A lonely voice of principle

maverick

yes shame on them Melanie you are right and they are wrong!!

oh my sweet sweet Mel when will the world know that you are right so right.

Joshua

I think Israel should agree to this provided also the UK agrees to start talking to Al-Qaeda.

raymond joseph douglas

Yes,melanie,shame on them all!i would remind the conservatves that supported this report,that many christian friends of israel are watching you!We,too,have long abandoned labour/liberals for their anti-family policies.We were on the verge of turning to the conservatives.But if Cameron cannot find the courage to go against the pro-palestinian flow,then christians will abandon him along with the other two main parties! Those who bless israel will be blessed dave,and those who curse her will be cursed! Gen 12v3

FinanceDoc

I just ran a quick search on the Select Committee's report. Over 5,000 words and not a single instance of the term:

"Terrorism"

Enough said.

Bob Latchford

" Peace arrived in Northern Ireland because the IRA was beaten by the British Army, at least into a permanent stalemate"

Dear oh dear.

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Melanie: How can a HARE achieve critical mass?

Stephen Rothbart

Looking at the make-up of the committee it seems very strangely peopled. Leeds, Birmingham and Bradford have heavy Muslim populations, there are four Scots, never previously known for pro-Semitic sentiments.

Hardly surprising how they voted then.

Ann

"It is telling that some of the very same people pushing for a warming of relations with Hamas are dead set against good relations with Israel. They support the boycott, divestment and sanctions agenda"

Err ... what do you expect from dyed-in-the-wool antisemitic scum?

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Before the usual suspects arrive with their accusations of war mongering, here are a few choice parts of the Hamas charter:

""Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it" and continues in the introduction, "the Islamic Resistance Movement erupted in order to play its role in the path of its Lord. In so doing, it joined its hands with those of all Jihad fighters for the purpose of liberating Palestine." "Israel, by virtue of its being Jewish and of having a Jewish population, defies Islam and the Muslims." (Article 28)

"Characteristics and Independence:

Article Six:
The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out."

From Article 7:
"Characteristics and Independence:

Article Six:
The Islamic Resistance Movement is a distinguished Palestinian movement, whose allegiance is to Allah, and whose way of life is Islam. It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine, for under the wing of Islam followers of all religions can coexist in security and safety where their lives, possessions and rights are concerned. In the absence of Islam, strife will be rife, oppression spreads, evil prevails and schisms and wars will break out."

"Article Eight:
Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes."

From Article Eleven:
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that."

From Article Twenty-Two:
"For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses, broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their resources and spread corruption there.

You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere, without having their finger in it."

Remind me again what there is to negotiate?

Hysteria

I agree Mel. Leaving aside the emotion of it for a moment lets focus on what actuall achieves the objectives - just like we have finally shown that socialism has failed, so too we know from evidence that negotiations with Hamas have also failed.

That siad - not sure what the answer is - permanent state of low-level armed conflict? A somewhat depressing outlook!

Ed Hummer

I've always been of the opinion that Bin Laden did for the IRA. As soon as the twin towers came down there were no more buckets going round the Irish bars and the St. Patricks day invite to Washington was no longer extended. The idea that "talking" to them made any material difference is laughable.

wonderer

As to the comparison with the negotiations with the IRA, let's remember that their objectives were confined to the island of Ireland. It was never their wish to exterminate or expel the inhabitants of the British mainland.
If Israel were to negotiate with Hamas and others of that stripe, it could only avoid dangerous and damaging concessions by taking as extreme a position as theirs in the opposite direction. In any case the terrorists always have the option of utilising their fragmented structure and regrouping under the banner of, for example, Islamic Jihad.

To say this to the members of the Select Committee would be no doubt like teaching Granny to suck eggs, as they would no doubt feel that the exercise would be risk-free to the UK and EU while Israel can go
hang. Some of us, however, see Israel as the canary in the coal mine.

Adam Marlborough

Great article.I never cease to be alarmed by the continued vilification of Israel in the media, educational establishments, and especially the credulity of those in parliament who continue to be taken in by pro Hamas propaganda.As you say,shame on them.

field

We can talk to lots of people, but I think we have to have some basic rules. I think we should have a basic rule that we don't engage with people pursuing genocidal policies or the eradication of UN member states. I think Hamas, Hezbollah and the current Iranian dictatorship all come under that heading.

Terry

Melanie, is Daniel K right on ConHome?

Gilbert

I am surprised that the Polish Tory MP Daniel Kawczynski signed it. Israel's position is analogous to Poland's in the thirties.

Terry

" It is therefore as obscene and counter-productive to talk to them as it was to talk to Hitler."

I have often opined that we are seeing a technicolour re-run of the 1930s.

Hitler....Hamas.....what the hell?!! Apeasement of those who peddle the antisemitic canard should carry a cost. Those who helped hitler commit genocide were tried and sentenced (often to death). Those who now appease hamas should do so in the knowledge that they too will be culpable. Hamas=hitler=antisemitic racism=genocide. I wonder why Israel holds its ultimate deterrent? Could it be that in the absence of any protection from the islamofascist antisemitic bile that has been swallowed by erstwhile democratic world leaders, we Jews feel that we can ony trust our own endeavours for ultimate protection. Those appeaseing hamas and the like should be aware that if Israel is ultimately threatened, most of the world's oil fields are likely to be in the area affected by nuclear fallout. Now there's a sobering thought!!

Miranda Rose Smith

Dear Wonderer: Very good points. No IRA man ever wanted England wiped off the map, though the IRA committed terrorist acts in Britain. And Israel IS the canary in the coal mine. Europe IS next on the Islamofascist hitlist.

Ronnie

Well, I'm glad that most of us are happy with the current and endless principled, bloody stalemate. Absolutely no need to change anything, just carry on as we are. With principle. Excellent! I'm sure all our Gods are pleased with that.

Ann

Ronnie, ever read the Hamas charter? Indeed, can you read?

Richard

Ann (and others): there's no valid defence of the Hamas constitution. But the long-term solution is either to kill hundreds of thousands of people (and thereby recruit millions more to the cause) - or to start talking in an attempt to persuade them that eliminating Israel is neither a good idea nor feasible. It slightly baffles me that people equate talking with appeasement. Diplomacy and change can only happen through dialogue; appeasement is giving in to demands in an attempt to mollify an opponent. Can you no see that they're two different things?

Roy

It has to be mentioned (along with others)that one of the reasons the IRA came to a settlement was that their American funds and support came to a full stop. The honorable gorilla leader was cold shouldered on his last mission for further support, and must have been told to come to an agreement. Otherwise Americans generally would be on the Irish side, for as usual, not knowing the full story.

Stephen Rothbart

It seems to me that Richard and people like him, completely misread the basic tenets of Islam. Most western democracies are democracies because their laws take supremacy over religion. With very few exceptions, like Turkey, Islam is the only guiding principle for the adherents to that faith, and Turkey is now currently in a fight to keep it that way.

Islam, is an excpetion and nothing like Christianity or most of Judaic teaching. It has to dominate everyone's life. Yes Christians and Jews may co-exist and even, in some Islamic countries, can prosper, but always under the rule of the dominant religion of Islam.

To take Richard's point to its logical conclusion, we can have peace with Islam, and possibly some Jews and Christians can stay in the Middle East, but only if we all submit to Islam.

If that is the price for peace with this movement, so be it, but just so we know what it entails.

THat is what Israel is being asked to do. Well Richard? Would you?

Adam B.

Ahad, thanks for reminding us about the grotesque and racist Hamas charter. People forget too quickly the kind of extremism that threatens Israel and the West.

Ronnie

So, Stephen Rothbart, Ann (of the rapier wit) and others. Your only answer seems to be, very simply, a mindless acceptance of the current stasis of death, death and more death.

Mladen Andrijasevic

I am not sure that I quite understand the logic of the Commons International Development Select Committee which decided to talk to Hamas. Article 7 of the Hamas Charter reads: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/hamas.htm
The Prophet, Allah bless him and grant him salvation, has said: "The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem).

Since the above are the words of the Prophet Muhammad taken from
Sahih Bukhari :Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/052.sbt.html#004.052.177 apparently Hamas is not going to abandon them.

However, do the members of the committee believe that Hamas is going to change its Charter or do they believe that having killing of Jews enshrined in the Charter of the organization they are wiling to talk to as no big deal? Which is it?

Sergey

Richard, killing of hundred thousand of active terrorists WILL NOT recruit millions more to the cause, but will completely subjugate and demoralise terrorists wannabies. Exactly this way Japan aggression was terminated. Remember Hiroshima?

Sergey

Ronnie, it is always better to do nothing than to do silly thing, which can only make everything worse.

Harvey

Sure talk to Hamas ,but only when they revoke their Charter and accept a permanent two state solution ie no temporary Hudna . Furthermore a total decommissioning of arms as exemplified by the IRA.

Only on that basis can the West speak to Hamas or any of the other terrorist entities.

Of course the likelihood of any of these prerequisites ever gaining favour with Hamas are about zero.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Richard and Ronnie, you are overlooking that dialogue takes two. Israel has been begging for dialogue since 1948. And Israel has done more to facilitate a Palestinian state than any country or people in the world, including the Arab states and the PA leadership.

The response of the Arabs has been "first give us everything we demand, then maybe we'll talk". About what? About whether they will continue trying to destroy the Jewish State (excuse me, Zionist Entity)?

Hussein Massawi, the Hezbollah leader said 'We are not fighting so that you will offer us something. We are fighting to eliminate you.' What reason is there apart from wishful thinking to believe that he did not mean it, or that we can change his mind by talking? Do you think he is lying? His actions show he means it. Do you think his beliefs are so cheap to him that he would sell them out? That sounds like ethnocentricism on your part. Or do you simply think that Jewish life is cheaper than yours, cheap enough to be sacrificed needlessly on the altar of delusion, pretension and smug quasi-pacifist moral superiority?

Ronnie the pretentuious smug quasi-pacifist

There are two ways this can end. The second way is where everyone, and I mean everyone, gets blown up.

Harvey

Daniel Pipes commented 'That in order to win the Peace one must first win the War '.Hamas first and foremost must be dissuaded from their resolve that there can ever be more then a two state solution .Israels hesitancy in recent years has only encouraged Hamas in their belligerancy and determination to destroy the state . That this position is unlikely to see fruition is quite irrelevant,Their stance is a stumbling block to ever finding a just solution for both sides .
In order to bring about this desired solution,Hamas must be removed from the equation and a genuine partner for peace enjoined in negotiation and willingness to arrive at a just settlement.Again the chances of this happening are negligible and Israels failure to put pay to Hamas will guarantee that this Vicious Circle of atrocity and clumsy response will carry on for the forseeable future.

Ann

"start talking in an attempt to persuade them that eliminating Israel is neither a good idea ..."

LOL. That's two pretentious smug quasi-pacifists. I assume you'll offer them a lolly when they accept your word that it's not a good idea.

Ann

Yes, Ahad, that is basically what they think: Jewish lives are cheaper. You can see it all over these threads from the usual suspects. They are very easy to spot, imo.

phil

Does anyone here have a practical solution to the problems with hesbullah and hamas? -its all very well not wishing to talk ,but other than imposing extreme sanctions on the population or all out war to impose military rule all I can see is year on year killings and misery for both sides .I have no wish to elevate either of those parties to a position of respectability as I utterly despise them and their objectives ,nevertheless one can only try for peace with one,s enemies not one,s friends

.If we are to effect change in the charters of these people some discussion needs to take place and that does not mean backing down on our principles .Education ,the hope of a better standard of living and peace rather than war and isolation eventually will drive the population to demand change ,but they have to see it is a possibility and at the moment they can see nothing but that isolation. Until such time as we can stop the process of indoctrination to hate both Israel and the West nothing will change for the better.

For most human beings a good standard of living ,security and a future for their children is what is important to them ,hamas and hesbullah do not provide any of that ,so when the population sees that they can change their lives for the better maybe then we will see the change we all hope for ,and I emphasise maybe -If not then at least we will know exactly where we stand .So far not one poster has offered a different solution .

I suppose I will get inevitably a barrage of hate filled comments and pseudo-intellectual criticism from the usual suspects but this time I hope they will pause to think if they have a better solution ,particularly as I have at least as strong a reason to see peace in that region as themselves .

Alexandrovich

Commendable Phil. The wind of change contains fresh air which can be pleasant to inhale.

phil

Alexandrovich THANK YOU

Ann

I see that Phil has learned some strategy, and is getting his retaliation in first.

phil

Just the truth Ann-how sad that is all you can say

BJ

The report seems thoroughly sensible, particularly on the continued expansion of the illegal settlements and the obligations on Israel to comply with international law.
The upgrading of the EU/Israel association agreement should indeed be out of the question.
On talking to Hamas, this is of course, something the Israelis do from time to time not least when negotiating the recent ceasefire in Gaza.
By the way who is Stephen Crabb and does anyone care?

Alexandrovich

"I see that Phil has learned some strategy..." No. Don't think so. Too honest for that. Anyway, it's only a blog.

"...and is getting his retaliation in first."

Says nothing about Phil, but sure as hell explains a lot about your posts.

Adam B.

BJ, the Jewish presence in Judea and Samaria is NOT illegal. The collective punishment of Jews at the hands of the racist and fascistic Hizbollah and Hamas IS illegal.

Chaiim

Surely the difference between North Ireland and Israel bears on the fact that

a) Support for the IRA amongst Catholics in Northern Ireland was heading towards single digit figures whereas Hamas support is very high

b) Emergence of growing real live and let live womens groups comprising committed Catholics and Protestants (so unlike the left-wing surrender groups in Israel)

Chaiim

phil

Very recently I have had the good fortune to meet socially some young Iranian people working in Europe and was astonished to find how educated and pleasant they were -Their description of Iran was very different from the one we all have come to accept -they say that 70 percent of the population have nothing to do with Islam ,want a new regime and fair elections and obviously have admiration for the western way of life

-so what do we do to encourage this population to find a way out of this isolation that the mullahs have brought about .I have to say it was a shock for me to see such a different picture than I had anticipated because I know I had started out with a prejudicial view of them -They are also the victims of this crazy regime and perhaps we need to offer help to the appropriate sections there rather than threats to those that do not represent the views of the majority -I realise it was a snapshot view but I know many of their friends and my view is in accord with those I trust -My point is talk and communication can only help ,in this case it was to those who wish to talk and eventually it is them who will bring influence to bear on the masses