We should not absolve Islam of the crimes committed in its name

A. MacAulay

Perhaps it would be helpful to try to define a bit more closely, from our perspective, the categories of Muslims we are dealing with. Good or bad doesn't seem to tell us much beyond that both are antithetical to our shared values, moral perspectives and even our existence.

The girl in Bangladesh must have come from a family so poor, badly connected and lacking protection that she was fair game for the man who raped her. In other words her family cannot afford a dowry. She is now damaged goods as well. The justice she calls for is what we call natural justice and believe it to be self-evident but if she goes on asking for it she has a fair chance of being murdered. These then are everyday, rural Muslims who have come in their tens of thousands to Britain and these are the "Good" Muslims because they are here to work, pay taxes and secure all our pensions in the future.

For the "Bad" Muslims, this world is merely a transitory phase in which, if they prove themselves worthy, they will pass through to a never-ending world of glory and ecstasy. Proof of worthiness might be mass-murder and mayhem even amongst their fellow Muslims as God will claim his own, but especially of and against un-believers and apostates.

Our problem is that the former, when confronted with our world, produces a small but very dangerous quantity of the latter. The answer of our Government(s) has been to encourage them in this whenever possible.

If there was ever anything stupider than this in the entire history of mankind, I've never heard of it.

P.S. A quick whip-round amongst Spectator readers would quickly produce the couple of hundred quid that girl needs as a dowry in order to find a husband.

Jez

"If that principle were to be applied here, the rapist would have got 20 years in prison and the victim afforded compensation and counselling."

**WRONG!**

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1246195/Boy-13-raped-woman-friends-jailed-just-years.html

"A boy of 13 who overpowered a woman then raped her in front of his two friends will spend just three years locked away for his crimes..... Balal Khan - thought to be one of the youngest convicted rapists in Britain - targeted the 20-year-old as she walked home..... He subjected her to a severe beating then screamed at her 'Do what I say or I'll kill you', before putting her through the ordeal of a terrifying sex attack."

C Cole

@ A. MacAulay

Regarding the girl's dowry, I was under the impression that there were numerous western charities active in Bangladesh. If matters were as simple as you suggest, surely one of them would have intervened in this way by now?

A report in the Belfest Telegraph (link below) cites 'human rights activists' as a source. Assuming they were in the country, I'm guessing they weren't in a position to do anything about the dowry situation. (Incidentally, the paper's report says the girl has already been given the 101 lashes.)

If anyone with a knowledge of the region - which I certainly don't have - can suggest a practical way of helping this girl and others like her, I'm sure there are lots of people on this forum who would be interested to hear about it.

Link:

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/world-news/raped-girl-given-101-lashes-in-bangladesh-14651906.html

A. MacAulay

@C Cole. You are quite right. I am informed that dowries are forbidden under Bangladeshi law. Also under the "Women and Childrens Repression Act” (1995) and the "Repression of Violence Against Women and Children Bill” (1998) heavy criminal penalties, 10 years, Life Imprisonment and even the Death Penalty are possible in the case of rape.

Also the Sharia Court set the punishment of a fine for the father because he allowed his daughter to find herself in a situation where she must expect to be raped, that is somehow without the protection of the family. Further, with some wisdom, by treating the matter as rape they probably avoided a death by stoning sentence for consensual sexual relations. This makes all the difference.

logdon

Careful Rod or the Guardian will get you.

"Media and politicians 'fuel rise in hate crimes against Muslims'

"Report blames 'Islamophobic, negative and unwarranted portrayals of Muslim London' for increase in attacks in the capital.

www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2010/jan/28/hate-crimes-muslims-media-politicians

Here's what they slander Melanie Phillips with.....

'The study mentions no newspapers or writers by name, but alleges that the book Londonistan, by the Mail writer Melanie Phillips, played a part in triggering hate crimes.

"Islamophobic, negative and unwarranted portrayals of Muslim London as Londonistan and Muslim Londoners as terrorists, sympathisers and subversives in sections of the media appear to provide the motivation for a significant number of anti-Muslim hate crimes," it says.'

Ken

Yes Jez but Balal Khan's religion was likely a factor in the sentence cited.

John David Barnett

Balal Khan's tender years might have been a factor, too.

Herbert Thornton

Rod and Melanie seem to be almost the only journalists who grasp the seriousness of the governmental policy of encouraging the entry into Britain of Islam and its subsequent growth.

The only modern political leader who has ever implemented a policy to control it (unless perhaps you count Stalin) has, I believe been Kemal Ataturk. His policy has worked only because he instituted the Army as an instrument of control over it – but even in Turkey Islam still simmers beneath the surface and it is unclear whether the control over it can be permanent.

Unless a British equivalent of Ataturk comes into power, Britain will become a new Balkans or even a country like Afghanistan or Pakistan.

People need to ask themselves whether they want to bequeath such a country to their children and grandchildren.

A. MacAulay

@Herbert Thornton. We've already had an Ataturk. Goes by the name of Oliver Cromwell. Lasting legacy? Not the army, but a Parliament that gained control of national taxation. Do we need a second Nol? No way! If Parliament does it's duty.

Rowland Nelken

Muslims are tied to the Koran and Hadiths in a way that few Jews and CHristians are now tied to the Bible. The Koran and both Biblical testaments are homophobic. Exodus and Joshua glorify genocide, and the Book of Revelation is nothing if not an exultation in the Death of all Christ's enemies at the End of Time, as proclaimed by Jesus himself.

Most Jews and Christians have fudged their attitudes to Holy Books for centuries, and can maintain the weird fiction of divine inspiration whilst sidelining the nasty or ridiculous bits (6 Day Creation, Jonah and the Whale, Hellfire). The Bible is a book of supreme authority only in the manner that the Queen is an absolute monarch.

This is yet to happen with the Koran. Hence stoning of adulters, violent Jihad and the rest are still live and dangerous issues. Maybe the 'respectable, mainstream, peaceful' people of the Book will have to categorically dethrone their Holy Books in their entirety. SO long as they are seen as divine works of supreme authority, 'fundamentalism' and all its horrors is bound to recur. The 'peaceloving, reasonable mainstream', with their veneration of Holy books only lend legitimacy to the violent whackos.

Jez

And the only reason why we've heard of this one is his 'tender' years JDB.

Herbert Thornton

A.MacAulay -

I think you're mistaken. Cromwell was a puritanical religious fanatic, very similar in many ways to the Ayatollah Khomeini or the clerics of the Taliban. His men - just to cite one example - destroyed stone carvings on many English churches just as the Taliban destroyed many ancient Buddhist rock sculptures - they smashed them to pieces.

Ataturk was certainly no a religious fanatic. He was very much against religious fanaticism and Theocracy. Indeed, his pithy definition of Islam was one that, if you were to repeat it in a no go area in today's Britain - or even anywhere in London - would likely result – even if the police got to you first, and arrested and charged you for causing offence by saying it, and you were then, as would probably happen, sent to prison - in your eventually being stoned to death or murdered as was Pim Fortuyn.

Ataturk's great achievement was that he brought Turkey into the modern world as a less barbaric and more modern and secular state which has lasted for many decades.

Turkey needed him then. Britain – indeed the entire world - desperately needs somebody like him now.

A. MacAulay

Herbert Thornton, the parallel between Cromwell and Ataturk is that they appeared at a time of national crisis and set the historical course for the time after them. Whatever their foibles, ideology, personality cult, etc. they were untypical for the epoch in which they lived.

Amongst the Modern dictatorships which arose after WWI, Ataturk's transformation of Turkey was a real success story, but about which we shouldn't delude ourselves that he gave anyone who got in his way a very hard time indeed. On balance good, as compared to Hitler, Mussolini, Stalin, Franco, Salazar and numerous South Americans murderous bufoons. Likewise Cromwell, who settled the Civil War in favour of Parliament which allowed England to develop the most advanced constitution in Europe and amass a world empire. The rest of Europe was embroiled un the 30 Years War which was about whether Shia or Sunni, OOPS!, Catholic or Protestant christanity was the better way to heavan.

I'm not sure that I see any parallels between Britain in 2010 and Turkey in 1919 though.

Herbert Thornton

A.MacAuley,

While most of your comment is accurate (I would not, for example, include Salazar in the same group as Hitler and Stalin, while I would have added Mao and Pol Pot) I don't see it as having much bearing on the progressive deterioration of Britain that is being brought about by the all-pervasive corrosion of political correctness which is facilitating the steady growth of Islam.

You say that you doubt there are any parallels between Britain in 2010 and Turkey in 1919. I suggest that depends on what is meant by “parallel”.

In the sense that Turkey in 1919 was in desperate need of modernisation whereas Britain might now be said to be largely at the forefront of modernity, I agree that there is little parallel.

But Turkey, in 1919, was about to be modernised. Britain in 2010 on the other hand, the developments that are taking place are moving in exactly the opposite direction to Ataturk's reforms. To put it another way, Turkey was about to be rescued from the determination of Islam to turn it into a dictatorial Islamic Theocracy while Britain on the other hand is moving, slowly but inexorably, towards Balkanisation and perhaps eventually via a civil war, towards becoming a dictatorial Islamic Theocracy.

That is why I believe that Britain is now in such need of it's own version of Ataturk.

A. MacAulay

Ok, Herbert Thornton you think an enlightened despot a.k.a. dictator will save us and I think we have enough problems without having to deal with a dictatorship as well. We shall have to agree to differ.

Rowland Nelken

We can do without the Messianic (or Mahdic) certainty of a Cromwell. In his day, though, almost no one disputed that God was at the pinnacle of our Constitution. God has been pushed, like CHristianity generally, to the ceremonial fringes of society and the political system. WIth Christianity, however, there is a long precedent. Until its adoption by Rome in the 4th century, Christianity was not an integral part of any state.

Islam, from its inception, was a political system. Hence for true believers, Islamic fulfilment demands that clerics hold the reins of political power, i.e, the legislature, judiciary et al. To overturn the Caliphate in the 1920s Ataturk had to act in a way that would be unacceptable in a democracy.

My contacts with Muslim sixth formers often fill me with alarm. They appear convinced that Islam is set to take over the world. They have no qualms about violent Jihad, should that be the only means whereby to achieve that end. The execution of apostates is perfectly OK. Rejecting the law of God deserves death.

Those silly phrases 'celebrate diversity' and 'multiculturalism' are solidly embedded concepts amongst 'The Blob' (to borrow a term from another Speccie article).

Muslims, (and the rest of us) need educating about our own culture, our hard won democracy and religious freedom. Few students I talk to, even history students, seem to know that England's struggle to break free from a theocratic government is a centuries long story and a major theme in England's development.

Radical Muslims (forget 'Islamists' - that is a spurious term to try and separate 'nice' from 'nasty' Islam) imagine they have the key to a theocratic future. Knowledge of England's history may inform them that they have nothing to offer but a return to an Islamic distortion of our distant, primitive and theocratic past.

A. MacAulay

We should test our assumptions. As seen from the "Islamic" world, much spoken of but in reality hardly a unity, Europeans fit into 2 categories: The Mediterranean/Iberic which undoubtedy today dominates the economic area around that sea and South America as well. And the Northern or Trans-Alpine Europeans, divided into roughly 2 blocs, but which dominate from North America to Siberia, once round the world, as a politically diverse, economically integrated and cultural unity. The EU, NAFTA, and whatever the Russians now call their empire produce wealth and goods in a way that is a couple of industrial epochs ahead of everybody else and we are so used to pushing, even unintentionally, other people around that we don't even notice when we are doing it. Europeans, besides being clever, inventive, inquisitive and whatever else are also simply spectacularly violent.

It's not that we are invulnerable because no one ever is and it's not that we're not unified because we never will be, but seen as a cultural mass, "Europe" is the biggest number on the planet. Those parts of the world which belong culturally to "Islam" are not playing in the same league. They are torpid, backward and very badly led and concern thwmselves with theology whilst we build CERN. We buy their oil to their inflated prices because it's still cheaper than everything else. Just taking their resources would be time consuming and in the long run too expensive, but theoretically we could. See Iraq. They have.

In the end we will have to impose an Islam on them acceptable to us and just try to live with the nutters.

Herbert Thornton

A. MacAulay -

You say that “In the end we will have to impose an Islam on them acceptable to us and just try to live with the nutters.”

One the surface of it that sounds practical, but I think you are basing it on a mistaken premise. In particular you say that “..seen as a cultural mass, "Europe" is the biggest number on the planet......”

Unfortunately, the cultural mass of Eurasian “Europe” is, by reason of the much higher Muslim birthrate metamorphosing, far faster then people like to admit, from being European in nature to being an Islamic cultural mass.

Unless the that metamorphosis is stopped – and indeed reversed – western Europe is going, over only a few decades, to cease to be “European”. Then we will be in no position to impose an Islam acceptable to us – much less to live with the nutters. It will be the nutters imposing whatever form of Islam they want on us – or rather on our children and grandchildren.

A. MacAulay

Herbert Thornton. I suggest you take a look at the so called "Youth Bulge" theory. The most likely predictable result for societies who produce too many young men is civil strife. Or simply put, when there's too much testosterone loose on the streets with nowhere to go then trouble is sure to follow.

http://www.cfr.org/publication/13093/

When we go for class instead of mass we will maintain our lead. A concept just a little too complex for British politicians of recent vintage, but taken to heart in Germany, for instance. Abolishing Grammar Schools is not an option here.

A. MacAulay

P.S. German Universities will soon offer degree courses in Islamic Theology in order to break the flow of otherwise illiterate, conservative rural Imams from Turkey who do not speak German. So, step No.I is to impose our standards on their priests as holders of public offices.

Herbert Thornton

A.MacAulay -

I agree with you that Grammar Schools should not be abolished - I went to one myself.

You are also right to say that "we" should impose our standards on Muslim clerics. But that is extremely unlikely to be enough. I wish the Germans luck in their efforts, but they will need it.

You and I are obviously in considerable agreement about the existence of the problem and it's nature, but I cannot believe that if "we" go for class instead of mass "we" will maintain our lead.

I say this because "we" in this context cannot include the Muslim segment of the population. The Muslim population is dedicated to doing the opposite - it is going for mass. Doing that is inherent to Islam, especially when living among infidels. I do not believe that education can persuade them otherwise, while to enforce on them the policy of class before mass would require something like the one child policy adopted by China.

Furthermore, even if it were to be forced on them, the result would - as in China - be fewer Muslim girls and a considerable excess of Muslim boys - and the most likely predictable result of producing too many young men is, as you say, civil strife.

A. MacAulay

The American political scientist, Vali Nasr has pointed out in an interview in the current, Der Spiegel that Islamic countries are least involved of all in the global economy. Individuals have practically no concept as to how radicals damage their wider interests because they hardly trade with the outside world. When that changes then the radicals will loose their broad, at least tacit support. The Islamic world needs, in his opinion, is not a Calvin or Knox, but an Adam Smith.

Herbert Thornton

Vali Nasr's idea that Islam needs an Adam Smith more than it needs a Calvin or a Knox seems, to me, to miss a vital point.

Without the changes in religious thinking that were gradually disseminated during the 200 years after Calvin and Knox (who lived in the 16th century) it is most unlikely that the ideas of Smith (who lived in the 18th century) would have had much influence.

Looking at the Islamic world, I suggest that Muslim versions of Calvin and Knox are a great deal less likely to be listened to than were our 16th century reformers – and their chances of being put to death as apostates or heretics are much higher than were Calvin's on Knox's. And even if some Muslims are influenced by such new ideas, even the passage of 200 years will not result in their widespread dissemination.

I wish it were otherwise, but I believe that in that environment, any likelihood of a Muslim version of Adam Smith being the catalyst for a profound Islamic reformation is extremely remote.

A. MacAulay

I suggest, Arthur Herman's, "The Scottish Enlightenment- The Scot's Invention of the Modern World". Knox was certainly a religious fanatic and fundamentalist, but also created a presbyterian state (except in the Highlands) where literacy was almost universal because everyone had to be able to read the Bible. The unforseen consequence being that they read a lot of other books too, and having got used to theological disputing, they also got used to thinking. Protestant work ethic, and a literate middle class gave birth to an empirical philosophy with champions such as Hume, Smith and Kames.

The latter then were far removed from the former, but could never have been born without it.

Occam's Razorboy

Given this, explain why Israel "overreacts?"

Herbert Thornton

A.MacAuley -

I agree, the unforeseen result of Knox's influence was universal Scottish literacy which had the highly beneficial results you describe.

But would we be right to assume that universal literacy always has beneficial results? Post WWI Germany for example was highly literate and so was Hitler who was a man who was certainly used to thinking.

Yet he and his book Mein Kampf led to horrible results. Consider too the influence of the Koran and the fact that students in many Islamic schools become literate enough to memorise it in its entirety. I don't know whether Osama bin Laden can recite it by heart, but he is certainly a very literate man and moreover one who thinks.

Perhaps the common factor that we need to consider is the power of particular examples of literature - e.g the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Koran, Das Kapital, Mein Kampf and so on? All have shown their power to profoundly influence people – to the point where they actually control the way their readers think and render them unable to think in ways that are inconsistent or contradictory to the ideas and words written in them.

A. MacAulay

Razorboy, I'm not sure what your question is, but let's take that the most obvious answer is probably the right one.

Pre-WWI Germany was a "Youth Bulge" society. The French sociologist, Gaston Bouthoul noted first that the streets of Germany were made unsafe by legions of violent youths in varying ideological uniforms, whereas France and Britain which had suffered through the war in a similar way managed strikes but not much else.

More importantly, the German middle-class, as the natural home of a liberal and democratic order, were pushed into ruin by the war, the reparations, the inflation and then the Wall St. Crash and the following Great Depression. It is unlikely that a band of criminal adventurers could have capered Europe's largest industrial economy without it being, also with their willing help, politically in chaos. Besides, Hitler's worldview was profoundly a Habsburg worldview; Counter-Reformation Catholic, Anti-Semitic and directed principally and aggresively Eastward against the Slavic world. (whatever that might be)

As Dr. Johnson said, "Never trust a man of one book". The profound influence of religious and philosophical works depends on their being either a broadening of the personal horizon or as part of a "closed system madness" with all the authoritarian horrors that always go with that.

Those learners by heart of the Koran are not in any normal sense literate, but are transmitters in an illiterate society of the Koran, without theology or thought. One step away, a short one, from an oral tradition.

A. MacAulay

Razorboy, I'm not sure what your question is, but let's take that the most obvious answer is probably the right one.

Pre-WWI Germany was a "Youth Bulge" society. The French sociologist, Gaston Bouthoul noted first that the streets of Germany were made unsafe by legions of violent youths in varying ideological uniforms, whereas France and Britain which had suffered through the war in a similar way managed strikes but not much else.

More importantly, the German middle-class, as the natural home of a liberal and democratic order, were pushed into ruin by the war, the reparations, the inflation and then the Wall St. Crash and the following Great Depression. It is unlikely that a band of criminal adventurers could have capered Europe's largest industrial economy without it being, also with their willing help, politically in chaos. Besides, Hitler's worldview was profoundly a Habsburg worldview; Counter-Reformation Catholic, Anti-Semitic and directed principally and aggresively Eastward against the Slavic world. (whatever that might be)

As Dr. Johnson said, "Never trust a man of one book". The profound influence of religious and philosophical works depends on their being either a broadening of the personal horizon or as part of a "closed system madness" with all the authoritarian horrors that always go with that.

Those learners by heart of the Koran are not in any normal sense literate, but are transmitters in an illiterate society of the Koran, without theology or thought. One step away, a short one, from an oral tradition.

A. MacAulay

Pre-WWI Germany was a "Youth Bulge" society. The French sociologist, Gaston Bouthoul noted first that the streets of Germany were made unsafe by legions of violent youths in varying ideological uniforms, whereas France and Britain which had suffered through the war in a similar way managed strikes but not much else.

More importantly, the German middle-class, as the natural home of a liberal and democratic order, were pushed into ruin by the war, the reparations, the inflation and then the Wall St. Razorboy, I'm not sure what your question is, but let's take that the most obvious answer is probably the right one.

Crash and the following Great Depression. It is unlikely that a band of criminal adventurers could have capered Europe's largest industrial economy without it being, also with their willing help, politically in chaos. Besides, Hitler's worldview was profoundly a Habsburg worldview; Counter-Reformation Catholic, Anti-Semitic and directed principally and aggresively Eastward against the Slavic world. (whatever that might be)

As Dr. Johnson said, "Never trust a man of one book". The profound influence of religious and philosophical works depends on their being either a broadening of the personal horizon or as part of a "closed system madness" with all the authoritarian horrors that always go with that.

Those learners by heart of the Koran are not in any normal sense literate, but are transmitters in an illiterate society of the Koran, without theology or thought. One step away, a short one, from an oral tradition.

Herbert Thornton

A.MacAulay -

Your references to "closed system madness" and your description of the learners of the Koran as being not in any normal sense literate are very apt.

Unfortunately the weight of evidence is that from the point of view of Islam, this crude & primitive form of "literacy" works - and worse still, the closed system madness also by some mechanism takes hold of the minds of people who are literate in our sense of the word - as is demonstrated by the fact that some terrorism is planned by people like Osama bin Laden and other terrorist acts are carried out or attempted by highly educated people - e.g. the attempt to bomb the Glasgow airport.

The really worrying question, for us, is - what, if we want our form of society to survive, do we need to do about it?

arctic_front

To not put too fine of a point on this subject.. and at risk of sounding xenophobic, here goes.

The Swiss had the right idea, namely that if an immigrant breaks the law, their entire family is deported. Sounds extreme, yes, but it kills two birds with one stone. The criminal(what country wants or needs them?) is removed from the country, and second, the threat of deportation for the remainder of the family is a large looming threat to play by the rules and to keep a close watch on their children. Over time, the prospect of losing everything they have worked for being taken from them due to a rowdy youth or other law-breaking act, will act as a deterrent.

Second thought, equally xenophobic, and far more extreme, just deport all of them and have the EU forbid them entry in to member nations at all. None. No visitors, no students and no businessmen. Exile them to live amongst their own kind until they learn to play nice. I'm not at all ashamed to think this way, as I would learn to despise any culture whose stated goal was to overpower, subjugate and oppress me. To see Islam as anything other than that is foolish.

Oh, as an added measure: Take their oil away from them and send them back to the sand dunes and camels.. they, as a culture is not advanced any higher than that anyway, only the petro-dollars have given them the wealth to become dangerous.

A. MacAulay

Nobody in the civilised world has a problem with foreigners. We are so happy to see them we will even carry their bags, provided they have enough money. What we don't need, in a post-industrial, post-modern society is to import a low income/skills, start-from-the bottom-class because the C19th is over. Unfortunately this is the century where much of what goes under the name of socialism derives it's guilt and atonement complex.

The supply of unskilled labour is limitless, the demand very limited.

A. MacAulay

Besides, our form of society will survive if we understand what makes it work, that it is secular, humanistic, liberal, democratic, plural, guarantees equality before the law, etc., etc., and understand that, even if these are ideals, that if we strive to fill them with life, then we can master any crisis.

Elkaren

Was it Baroness Warsi who was recently giving us a lecture about Islamophobia? Why wouldn't we fear this coming to Britain? Can it be really be true that Islam is being used like a club to beat women with. Surely Mohammed was reformer in his day and improved the lot of women within the limits of the climate in his day and looked towards the future and that Mullahs and Imams have chosen to pick at words rather than follow this example. The problem seems to me to be that there is failure here to understand Islam-that even when they can recite the whole of the Koran they have learned nothing because there can never be true belief where there is coercion and true belief can only exist where there is education and knowledge of the rest of the world-if you cannot make an educated choice of belief then you have made no choice, especially of belief. There is nothing spiritual about any of this, nothing that brings anyone nearer to the divine, it simply looks like a lust for cheap sexual excitement gained by punishing women.

chairman bill

@logdon
"Careful Rod or the Guardian will get you.

Here's what they slander Melanie Phillips with....."

Doesn't a charge of slander need the slandered to have a reputation worth something?