprinted in Journal of Palestine Studies, Summer 1993, pp122)

“We will not lay down our weapons until complete liberation... Sooner or later we will throw the Zionists into the sea.”
(Lt. Col. Munir Maqdah, PLO commander in Lebanon, Reuters, October 8, 1993)

“... the criminals, the terrorists - are the Jews… They are the ones who must be butchered and killed, as Allah said: ‘Fight them: Allah will torture them at your hands, and will humiliate them and will help you to overcome them’ … Have no mercy on the Jews, no matter where they are, in any country. Fight them, wherever you are. Wherever you meet them, kill them.”
(Dr Ahmad Abu Halabiya, Palestinian Authority cleric, PA Television, Oct 13, 2000)

“[This is] an exceptional historic opportunity to finish off the entire cancerous Zionist project.”
(Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah leader
Financial Times, Europe Ed, April 25, 2001)

"We are ambushing the Israelis and cheating them… If we agree to declare our state over what is now 22 percent of Palestine, meaning the West Bank and Gaza… We distinguish the strategic, long-term goals from the political goals, which we are compelled to temporarily accept due to international pressure.” (Faisal Husseini, PLO strategist
Al-Arabi, Egypt, June 24, 2001; Jerusalem Report, July 30, 2001)

“... we believe that one of these days, we will enter Jerusalem as conquerors, enter Jaffa ... Haifa ... Ramle and Lod … we are convinced that our dead go to Paradise, while the dead of the Jews go to Hell… Oh Allah, show the Jews a black day… Oh Allah, annihilate the Jews and their supporters… Oh Allah, raise the flag of Jihad across the land…”
(Sheikh Ibrahim Madhi, Palestinian Authority cleric, PA Television, April 12, 2002)

“Allah’s promise and the Prophet’s prophecy of our victory over the Jews ... Before Israel dies, it must be humiliated and degraded. Allah willing, before they die, they will experience humiliation and degradation every day... we will make them lose their eyesight, [and] their brains.”
(Khaled Mashal, Hamas leader, Al-Jazeera TV, February 3, 2006)

"The only thing we have against Hitler," wrote popular Egyptian columnist Anis Mansour "is that he did not finish with the Jews."

phil

KATE A YOU SHOULDNT HAVE WRITTEN ALL THAT IT WILL KEEP SIN AWAY FROM HIS COMICS -anyway he won,t understand it :)

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

SiN thanks for pointing out that only a money grubbing Jew would expect someone to take money in return for losing his land to a governmental project. Here in the west, land is taken all the time for matters of public necessity, whether the owner likes it or not. It is called "eminent domain" and has a long history in Anglo-American jurisprudence. Not that I expect you to agree that keeping Jews and Arabs from being blown up within Israel is a matter of public necessity.

Call me back when you can spare some outrage for the 500,000 to 700,000 Jews who now reside in Israel after being driven out of Muslim countries and having had all of their lands and goods confiscated with no compensation.

And by the way, who gave you permission to call me by my first name? That's Mr. Ha'amoratzim to you.

Adam B.

Thanks for the research KateA. That sent Paskalis packing. This fanatical SiN guy isn't worth it - what can you say about a man who is more concerned about someone bruising their big toe than the genocide of Darfur?

Adrienne and Edward

We, too, were appalled at the smug and self-satisfied nonsense spouted by Gordon Brown in The Knesset. "Return to 1967 borders"? Wake up and smell the Katushas, Mr.Brown.

FinanceDoc

"the danger for journalists is acute - the IOF regularly terrorise and often kill journalists who report their crimes."

Your time would be better allocated taking a geography lesson than posting online. The destinations where journalists are routinely subject to intimidation, harassment, abuse, threat of kidnapping, torture and murder if they don't toe the PA/Islamist line are Jenin, Ramallah, and Gaza City.

http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/2527/press104.htm
http://www.meforum.org/article/604

Chaim

Bravo again!

I only wish that those in power would grasp the truth of you argument.

Chaim

Ann

-'….since 1948' - that'll be about the time the zionists commenced their programme of brutal ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian Arabs.

Where are the men in the white coats? I don't believe there is anything else the sane posters on this board can do for anyone spouting such crazed antisemitic drivel.

Ann

Brilliant, infantile name-calling too - I have managed to annoy the lying antisemites. What a great day.

phil

looks like he has left to read his comics-amazing what a little kindness can do -we await with trepidation the return of Sin-ful and robin.

What happens when?

I've always wondered what would happen when the liberal left had to decide who would win victim status in a tale of two victims.

Looks as though Israel has lost out in the Liberal lexicon of victim stakes.

Si, N

Mr. Ha'amoratzim, you're very sensitive for one who apologises for the terrorisation of an entire people aren't you - if you were not so self-regarding you might actually understand that there is a world of suffering out there. Here, views are frequently exchanged about the Middle East - particularly when the thread is concerned with Israel/Palestine - as this one is - Finance Doc, would you please extend your geographical advice to Adam B - he keeps parping on about Darfur - I think that's a different continent isn't it. Just kidding - of course I do appreciate that when seeking to defend the indefensible - such as the ongoing and increasing occupation of Palestinian land, a handy tactic is to attempt to change the subject - talk about anything - just steer clear of the occupation.

About that remark: 'money grubbing jews' - that's simply not how I view people in general - please point to any comment of mine where I disparage Jews in general. Maybe you're confusing me with the type of racist who comments about 'Arab cavemen'

Adam B, help me to understand - now and again I post occasional comments on this blog - you on the other hand post comments on every thread - yet somehow I'm the 'fanatic' - ???? - still, I suppose it makes sense in the inverted reality that is your domain.

Kate A, phew, that's quite a compendium of nasty quotes - though had you persevered with Benny Morris you could have spared yourself the trouble - because when he said:

'(t)he fear of territorial displacement and dispossession was to be the chief motor of Arab antagonism to Zionism',

he just about hit the nail on the head. That kind of renders your little list redundant.

harridANN, about 'infantile name-calling', 'jerk' a term of endearment where you come from is it?

Resume bleating

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

SiN writes: "About that remark: 'money grubbing jews' - that's simply not how I view people in general - please point to any comment of mine where I disparage Jews in general."

I point to the following:

"when you say, 'Israel has paid compensation to every Arab who lost land because of the security fence', I take it that you are referring to money - typical. Understand this: some people have higher priorities than the slavish worship of Mammon - namely, a resolute attachment to the land on which they and their family have resided for generations"

Again eminent domain has a rather long history in the West.

"About that remark: 'money grubbing jews' - that's simply not how I view people in general - please point to any comment of mine where I disparage Jews in general. Maybe you're confusing me with the type of racist who comments about 'Arab cavemen'."

No, but I do take you for the type of racist who has one standard for the Jewish state and another for everyone else. I sense this is both the cause and the effect of your willingness to accept so much bogus "history" of the region, even when it contradicts first hand accounts from primary sources.

"Mr. Ha'amoratzim, you're very sensitive for one who apologises for the terrorisation of an entire people aren't you."

The objection to being addressed by my first name is what we sometimes call a 'joke.' I take it that so is your accusastion that I am apologizing for the terrorisation of an entire people. Most of the apologetics for terror on this blog are coming from you and your friends. I particularly enjoy your comparison of the bruising of a prisoner's toe by an Israeli soldier -- an admittedly brutal and inexcusable act but one that was unauthorized (see yesterday's report about the polygraph test that his commanding office passed) and is being investigated by the government and will be punished -- with the repeated, deliberate and brutal murder of civilians that planned, funded, carried out and glorified by the PA, Hamas and your other darling movements on a regular basis.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

SiN quotes Beeny Morris: "(t)he fear of territorial displacement and dispossession was to be the chief motor of Arab antagonism to Zionism',

Yes, and Christians for centuries feared that the Jews who supposedly killed God would murder them to use their blood for consumption in religious ritual. Arabs today fear that Israel is going to undermine Al Akhas mosque or blow it up or raze it, that Israeli soldiers will rape Arab women, that Jewish doctors will inject Arab babies with AIDS in Jewish hospitals, that the Jews are disbributing chewing gum that will render Arabs sterile, and that the Jews are working on an ethnic bomb or virus that will kill only Arabs.

All of these lies have been spread in Mosques or in PA newspapers and radio and TV broadcasts. All of them may be sincerely believed by the people who hear them. That does not make any of them true.

Adam B.

SIN,

1. The Palestinians aren’t “terrorized” – it’s the Israelis who suffer from terrorism.
2. I think Mr Ha’amoratzim knows about suffering – no one has suffered as much as the Jews. Suffering is not exclusive to the Palestinians.
3. The subjects you raised are completely unrelated to this thread, and one wonders why you constantly interject with irrelevant hateful comments. The whole idea of these posts is that they bear some relation to the subject in hand – otherwise it’s just a meaningless free for all.
4. Sorry to keep “parping on” about Darfur, it must be most tiresome to hear about the atrocities committed by an Arab government against helpless civilians. It’s a place where a real genocide is taking place, not an imaginary one.
5. You have ignored the point made about compensation, and also ignore the Jewish refugees from Arab nation who have received no such compensation.
6. Why is it so difficult to understand that the security barrier (95% is NOT a wall, but a fence) only went up after several years of suicide bombings against Israeli civilians? It is sad that some farmers have lost land to it, but it is even more sad when children get blown into little pieces, as was the case before the barrier was erected. The solution is for the Palestinians to stop these terrorist outrages. Then the barrier can be dismantled, and farmers can get their land back. Why can’t you get your head around this?
7. I do not live in an inverted reality, and I do not comment on every thread. I respond to anti-Israel fanaticism, of which you are a key proponent. Your language betrays you as a fanatic, not the number of posts.
8. The so-called “occupation” is not increasing. There is a finite amount of land, and since 1967, (after an attempt of genocide against Israel by several Arab nations) Israel has withdrawn from the whole Sinai Peninsula, Taba, and Gaza. This was in order to try to achieve peace. By the way, when did this land become “Palestinian”? And if you regard it as “occupied”, you must also regard Prussia as occupied by Poland. If not, why not?
9. I have referred to your remarks. Will you deal with the comments about Jewish refugees and Palestinian terrorism aimed at innocent civilians?
10. Benny Morris has made it clear that those who try to use his work to delegitimize Israel take his quotes out of context and do not understand it. I think you fit into this category by being selective. How on earth does this make KateA’s list of quotes redundant? Redundant for you perhaps, because it doesn’t fit your simplistic world view of nasty Jewish oppressor – innocent Arab victim. The list clearly demonstrates anti-semitism and genocidal intentions, in fact a real blood lust – not simply a political disagreement. Your refusal to condemn these quotes reveals a lot about you.
11. You have a particular fondness for the word “bleating,” which is used to describe anyone who dares say anything you don’t agree with. How very silly.

KateA

Sin says: "That kind of renders your little list redundant."

Indeed. For Jew haters, 60 years of Arab incitement to murder and extermination is JUSTIFIED!

You really DO need to learn how to do some research if you wish to debate with adults.

phil

Ahad ,Adam B and all MELANIE SUGGESTS WE DON'T TALK TO HAMAS ,and I am asking you why you are all talking to this silly boy SIN -he doesn't want to know anything from you -he just wants to spout anti Israeli nonsense and you are giving him the opportunity -He surely is well capable of talking to himself .his very presence here demeans us all ,we look for peace and that never enters his mind

-yesterday I showed him for the fool he is and you are wasting your time and scholarship on him -let him go and bother someone else .

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Adam B. -- one might mention that with the Gaza withdrawal, the vast majority of land taken in the 1967 war is under Arab self-government. That this government is thuggish and incompetent is the fault of those who selected them and tolerate them. As is the economic deprivation and the sheer inconvenience that result from Israel's justifiable responses to constant terrorist attacks committed by the Arab governing bodies and by groups operating within the PA administered territories and tolerated and encouraged by the PA itself.

And please, Adam B., feel free to call me Ahad.

Si, N

Adam B., sorry, you lost me at, ‘no one has suffered as much as the Jews. Suffering is not exclusive to the Palestinians’. True, the second sentence recognizes that Palestinians actually suffer – but it’s the prior invocation of the Nazi Holocaust as a justification that did for me. Nevertheless, since you are imploring and you went to the trouble of putting together a nice little numbered list – though points 4 and 5 are the same; that’s cheating – let me address that point. The Palestinians don’t necessarily want compensation. They want the colonising forces to stop stealing their land.

Btw, bleating refers to ‘bleat point’ – do some research.

KateA, I research and I’ve tried on this blog to do serious debate. On that occasion the previous poster (I refer to him thusly because like Mr. A he got all shirty about how I addressed him - hyper sensitive souls where themselves are concerned but will happily apologise for all manner of barbarisms against others) he crumbled and began to jabber about Batman and Robin, and James Bond – a bit like he has done on this thread in fact - blowing smoke - while his ally, Adam B, was going nur nur nurnur nur – I gave up after that.

Not sure about that phrase, ‘debate with adults’. Debating people who so distort reality that reason takes flight is no better then debating an infant.

Allow me to illustrate. Imagine this scenario: some people watch a video that clearly shows a bound and blind-folded person being shot in the foot at very close quarters – the people are then given 24 hours to research the incident and offer feedback to a web-site. It transpires that the events seen in the video happened in Palestine - a respected Israeli organisation reported:

‘The incident took place on 7 July, in Nil'in, a village in the West Bank. A Palestinian demonstrator, Ashraf Abu Rahma, 27, was stopped by soldiers, who cuffed and blindfolded him for about thirty minutes, during which time, according to Abu-Rahma, they beat him. Afterwards, a group of soldiers and border policemen led him to an army jeep. The video clip shows a soldier aim his weapon at the demonstrator's legs, from about 1.5 meters away, and fire a rubber coated steel bullet at him. Abu-Rahma stated that the bullet hit his left toe, received treatment from an army medic, and released by the soldiers’.

A heated discussion ensues. Some people maintain that that they saw a detained person being shot in the foot at very close quarters and since the detainee was involved in a peaceful demonstration against an aggressor wishing to steal his land it looked like the detainee, Ashraf Abu Rahma, had gotten a rum deal that day. Others in the group become agitated because the events relate to a project that they support. The agitated people refuse to acknowledge that Ni’lin exists, or at least are unable to utter the name. They dismiss the incident as nothing more than a clumsy old ‘Arab caveman’ stubbing his toe and declare that that’s the end of the matter. Somebody tells the agitated people that they have just distorted reality and that they don’t have the dual spherical objects to state that which an architect of their beloved project was happy to admit:

’If I were an Arab leader I would never make terms with Israel… We have taken their country. Sure, God promised it to us, but what does that matter to them? Our God is not theirs. We come from Israel, it is true, but 2,000 years ago, and what is that to them? There has been anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault? They only see one thing: we have come here and stolen their country’. Ben Gurion

Si, N

CORRECTION - SHOULD READ 'POINTS 5 & 9'

Adam B.

Thanks Ahad!

Adam B.

SIN,

How can the Jews steal their own land, offered to them by the UN partition plan of 1948, a plan rejected by the Arabs (which would have given them their own state in addition to the one they were awarded in Transjordan, now Jordan)? Here we get to your true agenda - your complaint isn't about borders, it's about a Jewish state existing at all. Why don't you admit it?

Adam B.

SIN, I'm responding to you. You STILL haven't responded to the questions I put to you. You can't have the discussion all on your terms.

Si, N

Adam B., sorry, I'll bandy no more words with cowardly barbarians - come back when you get civilized.

Ciao

Adam B.

SIN,

What a complete cop out! You have just proven that you're not interested in a debate, just in slogans and propaganda.

TrevorH

Browns speech shows two things

One
he should not be let out on his own

Two
he lives on a different planet

JIll

Most people do defer to bullies. Brown is clearly one of them.

Ann

"Adam B., sorry, I'll bandy no more words with cowardly barbarians" -
No, you'll go and chat to your nice friends, the brave and civilised Hamas, right?

Ann

Moderator: Si,N calls Adam B. a 'cowardly barbarian', but you allowed that post. You blocked my response. Terribly even-handed ...

Pete Hoskin

Ann - do you mean the response that's up and timed at 1:35pm today? That's only one I've seen, and it's been approved.

If you're referring to another, it may have got lost in the web ether - you can always send it to phoskin @ spectator.co.uk and I'll put it up manually for you.

KateA

Sin says: "KateA, I research and I’ve tried on this blog to do serious debate."

I have been away so missed this but 'No'. You have tried on this blog to impose ONE version, one perspective, of an ongoing conflict. This is confirmed by instant dismissal of quotes, from a variety of original sources on the 'other side', spanning 60 years.

Research means WORK; it has little to do with emotion or hysteria; it has nothing to do with seeking out those who agree with one's 'gut' reactions.

Research is an ongoing process of compare and contrast; searching out, and close reading of original sources; exercising judgement and attempting balanced conclusions.

That entails work: on official documents - not too many of those available on the Arab side - e.g. 'released' League of Nations and British Mandate papers, British Army reports; the original Balfour declaration, newspaper reports from (what used to be) authentic investigative (or war) journalists, reporting on-the-spot throughout the period.

Then there is the trawl through published historical perspectives, the archaeologists, Jewish documents, Islamic texts; an understanding of the consequences of war; displacement, genocide, international law; cultural absolutes; what constitutes 'fascism', racism and 'totalitarianism'; and, of course, the difference between democratic societies and feudal or theocratic states.

It all takes time and concentration. Nothing is black and white entirely; it is not valid to manufacture 'nations' or to discriminate between 'rights of return'.

Further, I do Arab 'leaders' the courtesy of believing what they say, ergo I believe they wish to exterminate the Jews - what's new? They have been issuing clear statements on this since WWI. I believe too, those Arabs who have stated: 'There is no such thing as a Palestinian, only Syrians, Egyptians, Jordanians', et al.

Historical documentation agrees with the latter. There were ME Jews, Arabs and others resident in that area under the Ottomans and under the British Mandate. The oldest 'claim' to the territory is indisputably that of the Jews - unbroken residence since the Roman invasion.

Similarly, there a plethora of documentation proves that Jews have been ethnically cleansed from Arab states without any compensation or 'right of return'.

Equally, there is no debate to be had about the existence of theocratic and/or feudal Islamic states which claim a right to exist as religious entities whilst denying the democratic Jewish state that right.

Emotive rhetoric is the weapon of those who have adopted the 'Palestinian cause' without due attention to easily verifiable historical fact. For that reason alone I will always seek to present alternative evidence.

Si, N

KateA., oh dear, we're right back to basics here aren't we? You say that I have ' tried on this blog to impose ONE version, one perspective, of an ongoing conflict' - KateA., that's debate - I present what I believe to be the case and you do the same.

To illustrate, you produced a list of quotes that you believed demonstrated how Arabs are bent on wiping-out Jews - you didn't seek to explain why Arabs might be so disposed by, for example, reproducing Benny Morris' or Ben Gurion's explanations for Arab animosity towards Zionists - nor would I expect you to - this after all is not a conversation about a topic on which we agree.

Nor is it, on my behalf at least, an 'emotion'/'hysteria' fuelled '"gut" reaction' - I have no vested interest in the matter - that's not so in your case is it?

Emotive rhetoric is the weapon of those who have adopted the 'Zionist cause' without due attention to easily verifiable historical fact. For that reason alone I will always seek to present alternative evidence.

That said - I'll gladly accept advice on how to debate with somebody who doesn't understand what debate is.

Si, N

KateA., oh dear, we're right back to basics here aren't we? You say that I have ' tried on this blog to impose ONE version, one perspective, of an ongoing conflict' - KateA., that's debate - I present what I believe to be the case and you do the same.

To illustrate, you produced a list of quotes that you believed demonstrated how Arabs are bent on wiping-out Jews - you didn't seek to explain why Arabs might be so disposed by, for example, reproducing Benny Morris' or Ben Gurion's explanations for Arab animosity towards Zionists - nor would I expect you to - this after all is not a conversation about a topic on which we agree.

Nor is it, on my behalf at least, an 'emotion'/'hysteria' fuelled '"gut" reaction' - I have no vested interest in the matter - that's not so in your case is it?

Emotive rhetoric is the weapon of those who have adopted the 'Zionist cause' without due attention to easily verifiable historical fact. For that reason alone I will always seek to present alternative evidence.

That said - I'll gladly accept advice on how to debate with somebody who doesn't understand what debate is.

KateA

Sin: Just a few comments on arrogance.

Debating skill requires the ability to produce, factual, verifiable evidence which negates the assertions of the opponent.

In this you fail, whatever your personal opinion of your ability. To convince, one must have considered the opposition case in detail and be able to show the vacuity of any absolutist position.

I have studied the region of the ME you believe belongs to a "Palestinian" nation. I have also examined the 'reasons' WHY Arab settlers left in 1948. There is plenty of documentation on the instructions from Egypt, Syria, the Mufti et al for residents to get out of the way of what they proposed would be advancing armies. Are you not aware of these facts?

The documentation, confirmed subsequently by Syria, the PLO, Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, leads me to conclude the Arab countries surrounding what is now Israel are more responsible for the displacement of the vast majority of 'refugees' than the Israeli army.

That is not to deny the role of a defensive force in displacement. (Do read Benny Morris more carefully.)

Further, any understanding of International law, the Geneva Convention or the difference between UN Security Council resolutions and the rag-bag of UN committees which pronounce on the legality of the state of Israel would enhance your debating skill.

ONLY Security Council resolutions have legal status. The others, e.g. the Human Rights committee, now heavily weighted in favour of non-democratic states, merely voice opinion. Opinion has no status in international law.

It is a pity you believe you have nothing to learn. My 'skill' - or as you would have it, lack of it - was fashioned when we were shovelling bits of bodies off the streets in my country.

When idealists such as I believed all we had to do was 'talk'. We talked, incessantly. Every small advance was negated by men of violence and a media that chose to designate all my people as Nazis, whilst 'understanding' and perpetrating the myth of the 'leaping laughing Gael'.

Leaping and laughing in the blood of their neighbours - a bit like the Lebanese last week. Such experience renders one sceptical of absolutism and ignorance.

How many of those who are 'All Hizbullah now' have even the vaguest knowledge of the historical reality of the ME?

colindale

>My 'skill' - or as you would have it, lack of it - was fashioned when we were shovelling bits of bodies off the streets in my country.<

I've arrived a bit late in this discussion, Kate. Is your country Palestine or Israel? There have been measurably more bits of bodies to shovel in the former than in the latter - hundreds more. So I guess you're Palestinian, which makes your comments more understandable. But don't forget there are some good Israelis also - somewhere.

Si, N

KateA., when you say, '(m)y 'skill'… was fashioned when we were shovelling bits of bodies off the streets in my country', naturally, I sympathise with your having to perform such a grisly task. But I struggle to see how you square such an awful fashioning with your earlier insistence that ' it has little to do with emotion or hysteria'.

KateA

'colindale': there is really little I can say to one who 'counts' body bags as some sort of 'proof' but says nothing of cause and effect.

Clue - "leaping laughing Gael"!? I am an Irish Protestant. The world media preferred this myth of a 'persecuted', harmless minority imbued with the gift of 'blarney' and a preference for 'dancing at the crossroads' i.e. the Gael, to the reality of Provisional IRA terrorism.

Those attacked were not so 'attractive. They had not acquired a (albeit 'colonial' and intellectually insulting) mythical status as harmless leprechauns. The 'dour' Northern Protestants were designated 'Nazis'.

WHY? Because they were a majority in a 'Protestant State for a Protestant people'. The precise equivalent of Eamon de Valera's 'Catholic state for a Catholic people' i.e. the Republic of Ireland.

No reference ever over 30 years, to overt and documented proof of RC discrimination against Southern Protestants; no mention ever, of a 24% Protestant minority reduced to 10% over a period of eight years - 1916 to 1924. Most of those fled North. Today, in the multicultural Republic of Ireland Protestants form a minority is 3%.

It is difficult to clarify with literalists SiN. Hugely emotional experiences must be balanced by rigorous intellectual application otherwise we would all go insane. Please reference anything you deem 'emotive' in any of my posts.

That said, my first funeral during the 'Troubles' was that of a school friend. A huge funeral in a small rural town - Catholics and Protestants following the coffin of a young Protestant man everyone knew.

He was shot in the back of the head - by Provisional IRA. They 'explained': he was 'in the wrong place' i.e. a predominately Catholic area of Belfast city, visiting a girl.

This is not the place for a lesson in Irish history - let us just say, the experience of childhood and early youth in a small, mutually supportive rural community, did not correspond to the media version of Irish history nor Catholic/Protestant stereotypes.

I, and many of my student co-religionists, marched for Civil Rights. The call for 'One Man One Vote' applied equally to working class Catholics and Protestants. Only those with property OR a name on a rent book, had the right to vote in local elections. It did NOT, of course, apply to government elections.

With age comes responsibility; experience of terrorism and knee-jerk universal response, influenced my choice of profession. It has, I must confess, led to sceptical vision - a need to clarify and acquire documented 'proof' of glib allegations.

I have applied that same investigative rigour to Middle Eastern history, Jewish history and Islamic teaching. I imagine we have little common ground on which to meet. A pity.

Adam B.

SIN,

Still don't have the guts to address Jewish refugees and Palestinian violence which deliberately targets innocents? I had the courtesy to address your ponts. Why are you frightened to address mine?

Adam B.

KateA,
It's always a pleasure to read your eloquent and sensitive writing.

wonderer

Re: KateA's
July 29th, 2008 8:28pm and specifically "ONLY Security Council resolutions have legal status." it is my understanding that not all SC resolutions are legally binding but only those written under Chapter VII of the UN Charter. I know not everyone shares that view but I have read in one leading textbook, Professor Harris's Cases & Materials on International Law that resolutions made under Ch VI are not legally binding. It's common ground of course that General Assembly resolutions, other than those about the UN itself, eg budgets, are not binding.

colindale

I suppose, Kate, that you do not question the UN resolution of 1947 regarding the establishment of a Jewish state in Palestine? It's a little like picking out the black fruit-gums that we like and discarding the others, isn't it?

wonderer

colindale July 31st, 2008 5:41am, your point is misconceived. For reasons I read once but have since forgotten, the partition issue was turned over by the Security Council to the General Assembly, who told the Jewish and Arab communities of the Mandate territory that they could each go ahead and set up a state. The resolution did not itself establish states: the normal characteristics of statehood under international law had to be achieved. I don't remember them all off hand but one of them is control over an identified area of territory and another is recognition by enough other states. (It's not something cut and dried and different states differ as to the relative importance of particular characteristics.) The Arab community and the Arab states rejected the resolution. The Jews accepted it.

I just had a quick look at the UN Charter and didn't see anything specifically empowering the SC or the GA to establish states. I don't think UN membership is in itself decisive.

It's long been recognised by many states that Israel satisfies the normal criteria of statehood under international law.

I hope this helps. Better than fruit-gums anyway.

Si, N

KateA., thanks for your thought provoking post - in truth, much of what you write is highly emotive - but then I never raised the subject, and I don't confuse it with cloying sentimentality. No, it's the humane element and it's sadly missing from much of the debate -that's why your posts are so effective - they prompt a pause for reflection.

About the common ground, we did have some - though it was rent down sectarian lines - I was from the other side of the divide - there was a great deal of nastiness on both sides - just like we see in the ME. Where you feared the provos' bullet - we feared the butcher's knife - the death of Stephen McCann at the hands of the Shankill nutters; Lenny Murphy et al, played big in our house. My parents got out quick and shrugged-off the religious yoke. Still, in Britain we endured the insults and bricks through our windows.

In the spirit of reconciliation - would you please recommend to me the one post-9/11 book that you believe best conveys the conflict from the Israeli perspective.

colindale

Wonderer<
Post WW2 there were huge numbers of displaced/ stateless refugees, many Jewish, roaming around Europe. It was politically expedient to establish a Jewish state in Palestine. It was not a matter of ethics or morality or justice or compassion or anything else - merely expedient. Virtually all the countries of the Middle East voted against the UN resolution (as would we all if we were Muslims with our land and homes at risk in Palestine) and Britain abstained. The new state satisfied various European issues then but, as is obvious today, was a tragic misjudgment of astonishing magnitude for which we all now bear the consequences - though worse is yet to come when Iran is attacked by those who need to retain hegemony in the region.

Adam B.

Colindale, it was not expedient to create Israel after WWII. The British, the colonial power, did everything possible to stop a Jewish state being realized. Britain abstained from the UN vote for partition. Who was it expedient for? The notion of a Jewish nation state did not come about as a result of the war - Zionism as a political movement dated back to the 19th century (and the Jewish desire to "return to Zion" was recited in Jewish prayers since the beginnings of the diaspora). Widescale Jewish immigration had taken place before the spectre of WWII was in the air. The fact is that when British colonialism came to an end, it was only natural for the Jews to establish a mdern nation state in their homeland. Palestine had never, at any time in history, been a state of any kind, and Palestinian "nationalism" had not yet been invented.

KateA

Well SiN, who would have thought it? Where in the Name of God did you come up with that pseudonym? It pleads for levity!

Whatever, thank you for a thoughtful post. Stephen McCann was a very talented musician and a fine boy. Another funeral I attended.

Later, I discovered one of my students, gifted but troubled, was first cousin to a Shankill Butcher. The shame of the 'connection' came close to destroying him BUT, with a little care and attention, he came through.

Likely because I have been drowning in Catholics(!) for most of my life, I question the automatic (unthinking) identification so many make with the Palestinian cause. Throughout the 'Troubles', Palestinian flags were flown in working-class Catholic areas, Israeli flags in the equivalent Protestant?

Something to do with 'folk memory' perhaps. On the one hand, memories of living under siege; on the other, colonialism or, the terrible libels perpetrated against Jews for centuries by the Catholic Church?

The latter is, of course, quite logical. Our Lord WAS a Jew. He lived and died a Jew.
To establish a separate and different sect, the original Church had to find a reason ergo, the libel 'The Jews killed Christ'. A lie of course, the colonisers, the Romans, killed Christ.

Protestant churches are equally guilty. Martin Luther (another break-away) was a rabid anti-Semite - true to his 'facticity'.

Which brings us to Sartre - 'Being and Nothingness'. Our 'facticity' is that which is unconsciously absorbed from birth. We do not choose WHERE we are 'inserted' in the world, we are, in Heidegger's terms, 'thrown' in!

It is important to understand the factual situations that we are confronted with. We are 'thrown into' and become part of a certain culture, a certain environment with a particular climate and history, a certain society and a specific situation.

As we develop and expand our learning, we have FREEDOM to choose BUT if we do not recognise HOW our individual freedom to choose interacts with the influence of our facticity we cannot make choices of good faith.

I firmly believe that a 'common' Christian 'facticity' facilitated the holding-together of so many thousands (particularly women) during 30 years of terrorism. Yet, in order to make that decision, those women had to 'move' against the 'givens' of another part of their facticity i.e. the historical divisions between Nationalist and Unionist. They had to choose (in good faith) to be 'different'.

My adult children and students are by now holding their heads and moaning 'Oh NO, he/she(?) has handed her a soapbox'!! Sorry.

My understanding of facticity goes some way toward explaining my position on the Israeli/Arab conflict. I cannot fathom how two such totally incompatible 'facticities' could ever find accommodation.

Most particularly because, the majority in the Arab world do not have the benefit of the free to all, education and health systems available in N Ireland 1948-present.

They are therefore at the mercy of religious leaders and the educated (usually wealthy) elite. Secondly, Islam, from my reading, is a totalitarian ideology which dictates every facet of the believer's life. Islam differs fundamentally from Judaism and Christianity in that there has been no renaissance, no revision, the text of the Koran is immutable.

Re. books. To the best of my knowledge, the ONLY book specifically engaging with 9/11 and written by an Israeli is:
'Confronting Jihad: Israel's Struggle & The World After 9/11' by Saul Singer.

A series of essays but they hold together well and convey a middle-ground Israeli perspective. It is also wide-ranging in that he considers so many aspects of Israeli democracy. He is himself a free marketeer and would prefer Israel were less 'socialist'.

Perhaps not quite what you are looking for, but an excellent writer on what it means to be an Israeli today is Daniel Gordis.

I have two of his books 'Coming Together, Coming Apart' and 'Home to Stay'. There is a new one in the pipeline but not yet published - 'Will Israel Survive'.

Hope this does not qualify under 'more information than I [you] require'!

colindale

Adam B – It is not factual to assert that Britain ‘did everything possible to stop a Jewish state being realized’ even though she abstained from the vote. But a Jewish homeland was certainly politically expedient for post-war Europe to shovel-off the remnant of European Jewry and to go some way to assuage the guilt of European anti-Semitism. As for political Zionism – that is a comparatively new entity that is barely a hundred years old and has little to do with the Jewish prayer of ‘next year in Jerusalem’ that is an integral part of Jewish worship. OTOH, there has been an Arab indigenous presence in Palestine for over one thousand years and it was certainly not ‘natural’ for Jews to establish a state in that land notwithstanding a biblical claim that a Jewish sect lived there two thousand years previously. It is incumbent upon us, IMHO to deal in facts. Those facts include Israelis with water and food and Palestinians without water and food. They include 1200 Lebanese civilians killed by a murderous Israeli army and their deliberate contamination of Lebanon with cluster bombs – which BTW are exported to regimes throughout the world. Excellent for Israel’s GDP but an utter tragedy for mankind.

Kate – it is a refreshing pleasure to read your posts. Thank you.

Adam B.

Colindale, thank you for your post. Britain not only abstained from the vote at the UN, she curtailed Jewish immigration (including during the war, even at a time when 10,000 Jews were being murdered every day at the height of the Holocaust). Britain made great efforts to stop the Jews obtaining weapons when Jewish villages and kibbutzim were being razed to the ground by Arab attackers. Simultaneously, the British authorities looked the other way whilst the Arab inhabitants built their arsenals. The British then trained the Arab legion in Jordan, and British officers were in command of this highly trained body of troops during the 1948 war of independence, shelling Jerusalem and starving its Jewish inhabitants in a ruthless siege, the aim of which was to eliminate a Jewish presence in Judaism’s holiest place on earth. Britain certainly did not act as if the establishment of Israel was “expedient”. And as for the rest of Europe, how was it “expedient”? There were hardly any Jews left! In fact, most of Europe was politically impotent at the end of the war, and the real political power in the world came from the USA and USSR. Are you saying it was expedient for them? How exactly? Israel did not come into existence because of “Europe”.

You are of course right to maintain that political Zionism is relatively new, dating back to the late nineteenth century. This is of course older than Palestinian nationalism, which dates from the 1960’s. The Arabs of 1948 were not fighting to create an independent “Palestine”. Can you explain why there was no push for Palestinian nationhood when Egypt occupied Gaza and Jordan Judea and Samaria between 1948-1967?

Your contention that Zionism has little to do with the Jewish prayer demonstrates a lack of understanding of Jewish sensibilities. You are right to say there has been an Arab presence in the area for a thousand years. There has been a Jewish presence for three thousand – not all Jews left after the Romans destroyed the Temple. You veer very far from facts when you claim that there is merely a biblical claim that a Jewish sect lived there at one time. Can you reveal your source for this astonishing claim? The Jewish Temple, the overwhelming archaeological evidence? All just a “sect”? When you say sect, are you implying that there were Jewish sects elsewhere at that time? Please explain.

You have water and food. Many Africans do not. What is your point? That this is all Israel’s fault? And regarding the war with Hizbollah, it is difficult to engage, as KateA has said, with one who counts bodybags but ignores cause and effect.

C U Vaird

>it is difficult to engage with one who counts bodybags but ignores cause and effect<

Don't engage with anyone who brings attention to the terrible brutality of 1200 completely unnecessary civilian deaths in Lebanon - because there is a secret justification which I cannot discuss. Neat! I must learn to argue my case in that fashion. Very academic. Meanwhile the bodies of men women and children lie mouldering in their graves as Israel goes about its daily business dealings. UGH!

KateA

colindale - 'questioning' the resolution disguises something more sinister. No one questions Arab states 'created' after WWI.

No one suggests Lithuania, Belarus, or half of Ukraine be restored to Poland.

No placards saying: We are All Germans Now - Pomerania, Silesia and East Prussia (which had a majority German population) or West Prussia? Sudetenland? Any worries about Tibet or Sudan?

FACT: in civilized countries, displaced people are absorbed and granted citizenship.

Not so in the Middle East. Arabs instructed their 'brothers' to leave Israel but those brothers are still incarcerated in refugee camps with no rights. Why? Why do Arabs specialise in 'blame' whilst NEVER accepting responsibility for the consequences of their own actions?

Why have Syria, Egypt, PLO et al confirmed there is no such thing as a Palestinian Nation, only Syrians, Egyptians, Jordanians?

The Ottomans - not Arabs ruled the area (1517-1917).

Where do the 'rights' of conquest and settlement and 'return' begin and end? How far back in history must we go to establish that 'right of return' OR is it to be restricted only to Arabs who left their lands in 1948?

Vladimir Jabotinsky, asked in 1918:
"The matter is not ... an issue between the Jewish people and the Arab inhabitants of Palestine, but between the Jewish people and the Arab people. The latter, numbering 25 million, has [territory equivalent to] half of Europe, while the Jewish people, numbering ten million and wandering the earth, hasn't got a stone...Will the Arab people stand opposed? Will it resist? [Will it insist] that...they...shall have it [all] for ever and ever, while he who has nothing shall forever have nothing?"
(Caplan, Neil, Palestine Jewry and the Palestine Question, 1917-1925, Frank Cass, 1978)

The State of Israel today occupies territory equivalent to the size of Cornwall. Six million Jews live there surrounded by 300 million Arabs. Something like 900,000 of those are ME Jews hounded from majority Arab states.

The condition of Arab (or Muslim) 'civilization' speaks for itself. No enlightenment, no renaissance, no economic progress; the oil wealth is obscene and the feudal lord it over illiterate, poverty-stricken masses. All this based on medieval concepts of superiority supported by 6/7th century immutable texts.

By the same token, those useful idiots who demand Israel be returned to the Arabs on grounds of ethnic 'rights', or the European origins of some of the Jewish population, DENY European white cultures 'right of protest' against the colonisation and civic disruption caused by unregulated Muslim immigration. And HOW the Muslim Brotherhood 'pulls the strings' of absurd post-colonial guilt.

By some mysterious 'moral' equation akin to mathematics of the double-negative, the most despised 'sins' of sexism, terrorism and 'racism' (read extreme religiosity) are annulled by the unquestioned 'virtue' of the Palestinian 'cause'.

The logic is despicable.

Adam B.

CU Vaird

1200 civilians were not killed in Lebanon. Please get your facts right. It is estimated that around half this total were Hizbollah terrorists. Hizbollah had initiated hostilities by crossing a sovereign border into Israel (the border was completely peaceful at that time), killed 10 soldiers, abducted two of them, and then launched an indiscriminate artillery barrage against Israeli civilian centres. This was BEFORE Israel responded.

What exactly was Israel supposed to do? Sit on its hands and suffer 4000 rockets falling indiscriminately on its population? Like any other country would, it responded. Unfortunately, Hizbollah has no qualms about ensconcing itself amongst civilians, and in targeting Hizbollah rocket squads, it was inevitable, and tragic, that civilians are killed. However, Israel does not target civilians. Leaflets were dropped to try to avoid civilian casualties. If Israel had wanted to kill civilians, it could have killed 1000 times more. It has the firepower. In contrast, Hizbollah deliberately targets civilians, and rejoiced at the 200 or so it did manage to kill. The number isn’t higher for the simple fact that it didn’t have the ability – the desire was there. You seem to resent that Israelis go about their daily lives, in the face of a genocidal war waged against them for decades. Rather than a reason to condemn, I think this is admirable! By the way, there are plenty of Jews mouldering in their graves too (perhaps not enough to please you?) Suffering isn’t exclusive you know!

KateA

C U Vaird -"Very academic. Meanwhile the bodies of men women and children lie mouldering in their graves as Israel goes about its daily business dealings. UGH!"

Yep! I make it a point of principle NOT to engage with those whose ONLY argument is 'cheap' or easy sentiment like: 'dead women and children'. Any worries about the children or women of Darfur? Tibet?

Anyway, why did those in Lebanon die? Where were the instigators - Hizbullah? How many of the dead were civilians? How do YOU know? More unsubstantiated, unverifiable rhetoric AND, your figures are substantially inflated.

Alexandrovich

It has become very quiet in here; peaceful even. How refreshing. I have been given more food for thought, by Kate and SI'n in one thread, than by the usual posse who just wait for Melanie to ring Pavlov's bell. After which, of course, the rabid salivating and gainsaying commences.

The nagging anxiety though, is that Ann will turn up at any given moment.

wonderer

Colindale, the British restricted Jewish immigration during the Mandate period severely while permitting Arab immigration. They also made it as hard as they could for Jews to buy land. On top of that, I once heard a former Mandate official and well known Arabist suggest that the 1947 Partition was unfair to the Arabs because the Jews owned so little private land. Oblivious to his own hypocrisy.

But you started off with a hit and run shot about international law and when that misfired you shifted your ground.

Cluster bombs? I don't feel comfortable about those either but you have to remember that Israel was forced by international pressure to abandon an assault that would have broken the Hizbullah forces. Not unreasonable, therefore, to make it as difficult as possible for them to rebuild their infra-structure - if that's why it was done, which I don't know.

Kate A, thank you for your invariably informative and thoughtful contribution. I place you on the same extremely high plane as your compatriot Dr Denis MacEoin, who btw has an excellent blog on these topics.

SiN, indeed a droll pseudonym, but not as droll as real life. Some of us remember when the Cardinal in the Philipines was called Syn.

KateA

wonderer, Adam B, Alexandrovich, colindale - thank you.

wonderer: Good stuff on divergence of opinion re. the UN and international law. Thanks again. I am too often guilty of rattling off something from memory.

Re. Denis MacEoin. I am proud to say we are indeed compatriots, I know his work, fact and fiction. The novels are compulsive reading.

Colindale

Wonderer: - 'hit and run shot about international law and when that misfired you shifted your ground'

Which shot was that and how did it misfire and which ground was shifted?

On 29 November 1947, in Resolution 181, the United Nations General Assembly voted 33 to 13, with 10 abstentions, in favour of a Partition Plan that would establish a Jewish state in Palestine. That was an expedient move instigated primarily by the European states in an attempt to cleanse them from the stain of anti-Semitism and the horrors of the Nazi Holocaust that virtually liquidated European Jewry. The US was then not over-enthusiastic but went along for the ride. If it is your opinion that Israel was created for some other reason - I would be interested hear of it. It should be remembered that Israel is and always was a secular state with virtually no religious affiliation and those in this thread who would try to construct or fabricate a connection are misguided. For many years, European Jewry was very much opposed to the Zionist political movement - and a section still is. The Jewish liturgy and prayer that refers to a return to Zion should not be conflated with the modern Zionist movement which is a political attempt to obtain hegemony in the Middle East with the assistance of the Israeli lobby in America supported by tens of millions of evangelical Christians who adhere to the biblical concept of Israel and Zion but care nothing and do not subscribe in any way to Judaism. On the contrary in fact.

Colindale

As for the cluster bombs that you 'do not feel comfortable with'. Are you aware that Israel's primary exports are cut diamonds and armaments - the latter being sold to any regime around the world that will pay for them - no questions asked. Are you comfortable with that? Do you have any conception how these Israeli cluster bombs (and others) contaminate our planet in order to make a few Israeli export companies rich? Are you comfortable with that or will your answer be that as America also exports cluster bombs, why pick on Israel? IMHO it is an obscenity - but then I'm not an arms manufacturer - I make my money helping people live not helping them die.

Adam B.

Colindale, how absurd to claim that Israel wishes to dominate the region, a country of 5 million in the midst of 300 million Arabs, who have oil! This is, along with your "Israeli lobby" remarks (don't the Saudis have a lobby, and a far richer one?) unfortunately part of the "Jews control the world" mindset. How repulsive. As for cluster bombs, who have these been exported to? I am not happy with exports to regimes which don't respect human rights, but if Israeli weapons do go to the wrong places sometimes (and I've yet to be convinced by any evidence - please provide some)Israel is hardly alone in this. Are you happy with British weapons to Saudi Arabia, our biggest customer? The difference is, you seem to use this as a way of delegitimising Israel altogether. Do you delegitimise the UK?

Adam B.

Colindale, Israel's biggest export is actually technology. Over half its GDP comes from the high tech sector.

colindale

Israel's principal export is diamonds. $10.6bn FOB 2007. Not software. Please do not post misinformation.

Adam B.

Colindale, I'm afraid not. Check this out:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/nolpda/ukfs_news/hi/newsid_7375000/7375994.stm?PDA=1%3F%253F=

From the BBC, an organization which is hostile to Israel.