Generally speaking, British voters haven’t taken to the Waffen SS

Vulture

This has all the hallmarx of an off the cuff Rodders rant, with little thought involved.

Have you researched the roots of the two parties you mention, Rod? Are you aware that the editor of the Jewish Chronicle, Stephen Pollard - who one would have thought to be a tad sensitive to any hint of anti-Semitism, - has denounced these Liebour smears as outright lies?

I should add that I'm not myself a Waffen SS veteran. Indeed, the only guy I know who is is that well-known leftie, Gunter Grass.

Incidentally, can you have a word with your ex-colleagues in the BBC pronunciation unit? Waffen SS does not rhyme with
Waffle.

Aequitas

A bit short-sighted on the face of it, especially inviting them to the conference. The simple facts are that the Conservatives under Cameron don't like the other federalist groups in the Parliament. Like the majority of people in this country they don't want to be dictated to by a bunch of corrupt overpaid bureaucrats on an extremely shaky mandate.
I do think its a bit over the top to start bandying your favourite word 'fascism' about. These countries have lived under communism for some time so perhaps have not had the chance to enlighten themselves as much as free democratic nations. Free democratic nations that, by the way, want to remain free and democratic.

Disorganised1

You're getting carried away since you changed your name to Seacole.

rod seacole liddle

Yes, vulture, I've researched the roots of both parties. And I do not accept Mr Pollard as a spokesman for the entire jewish people.

Liebour - good pun.

Dangerbird

The Conservatives are freezing the pay of public sector workers on over eighteen grand for a very good reason. Anyone with half a braincell should be able to figure out what that reason is.
Everytime we have a few years of that nice,caring and progressive Labour Party running the country somebody else has to come along and clear up the mess when the barking mad overspend has run its course.

Nicholas

Generally speaking British voters ARE stupid. Otherwise we would not have been enjoying the delights of an incompetent cod-communist government for so long.

Most occupied European countries provided men for the Waffen SS legions. Some were volunteers against Bolshevism, many were conscripts. The Latvians were no different but it is true they had particularly suffered under Stalin's regime. Some East European countries were actually allied to the Germans.

If Britain is going to embrace Europe and get down and dirty with its politics the historical baggage is going to have to be accepted - and treated in a mature way.

No one gets offended when Labour sing the Red Flag but the connotations of that length of string are too horrible to contemplate.

Jez

I've looked quite deeply into the phenomenon of NSDAP actions post September 1939.

This is because i'm a closet stiff.

Ok. The first this is that officially there were different types of 'SS'.

In the Aryan section these were called Freiwilligen or ‘free volunteers’, with the more non-Aryan (later on in the war) members of the ‘SS’ being called the ‘Waffen’ e.g. Armed / fighting SS.

Unfortunately, no matter how much apologists stress; they were nearly all involved in some pretty nasty events.

Even 5th SS Wiking was responsible for the murder of approximately 700 Jews in the opening phases of Barbarrossa.

The Baltic SS Divisions were raised from extreme Nationalist groups primarily and as time progressed, more so from idealistic anti-Communists later on *but* the damage had been done; these extreme Nationalist groups murdered many Jewish civilians in the summer of 1941 when the Red Army was expelled temporarily from these places. (There was a quite interesting and educational exhibition I visited whilst working in London last year at the Imperial War Museum. This was dedicated to the Holocaust. This exhibition focused on the above pogroms in detail).

As the war progressed the Baltic SS units fought on, the turnover regarding membership of these Divisions tipped from extreme racists to idealistic Nationalists (maybe)- as the realization became apparent that Stalin was set to re-occupy these places. These states had suffered very heavily under the Communist machine I the form of mass murders and deportations.

As the Red army re-occupied these Baltic states the SS units were given a choice;

Fight on with the Axis, via Vlasov’s KONR or disband.

Some went with the ‘Free Russians’ and some went underground to fight the Red army in sporadic Partisan actions for several years after the close of WW2.

The last anti Communist action by an active Baltic unit was recorded in 1964.

The Conservatives are out of their depth even approaching any organisation loosely connected to all of that I suspect!

They need to stick to shouting ‘Rhubarb’ at 2p in the pound tax increases in Westminster (or what ever they do these days!) as these are way out of their comfort zones maybe.

Simon Denis

Even if he doesn't speak for the entire Jewish people, the fact that a prominent Jewish journalist rejects this view of the parties in question remains suggestive. He may be mistaken, but it is unlikely. He may have some ulterior motive, but I have yet to hear of one. Moreover, I'm not sure that the "roots" of a party should in all cases be accepted as a decisive factor. Gianfranco Fini's party in Italy "descends" from Mussolini's fascists; do they march the streets of Rome in jackboots? The point is, what do they think, say and do today? You mention hostility to homosexuals. I wonder if it has become impermissible (in this "permissive" age) to observe that in Great Britain the goalposts on that particular subject have been moved sharply to the far left in a very short time and by a self regarding elite. It is a rough guess I fear, but I suggest that most of the British population take an old fashioned, grudginly tolerationist attitude to the pink minority. Do we really believe that most of them want to "celebrate" it, as our elites insist? And if, therefore, you talk blithely of "queer bashing", to what policies among Polish and Estonian conservatives do you refer? A refusal to drive the Church out of the adoption business, perhaps, because it refuses to recant a thousand years of belief? Think carefully, Mr Liddle. I suspect that you may simply be trying to convince us and yourself that you still have left wing things to say.

Carl

I wonder which member of the Shadow Cabinet will represent the Conservatives at the next Latvian Waffen SS remembrance parade?

zachary albion

Yawn.

This is sub-Labourlist Rod.

Do try harder - there is a target rich political environment out there & this drivel is frankly dull.

rod seacole liddle

Simon:

1) "The affirmation of homosexuality will lead to the downfall of civilisation"
2) Homosexuals should not be schoolteachers.

Both from the Polish Law and Justice Party. Now, if you think opposition to such statements is - what's the phrase? - political correctness gone mad, then so be it, give them your support. But I don't think Cameron agrees with either proposition (and the first is, in my opinion, hysterical lunacy)

Pollard? Ulterior motive? Maybe it's that he is a right wing conservative. That would do it, wouldn't it?

Nicholas

Jez, the distinction between the 'Waffen' SS was with the 'Algemeine' - or "general" SS. The Freiwillingen were also part of the Waffen SS who could be and were pretty nasty.

The decision to raise foreign units to serve in a "German crusade against Bolshevism' was made in 1941. Not all the foreign units raised were selected for service in the Waffen SS, for example Spaniards, Croats and French served with the Army which is where I think you may be getting confused.

At the time Bolshevism and Jews were being demonised as one and the same by the Nazis.

The 15th and 19th Waffen Grenadier Divisions der SS (Lettisches No 1) were raised in 1943 and 1944 from the Latvian security police (Schutzmanntruppen) and conscripts of the former 2nd Freiwilligen Infanterie Brigade 'Lettisches' - also SS.

The origin of this unit lies in a petition from the Latvian puppet government to re-establish the Latvian Army with a strength of 100,000 men. Although 15,000 Latvians originally signed up for service in a Latvian SS Legion to fight against the Russians, for various reasons by April 1943 only 2,478 had been inducted. Subsequently the brigade contained a large number of native and ethnic germans from other incorporated SS units.

Himmler then introduced compulsory military service for Latvians in the Waffen SS with age groups 1915-1924, broadening it in 1944 to age groups 1904-1914 and 1925-1926. It was this conscription which gives rise to the current commemorations in Latvia which have caused the Tories trouble.

DZ

This is really just 'Little Englander' wibble. Rod displays no idea at all of the events and feelings in Eastern Europe and the Baltic states during the period in question. He isn't alone. Most Brit journalists (and Brits) haven't a clue what is really going on anywhere outside their patch of the UK either now or in recent history. If I thought that Rod's real name was Lidelsky and that his parents and grandparents had walked for 1000 km in front of an invading army and pushed handcarts and wheel barrows loaded with their possessions from Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia or East Prussia to what became west Germany, and told him of the joys to be experienced when rolled over by armies of any political complexion, then I would pay attention to this type of article. But otherwise, it's just wibble.

Ray

Cameron wouldn't be the first Conservative prime minister to have to ally himself with (and sometimes say nice things about) east Europeans with otherwise dubious political beliefs.

After all, in order preserve this nation's freedom didn't Churchill himself have to cast a fraternal arm around the shoulder of a mass murderer called 'Uncle Joe' Stalin!

Simon Denis

Apropos Master Pollard - I call him "Master" because he looks like a very good, Victorian child - he describes himself as a social democrat, I understand. Again, perhaps he misunderstands himself. You may be right that really, actually, he is of a Spectatorish kidney; is it, then, your contention that the ulterior motive of being an unwitting right wing conservative makes people blind to fascism, "soft" on fascism or makes them fascists personally? Is there a difference, in your view? I ask, because these objections to gay liberation, whilst I do not share them (altogether) strike me as conservative and not as fascist.

Take teaching. The notion that an active, open, "proselytizing" homosexual should be allowed anywhere near a school has only recently been accepted in this country.

Even more recently, it has become something near to a criminal offence to urge that they should not. Now, is that not, in its way, a sort of fascism too? To criminalise a point of view which was, within recent memory, orthodox? And are not conservatives precisely called on to defend old orthodoxies? And to do so within the liberal constraints of non-violence established by their old whig antagonists? By calling them fascists and casting the shadow of criminality over their views, do you not excessively restrict debate?

The history of gay lib recalls the history of the church - you will be delighted to hear. In 313, the Roman Empire officially allowed Christianity. In 393 it banned paganism. Are we not moving in a similar direction today, passing through a meridian of perfect liberalism towards a renewed twilight of intolerance? It occurs to me that a blow for tolerance, therefore, would be to allow people to register their disapprobation of what they see as deviancy without suggesting that their secret wish is to slaughter or mutilate the "deviant" - as fascists, unlike conservatives, most certainly would wish to do.

Ross

"1) "The affirmation of homosexuality will lead to the downfall of civilisation"
2) Homosexuals should not be schoolteachers."

Yeah very bad, but on the other hand Labour have European allies who advocate the execution of homosexuals and no one seems upset about that.

EyeSee

Not sure that these are desirable bedfellows, but is it OK to also point out that our ruling party (or does that word suggest too much cohesion?) is stuffed full of Communists and Marxists? Is it OK to draw attention to the dictatorial and near communist EU, our real government and their anti-democratic stance? I just hope that Cameron really isn't trying to be the liar Blair reincarnate and actually does what Conservatives have always done; take a country wrecked by allowing a Labour government a run and put things back on track. Which is not to say that they are incapable of doing anything wrong (though it is true that New Labour have been incapable of doing anything right). The EU requires groupings, and that such strange people as Latvian fascists have been elected in their own coutries is a small indication that the peoples of Europe really do not want a united Europe. Don't forget, no country has decided to agree to this political union, only politicians. Which is unsurprising when you consider that, when given control of their own pension policies, MP's have ended up with by far the best scheme. And of course, we know what they get up to with expenses, so why wouldn't they be excrutiatingly keen on an organisation dedicated to secrecy and corruption?

John Patrick

It is indeed unfortunate that the Conservatives have joined this group. However, we should be wary of associating those who do not fully accept the homosexual agenda with fascism or Nazism. It is not self-evident that a homosexual life-style is something that should be actively encouraged however sorry we feel for individual homosexuals.

Jeremy Cohen

The Spectator's already got Martin Bright and Melanie Phillips churning out bitter and twisted propaganda on behalf of the same shitty little country. You can't complain about the rewriting of history in the UK if you are so willing to rewrite European history to suit someone else's warped purposes.

Nicholas

"You can't complain about the rewriting of history in the UK . . ."

Well, at least you have finally admitted it.

rod seacole liddle

Look, chaps; fair enough if you agree with the stated positions of the Poles on homosexuality. Exult! The Tories have done the right thing! My suggestion is that they wish they hadn't.

And Mr Pollard a social democrat? Yeah, and I'm a supporter of Hizb u--Tahrir.

cuffleyburgers

Besides Rod, I believe that Cameron hasn't aligned with them because of their views on gays, or because at some time two generations ago, their founders may or may not have done some ghastly things.

The point is they are anti-federasts, and since the dramatic loss of sovereignty to an unelected body is considered a major issue by a lot of their supporters they have made this change.

The dim and distant past of many of the parties in the EPP wouldn't stand up to scrutiny and as for communists in general; well i'd just say that morally that's certainly no better than thinking Hitler was a sound fellow.

I don't know why you of all people are recycling this crap, I normally admire your independent mindset.

And where's my previous post?

Dixon

Rod Seagoon Liddle: "the words “Waffen SS” have, historically, tended to have a negative impact upon the British voter. The man in the street associates the phrase – perhaps wrongly – with all manner of bother..."

A bit like another word "wrongly" laden with such associations then. People who harbour such associations..."wrongly" ...are slated as "Islamophobic". Maybe the problem is that the British voter and our SeaGoon here is merely...NAZIphobic!

Sir Graphus

The whole argument about Europe, though, is bizarrely arse about face:

All the pro-EU liberals (people and parties), who would ordinarily scream and jump about the tiniest infringement of civil liberties, seem not the least bit bothered that the new state of Europe they're all joining is not going to be a democracy, and that the people aren't going to be consulted about whether they wish it to be so.

Then, it is odd how only the fascists seem bothered that the new state of Europe should be a democracy. That's the crying shame of it.

Fergus Pickering

Which one of these thiings really bugs you, Rod? The SS stuff doesn't seem to have much traction. Respectable people on the left (not you, you are no leftie)have in my lifetime praised Mao the mass murderer, Pol Pot the mass murderer, Trotsky the mass murderer, Lenin the maas murderer and Stalin, the mass murderer. I think it's the anti-homo stuff that bothers you. I remember what you said about your mother's somewhat unreconstructed views. I've never had any negative feelings about gay persons. I think that, in the words of the Runaway Slave in his autobiography, a man can put his arse where he wants (and a woman too of course, it goes without saying). But I can live with your mother and with other people of similar views. Do they intend to embark on a programme of mass slaughter, or is this just a fireside opinion? In other words, are they queerbashers or just quiet nutters. The worldis full of quiet nutters, particularly the political world. Let it go, man. In politics you have to embrace people you wouldn't want your children to know.

Adrian Poodlefaker

The gay community are always flouncing about having hissy fits and taking exception to something or other. How on earth are we to distinguish one perceived insult from another? Its all highly amusing and I presume that was why Peter Mandelson gave Stonewall £300,000 of taxpayers money - to finance their comedy ooh-isn't-it-awful stunts.

workie 'vyshinsky' ticket

Generally speaking we havent taken to Stalinists much either but work with them every day of the week in their new 'EU Democrat' clothes with nary a peep from the metropolitan bien pensants that so enrich the national discourse.

As is traditional with such rants I shall now buy the right from them to have such opinions. (start) If there was such a thing as re-incarnation I would be more than happy to be reborn Jewish (finish)

Mr Grumpy

Stephen Pollard's claim was that the leader of the Polish party had been smeared as an anti-Semite and a Nazi when in fact he is neither. I thought he put up a reasonably good case. Do you know better? Or is your inner Seacole telling you that a right wing conservative is incapable of ever being right about anything?

Dixon

Jez, Nicholas, et al, arguing over the Angel quotiant of SS pin-heads...its all besides the point, SS, not SS, who recruited them or why, they did what they did and chose to do so rather tghan clear off to the woods as anyone who wasnt a blodd-curdlingly sick pathological bigot would.

The populations of Poland and its neighbours have a far "richer" history of such things than Austria and Germany. Were there ANY pogroms in Germany ( that is, other than under Hitler ) ?

Dixon

"Ross
October 7th, 2009 1:25pm
"1) "The affirmation of homosexuality will lead to the downfall of civilisation"
2) Homosexuals should not be schoolteachers."

Yeah very bad, but on the other hand Labour have European allies who advocate the execution of homosexuals and no one seems upset about that."

It might be argued that at least one Labour minister and a Labour life-peer belong to what is by far the biggest "party" to advocate the murder of homosexuals, stoning of adulterous wives, and a lot of similar things.

Dixon

"Jeremy Cohen
October 7th, 2009 1:40pm
The Spectator's already got Martin Bright and Melanie Phillips churning out bitter and twisted propaganda on behalf of the same shitty little country. You can't complain about the rewriting of history in the UK if you are so willing to rewrite European history to suit someone else's warped purposes."

How did this comment get passed by the auditor?

Lupus Lungfish

The European Conservative and Reformist group are the only turkeys that WILL be voting for Christmas. They are hugely outnumbered and putting the brakes on that gravy train won't be easy, they'll need all the help they can get.

rod seacole liddle

never mind how did it get past, what does it MEAN?

David

What's a proseletysing homosexual, and how come I've never seen one?

Harry Shaftoe

"How did this comment get passed by ze auditor?"

Send for the Waffen SS. They know how to deal with miscreants.

Simon Denis

I didn't know you were a member of Hizb ut Tahrir!

Lupus Lungfish

Jeremy Cohen- Yes I like to think I can talk gobbledygook utter shite with the best of'em, especially when I'v had a few. But I must have to concede that when I read your offering I was utterly baffled, I presume the 'shitty little country' is Israel but after that I'm lost.

David Ossitt

Nicholas

"No one gets offended when Labour sing the Red"

I do.

Dixon

"rod seacole liddle
October 7th, 2009 3:19pm
never mind how did it get past, what does it MEAN?"

Strikes me its a genuine ( rather than "by-association" ) anti-semite ranting about Mel and Martin speaking up for Israel, or as Mr "Cohen" ( pull the other one ) describes it: "...propaganda on behalf of the same shitty little country"

Dixon

"Harry Shaftoe
October 7th, 2009 4:02pm
"How did this comment get passed by ze auditor?"

Send for the Waffen SS. They know how to deal with miscreants."

Dont get me wrong, I reckon we want to see what illiterate gobbledegook comes out of the "mind" of people like "Cohen". But I am rather surprised that that one got through, given that I have ...it seems...been awarded a lifetime ban from commenting on Mels blog because of ( I assume ) my saying things too strongly in support of Israel.

I can only imagine the monitor couldnt fathom it out either.

Maybe the "crappy little country " was Lichtenstein. whose to say? Gobbledegook does invite paranoid projection, like ink-blots.

Jez

Dixon;

Get some herbal tea (or maybe a bong after reading your comments!) sit back and chill out pal.

You're like a bull in a china shop!

I was confronting my 'inner nerd' whilst joining this debate about the moral dilema of what is/was anti Communist and outright murderous behaviour in relation to fraternisation/collaboration with NSDAP Germany, 1938-45 (Civil War, Spain to Kessel Berlin).

That's all.

Again, chill yourself Dixon.

Bunnykins

Jeremy Cohen (sic). I'm rather confused. Is the 'shitty little country' to which you are referring England?

Jez

Hey Nicolas,

Out and about all over the North today, been able to pick snippets of the replies to the origional article though at varying times.

i thought the Spaniards (Blue?) and the French (Charlemagne?) were incorporated into the SS?

(you learn something new each day!)

The conscription in the Baltic states by Himmler i didn't know anything about either.

Back to reality though;

For all,

On the radio-news whilst tootling about today, i hear that the Tories are going to 'steam in', 'head on', fighting the UK inner city urban fracture by- er, increasing the price of 'alchopops'?

How about bringing back corporal punishment and something like national service?

Name and shame criminals?

How about severe & harsh deterants instead?

Absolute joke.

rod seacole liddle

Yes, Dixon, that was sort of my reading of it.

Jim H

My alcoholic German friend Manfred, said his family, from some little village near the Black Forest, rather liked the SS. They used to sit at home singing the old songs when he was a boy, which confused him, as at school he was told they were bad.
I suppose if you worked in admin the SS wasn't so bad, as they used to get extra food rations, taken from the Dutch I believe, many of whom seem to have starved somewhat due to lack of food. Though the low sugar diet doesn't seem to have harmed the Dutch elderly, looking at them today.
Shouldn't you be careful about being sued by former Waffen SS members under equality legislation? Surely we must accept diversity in beliefs amongst Europeans? Or is my moral compass spinning as much as Gordon's?

Charlie

During the period of 1939-1941 , tens of thousands of men in the Baltic nations were murdered by the Soviets. When the Germans invaded in 1941, many of the Baltic people turned on those from their own countries who had helped in the murder of their fellow citizens. Under the Molotov -Ribbentrop Pact, those Baltic peole who had German ancestry fled to Germany and the men were enrolled in the armed forces. This period is very complicated and unless one lived throught it, it is very difficult to understand.

rod seacole-liddle

Jim - lovely post, sir. I await the libel writ, yes.

Baron One

"The affirmation of homosexuality will lead to the downfall of civilisation"

Well, if we all got down (or is it back) to it we would surely perish as a species. Right?

I wonder, too whether anyone from the esteemed contributors could enlightened me on why, why, why we permit the display of the red star and other trinkets of the communist Gulag, but get more than shirty when it comes to anything that speaks with the old German accent. Uncle Joe killed more people, his own and others, than Adolf. For my money, both were monstrosities, and both should be seen as such.

A. MacAulay

A former Luftwaffe soldier, now deceased, described to me that when the German army occupied Riga, Latvian lynch-mobs armed with iron bars roamed the streets beating to death any and every Russian they could lay their hands on.

Simon Stephenson

This column* by Ben Macintyre is quite good additional reading about the Latvian aspect of Rod's blog.

* http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/columnists/ben_macintyre/article6865230.ece#

Mostel Aria

I hadn't realised that the homosexual lobby claimed a veto over Conservative foreign policy. When did that happen? Does every foreign policy have to be gay-proofed now? And where does that leave us when dealing with, say, Ole Leatherface Ghaddafi?

Dixon

...anyways, any fraternising with alleged gay-bashers at the conference has surely been cancelled tenfold by that incredibly uh, GAY blue-sky projection. I especially liked the fact that the conference "blue sky" ( oh, how visionary ) had corners in it!

A sky with corners in it. And they want us to believe they arent still "square" at heart!

A. MacAulay

With all this talk of Nobel Prizes, I hope the work of Herta Müller, the literature laureate will find readers in the English speaking world so that, at the very least, our being spared fathers in the SS and living under really nasty dictators will deepen our awareness and make us a little more thankful.

Wilhelm

Rod liddle

I award you the Iron Cross first class for bringing up that tired old cliche, the war.

Congratulations, kid.

logdon

"Jez
October 7th, 2009 10:35am

Ok. The first this is that officially there were different types of 'SS'.

In the Aryan section these were called Freiwilligen"

Were they blonde, blue eyed whales?