The Great Iraq Debate

marina cambiano

I did not find Mr Rory Stewart's comments on the alleged cowardice and incompetence of the Italian troops in Iraq funny in the least. What I certainly find cowardly is to make such insulting and gratuitous comments knowing that no representative of the Italian military or State is present at the debate and can rebut his claims. Had I been in the audience I would asked him if such observation were prior, during or after the massacre of many incompetent cowards at the hands of suicide bombers. Your paper seems to find such comments funny, I am glad I don't share your sense of humour! once a deputy governor in the provinces of Maysan and Dhi Qar, urged a swift exit from Iraq. ‘Embarrassment rather than good policy is now leading our engagement.’ His sincerity and his charm came across very powerfully and he told us a salutary tale. In 2004 his compound had been under constant attack, receiving 100 incoming mortars a day. The nearby Italian force, 20 minutes away, usually took at least seven hours to arrive with reinforcements. After a year’s absence he returned and found everything transformed. The area was completely pacified thanks to the Italians. But it wasn’t their ‘good intentions’ that had done the trick but ‘their cowardice and incompetence’. This had forced the Iraqis to assume control. His funny, modest and disarming speech attracted grateful waves of applause. Andrew Neil responded by pointing towards the back of the hall. ‘The Italian ambassador and his bodyguards are waiting for you there. And they’re experts in special rendition

eliXelx

So does Tony Benn think that strapping a bomb on the body of a 16-year-old half-wit, or a 63-year-old-man riddled with cancer, is more honourable, more just, more noble, more justified than droppin a bomb?

giovanni brauzzi

The comments of Rory Stewart about the Italians were offensive and untrue. Even worst the final remark of Andrew Neil. Not funny at all. One of the mistakes of the post-Iraq war was to give governing powers to unexperienced, arrogant youngsters like Stewart.

aldo

Sir, In your report of The Spectator's excellent Iraq debate, you mention that Rory Stewart called the Italian forces in the US lead Coalition "cowardly and incompetent". I was present at the debate and the virulent arrogance with which Mr Stewart spoke is quite unjustifiable. He seems to have forgotten that, unlike many other members of the European Union and NATO - France, Germany, Belgium for example - Italy supported the coalition with troops. He has also forgotten that in Nassirya 12 Italian Carabinieri (military police), 5 soldiers, and 2 civilians were murdered by terrorists who drove a truck filled with explosive into the Italian barrracks. As of today Italy has suffered 33 deaths in Iraq, more than any other member of the coalition except for the US and Britain. Mr Stewart's and Mr Tony Benn's argument that the coalition should in effect surrender in Iraq lost support during the debate thanks to the very clear explanation of facts and real numbers by Mr Shawcross and Lt Hegseth and from the audience, some of whom had direct experience in Iraq. Mr Benn's insistence that there is no difference between a suicide bomber and a military officer was greeted with the scorn it deserved. It was as shocking a remark as Mr Stewart's contempt for the Italians. Together they betrayed the moral and intellectual vacuity of their position. Yours Aldo Palma Rome

Silvio Borraccino

Rory Stewart another brave British who fills his mouth about the Italians at war? Has he forgotten about British cowardice in Singapore when 150,000 of the mighty British empire troops surrendered to the Japanese without firing a shot and preferred to die in the Japanese labour camps? What an hero talking like that when 17 Italians died in Nassiriya for a war that was started and promoted by the US and their puppet ally UK. And he lectures the audience about humility!

Daniele Prandelli

Fanny was that Mr Rory, the former Coalition Deputy Governor of Amarah and Nasiriyah, didn't say the reason why UK troops and base was so much under attack from insurgents and why since so long .... Anyone can draw his conclusion but, the Nasiriya region was and still stabilized and reorganized by Italian “incompetence” in less than one year!..!! Who can believe it ? Even Mr. Rory himself was astonished about the result…. Humility, yes Humility did the trick dear Mr. Rory…read the history…. Humility is not airy toothpaste....too easy for you to win the sympathy of the hall. Daniele Prandelli Brescia ITALY Quote: By these things examine thyself. By whose rules am I acting; in whose name; in whose strength; in whose glory? What faith, humility, self-denial, and love of God and to man have there been in all my actions? Jackye Mason

Denni

Well, everybody know how the English are made -slandering is the only art in which nobody can beat them. Yes, Yes, Italian incompetence and cowardice. THANKS, PEOPLE OF HEROES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Denni

I correct myself -naturally, many British are gentleman, no doubt, and their military record is not questionable. Anyway, when one openly speaks of "Italians cowards and incompetents", probably knowing very few of what the Italians have done and are doing, well, it reminds me the typical British attitude of superiority, scorn and sufficience towards the other people -Italians, last of all in the list. So, I don't think all the English are "slanderers" but these words certainly are. Best Greetings

Jessie Cross

Rory Stewart is nothing but an over-inflated, arrogant and ignorant Brit - the kind which we had hoped had vanished from the face of the Earth - vain hope! Still believing in Rule Britannia, now from behind the skirts of the USA. These people still live in a fanciful world of their colonial past which gave them this sense of superiority - which masked their total ignorance of every other culture they ever came into contact with. People who should ask questions and not emit summary and totally false judgements. I am amazed that it is not obvious to the knowledgeable Mr. Stewart that he and the other Brits were a large part of the problem in Iraq and never part of any solution? The way Britain never has been good for or left anything worthwhile in any place it has colonized or tried to.

mike in Canada

Rory-spinless-Smith can now crawl back under his bed, his anti-Italian rant is noted, I suprised he did not include the US-as according to many Brits they are the source of all problems and Jews. At least these fine Italian men are there. You probobly can't put much faith in what Smith says anyway. Where are the French - IN VICHY?, the Belgiums and Germans. If these three countries ever need Nato (The Russain Bear is flexing its mucles) I hope the rest of Nato yawns and goes back to sleep.

Michele

"I did not find Mr Rory Stewart's comments on the alleged cowardice and incompetence " well me neither, but they are unfortunately true. The state of the Italian army is a sorry one to say the least. As I have learn over the years, being a soldier in Italy is a "lavoro fisso" (just a stable income). As I have met a lot of former Italian recruits in my time one typical comment I came across was "Un esercito solo buono a fare dei danni" (an army good only to cause damage), and that came straight form the horse's mouth. I believe that Mr. Stewart may have come in contact with a particularly bad platoon, but as others have told me, in location patrolled by the Italian sodiers checkpoints don't really check vehicle, and crowd control is left to its own devices. It is a shame, but it is the truth. Still, Mr Stewart should have had counter part to rebut his claims, but that would have possibly put Italy to even more shame.

Michele

for Silvio Borraccino your acoount of the Battle of Singapore is not entirely correct, please see: http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/fall_of_singapore.htm and: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Singapore

Ron

The language of this debate is childish as has been the language used in general about this situation in the middle east.If your against then its poodles and puppets that are all the rage.People argue with narrow mindedness and ill informed views,many make their stance based on emotional like or dislike of the polaticians involved.The situation over in the middle east is a super complex issue that no one has the answer to.What we can say is that the middle east is going through an enormous change which many claim is necessary to bring it into the 21st century.When Europe went through its major change last century it cost the lives of tens of millions resulting in relative peace and better understanding between the nations since.If we look back at history then we see clearly that change is never easy and is usually resisted by the religious.For whatever reasons religions have always been resistant to progress,not so long ago our christain churches demonized rock and roll which they now use as a recruiting tool? sorry for digressing there the point I want to make is that the middle east has for years been a threat to our world and themselves it was inevitable that at some point in history there was going to be an enormous conflict there,this we are now seeing and it will get worse just as these wars do.Its not so much a clash of cultures and ideologys its more to do with world security and middle east security.The christians wanted world domination 300yrs ago some say that the muslims are going through that collective egotistical state now conciously or sub conciously.If the Christian had modern weaponery when they called all against them the infadel then the world would have taken a turn for the worse.Religion is fine so long as its seperate from state which is not the case in the middle east.I know a lot of pople who hated saddam hussien and wanted something done as they percieved a threat from him,many of those same people are now claiming why did the many of the worlds armies intervene in Iraq?Had nothing been done they would be saying "you know something should be done about that nutcase".Its a case of the devil you do the devil you don't.