Interview with a Danish journalist

Rhoda Klapp

Do you really really think that whether you believe in Keynes makes you left or right? If it worked, why would you not believe in it? When it does not work, why would you not deisbelieve it. Did FDR do better in fixing the depression? Do you really think so? I know it is the legend, but if true, just how long does it take?

An economic theory holds, or it does not. It shouldn't depend on where one is on the political spectrum. Nor should where you stand on the EU, and I am glad to see you don't go along with the usual paradigm. But I despair for your logic, any impositin on members by the 'progressive' EU is not right-wing, but fascist. Authoritarianism cares nothing for wings, left or right.

fergus pickering

NO economic theory 'hold'. These are not scientific laws. These are views about the way things work and they have everything to do with your other views. Keynes was a socialist so he produced some socialist theories. Friedman was a conservative so he... You look for what you want to find and behold...

Nick Cohen

Sure, Rhoda and fair enough. It's just odd that people who deplore austerity in the UK feel that it is still liberal or progressive to support the EU as it follows disastorously strict policies which sure as hell won't work

Jeremy

Nick Cohen:

"He came to talk to me about British Euroscepticism, and I did my best to explain."

If your friend is seeking an explanation for British Euroscepticism, then he could do far worse than than simply read Niall Ferguson's article in The Daily Beast, from which I have extracted the following:

"The course on which the continent has now embarked means not just the creation of a federal Europe, but a chronically depressed federal Europe. The Eurocrats have exchanged a Stability and Growth Pact—which was honored only in the breach—for an Austerity and Contraction Pact they intend to stick to. The United Kingdom has no option but to dissociate itself from this collective suicide pact, even if it strongly increases the probability that we shall end up outside the EU altogether.

"Many more brickbats will rain down on David Cameron in the days to
come. But he has done the right thing. And he will swiftly be vindicated by events on the cut-off continent."

You can find the rest of his excellent article here:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2011/12/09/niall-ferguson-great-britain-saves-itself-by-rejecting-the-eu.html

Chris

The Greeks have a little way to go before they connect with reality; this is still a country where hairdressers can retire early because theirs is a dangerous profession, and where the wage bill of the railways is four times the revenue from fares.

Simon Denis

Frankly, the danger which faces us now is of lib lefties returning to their hard left roots, once the "capitalist system" which they themselves have stuffed up with euro and borrowing appears to collapse. Sadly, they are more influential now than ever, dominating the airwaves and the institutions of culture and government. The veto, the difficulties of the euro are only a prelude to the vast conflicts about to engulf us; conservatives, who are all too prone to be complacent, with their belief in "sense" and "pragmatism", must make sure that they avoid their prevaling temptation. Otherwise, the left and the hard right will go to it over the corpse of civilisation.

David L

Time to declare war on the BBC. Why should British taxpayers, who overwhelmingly see through the euro scam, have to pay for pro-Brussels propaganda from the Beeb? Replace the licence fee with a subscription please.

Old Slaughter

Replace the word 'euroscepticism' with 'democracy' is this piece and you're on to something.

Ruairidh

I think it is wrong to call the German fiscal austerity plan as right wing. While financial prudence is more a trait of the right it isn't exclusively so and furthermore what Merkel is insisting on goes well beyond prudence and into fiscal masochism. Also I think it is wrong to think of euroscepticism as arising from opposition to the day to day tactics and policies of the EU. It certainly adds to the mix but at the core is an opposition based on the profound democratic deficit at the heart of the EU and the arrogance and deceitfulness of the Eurocrat federalists who continuously push their ‘ever greater union’ policies despite what the people actually want. There is a disrespect for nations and peoples that is borderline totalitarian.

Take the recent crisis. The treaty proposed by Merkel and Sarkozy does absolutely nothing to alleviate the debt crisis. Limiting deficits from 2013 onwards does not help the colossal funding crisis hitting the eurozone in 2012. If it was about removing moral hazard to allow the ECB to be let loose then there would be more indications in the margins that this was the quid pro quo. So why are Merkel and Sarkozy doing it? In the end it looks like nothing more than another power grab; an attempt to control and subjugate. More euro regulation with tax rates and budgets approved by a commission German and France can wield their influence.

RB

Needless to add, Hoover and Mellon’s uncompromising economic morality ensured that the Great Crash of 1929 turned into the Great Depression of the 1930s.

Wrong on that but ok...

Simon Stephenson.

Rhoda Klapp : 5.15pm

"But I despair for your logic, any impositin on members by the 'progressive' EU is not right-wing, but fascist. Authoritarianism cares nothing for wings, left or right."

Spot on again, Rhoda. The problem for the mainstream left is that their "solutions" all involve more authoritarianism, and more authoritarianism is the signature of both Fascism and Socialism. The reality of the enmity between Fascist and Socialist is not that there are massive differences of ideology - there aren't - but that Fascists want high-authoritarianism to be controlled by their gang, and Socialists want it to be controlled by theirs. It's not about the size of the pie, or about the fairness of its distribution, it's about which clique is given the opportunity to get its grubby hands on it first.

Mycroft

I found it curious when speaking to people of similar (fairly middle-of-the-road) views from the Continent, how the prevalent views there about the course of the EU are accepted without question, and indeed as unquestionable. To criticize, from a pragmatic point of view, the approach that is being taken to the Euro crisis, can often be taken as indication that one has some Europhobe ideology, or must be despeartely right-wing. Such people don't seem to recognize that their own attitudes are based on a prevailing ideology quite as much as those of any Europhobe ideologue. This cannot be a good thing because it prevents them from being open to new ideas, or even appreciating that one can have honest doubts about many aspects of the EU without being a 'Europhobe' or worse. Such a gulf of incomprrehension.

fergus pickering

The EU is a religion, like Marxism, for those who find God difficult. You don't argue; you just worship.

Herbert Thornton

Fergus Pickering description of the EU is beautifully accurate.

And it applies moreover, not just to those who find God difficult, but to those who find reality difficult.

I'm reminded of Deng Xiao Ping's saying - that it doesn't matter whether it's a Communist cat or a Capitalist cat - what really matters is - does it catch mice?

HJ

This article confusingly conflates whether or not someone is pro-European integration with issues to do with the current economic crisis and so goes onto debate whether the economic response to the crisis is 'liberal'.

The original issue was whether Eurosceptics are somehow illiberal - nothing to do with the current crisis. I fail to see why being against EU integration is in any way 'illiberal'. Can anyone explain?

Willy Wireworm

If the continentals are as brainwashed as they appear to be, one wonders what form their inevitable disillusion will take.

A leftie GP

I agree with the article. Cohen is also right to point out the Labour party has always been eurosceptic. In fact the SDP split was not over clause 4 or CND but Europe. Mr Cohen won't like me saying this but many of his views are close to the arguments put forward by Benn in the 70's and 80's. It does amaze me how many lefties ( mainly liberal lefties) swoon over the EU. Where I disagree with Cohen is that he would like an atlantic alliance with the US republicans. Personally I would like to see more independence from any block.