Billy Bragg and the fate of the Lib Dems

RCE

They will not only "vote Labour or Green", they will vote UKIP or BNP - as will many former Tory voters.

wrinkled weasel

As if who wins matters. They are all the same. I am not a taxi driver or a man in the street, I am a human being, with a long blog history of analysing and commenting on this and I still think they are all the same.

While William Bargg, the niche market musician and undivist is brimming with confusion, as liberals always will, the rest of us have to sit here and watch a load of very similar people discuss the price of butter.

I am going off to get pissed, and I recommend you do too, Mr Cohen.

Erica Blair

'He lives in some splendour in Dorset,'

Rather as Nick Cohen lives in some splendour in Islington.

What a petty little remark, from a petty little man.

Matthew Blott

I've defended Nick Cohen many times for his comment pieces on the Guardian's Cif so I'm not his usual critic. But it's unedifying watching him pick on Billy Bragg simply to impress his new right-wing friends. It's pretty cowardly because when Cohen does this he always picks soft targets - it's never anyone really unpleasant like Richard Littlejohn because I suspect Cohen wouldn't want to upset someone who writes for a mass selling tabloid. Thus Cohen is guilty of the sort of double standards and hypocracy he likes to think he's always exposing to the world. Billy Brag does not have the fashionable PPE background and is from pretty modest stock, does this mean he shouldn't live in a nice area? Or is it only Cohen's Spectator chums who can do this?

Vulture

If the Dorset peasantry have an ounce of spunk left under their smocks they will, in the spirit of their Tolpuddle martyr ancestors, down clay pipes and pints of foaming zuyder and march on Chateau Bragg, torch it, and roast its steamingly hypocritical 'socialist' owner over an ox.

DavidDP

He was so committed to them, that he failed to understand that the LibDems prefer coalition governments and what Clegg meant that he would be willing to enter into coalition with whichever party got the most votes? Is he thick?

Oedipus Rex

@Erica Goebbels & Blott
I can't see any criticism of Bragg living 'in some splendour' in Dorset. It's merely a description, maybe with the teeniest hint of irony since he's saddled with Libs or Tories.

And don't bleat on about 'right wing friends' & that kind of malarkey. There is absolutely nothing wrong with discussion and criticism between the so-called right and left.

I prefer the rough and tumble of the Speccie possibly because I am, for want of a better description, on 'the left'.

Generally I'd disagree with 3 out of 4 comments on this site but it is through challenging your own assumptions that you lose the smug, self-satisfied, sanctimoniousness that comes with those that only like to preach to the converted.
If you end up there, you might as well hang your jackboots up.

RCE

Matthew Blott @ 3:22
And what makes it a "nice area", I wonder? Fewer blacks? Fewer muslims? Fewer Socialists? Bragg is with Janet Street Porter when it comes to class hypocrisy:

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/lifestyle/yorkshire-living/outspoken_janet_swears_by_a_simpler_life_down_on_the_farm_1_2312283

A J Scott

Why is Melvyn Bragg getting involved in this nonsense? Or is someone taking his name in vain?

Matthew Blott

@ Oedipus Rex

I agree with most of what you say. I always blog under my own name so you can check my comments over at Cif and you'll see I generally share Cohen's disdain for the apologists of Hamas. But it still seems like bullying when he just picks on soft targets all the time.

Matthew Blott

@ RCE

You won't find any argument from me regarding your comments on Jantet Street-Porter but what has that got to do with Billy Bragg?

Archie

If I thought for a moment that any endeavour of mine depended on the spoutings of that arch-hypocrite and nincompoop to the masses Bragg, I would beat a hasty path to Beachy Head, and not to admire the view!

RCE

Billy Bragg has spent his career extolling the virtues of communism, lambasting indivudualism in general (and Thatcherism in particular), and I seem to recall, recently urging the electorate of Barking and Dagenham to further embrace multicultural diversity. It appears that whilst doing so he has been busy building up his wealth, indulging his own social aspirations, and has moved to one of the most expensive and least diverse communites in England - doubtless so his son can go to school without having to worry about the gangs and street crime that blight places such as Barking and Dagenham; his point clearly being that the untermenschen of East London should be grateful for the social deprivation they have received at the hand of socialism, but he wants to achieve better for his own.

So, not a hypocrite at all, then.

Fiona

Cohen is perfectly entitled to mention Bragg's millionaire lifestyle. Bragg is a talented businessman who spotted a gap in the anti-Thatch market for a "British Bruce Springsteen" (yes really!) and made a fortune from the coat-tails of right-on industrial disputes.

He worked the niche market of the TUC/left/student/"yoof" circuit with astonishing success for someone with no discernible talent. Middle-class lefties with plenty of money for concert tickets and albums just adored all that professional working-class socialist East London miner's strike folk music angst.

Wasn't he involved in the "Take Back Parliament" with their purple banners, cheering Nick Clegg on the steps of the Lib Dem HQ?

Ah well, as long as he doesn't write a song about it.

stereodog

I'm constantly amazed by the idiocy of these so called betrayed Labour tactical voters. During the election Nick Clegg said time and again that he would work with the largest party. That was always likely to be the Conservatives. The Lib Dems should not have to kowtow to every voter who cast their ballot for a moronic reason.

Hegemony

I've got nothing but respect for Mr Bragg, and the fact he lives in a palatial mansion? Well, he's earned it through his talents. You may decry them, or - if leftward - think nobody deserves to live in a mansion, but *shrugs* I see no hypocrisy here (just as I see no hypocrisy with socialists swilling champagne, thank you. Since when was there a rule that if you believed in socialism, you had to live on bread and gruel? I missed that meeting, obviously...)

(and, actually, Billy has shown consistency by going to the party he thinks represents him, and then when he thought that party didn't represent him, he went elsewhere. Surely that's adult, and intelligent politics and not buying into tribalism? I'd vote Tory if I thought they represented something I believed in. They never have, so I doubt I ever will...)

But the wider point Nick was making, missed in the orgy of "he was being a meanie about Saint Billy/haha he made a funny about hypocrite Billy" was that the Lib Dems will possibly be wiped out in traditional strongholds, ones which have been theirs for generations (in contrast to the febrile seats they gain for 10 years, lose for 10 years etc).

It's surely much more interesting a point than "Billy has a big house". So why not address that?

Jerry Owen

I'm no fan of Billy Bragg as he is a totalitarian lefty that presumes to tell people how to think and vote, a dangerous trait that blights socialists.
However in voting Libdem he is actually voting for the most leftwing party at present and is quite correct to vote for them in his eyes.
The Libdems are the most pro EU party, the most pro immigration party and are very much in support of 'common purpose' and the New World Order.
Forget party names, look at what they say and do. The old tags of Labour = left, Liberal = middle, Tory = right are long gone.
I see Erica Blair has yet again found something that isn't there!

RCE

Hegemony @ 12:18

Because no-one in their right mind would contest it.

The rest of your post is clearly bait, my friend.

Erica Blair

Right-wingers like to accuse the the Left of having 'the politics of envy' but just look at the outpouring of hate when they see a Socialist in a bigger house than theirs.

The politics of envy? I think the technical term for this is 'projection'.

In2minds

@Fiona -

As music is dear to my heart I've not listened to more than about 20 seconds of Billy Bragg in my whole life. So
I was interested in your "British Bruce Springsteen" theory. Mind you I'm not well up on the work of Springsteen either.

As you say Bragg is 'anti', but I would have thought Springsteen is not, he writes and sings 'about' things dear to his heart, a big difference. Also how funny the weedy limey commie styles himself of the big man from the land of the free!

Finally you are right - "Cohen is perfectly entitled to mention Bragg's millionaire lifestyle"; as you are the fact that Bragg can't sing!

Fergus Pickering

I don't hate Billy Bragg because he's got a big house. I hate him because he's a hypocritical lefty creep. OK. Erica?

Ian Stewart

I am a huge fan of both Billy Bragg and Nick Cohen. I continue to be so. The article has pointed out the central conundrum for the LibDems - they rely on left voters in the shires, and right ones in the cities.
As for Billy Bragg living in Dorset, well many people leave London when they can, especially if they are not tied to it by work.
Nick doesn't like Billy when it comes to a number of issues - AV, tactical voting, the Iraq war etc, but both are at least trying to make the world a better place...

Ian Stewart

For those who deride Billy Bragg's talent - basing that derision on a parody, it is obvious that you have neither heard any of his albums, nor read his lyrics. Most of which have much more to do with love than politics. There is no accounting for taste, but you could at least download Kirsty MacColls version of "A New England" as a starting point...

mazaluk

What goes around comes around and shortly the LibDems will become "The Liberals" again with only a tiny handful of seats in the Commons.

Oh the avarice of power - see where it gets you!

Baron

Ian Stewart @ 2.06: ,,, “but both are at least trying to make the world a better place...”

when you have a minute, will you let me have the name of someone who has ever wanted to make the world a worse place, if you will.

MikeF

I have found it impossible to treat Billy Bragg with anything but derision since I saw him a few years ago doing the 'celeb guest spot' on a popular archaeology programme on - well where else - Channel 4. I can't remember the name of the programme but essentially a well-known face was given a five minute slot to talk about some historical artefact that moved or impressed them.

Bragg's talk was a lot **** in the most literal sense since he chose the Cerne Abbas Giant, the famously priapic hill carving in his now adopted county. His take on it was, of course, the dreary left-wing mantra that it represented 'the people and their naturally uninhibited expression of themselves that governments have always feared and wanted to repress' - those were pretty much his exact words as I rememember.

Well I suppose he is entitled to his opinion because in fact no-one has any real idea what the thing is. There is apparently no record of it before, I think, the 17th century and the most fashionable academic theory now is that it is a satire on Oliver Cromwell put there at the behest of a local royalist landowner.

Alternatively it may even be a representation of Hercules put there by soldiers of the invading Roman army in the 1st century - apparently a cult in that figure's honour was quite popular amongst legionaries. In that case the figure could hardly be less a testament to the 'people'. Instead it becomes an obscene, aggressive parody of a native art-form put there by the soldiers an occupying imperial army whose message, frankly. is: "We are in charge now and if you don't like it, well **** you." Pretty much the sort of thing that the left enjoy saying to everyone else when they get the chance when you think about it - so I suppose his choice made sense though not in the way he intended.

Mark2

"I'm constantly amazed by the idiocy of these so called betrayed Labour tactical voters. During the election Nick Clegg said time and again that he would work with the largest party. That was always likely to be the Conservatives."

I hold no brief for these people but I seem to recall that what Clegg actually said was that he would in effect, offer the largest party "first refusal". I suspect that many thought (contra stereodog) either that Labour still might be the largest party or that the terms the Lib Dems would offer the Tories would be impossible for them to accept. I don't think Cegg actually said simply that he would coalesce with the largest party.

RCE

Erica Blair @ 1:42 - how do you know how big our houses are?

Jerry Owen

Hegemony
Surely if Bragg charged less for his music and ended up with a slightly less palatial home, and those that foolishly buy his out of tune music, would keep more of their hard earned.
Thus the disparity between the 'have's and have nots' would be closer.
Now there's socialism for you....eh!
Or is our Billy a modern champaigne socialist, ie don't do as I do, do as I say?

Keith

Good for Billy - he's worked hard, he deserves to succeed.

(Is this right?)

Erica Blair

Jerry Owen, if you knew anything about Billy Bragg you'd know

1. He always charged less for his albums than most other musicians

2. He'd play benefits for many worthy causes for no fee.

But why let facts get in the way of you prejudices.

ps When I tell my working class friends from the East End how I've got a nice house in the country, they are delighted for me. Here I was showered with abuse for saying the same. Funny old world.

pps Socialists don't drink champagne any more - that's for Spectator-reading bankers who wrecked the economy - we prefer Argentine Alfa Crux Malbec. Roll on the default!

Fergus Pickering

Erica, where exactly IS the East End? I've often wondered. Do you mean the London Borough of Camden? And what do your working class friends do? Drive taxis? Work for the state. Work for the Staggers? Work for anybody? And what are you doing telling them about your mansion? Boasting? Vulgar, surely. Watch Mr Cable. He's going to TAX it. Woof! Mansion eh? Will you marry me?

Matthew Blott

Erica Blair does make a good point - Billy Bragg has always made a point of charging less for his music than other artists.

Jerry Owen

Erica Blair 2.25am (Special Brew time!)
So Bragg charges less than 'most' other musicians (sic) then he isn't that philanthropic is he?
Bragg could still charge less as he is a multi millionaire. He could allow it to be downloaded for free on line.
Why are you obsessed with the size of peoples houses? And why do you mention your working class friends in the East End?
Why not just say you brag (!) to your friends about your nice house in the country? Do you enjoy rubbing that one in? You appear to have a typical hall mark of a socialist, ie your doing better than your East End working class mates so let them know how lucky they are to have a bit of middle class support. Crossing 'class' boundaries, that should put you in Marx's good books if he's looking down on you.
Are you a student by any chance that goes to college in the East End and commutes home weekends to mummy and daddy in their nice house?
Why else would you have friends in the East End if you live in the country?
On a final note could you please understand that people with a different view point to yours aren't bitter right wing people, they are people with a different viewpoint to yours and are quite entitled to speak out.
By the way I don't see you as bitter..just rather funny in a sad sort of way.

Andy Carpark

OK, Let's see if we can picture this.

Erica: 'I've got a jolly big house in the country. Dont'cha know.'

Costermonger: 'Lawks-a-mercy, Erica. Strike a light. Reckon I'm gonna have to go up the apples'n'pears, take the weight off me plates of meat and have a nice cup of Rosie Lee.'

Fiona

I'm surprised he gets away with charging anything at all for his "music", but his talent for business is more Dragon's Den than branch committee.

Fancy a Billy Bragg T shirt? That'll be £20 ta v much. Feel like a mug? Three to choose from - around seven quid. Wipe it with a Bragg tea towel, just £5.70.

"Leftfield Crew" jacket (limited edition!!) a snip at £102. Or as the bard himself might say, "a one-er to you".

De rigueur demo wear for your middle-class student son or daughter - comes in black, natch, handy for the next bloc.

Gear for the well-off, not the workers, and no, I am not making this up.

I bet he's big mates with Bono.

RCE

Erica Blair @ 2:25
You are quite right, I've changed my mind: charging a few quid less for your albums and knocking out some riffs in working men's clubs for free is more than ample exoneration for the strident defence of a political ideology responsible for tens of millions of deaths.

Erica Blair

So funny.

If a Socialist has a big house he's a hypocrite.

If a Socialist has a small house he's envious.

When will the Tories grow up?

John Edwards

I voted Lib Dem in 2005 because of their opposition to the Iraq war and again in 2010 to try and keep the Tories out. Never again.

As I recall Billy Bragg wrote one memorable song with the chorus "between the wars". Apart from that at least he is still on the left unlike some

Alice Through the Looking Glass

Erica Blair. Ah....how can words describe her fragrant loveliness. So modest, so popular, so intelligent, so relevant........

Ridcully

I don't have a problem with either Billy Bragg or Erica Blair having nice houses in the country. What I do have a problem with is the "pull-the-ladder-up" mentality they both display by continuing to adhere to an ideology that would deny others the opportunity to better themselves as they have done.
Mr Bragg and Ms Blair both want to see a collectivised way of life imposed on the "masses" that they have no intention of living under themselves.

B Moss

Bragg is boring. His music is boring too. Like many a celeb lefty he liketh the sound of his own witterings a bit too much.

Best to ignore him really

Ian Townson

I am no big fan of Billy Bragg and it is perfectly legitimate to criticise his tactical voting in favour of Libe Dems, given his working class, left wing background. The snide remark about him living in some splendour isn't legitimate.

It seems that celebrities from working class, left wing backgrounds are expected to wear hair shirts and take vows of poverty, chastity and obedience. They should share the misery and poverty of people they are meant to represent. This will of course render them ineffective as entertainers and political activists. Billy Bragg may have come from a poor background but it is perfectly legitimate to escape from that in order to be more effective.

However celebrities from conformist, middle class, middle of the road backgrounds such as Sir Elton John will be praised to the hilt for their charity work and allowed to live in multi-millionaire splendour. No hair shirts, chastity, poverty or obedience for him. Anyone who can sing maudlin songs about Princess Diana and throw lavish parties is bound to be heaped with praise from his admirers. After all he hasn't deserted his background and after years of entertainment, deserves his riches.

John P Reid

I think Bragg backed the Libdems in 2005 adn tractically voted for them in 97 and 2001, having left the labour party in 1989, over it going multileteral disarnment, the idea that he can come back to labour and start telling how to vote is disgracefull

RCE

Ian Townson @ 10:24
You either haven't read the posts or are pulling the old trick of accusing those with a different view of something they haven't done, despite you knowing it to be untrue. No-one has mentioned hairshirts, poverty, chastity or obedience other than you. Fellow Bragg defenders have pulled the same stunt by bringing up house size.

The point that I and others have made is that whilst Bragg has no problem with personally subscribing to Tory and Thatcherite values by using his talents as a means of accessing social mobility, he doesn't think that others should be encouraged and enabled to do the same; instead they should suffer the abject misery that socialism has brought to every area it has touched. To this assertion I'd be interested to hear a refutation; the fact that you, and all the other co-defenders, cannot do so is telling.

Jerry Owen

Ian Townson
Billy Braggs contradictary political position comes from the fact that he is happy to live in his mansion in whitest monocultural Dorset which he is of course entitled to, but dares to campaign in Barking and Dagenham for labour which endorses mass immigration into the area.
Bragg endorses immigration that lowers wages for the local indigenous population which he doesn't have to suffer himself.
By default local services are overstretched which means the local indigenous will suffer yet again, which of course Bragg won't have to suffer.
The logical conclusion is that Bragg like many socialists pushes on other people that which he doesn't have to experience or suffer himself.
If he is a fan of Barking and Dagenham being an overcrowded, poor, multiculti area with overstretched services and high unemployment why doesn't he simply move there?
Alternatively he could campaign for the government to move more third world immigrants into Dorset or his village instead of them going to East London. He could campaign for his surrounding green areas to be built on with flats for these people. Why doesn't he?
His wealth by the way comes from a trait of the capitalist system, that is mass production of cd's and dvd's made on a production line by poorly paid workers.
This I have no problem with, it's his contradictory politics that are the problem.

RocketDog

To be fair to Bragg
He is sincere in his beliefs. A friend of mine used to play bass for him intermittently and whenever it came time to divvy out the winnings Bragg split it equally amongst the band (his good self included)
Never heard of Sir Bob nor Bono doing that ...