For Taipei exile and others……………

David

Wonder what would happen if a mosque decided to put up a tower with a clock and steeple. Would that be a minaret?

Wilhelm

The mineret is not just a piece of architecture, its a sign of power and conquest, plus I think its er, um, ugly looking and out of place amongst the Alps, cowbells and Swiss chalets. Its ok in downtown Mesopotamia and Persia but not in
Heidi country.

It would spoil the charm of the place.

Stuart Seacole Smith

Yep, auntie-beeb is now predictably flooding the air-waves with neutrally worded reporting:

"the Swiss government is now faced with the difficult prospect of explaining this result...". "Switzerland facing widespread international criticism". "Swiss authorities now very concerned about the image of Switzerland... and their national security". Etc.

Actually I'm a bit surprised they allowed mention of the security point - it kind of implies that some mad mozzers might actually wish some kind of harm to befall the land of the cuckoo clock as a result of this vote. As far as I am aware such an implication goes against everything the BBC stands for.

Anyway, archaic as a political system may seem which calls a referendum on things as important as whether one should start with the left or the right shoe when tying your laces, I can't help feeling that if similar referenda were held across the other EU countries, the results just might come out rather similar. But of course, nobody else will be asked.

se1man

Why does the BBC need to have an Islamic Affairs Analyst?

do they have similar Affairs Analysts for Buddhism, Hinduism, Jainism, Zoroastrianism, Paganism, Judaism, Sikhism, Cheondoism, Tenrikyo, Rastafarianism...?

ES

Re the referendum - it was only a matter of time before the worm turned, wasn't it. It's not the minarets that people mind so much as the ongoing assault by Islam on the culture of their host nations. It's amazing that there are so many lefty types who are willing to defend Islamic freedoms. They should be forced to spend a few years in a Moslem country and see what freedom really means before they pontificate about Islam to the rest of us.

Joe Strummer

The BBC is truthophobic, suffering a chronic, irritational fear and terror of reporting reality.

anne allan

Rod - you really mustn't be so judgemental.
Stoning women to death is an intrinsic part of Islamic culture and therefore we intolerant Westerners must not try to change it.

Augustus

A headline on the BBC's Monitoring page exclaims: Middle East press sees double standards in Swiss ban, and then goes on to quote various comments from ME papers most of which talk of far-right extremism and racism against Muslims. But that's a bit rich. Go to Saudi Arabia, for example,
and you would be hard put to find a church, or even a Holy Bible, and you can even be arrested there for holding a Christian service or celebrating Christmas in your own home if discovered doing so.

There may only be four minarets in the whole of Switzerland, but there are 200 mosques, and the construction ban does not apply to the building of mosques; just do't put minarets
on them. Perhaps they frighten the cows. They certainly frighten the Heidis and are considered emblems of female repression and even symbols of
missiles. Imagine if every canton had one, it just wouldn't be Switzerland anymore.

As for the freedom of religious expression. Yes, religious freedom does have its limits. A religion which preaches murder and encourages death to unbelievers is unacceptable. So what is acceptable? Is it acceptable that a Muslim employer can insist on a prayer room? Is it reasonable to have to provide halal meals in a works cantine? Must religious garments such as headscarves be worn in public places? Must Muslims pray in public, wear burkas, hit their wives, give lessons about the Koran, sit in seperate places? It seems that with Islam's arrival in the West
we have all got to define the parameters all over again, and decide what is and is not acceptable. A struggle which we had a century and more ago we now have to go through all over again with Islam. that's the real moral of the minaret story.
The Swiss have at least let the world know what is not acceptable.

Sam Rushdy

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/8382132.stm

Mein Kampf a hit on Dhaka streets
By Alastair Lawson
BBC News, Dhaka

Booksellers touting their wares amid the heavy traffic in the Bangladeshi capital, Dhaka, have discovered an unusual best-seller.

Adolf Hitler's autobiography manifesto Mein Kampf is selling as well as Dan Brown's latest novel, The Lost Symbol.

Last week, Mein Kampf did unusually well because many bought the book to give it away as an Eid present.

David Ossitt

“And for many of the estimated 15 million Muslims in Western Europe, the Swiss vote will be seen as one more sign that - whatever governments may say - they are simply not welcome”

Well he has got one thing right; what people like him call Islamophobia is actually the common sense reaction to a great long list of Islamic ideas thoughts and actions that separate those of us who stem from a 21st century Judaeo-Christian background from the primitive medieval cult that is Islam.

When Muslims all over the western world stand up and condemn; slavery, female genital mutilation, the stoning of young women, the hate of homosexuality, all cruel and demeaning punishments, and when they condemn every terrorist killing that is committed in gods name.

They; then, might just be welcome.

Gil

And over at the Guardian's CIF they are having an orgy of articles on this because the first one by Tariq Ramadan was utterly demolished (suprisingly for CIF) that they just HAD to redress the balance....by publishing two more and an editorial, praying that they got the right amount of condemnation for the Swiss.

How pathetic.

The BBC and the Guardian don't respect Democracy if it throws up results that go against their Dhimmi world view.

daniel maris

Rod -

Presumably it's just a coincidence as well that the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (the organisation representing Islamic states across the world) is the only bloc in the world now to positively renounce the UN Declaration on Human Rights and seek to substitute a torturer's charter in its place (see the Cairo Declaration).

As for R Hardy he seems no better and no worse than the run of the mill PC journalist of today. As he's an Iranian "expert" it would seem, I find it incredible he can't spot the connection between Islam and the lack democracy in that benighted land.

On the Swiss referendum I fully support their right to have a referendum and to reach such a decision.

As long as Saudi Arabia and other Muslim countries refuse reciprocal rights in the Muslim world we should indeed treat Muslim places of worship with a rational degree of suspicion.

No one has any idea in the UK what is being taught at the Islamic evening and Saturday school - they appear to be exempt from the education inspection rules even though children attend them for sometimes 10 or even 20 hours a week.

When I've looked into the matter the schools seem somewhat circumspect about the curriculum as far as the internet goes but you will find reference to Islamic battle history.

Daniel Lionsden

I've already seen 3 hand wringing op-eds in the Guardian. One, anonymously-authored and hastily put out to express that august organ's shock at this shameful piece of democracy is perhaps the most hilariously self-parodying Guardian article I've read in a long while. And I know it has had a lot of compettition recently.
Odd, I don't remember them getting so outraged by the ban on crucifixes in Italian schools.

Dixon

As for mister Beebs blog. Cheeky Mr Liddle wants us to troll over there as his droogs. Only I cant be arsed. Its Beeb territory and therefore beyond the pale.

Unless others report back that they have paved the way.

Tom Pride

Shortly after the unexpected result came through I saw a BBC TV news report from Switzerland in which the woman reporter gave an astonishingly partial account of the result and its implications. Even by BBC standards it stood out. It was an emotionally charged personal tirade from someone shocked and outraged by a result they had not anticipated.

I can find no reference to the report on the BBC website. Although I heard the reporter’s name (she was around thirty, tanned, black hair and it was an ethnic name), I did not make a note of it, which has made tracing the report difficult.

I did find a comment on the biased-BBC website by someone who saw the same report:

“cassandra king – I actually heard the BBC first report and the BBC reporter was most certainly upset and offended, unable to comprehend the result and clearly showing which side of the debate her loyalties lay.”

Maybe you can use your sources to track it down. It was a shocker – far worse than Roger Hardy.

London Calling

At some point we have to meet in the middle over Islamophobia and have a sensible debate. Its not about what points up in the sky but what’s staring us in the face, Islam is not compatible with western values, however for moderate Muslims the majority of which live peacefully and enjoy the freedoms that western democracy has provided we still live in parallel worlds. Tolerance versus intolerance, democracy versus oppression, equality versus inequality. And there’s the rub, the friction, the tinderbox.
We dare not speak of it for fear of offending, we dare not speak of it for fear of reprisals, we fear and Islamophobia becomes a word that means to be silent, not to speak out, not to express our fears. The truth is we are not democratic when we oppress our values to appease.

Compatibility with moderate Muslims is not the problem, those within Islam who spread their extremists views, distort
the Koran and are full of hatred. Until we have a sensible debate
without fear the fault lines will continue to widen and unrest will inevitably follow…

daniel maris

Tom Pride -

Ethnic name?

Did you mean Imogen Foulkes?

Sounds ethnic - Anglo-Celt indigeous ethnic.

Taipei Exile

Thanks Rod,

I look forward to your article. Personally i think the Swiss have had a look at how spineless their European neighbours have become in the face of an increasingly militant Islam and have decided to try to nip it in bud. And fair play to them.

Terry Walpole

A few years ago Today reporter Angus Stickler (I think) filed a report about the head of a black child being found and the involvement of various African churches in London. These mutilations and tortuous exorcisms occurred because these churches actually believed that the children were possessed by demons he said. He then added hastily, ''Not that there's anything wrong with that''lest the Blair Thought Police (BBC Div.) kicked the studio door down and sent Stickler off for 're-programming'.

Alan Scott

One cannot comment on Mr Hardy's article on his site.
I notice how he jumps from "unease" (at Muslim presence and activities) to "islamophobia" in two sentences. That really exposes his prejudices.

Keith D

I look forward to your article Mr Liddle.
Oft forgotten in the furore over the Swiss vote are the influence of Swiss women who in natural self defence wish to see no encroachment of Sharia.Witness the barbaric stoning to which you rightly refer.Also the Swiss government attempted under Muslim pressure to railroad the local authority on this question.Therefore there was a dimension of supporting Local Democracy to it.
Mr Hardy seems typical of the Beebs PCMC agenda and well in touch with his Nu Lab immigration junkie bosses.His "Islamophobia" overuse tickles my funny bone as a poor attempt to demonise those who have legitimate concerns about this expansionist ideology in our midst.How dare we fear a culture that routinely employs terror to further its root cause of worldwide dar al islam?
What a coincidence indeed that democracy fails to flourish in these conditions.
The BBC attitude is not stand alone,as even the American MSM is infected with unwillingness to call terrorism its true name.Witness the refusal to describe the Fort Hood jihadist as such.
In this polarised world it should be an integral part of our defence and foreign policy to encourage and fertilise youthful cries for democracy in the Islamic world so shamefully denied to the greens in Iran.
There may be hope as organisations like the BMSD do good work and demonstrate that many Muslims would prefer to integrate whilst keeping their private faith.No problem.But are these good people winning the argument with the zealots? Not if the events the other day in Luton are to be taken at face value.
For people all over a disenfranchised Europe the equation is quite simple.We do not feel ready to endorse the destruction of our values and way of life and wish to see no more Muslim encroachment on our societies until we believe peaceful integration is possible on our terms. Rooting out and exposing those who wish to destroy us would be a start.

R Mitchum

This article is absolutely correct. The BBC typically blamed the vote on the extreme right whereas it was Islam's treatment of women and the fear that it might one day occur in Switzerland which decided the vote. No wonder the EU reacted with such hostility when they saw a disturbing case of democracy just over their borders.

Stuart Seacole Smith

Minaret-gate is clearly about much more than the fact that many may think minarets look a bit out of place nestled, as it were, in the peach-fuzzed bosom of Heidi's birthplace.

I think it's got more to do with a wider problem among muslim immigrants to western countries, and second-generation muslims (not all obviously, but too many) of understanding the unwritten social contract of immigration:

1. you or your parents chose to emigrate from your home country.
2. the fact that you have been welcomed to a society with greater freedoms and opportunities than afforded by your country of origin is a priviledge
3. You understand and accept that the customs and laws in the west are different to those in your country of origin
4. You are expected to make efforts to integrate with the society you have joined - western countries are (now) founded on a concept of nationhood and collective solidarity.
5. You are free to engage with, and indeed change the society you have joined; but must respect local laws and customs
6. You would do well to go further than just respecting laws and customs, and to nurture a sensitivity to what is likely to offend or alarm in the west, and avoid that
7. If you reach out to and respectfully engage with the society you have joined (remember - it is you that has joined it, not vice-versa), you can have a pretty decent and peaceful life, society will accomodate you. If you don't, you are inevitably condemning yourself to a life on the fringes of society, and your children to a sense of rejection, living outside mainstream society.

To me, imperfectly as I may have phrased it the above is just a statement of the bleedin obvious. A schoolkid moving to a new school can figure it out.

Sadly though, it seems that for many muslim immigrants the need for this kind of mindset has not been obvious. And now that friction is increasingly noticeable it's very difficult to go back and retrospectively fix things.

The Western European assumption that a common sense unwritten contract was understood has proved wrong. For Muslims. Most other ethnic/ religious groups seem to be able to make a fair fist of it.

The US has a different approach to immigration. It might seem a bit pie in the sky and schmaltzy, but their concept of requiring immigrants to join the nation, and pledge allegiance may have more to it than you think at first glance.

Fergus Pickering

My wife was INCANDESCENT with rage at some mad mullah from Luton on the Today programme. This was to do with the excellent Baroness Warsi being pelted with eggs by this chap's knuckle-dragging cronies. Why? Because she wasn't a good muslim. There's gold in that thar Baroness.

Pot Head

Dan Hannan disagrees with the Spectator "loons". Even your heroes let you down..

"it suggests that Western democracies have a problem, not with jihadi fruitcakes, but with Muslims per se – which is, of course, precisely the argument of the jihadi fruitcakes."

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/danielhannan/100018278/switzerland-bans-minarets-long-live-referendums-even-when-they-go-the-wrong-way/

Tom Pride

daniel maris
December 2nd, 2009 12:41am
Tom Pride - “Ethnic name? Did you mean Imogen Foulkes? Sounds ethnic - Anglo-Celt indigeous ethnic.”

I am not good with names unless I mentally associate them immediately or jot them down – which I did not do. I thought it might have been Imogen Foulkes and checked her picture on the BBC website. I could not tie her face in with my memory of the reporter’s face. I was listening more so than watching but she seemed younger.

I used “ethnic” as it was the politest way I could think of saying that the name was not a run of the mill English name. I meant no more than that.

Tom Pride

Regarding my earlier comments on the reporter, I can confirm that it was Imogen Foulkes. There is now an extract of the report on Youtube. She contrasts the acceptability of christmas trees to the ban on minarets.

What is more this is a classic example of the consequences of partial and unreasonable reporting by the BBC. The clip has been put up by a BNP supporter who makes use of Imogen Foulkes report, crass analogy and sneering tone to further their cause. She makes their case for them.

Totally irresponsible reporting with damaging consequences. Why can’t the bien-pensants think these things through?

For those of you interested in the clip (be warned it is a BNP post) the link is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeuyPuhy7LQ

You can pick up the tone of the report from the extract.

THX1138

Like last time it will be the Jews next:

The minarets are but a pretext – the UDC wanted first to launch a campaign against the traditional Islamic methods of slaughtering animals but were afraid of testing the sensitivity of Swiss Jews, and instead turned their sights on the minaret as a suitable symbol.

They have Form:

According toThe Anti-Defamation League , "This is not the first time a Swiss popular vote has been used to promote religious intolerance. A century ago, a Swiss referendum banned Jewish ritual slaughter in an attempt to drive out its Jewish population..

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3814057,00.html

Truth

In answer to THX1138, the vote by the Swiss is not about religous intolerance, it is about protecting their freedoms. If you really want to know what religious intolerance is, then go to a muslim country, where there is no tolerance of non muslims. That is what some muslims want Europe to be like. The Swiss won an important victory, and showed more sense than our government.

hiro

I believe in a secular state where all the religions can keep their grubby hands off of government. Abide by that, and don't harm anyone, then believe do as you like.

However, I also believe that banning religious artifacts is unpleasent. Much as I would a Christian symbol, so as an Islamic one. I thought the West was a leader in freedom?

Keith D

hiro@ Wholeheartedly agree with your secular sentiments and that banning of symbols is unpleasant. However, to maintain our leadership in delivering freedom we must first ensure our own. We must make a stand if freedoms flame the world over is not to be extinguished by submission to Islamic ideology.

Rhoda Klapp

Yes, the Swiss are dangerous racists and religious bigots, and sensible Muslims will leave that benighted land to return to the bosom of Abraham and Mohammed, pboh.

logdon

First Switzerland, now Italy could be next country to ban building of minarets

By Daily Mail Reporter
Last updated at 10:22 PM on 01st December 2009

Italy could become the next European country to hold a referendum on the building of Islamic minarets.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1232476/First-Switzerland-Italy-second-country-ban-building-minarets.html#ixzz0YYrM84Qs

I sense revolution in the air.

Wilders second most popular politician in the Netherlands. Griffin gaining 22% approval rating after Question Time. Right wing party's gaining all over Europe.

We've had enough!

logdon

From the excellent Islam in Europe blog.

Seems like climate isn't the only one which the media is shilling for.

Switzerland: How many Muslims are there?

This might be nitpicking, but as I've followed articles on the Swiss minaret ban, I've noticed the number of Muslims fluctuating.

Before the final results:

Muslims make up about 6 percent of Switzerland's 7.5 million people. Many Swiss Muslims are refugees from the Yugoslav wars of the 1990s. Fewer than 13 percent practice their religion, the government says, and Swiss mosques do not broadcast the call to prayer outside their buildings.

After the final results:

Supporters of the ban said the number of Muslims in Switzerland had grown sharply from 50,000 in 1980, but it is still only 4 percent of the 7.5 million population, many of whom don't practice. Western Europe has an estimated 14 million Muslims.

According to the AP, it took a day for a third of Swiss Muslims to disappear. Either that, or the AP is using whichever demographics are more convenient to make the point ('Muslims are integral to Switzerland' vs. 'there's barely any Muslims around').

--
Posted By Esther to Islam in Europe at 12/02/2009 11:00:00 AM

Sea Minaret Coal

The Euroelites were not so much perturbed by an infringement of the right to religious freedom as the threat of Islamic violence in response to the result.

Lungfish

But have you been to the Brighton Pavillion?