Refugees from whom?

Bogdan of Australia

This is simply BEYOND PARODY!!!

Herbert Thornton

"Surreal?" Yes, of course it's surreal. But is it any more surreal than Britain's policy of welcoming and lavishing generous amounts of money, housing and health care on the kinds of immigrants, asylum claimers and others whose attitude towards Britain is one of ill-will and worse?

ajmalkov

Exhibit A of why all anti-Zionists are full of crap.

If Israel is so brutal, why are people literally dying to get into the country?

What a mix of emotions this story evokes. Pride, horror, black humor, disbelief.

Mel, wherever you are, this just about says it all.

Ben

There are several precedents to Israel giving refuge to PLO/Fatah members on humanitarian grounds. The most significant occured during Black September in 1970, when the Jordanian Army killed many thousands of Palestinians, mostly civilians, and drove the PLO out of Jordan. Hundreds of PLO members crossed the Jordan river and requested asylum from Israel.

Then, as now, the British media was silent.

phil

A pure illustration of the difference in morality of the Israelis and the Islamists

Geoff M

I appreciate your sense of confusion Melanie but we have long given up on rationality and decency in Palestien and balance and decency at the BBC.

I suppose the UK could take them in. And their extended families, and their friends and heighbours - hell, why not take all of them in, that would solve the problem wouldnt it?

PS I'm writing this from France.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Just a few words: The Israelis must be nuts !!!!!

ann

And where's the hysterical patricia now?

Robbit

And this is what the taxpayer is subsidising via British, EU and UN aid to the Palestinians and our Gordon Brown has pledged an _additional_ £30 million of British taxpayers money for the same purpose. Wwe have a Foreign Secretary who believes in opening up dialogue with Hamas, and who additionally believes in the absurd doctrine that the world can by-off Palestinian extremism by feeding ever more money to the Palestinians so that that they can enjoy economic prosperity while their young men contribute nothing to it but simply continue waging their terrorist war of extermination against Israel while we indirectly subsidize them through our aid programmes.

And all the Beeb can do this morning is echo whinges that Israel might try to get information from those who lives it is saving. It has every right to do so.

Utterly beyond parody. It is a disgrace and I am fed up to the back teeth.

Alexandrovich

"And where's the hysterical patricia now?"

I Don't know. Maybe she has a life.

phil

Alexandrovich
August 4th, 2008 11:43am
"And where's the hysterical patricia now?"

I Don't know. Maybe she has a life.---------------------------------------------------------------------well something surprising happens every day

Dr Ridley

Of course the revolting BBC would argue that because of the damned "occupation" Palestinians are incapable of exercising moral choice and judgement which is the sole preserve of white men (mainly Americans) and joos.

The bias is so transparent it is almost embarrassing. Well done Mel for pointing it out so clearly.

MartinW

Why is this not a top news item on the BBC, followed by a full discussion on Newsnight or the like? Stupid question!
This tells us all we need to know about the pro-"Palestinian" stance of that discredited organisation. I suppose we should at least be grateful for the absence of Bowen on-screen telling us it is all Israel's fault.
If there is one thing the Conservatives must do on taking office is to replace the present ineffectual Trust, with a body that will ensure balance in reporting. And have an effective rolling audit of output.

Miranda Rose Smith

It would be suicidal of Israel to take them in. Once that precedent was set, any "Palestinian" with a paper cut could demand asylum in Israel, till enough of them got in and they could start killing Jews. Ehud Olmert is mush-headed enough, and a big enough kowtower to world opinion, to take them in. I believe they should all be sent to Jordan, which is three fifths of mandatory Palestine and 98 percent Arab. I've been saying for years that Jordan is Palestine. Have a nice vacation, Melanie.

Miranda Rose Smith

What do you call genocide when its your own genus?

stanley Jerusalem

Miranda:-"What do you call genocide when its your own genus?"
Suicide - but I'm not really bothered. Think of all those virgins, my dear.

George Steiner

Take no prisoners, nor refugees.

liamjq

and not a word about the egyptians blowing up a smuggling tunnel with people in it,killing five. If the joos had done that it would be genocidal crime against humanity screamed from the roof of broadcast house by bowen and all those other dhimmis

FinanceDoc

I imagine BBC writers and editors must have called an emergency weekend meeting to discuss the situation and come up with some way to spin the story so as to demonize Israel.

Fortunately, the pseudo-human rights NGO Physicians for Human Rights came up with an angle in the nick of time: you see, according to PHR, the IDF is threatening to withhold medical treatment unless the refugees agree to act as "collaborators" and provide intelligence to the big bad Israelis. Ah yes, heaven forbid we learn who from Hamas is actually shooting at the Fatah members.

Whew! That was a close one but the BBC never disappoints the Jew haters of the world.

ann

Oh,Alexandrovich, you big kidder!

Hereford

If you hate the BBC's bais, do what I have done. I have dumped all telly's and only watch programmes on-line now. You can watch most stuff from BBC, ITV and Channel 4 either streamed or, in the case of the BBC, downloaded or streamed.

I don't pay any licence fee so I no longer fund the BBC's prejudices.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

"Jordan...is three-fifths of mandatory Palestine and 98% Arab. I've been saying for years that Jordan is Palestine.". Hear! hear! Miranda, I've been saying it too!

Harvey

Israeli hospitals have highly developed and experienced trauma departments specialising in gunshot and shrapnel wounds .

Seriously where would you go if you had a bullet in the Tuchas.

Moses

Israel... with its iron commitment to human rights.

Superb irony, Melanie.

John Edwards

If you could resist the gloating over the internal problems of the Palestinians you could see that it is a problem relating to the activities of a clan based grouping.

As Israel has given asylum to a Russian convicted of several murders in a Russian court, a few more shouldn't make any difference

Hashalom

Children taught hatred through the last 60 years, incapable of discerning any positive progress in their struggle aginst their enemy israel, are bound to turn their frustation on their indoctrinators/Leaders. Fratricide is inevitable.

Richard

"What is that unfamiliar sound emanating from all those who routinely scream that Israel kills Palestinian children? It is called silence."

Isn't the point that we would reluctantly expect as much from terrorists, but expect better of a putatively liberal-democratic state?

Hugh

Ahh! I see that we have John Edwards, another independent mind, pointing out that Israel probably was less than humane in allowing the Pals to cross the border under fire. John, please enlighten us about the Russian murderer Israel is sheltering.

Melanie, no matter what Israel does or doesn't do, there's always a John Edwards around to put a negative spin on it. Maybe he's a BBC employee.

Marian Lebor

From the BBC news website reporting on Hamas and Fatah infighting:

"Hamas fighters had tried to storm the family home of the Hilles clan in Gaza City on Saturday morning, using grenades and mortars, reports say.
A spokesman for the Hamas-run interior ministry accused the clan of hiding bombing suspects in its compound.
"The Hilles family has become a military force and members of the family have been attacking, abducting and even killing people," spokesman Ehab al-Ghasin said."

“…abducting and even killing people’. Goodness me. Whoever heard of such things? Sounds too terrible.

Any chance the Palestinians could use the cameras given them to by B’tselem (the Israeli human rights organisation) to film some of these abuses? The results could be shown on the Guardian website alongside the Palestinians' film of IDF abuses that has been showing all week.

Judy from Israel

thank you melanie for trying to show that the image portrayed of Israel as "bad" is truly made by the press who have double standards!!

Daniel Polwarth

I like follow developments with the Israelis and the Palestinians, and over the years my opinion has changed. I used to be one of the fools that assumed that Israel was the villain, but then that was the line being peddled by the BBC at the time. Looking online, there are a greater variety of views expressed, and this is healthy for the argument.

In my opinion, there are too many people shouting at once taking extreme positions on both sides. This is not helpful, and not conducive to a solution.

Clearly the Palestinians are utterly insane with hatred, and I don't agree with the eager excuses being made by the BBC that these people are only behaving the way they are because of the pressure placed on them by the Israelis. They are capable of making rational decisions like the rest of us. They have the sympathy of the world, except America. If they were politically smart, they could have achieved a lasting, peaceful settlement. But there are too many Muslims with vested interests in violence and their victim status to allow that to happen.

On the other hand, Israel does itself no favours. It clearly does not care about what the rest of the world thinks, and it has an extremely poor PR wing (unlike the Palestinians, who are superb at playing the media.) Also, the Israelis aren't thinking rationally either: this is not a war they can win by military force. Force will produce a stalemate, but not a solution. It's satisfying to strike back when attacked, but it can also be counterproductive politically.

I have a lot of sympathy for the Israeli position. I am writing from the UK, and I can tell you that I harboured a great deal of hatred for the Irish when they were running their bombing campaigns. You begin to suspect everyone with an Irish accent as being a villain. People who have not lived under the threat of terrorism simply do not get the animosity that develops, even toward people who wish you no harm. I still don't trust the Irish, even with the peace process in place. I can therefore totally understand the Israeli's animosity towards the Palestinians.

Ultimately, though, both sides will have to come to an arrangement if there is to be peace. This means there will have to be a level of trust between them. If this is going to be hard for the Israelis, it is going to be almost impossible for the Palestinians as their entire cultural identity has been brought up on hate. To seek peace for them is to lose face. Good luck with that.

The only other fly in the ointment is America. Usually an excellent negotiator, the American pro-Israel line is actually very damaging for Israel in PR terms. You feel that the Palestinians, even if they turned over a new leaf and renounced violence, would not get a fair shake if America was doing the negotiations. In many ways, American bias is as much a stumbling block to peace as anything else.

Don't get me wrong: I'm a big fan of America. I just feel on the Israel issue they would be wise to play a quiet background role, and pass the negotiating process over to a genuinely neutral party. Unfortunately, neutral parties on the Middle East question are very, very hard to find.

I'm glad that the hypocrisy of the Palestinians are being exposed in articles such as this. But it is disappointing that the people exposing this hypocrisy are not the mainstream media, but a lone commentator. Still, Melanie Phillips is doing more for the Israeli cause in PR terms than the Israelis are themselves. Which should be a concern for anyone who favours a rational, political outcome to this mess.

Paul L

The judge should say loud and clear to these animals "You made your bed - now go and lie in it" and send them back.

patricia

Did Madness Inc Herself say

Israel - with its iron commitment to human rights?

Did Mel really say that?

Must be a joke.

Haha - yes, very funny!

Commondog

patricia.

At long last.

Is that all you have on this?

Ann

"but then that was the line being peddled by the BBC at the time"

I hate to disabuse you, but 'at the time' is totally wrong: it has been the case for many decades and it still is their line. They are antisemitic to the core.

Israel doesn't care what the world thinks. Exactly, and exactly right. If it did, it would not exist now. It exists because it refuses to commit suicide, which is what the world wants.

Israel doesn't strike back because it is 'satisfying', but because that way it weakens the enemy. History proves this every time, going back to the 1920s or even further back.

Murray Smith

If Melanie Phillips would remove her blinkers and read more especially the fact that
Israel pressured Palestinians from Gaza by only offering medical treatment in return for becoming an informant. So much for Israel's iron committment to human rights. Oh yes, then there is the Israeli soldier who shot a bound Palestinian young man at close range, and the 10 year old shot dead because he was throwing stones at soldiers. Human rights? I think not......

Mladen Andrijasevic

The sarcastic comments on the Israeli commitment to human rights come from people who are either just ignorant or are willfully hateful. We sometimes lose perspective in the differences in the religion and culture. Brigitte Gabriel, who is a Lebanese Christian, points them out. Her experience in Lebanon and Israel:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sL54rHPwqA

“Had I not had the opportunity for an up-close and personal experience with the Israelis, I would have had nothing by which to judge or compare what I was being told by my society.
My eyes were opened when I spent 22 days in a hospital in northern Israel in the early 1980's. I watched unbelievably as Israeli doctors treated my mother wounded by an artillery shell before he treated the wounded Israeli soldier lying next to her. They treated Lebanese Muslims and Palestinian militia fighters on a par with wounded IDF soldiers. I was shocked that this enemy, hated by the Arabs, treated us all with utmost courtesy, compassion, and respect. It was a transforming experience countering the lies and all the propaganda that I had been indoctrinated in as a child.” http://loudspeak.blogspot.com/2005/06/brigitte-gabriel-vs-columbia.html

Carol

Wait! Are you ready for this 'irony'? Israel saved the Hilles family, but they won't save Shalit! Many of the Palestinians, by the way, are going to be taken by Iceland and Sweden, reportedly.
To this day, how many countries would take in fleeing Israelis?

Carol

There is one more thing I would like to say.I hope, Hamas isn't infiltrating into Israel this way.
Yes, they would shoot their own to get them into Israel.
The hate of the NGO's and the UN and the diplomatic corps can only be assessed as a disease, and congenital in many cases.
Israel should just deport them, or disinvite them to leave.The Saudis are suicidal in wanting Israel's demise, in effect, or on insisting they accept without question the parameters of a peace agreement
they designed.It would serve to keep the focus of the Arab/Muslim peons diverted, but if Israel's borders are overwhelmed, the Saudis' Western flank and the trade-sea routes unfettered by Iran,who can block them from shipping their lifeline of oil if Israel
perishes.The Suez would also be in jeopardy.The US and coalition troops would loose their Southern safeguard and high-tech advantages. The Jews
must insist the world look at realities. The Jews were not put on Earth to be a diversion and an object of Hate.
It is as hurtful to the hater as it is to the Jews.In fact, it is moreso.He who holds the hate self-destructs.To live a life based on this endless obsession only destroys one.The Jews in the meantime, continually move ahead.

Daniel Polwarth

Ann,

I appreciate your perspective, I really do, but I think you are too close to the problem. You are thinking the way I used to think back in the bad old days of Irish terrorism. At the time it seemed to me that if people threaten you with violence, the best response is to give them a bloody nose. It's a natural reaction. I was deeply frustrated at the kid gloves my government showed to these people. In the long run, those same terrorists renounced violence without getting what they wanted, and are serving in government alongside the people they were trying to kill. So I guess I was wrong: restraint can work.

You have to remember, Israel is not alone in the world. If it plays its cards right, it does not have to fight back at all - public opinion is a far better weapon than a gun or a bomb.

Don't believe me? Then ask yourself this: why is it that the Palestinians are so loved and lauded around the world, despite being thugs, terrorists and religious fanatics? They have a weak military, cannot possibly hope to destroy Israel through military means, and yet they are hugely influential. Israel, on the other hand, with all its military might, is an international Pariah.

So tell me, if guns and bombs are so effective, why is it that Israel is struggling against such a weak enemy?

It comes down to propoganda. I cannot understand how the Israelis have allowed the Palestinians to trump them in the media stakes. Israelis are very smart, and yet they have allowed this to happen. I just don't get it.

If Israel could get world opinion on its side, the money pouring in to Hamas would dry up. The lecturers telling the world about the evil Israelis would turn to some other cause celebre. In short, people would just let the whole matter disappear. You know as well as I do that Muslims have killed many more Palestinians than the Israelis - the facts are on your side. So use them!

I think the danger is that Israel is beginning to see itself as a victim, standing alone in the world. You are not. People would support you, but you have to tell your side of the story. If Israel spent as much time on propoganda as it does on military ventures, the sting would have been taken out of the Palestinian tail long ago.

That's not to say a strong military isn't a necessity for Israel. Of course it is. And you should in no way appease the terrorists. But you should learn to play the game. Fatah and Hamas are past masters of the game of propoganda. By comparison, Israel is losing the media war hand over fist, and doesn't seem to care.

If you really want to win a lasting, peaceful settlement, then start fighting the Palestinians where it really hurts them: in the media. And yes, I agree with you the BBC is deeply biased against Israel. The question is, what are you going to do about it?

That's the media war. Start fighting it.

Ann

Daniel,
I see the merits of your position, although I disagree with some of your points. I don't have time right now to discuss this in detail, but let me say this: I can assure you that much of the 'sympathy' for the 'Palestinians' is simply hatred for Israel's Jews, i.e. old-fashioned antisemitism: you can see this very clearly when you listen to and read the profoundly psychotic language used against Israel. It is mirrored on this blog by those who crawl out of the woodwork to demonise Israel. It is a staple of the BBC and the Independent, and more often than not the Guardian.

It is repeated in posts such as those from Murray, who has never had to face gangs of youngsters throwing stones and ball bearings. I would love to see his bravery in the real world, rather than posting from a computer in his mum's safe loft in Twickenham.

I am a little puzzled by the statement that I am 'too close' to the issue. Are you saying that someone very familiar with an issue is thereby handicapped when commenting on it?

Dr Ridley

Daniel, thanks for your thoughtful posts.

But to quote Golda: Bad press is better than a good epitaph.

Exactly.

Go Israel!

Si, N

Daniel Polwarth, there's something deeply unsettling about what you write - though I can't quite put my finger on it.

Maybe it's just the outright racism implicit in the statement, ' Palestinians are so loved and lauded around the world, despite being thugs, terrorists and religious fanatics'.

Well, we sure as hell know where you stand on the issue - clearly in your view ALL Palestinians deserve to die - you're not one for moderation then?

You claim:

'If Israel could get world opinion on its side, the money pouring in to Hamas would dry up. The lecturers telling the world about the evil Israelis would turn to some other cause celebre. In short, people would just let the whole matter disappear'.

You see there is something just plain wrong in such an assertion. You're suggesting that those who point out any perceived inequity in this conflict do so because one side or other is seen to be more adept at presenting a favourable public image. That is quite wrong. People highlight injustice because it's an injustice. You may reduce everything to little more than a badge-wearing opportunity, but some of us are actually eager to find a resolution that sees all those concerned - Palestinian and Israeli alike - enjoying an ACTUAL peaceful existence - not just some media concocted FABRICATION. Understand this, it is the gross misrepresentations of the 'media war' that so prolong this miserable episode - merely adding to the misrepresentations will not improve the situation - but then, I don't suppose that bothers such an obvious wind-up merchant like you.

CRUCIALLY, about the assertion:

'(y)ou know as well as I do that Muslims have killed many more Palestinians than the Israelis - the facts are on your side.'

Let me demonstrate to you what utter garbage is that statement. Between the years 2000-2008 a total of 4748 Palestinians were killed by 'Israelis' - (of those, 1658 were involved in hostilities - 2219 were not involved in hostilities). In the same period, 577 Palestinians have died by the hand of a Palestinian (or Muslim as you phrase it). Can you manage to interpret those figures? Let me assist - you were out by a factor approaching 10. In fact, more Palestinian children (948) were killed by Israelis in that period than Palestinian by Palestinians. Now do you see how completely ridiculous is your post.

Btw, this is not propaganda - merely the statement of facts - if world opinion is critical of Israel it is so because of such telling statistics - not because Israel is less competent at PR. Frankly, were it not for the carnage it seeks to conceal, professing that Palestine trumps Israel 'in the media stakes' would be quite comical. I suggest you take a break and get clued-up. Try looking at the work of Greg Philo and the Glasgow University Media Group if you really want to appreciate how Palestine/Israel plays in the media.

Oh, & Daniel, in the mean time, don't offer your 'propoganda' (sic) skills in the service of Israel - she'd be dead as a dodo by years end.

You were correct in one thing though; you ' just don't get it'.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Well, "we sure as hell know where [Si,N] stands" with his "she'd [Israel,presumably] be dead as a dodo by year's end".

As with all the Fiskites (like patricia, mike and others), he's
wishfully thinking out loud. They're all just a bunch of ill-wishers where Jews are concerned, whether in Israel or elsewhere. That's the basis of it, and it would be the same if little green Martians were substituted for "Palestinins" !

'Am yisrael chai'- the nation of Israel (in this context, the whole Jewish people)lives !

Ann

Si,N whines about racism!
Byond parody.

Ann

Quite so, Ben-Tsiyon. Whatever ridiculous little people like Greg Philo and his hangers-on splutter and screech.

Adam B.

Sin, Mr Polwarth's statement that '(y)ou know as well as I do that Muslims have killed many more Palestinians than the Israelis - the facts are on your side' is completely factual and accurate. Perhaps you have forgotten that in the early 1970's, King Hussein of Jordan expelled the PLO from his country, killing more than 10,000 Palestinians IN A SINGLE MONTH! (Hence the name of the terrorist branch of the PLO, Black September, the group that murdered the Israeli Olympic team in 1972). This was after Arafat had made a play for power in Jordan. There were no emergency UN sessions, no hysterical condemnation of Jordan from the left media, no demonstrations, because Israel couldn't be blamed for it. I'm afraid it is you who is peddling "utter garbage".

FinanceDoc

Irony is obviously lost on SiN who claims that the public view of the ME conflict is not heavily influenced by propaganda and then -- in an effort to belittle Daniel Polwarth's quite correct assertion that Muslims have killed more Palestinians than have Israelis -- passes a massive propaganda pill. While many Palestinians were killed over the eight years of the Arafat and Hamas-led intifada – a period during which over 1,000 Israeli civilians were murdered by Palestinian suicide bombers on buses, at discos, shopping malls, and weddings – an estimated 5,000-10,000 Palestinian Arabs were killed by the Jordanian army in 1970 (“Black September”) and perhaps 30,000-40,000 Arabs with a heavy Palestinian contingent were massacred in a single day in Hama Syria in 1982 by Hafez Assad. Needless to say, these chapters in Palestinian history have been heavily suppressed by both the Arab media and the Arabist toadies at the BBC.

And while there is no end to the publicity provided the Palestinian “nakba” resulting from the invasion by 5 Arab armies intent on genocide at Israel’s birth, how many people are even aware that over 400,000 Palestinian Arabs were expelled from Kuwait in one week following the first Gulf War due to Arafat’s support of Saddam Hussein?

Media propaganda is not only essential to the Arab cause in this conflict, it is key to the very perpetuation of the conflict because so many Western observers have no clue for example, that the Palestinian Arabs have been offered and violently rejected their own state many times over the last 70 years beginning with the Peel Commission in the 1930s. These historical facts have been distorted beyond recognition or successfully obliterated by a global media which absurdly and obsessively fetishes the Palestinian Arabs.

Mladen Andrijasevic

From this week's comment by the editor of the Jerusalem Post, David Horovitz:

"Israel supplies fuel to Gaza - and has its fuel delivery men shot dead by Gaza gunmen. It supplies electricity to Gaza - and has its power station targeted by rockets manufactured with that electricity. And this week, Israel rescued some of its enemies from Gaza, saving the from likely murder at the hands of even worse enemies, and we witnessed scenes of utter absurdity in which Gaza gunmen, injured in their violent struggle with Hamas, sat up in their Israel hospital beds and told the TV crews that they thanked the lord that the Jewish state had bee there to save them."

Ann

Come on, Adam, you and I know full well that both Black September and Hama were plotted and carried out by Mossad. As were the tsunami and the latest earthquake in California. And the credit crunch is a conspiracy by the Joos to take over the solar system.

Adam B.

Ann, ssh! Don't tell everyone!

I find the silence from SiN deafening. Will he admit his mistake?

nameless

I'd put money on a bet stating that at least one of these refugees will still go on record as saying that Israel and all of its inhabitants must die.

go figure

Ann

Admit his mistake? LOL.
Was that a pink elephant flying past my window just now?

phil

Daniel Polwarth-A lot of common sense -,I also have wondered for years why Israel continues to disengage from the propaganda war ,but as Ann has pointed out ,perhaps they have given up an uneven battle where the anti Israelis write whatever they want and are listened to by the fools like SIn -we will never persuade people like that who just feed on their own hatred and then turn truth into lies ,nevertheless it is refreshing to read others writing what I think to -well said .

michael

Commondog -

You mocked those who reminded us that Israel is in a fine position to go round pretending to be bastion of human rights -

Might I ask you how the shooting of a Palestinian at point blank range furthers Israel's commitment to human rights?

A Human

OH COME ON! Mel we are not all fools, that we will fall for this feable attempt of self gratification.

Fatah is supported,funded and millitarily backed by Israel, by allowing them in, all Israel is doing is providing support to its proxy mercenaries.

THIS ARTICLE IS THE PARODY, because Israel provided support to a couple of people not refugess. But ISRAEL HAS CREATED MIILIONS OF REFUGEES, The irony is that a refugee is someone who runs from their own home to find sanctuary in a distant land, but ISRAEL IS WITHHOLDING MILLIONS OF PALESTINIANS FROM THERE OWN HOME. AFTER MAKING THEM REFUGEES.

Ann

I see that the rabid antisemites have crawled out, peddling the usual lies.
Israel didn't make anyone refugees, least of all the mythical 'Palestinians'. The Arabs left to enable the Arab armies to slaughter all the Jews. They failed, and the genocidal maniacs pay the price for their genocidal plan's failure. Cry me a river.
They could have been resettled 100 times over by their disgustingly rich brethren. That's what Israel did with the hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees from various Middle Eastern hellholes.

Daniel Polwarth

Ann said:

"see that the rabid antisemites have crawled out, peddling the usual lies."

Okay, let's calm things down a bit. I would like to think that most people are not antisemites. Even those people who really, truly feel that the Israelis are the bad guys are not really antisemites. How do I know? Because I used to be one of them. I really, sincerely believed that Israel was evil, and that the Palestinians were the victims.

My mind changed after reading some American blogs. For the first time, I noticed that there was another side to the argument. And when you realise how Muslims have happily condemned the Palestinians over the years to a life of misery to promote their own agenda, the scales begin to drop from your eyes. The truth is, Muslims are as cruel and wicked to the Palestinians as any Israeli has ever been.

But it doesn't help to insult people. If someone believes that Israel is in the wrong, then it is up to Israelis to meet them half-way and try to persuade them otherwise. Don't dismiss them as Jew-haters. Listen to their arguments. For example, very few people know about the massacre by the Jordanians. It's one of those infuriating 'details' that spoil the Muslim victimhood narrative. How could their Muslim brothers slaughter them more than the Israelis? It's doesn't fit, so it gets ignored. Bring it up, air it, let people here your side.

Dialogue, not guns, tends to be the road to peace. Military force wins out in the short term, but it breeds uneasiness and contempt on both sides. You can't bomb someone into agreeing with you. The IRA learned that lesson. Ironically, Sinn Fein are exceptionally cunning, Machiavellian politicians. They could, and did, achieve far more through peaceful negotiation than they ever did through bombing. But ultimately, they did not get what they wanted. That's because dialogue requires compromise on both sides.

So here it is: if you really want to live with peace and dignity, you might have to give a few things up. You might have to give up the attitude that you are staunch defenders of a religious birthright. Those fairytales have to go, and go first. I'm pretty much an atheist, and I have no time for religion being used to justify anything.

Second, you will have to stop expanding settlements. It looks bad. Think of it this way: in time, with peace established, Jewish people can still have places established in that territory. The difference is, you'll be living alongside neighbours in peace, not walling yourself in against them.

Finally, look at the upside: Israel will no longer be blamed for the worlds ills. Uncomfortable truths about the way Muslims have treated Palestinians will be aired. People will listen to your side, and find themselves disgusted at the way they were manipulated by terrorist propoganda.

You give something up, to be sure, but you get so much more back in return. Everybody wins, apart from Hamas and Fatah. They suddenly find they have to start justifying their oppressive reign on their countrymen.

This is not some sort of road map to peace I'm suggesting. There are far better people out there who can do that. I'm just throwing up ideas. But I'm trying to get people to see it from a fresh point of view.

And if you are browsing this site and you are one of those who believe Israel is a villain, then please consider what I have said. I am not some tool for the Israelis. I don't agree with everything they do. But by and large, they are the most civilised people in the Middle East. They do not deserve their reputation. If you hate Israel, I suggest you do some balanced research. It may not change your mind, but it will give you a new perspective on a story whose narrative has been told exclusively by thugs and terrorists.

When I said in an earlier post that people get too close to a conflict to understand it, I guess that sounds condescending. Maybe that was a bit glib. But I know that I feel differently about Irish terrorists than I did when they were threatening to bomb me, and I think you will see things differently to if and when peace is finally established in the Middle East.

Perspective is everything.

Si, N

Dear Peter Hoskins,

I see that a post of mine circa 5:15pm 11 Aug has failed to show up - is there a particular reason for that?

Regards

Si,N

In the meantime - Daniel, I don't agree with all you say - but nonetheless I owe you an apology.

Sincerely

Ann

"Muslims are as cruel and wicked to the Palestinians as any Israeli has ever been"

What a lot of nonsense you do talk, Daniel. The Arabs have been 100 times more cruel to their brothers, the so-called 'Palestinians', than the Israelis ever were. It wasn't Israel who condemned the 'Palestinians' to 60 years in camps: it was the Arabs who did it.

Religious birthright? Utter nonsense. You really do need to read some history. The Jews are there because it's their national homeland, just as the Irish are in Ireland and the Chinese are in China.

And btw, I am an atheist.

The Jews do not need to be nice to those who seek to kill them (read the Hamas charter recently?).

Moreover, I will continue to refer to obvious antisemites, on this blog as elsewhere, as antisemites. Jew haters stand out like a sore thumb, and no amount of rationalisation ("We only hate Isr... oops ... object to Israel's genocidal policies towards the poor, downtrodden, completely innocent Arabs" will ever cut the mustard with me.

Ann

PS. That other nonsense, compromise: another example of your ignorance of ME history. Israel has compromised a hell of a lot more than the Arabs ever did, even though it is the victim. Look up November 1947, for example. But there comes a point when the victim of attempted genocide has to say ENOUGH. To here, and NO MORE.

Adam B.

A Human, Israel did not create millions of refugees. Read a reputable book on the topic.

There are more Jewish refugees from Arab nations than Arab refugees from Israel. The difference is that the Jews were forced to flee, whereas the Arab refugees were urged to leave by the Arab governments who launched the war of annihilation against Israel in 1948. Israel absorbed the Jewish refugees, the Arab world has yet to absorb its people, preferring to maintain them as political tools against Israel. The Palestinian Arabs could have been living as full citizens of a dozen Arab countries for the last 60 years. I would also like to ask - can one be a refugee from a place one has never been?

From another human.

Ann

No, Adam, one cannot. Claiming otherwise merely goes to show the double standards at play here. How many people do we see screeching about the poor German 3rd generation 'refugees' from East Prussia?

Adam B.

michael, might I ask you how the widespread use of torture by the Palestinian Authority is conducive to human rights? We can either have a silly, selective and ultimately meaningless list of accusations or we could have a grown up discussion looking at the entire Middle East and human rights. Which would you prefer? By the way, we're still waiting for you to admit your mistake on Mr Pollard's thread.

A human

Adam and Anne-
what a lovely couple you make.

I really do not know what books you are reading. But reality is not as tempered as your position.

Firstly you talk of Arabs not being soaked in by Arabs, this statement clarifies the simple view you have of the world, the Arabs unlike the Anglo-Saxons are a very diverse group of people due to centuries of integrating with the people from Spain all the way to Persia.
But the important part is that they are Palestinians and they have the full right to return to their home.
If you are such a supporter of a homeland for Zionists why dont you give them England I am sure that the rest of our Anglo Saxon brethren in America, Australia, South Africa etc will be happy to take us.
Clearly you disagree with this and in that case you are a hypocrite.

Anne you stated that the Palestinians left their land, their lives, their wealth and centuries of lineage to become refugees so that the Arab armies could wipe out the Israelis. Anyone with even a bit of common sense will laugh at such a theory.
The truth is that they ran for their lives, and it was perhaps a wise move on their part because no matter how bad their situation might be the situation is much worse for those that chose to stay in the presence of Israel.
And Palestinians are being made refugees to this day , albeit in a much more subtle manner.

Si, N

Moderator (P. Hoskins?) - still no sign of my post from yesterday - I've tried to repost it but still no show. If there is a problem with the content of the post I would appreciate some indication.

Si, N

One amongst you on a recent thread made a timely interjection about body bags and context – worth bearing in mind is that.

Btw, it’s bound and blindfolded Palestinian detainees who you’re supposed to shoot in the foot – not yourselves.

So, what is this PLO?

(Heaven knows why I’m amazed you have the gall to raise that hellish episode; Black September? The darkest days of this, PLO.)

P.L.O.?

‘PALESTINIAN LIBERATION ORGANISATION’!

Do you get that? There’s a big clue in that name.

‘Arab terrorists? PLO anybody?’

‘No thanks. We like to import our terrorists from Europe and give them names like Irgun or Stern Gang or Hagana or IDF – hands off the terrorism; it’s ours. And with it we will wrest the land from the “Arab caveman”’.

Si, N

Hoskins! thou should'st be moderating this hour:
Speccy hath need of thee: she is a fen
Of stagnant waters: altar, sword and pen,

Si, N

Some Ethnic Cleansings:

15 February 1948, Qisarya,1500 people ‘IN A FEW HOURS’, cleansed; Barrat Qisarya, 1000 people cleansed; Khirbat al-Burj, cleansed; Atlit, 1000 people cleansed.

‘A fine nights’ work’. ‘After that, did you rest’? ‘No we proceeded to cleanse Sa’sa – ‘the sky prised open…we left behind 35 demolished houses and 60-80 dead bodies’. Moshe Kalman

‘After that, did you rest’? ‘No we went on to cleanse Qamun, Qira, Arab al-Ghawarina, Qumya, Mansurat al-Khayt, Husayniyya, Ulmaniyya, Kirad al-Ghannama, and Ubaydiyya.

Deir Yassin, 9 April 1948, 93 people massacred.

‘They took us out one after the other; shot an old man and when one of his daughters cried, she as shot too. Then they called my brother Muhammad, and shot him in front of us, and when my mother yelled, bending over him – carrying my little sister Hudra in her hands, still breastfeeding her – they shot her too’. Fahim Zaydan

‘After that did you rest’? ‘No we went on to cleanse Qalunya, Saris, Beit Surik, and Biddu – we will never rest, only wrest’.

Weapon of choice? Guns, knives, explosives, rape, multilation.

Adam B.

A Human,

Firstly, why be insulting? "..what a lovely couple you make…" This simply adds animosity and rudeness, and nothing of any substance to the merits of the discussion.

Secondly, you state that Arabs are “very diverse”. On what do you base this assertion? Certainly not on the demographics of Jordan, whose population consists mostly of Palestinians. Jordan itself was (the larger) constituent part of Palestine until 1922, when the British created the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan, with a Royal Family brought in from what is now Saudi Arabia. Why could the Arab Palestinians not have been absorbed into Jordan? The Syrians often refer to the area as “Southern Syria” and consequently regard the Arab population as Syrians. Perhaps you could elucidate on what makes someone uniquely “Palestinian” as opposed to, say, Jordanian or Syrian?

Are you also aware that the UN defines a Palestinian refugee as an Arab who lived in what is now Israel for only two years? In light of the fact of large scale Arab immigration in step with Jewish immigration in the years before Israel was reborn, your contention that the Arab refugees had all lived in Palestine for centuries in flawed. Of course many of them did live there for centuries, as had Jewish refugees from Arab nations lived in Arab countries. I notice you refuse to address the Jewish refugees from these countries, and your willingness only to look at Arab refugees demonstrates your bias in this discussion. I believe in a homeland for the Jews, not “the Zionists” as you tellingly put it (you mean Jews, right?) And if the Arabs are still being made refugees (please explain!) it’s amazing that the Arab population inside Israel, and in Judea and Samaria, continue to grow.

The fact is that the Arab refugee problem was caused by the genocidal war launched by five Arab nations against Israel at its birth. It is a matter of record that these Arab governments (and the Palestinain leadership under the Nazi-sympathising Mufti) had extolled the Arabs to leave, so that they could throw the Jews into the sea unhindered. Sadly for you, the Arabs lost this war (to their surprise) which they initiated. I can think of no other instance where one side starts hostilities, loses, and then demands a return to the situation before the war started. If you feel so strongly about Palestinian Arab refugees, I take it you also demand the return of (a larger number of) Germans to their homes in what is now Poland. If not, why not? Please explain the difference.

"In demanding the return of the Palestinian refugees the Arabs mean their return as masters, not slaves, more clearly – the intention is the extermination of Israel.”
(Salah al-Din, Egyptian Foreign Minister
(Al-Misri, Egypt, October 11, 1949).

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Daniel, take a look at '[ZNN] Palestinians: Our way or the highway' by Ami Isseroff http://www.zionism-israel.com/log/archives/00000591.html and note now the following extract:

"It is interesting that this [the one state]solution is now the favourite of many "right thinking" liberals like Tony Klug. Klug also makes the interesting admission that the two state solution was never considered to be a final step in the resolution of the Arab-Israel conflict. This admission reinforces the assertion of those Zionist opponents of the peace process who insist that the entire peace process is a trick to destroy Israel according to a staged plan."

I'm with "those Zionist opponents" all the way ! I'm sure that Ann and Carol will concur.

Ann, continue to sock it to those woolly "do-gooders" so full of advice for Israel. Let them give the benefit of their advice to the "Palestinians" !

Pete Hoskin

Si, N: sorry about the delay in getting back to you - has been a busy, ol' day.

About that comment, two things: 1) it was longer than we could feasibly allow. There's technically no word limit on comments. But this comment was 1000s and 1000s of words, and would meant a lot of scrolling for people to get past, and 2) some of its content was a little too lurid.

Hope that clears things up!

Si, N

Pete, thanks for the clarification - I'll never be the soul of wit, but I will attempt brevity.

Ann

You can laugh all you like, 'A human', but that simply exposes your ignorance of the history of the region. I wonder which books you read, or which dodgy websites you frequent. One may also wonder at your inability to spell my name correctly. Rather significant, that inability.

Ann

I see that the usual myths about 'ethnic cleansing' by Jews against Arabs are being given yet another airing by yet more ignoramuses.

"If you are such a supporter of a homeland for Zionists why dont you give them England"

Because their homeland is Israel, not England. Read some basic history before spouting your nonsense.

Ann

I'll do my best, Ben-Tsiyon (why not spell it Ben-Zion, given your name's meaning?).

A Human

Adam B.
I was not trying to be rude when I reffered to you and ann as a couple I was hinting towards the obvious prepostions that you held in regards to the topic, however I am sorry that you find it offensive to be termed alongside ann.

However inregards to Arabs being taken in by Arabs I was reffering to your earlier statement
"The Palestinian Arabs could have been living as full citizens of a dozen Arab countries"

Its interesting to see that you have now only reffered to a couple of Arab Countries, where as earlier you reffered to a dozen.

you asked
"Perhaps you could elucidate on what makes someone uniquely “Palestinian” as opposed to, say, Jordanian or Syrian?"

well certainly after 1922 as you stated.which is long before
Israel. Then again what makes anyone anything besides the fact that they lived there. The term Palestinian is just a name, we are refering to a geographical location which belongs to them, you can call them what you want.
In regards to Israel soaking in Jewish refugees, this is not offering assylum this is population boosting. but then again the real Jewish refugees were the ones that were fleeing european mass genocides. I am not aware of any such genocides being commited by Arabs.
I reffered to them as Zionists because that is the correct term, Zionism is an ideology that is rejected by a significant number of jewish people, of course you might refer to them as self hating Jews, but it would still be innacurate to say Jewish.
Palestinians are being made refugees to this day, the bombing of homes, the gradual push of illegal housing projects, the ghetto wall dividing Palestinians from their land and Income and recently the unhumane blockade resulting in the area becoming an unhabitable place thus resulting in Palestinians having to flee to avoid the dire situation.
I will not comment on Arab armies fighting with the Israeli Army. That is a different situation where armies fought and the stronger side won, you wrongly assume that it was to my disdain that the Arabs lost.
What I am interested in is the injustice to the Palestinians and yes Arabs do use their suffering for their own reasons, just like the Israelis use the suffering of the Jews in the holocaust to pursue their own agendas.

you said "In demanding the return of the Palestinian refugees the Arabs mean their return as masters, not slaves"
I am shocked that you would want them to return as slaves, clearly any relationship must be built upon equality.

and ann (I hope I spelt it right).

Picking on my slight spelling mistake is just pathetic.

Could you also enlighten us on why the Arabs would want to displace the Palestinians, how would have their displacement helped, clearly a whole nation on the march would have significantly complicated things for the Arabs, the best place for them would have been at home and out of the way. This is just too much of a coincendence that as the Zionists needed land, by magic the land appeared.
And what do you mean that the region is their homeland, It has been 2000 years, do you know how many people in the world have been displaced since then, according to your logic all of these people would be justified in attacking murdering and displacing the natives due to their 2000 year old claim. Seriously, have some sense. Israelis are refusing to allow the return of people who were actualy born on the land, where as they themselves claim it on the basis that they were they 2000 years ago.

Adam B.

A Human, thank you for your reply. I’m sorry to say that you just don’t get it. Firstly, you have been unable to explain how Arabs are “diverse” as you previously stated. Indeed, I gave two examples with an historical background to explain to you how Palestinian Arabs could easily be Jordanian and Syrian citizens. I have not “whittled” the number down, ther are a dozen (in fact more) countries where the Palestinian Arans could have been absorbed and lived as full citizens for decades. Have you not asked yourself why they haven’t been absorbed? It is interesting to note your ignorance about Jewish refugees from Arab countries. You really should investigate this, as it puts the conflict into a wider context, and not just the narrative you have been fed. Jews fled Yemen, Morocco, Iraq, Iran, Egypt, Libya and Lebanon, where they had lived as dhimmis (look it up) a system of apartheid. Not only did they flee second class citizen status, they fled pogroms and violence. When anti-semitic violence erupted, Jews were hanged in public squares, Jewish pregnant women had their foetuses cut out, and so on – you get the picture. Please investigate.

Are you claiming that a Palestinian Arab identity was forged between 1922 and 1948? If so, can you provide a single instance of this identity appearing in a book, song, film or any other media that dates from those years? I don’t think you’ll find one – because such an identity didn’t exist – it was created in the 1960’s as a weapon against Israel. You write: “The term Palestinian is just a name, we are referring to a geographical location which belongs to them.” Do you know the Roman origin of the term, used to replace the Jewish term Judea after the Jewish revolt? “Palestine” has never been an independent Arab state, at any time, ever. And the term “Palestinian” equally meant Jew and Arab before 1948 (the birth of Israel), it never was an exclusively Arab term. You need to ask yourself these questions and investigate. There has been a continuous Jewish presence in the land of Israel for over 3000 years, they aren’t newcomers as you seem to absurdly suggest.
You say Zionism is rejected by “many” Jews. This is an attempt to distance Jews from Israel, and it flies in the face of reality. Jews overwhelmingly support the right of Israel to exist as the one single Jewish nation on earth (compared to 37 Muslim nations and 50 plus Christian ones). The fact that there are Jews who exist who aren’t Zionists always gets trotted out by Israel bashers as “proof” they aren’t anti-Semitic, just “anti-Zionist”. Here’s a fact for you - there were Jews who collaborated with the Nazis. Does this prove anything? Of course it doesn’t!
You then make a string of accusations, without any wider context or understanding, claiming this is creating “refugees.” If refugees are being created, where are they going? Please answer this point exactly. I think you will find that there are no new refugees (unless you mean Bethlehem being systematically emptied of its Christian population by Islamist pressure). And why does the Arab population continue to grow rapidly if they are being forced away? You mention “bombing of homes”? Which “homes”? Please explain.
Re; the security barrier, please understand it is NOT a wall, 97% of it is a fence. The “wall” section is in a locality where Palestinian snipers killed several Israeli civilians, thus the small concrete section saves lives. Israel suffered years of suicide bombings, which were deliberately targeted at innocent civilians, before erecting the barrier. If Israel was itching for a “land grab”, why did its government wait for so many years before building it? Since it has gone up, suicide bombings have decreased very sharply. When once there was a bombing a week, now it is (still sadly) a few a year (despite daily attempts by the Palestinian terror groups). No terrorism=no barrier. It isn’t rocket science. Yes it is sad that farmers have difficulty accessing their land, it is even sadder when innocents get deliberately targeted and blown up simply for being Israeli. It is somewhat ridiculous to ask the Israelis to take the barrier down and invite a renewed onslaught against its citizens, especially without a wider peace agreement.

joann smith

When are the Israelies going to retaliate and stop taking such constant abuse by Hamas???!!!

Ann

"after 1922 as you stated.which is long before Israel"

Not so much that he doesn't get it: he is deliberately posting historical untruths. Even the most ignorant of Jew-haters knows full well that Israel was the Jewish homeland a mere 3000 years before 1922.

Adam B.

Moderator, is "humour" mocking someone's ethnicity acceptable?

Pete Hoskin

Adam B: you're right. roGER's comment shouldn't have slipped through the net. Apologies. It's been taken down now.

Adam B.

Thanks Pete.

Ann

Adam, I would regard it as a badge of honour to have the vilest of insults hurled at me by that sad excuse.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Ann, 'Zion' is an anglicization of the Hebrew word. My spelling 'Tsiyon' is the nearest I can get to reproducing in English the Hebrew word and pronunciation. I prefer to use that spelling for my name, while using 'Zion' in my texts.

Si,N

How touching to see the ethnic sensitivities on display.

Funny though; when Ann hurls a 'vile insult like, 'genocidal Arab cavemen'(July 23rd, 2008 2:09pm), it's allowed stand??

I abhor all racism - surely slurring any ethnic group should be guarded against here.

Adam B.

Sin, as you object to all racism, you will doubtless object to this:

http://www.tomgrossmedia.com/ArabCartoons.htm

Si, N

Bizarre!

The foot-shooting continues – is it a sort of penance for you or something?

Adam B., I’ve emphatically voiced my disgust of all racism – again I say, point to one instance of my maligning ANY ethnic group in general – if you truly opposed racism you’d challenge your buddy Ann.

This Tom Gross character – terms himself an 'Analyst'?? What a joke. On the linked page his beef is with generalisations – yet he says things like:

‘Jordan is supposedly a moderate country at peace with Israel’.

Yeah right, like the country of Jordan sat down one afternoon and inked a cartoon.

‘Byond parody’.

However, since you ask - the cartoons; those that depict anonymous caricatured Jews are to be reviled – the rest I’d allow.

For instance, the cartoon with the caption:

‘This cartoon from the Internet site of Omayya Joha, portrays an Israeli soldier who, having chopped off the foot of a Palestinian man, holds up a bloody hand to the camera and orders “No photographs.”’

There’s no need to rehearse the whole ghastly business which saw Ashraf Abu Rahma being shot in the foot at point blank range by an IOF gunman – but ask yourself, is that incident really so removed from Joha’s cartoon?

“No Photographs”?

A few days after the abuse of Mr. Abu Rahma there was an incident involving the father of the girl who captured those images in Ni'lin – typically, it got scant attention:

‘On Wednesday, the girl's father Jamal Hussein Amirra was arrested.

The arrest occurred today near the Palestinian village of Ni'lin, north of Ramallah, where villagers were peacefully protesting the construction of the separation wall. Today's protest was a women's only event, and Amirra was watching away from the actual protest.

When the Israeli army attacked the unarmed women, Amirra went in to protect the demonstrators, while Victor MacDiarmid, a Canadian citizen, took photographs. The two men were arrested within minutes’.

RIP Fadel Shana’a.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Si,N says that he abhors all racism and "slurring any ethnic group should be guarded against..", so in his rants against Israel, the Jewish homeland, he copies the ruse employed by all the other Jew-haters who won't admit to their prejudice. To disguise his racism, he substitutes "Zionists" for "Jews" on the dodgy pretext that not all Jews support Israel. Neat, very neat !

The late Dr Martin Luther King once told an "anti-Zionist" acquaintance that he should make no mistake, when people speak against "the Zionists" they really mean "the Jews".

Si, N

Btw, the veracity of that King quote is questionable (point to an original source please). Still, even if it is accurate, King didn't live to see the atrocious 40 year and ongoing occupation of the West Bank and Gaza (blockaded) - if you think that he would have approved of that occupation/blockade you're truly off your trolley.

Si, N

Moderator - what's going on?

Half of the time my posts simply fail to show.

Adam B.

Sin, why are you so rude? When you're not calling me a "cowardly barbarian" you say things like "my buddy Ann." I suppose you say this because neither of us display the irrational Israel hatred you espouse.

Your point about Jordan - clearly Tom Gross is pointing out that, as a country which has a peace treaty with Israel and is frequently termed "moderate" in the Western media, there still exists a rabid anti-Semitism in its press (which is state censored - not free, as in Israel). Why is this so difficult to understand? Additionally, the cartoon with an Israeli soldier cutting someone's foot off is indeed far from the truth - in the example you cite, a man received a bruised toe. Is this equivalent in your mind to having a limb chopped off?! As for "No photographs", Israel is the only country in the region with a free press - try taking photos freely in Hamas controlled Gaza (which isn't blockaded by Israel, it has a border with Egypt in case you hadn't noticed - perhaps if Hamas stopped trying to kill Jews, Israel could open its border again). Indeed, try taking photos freely in Syria, Iran or areas controlled by Fatah.

As for the Martin Luther King quote, it is indeed true. This quote comes from a response to a student who attacked Zionism (Source: Seymour Martin Lipset, "The Socialism of Fools - the Left, the Jews, and Israel," Encounter, Dec 1969, p.41). This sentiment is further confirmed by Congressman John Lewis, one of King's key assistants, who recently recalled:
"...less than two weeks before his tragic death, he [King] spoke out with clarity and directness stating, "peace for Israel means security, and we must stand with all our might to protect its right to exist, its territorial integrity. I see Israel as one of the great outposts of democracy in the world, and a marvellous example of what can be done, how desert land can be transformed into an oasis of brotherhood and democracy. Peace for Israel means security and that security must be a reality." During the recent UN Conference on Racism held in Durban, South Africa, we were all shocked by the attacks on Jews, Israel and Zionism. The United States of America stood up against these vicious attacks. Once again, the words of King ran through my memory, "I solemnly pledge to do my utmost to uphold the fair name of the Jews - because bigotry in any form is an affront to us all." " (Source: San Francisco Chronicle, Jan 21, 2002).

How you can claim to know King's mind? This, along with your contention that anyone who disagrees with you is "off their trolley", is the height of arrogance.

Ann

Fair enough, Ben-Tsiyon. And I did have my tongue in my cheek ;-)

Ann

"point to one instance of my maligning ANY ethnic group in general"

Here is one: your ignorant attack on the Jews, especially when you ignorantly use the term 'Zionists' as an insult (you obviously have no clue what it means), for daring to want to have a free country in their own homeland, and the lies you spread about them not being indigenous to Israel.

Si,N

Screech!

Is the meaning of zionism supposed to be a secret or something? Do you image it so esoteric that no nonzionist can grasp the simple essence of it?

Anyway, I’ve already told you what Zionism is on another thread, thicky – I’m not about to repeat it here for the benefit of your tired pantomime. As for its meaning; it clearly has a significance to you that is lost on me and the rest of planet earth.

About ‘screeching’ – lovely onomatopoeia – thing is, you overuse the word and it heightens the impression you give of a demented parrot.

AdamB’s argumentum ad verecundiam mars King. He was magnificent. But there is debate about the breadth of his ME knowledge. Interested? If you can stomach it, try here:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article2356.shtml.

And do try to keep up – you ought to know the letter from which the quote is purported to have come is a hoax. Don’t believe me? Well look here:
http://www.camera.org/index.asp?x_context=8&x_nameinnews=127&x_article=369

Not that I cite such a shoddy outfit as a reliable source. Of course the remainder of the sloppy argument for King’s supposed approval of zionisn crumbles.

As for “moderate” and its meaning in the ‘west’– it's all about degrees of compliance with western hegemony isn’t it.

Btw, I find you rude too but you don’t see me whinging about wounded feelings. Shame, your sensitivity is so self-regarding. Associating you with Screech was never intended as a rude gesture anyway – I didn’t realise that to you too she is objectionable

Adam B.

Sin, the difference between you and me is that I attack your argument and the way you put it - you simply attack the person. School playground name calling is really pathetic – “thicky”, “cowardly barbarian”and suchlike. The heights of your arrogance know no bounds, now we learn that you speak for “planet earth” as well. As for overusing the word “screeching” I believe it was you who used to go on about “bleating” in every post. Please believe me, I have NO wounded feelings from anything you could say.

You are mistaken about King – you asked for evidence and I provided it. You have muddled an unsubstantiated letter, to which you refer, with the two separate instances I provided you with (neither come from the letter in question). You simply haven’t researched this. In addition, you have now backtracked – confronted with the evidence I put before you in my last post, now you say “well, he didn’t really know the Middle East.” A classic example of making evidence fit one’s own viewpoint.

Nothing to say about Gaza’s border with Egypt then? Or the lack of press freedom everywhere in the ME except Israel? Can’t you bring yourself to admit it has a free press? I’ve noticed on other threads that when faced with unpalatable truths, you simply ignore them. Hence you still haven’t commented on Jewish refugees from Arab lands, or the deliberate targeting and murder of innocents by Hamas, Fatah and Hizbollah. And Zionism isn’t a secret (something of the “Jewish conspiracy” here?) Look up the definition in a dictionary.

Si,N

I've responded to every single point you raise there in other threads. I will not repeat things for the benefit of your reductive cyclical smoke blowing. Though I will make the points I want to make ad infinitum. So,you don't like the way I express myself?? Tough luck.

Bleat on.

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Adam B., thanks for saving me the trouble of authenticating Dr Martin Luther King's statement on Zionism, which I was about to do.

Of course, the Bigot attempted to divert attention from the point Dr King made by presuming that if he had lived, he would have disapproved of Israel's actions over the past 40 years. We could equally presume that Dr King would have had quite a bit to say about Arab terrorism, sucide bombers, rocket attacks on civilians,the corrupt Yasir Arafat, Hamas, Fatah, Hizbollah etc. etc.

Notice how, with each succeeding posting, Si,N's rants become more and more rabid.

raymond joseph douglas

Ann is a woman of passion.i admire her.Her frustation regarding the essentialy dishonest coverage from the BBC echoes mine.Why are the jews hated?Because they are the covenant people of God who gave us the Bible and our saviour Jesus/Yeshua.i don't know if you are christian Ann,but you have my support at least!

Adam B.

Sin, I'm afraid that's simply not true. Perhaps you can refer me to the dates and times you answered those specific points?

Adam B.

Ben-Tsiyon, I think we touched a nerve! The Bigot doesn't discuss, he hurls accusations and insults. When cornered with evidence, he ignores it (see the King evidence, or Jewish refugees from Arab countries, or Hamas and Hizbollah targeting innocents, Fatah's awful human rights record, or a free press in Israel unlike her neighbours, all still unanswered)and finds a new accusation. In this way, he tries to control the discussion. I think if he becomes any more rabid, he'll start frothing at the mouth!

david

on a similar note

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121815474002722569.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

phil

Sorry for the repetition but i will ask you all again why do you bother to respond to SI,N -?he writes the tomes of the demented and and all you intelligent people fall for his nonsense -please ignore him nobody believes him as is apparent here .the space he takes up could be used for useful discussion .meanwhile we could await his book "SI,N in wonderland

Ahad Ha'Amoratzim

For those who point at Ni'ilin as some kind of proof that Israel commits terror, the Israeli Supreme Court has ordered an investigation into the incident and has demanded stronger charges against the soldier involved and his commanding officer. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1218710403257&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

I challenge anyone to show me a single instance of the Palestine Authority investigating and punishing an attack against Jews. Instead the PA prosecutes and executes anyone suspected of warning Jews about planned attempts of mass murder.

Nick

If you replace the word "arab" or "palestinian" with "Jew" then you would all rightly be condemmed as anti semites.
Racism works both ways

Adam B.

Nick, why not provide an example?

Ann

Interesting. So now I am not permitted to reply to Sin's mouth-foaming attack on me.

M Dunn

That is why I feel such contempt for the boating party. Hope it sinks on its way back to Egypt