Daniel Kawczynski MP apologises to Melanie Phillips

BJ

Who cares about this apology? But at least this MP has the good sense to refer to the Occupied Palestinian Territories correctly as the Occupied Territories.

Ann

Except they are not 'occupied', BJ.

What IS going on here, with the disappearing comments?????

jose garcia

to the moderator

i am tired and fed up with all my posts being censored.

i do want to know why my last post was censored when the BJ's post is allowed, or is the spectator so weak they can use muslim names anymore? perhaps i will have to find out from melanie when she comes back, because this blog is becoming a censors paradise, never mind china

jose garcia

you tell me ann

i cant seem to get anything posted here these days

Joe

BJ

"Occupied Territories" ? Surely you mean Administered Territories!

Jose, I didn't see your comment so I cannot respond, but Israel is not occupying "Palestinian" territories by virtue of the fact that Palestine has never actually existed as an independent sovereignty.

Although you might think that this is a contentious point, it is in fact a statement of fact. Israel's borders remain to be defined by a "Final" peace treaty with its belligerents. Israels boarders with Jordan and Egypt have thus been finalized, Syria and Lebanon remain to be defined as does the final status of the regions known as Judea, Sameria and Gaza.

These territories are (legally)administered by Israel as per UN SC resolution 245 which links territorial withdrawal to a final peace.

Although it is likely that a new state of Palestine will be carved out of the administered territories, it does not make them "occupied Palestinian territories" today.

Ann

Joe,
Israel is not occupying "Palestinian" territories by virtue of the fact that there is no such thing as "Palestinian".

Joe

Israel is not occupying "Palestinian" territories by virtue of the fact that there is no such thing as "Palestinian".

Well this is not true. Since the Oslo accords, the Palestinian people are self governed to a greater or lesser degree. Further, the Oslo accords do envision a future Palestinian sovereignty of some form.

The territories under Israeli Administrative control will largely form the future geographical entity to be known as Palestine. But in principle Palestine already exist, through the Palestinian Authority, without a clear demarcation of the ultimate limits of its sovereignty.

Israel does not occupy Palestine because it is the legal administrator pending finalizations of Israel's borders with it beligerants, and, crucial, an end of both hostilities and claims against it territories (i.e. secure and recognized borders).

Joe

Further Ann,

Palestine does exist by virtue of the fact that there are people living within the areas administered by Israel who are not Israeli. Since these people almost exclusively live outside Israels 1948 armistice lines, and are almost ethnically homogenous (i.e. Arabic speaking, not jewish) and distinct from Israelies (hebrew Speaking, jewish) it is not unreasonable for them to demand self determination. Unlike minority groups in other countries, neither groups wants to integrate the Palestinians into Israeli society and to extend full Israeli citizenship. The Future Palestine is inevitable because the occupants of the Israeli Administered territories will never be Israelies.

Hence Palestine exist because Palestinians exist.

phil

Ann-"Israel is not occupying "Palestinian" territories by virtue of the fact that there is no such thing as "Palestinian".

we all saw a Palestinian team march into the Olympics.the world accepts there is such a thing as Palestinians and denying that fact will get this situation nowhere -if peace and resolution is to be made it is time to stop burying heads and and time to get on with the future, bearing in mind what is de facto.,and regardless of what we think are their politics.

Ann

Joe and Phil, you can spout Realpolitik at me till the cows come home, and of course the world is ruled by bullies with big guns and economic power. So sure, the world can coerce Israel to agree to such a monstrosity as 'Palestine'. And purely for the sake of argument, this MAY (!) even be a good thing for Israel, although I seriously doubt it. But this still doesn't change the fact that there is no such thing as a 'Palestinian'. This people speak Arabic, have an Arab culture and history, are ethnically Arabs, and there has never been a separate language, religion, race, history, culture, polity or anything else that is 'Palestinian'. Ever. These people are Arabs, as they themselves insisted (!) throughout history until a few decades ago, when they themselves declared openly that they are not 'Palestinian' and this is purely a ruse to destroy Israel.

phil

Ann its the world as it is not always the one we want ,and we have to learn how to deal with it -burying our heads will do nothing to help the future which is for the children .we have had our chance and resolved nothing by conflict and obstinance .The people who live in Gaza and the West bank call themselves Palestinians ,so whatever you want to refer to them as will make no difference .it is them that peace will have to ,be made with .

Ann

Phil, do try to read what I said with some attempt at concentration. Look up 'Realpolitik' if the term causes you difficulty. And I did quite explicitly say that the world is as it is, so you are not saying anything I didn't.

What I was talking about is the ignorant antisemites who set up the following spurious argument:

1. These people are Palestinians.

2. Therefore, the country they live in is Palestine.

3. Therefore, it is not the country of the Jews.

4. Therefore, the Jews are foreign invaders, European colonisers, who are subjugating the indigenous population; they arrived from a foreign country in 1948 (or at best, 1897) and have no business being there.

5. Therefore, the Palestinians are fighting a war of liberation against foreign imperialists.

6. Therefore, the Palestinians are justified in murdering the Jews and doing everything they can to throw them out.

My argument was aimed at showing that 1, 2 and 3 are false, therefore the entire syllogism (which is relied upon by the antisemites here and elsewhere to justify their antisemitism) is a fallacy.

I hope you were able to follow this.

phil

Ann You missed out number 7-and pigs can fly-I don't mind your childish rudeness .its amusing sometimes but your incessant lack of comprehension is tedious .This thread was about an apology and as usual you have turned it into a bun fight -I don't wish to engage in an exchange of opinions with you ,I have a more pressing task -like peeling potatoes- I will leave the realpolitic to you -goodbye

Ann

The usual childish rant from Phil, who can't understand a simple syllogism so accuses others of 'lack of comprehension' - LOL!

You forgot to throw your toys out of your pram as part of your tantrum, little boy.

phil

Ann I think this may amuse you-its the definition of a rant

"A criticism done by ranting; A wild, incoherent, emotional articulation; An exposition written, or more often oral, where emotionality supersedes rationality. Its purpose is a call to action, often identifying a target for ire and a path to resolution. ...
en.wiktionary.org/wiki/rantnn "

incredibly its exactly what you do ;););) so do not worry I will throw the toys later when I can catch my breath -I,M still laughing -sorry cant help it -oh dear

Ann

What a sad little ignoramus you are, Phil. You can't follow a simple logical argument, so you rave and rant. I can see your foam-flecked mouth even from here.

phil

still laughing ann sorry cant help it you are really funny -missed your vocation

Robbit

Ann - bully for you for trying to reason with the infantile Phil. But really if Phil thinks that the IOC should be the final arbiter of what legitimate nation states exist then there is bareley any point at all discussing with him. He actually has the gall to call your reasoned explanations a rant and think that his ignorant drivel is an argument! He is a joke, but utterly typical of all his ilk, including Joe who also seems to think that something as contrived as the Oslo Accord can bring a nation state into existence. The palestinian "state" and "homeland" that is allegedly "occupied" is a fiction, a phoney contrivance funded by the EU and the UN at western taxpayers expense, just a front for anti-semitic Jihad.

Ronnie

I would like to thank Ann (the sociopath) and Robbit for clearing everything up, notwithstanding their brainless insults.

There are no Palestinian Arabs or indeed Arabs who have ever lived in a space known by some as Palestine (are there actually Arabs?)

Therefore there can be no Palestinian state and therefore there can be no such thing as the two-state solution to the crisis that world leaders have been banging on about for the past 20 years. Indeed there is no crisis that needs a solution...

Furthermore, anyone who disagrees with this analysis is a racist because... that's the nastiest thing you can say about anyone and Ann (the sociopath) loves to be nasty to people as it proves the superiority of her intellect.

So, not only are we able to dehumanise the non-Jewish and non-Christian people who occupy part of the space that some call the larger State of Israel, we can actually pretend that they don't exist. And then perhaps one day they won't.

Now, where have we heard that line of thinking before?

james

Dehumanise them, Ronnie?

They don't need a hand. Did you miss the footage of the Fatah-supporting Palestinians fleeing for their lives from Hamas into Israel?

If Israel was dehumanising them, why did it offer sanctuary and medical assistance? And why are the 'dehumanised' Palestinians never short of cash for guns and people to shoot them?

phil

robbit ,rabbit or hobbit whatever you are did you see the humans walking into the stadium .what did you think they were ?animals ? ,birds?inanimate objects?-I think I saw people and those are the people with whom peace has to be made so that they and my family can live a decent life with a hope for the future of their children -

your childish insults and the raving nonsense that our female friend continues to write despite the damage that it does to the cause of Jewish people is water off a ducks back -I care about the future of all the people of that unfortunate area -what is your excuse?-

Perhaps you can persuade your friend to battle on behalf of the atheists (they probably don't want her support either) of which she says she is one and leave the Jewish people to put their own cause ,she certainly has never made one friend for us with her incessant gratuitous insults-Anyone who has been around here long enough knows my support is for the state of Israel ,but that does not make me blinkered to what is happening around me ,nor careless of the lives of others with whom I do not agree.The children of both sides are born innocent and we do not need to condemn them to a life of misery -think again robbit ,your moment in the limelight came cheaply .your solutions would prove very expensive .

Alexandrovich

Robbit: game's up. You are really Ann, are you not? No two people can be so single mindedly arrogant, sneering and indifferent to suffering.

Let's see if your riposte is "... and we all know what you are."

That'll confirm it.

Ronnie

No James, I didn't miss that footage. Nor did I miss the footage of Lebanese civilians running for their lives when their homes were being bombed, nor the more recent footage of Georgian civilians running for their lives as their homes were being bombed. Nor all the other footage I've seen over time showing people running for their lives from one group of nutters or another, knowing that if those fleeing had more or bigger guns they would be chasing the nutters. So what's your point?

Incidentally, I read that Israel gave them sanctuary and medical assistance on condition that they worked for Israeli Intelligence. You'll deny that no doubt but this is, after all, war. Even though Ann (the sociopath) has denied the existence of an enemy.

As for cash and motivation, when both sides perpetuate death and destruction because they can't be bothered working on a different plan, there will be no shortage of cash for guns and bitter people willing to use them.

Are there so many people who refuse to share Phil's fear for the future because they'd rather be 'right' now. I don't count Ann (the sociopath) and her friend the Hobbit, they don't think there is a problem and are therefore not interested in a solution.

James

My point, Ronnie, is that you’ve written a load of tripe about the Palestinians being “dehumanised”.

If they’re so “dehumanised” where do they get the time, energy and guns to start attacking their own people when they apparently aren’t extreme enough?

I find it very odd indeed that you think the Palestinians are so “dehumanised” that they’re on the verge of not existing at all, when in actual fact it’s Hamas that wants the extinction of Israel. It’s part of the Hamas charter. Indeed, they seem to be so confident that it’s all going so swimmingly that Hamas MP Yunis al-Astal has been celebrating the idea of going well beyond Israel and making Europe and the rest off the world grovel at the feet of a Caliphate:

“[Rome would become] an advanced post for the Islamic conquests which will spread through Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, and even Eastern Europe…Allah has chosen you for himself and for his religion, so that you will serve as the engine pulling this nation to the phase of succession, security, and consolidation of power, and even to conquests through da'wa [preaching] and military conquests of the capitals of the entire world”

(as not broadcast by Channel 4 News)
http://www.memritv.org/clip/en/1739.htm

So the political party elected by the Palestinians isn’t just confident it can make Israel an Islamic state but will soon to get to the rest of us as well, and I’m supposed to believe your tripe about dehumanisation?

LePie

Possibly the most amusing - if not slightly derranged - half an hour I've spent reading comments on a blog. Keep it up guys - are you sure that the Speccie isn't paying you for this???

paul hill

Phil-keep plugging away;you're a little beacon of sanity in the realm of bonkers Mel and her brain dead acolytes

Stanislav Koblinski

Ronnie:

Incidentally, I read that Israel gave them (Fatah-supporting Palestinians fleeing for their lives from Hamas into Israel) sanctuary and medical assistance on condition that they worked for Israeli Intelligence.

Where did you read that?

Can you provide a link?

What is the source?

Perhaps you're thinking of the false accusations that Shin Bet only allowed sick Palestinians to enter Israel for treatment on condition they became informers?

Those accusations were made by a notorious anti-Israeli group that poses as an NGO and have been well and truly discredited.

Stanislav Koblinski

Possibly the most amusing - if not slightly derranged (sic) - half an hour I've spent reading comments on a blog.

You must be an awfully slow reader. It shouldn't take you more than ten minutes, at the most.

Ronnie

No, Stanislav Koblinski (didn't you direct 'Pirates of the Caribbean'?), I can't. I'm busy.

There seem to be lots of notorious anti-Israeli groups poising as one thing or another. In fact, it seems that you may not question some of the actions of the state of Israel without becoming notorious, indeed a 'notorious anti-semite'.

Incidentally, I quite believe that Paul Hill took half an hour to work his way through this forum. You have to read some of this crap more than once to come to terms with the fact that people can write such drivel.

Ronnie

Apologies. I meant LePie, not Paul Hill.

Stanislav Koblinski

No, Stanislav Koblinski (didn't you direct 'Pirates of the Caribbean'?), I can't. I'm busy.

Not to busy to repsond though eh?

Gore Verbinski directed 'Pirates of the Caribbean', but then all those names ending in "inski" sound the same to the likes of you.

Are you this Ronnie?

Regarding the BGOs you trust:

A disturbing diagnosis

Also: Physicians for Human Rights – Israel (PHR-I) representative questioned by General Security Services for "hostile activities"
July 01, 2008

The General Security Service (GSS) questioned Salah Haj Yihyeh, director of mobile clinics for PHR-I, for alleged "hostile activities" related to his membership in the Al Aqsa Foundation and other alleged non-humanitarian aspects of his trips to Gaza on behalf of PHR-I.

Physicians for Human Rights (Israel)
* Website: www.phr.org.il/phr
* Founded 1988, based in Israel (PHR-I is not part of the US-based Physicians for Human Rights).
* According to its mission statement, PHR-I is "an Alliance of Science and Conscience" and "a ...non-partisan, nonprofit organization, dedicated to promoting and protecting the medical human rights of all resident of Israel and the Occupied Territories.
* In practice, PHR-I's primary objective is strongly political, despite claims that it opposes "the subjugation of medical care to political considerations of any kind..."
* As a result of PHR-I's radical political agenda, the Israel Physician's Union halted cooperative activities.
* Funders include the EU, Finnish Embassy, church organizations, private donations.

PHR-I Articles of Interest: "Double Standard": Exceprts from Richard Hortonīs 2007 Visit to Gaza and Israel: A Foolīs Journey

NGOs in the News: 'Dead Gazan' alive and kicking - Rights group got it wrong: Gaza cancer patient who 'died while waiting for permit' still alive

NGO Monitor Updates: PHR-I admits research mistake

NGO Monitor Reports: Physicians for Human Rights Color Pamphlet Contradicts its Own Mission Statement

Do please provide us with a link to the source of your accusations.

"I'm busy" simply isn't acceptable.

I'm busy too, but if I make a claim I'm prepared to take the time and trouble to back it up.

phil

Alexandrovich our two friends must have gone off to sociopathagos for a little moussaka -cant think what other reason for not replying ,especially as you asked them :)

Ronnie

I'm so proud of you Stanislav, you put us all to shame.

I didn't make the claim, I read it somewhere without dilgently taking notes.

Not acceptable? Tough. Loosen your Ys.

James

Ronnie, mate, you're the one that needs to loosen your Ys. You think your allegation is so valid you screamed about it, but then asked to substantiate it and you've got what? Jack squit.

BTW to all readers, the broken European economy is just about to fund... the Palestinians.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/daniel_hannan/blog/2008/08/22/eu_aid_to_palestine_is_funding_the_conflict

Alexandrovich

Stanislav/James. Everybody hates us, right? Since biblical times. Through every century. By every country. By every organisation. Unremitting persecution, right? Nobody has fed us, sheltered us or given us comfort, right?

Why's this?

Stanislav Koblinski

I didn't make the claim, I read it somewhere without dilgently taking notes.

You claim to have read something but refuse to back up your claim.

Putting people like you to shame is easy - you have no shame to start with.

(PS: I wear boxer shorts - another of your baseless assumptions out of the window.)

jose garcia

ronnie said

"There seem to be lots of notorious anti-Israeli groups poising as one thing or another. In fact, it seems that you may not question some of the actions of the state of Israel without becoming notorious, indeed a 'notorious anti-semite'"

i would say the oposite is what is actually happening, i cant remember the last time i saw or read a media critiscim of the palestinians, the billions of aid siphoned to bank accounts or in arms, the endless rockets launched at israel and designed to kill ONLY civilians, the bus bombings, the fatah/hamas infight, the HAMAS charter (where have you seen its islamo fascist insides critisiced).

the only thing i hear is critism of israel and lets talk to those opressed terrorists, no matter how many priests, civilians or rockets are disposed of in the process.

all of this for how much? a 0.06% of the middle east?, and you call this a territorial conflict?.

this is about finishing what the nazis started and the arabs have tried since 1948 to do.
jewish genocide,

they hate jews , since the moment they are borne to the moment they watch the first palestinian tv cartoon, all you see is mindless hate and indoctrination, or havent you watched the mickey mouse programs where a little girl and a mickey mouse on palestinian tv extort CHILDREN to be suicide bombers.

who wants peace or negotiation, why i cant see this ever critisided in the normal media?
would you imagine if there were israel cartoons promoting the killing of palestinians?

i am sorry but the double standards are just too much,

and i find the whole argument of critisicing israel a joke when you look at palestinian standards of behaviour

Ronnie

Dear Joel

I agree with you 50% but are you saying that some of the actions of the state of Israel should not or cannot be criticised? Is it prohibited in some way?

In large part, the criticism stems from the feeling that, as Israel is a 'western liberal democracy' we expect more from it. We criticise its descent into what may be described as 'terrorist norms of behaviour' because we hope that it may stand above the atrocities committed by its enemies, however difficult that may be.

The great danger of terrorism is not that it kills innocent people (although that is bad enough) but that it makes free societies disgard their values and become what the terrorists claimed they were in their propaganda. In our case we have ill-prepared and frightened Home Secretaries and Prime Ministers tearing up the fundamental legal rights of our citizens. That is nothing but a victory for terrorists.

In Israel's case, some will say that the state is now governed by the army, or that the army is the most influential institution within it. That may be understandable but it is not desireable in the development of a democracy and it is a victory for terrorism. Israel has been prevented from being what was visualised by men such as Ben Gurion not just by the terrorists but by some of the choices made by Israeli statesmen.

We criticise actions that we think can only perpetuate the killing because we hope that, as a state, Israel will take the lead in finding a solution to the crisis and take positive steps towards ending the various threats to its own existence. Steps that do not include more killing in a region where revenge seems to be the only motivating force.

We criticise the state of Israel because we think it has taken a wrong turning and 'can't see the wood for the trees'. Peace deals have been signed with Jordan and Egypt and one day the issue of the Golan will be resolved and there will be formal peace with Syria. Why? Because it makes sense and is in the overwhelming best interests of the countries concerned. Being continually on a war footing exhausts a nation and prevents it developing as it should.

One day there will also be a resolution of the questions surrounding the status of the Arabs living in what they call Palestine. Why not sooner than later? Or does everyone really think that things can go on as they are... for ever.

On a personal level, and I may be completely wrong, there was far less global criticism of Israel in the days of Golda Meir and Moshe Dyan because people could see that Israel was moving bravely forward in spite of the huge odds stacked against her. People don't see that now and Israel's leaders/global representatives such as Sharon and Netanyahu are difficult to like or agree with, for reasons that I won't go into here.

Many of the people who criticise the State of Israel do so for positive reasons. We do not for one minute question Israel's existance, quite the opposite. Some of us want Israel to live up to our unfair expectations.

As for criticising the Arabs in 'Palestine'? Sure, every day but who in particular? They are so divided, have so many leaders and are poorly led, are used by so many Arab countries when required and then dropped when the wind changes... My wish for them is that one day soon their families can live in peace and have normal education and health systems and economic security and prosperity. I wish the same for the people of Israel in their homeland, it has taken long enough.

I don't think that making criticisms of actions which I believe take us further away from a peaceful solution is anti-semitic. I do believe that only those who have an interest in keeping the war endless would say so. I don't care if people are Jewish, Arab, Muslim, Catholic or Protestant. These are mostly accidents of birth and can be clung to if people feel it necessary. The designation I prefer is 'people'.

We criticise those who would prefer to pick the wings from flys in arguing about who started the conflict. There is a terrible past that both sides must live with but will it always prevent them having a future?

Ann

"In large part, the criticism stems from the feeling that, as Israel is a 'western liberal democracy' we expect more from it."

No, what you are saying is that you require the Jews to be better than everybody else before you'll leave them alone. Making more stringent demands on them is an antisemitic position.

Ann

"You are really Ann, are you not? No two people can be so single mindedly arrogant, sneering and indifferent to suffering"

One of the most ignorant statements I have read for a long time.

Ronnie

Ann (the sociopath), one day we will meet in a remake of 'You've Got Mail' made necessary by the first movie's failure to capture the magic of 'The Little Shop on the Corner'. I will play the part immortalised by James Stewart and you can be Ena Sharples.

Are you utterly incapable of reasoned discourse? Are you a genuine moron or do you actually have a treatable condition, a form of Turette's perhaps?

YoYo

The danger of terrorism, Ronnie, is that it works. The aim of Islamic jihad isn’t just to kill, it’s to have us all worshipping Allah. To use that word you so love to misuse, to dehumanise and demonise non-Muslims until we grovel at the feet of the Caliphate and Islam reigns supreme, its religious edicts enforced through Shariah law and Shariah finance and so on.

Only you can’t handle that. So when it’s pointed out to you that Palestinian politicians are salivating at the destruction of the West, you go all three wise monkeys on us.

Israel isn’t on a “war footing” at all. It’s on a defence footing. Where are the Jewish MPs in Israel making speeches like Yunis al-Astal’s, planning to make Rome and the West grovel before Judaism?

It’s got nothing to do with picking wings from the ointment and everything to do with Hamas dropping its requirement that Israel has no right to exist (something else you’re three wise monkeys on) and those Muslims who want the world grovelling before a Caliphate understanding that not all of us want to be Muslims or to have our lives governed by Islamic precepts .

When the Islamic holy war agenda – they even have a name for it, it’s called jihad – is dropped then you’ll get your peace – but don’t bother blaming Israel or anyone else for defending themselves from it. Israelis are prepared to die to defend their freedoms and so am I.

Ronnie

Oh God! Its like 'Lord of the Rings'.

Palestine - Mordor, Palestinian Politicians - Nazgul, Israel - the Riders of Rohan... Collapse of the West - Elven ships gliding into the sunset, the return of the Caliphate brought to us by hordes of Orcs.

When will the King return? Where is Enya?

Yo Yo, the fact is that the vast majority of people, no matter where they come from, want to make a secure and comfortable living for themselves and their families. They want to succeed in whatever it is they choose to do, assuming they have any choice at all. Its that simple I'm afraid.

It takes only a few people to make a lot of noise, only a few drops of paint on a bus shelter to give the impression of imminent catastrophe.

Get back from the edge...

phil

Ronnie no need to insult the memory of Ena Sharples -I remember her well a sharp witted northern lady who knew the truth when she saw it !! :)

YoYo

That’s it Ronnie, when you can’t handle the truth, bury your head in fairytales - that's about your reading level.

Maybe you’ll tell the relatives of the 9/11 dead, 7/7, Madrid that their grief is fictional. The blood’s fake and the tears not real.

Yunis al-Astal isn’t some fringe figure, he was voted into power by a Palestinian majority because his party was the most extreme option on offer.

“They want to succeed in whatever it is they choose to do” yes, and what too many of them choose to do is join in directly or support jihad. Which is why they put people such as al-Astal into power. If a non-Muslim Western politician isn’t allowed to speak like this, then why should a Muslim one be allowed to?

Ronnie

Sorry Phil, you are probably right. I was very young at the time and she scared me rigid. 'Just you sup your stout, Minnie Caldwell.' So very menacing...

Yo Yo, does it never, ever enter your head to try to work out why they voted for the most extreme option available? Is that too difficult for you, are you too lazy to look at the situation in more than two dimensions? Maybe its not in your manual, 'The black and White of Middle Eastern Politics'. They just did it because they are bad, right?

London Calling

This post started well, a platform in which to speak and a mature apology from MrKawczynski although in retrospect I think Melanie’s does have a tendency to steam in on issues somewhat blinded by her own feverish journalistic passion at times without consideration to detail and consequence, of which I noted with regards to the recent Barak Obama post in which Melanie claimed that Barak had become a Christian to further his political career, which was untrue and was later omitted, unfortunately the damage was already sewn into the minds of its readers and no apology necessary.

Ronnie is correct, we all have a democratic right to criticise without fear of being accused to silence, therefore no democratic country or person should be immune from scrutiny, if it is fact and truth that supports such criticism.

Sorry is a big word in a small world :)

well done the Spectator and Mr Kawczynski...

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

This whole "Palestinian" thing is the biggets fraud of the 20th/21st centuries. On their own admission, the Arabs have engineered it solely for the purpose of opposing the rebirth of the Jewish nation-state in its ancient homeland, and, of course, all those others in the world infected with that incurable disease (which they try to disguise)have eagerly and tenderly embraced and cling to the fiction. Dissenters (like Ann, myself and others) may not be able to actively prevent the rest of the world from foisting this fraudulent injustice upon the Jewish people, but that does not mean that we have to bow to it and not protest.

Ronnie

Wow! Phew! Gosh!

Ann

London Calling thinks that he should be immune from criticism, and yet waffles about 'free speech'.
Beyond parody.

Ronnie

Look Ben, I'm really sorry you believe that. Its a very destructive mental place to be. But I think that you are fundamentally wrong about how the world feels, for two reasons.

The first is that the world has so many other problems to think about and deal with now that Israel's survival or otherwise just isn't top of the list, I'm sorry.

The second reason is this. I don't know if you were around at the time of the Munich Olympics or the Entebbe hostage crisis but the global support for Israel and the way it handled these two crises was unbelievable. There was pride, dignity, honour and swift and effective action, particularly in the raid that freed the hostages in Uganda.

It was a different era, of course, and things have changed dramatically since then. But maybe things would not seem so hopeless now if you could remember how Israel was then and what it was that most people admired so much.

Ann

The Munich Olympics ... yes ... they carried on regardless. Never mind a dozen murdered Israeli athletes, the show must go on - so said the despicable IOC. Totally devoid of dignity, morality and humanity.

YoYo

Ronnie, did it ever enter your head that they voted for the most extreme option because they are the party that wishes to fulfil - to the letter - Koranic verses such as “Make war on the unbelievers and the hypocrites and deal rigorously with them. Hell shall be their home: an evil fate.”

That this will help to create a two-tier society the globe over in which Muslims are privileged over non-Muslims who, if they’re lucky enough to be allowed live, will get to live like dhimmis? That, sad to say, this brand of religious fundamentalism does appeal to huge numbers of them, which is why they demonise and physically attack their own moderates?

Ronnie

'...the world is grown so bad
That wrens make prey where eagles dare not perch.
Since every Jack became a gentleman
There's many a gentle person made a Jack.' Richard III

phil

Ronnie -I do well remember when Israel was so admired and I pray that it will be again and unless I cannot read between . your lines properly I think you do too.You seem to have got into a war of words with some that do not wish to face reality and some who enjoy sending hate messages . You will waste your time trying to reason with your lady friend ,but thankfully she does not represent the way of thinking of most of us and it is impossible to stop her as she has said many times -there are others who feel passionately that they are being victimised and sometimes it is true ,but many of us still believe that there can be a way forward ,and that can only be through dialogue with the willing ,together with facing pragmatic and possibly painful choices -hate will gain nothing but more misery for all of us -I am not giving up hope .,and I see you are not losing your sense of humour.

Ronnie

Hi Phil. I think if we loose our sense of humour (including biting sarcasm) then we loose our humanity and, at the end of the day, that's what this is all about.

As for my 'lady friend' and her friends, I've been arguing with them for a very long time and I don't think its a waste. If their minds can be opened to the realities of the wider world, even just a little, then there is hope. I deeply respect their sincerity and ernestness and I really can see where they are coming from. What I can't see is where they are going with all their angst, hatred, fear and bitterness. They exhibit a disturbing collective psychosis and I wonder if they will see themselves as victims for their entire lives or can they break out of despair and take themselves and their cause forward?

Of course, that goes for Israel itself. Sullen, inward-looking, self-obsessed, unable and apparently unwilling to play a full part in world events other than as a covert partner to the US in some of its stanger adventures. Israel at the moment seems to project only a paranoid, victimised and defensive face to the world - a negative, needy posture. Talking of which, is Netanyahu still leading in the polls?

If Israel wants support from the world community then it has to learn how to build deeper and mutually advantageous relationships with other nations. It's not rocket science.

Similarly, if my 'lady friend' and her pals want to be understood and taken seriously, then they have to do the same. Its up to them but they could start by not believing everything that Melanie writes and also by having a good laugh at some of the silly nonsense that their enemies spout.

Every action has a reaction, fear and hatred only breed more fear and hatred. In the meantime so many people die. As Colonel Killgore famously said, 'One day this war's gonna end...'

Ellen

“Sending hate messages”? I can see plenty of hate on here, but its not from any supporters of the free world and Israel. Looks more like a case of Tweedle Phil and Tweedle Ron shooting the messenger when a few home truths are delivered.

Ronnie

Oh-My-God! 'She' has a sister.

TM

So Shakespeare supports the jihad, Ronnie? Why didn’t Hamlet have a suicide bomb, then? What gibberish.

Don’t worry about the rest of us having a laugh, Phil. It’s just that we’re laughing at you and Ronnie, not with you.

As for the jihadists, they must be wetting themselves at the way you two lap up their propagandist taqiyya. No wonder they think of people like you as 'useful idiots'.

I’m surprised Al Jazeera haven’t signed you two up for a sitcom.

“This week, our two blathering buffoons have been sold a pup one more. Yes, sit back and laugh at the antics of our two pals falling for a yet another taqiyya scam in the latest episode of Only Fools and Dhimmis.”

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

If, as Ronnie claims, Israel was so much admired a few decades ago, then on reviewing Jewish history over the last 19 / 20 centuries, I think it would be pretty safe to say that it was a very temporary aberration, and things are now back to normal, only more so !

It's really not important if Israel's "survival or otherwise just isn't top of the list" of the world's problems. What is very important, and must be resisted at all costs, is the ever growing campaign of vilification, demonization and delegitimization of Israel and, by implication, the whole Jewish nation ! I'd say that the minds of his "'lady friend' and her friends" are very much open "to the realities of the wider world".

So, Phil is back with his talk of "there can be a way forward, and that can only be through dialogue with the willing". Tell me where are the willing on the Arab side ! Forget about Hamas. Yes, there are people like Mahmoud Abbas who will say one thing for western ears, but another that is completely contrary for Arab / Muslim consumption. As some native Americans are supposed to have said of the white man, such people "speak with forked tongue".

What pomposity is Ronnie's ! Who is he to lecture Israel and, by implication, the Jewish people, on what it must do to obtain support from the world community ! I can tell him what most of the world community want of Israel - to quietly commit suicide. As for "not believing everything that Melanie writes", I can assure him that, in my case, her writings simply confirm my own pre-existing views on the same subject matter, and the "nonsense that [our] enemies spout" may be "silly", but it is also dangerous nonsense.

Ronnie

I rest my case.

YoYo

What case?

phil

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon) I have no idea who the willing will be ,but I cannot give up on the hope that they will someday arrive ,from previous correspondence I know you are aware of where my loyalties lie ,as I do yours ,we obviously differ in how we hope to achieve our aims ,nevertheless I have the utmost respect for your opinions .

-I cannot say the same for those of the foolish people whose only pleasure seems to be to offer gratuitous and childish criticism and pop up like jack in the boxes to offer insults and no constructive suggestions-hopefully ellen and tm will not have to give up their day jobs -comedy is not their forte.nor intelligence which I think is obvious

. You may not all agree with either Ronnie or myself but at least we have offered constructive remarks which is more than most and those that post here regularly know that I care for a peaceful and happy Israel ,perhaps the "jokers" may consider what they have to offer other than their moment on stage .

Stanislav Koblinski

Of course, that goes for Israel itself. Sullen, inward-looking, self-obsessed, unable and apparently unwilling to play a full part in world events other than as a covert partner to the US in some of its stanger adventures. Israel at the moment seems to project only a paranoid, victimised and defensive face to the world - a negative, needy posture.

What planet are you living on Ronnie!

Check out Facts about the 100th smallest country, with less than 1/1000th of the world's population.

Alexandrovich

It's not pleasant, is it Phil. I've checked back over your posts and, as far as I can see, you have only advocated giving talks a chance.

Well, that would appear to be a cardinal sin, judging from the venomous response.

Maybe it's not too late - you could recant, put the blinkers on and swear never to be so open minded again.

Or risk being called a screeching 'you know what'.

Nope, sure ain't pleasant being moderate and hopeful.

phil

Alexandrovich:)-it doesnt bother me -I know a fool when I see one .but thanks anyway

Zardoz

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon):
"then on reviewing Jewish history over the last 19 / 20 centuries...."
"What pomposity is Ronnie's ! Who is he to lecture Israel and, by implication, the Jewish people, on what it must do to obtain support from the world." community !

One would think that after reviewing the last 19 or 20 centuries you would at least be grateful for a few pointers and suggestions.

James

Phil, you haven’t said anything constructive whatsoever.

What you’ve done is given your tacit endorsement of the Hamas charter’s hateful promise to purse the destruction of the state of Israel. Why are you silent on this?

You want Israel to talk with Hamas, do you? So what’s to talk about? Israel not existing. Wow, that would be a short conversation.

Israel has always been willing to talk provided that its right to exist is recognised.

What’s the point in talking to someone who says: “You have no right to exist”? It makes it a pretty one-sided conversation and, if Hamas gets its wish, a very short one.

When the taqyya mask slips and the undiluted murderous spite of a Palestinian government MP is presented to Ronnie, he decides facts don’t matter at all and simply goes off on a mad rant about Israel’s defenders opening ‘their minds can be opened to the realities of the wider world’. But who’s ignoring reality?

You talk about “angst, hatred, fear and bitterness” but where is it? It’s no good hiding behind pious platitudes just because you’ve been made to look a fool when the facts have been pointed out to you.

Where are the Jewish suicide bombers?

Where are the Jewish politicians making bloodthirsty speeches about world domination?

But you can’t handle that reality, can you?

The lack of evidence goes on and on. Israel is “Sullen, inward-looking, self-obsessed, unable and apparently unwilling to play a full part in world events”.

Where’s he evidence of any of this?

It’s just a litany of slurs. And you talk about being “constructive”. It’s you who’s got the psychosis. You’re totally divorced from reality.

Israel presents “a paranoid, victimised and defensive face to the world - a negative, needy posture”. So they’re being paranoid when they get the body bags out in Sderot to bury the dead, are they? They should be skipping round the place in carnival atmosphere, should they?

It seems none of the terror foisted on Israel is real to you, Ronnie. It’s merely a “posture”. To what end? Why would it posture? Israel wants nothing from the world but to be left in peace. It’s a little thimble on the Middle East map.

Where are all the Jews trying to get non-Jews live by Jewish customs and laws by fair means or foul?

The fiction goes on: “a covert partner to the US in some of its stanger adventures”. Well, it would have to be covert with you because it means you haven’t got to cite any evidence whatsoever. Just hurl the mud and hope some of it sticks.

If “Israel wants support from the world community then it has to learn how to build deeper and mutually advantageous relationships”. Meaning what? When has Israel set out to attack the rest f the world by co-ordinating various Jewish groups across the world?

You don’t even understand the meaning of the word “mutual”. What’s mutually advantageous in the Hamas charter’s assertion that Israel has no right to exist? How does that benefit both sides?

As for this bit of nastiness from Alexandrovich: “Everybody hates us, right?”

You’re so blinkered in your own prejudice, Alexandrovich, you’ve decided that anyone who supports the defence of Israel’s right to exist is part of some part of a Jewish ‘us’.

Who’s ‘us’? Just because I posted underneath a Melanie Phillips’ web entry and support the right of Israel to exist, it doesn’t mean I must be Jewish. But your prejudice just can’t rein itself in, can it?

You’re just like Ronnie, who howls with outrage at Israeli intelligence, but then hasn’t got any source at all for his story. It’s just something ‘I read somewhere’. That’s convenient. Make your mind up first, ask questions later.

For the record, Alexandrovich, I’m not Jewish. Or related to any Jews or even close acquaintance with any Jews. I'm just pointing out a few facts that if you could drop your prejudiced blinkers for one second you might be able to deal with.

Stanislav Koblinski

Zardoz:

"The Jews are a nervous people. Nineteen centuries of Christian love have taken a toll."
- Benjamin Disraeli

Ben-Tsiyon (ha rishon)

Alexandrovich, unfortunately (and I do mean it when I say it)it has been evident time and time again that, in trying to deal with Arabs and "anti-Zionists", "being moderate" is a waste of time. They regard it as weakness and it emboldens them in their intransigence.

phil

James ,you have come a little late to the discussions on Hamas and Hesbollah .I have written on previous threads and my feelings about them have been made very clear -I despise them !! they bring misery not only to us but to the Palestinians and Lebanese peoples -My hope is for new and enlightened representatives to emerge .and for them to do that we must give them a feeling that they will be received graciously,and not with the hatred and intransigence that emanates from what I call the usual suspects -Ronnie has given different views ,but i think he is saying "open your eyes "and that much I have to agree with .although some of his views particularly about Melanie do not concur with mine .
It is heartening to see the support from non-Jewish people such as yourself which is greatly appreciated ,but please understand many of us do not wish to spew out hatred,towards those that have a different opinion .rather we would seek to change those opinions with reason and kindness which is in accord with our culture -perhaps a thankless task but not impossible ,my own family has suffered loss of life in the defence of Israel and has not turned to hate ,so i hope you will excuse me if I do not go down that route .
For the record James there are people who post here with vile remarks and gratuitous insults from both sides of the fence .I expect nothing better from those that hate Jews but I do expect better from ourselves not only because it demeans us but it does not advance our cause either -the neutrals will certainly not be impressed and we will gain no new friends -I have tried on numerous occasions to deter a certain lady from these attacks on behalf of us to no avail ,even though she claims to be of no religion at all.I hope I will never refrain from supporting the path to peace and I hope you may understand my views a little better now

Ronnie

Ben, I know what you are saying and certainly can't argue with it. I just don't want to reach the same final conclusion as you do.

Stanislav, excellent Disraeli quote and I totally agree with it. But I'm not going to check out all your links.

James, why are you shouting at everyone? What is your point? You're even shouting at Jewish people who are grateful for your support and I'm sure you will have another pop at Phil when you get the chance. You are like the sarcastic priest in 'Kicking Bishop Brennan Up The Arse.' Would you like me to quote my source?

Zardoz

Stanislav, that's a great book of quotes you must have but did Israel Zangwill really have the "nerves" to nick it from Disraeli without attribution?

Alexandrovich

"...in trying to deal with Arabs and "anti-Zionists", "being moderate" is a waste of time."
Well, that takes care of all Arabs then.
Okay Ben-Tsiyon. Got any ideas?
I mean, apart from 1912, 1948, 1967 etc. I was referring to the future. Seriously - got any ideas?

James: bully for you, supporting the right of Israel to exist. Don't want to steal your thunder but, everyone else on this thread does also.

And the question to which you so took exception - how about trying to answer it.

I suppose you think that Northern Ireland was a treacherous sell-out. Other people may think that families are not so often bereaved. (Know about this do you?) Granted, it's not perfect but at least it gives the protagonists a breathing space in which to thrash out their perceived injustices, to the detriment of the spoilers on both sides.

Perhaps the example of two people with, ostensibly, differing viewpoints (Ronnie and Phil) having common ground causes you anxiety.

So come on James, what's your big idea?

Certainly far from perfect

Stanislav Koblinski

As far as I know Israel Zangwill never said that.

Please feel free to provide a link that proves me wrong.

zardoz

Hi Stanislav, google provides as many links to the Zangwill version as to the Disraeli one. Repetition doesn't make an attribution genuine. I wouldn't accept any of the links I've seen for either version as authoritative.

It is a wonderfully pithy quote no matter who said it, but I cannot help feeling that if Disraeli had actually said it then the ensuing hoo-ha would have been more widely reported.

ajmalkov

At least this cringing little coward had the good sense to apologize to Melanie. Too bad he didn't have the courage to pubicly denounce a report with which he substantively disagreed.

The problem is not that Melanie didn't do her homework. The problem is that he didn't do his job.

JJ

So Israel is like Northern Ireland is it, Alexandrovich?

Where are all the Catholics trying to convert everyone to Catholicism then?

Even some of the players in that so-called \'peace process\' have gone out of their way to explain to the airheads why it\'s got no similarities to dealing with jihad.

http://www.davidtrimble.org/publications_misunderstanding.pdf

As for \'families are not so often bereaved\'. Have you been to Northern Ireland recently, or have you just picked this tripe out of a BBC website? There are plenty of murders and more frequently torture incidents here, the latter of which rarely even get reported to the police because the \'peace process\' has led to a sort of mob rule. The place is run by local mafias and people who get given a beating would rather keep quiet than face the rap for grassing on their aggressors.

In the new Orwellian \'peaceful\' world here much serious crime is down simply because people are too scared to report it. And my what a lovely story that gives the cosseted London politicians and media folk.

Don\'t get picked up by one of the heavies round here, because in Northern Ireland no-one can hear you scream.

field

I just hope Melanie never criticises MPs for their long holidays...

Stanislav Koblinski

field;

Melanie is not an elected official paid for out of our taxes.

Paul Hill

Hope poor old Mels didn't buy Private Eye on her hols-I think "Bookworm" (P26) may be made of stouter stuff than the gentleman with too many vowels in his name

phil

James you got your answer and now you have disappeared along with the twins tm and ellen (aka?),it seems that apart from your support and or criticism you have proved to be a bully and run away when confronted with the truth -I thought you would have proved a more valued poster than those two-sad !

James

Sigh, Phil. You won’t let me get a word in edgeways, will you? I’ve had what’s known as a weekend.

Phil: “It is heartening to see the support from non-Jewish people such as yourself which is greatly appreciated ,but please understand many of us do not wish to spew out hatred”

Ronnie: “You're even shouting at Jewish people who are grateful for your support and I'm sure you will have another pop at Phil when you get the chance.”

You’re so paranoid Phil, you seem to think I’ve taken issue with you. But it wasn’t you - or your sidekick Ronnie - I addressed that to. It was Alexandrovich. Which is why I wrote: ‘As for this bit of nastiness from Alexandrovich: “Everybody hates us, right?”’

Where does that mention you, Phil?

How does that amount to “You're even shouting at Jewish people”, Ronnie?

Let’s run through it again for the dim twins, shall we?

Alexandrovich
August 22nd, 2008 5:43pm
“Stanislav/James. Everybody hates us, right? Since biblical times. Through every century. By every country. By every organisation. Unremitting persecution, right? Nobody has fed us, sheltered us or given us comfort, right?
First, this post assumed I was Jewish and I delivered a factual correction to that. Second, the post assumes that everybody, everywhere in every age has disliked Jews. Having made this sweeping statement comes this:

“Why's this?”

I thought that was particularly insidious comment and just decided to point out that no, everybody does not hate the Jews and demonstrated that by pointing out the fact that I was not Jewish and that I didn't hate Jews.

You tell me Phil: “James you got your answer”.

Where? Or is that something else you’ve been imagining?

What answers?

Where are the Jewish preachers of hate?

The Jews who so despise the West they’ve been bombing everywhere?

When was this answered?

Has it been on the web on the weekend and been deleted?

Nobody has been bullied or shouted at all. All that’s happened is that I’ve asked a series questions that neither you nor Ronnie have been able to answer and so you’ve gone off making things up to try to divert attention from the fact that you have no answer to these questions.

What is wrong with you?

phil

James I cant ask you to watch my lips ,but I can say read my words -you have answered like a naughty teenager told off by his dad ,perhaps you are ,and it certainly coincides with the childish sarcasm you continually use -try a little reason and politeness ,it works wonders -your last effort was the definition of a paranoid outburst -your heart seems to be in the right place ,but can I say your "mouth" is not

your quote "It’s no good hiding behind pious platitudes just because you’ve been made to look a fool when the facts have been pointed out to you." ---hoist by your own petard--methinks

I will leave Ronnie to assure you that we do not know each other in spite of your ignorant remark about sidekicks-I suggest you grow up and learn to behave yourself with a little dignity,so please do not reply to me unless you can .

Squiz

I’ve just seen a script for that ‘ONLY FOOLS AND DHIMMIS’, but I don’t think that Mr Mark Thompson will like it. Pity, really, as it would make a good vehicle for phil and Ronnie and Alan Rustrigger could play himself.

(Rodney enters flat)

Rodney: Del?

Del: (Reading paper): Yeah.

Rodney: You know you said the terrorist threat was exaggerated?

Del: Yeah.

Rodney: Well, look at this. (Rodney turns to reveal an empty sleeve in his jacket where his arm should be.)

Del: No.

Rodney: Yes, Del, yes.

Del: What, you?

Rodney: On the tube, Del. On the tube.

Del: I don’t know what to say, Rodders.

Rodney: Just one question Del. Who was that man who you sold a rucksack and a bag of nails to a few weeks ago?

Del: I, er, I dunno.

Rodney: You don’t know?

Del: He was wearing a crash helmet so I couldn’t even see his face.

Rodney: A crash helmet?

Del: And he paid £2,000 in cash, so I didn’t think why I should.

Rodney: Cash? Del!

Del: I’m just popping out, Rodders.

Rodney: Come back here, Del!

(Cut to pub where Del is sat with local spiv Alan Rustrigger)

Del: ‘Ere, Trigger, I thought you told me the terrorist threat was exaggerated.

Alan Rustrigger: For Gawd’s sake, Del. You know the only fing my outfit makes any money out of is used cars, wiv the Auto Trader business an’ all that. You don’t fink I know anyfing much beyond that, do ya?

Del: You coulda fooled me the way you harp on, Trigger. Rodders has just lost an arm in a suicide bomb attack and I’m getting’ the rap for telling him the threat weren’t real.

Alan Rustrigger: Everyone else knows I’ve got the credibility of a second hand car salesman, Del. Why diddern you?

Del: Well, I can’t go back ‘ome for a while – not till he’s calmed down. What you so down in the dumps for?

Alan Rustrigger: Jonathan Freedland’s column ‘as just come through on me BlackBerry. I’ve told ‘im again and again not to send it over before lunch. I don’t want to fall asleep before I’ve ‘ad me dinner.

Del: Have you ‘ad to try to spike any more book reviews on ‘is novels?

Alan Rustrigger: Blimey, Del, don’t talk about that. I was expecting the reviewer to fall asleep and not bother filing any copy only it turns out they picked a Red Bull addict to review knowing how dull the stuff is.

Del: Sounds like fiction’s the only thing your lot are good at anyway. Your round.

Ronnie

OK James. Phil and I don't know each other. We just seem to be two normal people who would like the killing to stop sooner rather than later. Does that threaten your position?

Now, can we please have all those questions you asked again, one by one, nice and calm and I and possibly a few others who can be bothered will try and answer them.

I'll make a start. I believe (not know but believe) that there are no Jewish suicide bombers because the Jewish people have a democratically structured state through which co-ordinated action can be taken on their behalf. Therefore they have no need of such desperate personal action.

I would also suggest that the Jewish people have no recent culture of martyrdom and I can't think of any such since the Roman siege of Masada.

For me, putting aside the obvious issues of religious and ideological fanaticism, suicide anything is the act of those in utter despair.

James

Phil, get over it. Can’t Ronnie help you put the toys back in the pram?

And, Ronnie, we nearly got there. Didn’t we? After eighty odd posts, you started to mumble something about religious martyrdom but then seemed unwilling to admit this and then decided to drop the hot potato and run off back off behind “despair”.

You were right first time, Ronnie. Which is why Islamist suicide bombers are found everywhere these days – not just Israel. New York, London, Madrid, the Philippines and so on. Have hate, will travel. No wonder they’re so fond of flying aeroplanes.

We know from Islamists who help organise these things, such as Osama Bin Laden, that they are not in despair at all. Mr Binners is in fact a spoilt brat playboy who discovered religious fanaticism.

We know from the circumstances of Britain’s 7/7 bombers that they’re not in despair at all. One of those characters actually left £125,000 in cash in his flat. Despair, eh?

And above all, to take us back to Israel, we know they’re not in despair because they refuse to compromise on the Hamas charter that refuses to acknowledge Israel’s existence at all. That doesn’t suggest despair to me. To me, that suggests an uncompromising wickedness.

And it’s regurgitated out there on an almost daily basis by people like that Hamas MP. Let’s remind ourselves of his “despair”:
“[Rome would become] an advanced post for the Islamic conquests which will spread through Europe in its entirety, and then will turn to the two Americas, and even Eastern Europe…Allah has chosen you for himself and for his religion, so that you will serve as the engine pulling this nation to the phase of succession, security, and consolidation of power, and even to conquests through da'wa [preaching] and military conquests of the capitals of the entire world.”

Oh, Ronnie, are you sobbing at that yet? Doesn’t it bring a tear to the eye? The spiteful bigot isn’t just upset he hasn’t got his hands on Israel but is in the same depth of “despair” that he can’t get everybody else’s throat too.

They don’t do what they do because of “despair”. Look at the way they tore the Lebanon apart. It’s the same then as it is now for Israel and everyone else dealing with Islamists. As Brigitte Gabriel has put it in the title of her book on the subject of Lebanon, it’s: “Because They Hate”.

Nothing’s changed.

London Calling

Ann
What IS going on here, with my disappearing comments?????

Jose Garcia
You tell me Ann?

Ann
Jose what IS going on here, with my disappearing comments?????

Moderator

Sorry Ann you must have kept your finger on the resend button and crashed Our system down, hopefully our technical team will resolve it soon

The Real Moderator

The moderate below is an impostor, I am the real moderator here and we apologise
that it slipped through our net, we are currently unable to remove this message at present but hopefully our technical team will resolve it soon.

Robbit
Where’s Roger Rabbit?

Stanislav Koblinski
Try pronouncing my name after you’ve had a few.

Ronnie
Oh God! Its like 'Lord of the Rabbits.

James
Where’s the evidence of any of this?

Phil
The Rabbits ate it!!

Field
Please come back soon Melanie, the Rabbits have taken over the lunatic asylum.

Squiz
Don’t worry Del…we can flog this lot down the market once we reach Tehran.

Phil
Sorry Mr Kawczynski…theres no intelligent life down here…

To be continued

INTERMISSION

phil

Ronnie the lad has finally lost it .probably got bad o level results ,maybe a spurs supporter -he can write but cant read ,what is that called ?:)

Ellen

O-Levels, Phil?

How would you know? You haven't even mastered how to use a capital letter in your first name.

Perhaps your primary school carers have given up on you.

Ronnie

Phil, I think its called 50%. I think writing is taking it a bit too far. He can certainly put words on a screen, he must go though one keyboard each week.

James, 'we nearly got there'? You are not even close. Religious fanatacism is the end product you clown. Its the how they got to that, that is important and that is where the lessons are learned. But you are not interested in that. You can only start from where we are now, fighting 13th century wars in the 21st century without even wondering why.

James, you are an even bigger plank than I thought at first and trust me, that's an amazing achievement.

phil

ellen -its like respect -you have to earn it -comprendo?

phil

ellen ,actually comprende?but I dont suppose you would know anyhow

Hanoi Paris Hilton

A superb little essay today on how Gov. Palin is driving the left totally nuts! Mean and heartless, yes, but of course a completely correct analysis.

If you've been following last week's reverse-Swiftboating, double-secret probation mojo regarding the National Review's eminently respectable investigative journalist/social scientist Stanley Kurtz (Ph. D. anthropology, Harvard,) having been Mao Mao-ed: first regarding his efforts to access the Chicago Annenberg Challenge project files (over which The One was chair of the board) to see what The One had contributed to a $140M, sank-without-a-ripple schoolchild radicalization scheme, the brainchild of the execrable William Ayers; thence appearing on U. Chicago Prof. Milt Rosenberg's 35 year tenure WGN (Chicago) 2 hour weekly radio program covering various high minded subjects, with an army of programmed Obamatron 'bots instructed by The One's HQ to bring it all crashing down, yo should. Here's and amazing MP3 of the whole sorry business.

/wgnradio.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=44075&Itemid=467>

Stunning, just stunning!

Keep up the good work, please...

James

“Religious fanatacism is the end product” – yes, of religious indoctrination.

Why are you so scared of admitting that?

What’s behind the desire to create a Caliphate? Religious fervour. That’s what.

It’s as simple as that. Why are you such a coward you can’t deal with that simple fact?

That’s why the last words you hear before a suicide bomb goes off are: “Allah akbar!”

Or if you’re on a plane they’re trying to crash, you might be able to stop them saying that and instead say yourself: “Let’s roll!” and smash the living daylights out of them before they hit their intended target.

Although given your performance here, fellow passengers needn’t expect any courage out of you and the bleating Phil.

Ellen

Respect, Phil? For what? For a dupe like you who swallows taqyya every time he sees it?

phil