Benefits of a multi-cultural Britain

Fergus Pickering

I say, Rod. You are putting your head above the parapet. I admire your courage, you lovely right-wing racist bastard you. I can't understand how some of my mild-as-milk remarks about the muslim community seem to fall by the wayside. Are the different people looking at the different posts? In other words can I get things onto your blogs I can't get onto other people's? For instance, can I say how unhappy I would be if either of my daughters took up with a man of colour?

Seacole Shanty

Are you sure about crimes of sexual violence? How do you know? I'm certain that the others are correct, however.

50 seacole

where's the respect ?

Middle Class - just afloat

Short and to the point. Now let's hear from the "defenders" of this vibrant, caring, humane, etc etc multicultural policy which has been forced upon us. Let's hear their defence,and let them show how they share in it and enjoy it -from their comfortable, well-distanced monocultural suburbs in Hampstead etc and second homes in Tuscany, from their rich friends' yachts; nimbies to a man and woman, the lot of them.

Lupus Lungfish

Rap culture is an expression of anger felt by the black community against the evil white oppressor. I personally would also like to thank all those politicians who have enriched our culture from the forties onwards with their wise and well thought out immigration policy.

R Mitchum

You can keep the rap music and goat curry, I'll have things as they used to be. You remember the time when there was something called optimism, a sense of community and belonging, and, by and large, goodwill. Even the "Winter of Discontent" seems idyllic compared to this. Then Thatcher and Blair came along. Sometimes it is like waking up on a bus having missed your stop and finding yourself in a totally alien environment. Tell the driver to take us back.

Taipei Exile

Don't forget the version of English they have invented as well as the ridiculous mocked up "gangsta" accent with which they speak it. See excerpts of the online chat the two of them had for more details of our good fortune at this cultural enrichment.

seb

Children will behave as badly as the adults - yes, I know, in the UK, one usually uses this term more often than not for its ironic and comic tone - around them permit. The comments below the article to which Ron's brief piece is linked are full of stone-throwers blaming 'Liebore' and various manifestations of our permissive culture. If Roy 'Woy' Jenkins were still with us, he could remind us of one of the elemental truths about Me-ism and the Permissive Society. The second makes us freer than we were. The first, its cousin, frequently makes society more barbaric. We've bought into these puerile mindsets over several generations and people are upset that the merchandise has proved to be putrid.

MaxSceptic

....and the Pope is Catholic.

Please tell us something we don't already know.

James Murphy

Point taken, Rod. But It is surely profoundly sad that Black music in particular, and much of Black creativity in general, have been diverted down the (literally) dead-end of gangster-rap and drug-culture; Though not entirely lost, the memory of Black music's once vibrant, life-affirming qualities, evident in the best Jazz, funk and soul (think Coltrane, Hancock, Earth, wind and Fire, etc, etc) have been sinisterly eclipsed in modern youth consciousness. The causes of this are no doubt manifold, but again I have to say, Rod, that one of them, is undoubtedly an increasingly aggressive sense of resentment encouraged by Socialism's cult of 'victimhood' - a mindset which justifies all violent expressions of social disgust and despair, on the grounds that they have social roots. And yet one looks back at the opposite joyous kind of music mentioned above, and sees that in previous decades, where social deprivation was worse than it is today, black creativity thrived and prospered! - Thus Art rises above politics.

Edward McLaughlin

Well done for mentioning these two British citizens. Saw this yesterday and couldn't believe it. Well, yes I could unfortunately.

What on earth is happening and what is to be done?

Could it be this: could it be that we on this little island, sheltered all these years from the truer evil of the wider world, became spoilt and softened and no longer able to operate at a level sufficient to keep the psyche of the nation strong; such that our leaders sought to inject a little 'reality' back into us?

Is this our return to the murderuos mire? Our re-education into the way it really is, after our post-war reverie?

Simon Stephenson

Hmmm.

Are you intimating that the behaviour of the "human filth" is typical of the "young men from the African-Caribbean community"?

Or are you seeking to suggest that such inhumanity is peculiar only to this section of society - that no young, indigenous white man, for example, could ever behave in such a way?

To my mind, multi-culturalism causes enough real problems to governing authority without things being stirred up by scare stories designed to encourage the public to generalise from the specific.

Carl

And Qat.

unutterably bored

Rap "culture" is almost on a par with the coarse shrieking and wittering of Labour back-benchers, but at least it's (arguably) musical.

David Lindsay

The older West Indians are the most polite, law-abiding, God-fearing people that you could ever want to meet, and a very traditional British education system is still maintained in the Commonwealth countries of the Caribbean, most of which remain staunchly monarchist and several of which freely chose to remain British Overseas Territories, although Britain is trying to stop the Cayman Islands (like my native Saint Helena) from including Christianity in the new Constitution, as the local population strongly desires to do.

All in all, if "young men from the African-Caribbean community" (half of all children with one Afro-Caribbean parent now have one white parent, anyway) commit "the overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London", then there is something about Britain, or probably about London specifically, that has had that effect on them.

Fergus Pickering

But Simon, every wise man generalises from the specific. If I read of a number of fatal air crashes involving (say) Russian airliners, then I may deem it wise to fly Boeing. Rod says that the crimes he is talking about are committed more often by black people. I believe that is true. Of course that does not mean that ALL black people are violent criminals. But it does mean that a sensible man may deem it prudent to avoid walking in areas where black people predominate. That is sensible generalising from specifics.

robbo

Ooo Rod - you are awful! What's that nice Clive Davis going to say about this post?

Tom Pride

The multiculturists blindly state that there will be a positive impact from the fusion of the best from different cultures. Mark Steyn points out that more often there is a negative impact from the fusion of the worst elements in both cultures.

Hence the goat curry is somewhat offset by gangster rap and gun crime as the negative aspects of the host culture fuse with those of the incoming culture.

Take a look at those decent, law abiding, hardworking, Church going immigrants arriving off the boats from the Caribbean and wonder how that was so transformed in two generations.

You are being almost as brave here as that passer-by. Multiculturism like AGW is a religion and in the eyes of its believers exempt from critical analysis. Expect to be burnt at the stake.

In2minds

Remember the 'Guess the weight of the cake' competition? It was popular at fund raising events back in the 1960's. Well how about a 'Guess the combined IQ' of this lot competition? How are these people so stupid, are they born like it or do they become stupid?

That's enough questions for now and remember I just need to know how this happened. I accept in advance it's 'our' fault.

rod seacole liddle

James Murphy - agree absolutely.

Woodbine 'Hideously White' Willy

Out here in leafy Herts, there was a similar horror a couple of years ago, although the details were different - the weapon was a knife not a canal, the 15-year-old victim was believed (wrongly) to have given one of her attackers aids, and there was no rap 'music' involved.
All three participants were what Greg Dyke (your old boss?) termed "hideously white".
respec bruv!

Shakassoc

Mr R Seacole Liddle, if we are to use proper English it should be 'Afro-Caribbean', not 'African-Caribbean'. For some obscure reason a lot of people have taken exception to the term 'Afro-Caribbean', seemingly ignorant of the fact that it is the normal construct in the English language when combining two adjectival forms of proper nouns (e.g. Sino-Japanese). It is probably the same instinct on certain people's parts that impelled them to take offence at the word 'niggardly'. Please desist from this concession to linguistic ignorance. Thank you.

Nicholas

Be careful, you'll have daniel maris popping his head round sniffing the air for sweaty brown shirts if you are not careful.

Btw. Good articles in the Speccie this week by Rod on Swiss minarets and Andrew Gilligan on Ed Balls' protogé, the fanatical Farah Ahmed (whose belief in multi-culturalism is somewhat narrow) and the Ofsted Hizb ut Tahrir connection. Has the backlash begun?

seb

David Lindsay

Exactly. In too many instances, the grandchildren of some of these wonderful people scarcely seem to belong to the same species. What Britain and its mewling, neanderthal, bum-scratching 'culture' has wrought on the genuinely admirable cultures of immigrant populations is grotesquely obscene. I hope that more recent immigrants realise that their descendants will be better off raised back home and not in Little Britain.

Duppy Busta Seacole

Big ups and respec brutha Rod. Am jus hopin no hopped up homie comes round the hood to bust a cap in yo ass. No what I´m sayin.

Jeremy

seb:

"Ron's brief piece..."

Ron? Do you mean Ron Liddle? Reg Liddle's brother? Have you been mixing it up with the Liddles?

Snowman

In the old barbaric Britain, these two men would have hanged. The message to others who may have had similar ideas was clear: you murder, and your own life’s in jeopardy. As a result, few hanged, but the vast majority lived in peace. In out enlightened society, these bastards will be out within few years, the vast majority suffer. Since capital punishment got kicked into the long grass, over 120 murderers who got released after they served their tariffs murdered again.

Capital punishment saves lives. It's a just, fair, and truly liberal society that has the guts to rid itself of human cancer.

Chris

>Black music's once vibrant, life-affirming qualities, evident in the best Jazz, funk and soul (think Coltrane, Hancock, Earth, wind and Fire, etc, etc)

Oh, let's think a bit harder than that: Satchmo, James Brown, P-Funk.

Edward McLaughlin

seb.

"What Britain and its mewling, neanderthal, bum-scratching 'culture' has wrought on the genuinely admirable cultures of immigrant populations is grotesquely obscene."

My that's a hefty bill.

Could we have it itemised please?

daniel maris

Well yes it is imperial pay back time in many ways.

I put it down in part to British ignorance of our slaving, land grabbing colonial past.

Had the question been put:

"Do you think it would be a good idea to bring into this country the descendants of the people you enslaved, flogged, worked to death, raped, denied any education, stole from, denied the vote, kept in poverty and generally abused?"
then we might have had pause to wonder and enquired a bit more about exactly who it was we were letting in.

As it is, we are where we are. I tap my foot to Tynchy Stryder (actually he's of Ghanaian background I think) and the vast mass of African-Caribbeans are not going around throwing girlfriends in canals.

But we know the African-Caribbean family has gone into meltdown and there is a really serious crime problem (and denial about it) within that community. Our system of welfare dependency does everything to keep it in that state.

But of course let's not forget that Muslims, who are supposedly renowned for their stable family background are completely over-represented in prison - by a factor of about 4 in the UK (they make up about 11-12% of the prison population). In France it's a staggering 50%.

I think a good starting point would be:

1. Let's admit that our immigration and asylum policy was a complete disaster not least because of failure to screen, which has meant we let in some very unpleasant people.

2. Let's admit that single parent families are as a general rule not a good thing for children and that we should
do everything we can to ensure stable families and good moral education in the school (emphasising right and wrong firmly from an early age).

3. Let's find new responses to juvenile crime which do NOT involve multiple wrist slapping. The Swiss for instance I believe have a system of keeping a child in prison for a week or month by themselves in a cell. It's not solitary confinement - there are adults about - but it is a serious punishment for a child. This sort of punishment should be applied early on in a criminal "career" before things escalate, probably after a couple of minor offences.

Austin Barry

Rod, the dining rooms of Islington, Hampstead and Notting Hill will be forever closed to you. But we, the Great Unwashed, salute you for mentioning the unmentionable.

David Ossitt

Shakassoc
"Mr R Seacole Liddle, if we are to use proper English it should be 'Afro-Caribbean', not 'African-Caribbean"

Is it not true; that Afro-Caribbean refers to a black man or woman from the Islands of the West Indies?

Whereas Rod Liddle; was I think, referring to those from either Africa or the Caribbean hence his African-Caribbean.

Joe Strummer

Aaah, the joys of cultural enrichment and diversity. Hopefully, not coming soon to any neighbourhood near you. Happy Winter Festival, everyone !

drakes drum

So WHY, as you correctly point out that " The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community". When more black people than white people are stopped by the police, does Trevor Phillips and his ilk shout 'FOUL'?

If a crime is committed by a black person is it right that police have to stop white people as well?

It is time politicians got serious.More white people suffer from racial attacks than blacks. (The figures from the Analysis of Racist Crimes of Violence England and Wales 2005. Office of National Statistics:-
Whites suffered 75,912 assaults.
Blacks.suffered 7.408 assaults.
Asians.suffered 28.634 assaults.
Jews. suffered 82 assaults.
Other suffered 10.446 assaults.

The majority are becoming the oppressed. It is time to speak up Politicians! Unless you want a backlash.

Shakassoc

daniel maris asks:

"Do you think it would be a good idea to bring into this country the descendants of the people you enslaved, flogged, worked to death, raped, denied any education, stole from, denied the vote, kept in poverty and generally abused?"

Let's be fair, Danny-boy. The question might be better phrased as:
"Do you think it would be a good idea to bring into this country the descendants of the people your ancestors enslaved, flogged, worked to death, raped, denied any education, stole from, denied the vote, kept in poverty and generally abused?"

Also the question could be modified to read, "Do you think it would be a good idea to bring into this country the descendants of the people your ancestors bought from their own people who had enslaved them for commercial gain..."

And maybe we could add, "...the descendants of people whom your ancestors rescued from slavery by the heroic, popular actions of people like Wilberforce..."

And possibly we might include, "...the descendants of those whom your ancestors rescued from slavery and conditions very similar to those experienced by the mass of people in these islands, and generally throughout the world at the time..."

Though none of these considerations mitigates the evils of slavery, if you don't modify the questions in this sort of way, then your reading of history is somewhat skewed, I suspect, in favour of the modish ignorance that prevails in these days of victim politics. Hope this isn't all too subtle for you. (Clue: read the words very carefully.)

Johhnyboy

Rod, me old mate. Well said. I was shocked to read the report in the link. Particularly the reference to Tinchy Stryder, of whom I had not heard until (last week) I was asked to fork out 15 quid for a 'concert' ticket to enable my youngest (16 yrs)to see him in Yeovil in February. At the time I had only half joked that he might be banged up by then.

Should I let him go? At 16 I was watching the likes of The Damned and the Sex Pistols... They all turned out to be nice boys in the end. What do you think?

seb

Edward McLoughlin

Where do you live? Do you live in a state where citizens are taught from childhood that they can and ought to do whatever they please and that, for some odd reason, the humiliating and often lethal consequences of this are to be blamed on other people? Do you live in a state where citizens are taught from childhood that that state's government is everyone's Mummy and Daddy? Do you live in a state where citizens are not considered to ever have the intellectual skills necessary to make up their minds about moral issues but must be spoonfed the correct opinions by their superiors? Do you live in a state where concepts of good and bad human behaviour are deemed to be 'relative' to the circumstances?

David Lindsay, whose comment prompted me, was writing about immigrants from the West Indies, many of whom were lucky enough to have been brought up under what is now considered an unfashionably rigid moral code rather than, as is the case with their grandchildren, in a smugly amoral country where, though there appear to be neither 'good' nor 'bad' people, the merely self-righteous have inherited the earth.

Mishka

My god, what a bunch of racists you all are. Gross.

Chris Stelling

Since when has someone from Nigeria been part of the Afro-Caribbean community?

Lupus Lungfish

Johhnyboy - I'm not sure that Sid Vicious turned out all that nice. Stabbing your girlfriend in the belly isn't very civil is it?- correct me if I'm wrong of course.

Liz

Wow. This is perhaps the most casually offensive, bigoted and fundamentally untrue piece of writing since Jan Moir decided to kill her career. To imply that the majority of young men from African/Carribbean backgrounds are criminals is quite simply racist, and horrific as the crime committed against this young woman is, that does not justify a slanderous attack on the majority of young black men!

Dick Griffin

It's a price worth paying to irritate the kind of stupid white proles who watch the x factor and microwave turkey twizzlers, besides goat curry sounds delicious. I don't mind if 'London is like the Wire', it's a far better TV program than Eastenders has ever been.

Sally Jones

Almost as bad as those niggahs Brady and Hindley or Fred and Rose West...oh hold on. Oh my god no - not white people committing violent crimes - how was that possible!!

James Wilton

Because of course, no-one would try and kill anyone if we were all white.

Mark

The only good thing about this article is that it's short. What is impressive is how you managed to be so offensive and wildly off the mark in so few words. Britain's multi-culturalism is what makes it beautiful. That these scumbags did something sickening and wrong is not in doubt. The colour of their skin or indeed their occupation is irrelevant, and should not be used as a way of whipping up anti-immigrant sentiment.

A young black man

You short-sighted ignorant idiot. Your journey to the dark side is complete... I pray for your redemption, but alas I feel your intelligence is withering at a rate too rapid to arrest.

Blanche Hunt

The colour of your skin doesn't make you a criminal, circumstances do. Maybe we need to ask ourselves why these statistics are so (if they are indeed accurate) and what we can do to change things rather than point and gasp every time a black person commits a crime. You are racist. Shame.

Mat M

I think white people are as capable of accepting cautions for domestic violence against their other halves aren't they Rod? Oh, and white people are also capable of creating single parent families by running off with the receptionist from work.

Nick

My what a quaint little racist circle-jerk this is. Can anyone join in?

Disgusted Seacole of Tunbridge Wells

The statistics are sadly true.

However, in the interests of balance I would just like to point out that it has been my good fortune to have known many fine, upstanding people of both African and Caribbean bakckgrounds - especially those who attend my multi-racial church.

Now, Rod - seeing that you're of the white Anglo-Saxon persuasion, how about apologising for all these scummy white chavs who keep deafening me on the bus with their mobile phone radios whilst their equally intellectually-challenged chavvie white girlfriends doss about all days making babies and watching Jeremy Kyle - all on my hard-earned taxes?

Sarah Leyton

This is just ignorant. And racist.

Disgusting.

rod liddle

Good god Jonnyboy, no mate, no. Have to have some discipline.

Good point for your lads today; less said about us the better.

Mishka - wait until we start on the russkies.

David

wow. i'm astonished by this sad, unfair, lowest-common denominator, ignorant, reactionary, cliched stereotyping of an entire race. i think the word for it is... racism. i really would expect more from the Spectator and will be very surprised if this doesn't turn into a Jan Moir situation. very sad.

Richard

Being wrong isn't edgy and daring - its just stupid. The whole Spectator has gone completely off the rails these days. Hope you all feel slightly ashamed of where you are going.

Ken Carlucci

This is incredible! How does Nelson let something as blatantly discriminatory as this get online? Have the editors of The Spectator all gone on Holidays? Congratulations on losing my subscription as of right now! I want nothing to do with this rag ever again!

Marcus Greenwood

wow. that's INSANELY racist

i thought the spectator was related to the conservative party, not the BNP

David Ossitt

Mishka

“My god, what a bunch of racists you all are. Gross.”

How dare you Madame; I have contributed to and read every post on the particular blog, how and in what way are any of them racist?

Come on spell it out; point the finger, name names, if you can.

Kevin McPartlan

Rod, I'd like to engage you in a sensible, unemotional, debate on the attitude you demonstrate here. I'd explain why the comments you make are as ill informed as they are offensive but on the evidence of the reasoning powers you demonstrate here I don't think you'd be able to deal with the long words. kevin.mcpartlan.gmail.com

Winston

What a cock. And I don't mean that in its complimentary sense.

rod seacole liddle

I'm really sorry; I didn't invent the police statistics. I wish they were otherwise. But they are not. The black community in London at least understands there is a problem and is trying to address it - you witless pseudo-liberals simply make it worse. "Circumstances" make people a criminal do they, Blanche Dubois? Exonerate Hitler then, you glib idiot.

And Mat; it was not for domestic violence or anything like it. As has been gone through on here countless times when sombody disagrees with an argument.

John

This article is based on a fundamental untruth. It is *completely* false to claim 'the overwhelming majority of street crime [etc] in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community'. Please read the national crime statistics, which, in fact, show that white people commit the majority of crime. But of course, that wouldn't fit with the racist prejudices of Liddle, or the vast majority of readers of this blog, now would it?

Buzz Killington

The [factually incorrect] article is bad enough but the comments underneath are truly terrifying. Like youtube but with correct spelling.

Lupus Lungfish

Oh dear, I think the National Union of Students have arrived on the scene.
'Britains multi-culturalism is what makes it beautiful'- that really is a good one Mark!.

L Smith

Maybe if we didn't want anything to do with other ethnicities in Britain, we shouldn't have gone & invaded and occupied countries containing those ethnic people?

O'Shea Jackson

This all seems a bit rich coming from someone who once punched his neighbour in an argument about football teams. Or perhaps the generally monocultural nature of football violence makes it OK. Perhaps Rod might like to ruminate on this the next time he feels like spouting the kind of bigotry many of us have always suspected lies just beneath the surface of the so-called educated classes

RMT

Oh dear Rod, are you a bit upset?

I don't blame ya, why the hell should you have to suffer, afterall it was your forefathers who enjoyed the luxury of being able to slave rape, oppress, make their fortune, live comfortably, industrialise this nation etc, not you...

Why should you have to suffer the chickens coming home to roost eh?

Why are you responsible for the sins of the fathers who set this whole thing up by colonising, subjugating and exploiting Africa and the Caribbean.

Why should Britain put up with the result of hundreds of years of racism and exploitation where young people no longer have respect for themselves, their elders or the world around them, where the only credible choice seem to be joining a street gang....

I mean you have done nothing to perpetuate the institutionalised racism that even now in 2009 characterises all young Black men as criminals and suggests that multiculturalism has given Britain no more than curried goat and rap music...oh no Rod, not you, you'd never be so ignorant would ya?

Fearless Frank

Blanche Hunt - The colour of your skin doesn't make you a criminal, circumstances do.
And, silly me,I'd always thought it was committing a crime that made you a criminal.
Liz (and others who make similar claims): To imply that the majority of young men from African/Carribbean backgrounds are criminals...
To say that most criminals are black is not the same as saying most black people are criminals.

By the way, was there one of those Twitter "outrage" alerts at abt 6pm?
Keep pushing the buttons, Rod!

C Ashwell

... "human filth"? This is the language of the brownshirts in 30s Germany.

Charlie Elliot

@drakes drum

according to those stats, blacks, and especially asians and "others" suffer way more assaults disproportionately. Remember 92% of the country is still white, for asians to suffer 30% of the total is astonishing.

Yossarian

Was so furious when I read the article. Racist to the enth degree. So pleased I kept on reading to see so many folk calling it as it is.

I wonder, is Rod Liddle a pen name for Nick Griffin?

Lupus Lungfish

Young Black Man- I don't think anybody around here is being ignorant. Its just an observation, the facts are that young black men are going off the rails. There are plenty of young white males who are just as bad but have you been to Harlesden lately?. The swaggering, threatening and to be honest frightening behaviour in some black areas of London reminds me of the New York Subway in the mid eighties.
Why don't you try and come up with a reasoned refute rather than chucking insults about?.

gary smith

Rod, you've lost the plot..since you ran away to Malaysia, you have been a c*n*...what happened out there?

Fifi

Your disgraceful hatemongering makes me feel sick

Where's the beef?

Blanche Hunt: "...The colour of your skin doesn't make you a criminal, circumstances do..."

Prove it.

Tickle Mearse

Youve all lost your sense of priority. Orient lost 3-2 to Swindon. Sad times.

Past caring.

If they had been given a £1.8m house & £175k in benefits like Bashir Aden, this might not have happened.

Being expected to work and provide for oneself is surely too much to ask from any immigrant family for at least 3 generations.
How can they be expected to intigrate with such high expectations?

We should particularly nourish the 2nd & 3rd generations by providing them luxury housing, cars and cash.
That way they won't feel so bad about missing out on what their real mother-lands had to offer. Let's try to heal by taking their minds away from their imagined glorious homelands by providing big screen tv's, X-box.

In fact wouldn't it make more sense to build up as many buildings, schools and community offices dedicated to them so they'd almost think they were in their imagined homeland?

Surely British children would be enriched by learning other languages rather than burdening the already stressed immigrants with another headache.

Maybe an immigrant tax on the so called indiginous population would help. 50% at source should do it. Redistributed wealth & land would also help them feel more welcome.
As for our institutions, all top posts should be job shared with all faiths and creeds, apart from Europeans/whites who only need one representative(preferably female).

Now if that doesn't work we'll just have to mandate our wives and daughters lie back and think of multi-cultural England.

Leyton Rocks

If Liddle had asked why this was, rather than leaving the ethnicity hanging there as the problem, things could have been interesting. Instead you allowed fear and loathing about black people appear reasonable in response to these crimes. 2009 has a totally different context to 50s, 60s, 70s et al. We can't go back to how people imagine it once was ... I'm not happy with violent crime in London, but I don't think racism is the solution

Lupus Lungfish

Lets all Google 'Rod Liddle' and come up with- he's a racist wife beater who loves a bit of soccer thuggery on a Saturday afternoon- then go down the Student Union and talk about global warming sexist rich pigs.

HairyNoddy

"Now, Rod - seeing that you're of the white Anglo-Saxon persuasion, how about apologising for all these scummy white chavs who keep deafening me on the bus with their mobile phone radios whilst their equally intellectually-challenged chavvie white girlfriends doss about all days making babies and watching Jeremy Kyle - all on my hard-earned taxes?"

Liberals - easy on the immoral, feckless, irresponsible.

Hard on the moral, hard working and responsible.

Rewarding failure with welfare and punishing the hard working with ridiculous taxes and criminalising the honest whilst letting scum walk free.

The white chav class is just as much a by product of liberal Britain as is the proliferation of ethnic thugs.

And then they have the gall to tar the whole of white British society with the evidence of their own failings.

One good thing about liberals is that they don't have many kids, whereas chavs do. I think chavs are more likely to fight successfully for this country than the liberal scum who have done so much to destroy it.

In2minds

Buzz Killington @ 7.48pm YouTube is the correct form, not youtube.

Mark

Yeah, that's right Lupus Lungfish, I must be a member of the NUS, because I enjoy the multi-cultural aspects of life in Britain. That's the best you can come up with. Is it supposed to be an insult? I am not a student, merely a right-thinking person who refuses to be hood-winked by scaremongering journalists into thinking that, in the words of Bill Hicks, "you're immediately gonna be raped by some crack-addicted, AIDS-infected pitbull" the second you leave your house. I say again, I am proud to live in the multi-cultural nation Britain is today.

seb

Dear Rod
Sorry for referring to you as 'Ron' earlier. No hard feelings?
Seb

Peter from Maidstone

Looking on Twitter there was indeed a lot of anti-Rod Liddle activity a few hours ago. And some of the things these caring, liberal people were suggesting should happen to him were not very nice at all.

A. MacAulay

"Do you think it would be a good idea to bring into this country the descendants of the people you enslaved, flogged, worked to death, raped, denied any education, stole from, denied the vote, kept in poverty and generally abused?"
then we might have had pause to wonder and enquired a bit more about exactly who it was we were letting in."

Are you referring to the Irish, D. Maris?

Victoria Lill

This is digustingly ractist. I am appauled that this has been published. I seriously hope a public backlash follows

Hysteria

Fearlerss Frank - thanks for that post - I was wandering what the best form of reply was but I think you nailed it.

I was also trying to think where all the contrary posts came from - hadn't considered a Twitter alert - interesting observation.

Ken

Well done Mr Liddle.

You properly stirred up the Islamic defendi last week, the climatic dogmatists a little later, the waycism frothers today and now best of all, the Twits.

Brace yourself a Twatterflashmob is hyper-inflating as this is posted.

Doom Monger

I'm waiting for Darcus Howe and Wilhelm to have a quiet discussion!

Zorro

It's always amusing to see all the knee jerking from the likes of Liz (6:28)....

D+ for comprehension by the way....'The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community.'....

Right, do you get it? Not every black person is a criminal, and neither Rod nor anyone else has implied it....

What is truly disgusting is that you could claim that any supposed claim to say this is as 'horrific as the crime committed against this young woman'. Yes, that is what YOU said!

But again oh so typical of D+ lightweights.

Ken

http://twitter.com/search?q=liddle

Oops ... they love you not.

Lupus Lungfish

Mark- where do you live exactly?. If you think mass immigration has been some great boon then I think you are mistaken. It entirely depends upon your personal experiences doesn't it?- anyway I happen to be a Bill Hicks fan so I can't insult you- do you like Tintin?
Anyway Mark I can assure you there are no racists around here, and if there were I would not give a damn as I firmly believe people can say what they want. I have a particular dislike for ranting Stalinist idiots who proclaim their wisdom and judgement on poor dumb idiots like me.

Spelling Police

Victoria - indeed - I am appalled by the appalling spelling though.

Lupus Lungfish

Those students don't seem to have the staying power of Celtic fans. We've bred a generation of namby pamby pathetic self important little ponces. Rod, you bang on about the sixties- look what it has produced- a bunch of pathetic Britain hating Tristrams and Tabathas- well done for that mate. Take your coin and be damned!- humbug you northern git

Jaz

What an utterly shameful, hate-filled article. Rod Liddle has clearly spiritually if not actually, joined the ranks of the BNP. As for the display of grotesque ignorance from so many of the comments, it gives the lie to the claim that the spectator has an intelligent readership

Individual Person Of Non Secole Origin

Just wondered if this was more likely to appear on your blog than Jock Massies.

"Personally, I prefer to see people as individuals"

So do I, but a disproportionate percentage of non white individuals are to be found on the DNA data base. Why is this?

The simple fact Alex is, more people are inclined to agree with Rod than agree with you.

rod liddle

As I've just posted on the idiot Alex Massie's blog; it is not blackness per se which is the problem, but a cultural problem with young black males. I do not remotely see how that can be challenged: it is accepted by, among others, the EHRC. It does not mean - NUS people - that white folks commit no crime, that all black people commit crime, or that black people commit crime for genetic reasons. It means - as Daniel Maris pointed out - that we have a disproportionate problem in our large cities with one section of the population which can be defined by its age, gender and race.

And I really don;t see a problem with the phrase human filth.

Roy

The sad part of all this is how it was all foretold by myriads of people at the start of the influx. Also, we should have taken more note of how things were working out in America. This of course was the fault of the imbecile Americans, the superior Brits would never have all the trouble they have. Not only do we have as much trouble but there is less room for all to move over! Any scholarly work done on this subject is quickly brushed under the mat and denied any knowledge of by the dominant multi-cults. Thus the problem can only get worse, giving a certainty to one growth industry, crime & punishment.

heckmonwyke

And i thoght you were a leftie its about 30yrs to late but thanks for speaking out.And saying something that all of us who have to live in the real world know.But its done and theres know going back so bye bye britain somewhere anywhere?beckons

Boudica Smith

So true about the perpertrators of crime but no-one talks about it.

Jez

No offence pal but you help create this nightmare.

A bit tough but true.

James C

Excellent article Rod.

Reading the comments reminds me of the AGW debate. "Multiculturalism" is another socialists inspired religion.

daniel maris

Some people might want to go back to the fifties: smog, freezing cold bedrooms, chilblains, deathly boredom of Sundays, and holidays in cramped boarding houses - so that they can get the low crime and the sense of community.

Well we are where we are. Let's look to the future. If we are going to make some real progress now - in terms of cultural as opposed to material outcomes - we need to recognise where we have gone seriously wrong.

There has to be an end to mass immigration and politically correct stifling of debate. We need to tackle welfare dependency, juvenile crime and education.

I don't think Rod is being racist. I think he's sick of the PC dogma which is preventing us facing reality and starting to make progress with finding solutions to some of our current problems.

Fergus Pickering

What exactly IS a racist? Define please. Similarly, what is a racist remark? I know Desdemona is not a real person, but wouldn't she have done better to have followed her father's advice and married a Venetian? Does that make Othello a racist play? It might. Does it?

Mark Newby

What a racist article

philruts

Rod Liddle is pretty much a bell-end.
Why on Earth has this tripe been published?
xx

Eggy Wilson

Let's hope this horrible racism marks the end of Liddle's career. And not before time.

Andy

Spot on Rod, and the really sick thing is that this multi-cultural society was deliberately foisted on us covertly by the Labour government and the disciples of the Frankfurt School, the Fabian Society, Common Purpose, and all the other crypto-Marxist groups that are busy destroying British society, it's structures and traditions from within.

I'm glad to see that increasing numbers of peple are waking up to what's going on.

simone

Rod it would appear that you've irked a truckload of white middle class students.

Addison

Rod

Are you considering white flight ?

Where's the beef?

"...Why on Earth has this tripe been published?..."

Funny that philruts; I was just thinking the same thing about your predictably vaccuous comment.

Simon Stephenson

rod liddle : 12.40am

"it is not blackness per se which is the problem, but a cultural problem with young black males

I appreciate this, but what did you really expect to provoke by juxtaposing this observation with a specific example of inhumanity? A wide-ranging discussion about the cultural problem? Or the cementing of existing prejudices against the black community?

Ludlow Spinks

I doubt this comment will appear as my previous - very mild - one didn't either, but I'll try.

Of course this is racism. It's a big fat lie about a social group, based on their race. It's incitement to racial hatred, it's propaganda, and it's absolute tripe.

Rod Liddle is a liar, a racist and a man with a caution for domestic violence.

What a great guy to be lecturing about morality.

But hey, it's just Socialist conspiracy to take issue with the fact that his article is factually incorrect, right?

Oh, you've done so on the Spectator site already.

And Liddle's response doesn't even answer Massie's point about his factual inaccuracies, just huffs and puffs and whimpers about misrepresentation. Unbelievable.

Harry Calder

At least it's good to see Rod clarify in a subsequent post that "it is not blackness per se which is the problem, but a cultural problem with young black males". Yes, I'd go along with that - although "some young black males" or even "a disproportionate number of young black males" would have been preferrable to a blanket statement that implies that the problem is with *all* black males.

But what a shame that such a clarification was required in the first place. In the original article, a dubious statistic is quoted out of context (the kind of thing Rod would no doubt denigrate in other areas of discussion) to denigrate an entire people, who are, for good measure, referred to as "human filth". Not very pleasant, to put it mildly. Sorry to see Rod descend to this level.

Ludlow Spinks

Well, colour me surprised, it got published.

Oh, and just to spell out WHY it's racist for the ninnies who are too busy blurting out "STUDENT!" and "SOCIALIST!" to stop and think:

The cheap references to goat curry and rap music make it very clear that Liddle is, no pun intended, tarring the entire black community with the same brush.

Of course, it's very possible he doesn't even believe a word he's saying - we all know he is a raddled old hack who'll say anything for a few pieces of silver.

Rod Liddle is a TROLLUMNIST. http://newmatilda.com/2009/11/02/if-i-make-you-angry-enough-maybe-youll-keep-reading

g1lgam3sh

Chris Rock makes a point

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui6-Wc0PDc4

zack

Its about time the conspiracy of silence on this issue was ended.

Well done Rod.

rod seacole liddle

Ludlow - your initial post failed because you made a mistake in sending it. There's no censorship here, despite the inaccurate abuse you pour on my head.

What I said was not racist; it never occurs to me that crime is a consequence of genetic origins - that would be both ludicrous and foul. That's why, in the initial post, I used the word "multi-cultural", not "multi-racial". There is not slightest crime problem with young women from African- Caribbean backgrounds - indeed, they easily outperform whites in terms of jobs, educational achievment, income etc.
I've written earlier blogs about this, which was why I felt it unnecessary to explain further here. That's where, incidentally, I also quantified those figures I alluded to in this blog.

But you white liberals don't have a clue, do you? Not a scooby. You jump up and howl, demand prosecutions and sackings, when people say stuff which, in your stunted political lexicon, appears transgressive. You are blind to the realities which, if addressed, might enable to live a lot more happily with one another.

R Richards

Well said Rod about time someone in the MSM spoke up, pity It as taken so long.

Fearless Frank

Nowhere on Rod's original post does he finger the entire black community, nor does he say that all black males are criminals.
The curious misperception is purely in the eyes of his critics.
The expression human filth I took to apply, aptly enough, to the two scumbags who tried to kill this girl.
I wonder if the girl herself is black? The black community has more reason than most to be be angry when the "gangsta" cult produces real violence - they're usually its first victims.

Peter from Maidstone

Harry Calder, are you disputing the statistic which says...

The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community.

Do you have other figures? Are you able to show that these are disputed figures? Or do you think that people are not able to distinguish between the two ideas..

i. The overwhelming majority of street crime in London is perpetrated by young black men.

ii. Not all young black men in London perpetrate street crime.

During the war it would have been possible to say with statistical honesty that the overwhelming majority of Nazis were Germans. But it have also been possible to say that not all Germans were Nazis. The one fact does not deny the other, in either case.

This is actually fairly simple statistics, and it does not need a campaign of Twitter outrage.

The majority of Anglicans may be older women, but that does not mean the majority of older women are Anglicans.

The majority of football fans may be men, but that does not mean that the majority of men are football fans.

This is all fairly straightforward and does not need pointing out to most people.

Most violent street crime in London is perpetrated by young black men does not mean - nor can I think that it is being said (except in your head) - that most young black men in London are violent criminals.

Old Holborn

"All in all, if "young men from the African-Caribbean community" (half of all children with one Afro-Caribbean parent now have one white parent, anyway) commit "the overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London", then there is something about Britain, or probably about London specifically, that has had that effect on them."

Ken Livingstone and the Islington Chatterati for a start

White, middle class, and represented by no-one

It's racist! It's racist, etc, etc.

So shrill a million outraged Guardian readers.

Funny, your great leader contributed towards all this by saying 'British jobs for British workers'.

Where were you all then?

L S

I think you will find that it's more to do with the violent cesspit called 'London' frequented by vile peoiple called 'Londoners' - either born or imported.

In this particular North Western haven of multiculturalism, we don't have such problems. maybe Rod needs to get out a bit more and stop thinking that the world revolves around a rather dirty, unfriendly pit in the South West. Or perhaps invite a few more outsiders in to make it a more friendly place. It desperately needs them.

Baron Pipin II

In the immortal words of Mrs. Robinson ‘why don’t people listen?’ For what I care, Rod’ contention about the crime-single ethnicity group can be cast in stone and shouted from the rooftops by Trevor Philips till the cows come home - the post missed the core of what needs addressing – CRIME per se. You hear? Crime as such. Alex’s high minded response failed to advance the solution either, it completely ignored it.

Listen to Edmund Burke’s take on societal cohesion.

‘Society cannot exist unless a controlling power upon will and appetite be placed somewhere, and the less of it there is within, the more there must be without’.

And now ponder what has happened to the institutions that installed the ‘within’ morale codes. Heterosexual families? In irrevocable decline what with the new epicurean tastes of both sexes; Schools? Cannot teach even the three Rs. Church? Does the religious hierarchy dare contradict the excesses in our behaviour? The few voluntary organisations that remain are hard put to compete with the new tributaries for installing the contemporary moral codes into the brains of the young – the Internet, the TV pap, the gaming industry, and most of all the ‘camaraderie of the street’ with easy drugs, and even easier sex.

Is there more of the controlling power from without then? Nope. Just the opposite. The barrier to entry into crime has been lowered again and again. The punishment for murder, the most heinous capital crime, has come down to the average of just over nine years spent inside. The police are filling forms, and the magistrates slapping the wrists, no more.

We will not advance the fight against crime much, which is what the case of these two scums highlights, by targeting a single ethnic group alone. Scums of any colour are at it, too.

Unless and until we either restore the implanting qualities of the former institutions or find a substitute, we have to rely on curtailing the destructive will and evil appetite from without. Across the board. Only if we can restore real punishment into the criminal justice system will crime subside. Across the board.

Diane Abbott MP

"As I've just posted on the idiot Alex Massie's blog; it is not blackness per se which is the problem, but a cultural problem with young black males."

Rod Liddle is being disingenuous with the above response. If it is not blackness per se that is the problem why mention the race of the young men at all?
It is obviously statistically false to say that the "overwhelming majority" of the crimes listed by Rod are committed by young black men.
Rod Liddle is not stupid. So he could have checked his facts. So the interesting thing is why he chose to post something which, if you chose another set of hysterical racial stereotypes and substituted Jew for Afro-Caribbean, would not have been out of place in a speech by Oswald Mosley?
Is it just a bid for attention? We have all got so used to Rod Liddle's low level racism that it has lost the power to shock. Or are we really seeing a general descent into the sort of racism that we have not seen in this country for generations? Hopefully it is just the former

the griot

Of course, this will always be true as long as you conveniently count all half-White, half-Black persons as Black. If you actually do some work and did deeper, you'll find the problem is much more nuanced than you suggest. But, then again, nuance and bigotry don't go hand-in-hand do they?

rhory fraser

Yes, Mr Right On from Maidstone, but a massively higher proportion of young black men than young white ARE violent criminals.

Nobody is saying that ALL young black men are criminals

Ludlow Spinks

Oh and who's demanding prosecutions and sackings? I don't see anyone doing that. I'm certainly not. You should be mocked and pilloried mercilessly like the buffoon you are, but sacked? PROSECUTED? Pffff, don't imagine you are that important. More proof of your immersion in pure unadulterated bullshit. Either you are suffering paranoid delusions or - more likely - just talking balls.

Jim B

Yup, we're all going to hell in a handcart. Time to end this disasterous multicultural experiment for good. What we need is a stronger government, one that's prepared to bring back the birch, hanging and compulsory repatriation, etc etc. We all know it's the only solution but will the liberals and jews that control the media let you say so, will they hell, etc etc.

Seriously Rod, you've always been a buffoon but now you really have lost it. Please stop poisoning the world with your toxic racist drivel.

David Clive

Rod has really put the fox in the chicken coop. Let us in that case look at modern day Jamaica. Independent, not under imperialist rule, no ruling white elite, so none of the usual liberal excuses. It has a population just short of 3 million people. and a casual Google tells us "In 2005, Jamaica had 1,674 murders for a murder rate of 64.10 per 100,000 people; that year Jamaica had the highest murder rate in the world."

In the UK with a population of 60 million this would equate to 33,480 murders a year. The current murder rate in the UK is about 800.

Discuss.

Ludlow Spinks

Oh and finally - can we stop this "it's all in your head" nonsense, please folks. We're not so naive that we don't understand dog-whistle politics, surely?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dog-whistle_politics

The Truth Hurts, but not when it's racist

The irony with all these "it's racist" people is that this outrage would never have occured if this piece was aimed at another race... say the Chinese (loads of them selling DVDs for what... a chinese takeaway?) or Asians (terrorism, the Spread of Islam for... kebabs??)... for some inherent reason, probably white guilt leftover from the Slavery days, we are less racist towards blacks than other races.

Now that is racism.

rod liddle

Diane - do you not think there is a problem which is defined by race, gender and age? If not, why send your kid to a private school? What were the quotes at the time, you hypocrite?

This is only a racial issue of you choose to make it one, Diane. It is an issue of culture. Now, what was it you said about this when the storm brewed about your choice of school?

steve

You squalid little man Liddle. This is lazy worthless scrawl pandering to the Daily Mail knuckle draggers.
You're sunk beyond trace and anything else you say no matter how reasonable-sounding is now totally suspect.
Get run over or something equally fitting.

Augustus

"Charming, wide-grinning piccaninnies"(?)

I don't think so!

Ludlow Spinks

Hmm, another of my posts failed to appear.

The central implication Rod makes, underlined by his sarky headline, is that violent acts like the crime that has been in the news today are directly caused by "multi-cultural Britain". Not multiculturalISM, not the failure of integration, but by the very presence of multiple cultures in Britain.

To underline this fact, he makes his cheap "goat curry" jibe, talking about Jamaican cookery in reference to a criminal of Nigerian origin, making it absolutely clear how sweeping his "judgement" is.

His whole thesis, as per usual, is cast iron balls. Ill-informed, hysterical, viciously bigoted balls.

Liam

The only people left who haven't yet seen through the myth of multi-culturalism and don't realise the awfulness of it's reality have either not experienced it personally, or are seriously brain-damaged.

Just another struggling UK taxpayer

When the doo doo inevitably hits the fan eventually, it would be nice to chase some of these people up if they are still alive for an apology or to re quote their current comments at them and see if they still agree.

History will not be kind to our generations and the idle complacency we fostered.

Nothing lasts forever....

J Barker

Truth = Racism. I don't think it should be this way. So I must be a racist. Do any of the racist right wing types who read the Spec think that the politicisation of race by the Left is a short term way of intimidating & labeling opposition to socialism. How long will our nation continue to be be cowed by the words racist & racism? How has this been allowed to happen?
Mass immigration has fragmented our nation & we are frightened to speak out. You couldn't make it up. Do think the Shires are safe? Check the immigrants birth rate. Middle Englanders, Do you think you are safe from being culturally enriched?

David

The problem with this country, and there is a problem with this country, is people like you. Liddle: if you don't like it, leave. We won't mind.

Alex Bowles

This is an attempt to be provocative that has ended up being just offensive. It is simply not true that the "overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community".

A glance at the comments confirms that this kind of bigotry doesn't stir up useful debate, but just stimulates the bottom-feeders.

Dermot

If you're not attacking African-Carribeans per se, Rod, your penultimate sentence does a good, glib, disparaging job of giving the impression you are.

And you're being massively disingenuous in your replies. Shame.

rod liddle

Oh, Alex. Check the figures. The figures aren't MY fault. I wish they weren't true.

Alex

Such sloppy journalism Rod, I'm surprised it gets published. Hey, why not bring back the SUS laws and massively over-police black communities while we're at it, then act surprised when we find lots of crime there. Oh, that's right, we have/do already. Can you imagine how much more crime would be discovered if the police devoted the same resources to policing the so-called 'law abiding majority' as they do policing specific minorities? Have you considered that such over-policing might also be a cause of violence? Further, I don't see any numbers (or a source) attached to your "facts" - hast thou simply been reading the Daily Mail too much?

Ludlow Spinks

Oh yes, and the other part of my post that failed to appear:

The problem here is with young men of our underclasses. In London a good deal of them are black or mixed-race, yes; such is the makeup of London's underclasses - but go to Glasgow or Doncaster or Cardiff or Plymouth by night and you've got a very good chance of getting stabbed or robbed by a white young man. Do you blame multi-cultural Britain for that, too?

Baron

David, steve, philrurts and co:

Is the only ability your brain’s capable of labelling? Perhaps you should apply for a job that requires sticking labels on things. Trust me, it may greatly ease your anxiety, and occupy your grey cells to the full.

Alic

Seven of my friends have been mugged in London in the last 5 years.

Friends; vary. One is black; rest are white or asian females, one white male, all in their early thirties. Every single one was mugged by a black youth or youths, wearing hoodies... All were robbed; two were violently assaulted, one was threatened with a knife.

Does stating that fact make me racist? No. Rod is making a point about some facts. Try debating them. Debating facts is not racist.

Ludlow Spinks

The tragic thing - aside from the fact that this bilge got published in a supposedly mainstream organ to begin with - is that the debate about the culture and alienation of young men and young black men in particular is already well-advanced, both in the liberal press and "on the ground" in the public and voluntary sectors. The problems of family structures and the lack thereof, of drug prohibition pushing people into contact with organised crime frameworks, of the bigotry of low expectations, of lack of discipline in schools, and yes, of gang culture and the promotion of violence in musical lyrics are all being discussed and addressed by people with genuine experience, knowledge and engagement with the complex issues involved.

Yet racist blowhards and dinner party bores on the extreme right like our man Rod here inist on leaping in with both feet suggesting that this is the subject that people DARE NOT DISCUSS because of the LIBERAL CONSPIRACY and REVERSE RACISM.

It's balls. The premise of Rod's argument is balls and his argument is balls. Nasty, shrivelled useless little balls at that.

Please God don't let this be taken seriously as journalism or as politics by anyone but the loopy headbangers of the BNP. It's a really, really bad joke.

Baron

Rod, stop and think for a while, please, and lay off the booze. If by some miracle we were to eliminate crime in this predominantly London based ethnic group, would crime vanish altogether? Keep in mind that this country is somewhat larger than bloody London. The demon of racism has sidetracked us all, it blinds us to the point that we are missing the bigger picture.

The group you singled out happens to be a part of the society, like it or not. We have to look for solutions that embrace everyone who commits crime, whatever their culture, skin colour, religion or whatever.

Alex @ 4.51:

SUS laws and over-policing would do bugger all either in predominantly black or ‘law abiding majority’ areas if those caught, pushed through the due process, and found guilty were to get a slap on the wrist and let go.

Our jails are full of people who shouldn’t be there, but those who should rot so that they feel punished rather than angered are let out in laughably short time.

Ludlow Spinks

No, Alic, you are wrong.

Nobody disputes that in London young black men are disproportionately involved in criminal activities. However to say that they commit the "overwhelming majority" of the crimes in question is a lie, and to simply suggest that the fact of Britain being a multicultral nation is the root cause of the situation is an insane leap of non-logic.

Rod, here are the figures, which ones in particular are you referring to?

http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/stats-race-criminal-justice-system-07-08-revised.pdf

Steve

Well said Rod

Peter Farrington

Yes, Mr Right On from Maidstone, but a massively higher proportion of young black men than young white ARE violent criminals.

Nobody is saying that ALL young black men are criminals

Rhory Fraser, you miss my point entirely. There are plenty here who ARE saying that Rod is implicating all black people in crime. My point, as you also state while misunderstanding, is that it is possible to say most crime is perpetrated by one group without saying that all members of that group perpetrate crime.

Leo McKinstry

All those attacking Rod for his supposed prejudice should take note of these words from the Reverend Jesse Jackson, delivered in Chicago in 1993 at a summit on street crime: "There is nothing more painful to me at this stage in my life than to walk down the street and hear footsteps and start thinking about robbery. Then look round and see somebody white and feel relieved." I suppose Jesse Jackson is another vicious racist.

Peter from Maidstone

I note this paper here...

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1143202

is an academic research paper saying..

we find that the higher is the density of the ethnic population in a given borough, the higher is the crime rate.

There may be a variety of reasons for this, but denying the correlation seems likely to cause and have caused many more problems.

We need to face the facts and ask 'Why?'.

rod liddle

Ludlow - I've quoted the figures here before; certainly for gun crime, knife crime and street crime tghe figures do show what could be called an overwhelming majority, espeically when you consider that the age, gender and racial profile would constitute only about 4 per cent of the total population.

It's true too of course that black people are disproportionately the greater victims of, particularly, gun crime. But I don;t see how this makes it better.

paul

I think some people are getting carried away with some of the comments. Rod not being racist he is pointing out a cultural problem found in some london boroughs.
I think if we apply the method of constants and variables we will see what the problem is people from different cultures come to this country from law abiding societies and within a couple of generations a criminal life style becomes a norm to many, as it is indeed, with large sections of the indigenous population in many of the major urban areas.

We now have many variables drawn from around the globe and the one constant is the laisse- faire culture we have pursued in this Country.

Rod adopted fairy inflammable language but at least it’s started a debate. Just howling down some one as a racist is not the type of discussion we need and, I read his essays for a long time now and can state with fair certainty he is not a racist.

Ludlow Spinks

Peter, Leo, you are idiots.

Pure strawman nonsense. Nobody is denying the problem of young black men being overly prone to criminality. Nobody.

What people take issue with is the other implications and inaccuracies of Rod's delightful little screed.

Peter from Maidstone

Ludlow Spinks, there are a variety of useful charts which illustrate Rod's point.

Table 6.3 shows those indicted to stand trial for all offences (including non-violent) in the Metropolitan area:

White - 35%
Black and Asian - 42%

Table 7.1 shows the mix of criminals that Youth Offending teams are working with.

For Violence Against the Person offences the statistics are (again in the Metropolitan area):

White - 43%
Mixed, Black and Asian - 51%

And table 5.4b shows ethnicity for various crimes. For Violence Against the Person, Sexual Offences and Robbery the break down is:

White - 31752 + 2472 + 3375 = 37599 offences
Black and Asian - 28590 + 2788 + 8606 = 39984 offences

In the case of Robbery the statistics are most shocking as they show 3375 to 8606 arrests.

The ethnic breakdown of the Metropolitan area is White - 69.4%, Black, Asian and Mixes - 26.3%

And the figures given in the document from the Ministry of Justice are skewed to some extent since they include many areas where ethnic diversity is lower, and crime rates are lower.

Joe

The rabid and sustained attacks on Rod Liddle simply because he dared to challenge the tyrannical orthodoxy of multi-culturalism shows how frightened his opponents are.

The times they are a (finally) changin!

Verity

Ludlow Spinks, do you know who I feel prejudiced against? People who write "But hey ..." as a lazy means of dismissing someone else's argument. You got it off Frasier if memory serves, and it was quite effective for the first five years or so. Now it just sounds smug and so terribly, terribly dated. Could you people - and it's always the lefties who use it - find a new dismissive catch phrase, please? I feel so offended by this one.

Ludlow Spinks

And Paul, you're once again repeating the fallacy that Rod is "pointing out a problem" that is somehow hidden or supresses.

This is utterly untrue. The problem is on the national and local agenda already. All Rod is doing is adding hysteria, nasty insinuation and outright untruth to the existing debate, boiling the whole issue down to race and immigration. He's pointing nothing out that is not known, offering no insight nor analysis, just blowing with all his pathetic might on that dinky little dogwhistle of his to get the scared and ignorant all het up.

Verity

And Ludlow Spinks, do stop addressing us as "folks". It is so patronising, dear boy.

rod liddle

Ludlow:

"Of course this is racism. It's a big fat lie about a social group, based on their race. It's incitement to racial hatred, it's propaganda, and it's absolute tripe. "

A few hours later.......

"Nobody is denying the problem of young black men being overly prone to criminality. Nobody."

Are you being treated for this apparent schizophrenia, you dingbat?

And what inaccuracies are there in my initial blog?

That's all I'm saying. There's a problem with young black males and certain sorts (not all sorts, as you put it) of criminality. And it would be better if we could do something about it rather than pretend - as you did at first - that it doesn't exist.

Nicki

Okay, I think Charlotte Gore dismembers the statistics behind your assumption best. You are statistically wrong. The majority of crime committed in London is by white men.

It's so depressing when apparently educated people spout racist cr*p without statistics.

http://charlottegore.com/2009/12/05/rod-liddle-has-shit-for-brains.html

Tom Pride

“Ludlow Spinks
December 6th, 2009 11:30am
I doubt this comment will appear as my previous - very mild - one didn't either, but I'll try.

Of course this is racism. It's a big fat lie about a social group, based on their race. It's incitement to racial hatred, it's propaganda, and it's absolute tripe.

Rod Liddle is a liar, a racist and a man with a caution for domestic violence.

What a great guy to be lecturing about morality.

But hey, it's just Socialist conspiracy to take issue with the fact that his article is factually incorrect, right?

Oh, you've done so on the Spectator site already.

And Liddle's response doesn't even answer Massie's point about his factual inaccuracies, just huffs and puffs and whimpers about misrepresentation. Unbelievable.”

* * * *

“Ludlow Spinks
December 6th, 2009 7:45pm
And Paul, you're once again repeating the fallacy that Rod is "pointing out a problem" that is somehow hidden or supresses.

This is utterly untrue. The problem is on the national and local agenda already. All Rod is doing is adding hysteria, nasty insinuation and outright untruth to the existing debate, boiling the whole issue down to race and immigration. He's pointing nothing out that is not known, offering no insight nor analysis, just blowing with all his pathetic might on that dinky little dogwhistle of his to get the scared and ignorant all het up.”

* * * *

There does seem to be some movement here from total denial of any issue to acceptance of the recognition of a problem which is already being considered – by the right people in the right way. The tone is improving too.

Could you tell us what the cause of the problem is considered to be and what measures are being considered to improve the situation?

Florence of Arabia

Ludlow Spinks - Yet another trite Americanism: "All het up". Strange how the lefties, who loathe the United States with all their hearts, have such a passion for American usage.

Peter from Maidstone

Nicki, I don't see that Charlotte Gore demolishes Rod's blog at all, and nor do the commentators on her blog.

Rod did not say that most crime in London was perpetrated by Black and Asian people, but that most street crime is. And the governments own figures show that is true.

Why would you want to deny this? What is your own agenda?

Richard

Nice to know that Diane Abbott reads the Speccie.

A question for her: was the recent murder of Michael McCarthy a 'racist' murder?

See the Hackney Gazette for details.

I use teletext to estimate the percentage of London murders committed by 'minorities'.

I don't know the exact figure but indigenous Brits are responsible for a paltry 10% max.

dandy james

'rap' music is not from the caribbean you stupid prick. .. as for the majority of street crime in crime in london being carried out by men from the african carribean community.. well your just wrong. its that simple. who the hell are you and why did you write this ignorant , racist and hate filled little rant?

Chris Gilfoy

Oh my god. I'm genuinely shocked by both this post and these comments. It's like something from the seventies. I pity each and every one of you bigoted scum.

Tom Pride

Ludlow Spinks

I am sorry. I was not copying Rod’s comment at 8:17. The delay twixt posting and appearing meant I had not read that comment before making mine.

I would still be grateful to know what the causes and proposed remedies to the problems (which you acknowledge) are.

I do believe that sometimes in life it is best not to shine too focused a light on an issue but it is sensible to allow a discreet fudge or turn a partially blind eye. This issue, as others above have suggested, is so potentially divisive and socially damaging that discretion and self-censorship is required.

That is a valid argument. The problem I have is that the hostile, emotional, and unfortunately just plain nasty reactions I have read above, arise not because individuals belonging to the ethnicity concerned have been slighted and hurt and have responded accordingly but because a tenant of what some consider to be a self-evident, unquestionable, fact – the inherent benefits of “multi-culturism” (please do not confuse this with “multi-racial”) – have in fact been questioned and even considered to be of negative rather than positive value to our society.

I know that a multicultural society makes us more diverse – that is a fact. But, please, what does that mean and what are the actual concrete benefits? I think it was Jack Straw who mention Chicken Tikka Masala before Rod mentioned Goat Curry. Is that really the only benefit - ethnic food?

Leon

One of the horrific realities faced by any genuine social commentator in this grotesquely politically correct age is that reality and facts mean little to so many.

Merely presenting the facts about immigration and crime will certainly be met with cries of "racist". It's quite scary to think that many people would rather deny facts in order to maintain their fanatical belief in the glory of multi-culturalism.

Foaming at the mouth of Tunbridge Wells

Which countries have the worst rates of assault per capita in the world?

Courtesy of Nationmaster, the top five are South Africa, Montserrat, Mauritius, Seychelles and Zimbabwe.

Discuss.

Marbury

I doubt very much that Rod is racist. I don't know him but I suspect he's a fundamentally open-minded man who in real life would treat people equally regardless of the colour of their skin. But he's a lazy journalist, who - like Jan Moir - blunders into controversy by writing thoughtlessly, expressing himself clumsily, and then feeling he has to defend whatever corner he's accidentally written himself into. For better and for worse, he's hardly Enoch Powell.

We still haven't seen the statistics that support the main contention in this post. We never will, of course, because it's wildly off the mark. And whatever sensible point Rod was trying to make has got lost in the subsequent din.

To all the people expressing loathing of the man, I say calm down, and reflect that he's probably there before you.

My, what an intelligent "heated debate" this has provoked. Champagne for the brain!

Mongrel

Glasgow has twice the homicide rate of London. This single fact rather demolishes the article.
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/12/13133031/30384

Mr Liddle may be better employed re-editing the Turner Diaries.

R.N. Quayle

Liddle highlights the criminality
of young Afro Caribbean males.

NOT African males.

NOT Asian males.

Therefore he demonstrably
ain´t racist.

Ludlow Spinks

Hmmm. Some interesting suggestions going on from people who want to avoid the main issue...

Tom Pride - at what point did I deny there was any issue?

And Florence, why are you suggesting that I hate America?

Jeez, you people are something else. But hey, I guess we shouldn't expect bigots to be bright!

Helena

Quote: "The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, etc. is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community...etc."

hmmm, interesting. And of course the ever superior indigenous population of Britain makes these young men look like angels by producing all the notorious serial killers like Messrs. Shipman, West, Sutcliffe, etc. etc.

Let's hope these young "African-Caribbean" men do not integrate too much lest they learn the ways of the natives.

Tutaona

Young black people are also the highest proportion of victims of crime. Why isn't that ever addressed?

The problem with whites who attempt to initiate an 'open discussion' about racial issues is that they lack the balls to face up to their complicity in the propagation of an ideology that their dead ancestors introduced.

Verity

Tom Pride, no, no, no, no! If you want to hang onto he coattails of American TV comedies, please try to stay current. "But hey" is dated, dated, dated.

Old.

Please try to find fresh American slang as you are so addicted to it.

jackie

Watched Pollyanna on saturday morning, a real feel good film.

Mr Liddle I challenge you, I dare you to look for the good in Afro-Caribbean boys. As a mother of two such boys myself I assure you, you'll find overwhelmingly the MAJORITY are brilliant and well mannered. Perhaps you have not come across them because they are not roaming the streets but engaged in positive activities.

How easy and lazy of you to dwell on the bad MINORITY - that every culture has.

The figures on black crime and convictions speak for themselves but all I ask of you is to exercise a little balance and be more informative if you ever comment on this issue again.

Glenn

I live in Leicester, which is proportionally much more ethnically diverse than London. Even amongst the large and very poor Somalian population the crime rates are pretty low. I think that the problem with London is a rubbish police force, extreme poverty, drugs and a weird festering pseudo liberalism that disputes racism by ignoring it. Instead of banging on about how multi cultural you are, deal with crime area by area. High crime areas should have a greater police presence.
What's also needed is jobs that people can actually do, rather than pretending that incompetent teachers can get disinterested kids up to university standards. Britain has social problems because we have shifted so many unskilled jobs abroad. The crime rate would fall if people had more money in their pockets and other things to do.

Malcolm

Ah human filth. Let's talk about the human filth...like the ones who severely rape little babies to death and destruction Rod; now of course it could be an anomaly, but it isn't: all peadophilia (incestuous and otherwise) cases in the United Kingdom are committed a 100% of the time by white males. So seductive this favourite British past-time is that even white women have now got in on the act. Aint that just so British and wholesome? Perhaps that is the English culture that Rod and his BNP buddies so crave the return of. If only us pesky outsiders could leave the country so you could better hide your shame, right? From Catholic priests viciously dislocating the rectums of little boys to fathers repeatedly raping and spawning offspring with their daughters while holding them prisoner to nursery workers molesting the children in their care - how come the perpetrators in each and every single one of these cases are always white Rod? Is there a defect in whiteness that causes this satanic behaviour? Could it be a side effect of the melanin deficiency perhaps?

Violent and deviant Hollywood movies (and videogames) are a far more efficacious aphrodisiac for the young white and Black youth than Rap or any other type of music could ever aspire to be. You don't need a Phd to know that interactive visual and aural stimulation combined, completely supersede just aural. Case in point: the other human filth who set his girlfriend ablaze in the woods recently. I'm sure you know the one I'm talking about. I wonder what rap song he got that plot from. Hmmm. Or how about the human filth who so wantonly defrauded the Global bank that they bankrupted the whole world, wrecking countless lives as a result? Or the human filth who, not content with the genocide of empire, still see murder and military genocide as an adequate foreign policy? All white again Rod, why didn't you mention them Rod? Historically, and presently, you are the world's greatest killers, few have killed more than the British; and with both your moral legs blown off you dare make a fuss about a few skirmishes in a very tiny, marginalised section of the Black community? GTFOH!

You see Rod, I don't have a problem having a converstaion about human filth, just so long as it is a comprehensive and thorough one. Otherwise you could be accused of inherent bias, or worse. Like the media bias which insists on viewing the misdemeanours of Blacks through a telescope the right way up, but views that of whites with the telescope the wrong way up. Did you even know that the totality of all Blacks in the UK constitute only 1% of the entire country's popultaion? That statistic is from the Office of National Statistics. And I'm supposed to believe that Blacks commit 100% of the crime? GTFOH! Your white kids can't read, write or think! They're out mugging old ladies, molesting girls, stealing cars, dealing and doing drugs, commiting white on white gang violence and crime, and generally engaging in all manners of moral turpitude. Oh and I forgot - getting drunk. This is what it means to be British? These are meant to be our future leaders? Again, GTFOH! How about you focus on them? I see them everyday - the sad, under-served bastards. What are you going to say to them when karma comes around? That you had an unhealthy, overwhelming racist interest in Black people, that's why you abandoned them? Get your house in order first mister.

journeyman

ATTENTION STATISTICAL ANALYSIS ALERT:
Recently,I came across a statistic claiming that 2/3rds of extreme violent crime among the 14 to 24 age group in the Netherlands,originated from the immigrant Muslim population,and inparticular,of Moroccan descent.
Looking at the comments here,I would suspect that most of those with a rather sketchy understanding of statistics would be inclined to interpret my above statistic of (2/3)should indicate that roughly double that type of crime is comitted by that ethnic group.However,that is a false assumption unless we take into account one other factor.And that is of course--what percentage of the population is it that this ethnic group comprises,before one can truely understand the significance of this statistic.
If 1 million of the total Dutch population of 16 million are of this ethnic group,that means 1/16th.
We need to take the (2/3)figure meaning (double)or (2)and multiply by (1/16)or 16 and we get the figure 2x16=32.
Meaning that it is 32 times more likely that type of crime originating from that particular ethnic group,than from the indigenous Dutch.
Another interesting statistic which a native Finn has been prosecuted for pointing out,is that it is 50 times more likely you could be mugged by a Somali in Finland,than by a Finn.
Even though he made the effort simultaneously to point out the similarly disproportionate reputation for achoholic consumption and its associated behaviour,that Finnish men have.Which did not,by the way,do anything to exonerate him from the charges he was confronted with.
Another thing which becomes ever more apparent is that the religious creed of "anti-racism"and the fanatical blind zeal with which it is fomented,has now become as bigger threat to western civilization as the crime of "racism"which it was meant to suppress.
There are simply too many commentators here who which to censor the debate with accusations comparable to 14th Christianity and its blasphemy,heretic mongering.
It was George Orwell,paradoxically hero of the academic left liberal intelligencia,who stated:

"Liberty,if it means anything at all,is the liberty to tell other people,that which they do not which to hear".
The hang ringing left/liberal/knee-jerk/hypocrit/Left/Liberals who have attacked Liddle,with cowardly intellectual fascism,are more interested in the smug arrogance and self-righteous,feel holy,mantra,cliche induced flashing of their "anti-racist" credentials--than freedom of inquiery and exchange of ideas.
There is appears to be an insistence that we inhabit an intellectual "Goldilocks Zone"for fear of inadvertantly touching of another Holocaust.
By demonising free-speech as hate speech,we leave ourselves defenceless in being able to determine if their is a real or imagined threat of future social anarchy,balkanisation and regression.Whether domestic,imported or both.

Jack Walter Lemon Matthau

Lest we forget you, eh Rob? Ron... whatever... yada yada, blah blah...

mchops

I have the misfortune to live close by your alma mater, Rod, and I can quite unequivocally state that the filth that infest your not-so-beloved Guisborough on a Saturday night have turned the town into a no-go zone for decent white folk.

It's impossible to for a quite civilised drink with your own kind without being confronted by under-dressed harlots screeching beer-breathed obscenities in your ear. Quite often the only way to escape the casual bottlings which have become the rite of passage of the inbred godless populus is to hide in one of the two bus stops which are usually occupied by fat scumbags receiving executive hand relief from drug-addled nymphettes.

It is nauseating to have to stand by and watch while great British values such as restraint, politeness, and reserve are eroded by these belching, staggering, sexually incontinent soul-dead parasites.

As the sun rises, the detrius is cleared and another faecal week begins in the mire that raised you, I have to again anticipate the hectoring that my children will receive from their willfully illiterate classmates, simply for having the temerity to display an enthusiasm for the efforts of their teachers.

With the return of every weekend my disgust for this town grows stronger, my resolve weaker, my hope fainter.

Welcome to Guisborough; the whitest, most decadent, most gleefully ignorant unicultural sh*thole in Britain, where the only people who seem to know the value of hard work, restraint, temperance and familial integrity are brown-skinned.

RDA

By saying that most street crime is carried out by the African-Caribbean community, you are not saying that all of the African-Caribbean community are street criminals.

In the same vein, just because a racist would agree with a comment, it does not make the comment racist.

If only Diane Abbott (MP don't you know) had considered that before making her inane contribution. How pathetic to suggest that Rod's comment could have featured in a speech by Oswald Mosley.

By that logic, the fact that Hitler's Germany treated single mothers comparatively well means that Labour have a Nazi policy in their child tax credit system. In truth their Nazi policies lie elsewhere.

I noted how outraged the BBC have been by the blog. Far more outraged than they were by Reginald Hunter's recent comment about blue-eyed blond hair devils on the BBCs 'It's Only a Theory' - that waste of my license fee was a particular highlight.

So if Rod Liddle is ‘low level racism’ what 'level' of racism does Reginald belong to Diane? I think it is the same one that you belong to, the hypocritical self-aggrandising kind.

You say that Rod Liddle is not stupid, how gracious you are, but he can hardly return the compliment when you make comments like this: ‘If it is not blackness per se that is the problem why mention the race of the young men at all?’ The reason Diane, is because if he didn’t, how would we know what he was talking about? It would have been an odd blog if Rod had stated that ‘The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by... people.’

Of the numerous incidents in which friends and acquaintances of mine have been victims of knife crime, the attacker has been a black male in every instance, one of which resulted in death.

Rod's comment highlights a problem. He does not claim that problem has a racial cause, only that it manifests itself within a particular group defined by race, sex and age. Note the lack of twitter outrage about how his comment could be construed as ageist or sexist. It is also depressingly predictable that the comments posted by the self-anointed ‘good guys’ and ‘enemies of racism’ are the ones that are full of vitriol and short on reason.

I doubt a sensible debate can come from this, but in response to Ludlow Spinks’ comment that Rod’s comment was unnecessary because ‘the debate’ about the alienation of young black men is already well advanced in the liberal press completely misses the point. The problem is not young black men, nor the facts as portrayed by Rod Liddle, but the cowardly pseudo-intellectualismof the liberalist culture that is slowly strangling the remnants of the Great in Britain.

P.S. Fergus Pickering your thought-free comments leave you in the Diane Abbott camp I’m afraid

Peter Gompertz

I reckon this can be defended as 'fair comment' Rod. Well done

Ludlow Spinks

But hey (do you see what I did there), but hey - if it's the link between gender, age, ethnicity and criminality in London we're talking about, why don't we arrange an anthropologists' field day to a home match of Roddyboy's beloved Millwall - see how the decent, law-abiding overwhelmingly white young folk of Bermondsey respond to our polite enquiries, hmm?

Pilut

Gee Rod. Those African and Caribbean people are a disgrace! I guess it's all the thanks we get for exploiting their continent (Africa) and enslaving them for centuries... Get a grip!

John R H

There is often a problem with interpreting statistics - even assuming they are correct in he first place. However, there should never be a problem in defending free speech and the right to offend. In any case - Rod did highlight correctly a serious problem. So why do bossy people always want to shut down the views of journalists or anyone with whom they disagree. That is what is dangerous - not Rod's supposed and inaccurately described racism.

Tom Pride

Verity
December 7th, 2009 12:12am

Verity – I was quoting Ludlow Spinks (at 8:30 p.m.).

Stuart Seacole Smith

Hmm, looking through these comments, I'm a bit confused.

- For those who've felt angered by RLs post, is it that they don't believe it's true that young afro carribean males are the most likely demographic to commit violent crimes in London?

- Or is it that they think it is true, but there are so many "good" reasons for it (colonialism = genocide, slavery, the pillaging of the natural riches of africa etc) that RL, and white society in general should just jolly well shut up and put up?

- Is it that they feel that there are plenty of white people who are human filth (which is undoubtedly true), and that this somehow means RL et al shouldn't feel they have the right to highlight, well, anything?

- Or is it something else?

terryuno

Well done rod!

100% spot on.

M. C. Funn.

I totally agree Rod. Following on, I know some Jews who will do anything for some spare cash, and all they've given us is chicken soup.

You bloated, disgusting bigot Liddle. I wish your existence was an anomaly. But it isn't. The overwhelming majority (I'm not going to quote any statistics or evidence to support the ridiculously outlandish claim i am about to make - sound familliar?) of irresponsible journalism/'comment' writing, unnecessary reinforcement of simple and offensive stereotypes, total ignorance of the feelings both of individuals and communities as a whole in order that their own opinions are venerated above any other, and the tired defense of 'free speech' being trotted out almost immediately after a piece of writing designed cynically to tittilate with offensive pseudo forsight, perhaps in order to boost a public profile, but more probably because a) either some sexual excitement is garnered from it, or b) the perpetrators really are that narrow minded and pathetic, (a defence, by the way, whose beauty and attempt at genuine inclusion and worthwhile debate crumbles to pieces in the tainted hands of idiots like this) is carried out by late-middle aged, middle class, white, educated columnists. Of course, in return, we have Richard Littlejohn, Jan Moir, Jon Gaunt, and the bitter taste of a racism so damaging that it cloaks itself as 'sardonic comment' in order to slip under the radar and instill the same level of bigotry in the general public as resides in the idiot writer, corsucating through society leaving us scared to walk through the front door and talk to the people who live next door. For which, many thanks.

You horrible, horrible man.

Proud African Female

As a very proud black female, this article has stirred a lot of emotions, the greatest being relief. Relief that majority of the white people I have met are loving, respectful and accommodating. You my friend are an exception rather than the norm, and that is a great relief.

Zanne

How dare you make such a statement! we have contributed much more, and your records regarding crime is so wrong (and believe me i know), look in your garden before you look in anyone else's.

Harry Calder

Re: Peter at Maidstone. Statistics out of context can not only be meaningless, but can be misleading. For instance, people who have a hot milky drink at bedtime are more likely to get skin cancer. This is because people who have hot, milky drinks at bedtime tend to be older people, and older people are more likely to get skin cancer. So while the statistic is perfectly true, not only can no reasonable inference be made from it, it is misleading. Indeed, stated in such a form, it is *designed* to mislead.

Rod has been busy telling us in subsequent posts that this is not a genetic matter. Well, of course it bloody well isn’t! And if Rod had made that point clear in his article, he wouldn’t have needed to clarify it subsequently. But, whether Rod admits to it or not, his original article was intended to imply that the problems described apply to *all* black people, and do so because of their race.

And no, you don’t need to be a hand-wringing Guardian-reader to object to that. The alternative to being a hand-wringing Guardianista is *not* being an obnoxious oaf. Most of us manage to find a decent middle ground.

David SI

Ludlow,
Rod has posted an article which comments on what appears to be a statistical fact.
In response, you've posted a large number of insults .... but no counter-argument, logical or otherwise....Just an ongoing stream of insults.
Could you please stop shooting at the 'messenger' for five minutes and tell us why you think the 'message' is inaccurate or misleading (i.e. something that's based on data/facts rather than your views of Rod's racism). That way, you'll come across as being a lot more credible. At the moment, you just come across as being hysterical.

RezaV

@ Tom Pride

"The multiculturists blindly state that there will be a positive impact from the fusion of the best from different cultures. Mark Steyn points out that more often there is a negative impact from the fusion of the worst elements in both cultures."

Absolutely correct.

This is because for multiculturalism to exist, there has to be a climate where ‘moral equivalence’ is the accepted wisdom. And moral equivalence can only exist in an environment of non-judgementalism.

And when you have this, you cannot blame the problems and failings of certain groups on their cultural deficiency. Indeed there can be no such thing as “cultural deficiency”.

That would be ‘racist’. Or culturally imperialist. Or rude. Or judgemental.

So their failure is blamed on 'society’. Or better still ‘white’ racism.

However inelegantly Rod addresses these inconvenient truths, he is right.

JP

"Hmm, looking through these comments, I'm a bit confused."

Allow me to enlighten you.

"- For those who've felt angered by RLs post, is it that they don't believe it's true that young afro carribean males are the most likely demographic to commit violent crimes in London?"

No, it's that associating crime with race is a useless, unpleasant, and simplistic method of addressing the problems of crime, a method with a fascist precedent.

"- Or is it that they think it is true, but there are so many "good" reasons for it (colonialism = genocide, slavery, the pillaging of the natural riches of africa etc) that RL, and white society in general should just jolly well shut up and put up?"

Again, it's not that people should 'put up' with crime, but that it should be addressed by policing, on a case-by-case basis, examining individual crimes rather than individual races.

"- Is it that they feel that there are plenty of white people who are human filth (which is undoubtedly true), and that this somehow means RL et al shouldn't feel they have the right to highlight, well, anything?"

No, it just seems scarily ambiguous what, precisely, Rod thinks he is 'highlighting'. This crime was despicable - so much is obvious. That it was caused by 'multiculturalism' seems tenuous.

"- Or is it something else?"

see above.

Ludlow Spinks

David, absolutely untrue.

He has combined grotesque reductionist racial stereotyping ("goat curry and rap music") with outright lies (young black men attempting to murder pregnant women is NOT AN ANOMALY - i.e. it is normal).

This is fact.

You can bicker about statistics all you like, but the fact that Rod has made offensively racist statments is unarguable.

Carl

Oh dear Rod, it appears that you have been Branded, or should it be Rossed?

Vox populi

What no mention of Stewart Blackburn who murdered his girlfriend by setting her alight? No mention of Edward Erin who tried to murder his mistress's unborn baby by poisoning its mother? No mention of Sollecito and Knox who murdered a young woman for no reason at all? I wonder why that might be, they've all been in the news in the last two weeks. Oh yes, they were all White!

Zzzzz

The whole problem with Liddle is he's just boring. That's about it really.

JP

Has anyone noticed the classified advert for the 'Big Steel Band' at the bottom of this page? Would Rod dismiss them along with goat curry and rap music? Perhaps they deserve a refund.

I'm black I must be a criminal

Is this what the spectator passes off as journalism?

If Blacks are ruining british society, please vote the BNP, send us all back to where we came from and I am sure that Britain will truly be the great country that you envisage it to be without all these darkies ruining it.

Matt

To all those whining about the apparent prejudice of Rod's point above, and indeed Diane Abbott's comments (and others') on it recently; statistically it's entirely true. But we all know that, which is why everyone gets so het up about it. Denying it only makes everything worse, and in turn, lets down those who don't want to follow the crowd and DO want to lead a life worth living. But maybe that's the whole point of political correctness; deny reality and shut off any prospect for change. It's what I'd do if I genuinely wanted to ensure that a given minority had no chance of changing.

Ken

Ludlow Spinks appears to be on a crusade against free speech, a repeat indeed of the appalling censorship that surrounded the Danish cartoons.
LS and his fellow twitterati have a mind-set that plays into the hands (or emerges from the ethos) of the despotic and illiberal ruling party.
There are rumours (on Guido and elsewhere) that Speccie is preparing to dump RL.
Ludlow Spinks and other democracy-deniers would presumably applaud this.

PeeJay

Here we going again. Can't you just leave us alone?
What are the statistics for the ethnicity of child molesters? Also why this crime? What about the killers of baby P? (White) The two french students (White). Are your figures for crimes in London? The South East? The UK? or the entire world? Enough.....off to eat some goat curry.

Ludlow Spinks

CENSORSHIP! CENSORSHIP!! CENSORSHIP!!!!!!

Sorry Ken, it doesn't wash. Nobody is denying anybody free speech - we LIKE it when buffoons like Rod are honest enough to reveal their true colours. But the thing about free speech is you have to be willing to hear people's responses too. It's called democracy dear boy.

If you try and provoke people, sometimes you will succeed. And Rod has succeeded *marvellously* here!

Ludlow Spinks

Here is a very simple question, so we can get past the statistics, the whingeing of censorship and all the rest of it.

Do you agree with Rod, when he says that young black men trying to kill a pregnant woman is not an anomaly?

And do you believe that the only benefits of multiculturalism are "goat curry and rap music"?

Yes or no?

Simon Bennett

Rod,

That's disgraceful - How dare you tell the truth. Isn't there a law against that these days?

I'm shocked!

Verity

Tom Pride - If you were quoting Ludlow Spinks, it was most unjust that I should have tarred you with the same brush. Apologies.

Stuart Seacole Smith: What genocide was Britain ever involved in in Africa (or anywhere else)?

The Arabs and the Africans were occupied in the slave trade. Not us. We stopped it with the Royal Navy.

The natural riches of Africa, far from being pillaged, were developed by Britain, left to go to wrack and ruin when we left and have only picked up again since the Chinese started buying up Africa. As long as the Chinese stay and manage it, Africa can become wealthy.

Malcom: "You see Rod, I don't have a problem having a converstaion about human filth, just so long as it is a comprehensive and thorough one."

Well, Malcolm, as you are neither the owners nor the editor of The Speccie, I think your attempts at dishing out editorial direction will probably fail.

The level of debate here among the trolls is infantile. "Wha' about Amanda Knox then? Wha' about priests who abuse little boys then?" Etc. Any statement of the truth always infuriates the Gramscis/Marxists/Trots and denizens of Common Purpose. I wonder why that is.

Stuart Seacole Smith

Thanks for the enlightenment JP at 11.30! Been a while since anyone's gone to so much trouble on my account. Your points are well made. Can't help feeling though, that RL's short little post, imperfectly written as it was, left the door open to all sorts of interpretations.

For example, one thing I read into it was that PC pressures to avoid acknowledging the over representation of young afro carribean males in violent crime in London actually make it all the more difficult to deal with the problem. And a problem it is.

On multiculturalism, again the feeling I got from RL's post was that he was implying that the benefits seem to be few and far between, while the societal frictions/ complications/ social minefields/ cost etc are all too apparent, and also nobody's really sure on whose say-so large scale immigration has been instituted. I think a lot of people feel this way, and what's more have every right to.

Nobody would be silly enough to think a more cohesive (= less diverse) society would be perfect by any stretch, but it's hard to believe it wouldn't function more smoothly, and with less upset, tears and frustration than the one we've got now.

I'd agree though that taking one example of a particularly cruel crime, together with the goat curry reference didn't serve to make the argument very well.

Certainly stirred up a bit of controversy, but I think that's got more to do with the ambiguity of the post than anything else.

Ludlow Spinks

Verity - a "statement of truth" you say?

So you agree that it is a "statement of truth" that attempting to murder a pregnant woman is not anomalous behaviour for young black men?

Stuart Seacole Smith

Ludlow at 1.42, for your survey:

Do you agree with Rod, when he says that young black men trying to kill a pregnant woman is not an anomaly?

NO. Of course not. But on the question of whether I think they are on average more violent than your typical Londoner, which is what I think RL was getting at: YES.

And do you believe that the only benefits of multiculturalism are "goat curry and rap music"?

Again, NO. But on the question of whether I feel that the problems it has introduced into society outweigh the much-touted benefits, which is again what I think RL was getting at: YES.

By the way:

- rap is not a benefit. I've never tried goat curry, but I'm sure it's very nice.
- yes/ no surveys are a total waste of time - which is of course why I just took the time to answer!

Georgie

As a 2nd-gen Caribbean immigrant, I took this personally.

I'll be sure to avoid areas where mostly white people reside, since young white men are statistically more likely to be serial killers; I'd rather be mugged, thanks very much. And no, I'm not linking to any stats, because if an esteemed journo like Liddle can't, why should I?

And did it ever occur to you that black people don't much like being mugged, either?

If you were presenting the facts, uncomfortable as they might be, in a more measured analysis, I'd have some respect for you. But the fact you've chosen to couch them in terms Jeremy Clarkson would deem a bit offhand, glib and facetious simply makes you look like the ill-informed tool you are.

Stuart Seacole Smith

Verity 2.11pm: on the genocide, slavery etc, I was just quoting some points made in earlier posts, but not advocating them.

Sue Williams

The many West Indians who come over in the 50s contributed greatly to this country by just quietly going about their business, working in the public sector and paying their taxes like everyone else. They brought up their children to do likewise. As for rap music, how many black men in suits do you see running the music industry? For that matter, how many of them are running the financial institutions that have run this country into the ground? I have yet to hear about West Indian pedophile rings in this country. Sorry couldn't resist.

There are many social issues which affect us – some more than others. Don’t ever think that one group of people is better than the other. Rod Liddle, the Christian, should know that.

Marc

I may not be from the African-Caribbean community but I, and I think the "overwhelming majority" of right-thinking members of society will be pretty disgusted at your glib comments Rod. I hope you get Moired over this - you deserve it.

Ludlow Spinks

Stuart Seacole Smith, I'm not interested in "what you think RL was getting at", I'm interested in what he said.

What he said was that young black men attempting to brutally kill a pregnant woman was not an anomaly, and that goat curry and rap music are the only benefits of having many cultures in this country. Both of which I'm very glad to hear you disagree with.

He may have been "getting at" something more subtle as well, but the fact that he said these untrue, ugly, racist things rather spoils his attempt to "get at" them, don't you think?

Frankie D.

Links to evidence to back up any of your claims, please!

Nick Griffin

This reads like a a BNP pamphlet

Carl

Verity, if Britain was not involved in the slave trade, could you tell me how the slaves got to North America and the Caribbean? Did they swim?

David Hart

I used to live in Glasgow and there was plenty of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, and other social ills in that city. Never saw any African-Caribbean youth there.I think Rod Liddle has got a fixation on black males as it seems to be a recurring theme. My pension has been destroyed by the fall in share values and the credit crunch. I wonder if it's linked to gansta rap?

Ludlow Spinks

Here's what I find most priceless:

Not even Rod's staunchest defenders have tried to use the defence that he's being funny.

Despite his feeble attempt in the Diane Abbot discussion to say "it was MEANT to be sardonic" nobody else takes what he's saying as humorous in any way.

Given that he clearly thinks himself some kind of Swift for our times, he must be SEETHING at this.

So: not funny, not right, not able to hit his targets and not really very well liked.

Poor rubbish Racist Rod.

hiro

Rod - you seem to be saying that the black community nothing but rap music, goat curry and horendous crimes?

What a nasty thing to say about the hundreds of decent black people I have worked and lived with - who are honest, working, church going, WORKING CLASS people, getting by on sht wages and pretty much zero representation across mainstream society.

If that's what you meant Rod, you're a fcking disgrace.

JP

"Thanks for the enlightenment JP at 11.30!"

Pleasure.

"Can't help feeling though, that RL's short little post, imperfectly written as it was, left the door open to all sorts of interpretations."

Agreed, that's why I take against it to be honest.

"one thing I read into it was that PC pressures to avoid acknowledging the over representation of young afro carribean males in violent crime in London actually make it all the more difficult to deal with the problem. And a problem it is."

That you had to 'read' this into RL's post is what I object to. By leaving such things ambiguous he opens himself up to various criticisms, ones he seems to revel in. Crime is a problem, 'Afro-Caribbean crime' doesn't seem to me a valid (or valuable) category.

"On multiculturalism, again the feeling I got from RL's post was that he was implying that the benefits seem to be few and far between, while the societal frictions/ complications/ social minefields/ cost etc are all too apparent, and also nobody's really sure on whose say-so large scale immigration has been instituted. I think a lot of people feel this way, and what's more have every right to."

Again you highlight RL's irresponsible ambiguity. 'The feeling you got' was that he was 'implying' something. This is not exactly a brave trumpeting of truth, is it?

The benefits or otherwise of 'multiculturalism' seem to me impossible to quantify. It is an abstract term that means very little. you list the 'societal frictions/ complications/ social minefields/ cost' but again, these are abstract terms which I do not recognise as constituting my experience of contemporary London. Perhaps a lot of people feel this way, and perhaps they have a right to, but they also have a duty to express these feelings in a cogent fashion if they want them to be engaged with seriously. Especially if they write for a living.

"Nobody would be silly enough to think a more cohesive (= less diverse) society would be perfect by any stretch, but it's hard to believe it wouldn't function more smoothly, and with less upset, tears and frustration than the one we've got now."

Again, pure speculation. By their nature these arguments from gut feeling cannot be addressed. But the depressing repetitiveness of such dismal portrayals of the 'state of the nation' in the press (go to Colindale, read papers from any generation, and the same old laments recur) is what I would object to. Also you engage in a classic form of right-wing legerdemain: what do you mean by 'cohesive'? Can a cohesive society not have black people in it?

"I'd agree though that taking one example of a particularly cruel crime, together with the goat curry reference didn't serve to make the argument very well."

It didn't make any argument at all, it merely ranted.

"Certainly stirred up a bit of controversy, but I think that's got more to do with the ambiguity of the post than anything else."

Precisely. What exactly did you mean Rod Liddle, you racist old fruit?

Ken

Ludlow Spinks @ 4:24pm:

The "amusing" thing, if that is what you regard as important, is to watch the foam-flecked Ludlow Hundal/Sunny Spinks, in posting overdrive, whipping up his Twitting supporters to back his insurgency.

Keep it up Sunny, the Spectator's advertisers will doubtless be pleased with the traffic boost to the site.

Carl

Another one for Verity: Do you really think that the Chinese are helping develop Africa? Good grief, they are raping the continent and will drain every resource that they get the right to mine, just as they are in countries such as Chile. A few will get rich from it, the many will have to live with the consequences.

Katy

You disgust me, Liddle. Where to start?
a)You're wrong. "Most" of these crimes are not committed by Black men. Most are committed by White men. Go and look up the Section 95 crime statistics: it's pretty easy. Google, Rod - let me introduce you.
b)This bloody "all Blacks give us is crime and goat curry" - ARRRRRGH. I am just imploding with rage.
c) I HATE YOU.
Yours,
A middle class White woman.

Florence of Arabia

Ludlow Spinks - Do you imagine anyone actually reads your Joycesque stream-of-consciousness drivel? Or do you think that as soon as they see your name, they scroll down with haste?

Harry Calder

Thank you, Ludlow Spinks, for your comprehensive demolition of Rod's pathetic little article. And thanks also for giving me my good belly-laugh for the day: does Rod really reckon he's the Jonathan Swift for our times? Well, I never!

JP

For Florence:

'Ludlow Spinks - Do you imagine anyone actually reads your Joycesque stream-of-consciousness drivel?'

The preferred adjectival form is 'Joycean'. Also, Ludlow's remarks a hardly Joycean, they are in the main grammatically consistent first person whitterings. The level of learning of your average Spectator bigot is clearly something to be lamented. I blame multiculturalism.

Verity

Carl writes: "Another one for Verity: Do you really think that the Chinese are helping develop Africa?"

Where did I write that "the Chinese are helping develop Africa?" Could you point to it, please?

Perhaps if you lefty trolls stopped feverishly scanning posts for offences against the fascist Common Purpose mindset, you could respond to what people actually wrote and not look like such prats.

JP

Another pedantic dig at Florence before I go:

"Ludlow Spinks - Yet another trite Americanism: "All het up". Strange how the lefties, who loathe the United States with all their hearts, have such a passion for American usage."

'Het' is not an Americanism; Burns uses it for God's sake. Maybe Scottish is too multicultural for you. A quick google search will save you much further embarrassment.

warwick

And the rest......

dg47a

Watch OLIVER TEMPLE SMITH on You Tube – he’s the only politician being honest about what’s really going on. And he’s funny.

Stuart Seacole Smith

Well thanks again JP at 4.50 for the further thoughts!

On the speculative nature of views on the benefits or otherwise of multiculturalism, of course you're right - it is in large part gut feeling, driven partly by all the cranky PC stunts we've heard so much about over the years (think things like calling Christmas the winter festival and all the other rubbish - which I believe have been promulgated mainly by misguided liberal whites). But then again, so much in life is gut instinct. It's a human thing, and it doesn't make it wrong.

Also, it is not all speculative - there are still many more or less "monocultural" countries around the world both near and far, many of which surely have problems of their own. But race related misunderstandings, bickering, court cases etc don't feature so much.

You ask - can a cohesive society have black people in it? Blimey, what a question. I assume you don't seriously need an answer. But "cohesiveness" as I understand it is not about colour. It's about shared values. Solidarity. Doing your bit for society. Being willing to contribute, and reluctant to take unless you really need to. And obeying the law, at least most of the time. It's also about being ashamed of those around you if they're part of the problem. Stuff like that. I can't really define it, but for each of us it's either something that you feel, or it's something that you know nothing of and care about even less. I think you can guess where I think knife-toting crims would fit in.

Where we get onto more difficult ground is when there are crime or public order problems and the police are afraid to act for fear of being branded racist. And all the endless hoo-ha that follows. Somehow easier to just let 'em get on with it. And who does that benefit?

Anne Wotana Kaye

Dear Mr Liddle,
Don't you know that you live in a country where they shoot the messenger?
I know what you are up to, you are fishing for a job in the BBC, hopefully sitting on a sofa between Michael and Diane. You naughty boy!

Charlie

Well said Rod, you can't ignore the facts and what we see on the streets. Glad to hear somebody has the courage to stand up and say what is being thought all over our once great country.

D M

The first thing I had to do was look you up in Google. It is very clear your are a member of BNP and a wife beating bastard. It is disgusting people like you are allowed to be a columnist. And I dont know where you get your facts on sexual violence. You really disgust me

Verity

JP - The phrase "All het up" is an Americanism.

As (almost) all Americanisms are in English, they would naturally employ words from these isles. That het is from Scotland is irrelevant.

Mark

I think most people who live and work in the capital will agree!
But what can be done?
Now that is the question!

Mark

For people like Katy. I live in Edmonton North London.Fancy a flat swap? Live Here for 6 months and then sing the praises of Multi cultural London?
The only white lower middle class man in my street!

fourdayswisdom

What Liddle says is basically true, but the sake of balance, I would urge him to spend a bit of time in Japan. This is the only country in the world now where a white person can enjoy a taste of the crap that blacks in the UK have long suffered. Try renting a flat at a Tokyo estate agent in your own name, for example, or getting into a public bath or nightclub in certain areas of Japan. And see how you feel when you are rejected for being "foreign." Not a fully analogous situation, obviously, but still, this experience can be quite an eye-opener.

Z Holbourne

Rod Liddle's comment about black people is offensive and racist and factually incorrect - but I am sure he has his fan club amongst the BNP - this is exactly the kind of comment that aids the BNP and far right parties in gaining support. How dare he negatively stereotype me, my family and friends into crime, music and food. Perhaps he needs to do some reading and research and see the great contributions that black people have made to British Society and actually look at the data on crimes where he will find the majority of crimes are committed by white people not black people. Rod is vile, racist and ignorant and ought to make a public apology for his disgusting racist comments.

Mikey

The reason why the overwhelming majority of street crime etc.etc.is carried out by the African-Caribbean community is quite simple.They are now the majority in many parts of London.I was born in North London just after the war and moved out in the mid 70's.I go back once in a while and everytime I can't wait to leave asap.The feeling of intimidation in certain parts of London from the young men of the African-Caribbean community has to be experienced to be believed.Last time I drove down Wood Green High Road,it was amazing to see very few white people about.This is known as the "white flight" as we all now live in Essex or Herts.This is true of many other parts of our capital where the white population has decreased over the years.How on earth this has happened in only a few decades defies explanation.I wouldn't want to be a policeman now in London because if they arrest a black man they're racists and have to watch everything they say and do for fear of losing their job.I reckon many would find life easier in Afghanistan than on the streets on London.Well done Rod for speaking out about this.

Edward McLaughlin

Ludlow Spinks.

"the debate about the culture and alienation of young men and young black men in particular...
all being discussed and addressed by people with genuine experience, knowledge and engagement with the complex issues involved."

Surely in this ('young black men in particular'), you give credence to the very point Rod makes:
that there is such a particularity? He just happens to have raised it in a way you consider offensive

The thing is, such 'debate' as there is, is confined to the coterie you describe, whereas it should more healthily be give the wider coverage of the MSM. And, dare we suggest, forums like this?

JP

Florence, you buffoon, at least provide a source before you make such silly claims. I refer you to the OED, which Cites Kipling:

KIPLING Day's Work (1898) 46 You look consider'ble het up

Bah, begone.

hiro

in my previous post, there should have been "contribute" after community.

Stephanie Tohill

Erm can you actually expand on how 'multi-culturalism' is to blame for this? I mean which cultures sanction throwing pregnant women into rivers, or more importantly which of the myriad Afro-Caribbean cultures support this? I won't hold my breathe for an answer...

MrJones

The ultra violent gang culture in Glasgow is also a product of too much immigration over too short a period of time in an earlier century.

This thread illustrates how it's perfectly acceptable to say racist things about white people.

""So you agree that it is a "statement of truth" that attempting to murder a pregnant woman is not anomalous behaviour for young black men?""

It's not remotely anomalous for rude boy types to behave in this sort of way. They do comparably evil things every day somewhere in the country and boast about how "bad" they are. Guardian readers have spent 60 years covering it up.

Historically i'd say the only comparable evil sub-culture i've read about (as opposed to evil individuals) is the thuggee cult in India. It's ironic they like calling themselves thugs.

GnosticBrian

Is it too late to do something about it?

dominic lennon

Well said Rod. Do not be cowed by the dumb white liberals.

John Knights

The statistics show that Black males are disproportionately more involved in certain crimes. As a black male I find no joy in that at all and Ron is stating a fact that I and many members of the 'black community' would agree with. However, I look forward to Ron's next column about the disproportionately high levels of white males involved in paedophillia, burglary, fraud and alcohol related crimes. What I am trying to say is why are there never any columns or programmes asking why white males seem to commit these crimes more than others in the same way there are about black males and street crime.

Ludlow Spinks

Florence: "Ludlow Spinks - Do you imagine anyone actually reads your Joycesque stream-of-consciousness drivel? Or do you think that as soon as they see your name, they scroll down with haste?"

Yes, you clearly read it.

Now, can you answer this:

Do you believe that young black men attempting to murder a pregnant woman is "not an anomaly"?

And do you believe that having multiple cultures in this country has given us nothing more than "goat curry and rap music"?

Rod does. He states this very clearly. I believe that to be racist.

Nobody has yet answered these simple points, choosing instead to insult my use of language, call me names, accuse me of being someone I'm not, obscure things by trying to manipulate statistics, bicker about semantics.

Do you agree with the two statements above? And do you think that these statements are racist? This is all that matters here.

Verity? Florence? Ken? Can you answer those questions?

indy_skies

regardless of the authors personal opinions, i thought better of the spectator than to publish this :(

Ludlow Spinks

Doesn't wash, Mr Jones.

Rod's not talking about "rude boy types". If he was, he would say so.

He's talking about "young black men". Please stick to what he actually said, not "what you think he's getting at". Thanks.

Joe Muggs

And do you also blame the ultra violent cultures of white people in Doncaster, Manchester, Plymouth, Southampton, Swansea, Reading, Swindon etc etc etc on "too much immigration"?

Ludlow Spinks

Oh yes, and Edward - if the debate about young black men IS confined to a "coterie" (sounds a bit like "conspiracy" to me, mate), that's the problem of the right wing not being able to talk about race without a sense of panic, not of anyone else.

It's people like Rod here, or our friend Mad Mel, who STOP the debate taking place sensibly with their dogwhistles and panic words.

Talk about young black men and crime by all means but don't start the discussion by suggesting that attempted murder of a pregnant woman is typical behaviour of this group. It should be really easy but the right just don't seem to be able to grasp it.

Frankie J

This post is an embarrassment. It’s destructive, sweeping statements like this that make me truly ashamed to be British.

St Bruno

Operation Black Vote - Diane Abbott, MP
It seems that the Spectator article by Rod Liddle has caused quite a stir amongst the varied people who inhabit the comments sections.
No one less than Diane Abbot MP, could be a scam of course but I am a trusting type of person, replied. My thoughts are such that I wonder if she was pushed in the direction of the article or did she find it while browsing the Spectator comments, not that it matters much.
Why can’t a person be classified by race, I don’t mind, I am an English white person and proud if it. I’ve heard it said often, and in this very comment, that ‘I’m a black woman and proud of it’. Having a black skin immediately identifies a person by race, tribe, nation etc like having a white skin does. But that is too simple for the social change forces at work within the Labour Party. I have always wondered why there are too many white faces about for you.
I find some of your remarks a bit over the top the phrase ‘hysterical racial stereotypes’
What do you prefer ‘true racial stereotypes’ ‘South African racial stereotypes of post white apartheid’
Please stop playing the Jewish, Oswald Mosley card as if were a trump card, it doesn’t work any more with Muslim, or black issues.

John Bull anti-vaccine

An interesting discussion. Shame that so many right-wingers are short on facts. In fact, it's breathtaking the nonsense that some people have written. So I think it might be helpful to clarify.

Firstly, Liddle's claims that "The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community." is wrong. In fact the only one that is, is what the police deem 'mugging'. If you don't believe that, you best to look up some statistics. We live in a majority White country where the majority of crime is committed by White people and some of it, paedeophilia being just one example being almost exclusively perpetrated by White people.

Verity - you must have different text books from us. Ones in which the British had not involvement in the Atlantic slave trade other than to stop it; begs the question as to why the Church of England felt the need to apologise for slavery. Oh no that's right, it's not history, you got that from 'Amistad'!

The Chinese are not 'buying up' Africa (it's a continent not one country you might like to remember) they're investing in some of the Southern countries there. They run nothing and they manage nothing. Much of Africa was doing just fine without them and there was never any British disinvestment there apart from minor concessions against apartheid.

And yes I've lived in America and here and unlike you I know that no law exists to support what you call 'positive discrimination' in this country, which I find is usually just an excuse used by White middle-class whiners like as to why they have a less senior less well paid job than me.

Michael Henehan

It scares me how many people appear to share your mindset. Can't you see past colour and realise that yes, there are a lot of shits from disadvantaged areas, but that it has nothing to do with their colour.
I would feel more scared being around racist white thugs that clearly can't think rationally than I would on a bus where I was the only white person.

Radric Davis

By now, I'd have expected *somebody* to have told the one about a lie, a damned lie and a statistic all sat at a bar. Or perhaps the one about the difference between slavery and indentured servitude.

j.doe

Rod, early 20s postgrad educated individual here. Just to let you know, more of my generation are with you on this than your own. We're not commies, we didn't live through the self-indulgence of the 1960s and given our everyday exposure on the streets of our cities to the failure of multiculturalism most of us dont like where this is heading. Unlike the 40,50,60 something intellectuals who lived in cocooned and glorified isolation we're exposed to these issues - in the inner cities, in social settings, in the streets after dark. Support you 110%.

SHERRILLE LONDON

Rod Liddle
You are a racist pig. As usual many white mainstream journalist always try to stereotype black men and wonen as criminals or prostitutes.What do you hope to achieve by publishing such propaganda? What perfect human beings white men must be.Surely that is what you tried to point out???

wrinkled weasel

You quoted a fact, used a bit of irony that was supposed to be shorthand for "maybe multiculturalism is not the stonking success it might be"

Result: Outrage.

I spent a lot of time sometime ago trying to establish the facts, which by the way, concur.

What worries me is not the hysterical "la,la,la, I'm not listening" comments on here, but the deliberate attempt by the Metopolitcan Police to sit on the statistics.

It's the climate change syndrome: if the data does not give the answer we want, hide the data.

Until very recently, knife crime stats had to be dragged out of the Police under FOI requests. Any correlation between ethnic groups and higher than average convictions was, by any stretch of the imagination, suppressed.

The BBC routinely suppresses the fact that many of these high profile, violent crimes are perpetrated by Afro-Caribbeans.

It took the Daily Mail, yes the Daily Mail, to get the truth, from official Met records in 2008, and lo!, the truth is there for all to see:

"Black youths are suspected of more than half of knife crime among children in the capital, according to confidential Scotland Yard figures.

A highly-sensitive report reveals that 124 of the 225 under-18s legally 'proceeded against' for knife offences in the past three months are from the black community.

Yet in the overwhelming majority of reported cases of knife crime involving young people, the victims are white."

Now, are your readers going to dispute this? On what basis? The Met didn't

The uncomfortable truth exists and needs to be dealt with buy people like Rod Liddle, or it will be dealt with by people like Nick Griffin - you make the choice, but don't pretend it is not a problem.

JP

“Well thanks again JP at 4.50 for the further thoughts!”
A pleasure, though I don’t seem to be getting through.
“On the speculative nature of views on the benefits or otherwise of multiculturalism, of course you're right - it is in large part gut feeling, driven partly by all the cranky PC stunts we've heard so much about over the years (think things like calling Christmas the winter festival and all the other rubbish - which I believe have been promulgated mainly by misguided liberal whites). But then again, so much in life is gut instinct. It's a human thing, and it doesn't make it wrong.”
It makes it nonsensical, reactionary, irrational and not a point of debate though.
“Also, it is not all speculative - there are still many more or less "monocultural" countries around the world both near and far, many of which surely have problems of their own. But race related misunderstandings, bickering, court cases etc don't feature so much.”
Name some ‘monocultural countries’, and show me how they suffer less from ‘race related misunderstandings’, or ‘bickering’ or ‘court cases’. Absurd.

“You ask - can a cohesive society have black people in it? Blimey, what a question. I assume you don't seriously need an answer. But "cohesiveness" as I understand it is not about colour. It's about shared values. Solidarity. Doing your bit for society. etc”
Then why highlight the race of those who you deem to be antisocial. They’re criminals, not black criminals, though they may happen to be black. Your reframing of the question as one of ‘cohesiveness’ pre-supposes a cultural unity which you feel is necessary in maintaining civilitude. This has nothing to do with race, but behaviour.
“Where we get onto more difficult ground is when there are crime or public order problems and the police are afraid to act for fear of being branded racist. And all the endless hoo-ha that follows. Somehow easier to just let 'em get on with it. And who does that benefit?”
I don’t see how this follows. The police fear being branded ‘racist’ so RL must be racist for them, an avatar for the pent up fear of ‘otherness’ that every right thinking Englishman shares? This seems to be the implication, and it is one that I find absurd.

On a side note, I realise my earlier gloss of the origins of 'het up' should have been adressed to Verity, rather than Florence. Still, they are both buffoons, standing together in ignorance.

Robin Kay

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/humber/8400183.stm

another ugly crime, but one that may play less happily with the ideas of race and cruelty that have made some of those commenting giddy with righteousness and a longing for Ealing Studios England

Malcolm

OK Rod, I've done your homework for you...

Statistics on Race and the Criminal Justice System - 2004
A Home Office publication under section 95 of the Criminal Justice Act 1991
http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/s95race04.pdf

Chapter 3 - Victims and Homicide - Page 20 (pg 29 in the pdf reader) Paragraph 4

"Table 3.6 shows, for England & Wales, the ethnic appearance of victims and principal suspect (where it was known). Ninety-two per cent of White victims were killed by suspects from
the same ethnic group. The
corresponding proportions, i.e. victims and suspects being from the same ethnic group, were lower for Asian people (66%) and Black people (56%)."

So there goes the fantasised notions of disproportionate Black on Black violent crime. Combine this fact with the data presented on Table 3.5 (pg 21) that a total of 1,943 (out of a grand total of 2,605 homicides across all ethnicities) white people were the victims of homicide between 2001 and 2004 inclusively, in England and Wales combined, as compared to just 265 Black people, then a disturbing trend of disproportionately greater propensity for homicidal violence emerges within the white community.

Table 3.6 (pg 22) corraborates this even further by displaying the corresponding total numbers of principal suspects in homicide cases covering the same time period and locations: Of the total 2,605 murder suspects, disproportionately, 1,491 were white; only 252 were Black. So, according to the official stats, between 2001 and 2004 inclusive, 1,787 white people (92% of the 1,943 murdered) were killed by other white people. Whereas only 148 Black people (56% of the 265 murdered), across England and Wales over a three year period, were the victims of so called Black on Black crime.

Table 3.7 (pg 22) shows that of the 1,943 white people killed in that 3 year time period, 521 died at the hands of a family member, as compared to 54 for Blacks (out of 265), and 50 (out of 168) for Asians (and that's with honour killings included). Sadly, the trend for white propensity for violence grows even more disturbing as this official government report carries on...

Table 3.8 (pg 22) spells it out clearly that of the 766 total homicides committed by sharp instrument (i.e knives aka knife crime) over the 3 year period from 2001 to 2004 in England and Wales combined, 556 were committed by white people, yep, you heard me - by white people. Only 102 were committed by Black people. This is your Government telling you this, You can check out the official document here to see for yourself - http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/s95race04.pdf. The table also shows that of the total 247 shootings over the same period, 120 were by white people; only 82 by Black. It is quite clear from this report that white people supersede at and excel in every area of violent crime than all the other ethnic groups in the UK...combined! This propensity for violence even extends to terrorism. In the year 2003/4 (table 4.8 pg 35), in England and Wales, 5 white people were arrested in connection with terrorism; no other ethnic group was involved in such things.

Oh dear! Every page continues to make even more grim reading I'm afraid. In the year 2003/4 in England and Wales (table 5.1 pg38), of the 1.3 million people arrested for notifiable charges, wait...hold on, I don't think I can believe this myself - an overwhelming 1.1 million were white! Jesus wept! Only 116,000 were Black. However, of that Black total, 12.5% were arrests resulting from stop and search whereas for the white total, only 6.2% of them resulted from stop and search. One wonders what that percentage would have risen to if more of those 1.1 million white offenders had actually been stopped and searched; instead of the evident unjustified focusing on the Black community, which, as it happens, this report uncovers as saints compared to the white community.

Of the 1,359 people cautioned for sexual offences in 2003 in England and Wales, 84.8% were white (it wasn't made clear whether or not this data included peadophiles). Of the 29,619 people arrested for sexual offences, a whopping 79.4% were white (again, it wasn't made clear whether or not this data included peadophiles).

There's such a wealth of information in this report, wish I could distill it all for you here but alas, time beckons. However, for your full viewing and consuming pleasure, here it is: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/s95race04.pdf - bon appetit!

RDA

Thank you Georgie for criticising Rod Liddle in an intelligent rational way and raising the issue of whether he feels the need to discuss 'white crime' in his blogs.

Note to those who feel the need to smash up banks every time they protest against climate change: banking is not a crime.

Financial Institutions did not beggar the country, the Labour party did, through over spending and devaluing capital with excessively low interest rates.

As for Crudlow Thinks - do you know what a paragraph is or how grammar works? I know you need to have fantasy racists to do battle with but you really need to learn to read better first.

Midge

Hey, Spectator admins, I think there's a bug in your comments system. It posted the first person's comment - something about black people eating goat curry and murdering people - as if it was an article by a paid journalist. Are the "filter this comment" and "publish as article" buttons next to each other?

Ronald Bentham

Well done Rod. Brave and needed to spark a much required debate.

Verity

John Bull writes: We live in a majority White country where the majority of crime is committed by White people and some of it, paedeophilia being just one example being almost exclusively perpetrated by White people.

You lefty trolls have all been directed to mention paedophilia related to the indigenous people of these islands as often as possible, I note. By the way, why do you capitalize white?

Addressed to me personally: “begs the question as to why the Church of England felt the need to apologise for slavery. Oh no that's right, it's not history, you got that from 'Amistad'!”

I haven’t the faintest idea what Amistad is and the reason the Archbish, whose name I can’t recall, but he’s a Welsh chap and completely irrelevant, “apologized for slavery” is, he’s on the same multiculti bandwagon as you.

The Chinese are not 'buying up' Africa (it's a continent not one country you might like to remember) they're investing in some of the Southern countries there. Thanks. I know that. Anything the Chinese buy up will make money. The UN aid junkies will have to start producing something other than bloviating hot air. Chinese sympathy for non-producers is zero.
Referring to the Chinese, you write: Much of Africa was doing just fine without them. Is this what they call “irony”? The hungry maw of Africa has had hosed around US100 bn down its neck via the UN, the IMF and various other “international agencies” created for the purpose of hosing money into the richest continent in the world: Africa. That the Chinese are in there and taking control is a cause for us to rejoice. They will get the countries they are involved in producing, and save us the billions of dollars of enforced “charity”, plus the fees of the middlemen – the UN “officials”, countries’ “presidents” and their wives, and other agencies whose life’s blood is forced international “charity”.

What’s not to like?

“Another one for Verity: Do you really think that the Chinese are helping develop Africa? Good grief, they are raping the continent and will drain every resource that they get the right to mine, just as they are in countries such as Chile.”

Such is life. Only the strong survive. And the Chinese are very strong. Do you think you should order the social workers and grief counselors in?

This is the way life works. The Chinese will take Africa away from the Africans. So friggin’ what? At least they won’t need all those loving little gap-year-student-helper- water well-drillers in any more. Those students can go and work in Little Bangladesh in Leeds.

jez san

Ludlow: The implication of the post is clearly that extreme violence, disproportionate to the trigger is not anomalous amongst London's black males. He's right - just scan the local papers, even research the crime and population figures.You're getting cross because Rod may be a closet racist. Perhaps he is, but as an 'ethnic' myself (Indian),I'm more frightened of men capable of extreme violence than right-wing journalists. What's the real problem here?

Harry Calder

Contrary to appearances, Rod probably *isn't* a racist. He is smart enough to know that racism is unpleasant and corrosive: this is why he keeps coming back to tell us that he isn't *really* a racist. The problem is that he can't help playing to the gallery, and he doesn't seem to realise that this particular gallery isn't worth playing to. He has been told so often that the nasty piffle he keeps writing is "brave" and "courageous", that he has come to believe it.

He makes the mistake also of thinking that he represents majority opinion, and that those who find articles such as the one here objectionable are merely hand-wringing Guardian-reading types, and may therefore be dismissed. I think he is mistaken in this. The British people are, on the whole, far more decent than Rod seems to imagine, and would much rather live with people of different races than with the sort of half-wit who dislikes others purely on the basis of skin-pigmentation. I certainly know I would, and I can assure you I'm not a Guardian-reading type.

It's a shame Rod has gone this way: he is capable of better.

Wilhelm

John Bull sh*t dribbles and babbles

''White people and some of it, paedeophilia being just one example being almost exclusively perpetrated by White people.''

So you dont get black child molesters ? Thats like Achmed Dinnerjacket saying '' we dont have gay people in Iran.''

jon ryan

It's got it up on the table, hasn't it?

Where I may disagree on the way this has been done, sometimes it's necessary to hit someone with a brick just to get their attention.

The way to deal with racist scum like Sweaty Nick and his knuckledraggers is not to ban them -they love being martyrs - but to get them into the spotlight. Question Time showed Griffin precisely for what he is and denies being.

For too long the bleeding hearts have pussyfooted around certain truths about the formation of ghettos in various parts of the UK. On this blog over the last days or two much has been brough into the open. Some of it has exposed the rampant racism that exists. (And for the record, I do not think Liddle is racist, certainly not compared to some).

On the other hand there are people who shut their eyes to the facts. This rarely helps.

Let the debate continue!

Stuart Seacole Smith

JP 12.21 - comments ever so gratefully received once again! I'm afraid that the reason you might not be getting through is that you seem to find views differing from your own almost uniformly absurd.

Just a couple of points:
- nonsensical, reactionary etc. That's your view, and you're welcome to it. Doesn't change the fact I feel angry about it.
- monocultural or almost monocultural, off the top of my head: check out some of the Scandie countries, further afield some of the asian countries spring to mind. They might not actually be monocultural, but the point is they have not been subjected to mass imigration.
- cohesiveness, yep, it's to do with behaviour alright.
- your ideas that crime cannot be linked to a group by race even when the stats show it, and that there is no problem for the police in tackling crime linked to certain race groups are your own dogma. Stick with it, eventually it might come true.

I'll take it as read that you believe this is all absurd reactionary nonsense. Which is perfectly fine with me.

Lastly, more generally the overall discussion between all the posters above (if that's what it is, not sure about that) is done no favours at all by the liberal-left tendency to (i) refuse to acknowledge that concerns held by many have any legitimacy whatsoever, and (ii) insist on literal readings of anything that can be construed as going against their ideas rather than having the sense to think about "what someone may really have been getting at". Try it, you might find it liberating. But I won't hold my breath.

Promise of Avalon

Those who defame Liddle for being racist are clearly ignorant fools. Nowhere does he say race is at fault and I think you will find that what he is criticising is the culture which spawns such actions. Culture and race are different. Look them up in a dictionary you thick, cloned idiots.

If you are looking for a word, perhaps you should try 'culturist' rather than racist.

And neither did he imply that white people never carry out heinous crimes. But then those who criticise without any substance to back up that criticism are not really interested in what that person said, only what they want other people to think they said.

Cezsar

To Malcolm @ 12.39am today, WOW! Thank you so much for presenting the real facts and stats amidst all the bullshit prejudiced conjecture and willful racist thinking here. I wonder what the racists will say now hehe. Oh that's right, most of them don't even read. Oh well. Thanks again for posting this link. It shall now become my Bible from this day forth :-)

JP

"I'm afraid that the reason you might not be getting through is that you seem to find views differing from your own almost uniformly absurd."

Not at all, I simply see little relevance in appealing to abstract concepts in a debate that centres on some quite specific claims made by Mr. Liddle.

"- nonsensical, reactionary etc. That's your view, and you're welcome to it. Doesn't change the fact I feel angry about it."

Yes, I'd just like to know what precisly it is you feel angry about. Again, appeals to 'cohesiveness', or 'monocultural' don't seem to me to be illuminating. I accuse you of obfuscation - calls for 'cohesion' masking an intolorence of others based on race.

"- monocultural or almost monocultural, off the top of my head: check out some of the Scandie countries, further afield some of the asian countries spring to mind. They might not actually be monocultural, but the point is they have not been subjected to mass imigration."

Again, I find it difficult to ascertain precisly what is meant by 'mass imigration'. Is it merely an arbitrary amount of 'immigration' at which you would draw the line?

"- cohesiveness, yep, it's to do with behaviour alright."

Then why bring race into it at all?

"- your ideas that crime cannot be linked to a group by race even when the stats show it, and that there is no problem for the police in tackling crime linked to certain race groups are your own dogma. Stick with it, eventually it might come true."

Its not that I deny the 'stats', but that I don't see how this helps anyone fight crime. Rod offers no pointers, merely intimates some connection between race and horrible crimes, leaving us to fight over the implications.

"I'll take it as read that you believe this is all absurd reactionary nonsense. Which is perfectly fine with me."

No, this is more cogent than usual.

"Lastly, more generally the overall discussion between all the posters above (if that's what it is, not sure about that) is done no favours at all by the liberal-left tendency to (i) refuse to acknowledge that concerns held by many have any legitimacy whatsoever, and (ii) insist on literal readings of anything that can be construed as going against their ideas rather than having the sense to think about "what someone may really have been getting at". "

Whilst you feel that this 'liberal left' tendancy is somehow misinformed, I feel that it addresses precisly what is at issue here - namely what Rod Liddle has written. I wouldn't presume to speculate on 'what he was getting at', but on what he wrote. My admonishments over the 'absurdity' of some posts is based on their retreat into abstraction. If they were more specific, I would be more able to point out what precisly I take issue with.

Alexander Rose

Ignorance limits understanding. If you look deeper at the history of Afro Caribbean settlement in Britain, you'll surely find more great contributions that we have brought to england than the attributes you mention in your blog. However, if you are finding it hard to find a good shop that sells great curry goat then i can point you in the right direction.

Enoch Powell-was-right

Well said Rod Lidell.It is about time Multi-Culturalism was exposed for what it is;dangerous, misguided and wholly inappropriate for Britain.

Ludlow Spinks

Stuart Smith "(i) refuse to acknowledge that concerns held by many have any legitimacy whatsoever"

Where? Who refuses to acknowledge with the issue of crime among young black men? Point this out please.

You can't. Because you are making up a straw man of the "liberal left" AGAIN.

The "liberal left" as you put it - in reality simply those people who actually engage with the issue and work on the ground with people effected instead of bellowing about Broken Britain from a point of view of pure ignorance - have been addressing this issue for ages.

I say it again: it is the RIGHT that cannot engage. Commentators like Rod are pathologically incapable of simply raising the issue - they have to begin it with gross distortions, racial insults and panic-mongering terminology.

He could have started an article with "here is a callous brutal crime committed by young black men; young black men do seem to commit a lot of violent crime in London, what can we do about this?"

But he couldn't. He had to say "this crime is not anomalous", that is to say, he characterised the entire group of young black men by one of the worst crimes imaginable. And then he followed it up with the gross and innacurate racial stereotyping of "goat curry and rap music", and the assertion that the mere presence of multiple cultures in this country is the root cause of this kind of crime.

Rod is providing an object lesson in how to derail the debate.

John Bull anti-vaccine

Wilhelm, you usually provide this quoute, ''White people and some of it, paedeophilia being just one example being almost exclusively perpetrated by White people.'' Where in that sentence does it say that there are no Black child-molesters as you put it? Perhaps you should learn the difference between almost exclusively and excluisvely.

Verity - Why did I capitalise White, because I chose to. To respond to the rest of your points, oh that's right you (still) don't have any. Well I'm off to be directed what to write together with all the other lefties on here!

EmbaressedMillwallFan

A complete lazy bit of journalism from a very lazy journalist. As has already been accertained, figures are wrong. Crime can always largely be put down to social circumstances. There's big shith oles all over the country, and people in those shith oles, regardless of colour, tend to commit more crimes. It's the Governments responisbilty in my view, primarily thourgh education, to provide people with the opportunity to improve their lives and that in turn will lower these crimes.

Anyway, with this comment Rod's just trying to impress his Millwall mates, see the below thread on a message board where he post as MonkeyMFC:

http://www.millwall.vitalfootball.co.uk/forum/forums/thread-view.asp?tid=39651&posts=6

Jim

Would I be wrong to say that young white men are involved in the same things as they are in the same gangs? or white gangs? believe me they do exist

I am sure half of the crime that happens in the street does not get reported, where are you getting your information from Mr Liddle. I am from the African-Caribbean community and I think that it is very dangerous to generalise on such a subject.

HairyNoddy

Malcolm: "Of the total 2,605 murder suspects, disproportionately, 1,491 were white;"

Murder suspects? Wouldn't it be more useful to have numbers of those convicted of murder?

But anyway, since whites make up 90 % of the population, you'd expect whites to commit 90% of the murders. If you're trying to make the case - as you are - that whites are more violent, you'd expect them to commit over 90% of the murders.

As it happens they apparently only commit 1491 / 2605 of the murders, which is 57%. You've damned your own argument with your own statistics, what a retard.

As for the charge that only whites were involved in terrorist activity in 2003/2004, I'm sure that even a halfwit like yourself hasn't forgotten what happened in 2005 and who was responsible. I'm sure I haven't.

Once again you make the charge that only whites commit paedophilia (I'm still waiting for the outraged responses from the likes of Ms Spinks to highly offensive, false and very much racist slander).

Canute

Phew, I'm glad that this perceived anomaly about crime and black youth has been well and truly proven to be nothing more than the racist ramblings of a hate filled bigot.

I look forward to hearing that Operation Trident has been concluded, and that it has been deemed to be an overwhelming success.

paulg

Ludlow you stated…..Paul, you're once again repeating the fallacy that Rod is "pointing out a problem" that is somehow hidden or suppressed. However, I would refute this by saying that nothing has been hidden or suppressed but merely misunderstood; and that my comment was not fallacious, but an analysis of what he actually said.

In language that was provocative he stated that these criminals had no culture or values that human beings can recognise, ergo, the melting pot of multiculturalism has produced a distillation of all cultures that ascertains only a common denominator of laisse faire self indulgence, a nihilistic state of mind where the only value anyone has is what you can take of them.

Some times to start a revolution some one needs to throw a brick and, by definition it’s not subtle

Irish Ellie

Young blacks and whites (working class) have been utterly let down by the dreadful education system in this country. There is absolutely no discipline of any kind from primary school or home.These children are left to drift aimlesslessly and get into drugs in cities particularly. I feel really sorry for these children but on the 4 occasions I was accosted on the street it was by black youths. I am from an Irish background and was able to talk my way out of the dangerous situations but I feel that as I get older I will become more vulnerable so I am thinking now of where safe I can go to live. Someone needs to sort this problem out and give young people more purpose to their lives and more vocational education like I had in Ireland.I was as rough as anybody but I got a good education and always aspired to better things. Give these children a better education from infant schools onwards and bring back grammar schools.

Charlie

This report is factually incorrect. The majority of the crimes you list were committed by white people. What might be more interesting and relevant is which economic background these people come from.

Ludlow Spinks

Again, you're building a straw man, Canute. Nobody says there is no problem. Nobody.

We are saying that if you approach the problem, as Rod does, with lies, bigotry and grotesque, inaccurate racial stereotypes, then you are making the problem worse, not better.

Is that so hard to grasp?

Show me the person who says there is no problem with the link between young black men and criminality or that it does not need addressing. Go on, find the person who is saying that. Can you do that?

No?

Oh.

Ludlow Spinks

"Hairy Noddy" - why should I engage with this silly side-issue of paedophilia?

It has nothing to do with the central point, which is that Rod Liddle has made false statements and skewed an important issue with grotesque racial caricatures.

Or do you agree that it is not anomalous for young black men to attempt to brutally murder pregnant women? And that having multiple cultures in this country has given us nothing but "goat curry and rap music"?

John Bull anti-vaccine

Canute - "I look forward to hearing that Operation Trident has been concluded, and that it has that it has been deemed to be an overwhelming success."

The existence of a police group (interesting that they use the term 'Operation' for a standing group)signifies nothing. It's interesting that the police feel the need to 'racialise' descriptions of some crime. There is no such offence as 'Black on Black gun crime' in the same way that 'Black on Black knife crime', 'White on White gun crime' or 'White on White knife crime' don't exist. I wonder why the police don't see the need to refer to the last two in that way. There are various gun crimes and knfe crimes on the statute books and all victims of crime are overwhelmingly likely to be victimised from someone from within their own ethnic group so what point are the police trying to make. Obviously it isn't that the crime is racially aggravated, otherwise the crime would be recorded differently. I guess it's just the usual one, "these people are different from us" - they shoot each other. Heavens knows White people don't do that! As with 'honour killings' - there's no such thing. There is however murder. Why not call it that.

JP

"In language that was provocative he stated that these criminals had no culture or values that human beings can recognise, ergo, the melting pot of multiculturalism has produced a distillation of all cultures that ascertains only a common denominator of laisse faire self indulgence, a nihilistic state of mind where the only value anyone has is what you can take of them."

What a syntactically confused jumble of nonsense you have produce. F minus for you my man. Try rewriting your sentiments in shorter sentences. And don't use words you don't understand.

Ludlow Spinks

No, PaulG, that's not what he said. That's what you want him to have said.

He said that it was not anomalous for young black men to try and murder pregnant women. And that having multiple cultures has given us nothing but violence, goat curry and rap music.

Please stop hearing what you want to hear and engage with what he really said.

If you want to start a debate about what you perceive to be lack of culture and values in a certain group then go ahead and start it. But if you're relying on racist bullshit artist would be agents provocateur like Liddle to start a sensible debate you have got a long, uncomfortable wait ahead of you.

Sarah

Ludlow Spinks: “We are saying that if you approach the problem, as Rod does, with lies, bigotry and grotesque, inaccurate racial stereotypes, then you are making the problem worse, not better.”

Rod has not done any of these things, Ludlow Spinks.

He has merely satirised the way we are all now expected to talk about multi-culturalism. That’s why it’s titled: “Benefits of a multicultural Britain”.

We are all supposed to walk around looking for something positive to say - never negative. And if you go through the pages of rags such as The Guardian two of the things the bien pensant loons love to natter about are music and food.

Hence the reference to goat music and rap curry - or whatever it was - it all blurs into one mess with Rusbridger's rag.

It's that white Guardian reader/writer tone of voice Liddle is satirising.

Read it again. This is the condescending tone they use in The Gurnydrone and The Not So Independent: "Of course, in return, we have rap music, goat curry and a far more vibrant and diverse understanding of cultures which were once alien to us. For which, many thanks."

How many times a day does the BBC and Channel 4 have some goon parroting these sentiments: "a far more vibrant and diverse understanding of cultures which were once alien to us"?

At every twist and turn we are all expected to speak like that and never mention the double standards of a society that bashes white people at every opportunity while constantly making excuses or turning a blind eye to the behaviour of some ethnic minorities.

MrJones

"Again, you're building a straw man, Canute. Nobody says there is no problem. Nobody."

1) Half the people on this thread are saying exactly that. Their way of dealing with this issue is to deny it exists and then try and drown the argument in racist rants attacking white people.

2) Guardian readers have been using the same tactics to cover this problem up for 60 years.

The fact it's now got so bad that some of you have realized you can't cover it up any more doesn't change the above two facts.

Ludlow Spinks

If any of you blowhards were interested in solutions, rather than in creating enemies and bogeymen, this discussion would have been about restorative justice (you want to bandy statistics about? try googling "effectiveness of restorative justice"!), of reform of drug laws, of after school clubs, of whether SUS laws work, of things in London like SOS Project & Kids Club which have a proven record of turning youth away from criminality, of what kind of sentencing is proved to have the most effet, of evidence-based assessment of which schools are working the best, of a thousand different ways of engaging with the individuals involved...

...but no, you just want to ATTACK. Attack "young black men", attack "liberals", attack "multicultural Britain", attack attack attack these abstract bogeymen that have little or nothing to do with the real experiences of individual Britons.

And by so doing, you make things worse.

Sarah

Ludlow Spinks, how can anyone here 'make things worse'?

Would-be criminals are going to read this thread and say to themselves: 'stuff my pang of conscience, now I've read this, I'm going to go and commit the crime'.

That's the only way things can get worse.

What planet are you on?

Jack R

And the main instrument of the UK multiculturalists, mass immigration, is still increasing; at the last count, 580,000 annually, came here, predominimantly from Asian and African societies, notably from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Somalia.
Labour's massive, irreversible, unwritten commitment to mass immigration continues right up to the election.

Trevor P

Great article Rod, but dont knock goat curry!

MrJones

The idea that things like youth clubs and poverty is to blame for this is laughable and will never work because it ignores the true problem.

The true problem is a sub-culture and what a culture or sub-culture is is a set of ideals to which members of that culture or sub-culture are pushed to aspire to.

For example in what used to be my culture before guardian readers destroyed it one of the ideals presented to young men were the VC stories in the back of Commando comics. The ideal male behaviour presented to young boys was rescuing wounded comrades from no man's land in war time.

The ideals promoted by the rude boy / gangsta sub-culture is to be "bad". The sort of attitudes included in being "bad" are things like the strong should take whatever they want from the weak (this includes a completely casual attitude to rape) and a glorification of murder.

That's the problem or rather it's the part of the problem that has to be dealt with for there to be *any* chance of things not continually getting worse.

peter

Rod for your next post you could do a study of comments to your article. Many are from people who have never heard of "The Spectator" and I suspect from their level of literacy rarely read a newspaper. Most from those of a leftish persuasion resort to abuse and insult rather than an analysis of the problem. They seem to be recruited via twitter and respond en masse. The BNP's legal expert Lee Barnes , seems to attract a similar audience to his more controversial blog.

JP

"And the main instrument of the UK multiculturalists, mass immigration, is still increasing; at the last count, 580,000 annually, came here, predominimantly from Asian and African societies, notably from Pakistan, Bangladesh and Somalia.
Labour's massive, irreversible, unwritten commitment to mass immigration continues right up to the election."

Fantastic, makes these isles a lot more cozy. Standing room only I say.

Arabella

Your editor says he supports your 'right to offend'. Quite clearly he supports your right to spread racist lies. For that is what you have based your article on - lies. Lies intended to whip up hatred of non-white people in the name of being 'non-PC' and 'controversial'. Bravo.

You sir are a low life. Human filth some might say.

Edward McLaughlin

Ludlow Spinks.

The word used was 'coterie': a small exclusive group. I think that fairly describes those who have thus far 'qualified' themselves to handle said debate.

I didn't say these two are typical and Rod described them as 'not an anomaly'. The dreadful carnage from knife and gun crime we hear about, in which black youths are involved, would suggest he has a point: a point which has been ignored due to the knee-jerk charges of racism against anyone who dares to mention it.

"Talk about young black men and crime by all means..."

That's what is happening here, and the left want it put back in its box, to the detriment of all concerned.

Simone S.

Having experience of black crime recently, I know what Rod means. I don't feel hatred towards blacks in general because I have black friends, but I hate multiculturalism and mass immigration. There is nowhere to go with the bitterness and anger that I feel because the policies, as Labour well understood, are now irreversible. So we have to live with it. Our lives are the poorer though and more violent. If Labour are slaughtered at the polls and never recover, I will feel some sense of justice, but they have managed to destroy this once beautiful country in 12 years. Some legacy. So dreadfully, dreadfully sad.

Ludlow Spinks

Because, "Sarah", people like Rod fill the debate with lies, distortions, and grotesque stereotypes.

This makes things more difficult for the people who are genuinely working to combat criminality; it makes things worse. It's not very complicated - why are you having so much difficulty getting your head around it?

Or do you think it's NOT a lie or distortion to call it "not an anomaly" for young black men to try and murder pregnant women? Or to say having multiple cultures in this country gives us nothing but violence, goat curry and rap?

Stuart Seacole Smith

=> JP, you certainly are one persistent individual, which I applaud. Personally however, I'm not sure we can get much further on this, but more comments below (and please don't ask me for all the stats etc - I've actually got a job and am already feeling guilty about all the skiving I've done on this site. Remember, this is a comments and opinions type post, if I had to write a formal paper, my approach would be different). Anyway, at the risk of royally hacking you off, a few comments/ opinions below, most of which I'm sure you will think the purest rubbish.

"I'm afraid that the reason you might not be getting through is that you seem to find views differing from your own almost uniformly absurd."

Not at all, I simply see little relevance in appealing to abstract concepts in a debate that centres on some quite specific claims made by Mr. Liddle.

=> I'm afraid the whole point is to broaden the discussion (move towards the abstract) from what RL wrote. Your insistence on limiting comment to discussing specifically what RL wrote makes things difficult. At this point I'm no longer much interested in the specific content of RL's original post. It was a controversial thought starter. No more.

"- nonsensical, reactionary etc. That's your view, and you're welcome to it. Doesn't change the fact I feel angry about it."

Yes, I'd just like to know what precisly it is you feel angry about. Again, appeals to 'cohesiveness', or 'monocultural' don't seem to me to be illuminating. I accuse you of obfuscation - calls for 'cohesion' masking an intolorence of others based on race.

=> Actually what I was referring to being angry about was the PC brigade and their infuriating thought-police attitudes, from the petty like trying to sideline christmas, or the union jack, to shouting "racist" as a means of silencing opponents, and all that other good stuff. Having said that, the evidence that some race/ immigrant groups either commit more crimes, or cause more friction in society by their presence in large numbers seems pretty clear to me. This is just a personal judgement (no doubt absurd, reactionary, nonsensical...). Think young black males & violence in London. Think deliberate shying away from integration and engagement with society by muslims throughout Western Europe. The odious ghettoisation of cities - the causes of which I know are manifold. Point is I don't have a problem with race or religion, but with behaviour. For the black community I know full well, as do most people with half a brain, that problems are limited to a pretty small demographic within it. In the case of muslim behaviour, the problems are wider, and in their way, rather more worrying for future societal cohesion in my opinion. I remember seeing a statistic a few years back that "only" 12% of muslims in the UK thought Bin Laden's actions were justifiable. "Only" 12%? Give me strength!! And please don't hold me to the 12% figure - if it was just 1% it would still be too many. In any case it proved enough to spawn our very own evil home grown terrorists. Just great. Oh, by the way, it's difficult to express how angry I feel about that.

"- monocultural or almost monocultural, off the top of my head: check out some of the Scandie countries, further afield some of the asian countries spring to mind. They might not actually be monocultural, but the point is they have not been subjected to mass imigration."

Again, I find it difficult to ascertain precisly what is meant by 'mass imigration'. Is it merely an arbitrary amount of 'immigration' at which you would draw the line?

=> Yes, exactly. Many would say (and I'm one of them) that the arbitrary line has already been crossed. I wouldn't say necessarily totally stop imigration, but not too far off it.

"- cohesiveness, yep, it's to do with behaviour alright."

Then why bring race into it at all?

=> in my mind it is only indirectly linked with race, in particular when sections of society which can be identified by race or religion cause or appear to cause more than their fair share of "problems". Any thought that the behaviour of individual racial or religious groups which fail to integrate with mainstream society, and/or become ghettoised and therefore remain "visible" in their own right will not be subject to scrutiny and compared to the norm is just utopian nonsense.

"- your ideas that crime cannot be linked to a group by race even when the stats show it, and that there is no problem for the police in tackling crime linked to certain race groups are your own dogma. Stick with it, eventually it might come true."

Its not that I deny the 'stats', but that I don't see how this helps anyone fight crime. Rod offers no pointers, merely intimates some connection between race and horrible crimes, leaving us to fight over the implications.

=> again, you just go back to the details of RL's original post. To get anywhere, you'll need to broaden your thinking to the dreaded abstract. I also didn't know RL was in some way obliged to provide a solution.

"I'll take it as read that you believe this is all absurd reactionary nonsense. Which is perfectly fine with me."

No, this is more cogent than usual.

=> Really? I imagine you might revise this view now.

"Lastly, more generally the overall discussion between all the posters above (if that's what it is, not sure about that) is done no favours at all by the liberal-left tendency to (i) refuse to acknowledge that concerns held by many have any legitimacy whatsoever, and (ii) insist on literal readings of anything that can be construed as going against their ideas rather than having the sense to think about "what someone may really have been getting at". "

Whilst you feel that this 'liberal left' tendancy is somehow misinformed, I feel that it addresses precisly what is at issue here - namely what Rod Liddle has written. I wouldn't presume to speculate on 'what he was getting at', but on what he wrote. My admonishments over the 'absurdity' of some posts is based on their retreat into abstraction. If they were more specific, I would be more able to point out what precisly I take issue with.

=> again, maybe you should "start presuming" - just going over the contents of RL's original post is getting a bit old. In my view the way the liberal left pander to the PC doctrine, deliberately excluding many from voicing their views, just shouting them down, calling them names, is part of the problem not part of the solution.

HairyNoddy

Ms Spinks - As far as I'm concerned the main issue is the amount of damage which has been caused to the long suffering British society by mass immigration and multiculturalism, and how to prevent further damage.

From there, we can decide how best to punish those who inflicted this mess on us all.

CaptainZlog

David Lindsay December 5th, 12:31pm

I agree (to an extent) with your post.

I lived in the West Indies (BVI) for 2 years. In that time, although I witnessed and experienced plenty of 'racism', I never once felt threatened or intimidated in the entire 2 years I lived there, even though often I would be the only White man in crowds of Black people.

Having been on the receiving end of violence and criminality from young Black men in the UK, which is, hugely disproportionate, I have often wondered what the problem with so many young Black men in the UK is.

One of the things that was different on the island I lived on, was that the people were very religious. Every Sunday morning everybody was in church.

Also, as you mention, by British standards, the schools in the West Indies have pretty harsh discipline.

I doubt this provides the entire explanation, but I would be very surprised if they were not significant factors.

Nevertheless, the little island I lived on, was, although majority Black, about as proportionally multi ethnic as Britain.

But it wasn't multicultural.

Unfortunately, that positive influence of West Indian culture (religion) gets watered down in Britain, as it must as it comes into conflict with all the other cultures, and, the harsh discipline in school does not exist at all.

Although I might be accused of creating a straw man here, it seems to me, that the Left really don't like religion. And, they don’t like harsh discipline in school.

Now, I come from an agnostic family. But I appreciate that religion does an awful lot of people a lot more good than harm.

So, the two aspects of culture that I could identify as being different in the West Indies as compared to the UK, that might affect violence and criminality amongst young Black men, are both aspects of culture that the left don't like, and either get diluted, or do not exist at all in the UK.

And, it is far more difficult to maintain a strong Christian culture in a multicultural society, than it is in a strongly Christian uni-culture.

So, IMHO, Rod Liddle mentioning these crimes in the context of 'multiculturalism' is fair enough.

However, of course, the BVI is not Jamaica, and I gather Jamaica is deeply religious, has harsh discipline in school, but is still insanely violent.

AC

Literacy can never disguise stupidity, absurdity and lack of clear thought with proper analysis. (do I need another comma)

We are good at Henglish we are arnt we.

Anyway, we will soon have a black Prime Minister who will do what is required to be done in the UK. Action not reaction. Cup of tea?

Ladeda

Look, there is no problem with young black males in this country. Rap music is not vile and misogynist. Welfare does work. Single parents produce better behaved children than married couples (check out university and prison population for verification). Prison should always be a last option and doesn’t work anyway. Gun violence is exaggerated, knife crime is miniscule and going down. The streets are safe. Gangs are no different than the Women’s Institute. All schools are institutionally racist. Colonialism will never go away. Please, Rod, do not take away my liberal toys.

hiro

When I hear people say, "The damage caused by mass migration", I sometimes suspect taht what constitutes damage to them is not the crime and the problems of intergration, but just the, to them, the horrific site of a load of darkies in certain areas.

Sarah

'Because, "Sarah", people like Rod fill the debate with lies, distortions, and grotesque stereotypes.' - No, he doesn't. That's just your nasty little spin.

'This makes things more difficult for the people who are genuinely working to combat criminality'. No it doesn't. It's just a harmless bit of satire.

'it makes things worse. It's not very complicated - why are you having so much difficulty getting your head around it?'

Because it doesn't make things worse. It's just a complete non-sequitur on your part to try to close down people talking about the truth.

'Or do you think it's NOT a lie or distortion to call it "not an anomaly" for young black men to try and murder pregnant women?'

But that isn't what Rod said. That's just you twisting his words out of context.

That attempted murder was not an anomaly in the sense that 'the overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community.'

You notice how you conveniently forgot that bit, Ludlow?

'Or to say having multiple cultures in this country gives us nothing but violence, goat curry and rap?'

Where does it say this, Ludlow? You're making things up. Again.

hiro

but i could be wrong, of course.

JP

"=> JP, you certainly are one persistent individual, which I applaud. Personally however, I'm not sure we can get much further on this, but more comments below (and please don't ask me for all the stats etc - I've actually got a job and am already feeling guilty about all the skiving I've done on this site. Remember, this is a comments and opinions type post, if I had to write a formal paper, my approach would be different). Anyway, at the risk of royally hacking you off, a few comments/ opinions below, most of which I'm sure you will think the purest rubbish."

“=> JP, you certainly are one persistent individual, which I applaud. Personally however, I'm not sure we can get much further on this, but […] at the risk of royally hacking you off, a few comments/ opinions below, most of which I'm sure you will think the purest rubbish.”
Agreed.
“=> I'm afraid the whole point is to broaden the discussion (move towards the abstract) from what RL wrote. Your insistence on limiting comment to discussing specifically what RL wrote makes things difficult. At this point I'm no longer much interested in the specific content of RL's original post. It was a controversial thought starter. No more.”
You will note that our exchange was instigated in response to you stating that you were ‘a bit confused’ by those who were angered by RL’s post. My response demonstrated clearly and cogently why such flippant comments could lead some to conclude that they were needlessly inflammatory. What he wrote is at issue, not the ‘controversial thought’ it has prompted.
“Actually what I was referring to being angry about was the PC brigade and their infuriating thought-police attitudes, from the petty like trying to sideline christmas, or the union jack, to shouting "racist" as a means of silencing opponents, and all that other good stuff.”
These are things which seem to have nothing to do with attempted murder, racially aggravated or otherwise. I disagree with your reading of society, but by all means voice it. I don’t think it’s at all relevant to our disagreement however.
“Having said that, the evidence that some race/ immigrant groups either commit more crimes, or cause more friction in society by their presence in large numbers seems pretty clear to me.”
Again, I disagree with your interpretation. The stats don’t show that ‘some race immigrant/ groups’ commit more crimes per se, just certain types of crime. This, I believe, has more to do with enfranchisement than it does with race. Also ‘friction in society’ could be just as easily caused by those who resent having these individuals in ‘their’ country.
“Point is I don't have a problem with race or religion, but with behaviour. For the black community I know full well, as do most people with half a brain, that problems are limited to a pretty small demographic within it.”
Why do you feel it useful to define these issues in relation to race then? I think there are more obvious correlatives to pick from.
“In the case of muslim behaviour, the problems are wider, and in their way, rather more worrying for future societal cohesion in my opinion. I remember seeing a statistic a few years back that "only" 12% of muslims in the UK thought Bin Laden's actions were justifiable. "Only" 12%? Give me strength!! And please don't hold me to the 12% figure - if it was just 1% it would still be too many. In any case it proved enough to spawn our very own evil home grown terrorists. Just great. Oh, by the way, it's difficult to express how angry I feel about that.”
Well I’m sorry you’re so irate, but this has nothing to do with our discussion.
“Again, I find it difficult to ascertain precisly what is meant by 'mass imigration'. Is it merely an arbitrary amount of 'immigration' at which you would draw the line?
Yes, exactly. Many would say (and I'm one of them) that the arbitrary line has already been crossed. I wouldn't say necessarily totally stop imigration, but not too far off it.”
Well I’m glad we’ve found our true point of disagreement. As you will see above, I’m all for the movement of peoples round the planet. I think it makes it a more interesting, and no more dangerous, place to live.
“=> in my mind it[behaviour] is only indirectly linked with race, in particular when sections of society which can be identified by race or religion cause or appear to cause more than their fair share of "problems".”
So that’s what Rod’s doing then? I thought he was identifying a specific ‘culture’ with criminal dispositions?
“To get anywhere, you'll need to broaden your thinking to the dreaded abstract. I also didn't know RL was in some way obliged to provide a solution.”
To get anywhere? Where am I supposed to ‘get to’? Presumably you mean to get to a position where I recognise the truth of that which you are telling me. This is something you must persuade me of, as must RL if he seriously desires to influence my ideological position. He’s not obliged to provide a solution, but he is obliged to be judged on what he has written.
“=> maybe you should "start presuming" - just going over the contents of RL's original post is getting a bit old.”
Agreed, it was a terribly written gobbit from a terribly second rate journalist.
“In my view the way the liberal left pander to the PC doctrine, deliberately excluding many from voicing their views, just shouting them down, calling them names, is part of the problem not part of the solution.”
I have called you no names, merely offered a clarification of what I feel was wrong with RL’s post. That your responses have become ever more abstract and grand in gesture – appealing to some intangible zeitgeist of despair – demonstrates to me the lack of sense contained in RL’s original post, and in responses such as yours which try to rationalise it.

"I'm afraid that the reason you might not be getting through is that you seem to find views differing from your own almost uniformly absurd."

Not at all, I simply see little relevance in appealing to abstract concepts in a debate that centres on some quite specific claims made by Mr. Liddle.

=> I'm afraid the whole point is to broaden the discussion (move towards the abstract) from what RL wrote. Your insistence on limiting comment to discussing specifically what RL wrote makes things difficult. At this point I'm no longer much interested in the specific content of RL's original post. It was a controversial thought starter. No more.

"- nonsensical, reactionary etc. That's your view, and you're welcome to it. Doesn't change the fact I feel angry about it."

Yes, I'd just like to know what precisly it is you feel angry about. Again, appeals to 'cohesiveness', or 'monocultural' don't seem to me to be illuminating. I accuse you of obfuscation - calls for 'cohesion' masking an intolorence of others based on race.

=> Actually what I was referring to being angry about was the PC brigade and their infuriating thought-police attitudes, from the petty like trying to sideline christmas, or the union jack, to shouting "racist" as a means of silencing opponents, and all that other good stuff. Having said that, the evidence that some race/ immigrant groups either commit more crimes, or cause more friction in society by their presence in large numbers seems pretty clear to me. This is just a personal judgement (no doubt absurd, reactionary, nonsensical...). Think young black males & violence in London. Think deliberate shying away from integration and engagement with society by muslims throughout Western Europe. The odious ghettoisation of cities - the causes of which I know are manifold. Point is I don't have a problem with race or religion, but with behaviour. For the black community I know full well, as do most people with half a brain, that problems are limited to a pretty small demographic within it. In the case of muslim behaviour, the problems are wider, and in their way, rather more worrying for future societal cohesion in my opinion. I remember seeing a statistic a few years back that "only" 12% of muslims in the UK thought Bin Laden's actions were justifiable. "Only" 12%? Give me strength!! And please don't hold me to the 12% figure - if it was just 1% it would still be too many. In any case it proved enough to spawn our very own evil home grown terrorists. Just great. Oh, by the way, it's difficult to express how angry I feel about that.

"- monocultural or almost monocultural, off the top of my head: check out some of the Scandie countries, further afield some of the asian countries spring to mind. They might not actually be monocultural, but the point is they have not been subjected to mass imigration."

Again, I find it difficult to ascertain precisly what is meant by 'mass imigration'. Is it merely an arbitrary amount of 'immigration' at which you would draw the line?

=> Yes, exactly. Many would say (and I'm one of them) that the arbitrary line has already been crossed. I wouldn't say necessarily totally stop imigration, but not too far off it.

"- cohesiveness, yep, it's to do with behaviour alright."

Then why bring race into it at all?

=> in my mind it is only indirectly linked with race, in particular when sections of society which can be identified by race or religion cause or appear to cause more than their fair share of "problems". Any thought that the behaviour of individual racial or religious groups which fail to integrate with mainstream society, and/or become ghettoised and therefore remain "visible" in their own right will not be subject to scrutiny and compared to the norm is just utopian nonsense.

"- your ideas that crime cannot be linked to a group by race even when the stats show it, and that there is no problem for the police in tackling crime linked to certain race groups are your own dogma. Stick with it, eventually it might come true."

Its not that I deny the 'stats', but that I don't see how this helps anyone fight crime. Rod offers no pointers, merely intimates some connection between race and horrible crimes, leaving us to fight over the implications.

=> again, you just go back to the details of RL's original post. To get anywhere, you'll need to broaden your thinking to the dreaded abstract. I also didn't know RL was in some way obliged to provide a solution.

"I'll take it as read that you believe this is all absurd reactionary nonsense. Which is perfectly fine with me."

No, this is more cogent than usual.

=> Really? I imagine you might revise this view now.

"Lastly, more generally the overall discussion between all the posters above (if that's what it is, not sure about that) is done no favours at all by the liberal-left tendency to (i) refuse to acknowledge that concerns held by many have any legitimacy whatsoever, and (ii) insist on literal readings of anything that can be construed as going against their ideas rather than having the sense to think about "what someone may really have been getting at". "

Whilst you feel that this 'liberal left' tendancy is somehow misinformed, I feel that it addresses precisly what is at issue here - namely what Rod Liddle has written. I wouldn't presume to speculate on 'what he was getting at', but on what he wrote. My admonishments over the 'absurdity' of some posts is based on their retreat into abstraction. If they were more specific, I would be more able to point out what precisly I take issue with.

=> again, maybe you should "start presuming" - just going over the contents of RL's original post is getting a bit old. In my view the way the liberal left pander to the PC doctrine, deliberately excluding many from voicing their views, just shouting them down, calling them names, is part of the problem not part of the solution.

JP

whoops, dunno what happend there. still, you get the gist.

HairyNoddy

"I sometimes suspect taht what constitutes damage to them is not the crime and the problems of intergration, but just the, to them, the horrific site of a load of darkies in certain areas."

So you acknowledge that theres an increase in crime levels associated with immigration, but you don't think that's a good enough reason for British people to want it to end?

Why not?

London Exile

A very bold statement Mr Liddle, very bold, very controversial and most of all very polarising.

Recently, did not an HSBC banker attempt to kill his pregnant mistress, did we cry out against his choice of employment, race or culture?

Did he not plan it and use great guile in the same way these two enfants terrible did theirs?

When pedophiles conduct their activities, do we claim there is a racial element to their crimes?

I find your statement crass and beg you to either explain in more detail why you think that;

1. Knife crime doesn't occur in other London communities. Have you been to Bow or Isle of Dogs?

2. That you think that the African-Caribbean community is some singular entity or indeed a community?

The problem is less about the number of knife crimes than about the current focus of news being on that particular type of crime; at the moment. It is populous and hence you feel a heightened sense of hysteria or anxiety about it.

You are forgiven for being affected by the media hysteria, but not for being quick to judge or attempt to cultivate yet another negative stereotype, however true to your perception that may be.

Please write a more sensible and importantly more balanced article.

Jabba the Cat

Rod is only articulating in print what everyone on the street knows. It is only "multicultural" idiots like Diane Abbott and the rest of the PC industry that try to get mileage out of burying the truth in such matters.

Ludlow Spinks

No "Sarah", I'm not twisting Rod's words out of context at all. The context is ALL important.

The context of reducing the culture and lives of every immigrant into this country - "multi-cultural britain" - to a brutal crime, goat curry and rap music is what we are talking about. That is the context Rod wants this debate to take place in. And so that is the context in which we are discussing it.

If you want the debate to take place in a sensible context where we talk about the real lives of real people, then start a debate with that tone, as so many, many other people want to do.

But if you want the debate to take place in a cynical, nasty fashion, then start it in a cynical, nasty fashion like Rod did.

Nobody's censoring anyone, nobody's saying anyone's opinion should not be heard. I can't speak for anyone else, but I'm just having a bit of fun with the easily-riled, like - I imagine - Rod thought he was having when he posted his original little splattering of bilge.

You get the debate you deserve, and Rod deserves nothing more than a fat, wet raspberry blown in his face for his joke writing and joke politics.

neil

Thank you Rod for pointing out some uncomfortable truths for certain sections of our ethnic minorities. Its not right wing or fascist to do so as the liberal intelligencia would have us believe, sittimg in their mansions pontificating what a great and diverse society we live in. The average person in the street feels let down and betrayed by the aforementioned with a swing to the right the inevitable outcome.

AC

Here here Ludlow...Spectator please give this man a job, the rest are just pseudo intellects..

Ludlow Spinks

It's only a matter of time before we get the full sulky schoolboy "sorry sir, didn't mean it sir" from Rod, just as we did over his even more pathetic misogyny not so very long ago.

He tries so very hard, bless him, but he can't even upset the liberals successfully. Silly boy.

Dan

It's all true. People need to stop being so bloody PC. I think Liddle should do a press conference and just say 'F U all'.

James Smith

Ignorant judgementalism and false statistics. Ah well, it is the Spectator!

Wilhelm

Proud African Female
December 7th, 2009 10:54am

Its srange how English people dont call themselves '' Im a proud white male.'' This woman must have low self esteem issues.

Malcolm

HairyNoddy: "As for the charge that only whites were involved in terrorist activity in 2003/2004, I'm sure that even a halfwit like yourself hasn't forgotten what happened in 2005 and who was responsible. I'm sure I haven't."

^Your non-sequitur of a response is truly derisible. I'm sure even a halfwit like
yourself can count from 1 to 5. 200'3' and 200'4' are just that: 2003 and 2004. What ever point you're trying to make about 2005 is a matter for you and has no bearing whatsoever on the premise, which you have yet to refute.

As for the obvious truth of the stats (judging from your hurt reaction) let me reiterate, and remember - I'm only the messenger:

"In the year 2003/4 in England and Wales (table 5.1 pg38), of the 1.3 million people arrested for notifiable charges, 1.1 million were white! Only 116,000 were Black.

"Table 3.8 (pg 22) spells it out clearly that of the 766 total homicides committed by sharp instrument (i.e knives aka knife crime) over the 3 year period from 2001 to 2004 in England and Wales combined, 556 were committed by white people. Only 102 were committed by Black people.

"Of the 1,359 people cautioned for sexual offences in 2003 in England and Wales, 84.8% were white (it wasn't made clear whether or not this data included peadophiles). Of the 29,619 people arrested for sexual offences, a whopping 79.4% were white (again, it wasn't made clear whether or not this data included peadophiles).

"Table 3.7 (pg 22) shows that of the 1,943 white people killed in that 3 year time period, 521 died at the hands of a family member, as compared to 54 for Blacks (out of 265), and 50 (out of 168) for Asians (and that's with honour killings included).

"Of the total 2,605 murder suspects (b/w 2001 and 2004 in England & Wales), 1,491 were white; only 252 were Black.

"Ninety-two per cent of White victims were killed by suspects from the same ethnic group. The corresponding proportions, i.e. victims and suspects being from the same ethnic group, were lower for Asian people (66%) and Black people (56%)...1,787 white people (92% of the 1,943 murdered) were killed by other white people. Whereas only 148 Black people (56% of the 265 murdered), across England and Wales over a three year period, were the victims of so called
Black on Black crime."

Again, don't take my word for it, see here - http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/s95race04.pdf

Louise

Err, it's curried goat actually, not goat curry. Goat curry just sounds daft.

Malcolm

Oh and hairynoddy, as for your point - based on the 2001 to 2004 Gvmt stats for England & Wales - that "they (whites) apparently only commit 1491 / 2605 of the murders, which is 57%." Well, based on those same figures, only 9.7% can be attributed to Blacks (252/2605). So I'm not too sure what point it is you were trying to make. Anybody seriously interested in tackling crime would surely focus with greatest scrutiny, more on the people responsible for 57% of total murders than on those responsible for 9.7%. Wouldn't you agree? But such is the karmic irony, stupidity and self-defeating nature of racism that you inadvertently adandon and ignore the plight of your own people (57% of total murders were committed by white ppl in that time period; 92% were white on white), and instead choose to focus all of your being on the 9.7% of total murders committed by Blacks. Carry on oh hairy one I say. The logical conclusion of all this unhealthy focus, ironically, can only lead to the ultimate preservation of Blacks. Both in terms of longevity and much more. You think Obama is an accident? You
want to take a closer look at the African community my friend (in the City and next door to you), and see that which you've chosen to ignore for so long, for fear of dissimulation and internal conflict. But who is going to stop the white devolution? Certainly not you, because as far as you and your kind are concerned, no problem exists in the white community, let's blame it all on the Blacks, right?

peter

Louise , me and my mates often have a chicken curry rather than a curried chicken...are we grammatically incorrect then ?

HairyNoddy

Malcy: How about dealing with the point I made, using your own statistics as you tried to make the that white people are more violent than blacks, that only 57% of the murders committed in the period you refer to were by whites? When they make up 90% of the population, aren't you surprised by this? I'm sure you are

Stuart Seacole Smith

Hi JP at 6.00pm, no probs, I got the gist. And many thanks again for the ongoing insistence that I should better order my thoughts. I haven't received such admonishment in years! Some people would pay good money for it I'm sure.

Overall, I'm fairly satisfied that I've had the opportunity to air my views, I've had a fair crack of the whip and all that. I don't really have a lot more to say... except on some points that I thought worth responding to....(!)

You agree that I talk a load of the purest rubbish.
=> Okidokes, no probs. I think you talk rubbish too, for what it may be worth.

That you provided cogent arguments.
=> unquestioned, you did. Just misguided, that's all.

Your comment that the fact that I'm "irate" (actually, that word doesn't even begin to get near how I feel) about issues related to multiculturalism and it's role in fomenting homegrown islamic terrorism and mass murder have nothing to do with our discussion.
=> wrong. For me it has absolutely everything to do with it. In spite of your weirdly narrow (and self servingly so) interpretation of RL's post, this "discussion" was always about a wider picture. Please wake up to that.

You're glad about having found our true point of disagreement [about mass imigration - you say bring it on, the more the better]
=> I'm glad we found it too, and I fervently hope something will be done about it, and double quick. I say enough's enough, give people a chance to live some kind of settled life... on our seriously overcrowded island - just driving to Tesco is a flippin nightmare these days. Enjoy your "winter festival" shopping everyone.

You ask "where you have to get to", and suggest that it is something I will have to persuade you of.
=> That's a jolly profound question. I'm glad you asked it, but despite what you may think, I'm not so grand as to believe that this is within my ability to answer, or to persuade you of. You'll have to work that one out for yourself, as we all do. But I hope it will be a more positive, and less obstructionist, place than you are now.

You said that you think RL is a 2nd rate journo.
=> Fine for you, each to their own and all that. You base this on your favourite little "gobbit" I assume. Perhaps a few other gobbits, who knows? But you're missing out. I like his posts/ rants/ gobbledygook. Makes me laugh a fair old bit, which I can tell you is a lot more than I can say for most of the hopeless saddo left wing miseryguts journos out there, and unfortunately also the myriad depressingly uniform lefty tv comedians, which pathetically enough, is most of them. They do make me laugh sometimes when they go off-message though, thank god.
=> Also, for what it may be worth I don't believe for one second that RL's the racist bigot (and didn't you say "fruit" earlier? Whatever that was supposed to mean) that you and yours try to paint him as. Check out some of his other "gobbits". You never know, you might even crack a smile!

On the point that you never called me any names.
=> I never said you did! Ever so grateful that you refrained though - earlier on in our little exchange I must admit that I wondered whether at some point you might - after all, it would've been more or less par for the course in this kind of discussion. What I was actually "getting at" (shock! I didn't explicitly say it) was that liberal-left wingers more generally - and especially greens come to think of it - have an absolutely vile habit of labelling those who disagree with them and somehow seeking to make the voiceing of their views "inconceivable for any right thinking person", even though those views may be not only perfectly conceivable, but actually completely reasonable. I can't tell you how fed up with all this I am. And I know I'm not alone.

Frank P

Rod is a NuLab Stasi Special Branch (NLSSB) undercover agent and wrote this provocative little satirical piece to discover how many racists could dance on the head of a pin (and their email addresses). Now they know where you all live. Be afraid ... be very afraid!

Frank P

Louise

"Err, it's curried goat actually, not goat curry. Goat curry just sounds daft."

I dunno about that; my pet billy-goat enjoys curry. Refuses to eat anything but chicken vindaloo, though. Terrible! Particularly when you consider that he shares a barn with the hens.

Ludlow Spinks

If one great thing has come out of this it is that I have been alerted to the talents of "Stuart Seacole Smith" as the razor sharp satirist that Rod Liddle could never be.

"Enjoy Winter Festival" indeed. Truly brilliant. Stunning. Thankyou.

Hannah

Ludlow Spinks: ‘I'm not twisting Rod's words out of context at all.’

Well, given the amount of stuff you’ve made up so far on this thread, you would say that, wouldn’t you?

‘The context is ALL important.’

Yes. So why have you been making things up that Rod didn’t say?

You say: ‘The context of reducing the culture and lives of every immigrant into this country - "multi-cultural britain" - to a brutal crime, goat curry and rap music is what we are talking about.’

No. You have made that up and having done so have the nerve to say Rod Liddle has told us all a ‘big fat lie‘.

Rod said of the brutal crime: ‘It could be an anomaly, of course. But it isn’t. The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community.’

That bears no relation to what you keep making up. You have set out on this blog to say that Rod Liddle has told ‘outright lies’ and that he said ‘young black men attempting to murder pregnant women is NOT AN ANOMALY’. It’s not an anomaly in the context of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London, which is why Rod included all those things. He never made remarks solely about murdering pregnant women. That’s just you, Ludlow.

You say context is all important, so why rip it out of the context it was put in if not to smear?

Here you are doing it again: ‘Do you agree with Rod, when he says that young black men trying to kill a pregnant woman is not an anomaly?’ But he never said that.

‘And do you believe that the only benefits of multiculturalism are "goat curry and rap music"?’ Another thing Rod Liddle never said.

It’s progress of a sort, I suppose, that you accept that rap music and goat curry are benefits (where you got the ‘only’ from I don’t know, oh, yeah, that’s right, you just made it up) because elsewhere goat curry and rap music, according to you ‘combined grotesque reductionist racial stereotyping ("goat curry and rap music")’.

If someone says ‘I’ve just bought a rap album and enjoyed a goat curry’ they ‘haven’t combined grotesque reductionist racial stereotyping’.

You say ‘I'm just having a bit of fun’. You‘ll point out the jokes in this for us then: ‘Of course this is racism. It's a big fat lie about a social group, based on their race. It's incitement to racial hatred, it's propaganda, and it's absolute tripe.’

I think we can take it that no-one’s ever paid you to tell ‘jokes’. Sounds more like one of those phoney self-aggrandising chuckles the pompous make to themselves.

Ludlow (again): ‘Despite his feeble attempt in the Diane Abbot discussion to say "it was MEANT to be sardonic" nobody else takes what he's saying as humorous in any way.’

Oh, really? Kwasi Kwarteng recognises it for sarcasm: “In return for all this crime, says Liddle, the black community has given Britain 'rap music, goat curry and a far more vibrant and diverse understanding of cultures which were once alien to us. For which, many thanks'. (Sarcasm is one of Liddle's trademarks).”

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-1234026/KWASI-KWARTENG-Rap-music-goat-curry-crying-racism-wont-help-beat-black-crime.html

Not doing very well here, are you, Ludlow?

You write all this drivel and then say you don‘t want the ‘debate to take place in a cynical, nasty fashion’? Who do you think you’re kidding?

You’ve accused someone of being a racist, of telling lies and of a criminal offence - and you haven’t got a shred of evidence to back it up.

This is you, Ludlow: ‘What he said was that young black men attempting to brutally kill a pregnant woman was not an anomaly, and that goat curry and rap music are the only benefits of having many cultures in this country.’

If you genuinely didn‘t want the ‘debate to take place in a cynical, nasty fashion’ then you would have stuck to the evidence instead of making that up.

The facts didn’t suit your ends so you’ve been reduced to making things up as you go along.

Do run along to the Comedy Store. I don’t want to deprive the paying punters of the heir to Charlie Chaplin.

And do tell us where we can get tickets to see you.

(PS, Ludlow, that last bit was sarcasm. Kwasi Kwarteng will tell you all about it.)

Ludlow Spinks

nb everyone can see Rod was attempting sarcasm.

That doesn't change the fact that an article entitled "benefits of a multi-cultural Britain" reduces all those cultures - ALL OF THEM - to goat curry, rap and a brutal attempted murder.

How is sarcasm (the lowest form of wit) a get-out clause?

Put it this way: I ask "What have the chinks ever done for us? Cheap spring rolls? BRILLIANT, CHEERS FOR THAT!"

But oh, it can't be racist, BECAUSE IT'S SARCASTIC, SEE?

(I'm using sarcasm here, can you tell)

Katy

Mark of Edmonton:
Thanks for the offer of a flat swap, but I already live in Walthamstow, so I get it.
Thanks anyway.

Tom Pride

Hannah
December 9th, 2009 8:38am

Thanks for pointing out that article by Kwasi Kwarteng. A lot of good sense and putting the blame fair and square on where most of it should be put – the bien-pensant, collectivist, statist, chattering classes who have taken so much care to ensure that they and their own have not been impacted by the policies they have implemented and forced on others.

I would take issue with one point that Kwasi Kwarteng and others have made, when Rod wrote, “Of course, in return, we have rap music, goat curry and a far more vibrant and diverse understanding of cultures which were once alien to us. For which, many thanks.”, this was not necessarily what Rod believes.

It was a satirical attack on the bien-pensant, collectivist elite who when telling us what the benefits of a multicultural society are, repeat the facile “diversity” (that is like saying rain is good because it is precipitation from the sky), “understanding foreign cultures” and “ethnic food”. Hence my reference to Jack Straw and Chicken Tikka Masala above.

You might have noticed that in the comments above there are no other benefits listed. Plenty of cons but no pros. Ludlow Spinks actually ignored a request to provide some and then turn it around by asking that others should deny that they believe there are no benefits.

I in fact do not believe that Rod feels there are no benefits to our society arising from other cultures. He could make a darn site better job of making this case than those who have attacked him with such bile above.

AC

Last one did not make it so how does this one sound?...

"It could be an anomaly, of course. But it isn’t. The overwhelming majority of crimes of sexual violence in UK is carried out by frustrated white British men most of which look like the originator of the first post and can't approach women or men appropriately. Of course, in return, we have alcoholics, fish n chips, shepherds pie, obesity and no culture. For which, many thanks."

At the top I would paste a link of the doctor who tried to kill his pregnant lover with poison under the caption Filthy Humans.

If this does not get through this time, I will just post it elsewhere on the net.

Keith

The question is not whether Rod is a racist. The question is whether it is is true that, as Rod says, "The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community."
If it is true, no criticism can be made of him.

rod liddle

Forget arguing with Ludlow Spinks - he is as thick as a plate of mince and therefore impervious to debate. He has no grasp of concepts and no grasp of objectivity; no understanding, no power of reasoning, nothing. And he's a shockingly bad writer, although that matters less, I suppose.

Chink in my Armour

rudrow is the best.. down with lod riddle

Anyone see the BIG elephant in the room.. posting by AC 11.36am

(Dr) A. Reginald

Congratulations, Rod Liddle, for daring to tell the truth about black crime. Hugely impressive that you had the guts to! The statistics back you up big time, but most people dare not mention it publicly, in the prevailing climate of stifling political correctness. You deserve a very large round of applause indeed.

Marcus Brutus

No one is pretending that there isn't an issue with young black men in some parts of London. If Mr Liddle’s comments are such an incredible revelation, then did I imagine programmes such as the Operation Trident and the government’s recently launched REACH programme to provide better role models for young black men? There is no politically correct conspiracy of silence over this issue.

But the reason that Mr Liddle’s ramblings are racist is not because he comments on London crime statistics, it is the jump he makes from those statastics to reducing black contribution to society to curried goat and rap music as the “benefits of a multicultural BRITAIN in FULL". Well, my poor mother must have imagined slogging her guts out in NHS hospitals and I must have imagined paying my taxes all these years.

This is the kind of extrapolation ignorant, small-minded bigots make from the reprehensible actions of certain individuals to denigrating black people as a whole. And believe me, I should know.

Furthermore, multicultural Britain hasn’t been up for debate for about 50 years - the only passports most of us have are British ones. So congratulations to Mr Liddle, he’s really at the cutting edge of social commentary. (Now that’s sarcasm for you.)

sebastian

My guess is that most people would feel safer if the Kray twins were in charge. Can't imagine them tolerating this species of vicious yob even though they themselves weren't exactly gentle with their rivals. Either way, I think they'd have a pretty cost-effective, swift method of sorting this.
Do we know the ethnicity of the girl's saviour?

Frank Jackson

Thank God Rod Liddle has the courage not to be intimidated by those who characterise any honest discussion of multiculturalism as "racist". Why do our political masters pander to foreign cultures which undermine British traditions? For example, how come immigrants to this country who have two wives are allowed to claim benefits for both? They should be told that's not the way we do things here. Vicious "honour" killings are just one example of the vile cultural habits that have been allowed to infect our country by pro-immigration politicians. It is not racist to stick up for one's own culture.

Melmoth Brannon

Please could we, just for once, have a justification for multiculturalism that doesn't mention foreign food? Talk about selling our birthright for a mess of pottage!

John Bull anti-vaccine

(Dr) A. Reginald -

"Congratulations, Rod Liddle, for daring to tell the truth about black crime....The statistics back you up big time..."

But they don't do they as both I and Malcolm, amongst others, have clearly indicated several times on this thread.

Keith - ""The question is not whether Rod is a racist. The question is whether it is is true that, as Rod says, "The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community."
If it is true, no criticism can be made of him.""

It isn't true. The majority of crime in this country is committed by White people. The link to the crime figures are statistics are printed elsewhere and extensively detailed by Malcom. Perhaps you should read this thread. But being a sloppy journalist who is willing to print nonsense with no figures to support his claims is not the only, "criticism that can be made of him." He's a racist for his poor stereotyping of young Black men in this country and for claiming that it isn't anomalous for young Black men to carry out this sort of attack.

Ludlow Spinks

OK I don't know if it was the different computer I was using today that was preventing my posts appearing or if I have been finally blocked, but:

Don't give up so easily, Rod. You're supposed to be the badboy of liberal baiting, don't just roll over and admit defeat like that. Come on, tell me that I'm wrong. Tell me that you DIDN'T say that young black murdering pregnant women is not anomalous, or that the "Benefits of multi-cultural Britain" can be boiled down to extreme violence, goat curry and rap music.

Come on, stand your ground, don't be such a coward.

anyfool

the true irony is that you are speaking an actual truth

David Bouvier

John-Bull-Anti-Vaccine:

you are trying very hard are you. Rod's statistics on proportions of certain kinds of crime in the Metropolitan Police area are relatively easy to stand up.

I actually assumed Rod had mistated the disproportionate propensity to crime and was stunned to find that actually he is correct on at least some figures.

The Home Affairs select committee quotes Operation Trident research:

"58. In London, the overrepresentation of young black men in gun crime appears to be undisputed. Figures from Operation Trident, a Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) operation set up to combat shootings among black Londoners, show that, of all MPS firearms homicides and shootings in 2006, 75% of victims and 79% of suspects were black.[86].... Lee Jasper, The Mayor of London's race adviser, highlighted a "specific crisis" in black communities as regards the level of violence and death by guns and knives[88].

http://www.parliament.the-stationery-office.co.uk/pa/cm200607/cmselect/cmhaff/181/18105.htm

There are similar figures for knife crime, and though I haven't tracked them down yet I now suspect that Rod was quoting from a source for the others too.

Other stats showing mere disproproportion hardly help your case, but it looks pretty clear that on the charge of lying about the data Rod is owed an apology.

By all means go for him about inappropriate writing style or something.

john matthews

Just saw this headline on bbc news website, kind of guuessed who was likely to of committed the crime before I finished reading it :

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8404037.stm

Trisha

Well done, Rod for speaking the truth. I admire your courage, the rest of the press are spineless.
I had to deal with the afermath of a mugging involving an elderly man by a black thug... several elderly people were mugged. I used to live in Purley but I have moved away because it's now like Croydon.

John Bull anti-vaccine

David Bouvier –

I’m not trying very hard at all. I won’t be breaking into a sweat to dismiss your claims either. You say, “Rod’s statistics…” But he didn’t provide any did he? No quote, no link, just the staggering assertion that, “The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community.” So how is it that his, “statistics are easy to stand up,”?

To clarify, as I’ve said twice previously, White people commit the majority of crimes committed in this country, with the exception of so-called ‘mugging’. And this is borne out by the very first paragraph in your link to the report which states, “…..In 84.7% of offences in 2004-05 involving young offenders aged 10-17, the young people involved classified their ethnicity as white…..Robbery offences committed by black young people represent less than 0.5% of all offences overall.[16]”

But nevertheless you go on to compound your misunderstanding. Here’s what you quote from elsewhere in the report, “Figures from Operation Trident, a Metropolitan Police Service (MPS) operation set up to combat shootings among black Londoners, show that, of all MPS firearms homicides and shootings in 2006, 75% of victims and 79% of suspects were black.” So in a police group set up to look at ‘Black on Black gun crime’ (their description), they found that three quarters of Black victims and just over three quarters of Black suspects were Black. And your point is what exactly? Not why only 75% of victims and 79% of suspects were Black in a ‘Black on Black gun crime’ operation. No, you made a much more fundamental mistake – that these figures from a London operation (supposedly) focussing on Black people will inform you of the picture amongst all ethnicities. You clearly haven’t read elsewhere on this thread where Malcolm provides much more recent data. So here it is for you again. “So, according to the official stats, between 2001 and 2004 inclusive, 1,787 white people (92% of the 1,943 murdered) were killed by other white people. Whereas only 148 Black people (56% of the 265 murdered), across England and Wales over a three year period, were the victims of so called Black on Black crime.”

I’m afraid it’s not possible to take away from Liddle’s article that he was making a point about overrepresentation of Black youth in crime figures, no matter how much you want it to be the case. Nor, do I have a, “case”, other than the truth. I have no need to complain about Liddle’s writing, it is self-evidently pitiful. Had he had a point, his diatribe would have been taken up by the likes of The Daily Mail under the auspices of a journalist daring to say what the liberal intelligentsia dare not. But I see it seems more preoccupied with what shoes Suri Cruise is wearing; this story died a death the same day because it’s a non-story.

You’re right about just one thing though; an apology is owed, not by me, by Liddle to all young Black Londoners.

John Matthews – One alleged rapist is Black? Well I guess that’s Liddle proved right then!

David P

Dear mr. Liddle. For quite some time now I have followed you columns in The Sunday Times, and now your blog. I have to tell you, most respectfully, that you are the most annoying man in Britain. For this reason. Your CV,from Labour Party mamber and speechwriter to Today programme editor reads like a template for New Labour luvvy Chianti-shire holidaying politically correct quanqo-istas. However, despite this, I very rarely finding you writing anything but pretty solid, astute common sense, laced with a good deal of wit. As I say, very annoying.

Ludlow Spinks

Quite so, John Bull, quite so.

The word "overwhelming" is, of course, all important here too. It's a racists' favourite, second only to "flooded" in its dogwhistle qualities.

Rod is not (that) stupid that he doesn't know it presses the panic buttons, that it suggests a London OVERWHELMED by stabbing, raping black men. If he claims otherwise he is lying.

He could have used more measured language and he would have had a point that stands up about a problem with a violent culture about a certain section of young black men in London. But that, of course, wouldn't have been any good to him, would it? Because that wouldn't have allowed him to dismiss the benefits of multicultural Britain IN FULL. He needed the problem of crime to be described whereby the brutal crime described is normal ("not an anomaly") and there is no counterbalancing advantage to the presence of any single immigrant of any race in this country other than "goat curry and rap music" (I'm sure the Chinese and Indian and Polish and Spanish families and individuals who make up "multicultural Britain" too are fabulously grateful for his assessment of their contribution to our national life, eh?).

So, his statistics don't stack up, he has slandered ever single ethnic group in the country - not just young black men - for the crime of two men, and tied it all together with a ribbon of lies. Silly boy.

And what's Rod's response to my detailed and accurate criticism? "Everybody ignore Ludlow Spinks, he is horrid and stupid and he smells, I hate him I hate him I hate him!" Dear me, I can practically see his bottom lip wobble.

But Rod's feeble spluttering avoid-the-issue response reminds of the real elephant in the room:

He is the biggest, wettest, most feeble Islington dinner party hand-wringer of the lot of us, and we all know it. We've seen him on BBC4 panel shows and on Question Time, we know who and what he really is.

All of this gorblimey up-the-millwall I'm a badbwoy say-it-like-it-is willy-waving and ooh-mummy-I-done-a-poo shock tactics are simply part of the longest drawn-out, most feebly pathetic, most public midlife crisis of the modern age.

It would be tragic if it wasn't so funny.

forteanc

wow what can i say????? except its really sad and pathetic that in todays multi-cultural society there are people who walk around with blinkers on and randomly spout off their racist...sorry personal views to the public.........it hurts my eyes just reading it

ohh and Rod..........sort your life out mate

John

Thanks for that Rod, you dumbass

Dan Green

On the subject of multiculturalism and social breakdown one interesting study that seems to shed some light on the matter was done by Robert Putman back in 2001. He researched in various towns and cities throughout the United States and found that there was a direct correlation between the level of ethnic diversity in a place and social breakdown. The more diverse a town was the less people trusted one another, not only between ethnicities but within thier own ethnicity. There was less engagement in collective social action, less likelihood to vote, less happiness and greater dissatisfaction with life. This supports the supposition that he "anti-racists" find so objectionable, that multiculteralism itself causes crime and violence.

Being a good liberal Putnam the sat on his findings for 6 years. He tried every way he could think of to find alternative explanations to his findings but he could not. Eventually, to his (partial) credit he published the results in 2007.

Looking at the state of the world today this seems to tally. Many of the counties with the highest levels of murder, for example, are multiethnic states like South Africa, Venezuala and Colombia. Other counties like China, which has a history of poverty and oppression to rival any, Poland and South Korea, which have histories of suffering horrendously under imperialism, are both ethnicly relatively homogeneous and low murder rates.

The United States figures also back with up. In general the crime levels correspond to the level of prosperity. However the exections to this are wealthy and highly diverse states like Maryland and Hawaii on the one hand and on the other (relatively) poor and (relativly) unenriched states like Maine and West Virginia with low crime rates. This might further suggest that part of the reason for high crime rates in other low income states might be ethnic diversity rather than just poverty.

Of couse crime and social breakdown have many causes but that does not mean that muticuluralism and ethnic diversity should be let off the hook as a cause of social breakdown and violence.

Austin Barry

Ludlow Spinks 10 Dec. 10:26

Ludlow, relax old chap, you're losing face.

"There is nothing more galling to angry people than the coolness of those on whom they wish to vent their spleen." ~Alexandre Dumas

John Bull anti-vaccine

Dan Green - it seems you're another one who is commenting on what they would like to have read rather than what Rod Liddle actually wrote about.

To clarify then, Liddle wrote about London, not America or various states within it and about crime and multiculturalism, not about 'social breakdown'. Perhaps when you have a moment, you might like to actually comment on what he wrote and on the refutations put forward by Ludwlow Spinks, Malcolm and others on this page rather than a feeble attempt at bolstering a case which Liddle didn't make in the first place.

David Bouvier

John Bull Anti-Vaccine.

I'll keep it simple.

Rod said that an "overwhelming majority" of certain kinds of crime in London were committed by black men.

If you check the source, you will find that Operation Trident collated stats on all gun crime from across the MPS region and found the 4 out 5 incidents appeared to be perpetrated by black suspects.

Malcolm's data is about the UK, not about London. Rod made his claim for London.

I personally was shocked that Rod was right. I did not expect him to be. Though with London's population mix actually the relative propensities are only about 9:1.

By all means argue with the relevance of his point, the tone of his writing, or the appropriateness of quoting London vs whole-country statistics.

But why do you persist in trying to deny data that supports precisely the statement Rod made? Are you in denial about the statistics? Believe on faith that they must be in error? Or believe that the truth must be suppressed?

logdon

Parapets and heads come to mind but it had to be said.

The truth, no matter how unpalatable to the bleating trolls is the final arbiter.

The first use of Molotov Cocktails, (to those trolls, firebombs) on British Streets happened during the Brixton Riots. The first wholesale use was in the Northern Riots where Pakistani's hurled them with impunity.

Call me old fashioned, but is that not indicative of Third World debating techniques being imported by ingrate immigree's, thus validating Rod's claim?

I say ingrate because you can bet that when they or their parents first arrived here they'd be bloody glad to have their feet on our soil and be accepted. You don't put on the purpose for immigration form, 'to firebomb, shoot or carve to death anyone I don't agree with'.

Ludlow Spinks

Oh I'm not angry, Austin, I'm just playing.

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

Should I insert some sort of winking internet smiley-face here to indicate to idiots that I'm joking?

Ludlow Spinks

Oh I'm not angry, Austin, I'm just playing.

You wouldn't like me when I'm angry.

(Should I put in a winking internet smiley face here to indicate to idiots that I'm joking?)

alkan kizildel

It is a two-way traffic. In the past the Brits went out to those faraway places certainly not for the "mission civilatrice". Now the aboriginies are flocking to the UK to roost with a vengence...

David Bouvier

John Bull AV (may duplicate lost post)

The Trident figures are for gun crime across the Metropolitan Police 'Service' area, and show 4 out 5 cases had black suspects. I suppose they produced this information because of their brief. It is not just 'Trident' cases.

None of the various 'refutations' you, Malcolm etc produce had any London or MPS statistics - quoting the UK as a whole answers a different question.

I was shocked to find that Rod was correct in this instance, not just messing up relative propensity with overall proportion. But that does appear to be what the data says.

What is going on? Is it a case of, as Jack says, "You can't handle the truth"?

Dan Green

JBAV "To clarify then, Liddle wrote about London, not America or various states within it" Multiculturalism if found in may countries globally and the problems associated with with it are similar. London is not identicle to the US or Brazil or South Africa but it is not somehaw magically different from everewhere else either.

"and about crime and multiculturalism, not about 'social breakdown'." I thought it was too obvious to mention that social breakdown encourages crime but obviously not

"Perhaps when you have a moment, you might like to actually comment on what he wrote and on the refutations put forward by Ludwlow Spinks, Malcolm and others on this page rather than a feeble attempt at bolstering a case which Liddle didn't make in the first place" I was specifically responding to these 'refutations' in my post. With reguards to the point that Liddle may have exagerated to make a point I do not know enough about the statistics to comment. If he did then that does not mean that the point itself was not valid.

Ludlow Spinks expressed an awful lot of moral outrage and specificly at the idea that muticulturalism itself causes violent crime. I was making the point that the evidence shows that this is precisely what it does. As for his absurd arguement about dog-whistles, its a funny kind of dog-whistle that sounds so loud.

As for Malcolm's point about white crimes, apart from making the ridiculous arguement that whites are more agressive in war (rather than technologically more advanced and therefore better at winning them) he also argued that whites are more likely to be guilty of peodophilia. Now I don't know if this is the case but if it is it suggests that different ethnic groups have either genetic or cultural tendencies towards different kinds of crime. If that is true then surely its better to admit the problems rather than pretent they don't exist.

Malcolm

Ludlow, you've got me literally laughing out loud in my office. What a classic quotable from you sir: "All of this gorblimey up-the-millwall I'm a badbwoy say-it-like-it-is willy-waving and ooh-mummy-I-done-a-poo shock tactics are simply part of the longest drawn-out, most feebly pathetic, most public midlife crisis of the modern age." Hehehe.

That sums up quite succinctly the anatomy of these modern day wanna-be racist types. "Mummy-I-done-a-poo" logic is not of the intellect, and this is their problem in this whole affair: critical thinking ability, it's simply missing. The ability to incisively analyse, parallel process and conscientiously integrate the empirical and abstract in real time to generate accurate 360 degree views of the world around them, while simultaneously being immersed in, and fulfilling their own inner, personal lives. No, I suppose this would be too much mental effort. Just take Mr "Bouvier" for example, his attempt at statistical analysis was brilliantly deconstructed by John Bull anti-vaccine and exposed for the miserable failure that it is.

All the "mummy-I-done-a-poo" muppet "proved" was that if you look in a Black area you'll see Black crime, and if you look in a white area, you'll see white crime. Ooo, how revelatory. And he didn't pause once to ask himself, as John Bull pointed out, "why only 75% of victims and 79% of suspects were Black in a ‘Black on Black gun crime’ operation."? LOL! This is too easy.

You see, this is what happens when ignoramuses interact with facts. You get left looking like damned men flowing hopelessly with the tide to oblivion, clutching onto twigs. Take note, Rod and your ilk. The facts don't support you. Anything you say outside of that, is your personal prejudice and conjecture, and therefore doesn't matter. Truth is, you lost this battle before it even started.

Ludlow Spinks

"David Bouvier" you're not addressing what is being said to you.

This discussion is not about the statistics. We all agree that there is a problem with young black men in London being over-prone to getting convicted of certain crimes. Not one person has disagreed with that. So you can stop hammering away at this, we're past that bit.

This discussion is about Rod's original article: an article that contained NO statistics, but a couple of demonstrably false, racist claims that slander every single immigrant to this country and their families.

So, can you deal with the refutations of HIS CLAIMS please - not throw statistics around to make a point that nobody is arguing with, please?

David Bouvier

Malcolm

If you read the reference you will see that the figures published by Operation Trident refer to "all Metropolitan Police Service firearms homicides and shootings in 2006". Not "Operation Trident" homicides and shootings.

What I love is that after crowing about my alleged error, you point out that the figures would not make sense for an operation targeting black-on-black gun crime IF YOU WERE RIGHT ABOUT THE DATA. Did that not give you or John Bull AV any pause for thought, to consider whether you were wrong?

Not my definition of "brilliant deconstruction". I look forward to further name-calling.

PS - Talking of which, do you find "Bouvier" funny? It was good enough for Jacqui Kennedy.

Ludlow Spinks

"Ludlow Spinks expressed an awful lot of moral outrage and specificly at the idea that muticulturalism itself causes violent crime."

Mate, you trip yourself over with every word you post. I spelled out early on the difference between multiculturalISM (the ideology) and "multi-cultural Britain" (the fact of having multiple cultures). Rod's original post (which is what we are talking about here REMEMBER?) was about "multi-cultural Britain".

If you want to talk about multiculturalism, take it somewhere else, thks.

You're like a tramp fighting invisible monsters.

MrJones

Ludlow et al

The dam was breached about two hundred posts ago. Better luck next time.

John Bull anti-vaccine

David Bouvier - Please feel free to make it as simple or as complicated as you like for me, I'm a statistician by training and profession and - unlike you - I won't find myself being confused.

Let me be very clear now then shall I. The figures you quote are taken from Operation Trident 'operations' across London. As I've indicated they are Trident figures and not figures on all gun crime by all racial groups in London. Malcolm's crowing is wholly justified, because the paragraph is badly written; it translastes as, we took figures from all Operation Trident figures in London. Or how else do you explain the disparity with the figures you give with those on Table 5.5 here, which show that 55.7% of violent crimes against the person in London in 2003/2004 were committed by Whites and 30.7 by Blacks? Shall we look at Table 5.4 of the same link provided by Malcolm, "The percentage breakdown by ethnic appearance for age groups of those
arrested for notifiable offences, selected areas and England and Wales, 2003/4". In the 10-17 age group, 53.8% White and 36.2% Black, in the 18 to 20 age group, 52.5% White and 32.6% Black and those aged 21 and over, 56.4% White and 30.% Black. And specificially for And here's the URL for you; http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs05/s95race04.pdf. Liddle's claims remain unproved. You'd best to find another form of transport to market, cos you've flogged that horse to death.

And it was Col Nathan R Jessep who asked the chief prosecutor whether he could handle the truth or not, not, "Jack". One is a fictional character from a Hollywood film, the other is an actor. Seems Rod isn't the only one having trouble separating truth from fiction.

Austin Barry - I hadn't noticed Ludlow Spinks becoming aireated, but nice Dumas quote. Was that Dumas pere or Dumas fils? Good of him too to have contributed something other than goat curry or rap music to European culture.

Dan Green - "I was specifically responding to these 'refutations' in my post." Responding by posting information on America that has nothing to do with London. London may not be, "magically different", than anywhere else, but it is different. That's why it might just be useful to stick to the city and country in hand.

Ludlow Spinks

Hahahaha "Mr Jones" your comic timing is impeccable.

David Bouvier

John Bull AV - thankyou for a specific and civil post.

I hadn't noticed the London breakdown because Malcolm went on about national figures so much.

Of course high prevalence categories such as all notifiable crimes or violence against the person (dominated I presume by assault) will almost always be less skewed than rarer more serious crimes.

But the figures I quoted, which were referenced with the same interpretation in for example Roger Graef's documentary Murder Blues, are not at all inconsistent with the degree of disproportion in the figures for homicide and the ethnic mix of London.

My understanding is that the figures for suspects race in shootings and firearm homicides are not routinely collated, so Trident commissioned the analysis of all such crimes in the MPS area. That is why it is a Trident-sourced figure.

Do you have a source that explicitly states that this only refers to Trident crimes and that the face description is incorrect? Or are you assuming that the select committee report is in error?

Is your point that Rod has not provided good sources, or that Rod is definitely wrong?

Ludlow Spinks

We'd better prepare now for the onslaught of posts accusing "John Bull anti-vaccine" of being part of the LIBERAL CONSPIRACY of FACTS and SCIENCE and STATISTICAL METHOD.

HairyNoddy

Malcolm (McLaren?)
I'm surprised you dared to show your face here again. Did you read the papers yesterday?

12 year old girl raped on her way to school, suspect is a black man?

I suppose you'll be retracting this vicious racist slander then, and I quote:

"all peadophilia[sic] (incestuous and otherwise) cases in the United Kingdom are committed a 100% of the time by white males."

pedro fisher

thank you, truth is always difficult, about time someone says what we all know

HairyNoddy

Anti-English bigot: "Or how else do you explain the disparity with the figures you give with those on Table 5.5 here, which show that 55.7% of violent crimes against the person in London in 2003/2004 were committed by Whites and 30.7 by Blacks?"

Er .. there are more whites in London than blacks, probably a ratio of five to one at least?

"The percentage breakdown by ethnic appearance for age groups of those arrested for notifiable offences, selected areas and England and Wales, 2003/4. In the 10-17 age group, 53.8% White and 36.2% Black, in the 18 to 20 age group, 52.5% White and 32.6% Black and those aged 21 and over, 56.4% White and 30.% Black."

Er .. there are many times more whites in England than blacks, probably a ratio of 10 to 1 at least? I feel I should also point out that the term 'notifiable offence' covers a wide range of offences, not necessarily violent offences. I should also point out that anyone arrested may be released without charge. So a meaningless statistic there. And you say you're a statistician?

Dan Green

"Mate, you trip yourself over with every word you post. I spelled out early on the difference between multiculturalISM (the ideology) and "multi-cultural Britain" (the fact of having multiple cultures). Rod's original post (which is what we are talking about here REMEMBER?) was about "multi-cultural Britain".

I have to apologise for not using Ludlow's helpful dictionary there. What I should have said was that the presence of mutiple cultures in the same area causes disorder and crime. I'm glad also he has been telling everyone how to conduct the arguement and dishing out abuse to anyone who disagrees with him. If he wasn't doing that there could be a danger of people starting to think for themselves and that would never do.

JBAV: You're absolutely right of course. The social sciences are a complete wastle of time. Obviously any study or analysis of any social phenomenom anywhere in thw world has absolutely no relavence to anywhere else in the world. I was going to ask what the relavent differences between London and US cities are that stop this phenomenom being transatlantic but I see now I was misguided. I might pop round to my local University and tell the Sociology and Politics departments that they can pack up.

Malcolm

Hairynoddy, the last thing I want to do is offend anyone by my own inaccuracy. So please accept my apology for saying 100%. In light of the new evidence you've just presented, I now revise that figure to 99.999%. I hope this pleases you.

John Bull anti-vacinne

David Bouvier - my point has been and always will be that Rod Liddle didn't provide any figures and no available data backs him up. The paragraph in question in the parliamentary report is ambiguously worded. It suggests that the data are from Operation Trident and relate to operations they conducted across London.

Noddy - have you got Big Ears?

Jono

Well done for stating the truth - very few will.

Austin Barry

Please could we all make an effort to lift comments on Rod's post to over 500?

So, if there are any more politically correct ostriches out there, please could they lift their pointy, sand-speckled head and provide us with a few more blinkered pieties.

Equally, those of us who salute Rod "Chopper" Liddle for risking a career-ending injury by hurtling into the complacent relativists of Pollyanna United should add our messages of support.

Ludlow Spinks

Dan Green, no amount of sarcasm will change the fact that you are changing the terms of your argument with every post. You have nothing to say, and you are writhing around nonsensically as you try and avoid admitting this - this is not "abuse", you poor sensitive little lamb, it is fact. If you think it is abuse for someone to point out in jocular fashion when you are talking nonsense, maybe real political discussion isn't for you and you should go back to sitting at the end of the bar muttering about how we're all going to hell in a handcart.

I hope Rod is reading this, seeing the constituency that he has attracted, and weeping into his Telegraph crossword. You should have been careful what you wished for when you decided to play the shock-jock Rod, because you got it all too easily!

maddy1

Rod read the headlines of this weeks "The Sowetan" The SA. Police Chief calling these rapists animals who should be kept in kennels.

ONYX

DAMN FOOL!!!

walworth

The perpetrator seems to have been good at what he does, and going places. And it seems that he did this out of ambition and for the sake of his career. (He also seems to have come from a 'good family'.) I quote, uncomprehendingly, from www.last.fm, :-

Maniac, real name 'Brandon Jolie' is a grime producer from Bow, East London, and got his breakthrough in producing the track 'Bow E3', which was released on Wiley's third album 'Playtime Is Over'. He was brought to the attention of Wiley by God's Gift. He has made tracks for many MCs, including Wiley, Little Dee, Griminal, Riko, Tinchy Stryder, Asher D, Jammer, Kano, Chipmunk and JME. He is recognised as one of the best producers in the scene despite being only 18 years of age. He also featured on the soundtrack to the film 'Adulthood', with his beat being vocalled by Bashy.

What is 'grime'?? I suspect it's not very nice.

John Bull anti-vaccine

Dan Green - "Obviously any study or analysis of any social phenomenom anywhere in the world has absolutely no relavence to anywhere else in the world. I was going to ask what the relavent differences between London and US cities are that stop this phenomenom being transatlantic but I see now I was misguided. I might pop round to my local University and tell the Sociology and Politics departments that they can pack up."

There's no need to do that, they'll very well understand the folly of your approach already. It's not necessary to collect and analyse city and country specific data, just to assume broad similarities between geographic areas mean they will experience social phenomenon in exactly the same way!

As I indicated,London and the UK may not be, "magically different" - your phrase not mine - but it is different. Perhaps you should read what I acutally wrote rather than attempt to criticise me for what you think I wrote.

And please don't accuse others of being abusive simply because you are unable to discuss the matter in hand, it makes your position look even more untenable.

Jono - it clearly isn't the truth, perhaps you should read this thread a little more carefully.

Noddy - It's a shame you haven't read this thread either. Malcolm has extensively detailed convictions for violent offences, see his post of 8th December, hence why I didn't have to. I presented other data and those data - like all data - are subject to reservations. It remains the case that very early on in this discussion Liddle's claims about young African-Caribbean men carrying out the overwhelming majority of street, knife, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is wrong. Wanting his blog to have been written about over-representation of Black young people in the criminal justice system or in crime statistics does not make it so.

Have you still got Big Ears?

Herbert Thornton

This theme of criminal activity in London by Black immigrants and their offspring certainly demonstrates what multiculturalism has wrought, but people in several of our Northern Towns would very much like to hear what Rod would say if he lived for a few months in one of our Northern towns. Maybe not exactly where Ian Brady and Myra Hindley lived, but where there are really substantial numbers of Muslims, preferably in (or at least close by) what is well known to be a No Go area. Then he could tell us which of the two contained the more serious danger to the future peace of all of Britain.

HairyNoddy

Malcolm and John Bull anti vacinne[sic] are here whining about some supposed racist inaccuracy in Rod Liddle's figures.

The problem is, they themselves are not averse to blatant racist slanders against whites.

So even if they are right about Rod's inaccurate figures (not that I accept that they are) why should they expect us to care?

Annabel Lenton-Thompson

"The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community"

Um. Got any proof of that? Thought not.

John Bull anti-vaccine

Noddy - "Blatant racist slurs". Such as?

"....whining about some supposed racist inaccuracy in Rod Liddle's figures." As I've already indicated, you haven't read this thread, nor have you read Liddles's blog. He presents no figures. Try and keep up.

Liddleman

I've been watching some Simpsons, brilliant!

There was this one episode where Lisa was angst because all the Simpsons she new didn't amount to much and she throught that once she reached a certain age (9 I think?) she would regress and be just like Bart and Homer. At the end of the episode Marge had gathered the whole Simpson clan on the lawn, and just as feared they were all navvies, drunks and bums, etc except for the Simpson women who were all bright, beautiful (???) and had great jobs at the top of the tree. It seems the Simpson (degenerative) gene only affected the males of the clan.

So is this what has affected the minority of black boys who do badly at school, turn to gangs and commit knife and gun crime, rob white people and give white girls babies?????

workie ticket

Re the oft used phrase ‘multicultural’ as in Britain, does anyone remember the olden days when the phrase wasn’t the authorized description of the country? I seem to remember the preferred phrase of the liberal Left social engineers who were taking control of the levers of the country was the ‘melting pot’ where the plebs (not themselves of course) would accept immigrants who would assimilate fully (no, really) and we would all happily breed together in a hitherto unknown state of societal grace.
This theory soon was disproved by observation so a new ‘theory’ was espoused to mollify and hoodwink said plebs (nasty racist bigots all unlike the newcomers) – that of the ‘salad bowl’. It seemed we were now a lovely mix of disparate people, separate and different but part of an undeniably British recipe all sharing the same values. And then of course we became the ‘multicultural Britain’ which we had always apparently been (and wasn’t it just great both culturally and financially?).
The problem (the?) with the multi argument is that it is based on a lie. ALL individuals are equal and have (or should have) equal rights and respect, but are all cultures or religions? Is Australian aboriginal culture the equal of, say, Chinese? Is Patagonian Indian culture the equal of Hindu? And, closer to home is Mirpuri or Jamaican culture the equal of even the deficient English culture so despised by yer BBC and Guardianistas? I venture to suggest not.

Anon

Er, there was a large Afro-Caribbean and African population here decades before this recent trend of rap (which is American by the way) and gang culture.

The thuggish elements of the youth population in this country are a result of the awful incompetence of New Labour not multiculturalism (Whatever that really is).
They stripped parents and teachers of power to discipline, and these kids know it. The kids over here have to be the most under disciplined, softly softly treated kids on the planet, and are they peace loving hippies as a result? No, they are completely without mercy. It’s like in Lord of the flies, but worse, because the adults are actually present. Older generation West Indians (my grandparents) lived by the maxim of "spare the rod, spoil the child". This does not necessarily mean just smacking a child, but ensuring that they know boundaries. It's just a shame that some people were quick to drop this off when raising their own, because it did not fit the general trend of the society they lived in.

I think Rod Liddle uses the term African-Caribbean because the perpetrators in the story linked in his article are an African and an Afro-Caribbean, so rather than extend himself to typing "African and Afro-Caribbean" or even African/Afro-Caribbean he thought he'd lazily just extend to African-Caribbean. I mean it's all the same to you anyway, isn't it Rod?

I have noticed this trend elsewhere and I find it annoying.

How New Labour must laugh when they've killed this country, sold it off, and sold it out (I mean Gordon Brown selling off the gold reserve when gold was at a deep low. What did he think? 'Oh gold, it may have been valued for millennia but its had its day now, it's finished'.), yet still for all the mess the government have made, the public will still ultimately blame ethnics. History it would appear teaches people nothing.

I grew up in London, and in the 80's and most of the 90's, it was nothing like it is now. Now it is a true s**t pit, dirty and chaotic. It reminds me of when as a child I used to think how grim and chaotic New York looked in Hill Street Blues and Cagney and Lacey, and was glad I didn't live there. I remember reading in the mid 90's Mica Paris say New York was so dirty, and she hoped London never got like that. London by contrast was a big city that was calm and quite sedate and orderly. Public transport was clean and, there wasn't chewing gum, fast-food rubbish, leaves or alcohol induced vomit all over the pavements. When starting secondary school you were worried about the myth of having your head flushed in the toilet, not being stabbed.
Hmm, at least New York’s been cleaned up.

If Margret Thatcher declared that there is no such thing as community, then Tony Blair and his mob have made sure that it is so.

The other side to this story:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-471529/Grandchildren-Windrush-quit-Britain-better-life-Caribbean.html

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=7074

John Bull anti-vaccine

Liddleman - Watching cartoons in the middle of the afternoon? You wouldn't happen to be drinking Diamond White too would you?

But clearly, you've hit the nail on the head. Black men don't commit, "The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London". And they don't commit it for genetic reasons. Am I missing something?

Doh!

Mr HasNoTimeForMediaRacists

Rod, as a black man, I have no problem with people stating REAL facts, negative or positive, about black people. However, for you to make that stupid statement at the end of your article, suggesting that the only contribution from black people to this country is rap music and goat curry just shows a level of ignorance and stupidity that someone in your position should be above. Rod, please tell me that you're not one of those people that believes white people are some how superior to black people. You must think this, if all you believe we have contributed to this country is rap music and goat curry!!

If people in the media treat everybody the same i.e. tell us which crimes are mostly committed by white people, then I would not have a problem. Problems arise when only certain groups are labelled when it comes to crime e.g. Muslims, black people etc. We hear of terms like 'black on black crime', 'muslim extremism'. We don't hear of 'white paedophile crime' or 'white politician expenses crime'. Why is that? Somebody help me out here.

HairyNoddy

"We don't hear of 'white paedophile crime' or 'white politician expenses crime'. Why is that? Somebody help me out here."

Firstly I don't accept that whites are more politically corrupt or more likely to be paedophiles. Hardly any of the ethnic politicians have remained untarnished by the expenses scandal or other recent scandals. A couple of days ago a girl was raped and the suspect is black, there have also been 8 asians in court charged with paedophile crimes recently.

But even if it were true, so what? This is still an overwhelmingly white country with a culture which has shaken the world, and this multicultural garbage has been part of British society for a very short period of time relatively. The fact that so many people come here from the third world and choose to stay indicates that they feel that they AND THEIR CHILDREN are better off here than in whatever country they came from. And they are better off here, their will be healthier, live longer, live in greater safety, have greater opportunities to fulfill their potential etc etc than they would in their country of origin. British people owe immigrants precisely nothing. There is nothing that immigrants do which British people are incapable of.

No one is saying that white people don't commit crime. There are plenty of white scumbags, but that is not a good reason to allow more foreign scumbags into the country, nor to allow scumbags from immigrant communities to stay here.

Nor am I saying that no immigrant has benefitted Britain. Any immigrant that fights in the Armed Forces deserves our utmost respect for example, plenty of immigrants have performed wonders in the sporting arena and in entertainment as well as many other fields.

However, the white people of this country have had no choice but to accept immigration and have done so with remarkable good grace, considering the profoundly negative effect it has had on the lives of those most affected by it. The constant stream of politically correct multicultural drivel from the media has probably helped somewhat.

Now the white British population are starting to discover that multiculturalism goes hand in hand with the destruction of their own culture, and the stream of drivel from the media is based on lies, and they don't particularly like it. They, like Rod are starting to ask searching questions about the value of multiculturalism and immigration, and about time too.

John Bull anti-vaccine

Noddy - "Firstly I don't accept that whites are more politically corrupt or more likely to be paedophiles." But that's not what Has No Time said was it. Nevertheless you continue to read what you want to read.

"This is still an overwhelmingly white country with a culture which has shaken the world." Well that's depends on what you are referring to. Previous posters like Verity seem to have a shaky grasp of history, suggesting that Britain had no involvement in The Atlantic Slave Trade other than the Navy which was responsible for bringing it to an end. But this coutry does have an extensive past as an imperial and colonial power and a derivative of that is that when you give residents of former colonies the right to come here, they might just choose to do that. Being a right conferred on them, it required no, "good grace", on the part of the British people to accept that.

"....multiculturalism goes hand in hand with the destruction of their own culture..." What culture are we talking about here, Morris dancing and fish and chips? Oh excuse me, I don't know what happened there, I seemed to be having a Rod Liddle reductionist moment.

"....and the stream of drivel from the media is based on lies, and they don't particularly like it." You mean like claming that the overwhelming majority of violent and sexual crime in the Capital is caused by young men from their ehtnic group?

You know Noddy, you don't mind me calling you Noddy do you, referring to one or two cases doesn't prove your argument. A rapist, raped a child. His race has nothing to with it. You're sounding increasingly desperate and hysterical.

Ludlow Spinks

I'll tell you what, the people who think that "white people's culture" - whatever that might mean - will be destroyed by people they think of as less civilised don't have much faith in their own culture eh?

I love British culture, I am proudly British - a mongrel myself of Scots, German, American and other parts, with relatives with Chinese and Ugandan blood who I consider just as British as I am - and I believe in British culture's resilience. And why is it resillient? BECAUSE IT IS MONGREL CULTURE. Because it has hybrid vigour and it has always, always taken in fresh blood, fresh culture, fresh thinking, and grown with it. And so it will continue with the current population.

You might not believe the (always, always multi-cultural, from our very beginnings) British have the nous and spirit to get round our current financial crisis and social problems, but I do.

So who's the patriot here?

Dan Green

JBAV "There's no need to do that, they'll very well understand the folly of your approach already. It's not necessary to collect and analyse city and country specific data, just to assume broad similarities between geographic areas mean they will experience social phenomenon in exactly the same way!

As I indicated,London and the UK may not be, "magically different" - your phrase not mine - but it is different. Perhaps you should read what I acutally wrote rather than attempt to criticise me for what you think I wrote."

I have nowhere written that the evidence from America or South Africa or anywhere else proves that high crime rates or any other form of social breakdown in London is caused by multiculturalism. What the evidence indicates is that for a large prortion of the world -the US - this is the case. The Putnam study showed that this is true for towns any cities that are very different for one another. I also suggested that the murder statistics for a variety of other countries suggest that this holds true for other nations that are very different from the US. That there is a pattern within the US and across different nations. Now given this pattern held for US towns very different from one another (e.g. large cities and small towns) and given that there are similarities (as well as differences) in the pattern of multicultural mix between London and cities in the US then it is perfectly reasonable to hypothesise that this pattern applies to towns and cities in the UK and Europe. Frankly for the reasons given and for other reasons as well I think it highly likely. Now it is true that the ways in which London is different from the US and other places could mean that it does not apply to London. Of course London is not identicle to any town in the US or anywhere else but that does not mean that statistics or studies from the United States have no relevence.

If there were no patterns in sociological phenomena then there would indeed be no point to Sociology. Not only would sociological data have no relevence to anyone or anywhere not directly included in the study but it would be meaningless to try and analyse the data at all. The people and places surveyed will not be indentical and therefore have no relevance to one another.

Of couse London's uniqueness might mean that the multicultural society actually reduces crime levels, or at least leaves the unaltered. It might be interesting for a study to be done into the subject. I suspect it won't be as it might come up with the wrong answer.

I notice a lot of the "anti-racist" arguement here seems to boil down to "I don't like what you're saying SHUT UP everybody else don't listen". Variations on this theme are
i/'You're racist' i.e. shut up
ii/'by saying this you're stopping meaningful dialogue and work that addresses these issues' i.e 'shut up or you'll make it worse'
iii/Various ad hominem abusive attacks, sorry I mean jocularity such as 'You're arguemnts are rubbish and you are psychotic' i.e. 'if you say that that you'll sound mad, bad or stupid so better shut up'
iv/Pedantry such as 'you said multiculturalism when you meant multicultural society' i.e. 'you're talking gobbledegook so you might be better shutting up'
v/telling people to stick to discussing the original post and to 'go somewhere else' if they talk about wider issues i.e. I think I'm on stronger ground just discussing the original blog so if you're talking about anything else at all you should shut up.
vi/A nice variation from Lulow on iii. 'if you think this is abuse you poor thing maybe real political discussion isn't for you and you should go back to sitting at the end of the bar' i.e. if you object or even point out that I'm using ad hominem you sound pathectic so probably better shut up'
vii/ 'no one is trying to censor anyone' i.e. 'If you object to me trying to shut you up you'll sound paranoid so maybe you ought to shutup.
viii/ A variation on vii. directed at RL 'no one is calling on you to be prosecuted don't think you're so important' i.e. 'if you mention the fact that people in other parts of the internet wrote that you should be prosecuted under the Public Order Act in order to shut you up then you sound delusional so you might want to shut up'.

Communists, and I don't know if anyone who posted is a communist but some certainly have the same personality type, are like christian fundamentalists. They go on about peace love and justice but in reality they are motivated by anger, hate, fantasies of revenge and the fundamental desire to tell everyone what to do.

Mr HasNoTimeForMediaRacists
December 11th, 2009 4:33pm
We hear of terms like 'black on black crime', 'muslim extremism'. We don't hear of 'white paedophile crime' or 'white politician expenses crime'. Why is that? Somebody help me out here.

logdon

Mr HasNoTimeForMediaRacists
December 11th, 2009 4:33pm
We hear of terms like 'black on black crime', 'muslim extremism'. We don't hear of 'white paedophile crime' or 'white politician expenses crime'. Why is that? Somebody help me out here.

Because we're the default majority. If crime is committed it's white unless stated otherwise.

And if percentage of population is factored in the bulk of violent crime is either black or muslim.

HairyNoddy

Why would I refer to you referring to me as Noddy? If I found the term 'Noddy' offensive, would I have given myself that name?

John Bull anti-vaccine:"We live in a majority White country where the majority of crime is committed by White people and some of it, paedeophilia being just one example being almost exclusively perpetrated by White people."

For a start, neither you or your fellow anti-white slanderers have provided no evidence that whites are more likely to be paedophiles. You are resorting to the same kind of race slander which you accuse Rod Liddle of.

John Bull anti-vaccine:"Noddy do you, referring to one or two cases doesn't prove your argument. A rapist, raped a child. His race has nothing to with it."

So when if a paedophile is white then that's evidence of a racial predeliction for paedophilia, but if he's not white then his race has nothing to do with it? Try and be consistent if you expect to be taken seriously.

John Bull anti-vaccine:"Previous posters like Verity seem to have a shaky grasp of history, suggesting that Britain had no involvement in The Atlantic Slave Trade other than the Navy which was responsible for bringing it to an end. But this coutry does have an extensive past as an imperial and colonial power and a derivative of that is that when you give residents of former colonies the right to come here, they might just choose to do that. Being a right conferred on them, it required no, "good grace", on the part of the British people to accept that."

Firsly I am aware of my country's past in the slave trade.

Secondly I am aware that we ended the slave trade voluntarily, 200 years ago.

Thirdly I am aware that there aren't many cultures that haven't used slavery at some point in their history. In fact the Saudis were enslaving africans for over a thousand years, and I am aware that you would know better than to try this lame guilt trip crap on any Saudi.

Fourthly The ancestors of slaves have had the freedom to return to Africa for hundreds of years and guess what? They stay in the west because they know that Africa is a living disaster, and not exactly improving under African leadership.

Fifth, do you seriously think that anyone could force the UK to take on immigrants from the ex colonies against our will?

John Bull anti-vaccine

Dan Green - "I have nowhere written that the evidence from America or South Africa or anywhere else proves that high crime rates or any other form of social breakdown in London is caused by multiculturalism." Where did I write that you did?

You really don't get it do you. Sociology is a science and it's epistemological methods of enquiry are (in the main) scientifically conducted studies. Emile Durkheim's 1897 study, 'Suicide' may have added to the body of Sociological knowledge, but I'm guessing to find out what has led to so many suicide deaths in Bridgend in recent years, may just require a little more recent and localised study. Similarly, I think James Patrick's 'A Glasgow Gang Observed', may provide a very telling account of life in 1970s Glasgow gangs and necessary reading for the trained sociologist, but I think that to understand gang culture in London in 2009 may also require a little more up to date fact finding. Or in addition to taking studies out of their social context, should we take them out of their temporal context too? In which case shutting down all Sociology Departments worldwide will be necessary; after all what could they be possibly be doing?!

And here's where you go fundamentally and unalterably wrong, "If there were no patterns in sociological phenomena then there would indeed be no point to Sociology. Not only would sociological data have no relevence to anyone or anywhere not directly included in the study but it would be meaningless to try and analyse the data at all." But of course there would, it is most useful when applied to the population under study. Sociology is the study of societies, not the study of one society and generalised application of the findings to all similar societies. Societies are different, that is why they are studied separately.

I may not be a social researcher anymore, but I can remember well the four years I spent on my undegraduate degree in Social Science (Sociology) prior to that work. I'm afraid your rendition of Sociology bears no relation to any book on Sociology I've ever read.

By the way, what is a "Communist personality type". Is that some sort of bowdlerisation of the Authoritarian Personality?

TheSolution

Forget about the guy writing this. He is out of touch with people of different cultures. His only experience is probably limited to seeing the stereotypical characters we see in the media. In this country various elements like this always air their ridiculous opinions. Instead of merely complaining about the problems, GIVE US SOLUTIONS. And not useless suggestions like "why don't we send all immigrants back home." Because guess what. The immigrants have had kids. And their kids have had kids and now they are permanently part of the fabric of our so called British society so we can complain all we want. Such complaints are from cloud coockoo land. Three generations deep and nobodies leaving. Those who think otherwise should wake up and smell the coffee because it would take a leader much worse than Hitler to reverse it!

Furthermore the USA, the worlds Super power has a President who is more ethnic than anything else. The first family like it or not,and the most powerful family in the world are people of colour. The point is not merely about his colour, it is that the USA is moving beyond race and getting past its differences even though it evidently still has a long way to go. However the mere fact that a US president has a Kenyan father is a step in the right direction and that it is progress for the entire world.

Many of us here are still stuck in the middle ages and are bickering amongst ourselves about keeping England white! Complaints about this race and that religion. Pull your skirt up, get over your personal issues, unite and focus on tackling the problems of crime in our society such as rape, drugs, theft, pedophilia, violence, fraud, murder, terrorism and every other wrong doing regardless of the race! There is GOOD and BAD which does not have a color or creed. It would be nice to see the documented statistical facts of the actual crimes committed opposed to just the number of arrests. Some newspapers only reflect what they want you to hear and not the real statistics.

What we should be talking about are the real reasons behind rates of increase of various crimes in specific areas of high unemployment. Then we should find solutions. One consideration could be national service but it would take a leader with serious balls to introduce that. Other potentials include bringing back serious discipline to our schools. Giving the parents more rights to reprimand their kids. Bring back the old days like what the older generation had to contend with in their youth. We need to start with discipline at grass roots level! And then start finding solutions to assist one parent families, and especially single mothers who do not have a father figure for their out of control sons. If my son was out in the streets causing nonsense I'd so slap the taste out of his mouth if he was to bring that kind of foolishness like a police record to my door. To effect change in our society we have to do it as a collective. But let's ignore the comments of people like the man who created this post as it is non progressive!

JB

Everytime I hear on the news of an invasion of a country that has never done anything to harm us and the resulting deaths of millions of people, I just *know* that the perpetrators will be white men. I just *know* it.

Tom Burns

Spot on Rod.

Dan Green

JBAV."Sociology is a science and it's epistemological methods of enquiry are (in the main) scientifically conducted studies." From my own study of philosophy of science I seem to remember that science uses something called inductive reasoning. For example you say

"I think James Patrick's 'A Glasgow Gang Observed', may provide a very telling account of life in 1970s Glasgow gangs and necessary reading for the trained sociologist"

Now having just read a brief description of the book -and perhaps you can say if this is not accurate- the book was written about a study of a Glasgow gang and it was published in 1973. So, according to your arguement, how could it provide telling account of Glasgow gangs in the 1970's. The researcher would have had limited contact with other gangs and the study would have included no information about any gang after 1973. So according to your arguement the book would only provide a telling insight into the life of one Glasgow gang for a period of time before 1973.

Furthermore why would the book even be required reading for the trained sociologist today. If it provides no insights at all into the life of gangs in different times and places then in would not be of any use in helping a researcher devise a methodology for a study.

Putnam himself clearly thinks his paper has potential insights for other first would counties that are experiencing increasing diversity. He clearly suggests this in the very first paragraph of the paper. His publishers clearly think it has potential insights or what would be the point in publishing it in a journal called 'Scandinavian Political Studies'.

The article is here http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118510920/HTMLSTART

I'm not a trained sociologist and so I'm not in a position to critique his methodology. I think it would be interesting to have the view of a trained sociologist on what Putnam has written if you would be interested in doing so.

One more little bit of food for thought. I notice in the early part of the paper when Putman is stressing the benefits of diversity, which as a good liberal he is bound to do, he talks about increased creativity and economic growth. Now if diversity decreases social capital then would it not also make people less inclined to co-operate to protect their interests in the workplace. Would it not make people more competitive and willing to clime over each other on the greasy pole. Would it not make people more cynical and therefore more tolerant of bad behaviour from their bosses and politicians. Would it not make people more fearful and therefore more easily controled, less socially oriented and more more consumer oriented.

Might it not be the case that increasing diversity therefore similtaniously strengens capital by boosting productivity and weakens labour by reducing social capital. So not only does free movement of labour strengthen capital by increasing the labour supply but diversity itself helps the interests of the very rich at the expense of everyone else. Is this perhaps the reason why diversity and multiculturalism are promoted so much in our society. I could be wrong about that but thats my thought anyway.

By communist personality type I simple meant someone with a similar personality to the average communist but who is not necessarily a party member. I've never studied personality theory so I couldn't say if 'Authoritarian Personality' has anything to do with it.

Ludlow Spinks

Dan Green, you have stepped into Looking Glass Land.

I notice a lot of the "anti-racist" arguement here seems to boil down to "I don't like what you're saying SHUT UP everybody else don't listen".

There is only one person in this whole discussion who has tried to say "everybody else don't listen":

Rod Liddle.

All of us anti-racists are happy for all opinions to be aired, in the knowledge that any open-minded person of reasonable degree of wit and intellect will be able to see which side of the argument is using reason, and which side is wilfully twisting facts, avoiding answering criticism and putting doctrine before evidence.

And this is the thing: truth is unavoidable.

You lose.

paul

Totally agree with your views Sir! Good for you, speaking your mind, risky these days.

Ludlow Spinks

Thanks, Paul, appreciate it :)

John Bull anti-vaccine

Dan Green - "....I seem to remember that science uses something called inductive reasoning" No Dan, that would be deductive reasoning. What you are attempting to do with Putnam's study is inductive reasoning - applying from the particular to the general. You need to read a description of inductive reasoning to understand just why this is such a poor approach to understanding the world.

"So according to your arguement the book would only provide a telling insight into the life of one Glasgow gang for a period of time before 1973....Furthermore why would the book even be required reading for the trained sociologist today. If it provides no insights at all into the life of gangs in different times and places then in would not be of any use in helping a researcher devise a methodology for a study."

The reason that such a study would be required reading is simple, because like all academic study, it adds to the body of knowledge, because understanding the methodology used is helpful in deciding what methodology you will choose to use, because when you have completed your work you may find some commanalities in experience between the different study groups and describing these is going to be invaluable or they might find differing motivations and understanding those differing motivations is going to be invaluable. And there is a particular reason why Patrick's study is required reading, his method was an ethnographic one, he became a part of the gang and his reasearch was gleaned as living as part of the gang.
As very few studies are conducted in this way, if it was to be part of your repertoire in your later professional life, it might just help to read up on it now.

I'm afraid I'm going to have to decline your offfer to read and critique Putnam. So what's left is the need for constantly updated data and study on social phenomenon to understand the world in which we live. Or we could, like some of the posters on here be certain of what we know because the people on, "the streets", know the truth or because dealing with a single mugging (inductive reasoning) tells me what goes on in the rest of London, the country or the world.

Noddy - I'm glad you don't me calling you Noddy. Apart from being your name, it seems appropriate, your posts are becoming increasingly infantile.

Briefly, I've not claimed that White people have a predilection for paedophilia, I've pointed out the hypocrisy that whilst most crimes of paedophilia are carried out by White people the media has never felt the need to label them 'White on White sex abuse crime'. "Anti-White slanderers". Want to give me an example of that? Like your previous unfounded accusations I guess you'll just decline to comment. You may also want to read up on the difference between slander and libel.

Black people not choosing to return to Africa? Er why not the Caribbean, after all that's our most recent pre-UK history? But still, it proves you still haven't read the thread. Read the contribution by Anon which provides links to show that some people have chosen to do just that for a better life.

I'm glad you know the history of the slave trade. But giving it up voluntarily? I don't think so. Being unable to sustain it in an increasingly opposed moral climate is a more apposite description. And now lastly this gem, "Fifth, do you seriously think that anyone could force the UK to take on immigrants from the ex colonies against our will?" As I said, the British Empire chose to spread out across the world and part of the trade off was conferring the right of those living in colonies the right to come here. There was no forcing and there was no, "good grace" on the part of the British people in allowing them to do so either.

James Williams

If 12 per cent of London’s population is black, and account for 58% of arrests robberies, that means they are 58/12 divided by 42/88 or 10 times more likely to be arrested for robbery than the rest of the population. Similarly, 31.2% for violence means they are 3x more likely to be arrested for violence than the rest of the population. genetics has at least half to do with it - see:

Race Evolution and Behaviour by J Philippe Rushton

http://www.charlesdarwinresearch.org/Race_Evolution_Behavior.pdf

Austin Barry

I lived in Toronto for 20 years. Same deal: most street crime committed by Afro-Caribbean progeny of first generation immigrants. Go figure.

logdon

HairyNoddy
December 11th, 2009 11:52pm
paedeophilia being just one example being almost exclusively perpetrated by White people."

You mean reported crime. Muslim gangs are doing it too on a very large scale, but the difference is that plod turns a blind eye.

Ann Cryer has been trying to get light on this subject for years.

theopinionator.typepad.com/

Muslim Pedophile Rape Gang Arrested in Rotherham

The despicable muslim Rape Jihad continues in Britain. Once again young, vulnerable white British girls are plundered like war booty by muslim men. For that is just what this girls are = war booty = as muslims continue their invasion and colonisation of Great Britain bringing with them their contempt for the Western world and it's indigenous people, culture and customs - particularly women and girls.

The government and social policies of multiculturalism and appeasement have given muslims a sense of entitlement to all things British - from sponging off taxpayer paid benefits to establishing no-go areas for white British to the rampant raping and beating of British women and children. Meanwhile the police and courts continue to coddle muslims whilst the media keeps muslim criminals identities frequently out of the front pages of national newspapers. Search for muslim rape or rape jihad in the blogosphere - and the truth about muslim crime quickly becomes glaringly evident.

I (and many other bloggers) have written extensively about the muslim rape of British women and children - and yes - even men.

A small sampling:

THE MUSLIM RAPE RAPE RAPE RAPE OF BRITISH GIRLS

WORSE than a "pack of animals" - 3 Muslim Men Jailed for Rape of 16 yr old British girl

Muslim Millionaire Pedophiles Buying British Little Girls for Sex

MUSLIM MEN RAPE FOUR BRITISH SCHOOLGIRLS AT AMUSEMENT PARK

UK EPIDEMIC - MUSLIM TAXI DRIVERS RAPING BRITISH GIRLS & WOMEN

MUSLIM MAN KIDNAPS 14 YR OLD BRITISH GIRL FOR SEX

THE BEAT GOES ON ----- MUSLIM ATTACKS ON BRITISH WOMEN

JAILED PEDOPHILE CONVERTS TO ISLAM

MUSLIM PEDOPHILES RAPE UK TAXPAYERS

John Bull anti-vaccine

James Williams - "If 12 per cent of London’s population is black". It isn't, it's 10.7% in the ONS estimates for 2007.

Black people are overly represented in the Criminal Justice system. And your point is what exactly? The figures you quote have been detailed extensively on this thread already, please feel free to read them. The main points in hand are Liddle's assumptions that young Black men commit most crimes of violence, sexual violence and so on in London. They don't. Nor is the norm for them to perpetrate the crime which he links to, his second contention. And lastly, I'm pretty sure that Black people have contributed something a little more than goat curry (sic) and rap music to this country. Please feel free to deal with any of those points.

You're another contributor seeking to provide an explanation to a problem which exists only in the mind and blog of Rod Liddle and equally misinformed indviduals. The genetics of race has been heavily discredited and you're not doing yourself any favours asserting that, "genetics has at least half to do with it". Really, and if Black people commit crime for genetic reasons, why do White and other ethnic groups do so?

Austin Barry - You may need to read up on what Liddle wrote, rather than what you wanted him to have written. Street crime wasn't all he was blaming on Black youth.

Data:

http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadTableView.do;jsessionid=ac1f930b30d675c5bdca9c244f639b25d60a19c01f4d?a=3&b=276743&c=London&d=13&e=13&g=325264&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1260648593015&enc=1&dsFamilyId=1812&nsjs=true&nsck=true&nssvg=false&nswid=1280

Neil

Perhaps the only way to be truly non-racist is to be equally critical of everyone. So I don't see a problem with pointing out a higher tendency to commit crime in one particular community, if it exists.
But..! I don't think that we can assume that if what has been written here by Mr Liddle is true it therefore can't be a piece of bigotry.
It is entirely possible to enounce truths (in a not-so-subtle nod and wink way) and be racist, nevertheless. The BNP and the Daily Mail do this quite often.
Mr Liddle's disdain for multiculturalism seems to be a cover for a more traditional right wing position (we shouldn't have let them in, we should send them back home etc.)
I don't have a profound knowledge of the afro-caribbean culture and so am not in a position to judge whether bashing pregnant teenage girls over the head and attempting to drown them is a feature of it. It would surprise me to learn that it was.
Also, to accept that adopting the notion of multiculturalism is a cause of immigration to this country rather than a convenient ideological justifcation for what is fundamentally an economic phenomenon is uncritical and misguided.
This blog implies that all of the young men of the afro-caribbean community are "human filth". Which is unfortunate.
Because no doubt Mr Liddle deplores racism and has lots of black friends.

Dan Green

JBAV:""....I seem to remember that science uses something called inductive reasoning" No Dan, that would be deductive reasoning. What you are attempting to do with Putnam's study is inductive reasoning - applying from the particular to the general. You need to read a description of inductive reasoning to understand just why this is such a poor approach to understanding the world."

Really?! I realise that philosophers have argued about whole 'problem of induction' for centuries, but I would have thought everyone would know that science is based on inductive reasoning. Logic is based on deductive reasoning. Mathematics, I would say, is based on deductive reasoning (although I know that philosophers of mathematics have argued about this - not having studied the philosophy of mathematics I'm not in a position to judge their arguements). But I wouldn't have thought that anyone now would seriously argue that other sciences could be based on deductive reasoning alone. For a start the laws of physics would be out of the window. The laws of physics cannot be proved deductively. A scientist might devise an experiment but in order to even know what he is testing or to make sense of his results he has to use induction. He has to assume that certain scientific laws are still functioning to even know what he is looking at. He cannot rebuild the whole of science from every experiment.

"The reason that such a study would be required reading is simple, because like all academic study, it adds to the body of knowledge, because understanding the methodology used is helpful in deciding what methodology you will choose to use"

Why would it be helpful in formulating your methodolgy. If you think it would be helpful then you are assuming that if a method that was useful in the past is it is more likely to be useful in the future. That is what is called induction.

"because when you have completed your work you may find some commanalities in experience between the different study groups and describing these is going to be invaluable or they might find differing motivations and understanding those differing motivations is going to be invaluable."

But why would it be invaluable or even useful. Unless you are assuming that a method for analysing data in the past will be useful in the future. Which would be inductive reasoning.

"I'm afraid I'm going to have to decline your offfer to read and critique Putnam." I wonder why. It seems you feel strongly on the subject of diversity. You have studied sociology and it seems you found it interesting. The paper is not that long and it seems you've had at least a little time on your hands over the past few days. I wonder if you'd prefer not to read it as it might challenge your predjudices.

"So what's left is the need for constantly updated data and study on social phenomenon to understand the world in which we live."

I couldn't agree more. Without this no one's predjudices would ever be challenged. LS was wrong when he wrote "truth is unavoidable". Truth is, unfortunately, always avoidable by anyone who wishes to do so. It is reality that is unavoidable.

Dan Green

I tried posting this earlier but it seems to have disappeared.

LS: As expected a whole series of shut up arguments.

"Dan Green, you have stepped into Looking Glass Land."

That would be shut up argument iii/ ad hominem.

"There is only one person in this whole discussion who has tried to say "everybody else don't listen":
Rod Liddle."

That would be shut up argument vii/ implication of paranoia. In fact a number of posters have being trying to tell people 'shut up and don't listen'. In particular yourself with virtually every post you have made. You are simply a bit more articulate about it than RL. Perhaps you've had more practise.

"All of us anti-racists are happy for all opinions to be aired, in the knowledge that any open-minded person of reasonable degree of wit and intellect will be able to see which side of the argument is using reason, and which side is wilfully twisting facts, avoiding answering criticism and putting doctrine before evidence."

A slightly more articulate variation on iii/

"You lose."

Another more straightforward variation on iii. Perhaps you could make it more varied next time, maybe point out my spelling mistakes or tell me to stay on topic.

Robin Fox

The argument that multiculturalism is either a necessary or sufficient condition for this behavior (of young Afro-Carribean males)seems weak. Comparable behavior was evident in the early twentieth century among Nazi Germans against Jews and sicilian Italian gang members in America. Not to mention British settlers against Tasmanian native people in the nineteenth century.

John-Bull anti-vaccine

Dan Green - Once again you need to widen your (very limited) understanding. Start with a quick read up of the hypothetico-deductive model.

"But why would it be invaluable or even useful. Unless you are assuming that a method for analysing data in the past will be useful in the future. Which would be inductive reasoning." No, because it's standard procedure to have a good understanding all methods of investigation and their weaknesses, whether you use them in the future or not. Double-blind randomised controlled trials are not used now, that does not mean that the method is not worth understanding and it is still taught to all statistics students.

"I wonder if you'd prefer not to read it as it might challenge your predjudices." I won't read it because it's up to me how I choose to spend my time. If you would like it critiqued by a Sociologist, please join the British Sociological Association and read the reviews in the free journal they send you. Should I have chosen to critique it and the critique did not meet your approval, whould you have taken it on board. I think not. It's been repeatedly shown on this thread that young Black aren't responsible for the, "ovewhelming majority" of certain crimes in London, but that hasn't stopped people writing in in support. And on that point, there is this gem, "Truth is, unfortunately, always avoidable by anyone who wishes to do so. It is reality that is unavoidable." By someone like you. Who has moved from the question in hand to one of 'diversity' and 'social breakdown'. You can attempt to preempt Ludlow Spink's criticism that you should stick to the point, but that doesn't mean he won't be right. So why not deal with the points that Ludlow Spinks makes, is he right or is he wrong.

Verity

Ann Cryer - see logdon a few posts above - is an outstanding MP and it puzzles me that she doesn't get more media coverage.

She has long campaigned for an incest law against first cousin marriages. As we know, this is a tribal custom of the Muslims involving succeeding generations. We all know (well, everyone but the Muslims, who seem a bit slow off the mark in this - maybe due to inbreeding) that incest, especially generation after generation, produces terrible birth defects.

I read somewhere, about a year ago, that British Pakistanis accounted for 3.4 per cent of all births but have 30 per cent of all British children with recessive disorders.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-513388/Minister-Muslim-inbreeding-Britain-causing-massive-surge-birth-defects.html#ixzz0ZZilpfMl

Some of the incest-related birth defects are so severe that the ensuing issue will not only never be productive, but will spend its whole life as a medical limpet on the NHS.

****

I don't understand this.
If having a Multicultural society means that the majority of crime is committed by young black men(which it isn't), then surely that's no worse than having a monoculture where the majority of crime is committed by young white men.

At least we get the goat curry this way.

Malcolm

Hairynoddy: "British people owe immigrants precisely nothing."

^Tell that to Gordon. The fact of the matter is, wannabe racists like you think the whole non-white world owes YOU something (Forgiveness perhaps? Or is it gratitude?) . You walk around with the biggest chip, nah scratch that, the biggest boulders on your shoulders, always playing the victim. "Poor me, poor me, these ethnics are gonna come take the things I stole from them in the first place...or worse." That's just your conscience fucking with you son. Relax. This innate paranoia, I find quite amusing. Because of course, you had nothing to do with empire and therefore nothing to fear. Your sense of superiority is wholly appropriated and simulated, and therefore just a figment of your imagination. In real life you're most likely knuckle dragging, white lightning drinking, illiterate scum. And yet you insist on vicariously adopting the perceived glory of an age looong gone for your daily fix of an illusory, ephemeral ego boost, as if you're fooling anybody.

The inescapable consequence of this vicarious spiritual plagiarism though, is that it comes pre-packaged also, with the responsibility for all the crimes against humanity committed by those whom you plagiarise, and without which there could have possibly been no perceived glory. And this is why you feel ethno-fear, however latently or unconciously. Because you have CHOSEN to inherit a very odious legacy - a last resort, having personally failed at life - intrinsic to which are the pre-emptive character assassination strikes, the obsessive counter offensive focus on ethno-aggression that come so naturally to you and your ilk.

I'm not sure if you even know why you do it. It's been normalised to the point where I'm sure you don't even think about it. It's just the way its always been, right? Well here is the reason: you do it out of fear, self-exculpation and justification. Because of course if they are as bad as all that, then they must have deserved it, right? This reasoning occurs in you at a very fundamental level and I doubt you realise it. But I assure you, you have nothing to fear my friend...except the bankers and politicians. They are raping the lot of us as we speak and you want to worry about what I, as a Black man, am doing? What's the matter with you people? Do you even know where your real interests lie?

Let me be absolutely clear: Blacks have never responded in kind (terrorism et al), other oppressed peoples might have, but not Blacks. And yet we are President of the world. That should assauge all of your fears and tell you something about our methodology. If you only look at the bottom then you'll only ever see what lies at the bottom. And judging by this blog, two, or more, can certainly play that game. It's futile really when you think about it. Look up once in a while, you may very well like what you see. Step into the future, we could all grow together into the future, quite profoundly and constructively, or you could keep yearning for an age gone by and stagnate with and wallow in all the evil it invokes. Your choice.

Dan Green

"Dan Green - Once again you need to widen your (very limited) understanding. Start with a quick read up of the hypothetico-deductive model"

The hypothico-deductive model may provide all kinds of valuable insights into scientific methodology. The general principle of scepticism is one that reasonable people should agree with, whether or not they are scientists. The principle that science should always be looking to test its theories, look for falsification and always remembering that evidence can never prove any theory but only either falsify or corroborate it to a greater or lesser extent degree is a good one. The scepticism of science played a large part in dragging society out of the middle age and making the world more civilised. The world would be a much better place if there were more of it.

Having said all that the one thing that the model does not seem to me to do is get rid of induction. It uses the notion of corroboration and says that scientists should discard falsified theories in favour of corroborated ones. But the question that then arises is why? If corroboration is simply the absence of a reason to disbelieve a theory then that is not enough for anyone to adopt it. People must have an inclination to use induction, for going from the particular to the general for the purposes of making predictions otherwise a well corroborated theory would be of no interest to anyone including scientists. A person might think for example that scientific theories vary in their predictive strength over time. They might say that a theory that is consistently falsified now could regain strength in the future while a theory that is strongly corroborated now might ‘run out of energy’ and that it is therefore better to use the falsified theory for making predictions. Scientists and others only reject this idea due to induction. The hypothico-deductive model may useful in some ways but I don’t think it gets rid of induction, it simply sneaks it in under the name of corroboration.

“No, because it's standard procedure to have a good understanding all methods of investigation and their weaknesses, whether you use them in the future or not. Double-blind randomised controlled trials are not used now, that does not mean that the method is not worth understanding and it is still taught to all statistics students.”

Again why would it be worth understanding? How could knowing what the weaknesses and strengths of a method in the past will give the slightest even the slightest clue as to what might be a good method to devise for a future investigation. It is only of any interest to anyone, scientist or not, if we believe – with however much philosophical doubt - that evidence from the can predict the future and for that we need induction.

“I won't read it because it's up to me how I choose to spend my time.”

Fair play. Although that by itself is not sufficient to ensure that you won’t read it, it must also be true that you have no interest in reading it. Fair enough, as you say its your time. But given that you show yourself very keen to focus people on evidence such as the England & Wales murder figures which make implausible RL’s assertions about London crime I think it is telling that you are totally uninterested in evidence, either that which I mentioned or this abstract http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1143202
that a previous poster mentioned that indicate that diversity causes crime. You clearly think, with however much appropriate scepticism that diversity does not, by itself, cause crime and yet you have no interest in testing that proposition.

“Should I have chosen to critique it and the critique did not meet your approval, whould you have taken it on board. I think not. It's been repeatedly shown on this thread that young Black aren't responsible for the, "ovewhelming majority" of certain crimes in London, but that hasn't stopped people writing in in support.”

If I thought the critique was good I would absolutely take it on board. I would very much like to be convinced that I am wrong about this. We in the west all live in an increasingly diverse society and I would be much more optimistic about the future if I thought you were right about this. I think you are using shut up argument iii. suggesting that I am a closed minded bigot. I have taken your critique on board when it has been good. For example I said ‘science is based on induction’ and ‘surely everyone agrees with that’. I had a vague memory of Popper’s ideas about induction not being part of science from my undergraduate days but had a vague idea that this notion was no longer current and lazily thought I could simply assert my viewpoint without covering it in the argument. I’m enjoying this argument in part because you are so aggressive and comprehensive as a devil’s advocate.

“And on that point, there is this gem, "

I thought you didn’t approve of sarcasm

“Truth is, unfortunately, always avoidable by anyone who wishes to do so. It is reality that is unavoidable." By someone like you. Who has moved from the question in hand to one of 'diversity' and 'social breakdown'.”

Diversity is just my shorthand for a multicultural society and crime is clearly connected with the breakdown of society (although if you have evidence that falsifies that proposition I would be glad to hear it). That is clearly related to the original post.

“You can attempt to preempt Ludlow Spink's criticism that you should stick to the point,”

I can indeed

“but that doesn't mean he won't be right.”

I see you’re using shut up argument v/ suggesting I’m going off topic and shouldn’t. You’ve snuck in your own use of this shut up argument by referring to Ludlow’s use of it and the gently suggesting that maybe he has a point

“So why not deal with the points that Ludlow Spinks makes, is he right or is he wrong.”

What points. In this entire thread he has made one point. In response to the original post are argued that Black people while disproportionately responsible for crime in London were not overwhelming responsible for it. I would agree with that. However most of the posts he made, including each one he made in reply to me consisted entirely of shut up arguments. A shut up argument isn’t “right or wrong” its just a round about way of saying “shut up”.

Dan Green

Malcolm: "The fact of the matter is, wannabe racists like you think the whole non-white world owes YOU something (Forgiveness perhaps? Or is it gratitude?) . You walk around with the biggest chip, nah scratch that, the biggest boulders on your shoulders, always playing the victim. "Poor me, poor me, these ethnics are gonna come take the things I stole from them in the first place...or worse." That's just your conscience fucking with you son. Relax. This innate paranoia, I find quite amusing. Because of course, you had nothing to do with empire and therefore nothing to fear. Your sense of superiority is wholly appropriated and simulated, and therefore just a figment of your imagination. In real life you're most likely knuckle dragging, white lightning drinking, illiterate scum. And yet you insist on vicariously adopting the perceived glory of an age looong gone for your daily fix of an illusory, ephemeral ego boost, as if you're fooling anybody."

This would be shut up argument iii. the ad hominem

the responsibility for all the crimes against humanity committed by those whom you plagiarise, and without which there could have possibly been no perceived glory...a very odious legacy "

I see. So white imperialist were resposible for all dreadful crimes agaist humanity and everybody else is responsible for nothing. The was no slavery, no slave trade, not war and no genocide before white people turned up. This particular legecy is much more odious than any other. Its not that white imperialists simply had better technology and were therefore better at winning wars.
- a last resort, having personally failed at life - intrinsic to which are the pre-emptive character assassination strikes, the obsessive counter offensive focus on ethno-aggression that come so naturally to you and your ilk.

"I'm not sure if you even know why you do it. It's been normalised to the point where I'm sure you don't even think about it. It's just the way its always been, right? Well here is the reason: you do it out of fear, self-exculpation and justification. Because of course if they are as bad as all that, then they must have deserved it, right? This reasoning occurs in you at a very fundamental level and I doubt you realise it."

A very eleborate version of shut up argument iii.

"you have nothing to fear my friend...except the bankers and politicians. They are raping the lot of us as we speak"

As I explained in an earlier post, I think the policies of both unrestricted immigration and multiculturalism are designed precisly to promote the interests of the bankers and politians. Those on the so-called left who so aggressively support these policies are just acting as the usful idiots of those same bankers and politicians.

"What's the matter with you people? Do you even know where your real interests lie?"

More of iii

"Let me be absolutely clear: Blacks have never responded in kind (terrorism et al), other oppressed peoples might have, but not Blacks."

Really. Wasn't there a chap called Nelson Mandela who was involved in some kind of terrorist campain. When he was arrested didn't he then use his legal training in the court system, both legecies of western civilisation. Might one not suspect that if he had tried any of that shit against the dictatorship of Amin or bokassa or even Jerry Rawlings that he would have been shot out of hand.

"And yet we are President of the world."

You are not president. I thought you didn't belive in collective responsibility but if you do do you not feel some collective guilt for the disproportionate amount of crime commited by young black men.

"That should assauge all of your fears and tell you something about our methodology. If you only look at the bottom then you'll only ever see what lies at the bottom. And judging by this blog, two, or more, can certainly play that game. It's futile really when you think about it. Look up once in a while, you may very well like what you see. Step into the future, we could all grow together into the future, quite profoundly and constructively, or you could keep yearning for an age gone by and stagnate with and wallow in all the evil it invokes. Your choice."

Another eleborate shut up argument type iii

James J

“Benefits of a multi-cultural Britain”? I thought this was one of those “Smallest Books in the World” competitions.

John Bull anti-vaccine

Dan Green - "I had a vague memory of Popper’s ideas about induction not being part of science from my undergraduate days but had a vague idea that this notion was no longer current and lazily thought I could simply assert my viewpoint without covering it in the argument."

No you didn't. It's pretty obvious that you know nothing about the epistemology of the social or physical sciences and you taking a quick five minute read of Wikipedia only reveals how little you know. Didn't know the difference between inductive and deductive logic, but now you know of Karl Popper from your undergraduate days Please!

- "I’m enjoying this argument in part because you are so aggressive and comprehensive as a devil’s advocate."

Aggressive? Moi? Only according to you. I've received thanks for my civil posts here, so I guess that's all in your head too. And of course there is no argument. You and all the other right-wing ranters on here don't have a point, hence why you and they have felt the need to move from the discussion (note that word) to notions of diversity (yep that's your shorthand alright), genetics, disproportionate representation of Black youth in crime, Muslim rape (!) in fact anything but the question in hand.

- "I thought you didn’t approve of sarcasm." Why did you think that? You don't know me, you know nothing about me and I've never written on here that I don't approve of sarcasm. I find your lack of knowledge a bit laughable, so please continue to post, as I've said before I've yet to break a sweat responding.

And above all, thanks for the laughs. Reading your posts I have to say it's been a while since I've read so much uninformed nonsense. But lawdy miss Maudie it's fun watching you tie yourself up in knots!

HairyNoddy

I have responded twice to the hysterical nonsense put forward by the anti english bigots, but my responses seem to have 'got lost'.

Apparently they are allowed to launch personal attacks on me and my race, and I am not allowed to respond.

In2minds

James J @ 10.03am – Oh so true!

HairyNoddy

"You and all the other right-wing ranters on here don't have a point, hence why you and they have felt the need to move from the discussion (note that word) to notions of diversity (yep that's your shorthand alright), genetics, disproportionate representation of Black youth in crime, Muslim rape (!) in fact anything but the question in hand."

How can you justify continuing with a multicult agenda when you have a disproportionate representation of immigrant youth in crime IS the question in hand.

Dave N

These figures are from the Home Office ( quoted in the Daily Telegraph in Jan. 2002) :-
In London, where eight per cent of the population aged over 10 is black, about 70 per cent of those accused of stealing mobile phones last year were black. White youths were the victims in the vast majority of cases, followed by Asian youths.

In Birmingham, 54 per cent of the robbers were black, 34 per cent Asian and nine per cent white. The victims were 79 per cent white, 23 per cent Asian and six per cent black.

Successive governments have worked tirelessly to create this wonderful multi-cultural, multi-racial paradise for them and still the kids just won't play nicely together. I blame the parents.

John Bull anti-vaccine

Hairy Noddy - "How can you justify continuing with a multicult agenda when you have a disproportionate representation of immigrant youth in crime IS the question in hand."

Easy, I don't have a multicult (was your hand tired typing) agenda: it's another one of the phantoms in your head along with you being slandered - we know you meant libel - and the vicious anti-English slurs you have been subject to. And it isn't the question in hand.

Do you still have Big Ears?

Next!

heidi23

I'm getting a little irritated with some of our 'anglo-saxon' fellow subjects on this, our shared island home. Some, like dear Rod, seem to have imported certain 'Germanic' attitudes along with the sausage meat. Is there some way of enticing the Rods back to Saxony or Oslo (or wherever)?

HairyNoddy

Malcy: Your e-diahorrea impresses no one.

The simple fact is that you can't justify your earlier assertion that whites are more violent when only 57 % of murders in the UK are caused by whites when they make up 90 % of the population.

I've asked you to do so twice and you ran away. I also asked you to justify your statement that all paedophiles are white, again you failed miserably.

But let's forget about that, I've got a few more facts for you to mull over, if your drug addled brain is capable of doing so.

I'm looking at the Statistics on Race and the Criminal Justice System – 2006/7, downloadable from http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/bsp/hi/pdfs/08_07_08_race_criminal_justice.pdf

Have a look at table 3.5 on page 21

According to the stats referred to by your fellow whitey hater, the black population of the uk is around 6% of the total, 3.2 million people including mixed race people with one black parent.

http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk/dissemination/LeadTableView.do;jsessionid=ac1f930b30d675c5bdca9c244f639b25d60a19c01f4d?a=3&b=276743&c=London&d=13&e=13&g=325264&i=1001x1003x1004&m=0&r=1&s=1260648593015&enc=1&dsFamilyId=1812&nsjs=true&nsck=true&nssvg=false&nswid=1280

According to the stats linked to by your fellow whitey hater, only around 6% of the UK's population are black, but in the document I gave the link I just provided, they commit around 12% (290 / 2241) of the murders. So to spell it out for your underdeveloped brain, they are twice as likely to commit murder than your average Brit. How can this be, Malcy, my idiot pal?

"Tell that to Gordon"
Who, Gordon Brown? As if I had any use for that fat incompetent traitorous idiot's approval.

"Let me be absolutely clear: Blacks have never responded in kind (terrorism et al), other oppressed peoples might have, but not Blacks."
Really? Weren't the ANC a black organisation?
1983: Car bomb in South Africa kills 16
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/may/20/newsid_4326000/4326975.stm
Forgotten already what a Soweto necklace was and why they were used?

"And yet we are President of the world."
No, you are not president of the world, I doubt that you are even president of your own toilet. Obama is the president of the USA. He will be in for one term only, then he will be unceremoniously dumped. The americans who were duped into voting for this fraud are now coming to their senses. I predict a major backlash agains political correctness and affirmative action in the US. Obama's approval rating is now down below 40% and falling.

The rest of your garbage comment isn't worth responding to.

Dan Green

JBAV: More shut up arguments

Hairy Noddy - "How can you justify continuing with a multicult agenda when you have a disproportionate representation of immigrant youth in crime IS the question in hand."

"Easy, I don't have a multicult (was your hand tired typing) agenda:"

In other words 'Shut up, I've been very careful not to say anything positive at all so don't presume to say what my agenda is.'

"it's another one of the phantoms in your head along with you being slandered"

'Shut up, you sound delusional so maybe you should shut up.'

" - we know you meant libel - "

Next shut up argument, pedantry. 'You're mixing up your words mate, so you might want to shut up.'

"and the vicious anti-English slurs you have been subject to."

'Shut up you still sound delusional'

"And it isn't the question in hand."

'Shut up. You're going off topic. I will tell you what's off topic and if you want to go off topic you should shut up.'

"Do you still have Big Ears?"

'Shut up, or I will continue to taunt you with my sarcasm'

"Next!"

And finally the ironic shut up. 'Please do continue to post, but with me here you're probably better off not bothering'

So in summery, what JBAV are saying is shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up, shut up. I wonder if JBAV has anything else to add to that?

Malcolm

Dan: "So white imperialist were responsible for all dreadful crimes agaist humanity and everybody else is responsible for nothing."

^No, not all. Just theirs. Are you a white imperialist?

Dan: "I think the policies of both unrestricted immigration and multiculturalism are designed precisly to promote the interests of the bankers and politians. Those on the so-called left who so aggressively support these policies are just acting as the usful idiots of those same bankers and politicians."

^Your taxes are about to be increased; your NI is about to be increased; your council tax is about to be increased; pensions are about to reduced; VAT is about to be increased; the price of food, fuel, gas, electricity, and goods are being increased as we speak; your jobs are being shipped overseas to foreign call centres (they're already in their own countries, where are you going to deport them to?); your salary meanwhile is either going to stay the same, be reduced, or you're going to be sacked (losing your home, perhaps family, and in some cases, life, in the process), all in the interests of your employer and the politicians making "efficiency savings" of course, in order to ride out the recession, you understand. A recession which was caused by the wholesale defrauding of the Global bank and the People by the bankers who still keep rewarding themselves to the tune of £Billions.

The bankers, aided and abetted by the politicians whom they fund and sponsor. The same politicians who have sold out the UK and its people into Europe without their permission, and right under their noses. Your manufacturing industry is extinct, having been exported to China and elsewhere; your foreign policy is determined by the US and the EU; and your finances are dependent largely on the benevolence of China and the IMF. If you can tell me, cogently and clearly, exactly how multiculturalism and immigration caused any of the above, I will publicly declare here that you have won me over. For all of this to happen in the supposed oldest, most mature democracy in the world is baffling to say the least. The terms "useful idiots", "red herrings", and "misdirection" most certainly spring to mind.

Dan: "Wasn't there a chap called Nelson Mandela who was involved in some kind of terrorist campain."

^Now you're just being desperate, Dan. So terrorising he was that they made him president of the entire country to thank him. LOL! By that logic, Bin Laden might just be unto something after all. I can see the bumper stickers now: "OBL for POTUS 2012". LMAO! Oh, that's President Of The United States by the way.

Dan: "You are not president. I thought you didn't belive in collective responsibility"

^I don't. You do. Funny how you, Rod and co. find it so easy to assign collective responsibility to the entire black race for the actions of 2 idiots at the bottom of the totem pole, but find it soul destroyingly impossible to do the same for the white race, or from the top for the Black race. You can't even be consistent with your belief in collective responsibilty. I know it's the collective you have a racist problem with, which is why I used the pronoun "we" deliberately as a collective noun. Your response (and Noddy's) proves it. Oh and Noddy, I might not be president, but neither are you great, a conquerer, nor any of the other EDL and BNP nationalistic fantasies/delusions of grandeur. Neither of you can barely write grammatically correct or intelligible English for a start. Not exactly the makings of true English nationalists, wouldn't you agree? It's time to get your heads out the clouds my friends...before life passes you by.

Like I said "...we could all grow together into the future, quite profoundly and constructively, or you could keep yearning for an age gone by and stagnate with and wallow in all the evil it invokes. Your choice."

John Bull anti-vaccine

Oh dear Dan Green, shame you still don't have anything to say but you try your best to hide away behind accusations you're being told to be quiet. Not one rebuttal.

The opposite is true of course, I told you to post away. And sure you're afraid of posting whilst I'm here, you are after all just printing nonsense you cadged from Wikipedia and trying to pass it off as your undegraduate studies.

Bobi (^_^)

The sad reality is that just because a country is supposedly civilised, diverse & multicultural that does not mean prejudices & bigotry do not exist. Most people make this mistake: diversity + multiculturalism = tolerance & justice – it is definitely not the case as discrimination, intolerance & xenophobia exists today more than ever but it’s just masked & disguised as there are laws against it.

Dan Green

Malcolm:

“^No, not all. Just theirs. Are you a white imperialist?”

No I am not. The white imperialists these days are people like David Cameron, George Bush & Tony Blair, who have promoted imperialist War abroad and multiculturalism at home.

^Your taxes are about to be increased … Your manufacturing industry is extinct, having been exported to China and elsewhere; your foreign policy is determined by the US and the EU; and your finances are dependent largely on the benevolence of China and the IMF. If you can tell me, cogently and clearly, exactly how multiculturalism and immigration caused any of the above, I will publicly declare here that you have won me over.”

All of the above are a product of corporatist globalisation, and multiculturalism and immigration are a vital aspect of this process. Immigration works most straightforwardly to do this by increasing the supply of labour and therefore increasing the bargaining power of employers at the expense of employees.

Multiculturalism works to do this because, as has been show in the 2007 Putnam study I mentioned in earlier posts (and I don’t wish to keep going on about it but it is a telling piece of evidence), the greater the ethnic diversity of an area the less social capital there is. There is less trust between people. People become more mistrustful of their neighbours, less like to vote more cynical about the world, less likely to volunteer and so on. Where there is less of a sense of common identity then there is less of a sense of individuals identifying with the wider society. The evidence suggests this is true not only between ethnic groups but also within them. The benefits to politicians and their patrons of having increasingly socially isolated and cynical populations are obvious.

But beyond that the whole notion of ‘anti-racism’ is there to bolster the corporate globalist agenda. If we are all the same, if there are in reality no ethnicities or races, if we are all interchangeable, then there can be no fundamental objection to a globalist agenda. Why not support the agenda of the EU, the WTO etc that are serving to bring nations closer together. If someone opposed that he could be called racist. I fact why not support wars in Iraq and Afganistan. You could argue that these wars are being fought to bring democracy and free markets to these places and then denounce those who oppose it as ‘racist’.

That last argument might seem a bit of a stretch but it has been made. In fact its not a stretch at all. The concept of ‘racism’ was invented by Trotsky as a way of getting the non-whites of the world to support communist revolution against the white supremacist empires of the time. Now, of course, white supremacism is itself a form of multiculturalism. As the European empires fell and the various multinational institutions (the UN, EU, WTO, NATO and all the other US military alliances etc) arose to take their place the politicians and bankers could then use this ideology of ‘anti-racism’ to further their own agenda. A concept invented to support Marxist tyranny and dictatorship works just as well for capitalists.

“For all of this to happen in the supposed oldest, most mature democracy in the world is baffling to say the least. The terms "useful idiots", "red herrings", and "misdirection" most certainly spring to mind.”

They certainly do. The misdirection is in more than one direction. You have ‘conservatives’ like the Republican party in the US who wrap themselves in the flag to justify foreign wars but at the same time consistently vote to support open borders. Then you have the ‘centre left’ like New Labour and Barak Obama who passionately support ‘anti-racism’ at home and imperialist wars abroad. Of course Obama is a global imperialist and George Bush was an ‘anti-racist’. Then you have all the people, including the so called left who support the one policy and not the other without realising that they are different aspects of the same thing.

“Dan: "Wasn't there a chap called Nelson Mandela who was involved in some kind of terrorist campain." ^Now you're just being desperate, Dan. So terrorising he was that they made him president of the entire country to thank him. LOL! By that logic, Bin Laden might just be unto something after all. I can see the bumper stickers now: "OBL for POTUS 2012". LMAO! Oh, that's President Of The United States by the way.”

Whatever your opinion of whether the ANC (oh, that’s African National Congress by the way) terrorist campaign was justified it's well know that there was an ANC terrorist campaign led by Nelson Mandela. As in many countries -including of course Ireland, Isreal and various parts of Africa- former terrorists got voted into office.

“Dan: "You are not president. I thought you didn't belive in collective responsibility"
^I don't. You do. Funny how you, Rod and co. find it so easy to assign collective responsibility to the entire black race for the actions of 2 idiots at the bottom of the totem pole, but find it soul destroyingly impossible to do the same for the white race, or from the top for the Black race. You can't even be consistent with your belief in collective responsibilty. I know it's the collective you have a racist problem with, which is why I used the pronoun "we" deliberately as a collective noun. Your response (and Noddy's) proves it.”

I certainly do not believe in collective responsibility. I didn’t mention the crime referred to in RL’s original blog in any of my comments. It would be as preposterous to assign collective guilt to blacks for street crime as it would to assign collective guilt to whites for ‘racism’

“Neither of you can barely write grammatically correct or intelligible English for a start. Not exactly the makings of true English nationalists, wouldn't you agree? It's time to get your heads out the clouds my friends...before life passes you by.”

Another shut up argument here ad hominem.

“Like I said "...we could all grow together into the future, quite profoundly and constructively, or you could keep yearning for an age gone by and stagnate with and wallow in all the evil it invokes. Your choice."”

The trouble is all this rhetoric of universal solidarity, while appearing to treat the symptoms of our society is, in reality, used to encourage the disease.

Dan Green

JBAV: Another series of shut up arguments.

“Not one rebuttal.”

Rebuttal of what? When you point out what you say are specific flaws in what I have written I have been happy to respond. But how should I respond to these kinds of shut up arguments? By arguing a defence my character? If I were to respond in that way it would be to miss the point of this kind of argument. The purpose of shut up arguments is not to make a point it is to shut people up.

“The opposite is true of course, I told you to post away.”

Ah, the ironic shut up argument. Your purpose seems to be to shut people up. Just telling people explicitly ‘shut up’ would not achieve that purpose. The argument you use here is ‘well feel free to post away but frankly, considering I’m here I’m not sure why you bother, so you might want to think about shutting up.’

The rest of your post here is more shut up arguments as is the whole of your previous post as well.

Get real Quick!!

Hi Rod, hope all is well with you. I hate to burst your bubble but I think you need to read your own article. Do you relly believe that in a society were where African -cariibeans make up 2% that we are responsible for all sexually violent crimes? So are you suggesting there was no rape, or sexual deviation prior to the last 20 years? get real. Jack the Ripper, Myra Hindley, Fred and Rose West, The Church evented by white people for white people to commit acts of deviance on young white people seeking religious teaching, and sanctioned by the Pope. Robbery- you don't mention white collar crime, the banks are they not guilty of High street robberies of peoples savings again santioned by the governement. Knife Crime/ Gun crime where do young people get these items from, generally white people who either sell them in their shops or on the black market. In my area you can buy a gun for 80 quid from some white bloke in a pub. As for cuury goat, if you ever put a dinner on and invite white europeans to take part, you'll be lucky to get any at all. Trust me

Lupus Lungfish

I love Ludlow- the town that is.

Herbert Thornton

Despite two more attempts, it seems hard to get my point across - which is that while it is good that Ron should draw attention to one of the evils that multiculturalism has led to - i.e. the very nasty crimes committed by some of the black Afro-Carribean community - it is a mistake to make no mention of the other result of multiculturalism that is far more dangerous.

We all know of course what it is - it is the presence and rapid expansion in Britain of Islam - which of necessity includes extremist Islam.

Why are so many people so determined that discussion of it must be avoided?

HairyNoddy

There was an inaccuracy in some of the statistics which I used in a previous post.

I said that blacks were twice as likely to commit murder as your average Brit on the basis that they committed 290 of 2241 murders. 2241 is the total number of murders, including ones without a current suspect.

I should of course have used the number of murders where a suspect is know, which is 1792.

What I should have said is that they committed 290 of 1792 murders, which is about 16.2%.

So they are almost 3 times as likely to commit murder as your average Brit.

My apologies.

Dan Green

HairyNoddy: I beleive the statistics you are quoting are what are called Hate Facts. How can you be so cruel? All we have to do is say 'I do beleive in fairies' and a wonderful peaceful and harmonious multicultural future await us all. If you go aroung quoting Hate Facts then Tinkerbell will die.

John Bull Anti-Vaccine

HairyNoddy:

Now it'll be interesting to see whether - at the third attempt - this gets published.

"I said that blacks were twice as likely to commit murder as your average Brit". So your, "average Brit", can't be Black?
Whether you estimate Black people are twice or three times as likely to commit murder is irrelevant, no such calculation can be made.

Dan Green - "Ah, the ironic shut up argument." Well, according to you. A request to you to continue to post is really an ironic shut up argument. If you're popping into the bookshop before Christmas, best buy a dictionary along with An Introduction to Basic Scientific Methods. Other than that it seems you still have nothing of any substance to say but seem to take an inordinately long amount of space to say it.

Dan Green

My last post hasn’t appeared so lets see if this does.

JBAV: “Whether you estimate Black people are twice or three times as likely to commit murder is irrelevant, no such calculation can be made. “

It is perfectly clear what is meant. HairyNoddy’s analysis is that Black people in Britain are three times more likely to commit murder than non-black people. It is certainly possible to compare murder rates among the black and non-black populations in this way. Perhaps you mean ‘no such calculation should be made as it could result in the discovery of a Hate Fact.’

“Dan […] space to say it.”

Yet more shut up arguments. Are you able to attempt to find some flaw in what I have written in the last few posts? I would have thought that a trained social scientist like your self could give it a go.

You say that the various statements I have identified as shut up arguments are not meant to shut people up. Well then what exactly is their purpose? They certainly don’t identify any flaws in another’s argument. They don’t give a clear idea of what your own position is. Would you say what the purpose is or am I to be blessed with more shut up arguments? I notice you haven’t used the big one yet, you haven’t called me a racist. Isn’t that the description for anyone who comes out with hate facts.

Your position, as far as it can be made out, seems to be the standard ‘anti-racist’ position. What I and others are saying is ‘racist’. ‘Racism’ is eeeeeevil and must be attacked. This can be done by finding flaws in the arguments of the ‘racists’ but if one is unable to do this then just say anything to try and shut the ‘racist’ up and let others know that they shouldn’t listen. It is the so called left that is motivated by hate and this bogus concept of ‘racism’ provides it with a something to hate. Most importantly it provides a way in which the ‘left’ can support the establishment’s globalisation agenda while imagining itself to be radical.

John Bull anti-vaccine

Dan Green - "It is perfectly clear what is meant. HairyNoddy’s analysis is that Black people in Britain are three times more likely to commit murder than non-black people. It is certainly possible to compare murder rates among the black and non-black populations in this way. Perhaps you mean ‘no such calculation should be made as it could result in the discovery of a Hate Fact.’"

No I didn't, but it's not unusual for your understanding of technical issues to be limited or absent. The terminology is yours, I've never heard of a, "Hate Fact". The numbers that Noddy presented are not a murder rate, that is your misconception. In exactly the same way that presenting a percentage of murders attributed to particular ethnic groups does not inform you about their likelihood of comitting murder. But then accuracy of data seems little to matter to people like you and Noddy.

I would like now to deal with the other points in your e-mail, but unsurprisingly you still don't have any.

Dan Green

“The numbers that Noddy presented are not a murder rate, that is your misconception.”

You’re quite right, they are apparently for murder suspects so they wouldn’t be 100% accurate in given the percentages of actual murderers. Who knows maybe 2/3rds of them are innocent victims of racism.

“In exactly the same way that presenting a percentage of murders attributed to particular ethnic groups does not inform you about their likelihood of comitting murder.”

No for that you would need to compare the proportion of suspects with the proportion of the general population. But if I’ve understood the maths wrong then feel free to explain how one would estimate the differences in crime rates for different ethnic groups. Perhaps you could show the statistical analysis on which you based your statement “paedeophilia being almost exclusively perpetrated by White people.” Alternatively you could just denounce the figures as wrong without explanation.

“I've never heard of a, "Hate Fact".

Or a sense of humour apparently

Apart from that more shut up arguments. ‘Racism’ is heresy. The heretics must be wrong. They must be shown to be in error if possible. But if that is not possible they must be denounced and shut up.

Malcolm

Been away for a bit so I'll pick up from where I left off: @ Dan's December 16th, 2009 2:42am post...

Wow Dan! It takes a certain amount of skill to write so much...and still say nothing! Let it never be said that this man doesn't possess talent :-)

You're living in an abstract world Dan. Wake up. You keep making references to, and clinging unto, grandiose abstract concepts (which I doubt you fully grasp) as if they are somehow sentient, independent, self perpetuating, conniving living entities that are somehow planning on attacking and taking over the human race. Or in yours, Rod's and Noddy's case: the British white race. I would call you a narcissist but that'd be an insult to them; you my friend are much farther gone than that - you are a fantasist. Do you really believe that these concepts grew minds of their own, arms and legs, and increased your taxes and did all the other things that I listed in my previous post to you, yours, and all of us?

Are you so blinded by hate that you'd happily reduce yourself to the intellect of a frog in this way, and not realise that you are being boiled alive? That the waters in which you bask are being heated up gradually around you and the only people with the means to do that are the political and royal class? We are all in those same waters, mind you. Only difference is, most of us know who's doing the heating, and are therefore better prepared and less prone to mental-illness-triggering disappointment; Which is what WILL happen to you, Rod and co. when it finally sinks in that the world has moved on and simply won't allow Britain to resurrect Hitler's "Final Solution" in an attempt to ethnically cleanse this land of Blacks, ethnics and others. I would choose a much more realistic target like finding and addressing the true source of your real life "problems" if I were you.

The simple fact is, there is an ultra exclusive, ultra self-serving club in this country and you don't belong to it...along with about 90% of the population. Nor will you ever. And that's all there is to it. They're pulling your leg mate. Your job is to find out why. There is no bogey man, no human-attacking, sentient, abstract concepts; no, none of that childish nonsense. Just you being misdirected and fully utilised as one of a number of highly useful idiots who keep the "club" intact and yourselves in perpetual "purgatory", for want of a better word. That's what you need to get to grips with.

Here, let me help you distill that vacuously verbose post of yours to its pith:

Dan: "...why not support wars in Iraq and Afganistan. You could argue that these wars are being fought to bring democracy and free markets to these places and then denounce those who oppose it as ‘racist’...That last argument might seem a bit of a stretch...In fact its not a stretch at all...A concept invented to support Marxist tyranny and dictatorship works just as well for capitalists...the politicians and bankers...use this ideology of ‘anti-racism’ to further their own agenda."

^Oh I get it, Dan reckons it is our duty to be racist; we must all be urgently racist, otherwise...the "corporatist globalist" cookie monster is going to devour the white British population with all its "anti-racism", aaargh! Quick, be racist, now! You have not a moment to lose...according to desperate Dan. What a bloody muppet you are. You ought to go sit in a darkened corner of your room and ponder and debug your mind, son...

You can start with these 5 questions: "If I am not racist, why do I have such a big problem with anti-racism? Is it because I aspire to be a racist one day? Is the fact that I try to misplace my induced resentment towards the victims of my nation's 500yr murderous foreign policy - all acts which they committed in my name (and with which I agree), and for which they (the government, and therefore me, for whom they speak) are now seeking penitence via restorative, healing, civil mechanisms such as political correctness - over and above the true, real, on-going and actual hurt, pain, and loss of those victims, not abominable? If my government didn't do it in my name, then why am I not angry with them, why am I further attacking their victims? Could their victims possibly construe this as me agreeing with my government's policy?"

And while you're pondering away in that little dark corner, remember these comments of yours, made on Dec 10 3.33pm:

Dan: "...he also argued that whites are more likely to be guilty of peodophilia. Now...if this is the case...it suggests that different ethnic groups have either genetic or cultural tendencies towards different kinds of crime. If that is true then surely its better to admit the problems rather than pretent they don't exist."

^Realise what you just did there son?

[shakes head ruefully and exits blog]

M Pearle

Well done for pointing out that the Emperor has no Clothese. Some groups commit substantially larger amounts of violent crime & this should be openly addressed. Governments who turn a blind eye to this and don't take it into account in immigration policy are negligent.

John Bull anti-vaccine

I noticed The Spectator seemed to be having trouble with it's server yesterday, so I am reposting this.

Dan Green - "But if I’ve understood the maths wrong then feel free to explain how one would estimate the differences in crime rates for different ethnic groups." Well I could, but it wouldn't be a good use of my time. If you want an education, go out and get one.

"Perhaps you could show the statistical analysis on which you based your statement “paedeophilia being almost exclusively perpetrated by White people.” I could, but then I've done enough work with data on here, as has Malcolm. Instead, why don't you show me the, "ovewhelming majority", of crimes of paedophilia which have been carried out by young Black African-Caribbean males. "Alternatively you could just denounce the figures as wrong without explanation." Did I write that. No. What I wrote was that Noddy (such an appropriate monicker)could not derive the conclusion that he posited from the figures that he presented and that that calcuation could not be made from the data that he referred to either. Another example of you reading what you want to read rather than what was actually written.

""I've never heard of a, "Hate Fact". Or a sense of humour apparently"" Oh sure I've heard of a sense of humour. Unusually you weren't funny. I say unusually, because your posts are often unintentionally laugh out loud.

Althea Taylor-Salmon

Mr Liddle - I've been led to your blog by the link on OBV. While I can understand the upset and abhorrence you felt by the article in the Daily Mail about that poor young girl (any decent citizen would be horrified), your comment about Caribbeans is deeply offensive. You need to learn more before you make such comments - there are plenty of us in this country contributing a great deal including helping disadvantaged people (including white people), as well as running businesses that create employment and so much more! From the way your piece is written, if feels like you meant to insult us all and on that score you did a grand job. I hope you feel proud.

John Doe

Grow up. This is the 21st Century, the era of the death of close-mindedness. We have no time for your petty racism.

Kalpana

It is not a particular race that is the problem, but racism. It is not multiculturalism that is the problem, but the lack of it. Paying lip service to the rights of minority groups is not the same thing as ensuring that everyone has equal rights and equal opportunities. You are confusing the symptoms with the cause.

Ruhull Alam

Do you think the cause of this crime is based on their race and culture or the result of living in poverty they are put into by ignorant small minded little d**ks like you?

Cronos

The language that Rod Liddle uses to describe the relationship between multiculturalism and crime is hyperbolic and frankly inflammatory. It may help his career but it doesn't help the discussion.

Having said that there is clear scientific evidence that muticulturalism does indeed encourage crime.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=1143202

http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/cgi-bin/fulltext/118510920/HTMLSTART

"This is the 21st Century, the era of the death of close-mindedness."

If this thread is anything to go by close-mindedness is very much alive and well.

Mike

As a white man in a relationship with a 2nd generation African British woman, I am saddened by the
level of hatred and blinkered ignorance I see below. My Partner is from a large family with an absent father
yet they are all decent, degree-eduated and hard-working children. It's always easier to point out problems than it
is to try and resolve them and it adds no value to the discussion.

There is an underlying social problem and we can't deny it. It's a problem caused by a lack of positive role-models and a perceived
(probably correctly so) lack of opportunity.

It will be inetresting to see the future impact that the election of a black president will have on the current generation of
black american youth. It can only be for the good.

As for the verminous, white, benefit leaching trash that congregate on my leafy Surrey train every day. What can I say....

Josh Lovie

Thank yo for saying what we all know or at least feel to be true. I can't believe that the PCC have censured you over this after one complaint - whereas after over 22,000 for Stephen Gately they didn't - so Jan Moir's facts were true then by default?

Vominion

Truth tellers are always silenced by the blinkered

who cares

I'm so pleased this has been brought to the attention of the PCC. Small-minded to say the least! And as far as I know, it's not 'goat curry', it's curry goat!

Peacemaker

Funny thing is the overwhelming majority of paedophiles tend to of be people of your age and race. Same goes for women who get murdered by their ex-boyfriends, or husbands. Technically two a day or something like that.

So the questions should be, is it safe for children to be taught by white males? And is it safe for white females to be with white males?

Amusingly, the above two comments can be proven by statistical facts.

The type of comments an individual attracts tends to say a lot about a person Ron.

Of course, the race of the victim means squat. You can't promote the hatred with that can you.

You're pretty twisted individual.

John Featherstone

Personally, I'm white and I'm sixteen. But it appears my view is a lot more mature than the below posters. Britain's cultural diversity is nothing but a benefit to everyone in the community, and while many older English people have some odd abhorrence for anything or anyone different, there needs to be a lot more sensible approach.

Do you really believe that, as you've said, someone with a different coloured skin is more liable to commit a crime? The very benefit of the 'melting pot' of our current culture is that this oughtn't make a difference at all - we're living in a time where to say something like that is as ignorant as proclaiming people with red hair are more likely to commit murder.

Still, it's easy for the reporter to portray black people as the 'bad guys' - they've given one, extreme example and (of course) it's a crime committed by black people.

What he neglects to inform anyone is the plethora of stupid, senseless crimes committed by young white people in our society.

This is not a question of ethnicity. This is a question of how the British environment is having an effect on younger people - the education system; the depressing state of towns and the dismal outlook of opportunity.

Rap music is easily criticized as it's a smaller niche and generally more provocative than most music, but you can't take it on face-value - let's not forget that white people are to blame for death metal.

Racists - grow up and have some factual backing, no one wants a Britain where you're the voice of the 'real' British people - I'd be ashamed to be included in such a group.

AJ Crutchfield

Right on cue, (30 March) headline:
"Rapist who dumped victim on rubbish tip escapes deportation (back to People's Republic of Congo) after judge says he 'has right to stay and marry in UK'

I have to choose between sounding like a racist and raising the point (relevant?irrelevant) that he was an immigrant from People's Republic of Congo. Is the insane level of violence seen in some of these non-governed places in the world possibly a factor in the behaviour of their citizens who come to UK? Are you a racist for noting this?

Muriel Quim

At last, someone prepared to state the truth and he gets censured for it! One only has to read the newspapers to realise that this is happening right here, right now.

John Bull anti-vaccine

A J Crutchfield - "Right on cue." Right on cue nothing. One case proves nothing. Want a case of 'home-grown' rape and murder. Here's one with multiple victims for you:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/8593861.stm

But it seems you are stll missing the point. Liddle's assertion was wrong and as the PCC point out his blog was factually inaccurate. Banging on endlessly about a handful of cases doesn't prove him right. Get over it.

Ben Watson

At last - someone brave enough to speak the truth - it's so obvious to anyone living in London. But political correctness suffocates free speech and demonises anyone who states obvious truths.

Richard Pinnell

The kind of foul, incorrect, racist filth that makes me ashamed to be British.

John Bull anti-vaccine

Ben Watson - "At last - someone brave enough to speak the truth -".

Funny how Liddle's blog seems to attract the densest people in the country. His blog was, "factually inaccurate", says the PCC. But then I (and others) pointed that out months ago with data to support our arguments, something Liddle neglected to do. Hardly, "the truth", then is it Mr Watson.

Chantal

Funny, the overwhelming majority of serial killers, paedophiles, child sex abusers, perpetrators of race hate crime and murderers are white be it in London or anywhere else. I myself was indecently assaulted by three white youths at Paddington station several years ago. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, you are so ignorant. Plus the English colonised half the world and perpetrated the most vile acts against those inhabitants, not so alien I don't think, check up your history and get educated. And just for the record we don't like you either!

Mike

Well said, Sir

A french defender of truth

We have exactely the same affair in France.
Eric Zemmour has said "Major part of delinquent in prison are black and arab"...
It's a big scandal in France, since one week.
Political correctness restricts more and more freedom of speech, in France like in Britain, and like in all the western world.
Today it's very difficult to speak freely in europe, but we have to fight for that !

MrJones

"As for the verminous, white, benefit leaching trash that congregate on my leafy Surrey train every day. What can I say...."

Go ahead, anti-white racists can say what they like.

Zoo keeper (Elephant House)

@Ludlow Spinks 10th Dec 3:54pm

"We all agree that there is a problem with young black men in London being over-prone to getting convicted of certain crimes".

What's that Ludlow ?
"... being over-prone to getting convicted of certain crimes." ????

Why not call a spade a spade Ludlow ???

\tracey

I once loved England but not now how can anyone be proud of this its become the dust bin of the world and freedom to talk about it is a thing of the past

Simon Brown

Just to let you know, it's actually called 'Curry Goat', mate.

I agree that immigration does have some nasty side-effects. That said, we don't exactly cover ourselves in glory when we swan off to the Costa Del Dagenham in our droves.

Anyone with a brain would agree that every country's traditions and heritage should be the dominant culture. However, it cannot be doubted that our society does benefit from being a diverse one.

Your comment is inaccurate, vicious, and out-and-out racist. Shame on you.

Celia Hipkin

This is NOT TRUE: Check your facts. While the majority of teenage knife crime deaths IN LONDON were of boys of African or Afro-Caribbean decent, in the rest of the country they were predominantly white. Check this list http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7777635.stm
How you can write with such snideness is beyond me, there is a tragedy here and comments such as yours do nothing to help. You should be ashamed.

I am currently studying teenage violence and knife crime for a research piece. I would be happy to inform you of the facts, although I imagine yo do not operate in the world of truth but rather thrive on fear-mongering and prejudice. Feel free to prove me wrong.

gamerhelp

Found some cool stuff here http://www.gamerfuse.com Lords of Evil “Lords of Evil” is a browser-based kingdom building game with a fantasy theme. Players begin by picking between three races: Humans, Orcs, and Demons. After getting into the game, you'll start with a very basic base, and through building new structures, learning new tech, and upgrading, the goal is to create a powerful force to be reckoned with.

As with other browser-based kingdom sims, a large portion of “Lords of Evil” revolves around attacking other players and defending against them, and also building up your bank of resources in order to continue expanding your empire. This makes the game fun in short bursts, but hard to invest numerous back-to-back hours in.

Rachel Stovold

I am actually disgusted by your obvious stereotyping and also by many of the posts on here!
Firstly, are you saying we have never had street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and sexual violence in London before the arrival of men from the Caribbean? I DONT THINK SO!
“In return we have rap music” (do you have any knowledge of where rap music came from? please don’t include the likes of chipmunk & tinchy stryder as they are just crap, pop, capitalistic moneymaking products. the real rap you should take a look at akala and lowkey! but considering you are an obvious middle class snob with only British white friends you probably can’t relate (how you like when it about yourself?).
And please using the daily mail as your support!!! Read a credible newspaper.
I personally don’t like the term multiculturalism as it means creating difference between people by culture. When truly we are more alike than different! But what really annoys me is people like you use this as a chance to cover up your racism of ‘race’ with cultures. When in reality it’s the same thing!!!!!

Rebecca Jahans

I was going to begin by outing your close-minded, assumptive and frankly rascist genralisations but I can see that an official body has already done so.
I agree completely with Rachels comment. Your blog has no truth, no merit and not a single brain cell behind it. What do have to say on the white people who commit street crime, knife crime and gun crime?

M Pearle

***blog has no truth, no merit and not a single brain cell behind it.***

Not true, he's pointing out consistent trends in crime rates. These are seen around the world. If a group commits 5 times more crime on average, it would make sense to be more careful in your country selection criteria no?

Philip NEWMAN

I gather your name Liddel is of proto-Germanic origin. Of course, there was a time ('the dark ages') when the 'overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime,robbery and crimes of sexual violence were carried out by young men' arriving from northern Europe. Were they 'filth' too?

unknown

Shut up about bring crime my grandparents are from the Caribbean and they did not bring crime down here. That is saying Black people are the ones who mad crime have you seen all the white people that are making crime. My point made THANK YOU!!! :O