Is the reporting of Richard Goldstone's findings guilty of unconscious racism?

Yorkshireman

Hamas are Islamic extremists with a wider agenda...

Assyrian International News Agency

http://www.aina.org/news/20060102112931.htm

HAMAS Targets Spain

"This telling story comes at a time when Hamas, in English, states that its interest is "to liberate occupied Palestine." However, this story to liberate Spain, in Arabic, in a form that children can easily relate to, describes the Fatwa issued by Yusuf Qaradawi on December 2, 2002.

The Egyptian-born Yusuf Qaradawi, an al Azhar University-educated member of the Muslim Brotherhood, who resides in Qatar, is one of the most influential Sunni clerics. The Fatwa, which the children's story reiterates, follows the Muslim Brotherhood's teachings -which also serve as the basis of HAMAS' Charter.

Qaradawi, calls on Muslims to conquer Europe, saying: "Islam will return to Europe as a conqueror and a victor after being expelled from it twice -- once from the south, from Andalusia, and a second time, from the east, when it knocked several times on the doors of Athens." Qaradawi ruled that Muslims should re-conquer "'former Islamic colonies' in Andalus (Spain), southern Italy, Sicily, the Balkans and the Mediterranean islands.

and

"However, this ideology is clearly not limited to al Qaeda's terrorists. HAMAS' children magazine, Al Fateh's call to return Seville "to the hands of the Muslims" is no different than that of al-Qaeda's call to establish the Caliphate. Evidently, HAMAS' interests also extend to the liberation and Islamization of all occupied former Muslim territories, according to the dogma of the Muslim Brotherhood from which HAMAS originated."

Enjoy Spain while you can.......

Hugh

Rod, you might want to read the report before commenting on the reaction. It states that Israel's assault was "a deliberate disproportionate attack designed to punish, humiliate and terrorise a civilian population".

And the reason the media focus might be on Israel's responsibility is that according to Israeli human rights group, B’Tselem, the IDF killed 1387 people, 773 of them not taking part in hostilities, while Hamas killed 13 Israelis, ten of them soldiers and three civilians.

One of the reasons I've always found you worth reading is that you come down hard on those columnists who sling round accusations of 'racism' to silence opponents, so it's disappointing that your reaction here is to start making allegations of racism yourself.

Maggie

There are other mitigating factors as far as Hamas is concerned. Hamas supporters do not mount campaigns in the UK aimed at getting people sacked because of their opinions or hobbies. Hamas supporters do not exert pressure in order to suppress TUC debates about the suitability of the UK importing fruit and veg from the illegal occupied territories. Hamas supporters do not subject us daily to boring lectures and diatribes that amount to a chronic inability to see the motes in their own eyes.
And in the end its easier to sympathise with people who are killed and maimed in their thousands, have had their land, property and water stolen and are obliged to withstand the spite, malice and abuse doled out by Israel. In fact its the same spite, malice and abuse that those who disagree with the Israeli and/or Jewish point of view in this country also have to contend with.

Linda Smith

I always find that the use of the term "racism" muddies the waters.

Neither Israelis nor Jews are a "race". Jews come in assorted colours. You cannot convert to a "race", but you can convert to Judaism, or be adopted.

The issue is one of ideology as it always has been: Christianity versus Judaism; Islam versus Judaism (and all other non-Islamic belief).

Your headline should have read:
"Is the reporting of Richard Goldstone's findings guilty of unconscious antisemitism?"

Gábor Fränkl

YEs, Hugh, and the Goldstone report's claims are the Holy bible - only in this context can we evaluate your total cluelessness or shall we say outright embrace of the lies and intentional distortions in the "report". Just for your interest do I point out that the FOREIGN FUNDED [this alone highlights the actual reason for their tendenciousness] B'tSelem has been roundly debunked by the IDF's number by emphasizing that the NGOs number was clearly inflated by data gained from those paragons of justice and honesty as their fellow NGOs Al-Haq and others. Needless tosay, it's a toal fraud. And one more thing: they achieved their "highest civilian casuality" figures by including the hundreds of Hamas policemen and authority figures at the onset of the campaign!

Linda Smith

Mitigating factors? So daft Maggie supports Islamofascist Hamas and their genocidal Charter advocating extermination of worldwide Jewry. Does she also find "mitigating factors" for Hitler and his genocidal supporters?

Maggie

You illustrate my point perfectly, Linda. Thank you.

James Murphy

Well said Rod, what a worthy addition you are to the Specs's blog-world! I would've written yesterday to support you on the Global Warming Farce, but I was attacked by a fit of nihilistic despair half way through my purple paragraph and gave up. - As for Maggie-Ben Adhem ( 'may her tribe increase') if Israel responds (over)forcefully on the odd occasion, (a highly moot point) you might want to look at the inconvenient fact that the whole Arab world has been trying to, er, blow it up for 60 years, no?

Augustus

Those 'peaceful' protests, that Maggie herself may have attended, for the past 27 years,
are all about calling for the end of Israel, or in other words, calling for the genocide of the people of Israel. They parade with their signs dripping with antisemitic exhortations and libels, shouting death to Jews, while the media and the politicians passively look on. For the Goldstone Report see Melanie's blog. She's got him pegged.

Paul C

Is it just me or does anyone else think that taking a rantingly partisan view of what is essentially a bog standard two-bit real estate dispute between two fairly unsavoury parties a bit weird? A dispute, moreover, which has a rather modest body count by the standard of such things. Or do you, Maggie et al, get similarly worked up about Tibet/the Turkish-Kurdish conflict/Sudan/Chechnya/Sri Lanka? If so, can you please point me to any similarly strongly-worded postings you have made on such subjects?

Gábor Fränkl

Maggie, please do not blame others (like Linda here on this thread) if you are unable to credibly challenge her on the merits of her arguments on the subject matter against you.

David Ossitt

Linda Smith

"Your headline should have read:
"Is the reporting of Richard Goldstone's findings guilty of unconscious antisemitism?"

So you call Maggie daft.

Should we call you stupid Linda?

Your comment telling Rod that his headline should have read as "unconscious antisemitism?" is a nonsense because the arabs are as much semite as the jews.

Vern

So are you claiming that anti-semitism doesn't exist David? Or would you just rather people used the more specific term Jew-hatred? That might be more accurate from a semantic point of view, which would no doubt please you.

Paul C. raises an interesting point, which shall never be answered, of course.

Nicholas

I'm always surprised by Israel's forbearance. Surprised they haven't turned their "neighbours" countries into nuclear deserts by now. We've had 60 years of Arab/Islamic/Palestinian terrorism impacting the whole world with thousands of innocent people murdered. I'm surprised anyone from these countries is still allowed to fly or travel anywhere.

MaxSceptic

Paul C: Nice point!

"To the curious incident of the dog in the night-time"

Who is absent from all these 'orrible spats?

Karla

Maggie ('people who are killed and maimed in their thousands, have had their land, property and water stolen and are obliged to withstand the spite, malice and abuse doled out by Israel') this is absolute rubbish, and you know it. Was America stolen from the Indians and Australia stolen from Aborigines? What about Tibet, Eastern Poland and Easter Germany (following 2nd World War)? The fact is that people had to accept consequences of great conflagrations because the alternative would be perpetual war. There's no such acceptance in the Middle East, however and people (Palestinians and Israelis) must live with the consequences. And for the record, Palestinians are treated in Israel much, much better than in any other Arab countries. Do I hear cries of indignation at the treatment of Palestinian in Jordan, for instance, where their citizenship is being cancelled? Or perhaps you've been incensed at the treatment meted out to the Palestinians in Kuwait, who have been expelled?

ndm

Paul C asks:

-- Or do you, Maggie et al, get similarly worked up about Tibet/the Turkish-Kurdish conflict/Sudan/Chechnya/Sri Lanka? If so, can you please point me to any similarly strongly-worded postings you have made on such subjects?

He gets the wrong end of the stick because the real issue is why so many people who would never dream of supporting the Chinese treatment of Tibetans openly support the Israeli oppression of Palestinians. There are far too many public intellectuals who have abandoned morality in their decades-long support of this oppression and every malicious act Israel commits towards the Palestinians. We would rightly be shocked were any public intellectual to be as irresponsible with regard to the Chinese oppression of the Tibetan people.

David Ossitt

Vern

"So are you claiming that anti-semitism doesn't exist David? Or would you just rather people used the more specific term Jew-hatred? That might be more accurate from a semantic point of view, which would no doubt please you."

Vern the answer to you first question is no; unfortunately we will always have the evil of anti-semitism with us.

But that does not and should not excuse you from your bad manners in assuming or hinting that I am an anti; I am the exact opposite.

I was simply telling Linda Smith that her post was in fact inaccurate, as both jews and arabs are semites.

But then; we are all brothers under the skin.

Linda Smith

Maggie describes herself as one of "those who disagree with the Israeli and/or Jewish point of view".

Is Maggie aware that half the Jews in Israel are of Middle Eastern origin and that their families of origin suffered 1400 years of Islamic oppression as dhimmis following the Arab conquest of the middle East (as did the Christians). The Christians in Muslim countries are still suffering Islamic persecution - including those living under the Palestinian Authority. Most of the Jews have left.

"Until our departure from Yemen in 1949, it was forbidden for a Jew to write in Arabic, to possess arms, or to ride on a horse or camel. The Jews could only ride on donkeys, both legs on one side (side-saddle) and were obliged to jump to the ground when passing a Muslim, and had to make detours. Pedestrians went on the left of Muslims. It was forbidden for Jews to enter mosques, but the Muslims couldn't enter synagogues either. The Arabs forbade us to wear shoes, so that we hid them when, as children, we went searching for wood for cooking. When we were far enough away, we put on our shoes, on returning, we took them off and hid them in the branches. The Arabs frequently searched us, and if they found them, they punished us and forbade us to collect wood. We had to lower our head, accepting insults and humiliations. The Arabs called us 'stinking dogs.'

Jewish children who became orphaned before they were fifteen were forcibly converted to Islam....I had cousins who became orphans. One of my uncles escaped with them from the village. He hid them for five years. The Arabs searched for him everywhere. Finally they found him. The head of the village told him "If I didn't know you as well as I do, I would have killed you for what you have done..."

Bat Ye'Or's interviewee (1982) quoted above in her book "The Dhimmi" had been a citizen of Israel since 1949.

The Dhimmi by Bat Ye'Or, replete with supporting historical documentation, should be required reading for the Maggies and David Ossitts of this world - then they might start to understand that the Jews of Israel are fighting to maintain their hardwon freedom from Islamic totalitarianism, Koranic antisemitism/Jew hatred and dhimmitude.

Would Maggie, David Ossitt and their kin want to be dhimmis? I think not. Well, neither do the Jews of Israel. (And neither do the Christians in the Lebanon).

Paul C

That's a god-awful straw man, NDM. So far as I can infer, Maggie's unlettered and sinister (what's with the "and/or Jewish" bit?) assault on Israeli "apologists" is entirely derivitive on her chosen partisan stance in the conflict. She is unashamed supporter of Hamas and good for her for having the brass to say so. The point that I was making (not the one I somehow missed) is that the kind of folks who get worked up about Palestine just don't seem to have the same strength of feeling with respect to other conflicts: when the Tamils marched through London some weeks ago there was barely a white face to be seen. The SWP/Guardianista mob do not attend rallies for Sudan I find this curious - if their outrage at the sitaution in the Middle East is motivated solely by human sympathy for the Palestinians.

Ben

Nato has been killing thousands of civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan by reckless action. Russia has murdered thousands in Chechnia and Georgia without compunction. China, Sri Lanka, Syria, Hezbollah, Hamas, the PLO, Algeria, Sudan, Pakistan, Iran and many other states and organizations deliberately kill civilians all the time. Yet very few are charged by the UN or threatened with prosecution before the International Court of Justice at the Hague.

In any system of justice worthy of its name, no state or alliance should be above the law, all should be equal under the law, and the law should be administered independently and uniformly without fear or favor. The international legal system we have today is very far from meeting any of these criteria.

logdon

Back to the Thirties.

This time Jews have their rightful nation which will offer protection, yet even that is under constant fire from Muslims and their apologists.

We know from all the outpouring from the ME of the existential hatred within the region for Jews and their nation, but for people like Goldstone to add fuel to this fire is nothing short of disgrace.

Are they just waiting for another Holocaust?

Justin

No doubt the apologists for Hamas can accuse the report of bias due to the fact that Richard Goldstone is Jewish.

GaryO

There can never be a war without civilian deaths. Anybody who believes otherwise is a fool. Look at our actions in Iran and Afghanistan: at the height of these conflicts, more civilians were killed by "Nato" (read US) there in a single day than the total deaths of civilians during the entire Israeli operation in Gaza. Vietnam, Korea, both World Wars and every war that preceded these conflicts has resulted in civilian deaths. Regrettable, but unavoidable, and especially so in a densely populated area like Gaza.

What's more, Israel did everything in its power to avoid civilian deaths by dropping leaflets from air and announcing their imminent attacks in Arabic over the radio and by loudspeakers, and Hamas did everything in its power to put innocent civilians in harm's way and by hiding in schools, hospitals and mosques – thereby inviting IDF gunfire where it could cause most civilian deaths.

Hamas, in its charter (inspired by islamic texts, btw) declares its intentions of destroying Israel. Anybody who supports Hamas, willingly or not, also lends support to this promise.

Hamas wants to islamise Palestine. I wonder those liberal Western women who march in the streets of European capitals wearing their keffiyehs and T-shirts declaring they are Hamas or Hezbollah what it actually means for them?

Derek

Btw, Max Boot also blogging on 16th September in Commentary's equivalent of the CH, "Contentions", kicks off with "After reading the Goldstone Report on human-rights abuses committed during the Gaza War...". May be he's just a quick study compared with our home growns or do the Americans try harder... He goes on to give the United Nations a good kicking (http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/index.php/boot/96122#more-96122).

Stinking Arab

I don't think the issue is whether Hamas or IDF are less guilty, but that a legally established and internationally recognised entity such as the IDF can afford such negligence and lack of sympathy towards civilians. As a professional army they have the obligation of maintaining a high standard whether they like it or not and the leafletting is the least they can do to protect the civilians (and as far as I know it wasn't a factor in this war, it was, however, in 2006 when Israel bombed Lebanon).

I don't understand why a debate on the issue, it's silly to compare a terrorist organisation to a professional army, but people have to look past that and their personal hatred for everything of Arab/Muslim descent to find that something's wrong when there's such a lack of consideration towards civilian casualties by a an organisation that maintains they have the "most moral army in the world". Or am I being too idealistic to expect that people could not have stooped to such lowly depth of desensetisation?

P.S. And yes Arabs are guilty of mistreating the Jews for a long time and being unkind and violent towards them, but comparing their treatment to that of Christian Europe that ended up sending 6 million of them to death camps for me is mind-boggling and hypocritical, but I think I start to see the pattern.

patricia

Do you and the fellow bloggers here have to sign an unequivocal 'Support Israel at all Costs' charter before being allowed in?

Or do you just belong to the Goebels School of "Tell a Lie Often enough and it becomes the Truth" ?

Israel got the report it deserved.

End of Story.

Stop trying to revise history, because it was written in the blood of 1400 Palestinians, not in weasel words of the Spectator

Linda Smith

Patricia: How many of the "1400" were Hamas terrorists?

Linda Smith

Stinking Arab: extensive leafleting warning the civilians was certainly a factor in the Gaza conflict. I don't know why you are not aware of it as the Israeli Government spokesman Mark Regev repeatedly reported on British TV the efforts the Israeli government were making to protect civilians. Here is a link to the official website, managed by Israel's Ministry of Foreignm Affairs which provides factual information: http://www.mfa.gov.il/GazaFacts/About/Operation-Cast-Lead-against-Hamas.htm

I didn't understand your final comment about starting to see a pattern. But I certainly see a pattern or relationship between the Nazis and Islamic Jew hatred. I recommend you read up on the exploits of Hitler's ally, the Nazi Jerusalem Mufti, Al Husseini, Arafat's hero, who asked Hitler for the job of exterminating the Jews of the Middle East and was planning a death camp at Nablus. Al Husseini was also instrumental in the organisation and formation of many Muslim units and formations in the Waffen SS and Wehrmacht including the notorious Bosnian Muslim Handzar SS Division. 'The names of the divisions were meant to revive the Islamic historical traditions of the Bosnian Muslims as the rulers and masters (begs or aghas) of Bosnia-Hercegovina over the non-Muslim rayhah or untermenschen or mistmenschen, the subhumans, Orthodox Serb Christians, Jews and Roma. This was the meaning and symbolic significance of the names "handzar and "kama".'

http://www.serbianna.com/columns/savich/022.shtml

Stinking Arab

I only wanted to imply that it's hypocritical to focus on the treatment of Jews by Muslims and quietly missing out to mention the numerous pogroms, expulsions and acts of vandalism acrross a much more civilised and cultured Europe.

The rest, well, I don't feel too knowledgeable to comment on, but I can assure you that what applies to one group of Arabs doesn't necessarily apply to others, I personally hate the word "Arab" and would rather use demonyms (e.g. Iraqi, Lebanese, Egyptian).

Consider the fact that the Jewish Moroccan community, although dwindled is still fairly strong for an Arab country.

Regarding the treatment of Jews in Bosnia, you'll find that they mostly died by the hands of Croats in horrific numbers, the rest I agree with.

Linda Smith

Stinking Arab: "I personally hate the word "Arab" and would rather use demonyms (e.g. Iraqi, Lebanese, Egyptian)."

You seem to be confusing the concept of nationality with the concept of ideology. Nationality is irrelevant; the issue is religious belief. Islamic ideology asserts the supremacy of Islam and Muslims and demonizes Judaism and Jews (as does Nazism)..

"The rest, well, I don't feel too knowledgeable to comment on"

I recommend Bat Ye'or's book The Dhimmi: Jews and Christians under Islam. The Preface by Jacques Ellul is available online. Just google it. I also recommend Andrew Bostom's books and blog, all based on historical documentation and research.

Stinking Arab

Thanks for the recommendation but I think she's fairly biased considering her background and what she went through in her youth, when she had to flee Egypt for fear of persecution. In that sense I think she's uncompromising when it comes to comparing the treatment of Jews in Europe and in the Islamic world and I've read a lot of historians are accusing her of using fringe cases to support her theories and also using a lot of original research to come to these conclusions. I do belive, however that Europe's liberal and lenient stance on Islam is prone to be exploited by Islamists with imperialistic agendas as she argues, but I think she goes too far by suggesting that Europe is willing to give up its liberal values and freedom of speech to appease semi-developed north African states.

Anyway let's drop it, this discussion could go on and on, I only wanted to imply that there's bias even on the right, conservative side and I do beleive that there are a number of Musliims out there who don't fit into the stereotype, sadly it's always the insolent troublemakers that are given priority and not the law-obeying ones.

Linda Smith

Stinking Arab, "Thanks for the recommendation but I think she's fairly biased considering her background - I've read a lot of historians are accusing her of using fringe cases to support her theories and also using a lot of original research to come to these conclusions".

The treatment of Jews in the Islamic world is not a matter of "theory" but historical fact. Dhimmitude was/is dictated by Islamic theology/doctrine and was never restricted to "fringe cases". It is mainstream Islam. Its principles are enshrined in the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam to which the 57 member states of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference subscribe having repudiated the UN Declaration of Human Rights as transgressing Sharia.

Evidently you haven't read The Dhimmi, or you would know that a large proportion of the documents are official documents, Are the historians you read claiming that the 116 documents, pages 161-405, printed in The Dhimmi, are forgeries?

How bizarre to accuse Bat Ye'or of using original research! Do you not know that one has to use original research to earn a PhD!

Why do you assert that Bat Ye'or is biased but you and the historians you read are not? I'm not surprised you want to drop this conversation - to scream bias and run. Your "arguments" are full of holes.

The only sensible thing you say is "there are a number of Muslims out there who don't fit the stereotype". Obviously there are secular people of Muslim family background who reject the teachings of Islam but still identify themselves as Muslims, but perhaps you could explain to me how one can believe in the supremacist tenets of Islam but reject its central missionising imperative spelled out in the Koran. Of course insolent troublemaking is not necessary; achieving world domination can be achieved by demographics, the ballot box, and exploiting democracy.

Sergio

Stop criticizing Maggie, she is correct: "Hamas supporters do not mount campaigns in the UK aimed at getting people sacked because of their opinions or hobbies. Hamas supporters do not exert pressure in order to suppress TUC debates about the suitability of the UK importing fruit and veg from the illegal occupied territories. Hamas supporters do not subject us daily to boring lectures and diatribes that amount to a chronic inability to see the motes in their own eyes."
They don't do none of these things - Hamas supporters "only" put bombs in London's underground and buses, while their ideological relatives dance in Gazza' streets with every British citizen they murdered. Hamas supporters distribute candies in Gazza' streets to celebrate the massive murder of British citizens that their only crime was to go out to work. Frankly, I prefer Jews that do mount campaigns in the UK aimed at getting people sacked because of Maggie's opinions or hobbies. I do prefer Jews who do exert pressure in order to bring some decency and balance to TUC debates about the suitability of the UK importing fruit and veg from the illegal occupied territories. I do prefer Jews who subject us daily to lectures and diatribes that expose some hateful ideas as those expressed by Maggie. As far as I know, while they do all these things Maggie deplores, they don't murder scores of British civilians just because they want to.