Muslim savages update

Wilhelm

'' Somalis have come to Britain as immigrants, where they are widely admired for their strong work ethic, respect for the law and keen, piercing, intelligence.''

HUH ? You gotta be kidding ?

Jez.

Coming to a Sharia district near us all soon.

Verity

" ...where they are widely admired for their strong work ethic, respect for the law and keen, piercing, intelligence."

And their organisational abilities. They have set up a parallel legal and justice system in London with their network of Muslim "gars" and dispense justice the really old fashioned way, the Stone Age way.

Julie Woods

When I read about this sort of thing I feel like I am reading about a parallel universe, perhaps looking way back into the distant past (like, 2000 years or more ago), perhaps reading about a different species, a little like ours, but definitely not humans as we know them...

Wilhelm

'' Somalians where they are widely admired for their strong work ethic,''

Well I suppose the British pirate industry needs a boost since the days of Blackbeard, its been all downhill.

Hawkeye

"Somalis have come to Britain as immigrants, where they are widely admired for their strong work ethic, respect for the law and keen, piercing, intelligence."

These are presumably the smart ones who are likely to be most in danger from the mullahs and other non-thinking religious types

James Seacole Delingpole

You're so JUDGEMENTAL, Rod. Why can't you learn to celebrate the world's cultural diversity?

Julie Woods

"You're so JUDGEMENTAL, Rod. Why can't you learn to celebrate the world's cultural diversity?"

Haha! Very good!

hiro

"When I read about this sort of thing I feel like I am reading about a parallel universe, perhaps looking way back into the distant past (like, 2000 years or more ago), perhaps reading about a different species, a little like ours, but definitely not humans as we know them..."

What a strange way of looking at it.

rod seacole liddle

Embrace my inner seacole, you mean?

They are such vile, stone age, people.

And coming to a "community" near you, very soon (or indeed have already done so in your case, James)

Bill

Wilhelm.
"Incidentally, many Somalis have come to Britain as immigrants recently, where they are widely admired for their strong work ethic, respect for the law and keen, piercing, intelligence."

It's called irony.

Not for Prophet

Hawkeye - Look 'irony' up in the dictionary.

Ray

I'm sure not all Somalis are thugs, rogues and stone-tossers, although because they don't integrate particular well into British society sadly most of the stereotypes of them doing the rounds are difficult to counter.

Therefore, in the interests of balance, it would be beneficial to hear what decent Somalis think of this kind of barbarity. Cue Rageh Omar...

Ray

PS - I was riding across Birmingham on the top deck of a bus the other day when it actually stopped outside a day centre in Winson Green called 'Mary Seacole House'!

Jez

Wilhelm;

He's being sarcastic?

Wilhelm

Bill me old son

I did have my suspicions when Rod used the odd phrase '' piercing inteligence,''

But you see Bill, Mr Liddle in his youth was a marxist and he believed in all that brotherhood of man garbage, so you just cant be too careful, can you ?

hiro

Always struck me as slightly irrational to judge a whole people by the act of a few within that people. Like judging all irish people as bombing savages. Load of old bollocks.

Doesn't detract from the fiendishness of those in the wrong though.

Andy Rodwalloper Carpark

Lawks a mercy, all these ironists crawling out of the woodwork.

Ironists? Onanists, more like.

Chris

Hiro, please demonstrate where Seacole judges all Muslims in his comments.

rod seacole liddle

Hiro, I usually agree with you. But the unemployment rates among Somalis in this country is 87 per cent; one in three who have been here for more than a year have criminal convictions. I refer you to anecdotal evidence and, if that's not good enough, Richard Lynne for my third observation.

old fogey

Ayaan Hirsi Ali has all the qualities that Rod ascribes to Somalis. In addition she is a
great beauty. But then she has also renounced Islam and tries to warn our oistrich like politicians about Islam.

Vulture

Does anyone remember that Monty Python sketch abt stoning ( the one where they sold a range of stones ranging from rocks to packets of gravel). My, how we all laughed.

Not quite so funny now.

But the thing is, Rodders, it was your Liebour party friends who opened the floodgates to the Somali tide.

BtW: Don't anyone dare tell General Zod abt this : he thinks that millions of Muslim savages living amongst us is just fine and dandy....and...y'know...diverse....and ..simply divine.

London Calling

You don’t have to look far to be reminded of savagery. On Monday in West London
British Born Geeta Aulakh had her right hand chopped off and her head scalped by her estranged Indian husband and five other men after leaving work and was then dumped on the pavement outside her childminders house. Apparently it was a honour attack.

This is England…

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8368710.stm

Up Seacole Creek

So, Mr Neather, what have we done?

Have we let in a host of rapidly breeding savages or vibrant fellow-citizens of planet earth?

Well knock me down with a feather, Mr Neather, I think I know the answer already.

Verity

Old Fogey - Aayan Hirsi Ali is indeed beauty, and an achiever, but let us not forget,she was not brought up in the hell hole of Somalia among the Stone Agers. Her parents emigrated to Kenya when she was a little girl and she was brought up on British values and with a British education (of the day).

Jim

Careful Rod, at this rate you'll end up on a state witchcraft charge of 'waycism', the ultimate crime in today's enriched Britain

Verity

I'd like to point out that these are the desert tendency Islamics.

By all accounts, including people who lived there before the mad mullah got their skirts in the door, Iran is a totally different kettle of fish. Whereas in the rest of Dar es Salaam, it is against the law to depict their somewhat over-prescriptive prophet (what did he ever prophesy, btw?), in Iran not only is it OK, but they sell paintings and drawings of Mo in shops and street markets.

It's also a point that when Iranians manage to get out, they excel as students, are energetic business achievers and are fun at a party.

Archie

And they wonder why the BNP are gaining ground massively!

terence patrick hewett

In only 50 short years,the liberal consensus have managed to drag us into a state of such appalling barbarism that only radical measures will cure.

Baron Pipin II

hiro @ 3.49:

would it surprise you to know that not all Germans were deranged Nazis by any stretch of the imagination, yet Adolf unquestionably succeeded in putting together a mighty fighting force that nearly conquered the world, and in the process of failing killed 60mn?

Gene Poole

Is the influx of Somalis going to send our traditional Welsh pirates the way of the red squirrel?

Baron Pipin II

Verity @ 5.26: thanks, I was abit anxious before, but having learnt that in Iran one can publicly display the paintings of the prophet has reassured me. Nothing to worry about then. Inshallah, I shall sleep soundly tonight.

Mr Ocelot

In Simon Schama's History of Somalia - he gives a really balanced and fair-minded, and at times moving picture of a hard-working and inventive people, warlike and proud, loving and kind - in short full of strength and courage.
Whereas our history is peopled by cynical and bigoted half-wits, lazy and greedy but cheerful in their own small-minded way, blundering on somehow, living on ill gotten gains, a free supply of coal, and a brutal bullying navy. And though in the end we weren't nazi nihilists, we weren't that much better really.
I learnt a lot.

Pricky Gayes

Rod, you've just gone and alienated your thousands upon thousands of Somali fans.

Beer Moth

Yes, irony and sarcasm rule in these parts and I am one of the offenders. But none of that has any room here. What Rod says here, needs to be said and should have been said years ago. And I will stand aside him, to defend this against any.

Beer Moth

Mr Ocelot

No my friend, you didn't learn much at all

Fergus Pickering

Mr Ocelot if the Somalis in Somalia are as you say, where did the criminals over here come from?

Nicholas

Mr Ocelot, would that be the same "brutal bullying navy" that put an end to the slave trade and eradicated piracy in the Middle and Far Easts?

Schama is a notoriously left wing historian. You don't think he might be a wee bit . . er . . biased - like you?

Alexandrovich

Mr. Ocelot: suggest you turn down the nuance control. Seems a few on here don't do irony.

Dixon

Just a few minutes ago I was perusing jihadwatch.com and getting more and more pessimistic, what with the UN sponsored plans to forbid criticism of Islam, the US govt refusing to call a jihadist a jihadist in the Fort Hood nutter case ( yes, being a nutter and a jihadist are entirely compatible conditions ). I fell to gloomily thinking "when will there be someone, a politician...no, a leader, who will stand up and speak truth to Politically Correct bigotry? When, oh, when, oh when...

Then I came here and read this! At first I thought..its a joke, someone has hijacked my PC ( happens occasionally )...but wait, it REALLY IS ROD LIDDLE REALLY DARING TO SAY "MUSLIM SAVAGES" AND IT REALLY IS ON THE SPECCIE>>>AND SO FAR IT HASNT BEEN REMOVED!

FAN bloody tastic...YOU ARE THE MAN man! Hear me THE MAN!

Rod is our messiah!!!!!!!!

KEEP IT UP.

PS, stoning is the least of it, what about the genital mutilation of girls in that part of the world and on over a hundred million victims worldwide?

Dixon

"hiro
November 19th, 2009 3:49pm
Always struck me as slightly irrational to judge a whole people by the act of a few within that people. Like judging all irish people as bombing savages. Load of old bollocks."

You mean dont judge all NAZIs by the standards of Hitler. What about that nice MR Speer, the "good NAZI".

Dixon

"rod seacole liddle
November 19th, 2009 4:16pm
Hiro, I usually agree with you. But the unemployment rates among Somalis in this country is 87 per cent; one in three who have been here for more than a year have criminal convictions. I refer you to anecdotal evidence and, if that's not good enough, Richard Lynne for my third observation."

Yes and I understand they also chew cats!!!!

No, but seriously, my local UPS office has to have an enormous poster on the weighing scales telling Somalis they arent allowed to send khat home through the post!

Im not making that up, either. I Ronny, or no I Ronny.

Dixon

"old fogey
November 19th, 2009 4:17pm
Ayaan Hirsi Ali has all the qualities that Rod ascribes to Somalis. In addition she is a
great beauty."

Sadly, she says that she also was a victim of genital mutilation. She deserves great respect. But the media, when it mentions her at all, just dumps on her.

Lupus Lungfish

What the hell happened to our border control?

Peter from Maidstone

Rod, since you don't have a problem dealing with issues like this, and Melanie doesn't seem to have an issue dealing with issues like this, can you tell us - if you know - why Fraser Nelson seems to have an issue dealing with issues like this?

CriesFreedom

In addition to female genital mutilation and the stoning of women, what about the business of hanging young gay men from cranes in the squares of Tehran? Why is the Left silent on things like this?

rod seacole liddle

Well, Fraser's the editor of this site so I assume he doesn't have a problem, either, or it wouldn't be here.

CriesFreedom - credit where it's due, Peter Tatchell has been banging about this for years.

rod seacole LGBT liddle

....although having said that, if you read Peter's column today you may well end up thinking he's a little confused by the issue. http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2009/nov/19/islam-religion

Also, much as I would like to join his rally, I might be put in the invidious position of wishing to stone to death some the speakers.......

Peter from Maidstone

The trouble with Tatchell et al is that they confuse the freedom to criticise their lifestyle choice with the Marxist category of hate-crime. Thus they are left on the left without a leg to stand on when they want to criticise the beliefs and actions of Muslims.

A secular state should allow the criticism of homosexuality, and Christianity and Islam. Unfortunately Tatchell has painted himself into a corner where he wants to prevent any criticism of homosexuality, wants to be free to criticise Christianity and is just too right on to know whether Islam should be criticised or not.

hiro

^"lifestyle choice"

Oh dear.

EyeSee

We should build a housing estate exclusively for New Labour types and Somali's. It would be an interesting experiment in multiculturism.

Baron Pipin II

Dixon @ 2.56:

are you calm now? had a cold shower? right, now explain slowly, avoiding capital letters, what do you reckon the outcome will be? can we all go home, the problem’s solved, or what?

Lupus, my friend Lungfish @ 6.49, what a silly question, if I may say. Whoever heard of border controls between counties in a polity run by the Neather Club.

rod seacole liddle

In fairness to Tatchell, he has frequently stood up for people who criticise homosexuality, citing freedom of speech (very different to the PC bores at Stonewall).

But there is a non-sequitur in his argument. Like it or not, he is anti-Islamic. I don't see why he can't admit such a thing.

Austin Barry

Rod's use of the phrase 'Muslim Savages' is as invigorating as a walk in the Hebrides.

I do hope therefore that in due course we will not see him kneeling in an orange jumpsuit surrounded by a tooled-up Team Jihad.

Unhappily, our Islamist chums have no sense of irony or humour. Even Islam's one stellar entertainer Yousuf has had to revise his sixties hit to "I love my dog - even though he is not halal - as much as I love you."

patricia

Yikes!

A little like the Zionist svages murdering and maiming thousands of Palestinian civilians in the world's most 'ethically' fought invasion of all time.

hiro

"We should build a housing estate exclusively for New Labour types and Somali's. It would be an interesting experiment in multiculturism."

Most "left-wingers" that I know wouldn't give a toss about living next door to people from a different land. It's only the fear-and-loathing mob that dry-wretch and start howling at the idea of living next door to a Somali, or an African, or a whatever.

Moraymint

Yes, knowing with impotence that this sort of thing is casually going on in the world can drive one to despair.

The term medieval savages comes to mind, but what exactly are we supposed to do? Embrace multiculturalism, I guess.

rod seacole liddle

Patricia - do you wish me to mention Israel in every single thing I write? CD reviews, restaurant features, etc?

Dixon

"Baron Pipin II
November 20th, 2009 12:02pm
Dixon @ 2.56:

are you calm now? had a cold shower? right, now explain slowly, avoiding capital letters, what do you reckon the outcome will be? can we all go home, the problem’s solved, or what?"

The outcome...of people in the media ( eg Rod ) start talking freely like he has here...would be that the rest of us could do so also.

I dont know your circumstances, perhaps being a a Baron you can say what you like anyway, but its damn certain that I havent had the freedom to say "Muslim savages" for many years.

Keith

Please forgive me for missing something obvious but I cannot help fearing people who would stone a 20 year old girl to death nor can I avoid loathing this behaviour.Do I want to see it my beloved country? No thanks

Verity

Hiro writes: "Most "left-wingers" that I know wouldn't give a toss about living next door to people from a different land."

You know left wingers?

Fritigern

For some unfathomable reason there are even Somalis in Finland. I recently read that they make up about 1/2% of the population but are responsible for 12% of the crime.

Jez. Blaa'd fud

Keith.

It's already here pal.

Verity

Fritigern - What on earth are Somalis doing in Finland? I mean, what do they bring to the country, other than a primitive belief system and a culture of lawlessness? The same, I suppose, as they bring to Britain.

Moray Mint, you write: "The term medieval savages comes to mind."

With respect, this belief system is not medieval. It is ancient and has been the culture of the desert for hundreds of years. It got codified into a "religion" in the Eight Century, but the beliefs had been going for eons before that. Then, they were in the service of worship of the moon (not a lot to see in the desert at night, so I can understand how one could get fixated on gazing up at the moon for hours, night after night, and imagining it had mystical powers).

Muslim garb is the garb of the desert, as I have noted 190,000 times, designed for keeping sand out of eyes, ears, mouths and noses. It has absolutely nothing to do with any diety. It is simply a practical folk custom.

You were right, though, Moray Mint. The word "primitive" is apt.

Baron Pipin II

Dixon @ 2.26:

apology my friend, nature made me a trenchant bastard you know, I do appreciate it that we are both peddling towards the same aim. My cynicism comes partly from the hopefully mistaken belief that however much we or others talk the talking nobody bloody listens.

Harry Calder

Peter Tatchell is consistent and principled, and certainly earns my respect. The reason he doesn’t declare himself to be “anti-Islamic” is quite simple: there are a great many people who may be described as “cultural Muslims” – i.e. they identify with Islamic culture without necessarily following to the letter the principles laid out in Islamic scriptures. (In the same way, there are many “cultural Christians” – i.e. people who identify with Christian culture without necessarily taking seriously every single verse of the Bible.) Such “cultural Muslims” are potentially valuable allies, and it would be foolish to alienate them. Mr Liddle’s confrontational stance may please his legions of fans, but I’d suggest that Mr Tatchell’s more circumspect approach is more likely to yield results.

Verity

I, too, respect Peter Tatchell. He is a measured and brave individual.

rod seacole liddle

Harry - I sort of agree with you, up to a point. And I have a lot of respect for Tatchell. But you cannot get away from Islam's stance on a whole range of issues; Peter thinks its all massageable into nothing. It isn't.

In2minds

What we're missing. Remember Clive Davis? Well over on his wonderful new blog he has written -
In the lower depths,
The headline reads, “Muslim savages update”. I thought Rod Liddle had already hit rock-bottom but it turns out that he’s still digging.

Anne Wotana Kaye

I think fanatical islamists are vile, and do not represent a religion, but are barbaric, perverted monsters who have no place in the world. The way they treat women alone, is a measure of their evil. But, I believe that most of the people who come here from Somalia are escaping the very thing which make fundamental islam such a foul 'religion'. I do not believe they come here to continue what they are escaping from. Of course, there will alwats be a few bad apples in any barrel, but I think the fact that they used every method to get here, shows they are bright and have initiative. Alas, brightness and initiative are the very qualities white, working class boys appear to lack. It has been remarked on that something is wrong with the education of poor native-born white population. No, it is not that they have been neglected whilst the immigrants got the extra coaching, etc. The reason I believe is that their benefits dependent mothers have no interest in educstion and very little indeed for their unfortunate offspring. Immigrants represent the most daring, the most willing to take risks and strike out on their own, so while many will succeed others will take to crime, often sophisticated high-tech crime, seeing that it can be the way to riches. This may sound cynical, but it is a fact of life.

EyeSee

Hiro, are you sure they are left-wingers? I mean the real kind, Tony Blair, Harriet Harman -you know people who tell others to do what they wouldn't dream of foisting on themselves. Then of course, I don't associate with them, I just hear too much from them. And see large numbers of Somali's all around. In the main, in rented houses. 'Driving' to get from a to b without worrying too much about any rules that might apply to their journey. And the spitting certainly enriches our culture. (Or even creates 'cultures').

Seacole

Calder - I doubt there will be any results using circumspection: tiptoeing around the finer sensibilities of the hairy Islamists has brought us to this pretty pass.

We will be sharia-compliant before we know it, by which time it will be too late to reverse the situation.

btw Rod, your colleague has come up with the mind-boggling assertion that Sharia is an attack on Islam. This will have them rolling with laughter in the mosques from Samarkand to Timbuctoo.

EC Knut

Henceforth be known as ....

Rod sea change Liddle

Well done, keep it up!

robbo

I agree with Harry Calder. By turning a blind eye to the comparatively minor incident of judicial murder of an innocent woman, we might win concessions later, on major issues such as the renaming of teddy bears

A House By the Seacole

Verity asks about Hiro knowing left-wingers. My name is not Hiro but what the hey, I'll tell about the left-wingers I knew.

Boyfriend's brother and his wife, Canadian liberation-theologists: her grandpa smuggled bibles into the Ukraine under Communism, but his granddaughter obviously learned nothing about the value of freedom from his example (even though he lived with her). Brother was raised in well-off middle-class family and went to private school: father started off digging holes for telephone poles and rose to upper management (sales): son obviously learned nothing about how capitalism lifts people up and helps them achieve their goals. Or dreams, if you prefer.

When I knew him, the brother had left his religious studies and was working as a fireman; he was something of a pyromaniac, enjoyed flicking a lighter near your face for no particular reason. But it makes sense, doesn't it? This sort of person wants to see the world burn. In the first Gulf War, all that he and his wife could do was blame Bush Sr (never a bad word for Saddam, of course); and last I heard, they were members of ANSWER. I think it's just as well I never married his brother!

chrisH

Hadnt thought of our returning to the Stone age to be so literal.
Well done Rod!

Linda Smith

For those who ask “What on earth are Somalis doing in Finland?”, here is a possible explanation:

“According to Sharia law, Muslims are not permitted to voluntarily reside in non-Muslim nations, such as America, except under certain circumstances. One of these is if the Muslim is actively engaged in da'wa, that is, proselytizing; another is if he fights in the path of Allah, jihad. Both serve the same purpose: empowering Islam by numbers and territory, respectively. Merely living in infidel territory out of choice, however, because it offers a "better life," is forbidden. (To get an idea of how serious a matter it is for Muslims to reside in non-Muslims nations, see some online fatwas.)”

http://www.meforum.org/2512/nidal-hasan-fort-hood-muslim-doctrine

Wilhelm

As for Clive Davis, He seems to be more upset about Rod than a woman getting stoned to death.

There is none so blind as those who WILL not see, is there ?

Seacole

We are peace loving people and a few extremists can’t defame the whole religion.

http://tinyurl.com/ye3lcj6

Verity

Dixon - I enjoy your posts, but unless she made a recent announcement, Hirsi Ali has always refused to comment on the state of her genitals. And quite right too. We don’t know that she was mutilated.

In2minds

More on Female Genital Mutilation. A friend of mine, a retired teacher, has made a special study of this subject. She writes -

“Most Somali women living in the UK have undergone Female Genital Mutilation. It is estimated that 6,500 girls in the UK are at risk of FGM annually yet the government will release no figures. Since the first Act outlawing FGM in 1985 there have been NO prosecutions. At present this crime is classified as 'Poisoning or FGM' and prior to April 2008 as 'Less serious wounding.' This government bans smacking of children but seems oblivious to the mutilation of small girls actually stating that:'It is their custom and they mean no harm.' Hence we are complicit in mediaeval practices that have been outlawed in some African countries several of which have even convicted and imprisoned some offenders”.

I can vouch for the fact it has taken her many hours of work to get little information. Our police forces and government are masters at side-stepping questions, the Freedom of Information Act is weak to the point of useless.

Harry Calder

First of all, Rod, thank you for your reply: I really do appreciate it. And yes, I do agree with you that Islam's whole stance on a whole range of issues is vile, and that one can't get away from that. I do, however, happen to know a few people who would call themselves Muslim (because they were born into Muslim families - but who nonetheless come out drinking with me) who would also agree that the stance is vile. Problem is, no-one wants to turn against their own identity. These people are wary of joining movements opposed to militant Islam for fear of rubbing shoulders with those who hate them for being what they are - i.e. for being born into Muslim families. I do feel it is important to provide a space for these people where they can oppose the horrors of Islamism without having to lose face by denying their identity.

Robbo: it is not a question of turning a blind eye to the stoning. I never even implied that we should do that. It is a question of how best to form the broadest possible front to oppose these horrors.

rod liddle

I assume the chap who posted here WAS Clive Davis, a man of whom I had never heard until this afternoon. I wouldn't waste too much time at his site as nobody else seems to be there (4 comments for his entire output) and the gist of his argument re this issue is summed up admirably by himself, or his mum, under the name in2minds here.

Dixon

"Verity
November 20th, 2009 10:37pm
Dixon - I enjoy your posts, but unless she made a recent announcement, Hirsi Ali has always refused to comment on the state of her genitals. And quite right too. We don’t know that she was mutilated."

I may then have been disinformed, mislead by one of the US sites I read. I cannot remember which.

Roy

We will continue to hear these atrocities while our beloved leaders allow them free access to British cities to live along side you and me. Not only that but are given a living with all welfare benefits+! It will take more of the same until the people wake up at knife point to say enough is enough.

Counter Seacole Jihad

CounterJihad

1. To resist further Islamization of Western countries by eliminating Muslim immigration, refusing any special accommodations for Islam in our public spaces and institutions, and forbidding intrusive public displays of Islamic practices.

2. To contain Islam within the borders of existing Muslim-majority nations, deporting all Muslim criminals and those who are unable or unwilling to assimilate completely into the cultures of their adopted countries.

3. To end all foreign aid and other forms of subsidy to the economies of Muslim nations.

4. To develop a grassroots network that will replace the existing political class in our countries and eliminate the reigning multicultural ideology, which enables Islamization and will cause the destruction of Western Civilization if left in place.

robbo

Clive Davis: that man is hilarious. I used to feel a bit sorry for him when his blog-comments at The Spectator always hovered around the zero-mark, but now he's purposefully looking the other way when this kind of brutality breaks out - and even boasting about it - I've revised my opinion

GeoffM

Steady on old chap - you could get into a lot of trouble for this one.

The finest minds in the land support Islam and are convinced it is a religion of peace and force for good in the world.

People like Gordon Brown and the Labour Party, Dr Williams, Brian Paddick, all Guardian readers and contributors, the BBC and, er, muslims.

Hey, even the Tories are embracing Islam as we approach the General Election.

So you must be wrong.

Islam has made our country into a wonderful place - can you imagine how awful it would be if it were just made up of boring white Christian natives? Nothing ever happened before mass immigration and multiculturalism. We had been in a Dark Age since the Romans departed.

No science, medicine, laws, democracy, rights.

Now we are happy, safe and civilised.

A Golden Age is upon us.

The rest of you are all racists and knuckle dragging common British people who should, will, be eradicated in time.

YA

"patricia" - you understand that by posting your anti-Semitic nonsense you did great promotion to both the cause of de-Islamization of the West, and to the cause of Israel, do you?

First, you admit that the criminality of these MSavages' practices is undeniable. So you switch subject.

And then you remind that Israelis do the right thing by resisting them.

Thanks.

What might be better illustration that robust self-defence against Islaimsm is legitimate and necessary, - not only in Somali, but in Gaza, AfPak, Lebanon, Iraq, London, Finland, - everywhere.

Oh and BTW Somali Shababs who did the stoning recently made anti-Israeli threats (looking for sponsorship, obviously).

Everybody who can comprehend that A is followed by B, can make a conclusion.

..you're o precious exhibit "patricia", an effigy of Islamist. Please write more, it's so enjoyable.

In2minds

Dear Mr Wrong Puddle,

Following your comments @ 12.57am I see I may have confused you. The comments I cut and pasted @ 7.07pm come straight from the Davis blog. And no I'm not Mrs Davis either.

In2minds

Still more on FGM. Verity @ 10.37pm says - “Hirsi Ali has always refused to comment on the state of her genitals. And quite right too. We don’t know that she was mutilated”.

The friend I refer to @ 11.26pm above has lent me her copy of 'Infidel' by Ayaan Hirsi Ali published by Free Press, ISBN – 13:978-0-7432-9503-1 and ISBN – 10:0-7432-9503-X.

The operation was carried out by her Grandmother and is described on page 30 onwards.

Verity

Dixon, I'm certain you are misinformed. Hirsi Ali is not the victim type and she doesn't talk about her private life at all.

For people who'd like to read a modern Muslim point of view, in Toronto, author and lecturer Irshad Manji (irshadmanji.com)has been lobbying for a Reformation of her religion for quite some time and is a breath of fresh air. She is also a friend of Aayan Hirsi Ali.

And in Britain, we have Saira Khan, another one who simply won't keep her mouth shut. When I lived in France, there were a couple of chic (no burqas for them!), articulate Islamic women who were also arguing for Reform.

Strange that Muslims males - a particularly inadequate branch of the human species - don't seem so keen on dragging Islam into the 21st Century. Scared.

The gals will do it. The French government is supportive of a Reformation for Islam, but the British government loves the control aspect of this primitive belief sysem.

While I'm at it, one way of kicking the ignorant imams in the ... errrr ... face, would be to outlaw burqas on health grounds. They rob females of Vitamin D from the sun. It's an 'elth 'n' safety issue, innit?

rod seacole liddle

"Mr Wrong Puddle"? You've given it away mate. With wit like that you MUST be Clive Davis. Or his mum.

Dixon

"patricia
November 20th, 2009 1:45pm
Yikes!

A little like the Zionist svages murdering and maiming thousands of Palestinian civilians in the world's most 'ethically' fought invasion of all time."

I assume she is referring to David stoning Goliath, which in my opinion has been totally mis-represented in the anti-semitic media.

Dixon

"In2minds
November 21st, 2009 11:53am
Still more on FGM. Verity @ 10.37pm says - “Hirsi Ali has always refused to comment on the state of her genitals. And quite right too. We don’t know that she was mutilated”.

The friend I refer to @ 11.26pm above has lent me her copy of 'Infidel' by Ayaan Hirsi Ali published by Free Press, ISBN – 13:978-0-7432-9503-1 and ISBN – 10:0-7432-9503-X.

The operation was carried out by her Grandmother and is described on page 30 onwards."

Oh, so I was'nt misinformed after all. I mean I was right all along. Blast what a waste of key-strokes my retraction turns out to have been. And, as Neil Armstrong pointed out, our capacity for key-strokes is finite, which is why he doesnt squander them by jogging.

Dixon

Cat chewing clarification:

Even as I wrote the earlier comment about Somalis sending Khat "home" I knew it didnt add up. So on my visit to the office-courier service in question son afterwards ( where the sign stating that sending khat through the post was illegal had been displayed ) I had the young lady explain it to me.

Apparently, outside of Somalia, Britain is maybe the only place on Earth where khat can be grown legally. The Somalis here have a roaring trade growing the stuff and selling it by mail order to their compatriots abroad, particularly in the USA. The staff at at the courier service eventually realised that the various shipments of "books" that had to be in the USA "...by tomorrow, urgently..." were actually something else. They then tried to deter these customers by quoting an exorbitant price for shipping...which yielded not a wince from the dealers, who were willing to pay anything it took to satisfy their global clientele in khat chewing. So it was finally decided to put out the blasted great poster stating frankly that the shipment of such "products" was illegal.

Richard

Anna Wotana Kaye,

'so while many will succeed others will take to crime, often sophisticated high-tech crime, seeing that it can be the way to riches.'

Does that include gangrape?

Linda Smith

Verity, you wrote “The French government is supportive of a Reformation for Islam…” As the Koran is the revealed Holy book of God’s commands(via the Prophet), how can Islam be reformed?

Anne Wotana Kaye

Richard: Good evening to you on this wet miserable night. I certainly wasn't approving of crime, and am sorry if I gave that impression. I stated that intelligent minds can perform sophisticated high-tech crime, I didnt' say it was praiseworthy, but a fact of life. Richard, gang rape is hardly high -tech, and is a horrible joint act done usually by males of low intelligence and equally low self-esteem. I don't have exact statistics since political corerctness would most likely censor them, but I do not believe Somali immigrants are the main culprits. I am afraid most of the gang rapists, black, white and all shades between were born here on sink-estates to single mothers without any male role figures, no respect for mothers or other women and no interests beyond the lowest possible. Again I repeat, gang rape is not a high-tech crime, at least at time of going to press I haven't heard of any save those using computer websites to lure victims, and these are usually perpetrated against individual females.

Verity

Linda Smith asks me - "As the Koran is the revealed Holy book of God’s commands (via the Prophet), how can Islam be reformed?"

Gosh, Linda, I haven't a clue and don't care. I'd rather see the whole belief system banned as a dangerous cult. More bonkers than Scientology, even.

But if yours is a serious question, go to Irshadmanji.com This is a gal who lives in Toronto, bright and zippy, a friend of Aayan Hirsi Ali, an author and public speaker, and she is working for the reform of Islam. Presumably she knows whereof she speaks.

Perhaps a visit to her - usually quite entertaining - site, might provide you with a knowledgeable answer.

There are other Anglophone Muslim writers who advocate Reform, but I can't remember their names off the top of my head. One of them is that psychologist in LA. Wow! Is she a pistol! I'll look it up for you.

Btw, all, speaking of Toronto, it was the Muslim women in Ontario who got the well-meaning introduction of sharia courts kicked out of the Ontario legislature.

Although there are male activists as well, reformation of this brutal religion is clearly of more immediate interest to women.

Verity

Linda Smith et al, here is Syrian-American psychologist Wafa Sulta demolishing an Islamic cleric. He was so beaten up that he just shrank inside himself and stopped trying to answer.

http://tinyurl.com/gfcwz

And according to Arabs, she speaks a very elevated, elegant form of the language, which made it even worse for the creep trying to bully her.

If you like what you hear, there's more of her on Youtube.

YA

sweet revenge

The daughter of hate cleric Omar Bakri Mohammed is a POLE DANCER

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article1736666.ece

de-Islamization is rolling

make it fun

make it fast

make it full

Harry Calder

If you go to the scriptures of any religion, you'll find all sorts of things that are at best plain bonkers, and at worst, plain nasty & evil. The point is that most people have learnt not to take it all too seriously. So, for instance, Jews & Christians (well, most of them I guess) don't really take too seriously the injunction not to let witches live. The problem with the Islamic religion is not that there are daft things in their scriptures - that's par for the course for all religions - but that far too many of its followers take it all too seriously and too literally.

So yes, of course, Islam can be reformed and liberalised. And that's the only hope we've got, for, like it or not, it ain't going to go away.

Dixon

Harry Calder, Im afraid you make this very common mistake of equating the Bible with the Qouran. There is utterly no comparison. its like comparing "War and Peace" with the Highway code. One is a narrative containing many things one mighjt like, dislike, approve or disaprove. The other is a rigid set of rules. no narrative. No stories open top interpretation, parables or metaphors, a black and white set of rules. anyone who has read the Q knows this from the ache of the experience alone. it is not even sety out in anything resembling a chronological sequence. Instead the chapters are arranged in order of LENGTH, longest to shortest. I recommend you get a copy and keep it beside you.I dont say this to be patronising but because I do have a personal copy, full of page markers and noptes. It is right beside me now. It is aconstant reminder of the only real issue there is in the world today. I also use it as a coaster for cups of coffee.

Moreover, who says its not going away? A proper education system in the context of a free market would ensure that all religions wither to nothing.

Simon

Note to Rod et al: Never use irony on the Internet.

"Somalis tend to be violent, don't work much, chew a lot of qat and aren't very bright"

Would be better. John Snow of all people pointed this out in a Channel 4 program on immigration a while back.

Linda Smith

Verity, Muslim believers believe that the Koran, a book of rules as Dixon has pointed out, is the revealed word of God. Therefore Islam cannot be “reformed” - to do that would be disobeying the word of God. The would-be reformers are either disingenuous or ignorant of the history/theology of the religion.

Linda Smith

Harry Calder, those people who “have learnt not to take it all too seriously” evidently do not really believe that their religion is really God ordained. Maybe they do not even really believe in God, but merely enjoy particular aspects of their familial religion. Richard Dawkins is a good example; he does not “believe” in the theology of Christianity but enjoys the cultural trappings.

Linda Smith

Dixon, I disagree that religion would wither and die if people were educated in a particular way. Many people need religion, particularly organised religion, for emotional reasons, fear of death, isolation etc.

Peter from Maidstone

Linda Smith, with respect, your opinions are rather patronising and merely describe your own lack of appreciation and knowledge of what the true Christian life means.

Verity

Linda informs me that the women I have mentioned on being keen on reform: "are either disingenuous or ignorant of the history/theology of the religion."

You might like to drop Dr Wafa Sultan a line letting her know she's ignorant. Did you go to the YouTube link I posted? She's a psychologist in LA. She did the whole interview with the inadequate imam thingy on Al-Jazeera in fluent, elegant Arabic.

I don't know Irshad Manji's academic qualifications and am not going to look them up for you, but she's making more headway with her campaign up in Ontario than you are on this thread. She's funnier, too.

Harry Calder

Dixon, I bow to your knowledge of the Qu'ran. I confess to not having read it myself: the likes of Graham Greene & John le Carre are more my kind of bedtime reading. But I do know some people who are Muslims (insofar as they were born into Muslim families) who are perfectly civilised and companionable. How they reconcile their generally easy-going lifestyle with the various injunctions in the Qu'ran - I don't know, and I frankly don't care. All I know is that it *is* possible: calling onself a "Muslim" does not necessarily mean adherence to barbaric values. And I do feel that we must allow Muslims the space to condemn the horrors perpetrated in the name of their religion without having to deny their cultural identity.

This doesn't mean, of course, that we turn a blind eye to the sort of thing Rod has been writing about - far from it.

And incidentally, I very much doubt that "religions will wither to nothing" merely with a bit of education. The Soviet Communists tried to destroy religion - and they had, as Victor Laszlo might have said, somewhat more persuasive means at their disposal. If even a mass-murdering totalitarian regime couldn't put an end to religion, I doubt that "proper education system in the context of a free market" will do the job.

Anyway, it's nearly 11 at night, I've had a few un-Islamic drams, and I've got work tomorrow, so may I wish you all a very good night for now. Good night.

Jim Seacole Bob

Here in Australia, we have just had an outbreak of vibrancy at the Christmas Island refugee detention centre. Seems the Afghans and Sri Lankans could not wait to become part of Australia's diverse citizenry before laying into each other with heavy objects.

Linda Smith

Verity, the link you posted to Wufa Islam doesn’t work. Here is a snippet from Wiki on her attitude to Islam. She says she is a Muslim who does not believe in Islam:
‘In the same Time interview, Sultan described herself as a Muslim who does not adhere to Islam: "I even don't believe in Islam, but I am a Muslim."[12] However, in a recent conference associated with conservative writer and activist David Horowitz, Sultan said:

I have decided to fight Islam; please pay attention to my statement; to fight Islam, not the political Islam, not the militant Islam, not the radical Islam, not the Wahhabi Islam, but Islam itself...Islam has never been misunderstood, Islam is the problem....(Muslims) have to realize that they have only two choices: to change or to be crushed.’

For the believer, the Koran is the revealed Holy book of God’s commands (via the Prophet), therefore Islam cannot be reformed without disobeying God. It is a matter of logic, not wishful thinking. Either a Muslim believes that the Koran is the word of God or s/he doesn't. End of story.

Verity

Linda Smith, too bad the link didn't work. There are lots of other links on YouTube with Wafa Sultan. You could watch any of them.

Islam is dangerous to the health and always has been. It should not be tolerated in an advanced society.

Incidentally, Irshad Manji is a Sunni. You should go to her site. You might learn something.

Carl

I missed this one. I regret that there is little hope for Somalia or Somalis in general. they are an inward looking, backward people.

They are no more representative of Muslims in general than a holy fool is of Christians or,just to complete the trilogy, a nutcase Jew ranting about car parks being open on Saturdays is of Jews in general.

robbo

Carl, that's all very well - but your examples also give us a perfect illustration of why it's Islam that's the danger. I'd rather have someone moaning about the Sabbath than throwing rocks at my daughter

David Grayson

First G'Day All
Instead of trying to put Islam down how about we do something and stop the piracy and help in stopping violence and child abuse The extremes of any religion will lead to problems The so called christian beliefs had all the same trappings burning witches etc remember the Spanish Inquisitions and all in the name of the Pope. We let morals decline to the point of near depravity in western society here in Oz,US, there in England and Europe how about we all get our society cleaned up and then we have some ground to stand on when we come to criticising others
Dave
From OZ

Michael Jones

I guess the BBC will encourage us to blame.... Israel.

Verity

Carl writes: “I regret that there is little hope for Somalia or Somalis in general. they are an inward looking, backward people.” Does that mean they have their head up their arse?

He goes on to say, “They are no more representative of Muslims in general than a holy fool is of Christians …”. Well, yes, they are. Malaysia is still considered a moderate Islamic republic, but the courts recently sentenced a young Muslim woman to X strokes of the cane (that means rotan; or bamboo – not what we understand by “cane”) for drinking a beer.

So where is this mystical place you mention where Muslims aren’t really Muslims?

David Lindsay

Verity, gars are in no sense Sharia courts and their only sentence for anything is an apology and the payment of compensation. That raises problems of its own. But the situation is not remotely as you suggest.

Verity

David Lindsay, I don't know what you perceive I suggested, but gars are run by a local "strong man", or "uncle" and are most assuredly not a part of our Anglo Saxon legal system which already covers damages and compensation.

They should be shut down and anyone wanting to live within the gar system should be repatriated to the civilised and wealthy delights of whatever their capital city is called.

Linda Smith

David Grayson, the thinking in your comment is rather jumbled. For a start, when you say “We let morals decline to the point of near depravity in western society…” what “morals” are you talking about? As I see it, “western society” has descended into a relativistic hell. The new “moral” order seems to be determined by lefty liberals satisfying their own appetites.

Anne Wotana Kaye

Mr Ed Balls (an oxymoron if ever there was one) is allowing monies to go to islamic schools which preach racism and hate. But that's OK, they are politically correct as far as this rubbish government goes.

rhory fraser

It was ironic Wilhelm - funny how National stereotypes work isn't it?

Evangeline

I don't understand why people are claiming that Islam is inherently beyond reform. I suspect they think that all of Islam (including culture, law and aesthetic values) is codified in the Quran, and can only be interpreted in one way. But this is far from true.

Not only do Muslims disagree on how the Quran should be interpreted (something that has been true for over a thousand years), but the Quran represents only one part of Islamic tradition. While the Quran is believed to be the revealed word of God - and is deemed infallible in a way that most modern Christians and Jews would not feel so sure of saying about their religious texts - very many Islamic practices and values simply originate in the Arabian culture contemporary to Mohammed. Stoning, for instance, was practised as a punishment on the Arabian peninsula (including by Jews, who saw it as an essential part of their religious law, who I believe introduced the practice to the region) but is not demanded in the Quran. So many Islamic reformists see stoning as barbaric, without feeling they are compromising their faith in any way. In fact, this is not a case of some Muslims reading the Quran "more literally" than others, and therefore the "truest" believers being unable to escape the brutal conclusion that God requires stoning, while the "weaker" believers are prepared to fudge what the Quran really says. By contrast, modern Christian or Jew may view stoning as barbaric too, but they must face up to the fact that either their religious texts are erroneous, or that it was a punishment that at least for some historical period mandated by God.

Another root of Islamic beliefs, practices and values is the "hadith" - sayings of the Prophet, which are not taken as the revealed word of God. These have generally caused the biggest divisions in Islam. Firstly, because of disagreements over which are authentic. Islamic scholars came up with the practice of ascribing likelihoods or strengths to the hadith, which seems more intellectually honest than the binary "this book is in, this book is out" that was adopted by the early Christian scholars when they decided on which of the very many possible books to include in The Bible. Secondly, even if a hadith is true, just because Mohammed said somethind doesn't mean it needs to be followed. His views are given great weight, but need not be taken as the word of God. Thirdly, hadith are also open to interpretation in different ways. It might be confusing that some "fundamentalist" Muslims refuse to allow the artistic depiction of any living thing, and view the visual representation of Mohammed or any other prophet as a deep sin, yet other equally vociferous Muslims in Iran are quite happy to have paintings of Mohammed! This is actually a prime example of disagreement over the hadith. Both the aniconist and liberal movements have perfectly reasonable claims to be following authentic Islam.

Another area where reform is possible, is the Islamic mode of legal thinking. Provision is made for consensus (ijma) and logical analogy (qiyas) are complementary sources of law to the Quran. Different views on ijma and qiyas are compatible with the Quran, which gives Islamic reformists some headroom. Particularly for Shia Muslims, there is a movement for "itjihad" that may allow traditional texts and laws to be reinterpreted in a more modern context.

I'm not denying that Islam has many deep-rooted problems. Most Muslims throughout the world are very poorly educated, but even educated Muslims often hold views that seem deeply offensive or backsward. A contributory factor to this is that many Muslims have different ideas about what "religion" actually encompasses compared to Christians. For instance, most Christians don't feel compelled to follow dietary law (very few follow Lent in a traditional way), but like Jews, Muslims view diet as as an aspect of religion. We shouldn't be surprised that there are many parts of culture, arts and politics that we have become used to treating in the secular sphere, but Muslims treat as at least partially belonging to the religious sphere. The reverse is true also: a large proportion of European classical music is religious (explicitly Christian) in nature, and while we would describe it as a bedrock of our culture, we ought to accept that non-Christians can not be compelled to entirely buy into Christian music. If a Muslim child doesn't sing hymns in school assembly, I can respect that. For the most part Muslims don't incorportate music into religous ritual in the way we do - no hymns or masses. (Islam is a very diverse religion, and there are some exceptional sects, particularly in India!)

If you want to try and understand your Muslim friends, it helps if you understand that Islam isn't just like Christianity but with different beliefs and festivals (the things that tend to get taught in RE at school). They have different underlying conceptions of what the sphere of religion actually is. This leads to difficulty in mutual understanding, but also causes many of the problems in integration of immigrants. I am wary of Sharia courts practising in Britain, mostly because of concerns about the type of Muslims likely to be running them. But I do understand why some Muslims can feel a need for them, particularly for those aspects of their life which are not governed by British laws. The Jewish courts (Beth din) that govern Halakhic law in the UK would be a good model for British Muslims to follow. It's worth being aware that different Jewish courts in Britain do interpret Halakha in very different ways - from conservative to very liberal - while working from source material that may appear just as illiberal and barbaric as any that Muslim courts would work from.

There is real chance of Islamic Reformation in the next few decades, at the very least for pockets of Muslims in Western societies. Very many Muslims, even in Somalia, are sick of the likes of al-Shabab. But unfortunately it does feel like much of the Muslim world is regressing, while Western populations and governments seem insensitive and ill-informed about how Muslims feel, and the great diversity in forms of Islam that are practised at the moment. The deepest and most powerful causes of regression over the past few decades have been the use of Arab (especially Saudi) oil money to propagate more traditionalist forms of Sunni Islam (particularly to the detriment of Sufis), and a growing belief that the West is anti-Islamic and governments in Muslim majority countries have become increasinly subservient and complicit; the only appropriate response being deemed to be a return to more "pure" or severe forms of Islam. Suggesting that all Muslims are backwards savages and that Islam itself is inherently a threat to us, only strengthens the hand of extremists and stands in ignorance of both Muslim cultural and social achievements (there are a few!), and the diversity that exists within Islam (including Reformists). Unfortunately, cheerleading the Reformists only contributes to the illusion that they are "Western stooges" trying to eviscerate Islam from the inside: it's clear they are independently minded people who are developing trains of thoughts that have existed within Islam for centuries, and are just as authentically Muslim as the so-called "fundamentalists". It's going to be difficult for Western politicans, scholars and cultural leaders to help nurture the Reformist movement without falling into that trap.

Dave N

"There is real chance of Islamic Reformation in the next few decades, at the very least for pockets of Muslims in Western societies."
Only problem here, Evangeline, is that we do not have a "few decades" to spare. You want us to wait patiently for Islam to reform while Muslims are pouring into Europe and out-breeding us? Pie in the sky. I've see what a "few decades" has already done to towns in East Lancashire and that's why I'm voting BNP.

Linda Smith

Interesting pen-name, "Evangelina" - you trying to bring us the "good news" about Islam? Makes a change from the evangelising Jehovas Witnesses who usually pop up on my doorstep.

By the way please refrain from twinning Jewish and Islamic law - they are lightyears apart;in fact they inhabit two different universes:

"In October, 2008, a girl, Aisho Ibrahim Dhuhulow was buried up to her neck at a football stadium, then stoned to death in front of more than 1,000 people. The stoning occurred after she had allegedly pleaded guilty to adultery in a shari`ah court in Kismayo, a city controlled by Islamist insurgents. According to the insurgents she had stated that she wanted shari`ah law to apply.

However, other sources state that the victim had been crying, that she begged for mercy and had to be forced into the hole before being buried up to her neck in the ground.[13] Amnesty International later learned that the girl was in fact 13 years old and had been arrested by al-Shabab militia after she had reported being gang-raped by three men.(Wikipedia)

Grant Carlson

"I don't understand why people are claiming that Islam is inherently beyond reform".

Because, Evangeline, the moment any person stops believing in this inhumane and medieval craziness they stop being a Muslim.

It is impossible to be both a Muslim and a rational and caring human being. One negates the other.

Islam always trumps everything else in their world, even the rights of members of their immediate families.

Can you think of any reason why Muslims should be worthy of respect?

Evangeline

My respect for Muslims does not come from a respect of their religion in the abstract - Islam is a religion I do not adhere to, and have very many difficulties with. It stems from my many Muslim friends, who are all intelligent, rational, caring, open-minded, socially productive, and very good company to be around. I can fully understand that people without close Muslim contacts may believe that these personal qualities are antithetical to the viciousness and barbarism they perceive in Islam at an intellectual level, and in terms of how certain groups of Muslims behave. But Islam, as it is practised, is a surprisingly broad phenomenon; and Muslims themselves extremely diverse.

Judging all Muslims by the behaviour of al-Shabaab is not dissimilar to judging all Christians by the actions of the Lord's Resistance Army. It should most certainly not be swept under the carpet. The appropriate moral response is to condemn their outrageous actions, and the underlying beliefs that led them to take these actions. The cogent intellectual response would be to identify the factors that have led to radical Islamism developing the power, and in some segments of society, the popularity, to put these atrocious ideals into practice. The necessary political response is to take urgent steps to counteract these radicalising factors - preferably surreptitiously and with due craft, so that to be a moderate yet authentic Muslim is not perceived as being a "Western stooge".

I applaud Mr Liddle for condemning these actions; but I think he's misfired on his non-specifical condemnation of the causal beliefs. Being Muslim can not be, of itself, the reason al-Shabaab and their supporters have stoned this girl to death. Many fundamentalist Muslims would condemn the punishment, which is non-Quranic in origin. It is important to establish why such an extreme group has risen so far, and this analysis has been lacking in the press. Likely candidates are an anger at the failures and sordidness of the modern world and hence the desirability of returning to an earlier, "purer" state (which more moderate Muslims would see as a reinvention of the past - a false construct of history), hatred of what is perceived as Western/Zionist oppression, interference and contamination of culture (an oppression that may be more imagined than real, but which remains potent propaganda material), local nationalist agendas being conflated with religious ones (Somalia's case in point is anti-Ethiopianism, and some understanding of Somali-Ethiopian history is important here, but broadly similar issues arise around Islamic extremism in Chechnya, Dagestan, Sudan and Kashmir), the widespread failure of conventional state organs in many Muslim countries in matters of basic administration and justice, and the increased voice of hardliners across the Islamic world. This ever-louder voice is partly courtesy of Saudi-funded mosques, satellite TV (a medium suited to extremes, just compare US televangelists to a hypothetical 24 hour rolling channel of non-stop Rowan Williams!) and the spread of a madrassa system that is more efficient than dysfunctional or non-existent state education programmes, yet which often fail to cultivate essential skills and which are ideologically at the whims of their founders and trustees.

These and other factors need to investigated, and then strenuously addressed, so that effective steps are taken against the growth of Islamic extremism at home and abroad. Condemning Muslims as a whole for the actions of al-Shabaab, and as some people have the unfortunate tendency, to then conflate al-Shabaab with British Muslims, is only likely to decrease social cohesion and deepen gulfs.

It is unfortunate (and should have been preventable) that a large part of the British Muslim population is of Pakistani Kashmiri origin, an area which seems to be in regression, but even historically was not as liberal or cosmopolitan as the larger subcontinental cities. Turkish, Indonesian and Malay Muslims generally show higher levels of secularism and compatibility with Western societal norms. The common practice of 2nd and 3rd generation British Muslims marrying Pakistanis and then settling back in Britain, tends to reinforce the more conservative strands.

Those views about the British Muslim communities have also been expressed to me by several of my Muslim friends. They go on. Too much power, they feel, lies with community patriarchs, who are often foreign-born and educated. The tightly-bound nature of communities can feel stifling, especially in any matter that might stain family honour. There is not enough contact between young Muslims and non-Muslims - there comes a point when a "close-knit community" becomes a ghetto, a wholesome "family business" may simply appear to an outsider a closed-off "ethnic business", and a "faith school" can become self-imposed segregation (especially since few other community interfaces exist). Many of these issues are more ethnic than religious, but it isn't a great leap from a sense of separation to a desire for radicalism. Many of these issues have governmental solutions - can we not train more British Muslim pastoral leaders? Re-integrate our schools, possibly at the expense of faith schooling? Incentivise marriage within Britain rather than beyond it? Other issues require socio-cultural solutions, including on the part of us non-Muslims. Our youth culture is quite crass and sickening, and alienating to those of even non-extreme religious upbringing. There is a growing trend for Christian children now to be homeschooled as a consequence, so imagine how a teetotal Muslim with a young family might feel. Individual friendships between Muslims and non-Muslims are also vital for mutual understanding and successful integration. But if you reject all Muslims as inherently cruel and barbaric, then you're unlikely to make Muslim friends. If you say out loud that no Muslim is worth your respect, you only enhance alienation.

Speaking from personal experience, there are many really really lovely Muslim men and women out there who are more than worthy of your respect, and would make great friends. Seeing the world through their eyes can be difficult, strange, hard, amd sometimes troubling - but I must add that the views of fundamentalist Christians, left-wingers, Chinese nationalists, and Orthodox Jews have often stimulated me in the same kind of way. The fact I have fundamental disagreements with somebody on a philosophical or political level, doesn't mean we can't enjoy each other's company. And 95% of the time, people matter more than philosophical truth.

As alien as it looks to me, my friends generally find that their religion gives them a sense of inner peace, and purpose and guidance to their lives. For several, it has helped steer them away from the hedonistic and shallow lifestyles characterised by the pursuit of sex and intoxication - a pursuit that provides the foundations of youth for most young British people, from all social classes. Others have indulged nonetheless, and have a more ambiguous relationship with their faith. But neither the more nor less devout would have felt anything other than sympathy for the poor girl stoned by al-Shabaab.

I do have some bad news for those people who are pointing to this barbaric stoning as an indication of the superiority of Jewish law over Islamic law. The reason al-Shabaab stoned the poor girl to death, is exactly because Jewish law prescribed the punishment of death by stoning for adulterers. To Christians, this is mostly familiar through the story of the stoning of an adulteress ("Let he who is without sin...") - a passage that is textually quite likely to be inauthentic, but which does correctly describe the legal punishment. Jewish groups brought this law into the Arabian pensinula, where it was still practised in the time of Mohammed. The Quran does not specify that adulterers should be stoned, but Mohammed did not abolish the practice. (Contrary to myth, Mohammed did not in fact create a completely new culture and society in Arabia, and many traditional aspects of local culture and practice simply continued. Muslim scholars have long debated to what extent the continuation of pre-Islamic practices, if not explicitly condemned, should simply be interpreted as historical 7th century Arabian culture, or an integral part of Islam as it was originally practised. This has become one of the focal points of itjihadi reformists, but the use of stoning for adultery cases is also condemned by many mainstream Muslims globally, who would not see themselves as "reformists" per se.)

The fact that Jews no longer practise stoning to death for adultery - even though it is written clearly in their scripture that they should - is a reason to be optimistic that the practice will also cease in Islamic countries. The Orthodox Jewish position is that stoning to death does remain the legal punishment for adultery! But its practical abolition came about throught the application of increasingly higher standards of evidence to the point where conviction became unrealistic, and also the restriction of the punishment to higher courts. So the same Orthodox Jew who points out that stoning to death is still legally the punishment, can also continue that, without a Jewish king, and without the sanhedrin, nobody now has the power to pass the sentence under Jewish law. (Maimonides did point out, though, that rulers of non-Jewish kingdoms were under a Biblical obligation to administer the Noahide Law, rather than the full Jewish Law, and did not need to consult with a Jewish king or court to do so. This is the basis on which some Orthodox Jewish groups support capital punishment in Western countries. Technically adultery would be a capital crime under Noahide Law, but I have fortunately yet to see an Orthodox Jewish group calling for it!)

It's a trite point that Halakha and Sharia have similarilities on dietary law - kosher and halal. But it's still a valid point - particularly when considering the scope of law, which in Sharia and Halakha encompasses ritual purity, not just health and safety like secular food laws do. And the similarities do run much deeper than that. Both cover much more than crime and punishment: family law, financial transactions and hygiene, for starters. The Jewish law on capital punishment is remarkably humane - their legal scholars have clearly taken every loophole available to avoid its administration. But similar traits can be seen in most schools of Islamic law - an emphasis on forgiveness and mercy, and notably similar to Halakha, the imposition of difficult evidentiary rules to avert punishment. Some of the similarities are offputting to me as an outsider: both give lower evidentiary value to the testimony of women. I have been told by both Muslims and Jews that this is an example of their wonderfully humane tendency to make it hard to present sufficient evidence to convict anyone...and besides, women can be manipulated more than men. I am deeply, deeply unconvinced.

I can recognise the "manipulability" argument: Christians used it to justify married women not being allowed to own individual property, a stricture that held until apallingly recently. I appreciate that, to be fair, they did allow married women to have property held on trust for their benefit, but the whole idea is wrong-headed. Curiously, under Sharia, married women had more property rights centuries ago. Many Muslims use that fact to argue that Islam is not inherently backwards or misogynistic, and has for centuries been ahead of the West. But since it presently seems to be dragging behind, for me what matters is making sure that Muslim women receive other rights too, that we have come to take for granted. I can assure you that many Muslims agree. I wish I knew how to help them achieve it the fastest, but I don't think it'll help to call them all savages.

Dave N

Evangeline - You mention your "many Muslim friends" and go on to say - "Individual friendships between Muslims and non-Muslims are also vital for mutual understanding and successful integration."
The big problem with this is that the Koran repeatedly forbids Muslims from having non-Muslim friends. Kuffar are on the same level as dog saliva and pigs, according to Islamic teaching.So where do we go from here?

Saul

'Embrace your inner Seacole'

Wonderful

Tammy Flue

Moving in .. Have you noticed how "sharia" sounds like "shire"?

Liban

what a pathetic piece of shit. you cant print anything interesting so you come up with diatribe like this to gain peoples attention.

First of all why don't you give more details about this story. so that your readers can decide for them self after reading the facts, it is what any competent journalist would have done. but it is clear you are a man with an agenda and do not seek impartiality, you just want to foist your ugly views on people.

JoeMalc

'Bugger someone adulterously in Somalia while calling a Mohammed a gimp and you’re REALLY in trouble'

This isn't Rob Liddle, no way.

Salim Azeez

If people in the west would treat Muslims with more respect, this mwouldn't happen

Janice Woodford

This is to James wake up! How would you feel if they decide that your mother was an adulteress and said to everyone, here is all the stones you'll need to kill this woman she is unfit she said she was raped but she does not have five men that saw it to back up her words so kill her she is guilty.
Now how is that for tolerance?
Wake up you idiot!

Garry

Wilhelm, he is!

Not familiar with sardonic irony are we?

Louise Orrock

I came across this article while trying to find out what Liddle had written about the Stephen Lawrence case. Like Liddle, I am an LSE graduate. Unlike him, I have spent twenty years teaching (including Access, which is perhaps the route that took Liddle to LSE) and, though perhaps more aware than he of the dangers of generalising, have noticed that a disproportionate number of Somalis do indeed exhibit a keen, piercing intelligence, as well as an altogether finer nature than Mr Liddle's.