Magnificent hypocrisy

Michael Smith

Courage under fire.

Go get em, Rod.

MikeF

I think you could have expressed yourself a tad less emotively in your first blog, Rod, but you were writing about a foul crime and can be forgiven an emotive response. In fact the unremarked issue here is the way that the crime itself - the attempted murder of a pregnant young woman - has not itself created any great wave of revulsion. That is what is so disturbing. As for Ms Abbott and, indeed, the whole 'anti-racist' lobby, there is no shame in being described as racist by any of them because they think that whatever they believe represents an objective standard of rationality against which anything and everyone else can be measured. In reality, of course, all they represent is a stew of conceit and intolerance.

A J Scott

If chess weren't a game played with black and white pieces - totally non PC so they should be brown- one might say you have drawn your critics into a splendid trap (they also helped in making it), and they are about to be mated. Very multicultural.

pregethwr

'That black males do badly, en-masse, in school, was sufficient for Ms Abbott to send her son to a very expensive private school.'

Nope, white boys of a similar poor background do worse than black boys.

I suspect Dianne Abbot's decision was based upon not having to send her son to school with poor people.

Unlike your post which was all about race.

On this one she is not hypocritical, and she is right. Your shtick is old and boring, as well as racist.

rod liddle

pregethwr - you are either a moron or a rogue, and I would bet the former. Read what SHE says.
And white boys of a similar background do not do as badly - although, truth be told, they are sinking fast.

Mike F - I agree with all of that and you express the point with far more eloquence than I did.

Ridcully

pregethwr: So a left-wing politician sending their child to a private school so as not to have to mix with the riff-raff isn't hypocritical?

Andrew

pregethwr, I've realised there are two sorts of people in the world. Ones who call other people racist, and ones who are useful. Christ, I'm sick of the former. The last ever Labour government will be the end of you though. Bye.

Impartia Seacole

Rod. This issue is not about race. It's about being thick. The two are quite distinct. Quite possibly in years to come it will be more disgusting to be considered thickist than racist - who knows? However, the bone-heads amongst us will continue to breed, make trouble and get arrested. They'll feed off the state, resort to violence and behave objectionably. Just like they've always done - regardless of race, creed or football club.

Fearless Frank

Bang on the nail again Rod.
Funny how it's ok for Abbott and Phillips to say these things but not a white man.
Mind you, when Trevor Phillips voiced the idea you quoted, wasn't there a frisson of anxiety among (to use a crude stereotype) the Guardianistas that one so exalted had strayed from the party line?

heckmonwyke

Brilliant but no one in power? is listening.I am afraid this great country has had it destroyed from within good bye GREAT BRITAIN

Baron

Ms Abbot must be regretting by now swapping the cushy sofa of the Thursday’s evening BBC’s chattering slot with Michael and Andrew for the rough and tumble with the Leader of the great unwashed.

pregethwr @ 7.57:

you a mind reader or what? or could the BBC misquoted Ms Abbot? The BBC?

and another thing: what makes you think only poor people with kids live in Hackney?

Olaf Rye

I once worked in Detroit, which is perhaps the murder capitol of the US and an intensely dangerous city after dark. The city is largely black--about 80% of the population is described as 'Afro-American' according to statistical accounts. Most of the local population, that is to say, the blacks, have to live with gangs and murderers and want to see the culprits of crimes locked away but the largely white social services and lobbyists see these people as victims and exhort the courts for leniency when they are charged. As ever, the paladins of multi-culturalism have a dogmatic view of why crime occurs and refuse to depart from the Marxist orthodoxy that links this to poverty.

If you read comments and statements by black social analysts, they identify the breakdown of family as a vital component in seeing many young black males go into crime and have insisted that the tendency in many black communities for the fathers to be absent is quite serious and detrimental. This in itself is not unique to the black communities, but its prevalence is perhaps notable. Add to this a value system which holds education in contempt and regards achievement as 'selling out' and you have a toxic social situation. The pity is, no one listens to these black commentators because to accept that there is a problem might have our cocktail party flotsam and jetsam themselves decried as racist, which is perhaps their greatest fear in this Brave New World.

Augustus

I suspect that the reason Abbott sent her son to 'a very expensive private school' was because she knew perfectly well that the Labour Government's fixation with 'progess' in state schools was not based on whether they develop community cohesion, or focused on proper standards of education, but on issues such as social welfare and so-called 'deprived intakes'
which have resulted in a third of England's pupils leaving primary school without a proper grounding in the basics of literacy.

Ray

Hats off to you, Rod, for pointing out the gi-normous elephant in the room that is blach gun crime.

However, I did genuinely worry that, in your righteous indignation, your original blog stepped dangerously near to asserting that criminality (and especially vicious criminality) is something inherent in African or Caribbean culture - or worse, in being a member of the Negroid race!

This is categorically not so. In fact, many Caribbean societies (such as Barbados, Bermudas and the smaller West Indian islands) enjoy very low crime rates. Strongly influenced by Christian values regarding right and wrong, their political leaders also want no truck with modern liberal notions about crime - as witnessed by their determination to retain capital punishment, whatever qualms the House of Lords might express.

However, the pernicious influences of liberalism, sexual promiscuity and loss of religious faith have derailed Caribbean family life every bit as surely as they have our own Anglo-Saxon culture. Hence why an ever-increasing number of Caribbean babies are born out of wedlock to absent and feckless fathers. Like the proverbial white chav, in the absence of strong role models or belief system these hapless youngsters end up drifting into gang culture and into lawlessness because, perversely, it often offers them the nearest thing to the solidarity and assurance of family life that they are likely to find.

Conversely, because of the stronger religious beliefs of their parents, African children tend not to be so exposed (in fact, I often joike that one can usually tell apart Africans children from Caribbean children because the former are the invariavly the ones walking around city shops with fathers holding their hands!). However, sadly even second generation African kids are starting to fall victim to the temptations of gang life as the insidious influence of permissiveness and secularism in Britain get to work on African family life too.

My point is that if black gun crime is an aspect of culture, then it is not only an aspect of black culture, but also of a wider malaise eating away at modern Western societies.

To their credit (and as Trevor Philips acknowledges) many black parents are now prepared to put aside the making of easy accusations of 'institutionalised racism' and instead stand up to this cancer in their midst, calling a spade a spade (in exactly the same way that many African intellectuals are increasingly willing to stand up and charge that African leaders are not venal and corrupt because of the legacy of colonialism, but rather because they are venal and corrupt individuals - period!).

So let's not give succour to those white racists who are always happy to believe the worse about people of other skin colours. There are angels and devils amongst ALL races of men. Our job is to seek out and rally to the former whilst praying for (and, when necessary, banging up behind bars) the latter.

Tom

Rod; for someone who claims to hate racism, your boiling down of African-Caribbean culture to "rap music [and] goat curry" does stick in the throat a bit.

It's redolent of "piccaninnies with watermelon smiles", but with any redeeming irony replaced with malice.

Greg D

*Applause*

D Spencer

Would it be too much to expect a journalist to do some research on the subject or are you just trying to start a phony race debate? Its not difficult, given that the Govt publish statistics identifying the race of victims and suspects. The current tally is 1077 white suspects vs 233 black. Table 3.5 in latest published stats http://www.justice.gov.uk/publications/docs/stats-race-criminal-justice-system-07-08-revised.pdf

gareth

Well I feel I must set the record straight by claiming to be non racist myself - let's be clear about that - and branding you all racists.
End of debate. I win. You all should be ashamed of yourselves and try to be more like me.

Hugh Janus

Rod the time has come to say something and stick by it and not insert self imposed qualifications in order to make what you say either more palatable to those who "might be offended" or less open to the charge of racism or whatever ism one might be accused of.
From now on if you have something to say just say it. Forget the politicos, quangonerds, professionally easily offended Guardian readers, in fact everyone. Just say what you have to say and publish and be damned. Christ Almighty life's too short and you don't really want to lie on your deathbed saying to yourself "God I wish I had said that".
Especially in this day and age when lying is considered a game sport amongst politicians and climate warriors just do it. Say it how you really think it is.

rod liddle

Tom - point taken; it was intended to be sardonic.

JohnBUK

Gareth Damn you - but hang on I think I can trump you....yes - Mornington Crescent !!! That's not on the (black) Northern Line is it?

Tom Pride

Ray
December 6th, 2009 9:22pm

Excellent, calm and reasonable ( and a fine example of how paragraphs facilitate the comprehension).

Jackie

Oh shame on you Mr Liddle,

you chose to have a dig at Diane and Trevor (I admit they are easy targets!) and go on the defensive rather than balance your views or be more informative on your justified anger on crime levels.

Still looks like you are having a pop at black culture & black boys rather than using the example in a "general" way to get your point across about crime.

Oh dear.

daniel maris

Well firstly given the circumstances, as Rod is due a roasting (this could hit the MSM any time soon), just want to say that everything he has written since the original post confirms my view that he is not attempting to peddle a racist viewpoint, but is (a) genuinely concerned that such horrible crimes should happen in our society and (b) is concerned about the way political correctness prevents our society addressing serious problems, which give rise to such crimes.

Taking on board a few of the points being made:

If multi-culturalism is being promoted as a boon to society, then it is perfectly valid in a free society to consider whether or not it is.

The way I took Rod's reference to Goat Curry and Rap Music was as an ironic reference. If someone referred to Coca Cola and Rock and Roll as short hand for the USA would people get equally upset? Of course not -it's just a short hand. If there were lots of Americans or of recent American descent in London going around shooting up each other and mugging people in the street not doubt Rod would have referred ironically to how we should be thankful for Coca Cola and Rock and Roll.

Actually Rod's showing his age - reggae would have been more accurate than rap music, which is mainly a US phenomenon (although Jamaicans claim some input via "toasting").

As Rod points out Dianne Abbot is happy to discuss these issues in terms of race (something he rejects). She sent her own child to a private school precisely because of her perception about the involvement of young black men in underachieving lifestyles.

All healthy societies are built on free speech. We need to hear Rod's voice on this subject, just as we need to hear other voices. Only through free debate can we build a better society.

Of course racists will make use of free debate to try and further their cause but they are easily identified and seen off in a free society that has the concept of citizenship at its core.

I think it is pointless to say "I back you Rod, but am a bit concerned about the way you expressed yourself initially..."
Well pointless if you believe in a free speech society. He expressed his opinion - let people react to it. But don't let people try to smother his opinion.

Looking at this from another point of view, I don't agree with much of what Darcus Howe says, but I am pleased he gets a platform on TV to express himself as a I feel he is a part of our society, probably reflects the views of quite a lot of people, and deserves to be heard. Same goes for Nick Griffin, Melanie Phillips, and Amy Winehouse...

Free speech is better than fear speech. With free speech you have a chance of solving your problems. With fear speech you have no chance.

Verity

Gareth - perfect!

Dixon

"pregethwr
December 6th, 2009 7:57pm

"...Your shtick ...."

Hang on, is that Mr Massies parrot sqwauking?

Dan Browne

Your aim here is obviously to antagonize irritating sanctimonious people. Well done.

However, if you're going to do so don't start talking complete rubbish. The poor performance at school of Afro-Caribbeans is more due to class than race. Recent studies comparing working class Afro-Caribbean boys and working class white boys show that working class Afro-Caribbean boys actually do better at school than working class white boys. There are more working class Afro-Caribbeans as a proportion of the population because the majority of Afro-Caribbeans who have come here were from working class backgrounds...as are their children.

CA

Rod, leave the internet to other people okay? You posted a piece about black culture being responsible for attempted murder. Whinging about Diane Abbott is not going to convince anyone you're not a massive racist.

C Lav

Now is ze time to remind ze world at large that Monsieur Rod Liddle has also been insulting ze French for ages. please exile him to ze other side of the channel; we will happily confine (h)im to French carribean quarters and will only return (h)im once (h)e (h)as been cured from the ridiculous infatuation wiz Millwall as well as anti French and Carribean prejudice; (h)e may become boring enough to join ze Independent. as regards Taki, we give up (pleaze no joke about French surrender Monsieur Liddle)

American1980

Why is the issues surrounding crime committed by black Brits of Caribbean descent used to criticize multiculturalism? Is there a difference in culture between black Brits from a British colony in the Caribbean and the English? Of course not. These crimes are the result of the breakdown of the family like it is with black Americans.

LindaP

It seems that rod will be called 'racist' by some even though he has not been racist in his articles and despite repeated denials that he is so.

Name-calling is the schoolyard tactic of last resort used when some 'critics' do not have a counter-argument to give.

Austin Barry

What a week for rampaging Rod: Islam, Afro-Caribbeans, Tiger Woods. Rod is like a cold shower: initially painful but ultimately invigorating.

EyeSee

Those that integrate do better (and are respected too), it is a simple as that. Racism as a notion is mainly kept alive by 'libertarians' who feel these poor black people and other 'ethnics' need their patronising help, because, well you know, they are not as clever as white people. That is clearly what they believe because it is what their ideology revolves around, constantly reminding us that blacks etc are 'disadvantaged'. But they don't mean here, in Britain, they mean generally. It is the same mindset that infects AGW. The warmists think that Man, ultimately, is the centre of the Universe and you can see this in the fact that they see everything as our fault and that people such as them (and they alone) can put everything right. Multiculturalism is just a logical extension of the stupid socialist proposition that every person is exactly the same. None can run faster, none are more clever than their peers. And as this is clearly rubbish, proving it should be banned. No competitive races at school, and get rid of the best performing schools too, they show up socialism! But class hatred (and hate is a strong word) is OK because it is a socialist hatred. It ignores anthropology and reality but it is right because it's socialist, it is an ideology, it doesn't have to fit the facts. Which is why Diane makes the confused comments she does. How could it be otherwise?

Retiring Copper

I recall a poster (not on view to the public) inside the report writing room of our police station, showing the 40 most wanted for street robberies. 33 of the faces were black males. One black female. 5 asian males and one white male.

If this were to have been made public we'd have been branded 'racist', so nobody said a word.

That was in 2005. I've no reason to believe the situation is any different now.

EC

Issues that have been swept under the carpet need a good airing no matter how inconvenient or unpalletable the facts are.

The hoo-hah created by Rod's recent posts proves that free speech comes at great personal cost and, if it ever existed, it is now all but dead.

Is Rod having an "Enoch Powell" moment? If the tabloids pick up on this little spat then it'll be 50-50 as to who gets the bucket of shit thrown over them. I hope that it's Abbot.

Representatives of the failed and venal political classes deserve everything that is thrown at them.

EC

Issues that have been swept under the carpet need a good airing no matter how inconvenient or unpalatable the facts are.

The hoo-hah created by Rod's recent posts proves that free speech comes at great personal cost and, if it ever existed, it is now all but dead.

Is Rod having an "Enoch Powell" moment? If the tabloids pick up on this little spat then it'll be 50/50 as to who gets the bucket of shit thrown over them. I hope that it's Abbot.

Representatives of the failed and venal political classes deserve everything that is thrown at them.

Ludlow Spinks

Ahhh more lovely lies.

"There is nothing remotely racist" about saying that young black men attempting to murder a racist woman is not anomalous, in an article headlined "the benefits of multi-cultural Britain"?

I know you are just trolling, Rod, but really. Even by your feeble standards this squirming is pathetic.

R Mitchum

Keep it coming Rod. You are the vocal tip of a huge - and mostly seething - majority.

Baron

gareth @11.05:

doesn’t work, won’t work, my friend; you have to climb on top of one of the pseudo-liberal pyramids of power, and say it. It’ll work then.

RezaV

Class or ‘wealth’ does indeed appear to be the key factor in educational achievement.

However, the default position of multiculturalists is to blame poverty on factors in which the poor are blameless.

It’s easy to show up the fly in this ointment by comparing the social mobility of different cultural groups. After one generation, a high proportion of the children of poor Vietnamese immigrants are no longer poor.

Yet the children of Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian Muslim, African Caribbean, Roma and the ‘white’ underclass remain, disproportionally, poor. And remain disproportionally so, generation after generation.

Individuals, communities, societies and nations don’t have defective cultures because they are poor.

They are poor for the very reason that they have defective cultures.

For multiculturalism to exist, there has to be a climate where ‘moral equivalence’ is the accepted wisdom. And moral equivalence can only exist in an environment of non-judgementalism.

And when you have this, you cannot blame the problems and failings of certain groups on their cultural deficiency.

That would be ‘racist’. Or culturally imperialist. Or ‘Eurocentric’. Or rude. Or judgemental.

So the disproportionate failure and problems that are explicit within certain groups are blamed on ‘society’. Or history. Or better still ‘white’ racism.

And however inelegantly Rod addresses these inconvenient truths, he is right to do so.

Fergus Pickering

CA, but perhaps Rod Liddle doesn't MIND being called a racist. It's like being called a capitalist pig, invigorating!
I see the excellent Chris Gayle scored another of those spendid centuries, smashing the ball to all corners, that are so typical of West Indians.

Ludlow Spinks

Oh gosh, "point taken, but it was intended to be sardonic"

i.e. "yes, I used grotesque, reductionist racial stereotyping, but it was just a bit of a laugh so that's fine."

David SI

Gareth,

Loved your comment...Yes, you do win!
Thanks!

Faux racism expose

Keep them coming Rod - all these exposes of the faux-intellectual prattletwerps that make up the Guardian faux-racism free firmanent.

Paul B

Late in the day to this blog, but if truth of blog is measured by the amount of abuse it receives, then obviously Rod as has nailed the subject spot on the head, with this and the his related blog. He did the same with his blog on Celtic FC supporters a couple of weeks ago, which also illicted tons of hate mail. At least with the Celtic fans their hatred was raw and didn`t try to be morally superior which most of those posting abuse on here have done.

daniel maris

Well as predicted it's in the MSM now - appearing in the Standard with Fraser standing up for Liddle's right to be offensive!

It's at times like these you have to watch your back...any time now an old acquaintance from the BBC is going to be quoted one fears...

Ludlow Spinks

Whether or not comments appear here seems to be VERY random.

Anyway, I just want to try again to correct my typo in my first post on this thread, which should of course read "PREGNANT woman".

That is to say, Rod believes it is not anomalous for young black men to attempt to brutally murder pregnant women.

That's fine, it is a free country, and everyone is entitled to their beliefs and to state those beliefs, however deluded and unpleasant those beliefs are. But he and his supporters should stop trying to cry censorship when people call him out on his disgusting rhetoric. And PLEASE spare us "I'm not a racist but..." - you ARE a racist, so please, some honesty wouldn't go amiss. Be proud of your bigotry man!

As for "If the tabloids pick up on this little spat then it'll be 50/50 as to who gets the bucket of shit thrown over them. I hope that it's Abbot."

Well, this just shows the degree of delusion going on here.

The story is that Rod wrote a little racist rant, and Abbot among many others criticised him for it.

Any hypocrisy in her school choice and rhetoric at the time is what the media, in a very technical bit of terminology, would call "OLD NEWS". Rod's racism, on the other hand, is fresh, exciting, really quite funny, and has the potential to run and run given his propensity for tantrums when criticised.

You may not believe me. Let's see what happens eh?

Ludlow Spinks

Hahaha Daniel Maris - yes, rarely has the phrase "be nice to people on your way up because you'll see them again on your way down".

Jeremy

This may be slightly tangential to the thread, but my German housemate has just informed me that her compatriots refer to English people (such as myself)as "island monkeys"....^^

Rather than flying into a fit of PC indignation about it, I found myself rather tickled by the term.

"Don't let's be beastly to the Germans...."

David

On the Andrew Neil/Diane Abbott/Michael Portillo programme at the time that Diane Abbott was talking about her decision to send her son to my alma mater, City of London School, she admitted that her actions as a mother and as a politician were inconsistent. Fine, up to a point - she was more honest than most Labour MPs about this conflict. However, she also said that there would be a new college, academy or something that was, presumably, local and non-fee-paying, and which would be open in time for her son to attend it. Presumably her principles would have allowed her to send her son there instead of to City of London School, but she didn't explain why she still chose CLS. I am very happy for Master Abbott to receive his education from CLS; I just wish Ms Abbott could sing it from the rooftops rather than be ashamed of her choice because of some half-baked ideology that doesn't stand up to serious thought.

Ken

Anyone else here think "Ludlow Spinks" and Sunny Hundal (editor of the left-wing blog Liberal Conspiracy) might just be related?
If so why not come out with full disclosure of your agenda Sunny?
Speccie commenters are adults, they don't need liberal dog whistling at them.
Spit it out man - freedom of speech is not on your list of rights to be defended at all cost. Is that it?

Dixon

"Ludlow Spinks
December 7th, 2009 10:09am
Ahhh more lovely lies.

"There is nothing remotely racist" about saying that young black men attempting to murder a racist woman ..."

Ahhh, more lovely ...unintelligible gobbledygook. I know I make lots of typos but at least my sentences do make sense. What that one is supposed to mean is anybodys guess!

Dixon

But this is interesting, even if Rod is assumed to be "racist", whose company would most people prefer, his, pr the likes of "Ludlow Spinks"?

hiro

Nothing wrong with using "some black kids" as a collective, descriptive term when the intention is to improve society, try and help, and generally be constructive in a soundly moral manner. That was your intention, wasn't it, Rod?

Keith D

Surely the point of Rods article is that highlighting the issue brings it into focus.The black community stands to benefit most of all if intelligent minds are brought to bear on youth crime.Isnt that what we all want? Ms Abbot,as far as you and your Nu Lab chums are concerned,any legitimate concerns we have about this multicultural disaster you foisted on us are racist. Give us a break

mchops

Three cheers for commonsense, and more power to you Rod; no one likes, you, but we don't care.

One of the most worrying features of our so-called multicultural society is the extent to which alcohol abuse, vandalism, obesity, recreational violence, abortion and paedophilia remain predominantly anglo-saxon pastimes, and every time I attempt to discuss the white problem I'm showered with irrational invective from people who claim I'm a racist as a way of avoiding having to deal with the cold hard reality of statistics.

I'm not a racist; most of these acts are white-on-white, so in many ways we're actually helping these people; it's clear that their own communities aren't prepared to address these problems, and they're always strangely silent when yet another atrocity occurs.

Reg511

Well said Rod. Abbott is so hypocritical.

Baron

Ludlow Spinks @ 1.33:

What infuriates, because it adds nothing to any debate, is labelling. And more, it attacks the bearer of the conviction, belief or whatever rather than the substance of it.

Jeremy

'...as Abbott put it, “Britain invented racism.” '

All that one can conclude from a remark like that is that she is ignorant of both history and philosophy.

Peter from Maidstone

It look like the vast majority of commenters on the Standard item are supportive of Rod, and this includes many Black and Asians.

Ludlow Spinks

Ah Ken, again with the "freedom of speech" nonsense. At what point has anybody said that Rod has no right to express his nasty little opinions? If you can point me to where it is suggested that he should be silenced, sued or sacked I will eat my words, otherwise I must conclude you are delusional.

And Dixon, I tried repeatedly to correct my typo but my posts explaining that did not appear until just now, for which apologies.

AC

In the same vein a large number of young white males want to get stupid drunk, kill (when they do it, is it a mental problem?), cause fights and bully others just like Rod Liddle and then aim to be a peado in later life all under the veil of Christianity. You never really cared about young blacks, gun crime and curry goat but you do now don't you? You beer guzzling buffoons. We are all racist. I bet this is just a ploy to get some internet traffic and make a name, you don't really give a damn. Otherwise it would have been refreshing to see your blog about the poor kid who got killed in Liverpool or even Stephen Lawrence.. oh but no... Ha ha you joker... wish I could take you seriously but you are not worth it dumb ass. Please correct my work cos I failed at school but still able to hold down a senior job and pay my bills and tax and not kill anyone.. But I do love my curry goat, rap music and a pint just like you do. It was on my mind so I said it. Live with it white BOY. oops is that Racist coming from a black man. How you fel about these words is how many felt about yours. Next time be more constructive you half educated fool.

paul .

the whole country is a pc shambles, i for do not want to live here anymore, but i am getting older and gray with not much money so am stuck here like so many others in this multicultural hell. i was born in 1946 in london surrounded by bombed out buildings now we have a bombed out society!

Verity

AC - Rod Liddle's had a name in journalism for quite some time.

You write: "Please correct my work cos I failed at school but still able to hold down a senior job and pay my bills and tax and not kill anyone.."

Well, congratulations on paying your bills and taxes and not killing anyone ... but to be candid, anyone with your level of literacy who is in a senior job got it through positive discrimination. Public sector job by any chance?

Ludlow Spinks

Baron: "What infuriates, because it adds nothing to any debate, is labelling. And more, it attacks the bearer of the conviction, belief or whatever rather than the substance of it."

In most circumstance I would agree wholeheartedly. But in this case the "substance" of Rod's argument: that young black men attempting the brutal murder of pregnant women is par for the course and that the presence of different cultures in these islands has given us nothing but goat curry and rap music is so ludicrous as to make it utterly pointless engaging with in any way other than derision and ridicule. In any case, your argument about labelling could equally be applied to his nasty little screed.

Rod is trying to set himself up as a funnyman, as a satirist. Well, we're definitely laughing, so I guess he's got part of the way there.

porkbelly

The real culprit in all this, and the most destructive force in the world today, is white guilt. When well-meaning white liberals turn their attention to a continent, a people or a culture it is doomed.

Frank P

Pass!

Katy

Argh. Don't you get it, Liddle?
It is absolutely disgusting to reduce the societal contribution of Black men down to a list of crimes and a culinary dish which I presume is not to your taste.
And yes, Black males are disproportionally represented in the Criminal Justice System (although that's not what you said, but anyways), and it's not racist to point that out, but there are a multitude of factors which contribute to this, including racist policing and the fact that Black men are more likely to live in deprived areas. It's true that there can be a poverty of aspiration and ambition, which can lead to horrendous crimes being committed, but do you really think that denigrating people like this is going to help? No, it's going to make it worse, you creep.

Tina

Verity - real classy.

Tron

Why does it take Rod "Lefty" Liddle to point out Abbott the hypocrite ? The Conservatives are asked every day about Cameron's schooling. Why don't they just read out a list of Labour hypocrites who went to, or send their children to, Public Schools? It seems so easy.
Labour leave so many open goals -immigration, schools, crime, economy etc. The public talk about this stuff all the time. The Tories talk about diversity, Black/Women Candidates and Polar Bears.

Verity

Tina - While the whole lefty/Gramsci/denizens-of-Common-Purpose group loathe the United States (which most of them have never visited), they are the ones who can't open their mouths or click their keys without employing American catch phrases.

By the way, you got yours wrong. It's supposed to be: "Classy. Real classy." You have the typical tin ear of the left. No offence. I think it may be genetic.

TomTom

Trevor Phillips was sent back to Guyana for his schooling. Apparently they have structured schools with discipline in the Caribbean, or did...and that was what the Phillips parents looked for since they could not afford school fees unlike Trevor and Diane nowadays

bainchaud tom

its obvious Rod Liddle is one of those sad moronic cowards, who thinks he knows about "multicultarism", when in actual fact, the only thing he knows is a load of old codgers and toffs who he plays chess with on a weekend. Get some friends you pathetic white upper crust pompous ass wipe. You are a closet racist, another from the enoch powell school of idiots. grow up you uninteresting moron.

Ajibola

IN THE NEWS: Rod Liddle makes another pathetic attempt to boost the Spectator's dwindling reader base

quietintegrity

In response to D Spencer's point about Rod failing to look up statistics: as black teenagers comprise 15% of London population, the figure he gives of 233 black teenage offenders is a 144% excess over expected. I defend Rod's right to speak his mind and I regret that more people in the journo-political world lack the courage to do so. With the current financial mess, the country can't afford the mayhem on the streets of black-on-black knife and gun-crime. Anyone in any doubt should visit the maternity wards of south London to see the vast numbers of abandoned black teenage girls labouring. Not to mention adding to the bill of the hard-working law-abiding British citizen. Time to defend traditional British culture against the fascist socialist oppression of the past 12 years.

rod liddle

Thank you everyone for posting on this, and long may it continue. The most hilarious posts have come Ludlow and - better still - Katy. I think Ludlow is in denial. Katy is just thick. Either way, all been thoroughly enjoyable.

To Hiro, on another thread - point taken. But it was not intended as such.

warwick

Racism? No such animal.

Life is too short NOT to make sweeping judgements on people you've never or only just met, and there is nothing wrong with anyone disliking someone else's culture (and hence the person)compared with their own life values.

The fact that culture is more often linked to skin colour makes these judgements easier to make - wrong as they occasionally may be.

We are all "culturist" whether we like it or not.

The racism card is always played by those who have lost an arguement. It's a cheap shot played by a idiot with delusions of intellect.

Nuff said.

Dixon

re mchops feeble attempt at arguiment by analogy: the media, politicians, police, social workers and every other imaginable bunch of people are continually whining about your "white on white" criminality. We never seem to stop hearing about the venality of "the white working class" ( always said with a sneer ) and "rednecks"..........which by analogy only validates Rods claim that its inconsistant to be accused of "racism" for daring to identifyi some "black on black" instances!

In other words, mchops, your attempt at arguiment by analogy only proves Rods contention and disproves your own ( presumably being that his comments were "racist" ).Ie, you shoot yourself in the foot!

Dixon

Verity, on AC, well said. If you'll pardon an un-PC pun: Hoist by his own "retard"!

Tron

Rod, I followed the BBC reaction on local radio and TV to your Blog. You were talking about murder and violence while they went for the real issue -Goat Curry.
If the BBC is "hideously White" are the prisons "hideously Black"?

Henley Smith

Rod whats your thoughts on the transformative or the paradigm potential's of these developing enties within the context of your statement?

TGF UKIP

Stick to it Rod. At last a blow for freedom of speech from one of the London media mob - long, long overdue.

Don't let the bastards try to screw an apology out of you, absolutely nowt to apologize for. If we think something, we should be free to say or write it.

And if Fraser Nelson threatens to sack you, simply wave two fingers at him. If he did, the Coffee House would be bare and the Speccie circulation halved - if he's lucky.

walter james

At last Ron someone has written on a subject even Northe London police dare not speak its name.My sons school in NW3=was told to avoid certain routes home and streets in Hampstead as a result of mugging by balck teen gangs-the Regents canal pathway is a dangerous area for middle classes of both sexes and has been for 20 years.The pressure on my 12 year old daughter for 'virgin sex' was disgusting even by 12 year old boys-in Hampstead also.The school now has 2 CSPOs on permanent guard duty due to continuous classroom invasions and last year there was a riot between two knife wealding 'crews'-over 100 involved, not one line ever even got to the Ham +hig-!the chair of governors made sure as it was an OFSTED inspection year.The school has exactly the proportions of results you identify.It was a genuine relief for my daughter when she went into the schools 6th form college as there were no 'unruly elements'who even got the minimum GCSEs let alone the suspended and excluded who went to the school more when excluded than when they werent.I havent mentioned colour but given the context presumably do not need to-anyway well done ,the spectator is the better for the contribution.

Nicholas

Diane Abbott is far from being the sharpest tool in the box as anyone watching This Week will know. She has very strange ideas about the history of her country and a naive faith in the Labour party despite the fact that she spends much of the time slagging off half its members and quite a few of its policies.

I take nothing she says or writes seriously, especially when she starts swivelling those eyes upwards as she speaks and/or the chips on the shoulders manifest into view.

walter james

Has anyone else noticed how little comment there is about the act of attempted murder by 2 black rappers[none of the last 6 words seem to have been raised in the last 30 blogs!Its interesting how the chatterarti love to intellectualise politically correctly when these terms are the basis of the cited article.I despair.

Wilhelm

bainchaud tom 6.30pm squeeeels

''You are a closet racist, another from the enoch powell school of idiots. ''

Enoch Powell could speak 12 languages, he was speaking Greek and Latin when he was 8. How many language can you speak, son ?

Stephanie Tohill

Rod

a) Do you have anything, at all, remotely, supporting your assertions about who carries out the majority of sexual crimes, robberies etc in London?
b) Can you please explain, at length how multi-culturalism is to blame. I understand multi-culturalism to mean not getting worked up that people happily hold on to parts of their cultural heritage, as well as their British heritage or, in the extreme the British state encourages people to hold on to their cultural heritage. But I am not sure which Caribbean cultures encourage men to throw their pregnant partners into rivers. Would you care to list those?

It's also interesting that you post Dianne Abbott's ages old comments. Evidently you have missed recent reports on the poorest performing people in England's schools (young working class white boys.)

Tim Calvert

Hats off to Ray
December 6th, 2009 9:22pm

I now live in the Caribbean and I do not see high homicide rates across the region as an Afro-Caribbean problem.

There are some countries with low rates and then there is Jamaica and to a slightly lesser extent Trinidad.

I do not understand why this is so, but thats how it is.

To explain the problem as Afro-Caribbean makes as much sense as ascribing the existence of the Silician Mafia to European culture.

Stephanie Tohill

I also find it beyond bizarre the way Liddle and his supporters decide criminals of Black Caribbean descent are so because of the influence of foreign cultures. If only they could throw that off and be more British they would be fine.

Which means we should have seen similar problems amongst the Windrush generation, which we don't and all (every last one) the Caribbean islands would have higher crime rates than the UK which they don't.

And when the hell did 'rap' become part of Black-Caribbean culture? Rap is of US origin. If Liddle cannot get that right then I really am not sure his knowledge of multi-culturalism is to be listened to.

Holly

Verity
what is important to remember even if the public sector job was got by 'positive discrimination' the person has to actually be capable of doing the job, be reliable and above all honest.
Nice to see you are consistant on all blogs.NASTY

michael johnson

Its so frustrating when this topic is commented on and the commentator ( as always) allows those with a liberal view off the hook.
By bringing in the point about "Rap music and curry goat" it allowed others to deflect the dialogue away from the salient point here i.e. The DISPOROPORTIONATE anount of the crimes mentioned by Young Black males in a multi-cultural area.

The insulting and ridiculously diversions about White Males committing certain crimes is nonsense, PROPORTIOATELY, as Whites still constitute the vast majority of The UK populace still. It is only to be expected.
The point is, in any area in the UK, where the Blaxk percentage of the population gets to 10% or above they WILL AND DO commit far, far more PROPORTIONATE crimes then their numbers show that they should do.

John in Norwich

So why not post the comment about Diane Abbott eating all the pies? She engages continually in zero sum arguments - if your doing well then it is at the expense of someone else. So if she is overconsuming then it is at the expense of someone else. She claims to be a socialist and therefore by defninition she claims to have higher personal/ethical standars than anyone else. Otherwise she is a Tory. Could you at least have the courtesy to explain your failure to post my earlier comment.

AC

Tucking to curry goat with rice & peas, plantain...listening to Snoop dogg and reading a book.. Multitasking... Are you proud of me Dixon of dock green...

Well done for supporting your wife. Your pardoned but I bet you are uglier than a pigs bottom just like your comment. Next time don't make apologies for your ignorance and "un-PC" comments before you make them. Just be yourself... A COWARD with nothing to say.

Like Peter Jones...I am out. Ciao kids

Antony James

So it is the fault of black boys why multi culturalism doean't work. Nothing to do with white police stopping and searching black boys more than any other race, nothing to do with the sus laws of the 70's and 80's nothing to do with black people getting a fair crack at the top jobs, nothing to do with the NF now the BNP and a like, nothing to do with Liddle and his mates calling Nelson Mandela a terrorist, nothing to do with the same people believing black culture is about goat curry??? In this wonderful world call earth there are more people of colour than you and we have been here longer. I do not remember black boys starting the slave trade, or black boys pillaging Africa, Asia and the Americas, killing merrily as they go. I do not recall that Black boys inviting people to their country then putting up signs No Blacks when those same invitees tried to find somewhere to live, I could go on but you get the picture??!!!!

Jeremy

'...as Abbott put it, “Britain invented racism.” '

In Modern Britain, it's amazing how fat and well-to-do someone can grow by telling lies about their own country.

Michael Smith

Rod,
Could this be the same Diane Abbott, venerable anti-racist, who complained in 1996 about:
the unsuitability of blonde, blue eyed Finnish and Swedish nurses being used by NHS hospitals in her constituency and who in Abbott's words 'may never have met a black person before' Incidentally, one of the nurses turned out to black.
This woman is a Grade A fruitcake!

JohnBUK

Anthony, you tosser. If you'd care to read what Rod said you'll note he asks why black girls (who presumably have all the same hard luck stories, and excuses, for their poor behaviour you've enumerated) don't have the same record. If it's too difficult for you to read go somewhere else like "The Sun" or similar.

ColinC

If Rod “Liddlejohn” (See Viz for profane alternative) is not racist he is being intellectually lazy. I was attacked, beaten up, burgled, robbed and pelted with milk bottles by working class whites and their children in Newcastle when I lived there 20 years ago. I realised I had moved into a poor dysfunctional city suburb and not that geordies were genetically predisposed to evil violence. Fast forward to london 10-20 years later I have been attacked by black youths twice in 13 years. Not pleasant but in the cold light of day you realise that London has a different demographic including a large number of educated professional whites who have migrated to the city for well paid work (including myself) and a poor black underclass who are kept socially immobile by housing and education as well as facile racism of “shock jock” journos like Rod Liddle. Many of my colleagues are black middle class but of course they seem a minority in a middle class dominated by educated whites from all over Britain. Rod please try comparing London’s crime to a British city where the majority of the underclass are white and you will see they are remarkably similar.

Jimmock

'Britain invented racism'

But, like football, we're not much good at it anymore.

daniel maris

Jeremy -

Diane Abbot is an intelligent woman - Cambridge and all that. I don't think she meant it literally, I think she meant it in this way:

1. England led Europe in some of the worst exterminatory anti-semitic violence (York 1100s) in the middle ages. All Jews were expelled from England in that period.

2. London has always excelled in anti-foreigner riots - well up to Notting Hill at least. Read the historical accounts - Londoners were forever wreaking violence on poor foreigners from various parts of Europe.

3. Queen Elizabeth brought in one of the first legal measures based on skin colour (seeking the removal of African servants from England).

4. The English were enthusiastic slavers for a century or more from 1650-1800.

5. England - or at least its upper classes - grew rich on cruel and murderous slave labour. There aren't many wealthy families in this country whose wealth can't be traced back to a sugar plantation in the West Indies.

6. The British went around the globe grabbing land and bossing natives.

It seems a reasonable polemical point - especially if you're black yourself. No different from a Frenchman remarking on the enthusiasm of Germans for war, as long as they're winning.

Richard Bale

Thank God for Rod!

Verity

Stephanie Toerag Tohill commenting on Rod Liddle: "I really am not sure his knowledge of multi-culturalism is to be listened to."

Neither am I. Because there's no such thing.

Holly, who clearly has some experience in the positive discrimination arena writes: "Verity what is important to remember even if the public sector job was got by 'positive discrimination' the person has to actually be capable of doing the job, be reliable and above all honest."

Uh-huh.

Tim Calvert makes a good point. I've only been in Jamaica once, and I hated it. I found it sinister. Barbados, on the other hand, is an absolutely lovely country. The people are pleasant and courteous and there's a familial air of trust (as we used to have in Britain). I would gladly live there. I wouldn't go back to Jamaica on a bet. Tim Calvert makes a good point: "Afro-Caribbean" is not a good blanket description.

He writes: "To explain the problem as Afro-Caribbean makes as much sense as ascribing the existence of the Silician Mafia to European culture."

Strong point.

Holly addresses me: "Nice to see you are consistant on all blogs.NASTY"

There should have been a full stop after 'nasty'.

Lungfish

Sorry for being so thick but what is 'MSM' and why do people keep baffling me with letters when actual words make things clearer?

Well said Rod. I'm not usually a fan of yours, but fair play to you for not being afraid to put your head up and say what you think, regardless of the stick you will get. A brave move. More power to you.

Dan Green

Anothony James

"Nothing to do with white police stopping and searching black boys more than any other race, nothing to do with the sus laws of the 70's and 80's"

I presume you also object to police profiling by age and sex. Presumably it would be wrong to stop and search young men more than old ladies.

"Nothing to do with black people getting a fair crack at the top jobs"

Capitalists don't make any money by discriminating without good cause. I suppose that there must be massive anti-gentile discrimination in this county. we are 99.5% of the population and yet have a much lower proportion of the top jobs. One might think that Jews are on average smarter than the rest of us, but obviously that would be racist and therefore could not possibly be true.

"nothing to do with the NF now the BNP and a like,"

I suppose the anti-Chinese feeling in Malaysia and other parts of south east asia, as well as the anti-chinese politics that existed for many decades on the American west coast must there mean that the chinese diaspora is poor and prone to criminality, they can't possibly have thrived in such circumstances.

"othing to do with Liddle and his mates calling Nelson Mandela a terrorist,"

Mandela freely admitted that he was involved in a terrorist action aginst the then South African government. One might argue over whether he was justified in doing so but nobody denies that he did so. By the way the large majority of people who died in political violence in South Africa under white monority rule died in the last decade and 90% of those were killed in black on black violence. Meanwhile other africans were braving the lions of Kruger National Park to sneek into South Africa and get jobs created by the oppressive whites.

"nothing to do with the same people believing black culture is about goat curry???"

Nothing wrong with curried goat

"In this wonderful world call earth there are more people of colour than you and we have been here longer."

Since sub-saharn africa has such a head start it must have been responsible for a great many advances in civilisation.

"I do not remember black boys starting the slave trade,"

Really. I wonder who sold africans to international slave traders. The original international market for african slaves (apart from th internal african trade) was of course the moslem arabs, who started the trade over a thousand years ago. The arab slave trade took far more slaves overall than the atlantic trade. The europeans got the idea from the arabs and it was europeans who suppressed the Arab trade.

"or black boys pillaging Africa, Asia and the Americas, killing merrily as they go."

Well that probably true of Asia, In Africa who do does the fighting in the numerous wars that continent has suffered from. Who is it who makes South Africa a world beater for violent crime. Must white people.
In the Americas of course the countries with the highest violent crime rates are places like Brazil, Columbia, Venezuala and Mexico. I'm guessing these must have the lowest non-white populations. It still doesn't explain though how in the US weathly and highly diverse states like Maryland have high crime rates while (relatively) poor and (relatively) unenriched states like Maine and West Virginia have low crime rates. A puzzle.

"I do not recall that Black boys inviting people to their country then putting up signs No Blacks when those same invitees tried to find somewhere to live,"

I'm sure the Zimbabweans burned to death in violence in South Africa a year ago were glad they didn't have to put up with any offensive signs.

"I could go on but you get the picture??!!!!"

I think I get the picture. Do you think the picture represents reality?

Dixon

"AC
December 7th, 2009 10:42pm
Tucking to curry goat with rice & peas, plantain...listening to Snoop dogg and reading a book.. Multitasking... Are you proud of me Dixon of dock green...

Well done for supporting your wife. Your pardoned but I bet you are uglier than a pigs bottom just like your comment. Next time don't make apologies for your ignorance and "un-PC" comments before you make them. Just be yourself... A COWARD with nothing to say. "

Thanks for proving my point :-()

Dixon

Antony James:
"I do not remember black boys starting the slave trade, or black boys pillaging Africa, Asia and the Americas, killing merrily as they go. "

Maybe you dont remember it, but if you knew any history you would know that non-Europeans including Africans were doing those things long before Europeans got in on the act.

I guess you dont remember it, but North Africans from Tunisia, Morroco and Algiers were trading ( white ) Europeans as slaves long before the European Imperial slave trade began. Between the 15th and 17th Centuries slave traders from those so-called "Barbary" states frequently raided European coasts to seize victims. On one occasion, the entire population of the Irish village of Baltimore was abducted into slavery.

In fact, the seizure of European and American sea-farers to be taken into slavery was so bad by the end of the 19th Century that Thomas Jeffersons fitrst act on taking office was to expand the US Marine Corps and despatch it with the US Navy to blockade and bombard Algiers until they
agreed to desist.

I havent even mentioned the Ottoman Empire, which conducted slavery of white non-Muslims on an industrial scale. Over five centuries, Christian children seized to be raised as slaves of the Muslim Ottoman state ultimately numbered in the millions. The Ottoman Turks still had slave markets up until 1904!

Anyone interested in this should read "Servitude in Modern Times" by M.L.Bush of Manchester Metropolitan University, Polity Press.

Conclusion: the old cod about the slave trade being an invention of European Imperialists is the biggest, blindest, crassest lie in modern culture. Put about by liars and swallowed only by the ignorant.

TRISHA

Perhaps, Diane Abbott could explain to me about rapes of old women by black males and this is a growing crime. Why the mugging of elderly women and men by black males. Come on Diane, please explain.

David SI

Antony James,
You often repeat the phrase "I have not heard ...." whereas I think you mean "I have not read...."

Wilhelm

Im shocked, shocked to the core by the vile, viscious, hate filled, erroneous witterings and spurious piffle by the liberals on this blog. Where is the love, tolerance and respect for other peoples views that they are famed for, or
was that all phoney bullsh*t.

The Facist Left are soo brain dead and brain washed that they are welded to the worship of the multicultural cult, they are blinkered to little
things like er, um, facts, stats, evidence. They cant see the wood for the trees, its Jones town all over again.

Have you noticed not once have they shown any sympathy for the poor girl who was thrown into the canal by the 2 black rappers. What a shameful lot these lefties are.

Wilhelm

A few months ago there was a Dispatches programme on Channel 4 about gang rape in London. It was chilling.

''We looked at offences involving perpetrators aged 25 and under, and managed to track down 29 cases in which a total of 92 young people
were convicted of involvement in gang rape. Of those convicted, 66 of them were black or
mixed race, 13 were white and the remainder were from other countries including
Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya. Of the cases we found, two thirds of gang rapes occurred in
London. We do not know if these were the only cases - they are simply the ones we could find.

On the face of it, these figures may appear
small, but they are nevertheless statistically significant when you consider that nearly three
quarters of those convicted were black. Why the incidence should be higher amongst young
black men I do not know, but the stats speak for themselves, and on the ground youth
workers and community leaders confirmed our conclusions. Sheldon Thomas, a Brixton youth
worker, acknowledges that there are a disproportionate number of young black boys
involved in gang rape, and it's something that's of real concern to him, 'because we've got a
situation in our community that needs to be addressed. And I don't believe that we are
addressing it'.''

AC

Equally no mention of the white Dr who recently attempted to poison his white pregnant lover. Or was he African Caribbean as well? With guns a poor education and some curry goat in the fridge?

AC

A senior doctor who tried to poison his pregnant lover's drinks to make her lose her baby, was jailed for six years on Monday Nov 16th.

EyeSee

I am amazed looking through the comments on here at how all of the anti comments fall into line with all the other left-liberal responses when their beliefs are threatened; they just say you are wrong. Not one makes any salient points to oppose, merely using goat curry as a cipher for how stupid the whole article was. The exception perhaps was Danial Maris who at least decided to pick negative points from England's history and support Abbott in that way. Points as usual from long ago to be viewed with modern sensibilities and prejudices. England abolished slavery despite the cost in money, no other country did that. England then used it's navy to oppose slavery elsewhere (to level the playing field no doubt, but slaves thus freed wouldn't question the motive perhaps). England has always been a refuge so, whilst never so pure something about our nature (OMG! our culture!) appealed throughout history. British people have always seen merit in others, we have a history of success by 'going native' but also by maintaining our standards. It's a cultural thing. Barbary pirates were still enslaving white folks in North Africa as late as the 1700's (and stealing them from England too!). So don't come to me bleating about the left-liberal version of multiculturalism, it is a defeatest cry, the simpering of the weak. 'Oh you gob in the street? Well I decry footballers doing it of course and it is disgusting, anti-social and spreads disease, but if it is part of your culture go ahead. What is my culture? Oh, to be stupid mostly'. 'Ideology first' is moronic.

AC

One was a Dr One was a Rapper,
One was White One was black
One had pills One had drugs
One had chips One had curry goat
One had Wham cd One had 50 cent
One was educated One dropped out
One got 6 years one got 32 years.

One will be back at work in 7years treating us. One will rap and rot in prison.

One is not impressed. Killers are killers, lovers are lovers nothing to do with black or white. Would be nice to have a fair and equal justice system though. Dixon? Verity? Rod? I am sure you agree.

I will never eat curry goat again as it's dangerous food, it's pie and mash for me.

Lee Jakeman

What have you done, Rod?

You didn't do something stupid - like tell the TRUTH, did you?

Lee Jakeman

Lungfish - MSM is an abbreviation for Main Stream Media.

I agree with you - the use of abbreviations is irritating.

I live in New Zealand and certain abbreviations / acronyms that are used in England are not used here, so Kiwis are occasionally baffled by them.

Barry

The truth always hurts most, doesn't it?

Ladeda

I myself am too poor to be a socialist but Ms Abbott is loaded and therefore entitled to send her kid to a private 15K a year school. How can she be accused of hypocrisy? Almost all of the staff on the Guardian were privately educated and have you ever seen a non-white selling Socialist Worker? And while I am one the subject, the entire crowd at the Nelson Mandela birthday bash was as pink as Barbara Cartland undies. People need to get away from this silly notion that the Left are on the side of the working classes, the movement has changed; the Left are now our moral guardians not class struggle activists. Only they are able to explain to us the complex issues of the day by using words like “social justice” and “Committed to equality” which most of don’t understand coz we don’t go to know privet skool.

Stephanie Tohill

"Stephanie Toerag Tohill commenting on Rod Liddle: "I really am not sure his knowledge of multi-culturalism is to be listened to."

Neither am I. Because there's no such thing."

Erm my middle name isn't 'toerag' I assume you have reading issues.

If there is no such thing as 'multi-culturalism' take it up with Mr Liddle. He is the one who insists it is to blame for young men throwing a pregnant woman into a river.

Michael Johnson

I have still NEVER received an answer for the following questions:

1/ If "poverty" is the main factor behind the fact that Black Boys in any UK Multi-Cultural Area do commit a ludicrously disproportionate number of street crimes then why do the most impoverished Community i.e. The East London Bangla-Deshi Community commit very little street crime?

2/ If "poverty" is the reason how does that explain the totally disproportionate number of Rape cases involving Black youths? There is a You Tube video where an African has FINALLY elicited the official London figures from The Crown Prosecution Service, 50 Met.Police areas etc and it prooves, conclusively, these findings to the African Guys sorrow.

3/ If "Black" Boys are so discriminated against by the "Racist" education system how does it explain the SUCCESS of African ( NOT "Afro-Caribbean") students in our educational establishments.
Also, how does it explain the "comparitive" success of Black girls and Asians ( who are disliked more, in society than their Black counterparts).
Most people prefer Black people as they assimilate into our Western Culture and Society as a whole.
This has not, in general, held the Asians back!

This does NOT mean that Whites do not commit similar crimes or that "all" or even the majority of Black people commit crime, FAR FROM IT!
On an individual basis most Black Guys are fine but its UNDENIABLE that in any UK area ( Brum/Bristol/Notts/London etc) that PROPORTIONATELY they commit far, far more street crime.

Indeed, the Met.Police no longer break down the ethnicity of mobile phone thefts/assaults to preserve "Community Relations".
The last published figures showed the ( approximate) 10% Black London populace committed 157,000 out of 175,000 annual mobile phone assaults.
The victims? 155,000 White Females?

If these stats are random then you could count from now until eternity to calculate those stats being "random"...

Nicholas

daniel maris' soundbites on British history are highly selective and negative. He clearly has a problem with it. Britain spent more suppressing slavery than it ever earned from it. Pax Britannica meant just that and one needs to examine the "societies" colonised and "oppressed" and the state of the high seas in a little more detail before suggesting what came with the Union flag was worse than what went before. I'm not suggesting everything was rosy but certainly a more balanced view is warranted than maris' parroting of leftist self-hating revisionist history. They have had their day of distorting our self view and it is time for more objectivity and optimism.

Further, comparisons with the way other colonial powers operated (in particular France and the Netherlands, but also Spain) warrant examination. In the current academic mindset it is very hard for Imperial Britain to get a fair hearing and the agenda of leftist vested interests (or ethnic resentful chips) drowns the voice of reason. Even Imperial positives are likely to be ridiculed as the cliché of white middle-class imperialists so far is the alliance of leftism and ethnic victimhood advanced.

Also there is a dichotomy at work. Imperial oppression is difficult to reconcile with many centuries of Britain as refuge, whatever the anomalous blips may suggest. During the American Revolution black slave runaways flocked to the British because they got better and fairer treatment than from "Americans". Blacks served in Nelson's navy and the 18th Century British Army as free men. Many more ethnic Indians (now Indians and Pakistanis) contributed to driving the Japanese from Burma than ever served in the INA under the Japanese.

The maris' view of British history is divisive, offensive and grotesquely exaggerated - like most leftist dogma.

Rod, if you are going to make dismissive remarks about black people by referring to rap and Jamaican food, it is not surprising that any legitimate arguments you make get drowned out by the outrage. You know what you are doing, Rod: sneering references to the contribution, or lack of, any cultural contributions of a group X or Y put you down in my book to being those of a bigot and a fool.

Johnathan Pearce

Your initial comment was crass, Rod, and its sneering references to rap etc hardly helped. Engage brain before hitting the keyboard in the future.

Ladeda

I may be wrong but I have read that Ms Abbott has one of the highest expenses claims for taxi use, which is a bit odd given that she is a London MP. The last time I was in London they had this amazing subterranean transport system that consisted of cylindrical serpentine pods full of people with space packs on their backs, they also spoke in a funny non-earth language. Ms Abbott probably thinks the underground is a subversive eco warrior outfit.

zack

Greetings Rod,

Stick to your guns.

The days of the conspiracy of silence on this issue & the interntaionalist left wing shouting folks down & stifling debate are rapidly drawing to a close.

Changes are coming to the UK - & I do not think the liberal left or the BBC or the Diane hypocrits Abbotts of this land are going to like those changes at all.

Well done Rod

Mike F - who are you to demand that anyone tones down their opinions & beliefs - let alone lecture a respected journalist on the nuances of their language? This is not East Germany circa 1972, y'know.

Stephanie Tohill

Michael Johnson @11:20am

If socio-economic background has nothing to do with it then explain the fact the homicide rate in Glasgow is twice as high as that of London? (As has been already posted)?
Noone claims that it is merely 'poverty'. I hope not. But is a myriad of factors, which aren't simply, 'cultural' or 'socio-economic' or 'familial' but rather a combination of all.

Jeremy

@daniel maris:

The history of the world and the history of what is now called "racism" do not begin in York in the twelfth century.

If Abbot knew no better, then her assertion that "Britain invented racism" was erronious. If she did know better, then it was - and remains - a lie.

Baron

Michael Johnson @ 11.20:

You are not serious in thinking that anyone answers your questions, are you? What with the pseudo-liberal mindset that rules over us? The white man’s guilt has been imbedded in the psyche of the nation to such an extend it often borders on lunacy.

If poverty were the cause of crime then the housing stock of this country before the war would have consisted of little more but prisons, and the poverty stricken regions of today’s sub-Saharan Africa would be uninhabitable because of crime.

I stick to my interpretation of Edmund Burke’s societal cohesiveness of ‘installing chains on our behaviour from within and from without’. The former will require longer to accomplish if we were to address it. The latter can yield noticeable results quicker. Effective punishment would cut crime not only in the pockets of ethnic predominance, but across the board.

zonked

I think Abbott's reasons for not wanting to send her son to a local school were sound - she didn't want him mixing with a black working class peer group where as a fellow black man he might be drawn towards criminal behaviour.Any parent would do the same. Certainly most black families would.
Anyway, Rod, anyone with a brain knows your not a rascist. My only unease about your post was that it would give succor to those who are.

Mark Pack

And the evidence for your previous claim Rod that, "The overwhelming majority of street crime, knife crime, gun crime, robbery and crimes of sexual violence in London is carried out by young men from the African-Caribbean community" is...?

It's come in for a lot of criticism from people who have pointed to evidence that your claim is untrue.

But I've not seen you either provide evidence or say that you got it wrong.

What's the evidence? Or did you get it wrong?

London Calling

Be careful Rod, if you dig that hole any deeper you just might end up somewhere very unpleasant…

What this post has achieved is to stereotype all young black males as violent muggers and killers, when in fact the truth is the majority of young black youth are just as scared to walk the streets as the rest of us. Rod responded to an attack of a pregnant white female by two black youths on a London canal, of which naturally repulsed and angered many and rightfully so. These crimes are predominantly carried out by black youths, however evidence suggests we have a serious problem with gang youth violence in general which has turned many areas of Britain into ghettos.

We have to debate this issue, however it is not helpful when we target one section of the community as Rod Liddle has done and in a way that the context of his writing was perceived as racist. Reference to rap and goat curry was extremely stereotyping and offensive. Rod has a right to speak freely, he just didn’t make his case.

What I would like to know is what are we going to do to address the overall problem of defected youth, a serious challenge faces us and I would welcome that debate thereafter everyone has calmed down…

Verity

Dan Green, I was enlightened by, and largely agree with, your post, but there was an error I don't want to go unchecked.

You speak of the "anti-Chinese" feeling in Malaysia and other parts of SE Asia.

That is not the case. I lived in Malaysia and never had the slightest sense of any anti-Chinese attitudes. Everyone rubs along just fine.

You may have been thinking of Indonesia, where there is (or was, when I was in SE Asia) tremendous resentment of Chinese wealth. (That the industrious Chinese work very long hours, and the whole family pitches in, in order accumulate wealth doesn't - or didn't - occur to them. They just saw that the Chinese had nice cars. When they were rioting, they always went for Chinese food stalls and businesses, although the Chinese had absolutely no role in the government which had steered the country into dire straits.) The Chinese in Malaysia are respected and there are quite a few of them in the government.

In the rest of SE Asia, I don't see how there could be a problem with people disliking the Chinese, given that the Thai, Vietnamese and Kumpucheans are actually ethnic Chinese.

Personally, I have great respect and fondness for the Chinese. They are very strong and loyal people (in the main; some bad apples and all that).

John Levett

I'm still none the wiser as to what the oft-lauded merits of multiculturism are.

Paul Rook

A fantastic article Rod. Well done.

GJTory

100% with you Mr Liddle

Sarah

What has Rod Liddle done wrong?

Nothing.

He has merely satirised the way we are all now expected to talk about multi-culturalism.

We are all supposed to walk around looking for something positive to say - never negative. And if you go through the pages of rags such as The Guardian two of the things the bien pensant loons love to natter about are music and food.

Hence the reference to goat music and rap curry - or whatever it was - it all blurs into one mess with Rusbridger's mistake-ridden rag.

It's that white Guardian reader/writer tone of voice Liddle is satirising.

Read it again. This is the condescending tone they use in The Gurnydrone and The Not So Independent: "Of course, in return, we have rap music, goat curry and a far more vibrant and diverse understanding of cultures which were once alien to us. For which, many thanks."

It sounds like a Leader column out of The Graun, for crying out loud.

How many times a day does the BBC and Channel 4 have some goon parroting these sentiments: "a far more vibrant and diverse understanding of cultures which were once alien to us"?

At every twist and turn we are all expected to speak like that and never mention the double standards of a society that bashes white people at every opportunity while constantly making excuses or turning a blind eye to the behaviour of some ethnic minorities.

Dixon

"Holly
December 7th, 2009 10:11pm
Verity
what is important to remember even if the public sector job was got by 'positive discrimination' the person has to actually be capable of doing the job, be reliable and above all honest.
Nice to see you are consistant on all blogs.NASTY"

BUT Verity was referring specifically to "AC", and the evidence of AC's actual comments...his inability to form whole sentences, his threatening mien, recourse to abusiveness, terrible grammar, apparenmt lack of reasoning abilities and his own admission that "...I dont done well at school but still I got a top job..." all indicate that he is most unlikely to have the qualities that would enable him to fulfill the post that "positive discrimination" has provided him.

Look at the evidence. Read his comments.

kaz

Let us NOT forget the heinous crime and who it was committed by. Can the do-gooding left wing meddling pratts please do something about the THE CRIME instead of kicking up a fuss and getting all offended when someone points out the truth about proportions of our diverse culture. Rod is basing his argument on facts - the fact being that a disproportionate amount of these type of crimes are being carried out by Afro-Carribean men and juveniles.

Dixon

I have to say, whilst I endorse Rods willingness to make the initial comments, I don't think the issues he raises are part of the debate on "Multi-culturalism".At least not in the sense of imported cultures.

I think it is as much about the generation of sub-cultures by the indiginous society and the meta-medium of Anglo-American popular culture. Largely driven by the music and movie industries in particular. The entire self-image of generations of young black people appears to have been hi-jacked by ( largely white ) producers and drivers of fashion, starting with rap and hip-hop. That industry of image-synthesis ( which, as I say, is largely white ) has taken presupppsitions of violent, misogenystic, anti-semitic and generally obnoxious attitudes and raised them into a towering edifice of ego-mania, crowned by daft "music world" creations who become millionaires on the proceeds yet consider it still a matter of honour to commit occasional rapes, robberies and murders.

As I say, again, this venal exploitation is largely the product of white record and mivie producers. It is industrial and it is a part of "our" culture, not something imported from abroad. It seems to express white thrill-engendering notions of black males as excitingly dangerous "other".

Sadly, however, all too long now this industry has succeeded in convincing young black people that these attributes are legitimately aspects of "their" culture, rather than something imposed upon them.

All that said, however, it doesnt explain the viciousness of the "Yardies", for whom nailing someone to the floor and leaving a hot-iron to burn its way through their chest is all in a days "work".

Verity

London Calling - There's a name for your affliction: Stockholm Syndrome.

michael Jones

Don't let the PC idiots silence you Rod.

MikeF

Verity - I have no reason to doubt what you say about the way Chinese people are regarded in Malaysia. But, remember, when Malaysia gained its independence in the mid-60s the first thing they did was kick out the Singaporeans of whom around 70 per cent are Chinese. They did not want a Chinese powerhouse in the south of the country that would effectively be its economic capital.

Antony James

Following my earlier blog, I seem to have been given a history lesson (David Si, Dixon and Dan Green), which I did not need, especially as the history these guys refer to is tainted and one sided. Yes, I have read guys, but after I read something and put it down I think about it and decide if it is true or not, and/or if there is another side to it and go out and seek that point of view. The not so intelligent amongst us read and probably read a lot, then because of they are unintelligent do not think, but try to blow smoke screens so they sound intelligent.

David Si I read and I question and I think. Try it, if you can.

Dan Green, I do not know what the Jewish plight has got to do with my criticism of Liddle man. and Dixon really mate you should try thinking about what it is you are trying to say, because, historically you are all over the place. You come up with the typical usual that the deniers usually come up, "oh but slavery existed before us whites came to Arica", etc and all over the world 'ethnics' don't like each other so what we do and have done can't be that bad. Well it is mate, the Atlantic ocean is littererd with the bodies of Africans thrown overboard by their captures. Blacks helped build our cities and those in America, etc yet they have nothing and we just take and take and then deny them their place in history.

You guys need to read more and think more.

AC

London Calling is the voice of reason and should have Rod's job and would be better at it for sure. Your leadership is commendable. I mean that sincerely. What we need is good mentors, strong father figures to support Mothers and Sisters as well as inclusive activities that let us have fun and teach at the same time. We also need to take positive action and give encouragement. Not just for one race or creed but for all, so that the young ones start to now each other and really become friends. Anyone in a gang or with a gun would rather be on the straight and narrow deep down. Just to have someone they can approach talk to and be shown a better way to achieve their goals is what they require. Their are very many good honest caring PEOPLE who do make a difference in their own quiet way. Among others commenting I bet London Calling is one of them and Rod, Dixon and Verity are most definitely not. Just my opinion. Bottom line this is a people issue not a black or white one.

Verity

Mike F - Well, you are right in a sense. But that was then, and in the aftermath of the occupation by the Japs, so perhaps the Malays felt it was natural to be suspicious of people with slanty eyes.

But the smarter ones - and there was no one with a more acute intelligence than Dr Mahathir Mohammad, Malaysia's first PM - watched Singapore's progress with close attention.

Mahathir and Lee Kwan Yew worked together more closely than people at the time imagined, and Mahathir took on many of Lee's ideas on national development. Lee is a pragmatist and recognised that there were three races with claims on citizenship - the Malays, whose territory Singapore had been before Singapore got its independence, the Chinese - specifically the Straits Chinese who had been settled for a hundred years or more, and the Indians who had been brought in as indentured labourers over a century earlier.

So he and Mahathir decided that everyone was going to get along, or else.

As they were two new countries - well Singapore was a new country and Malaysia was in its infancy as a developed country - they could pretty much shape them in a pragmatic way. It wasn't organic. It was forced.

To be frank, I think a lot of I dare say that some Malaysians don't like the Chinese because they are too clever ... but that doesn't mean they don't all socialise and go to one another's parties and work comfortably together.

I genuinely never encountered a sense of dislike of the Chinese. And a lot of them are in government.

Malaysia has been one of the Asian tigers and is rich, no one resents Chinese money - unlike the Indonesians.

But this situation was forced on Singapore and Malaysia by Lee and Mahathir - two pragmatists. But there is no such thing anywhere in the world as an organic multiculture.

By and large, human beings prefer their own.

That is why Jack Straw and he ragbag of communist sympathisers in today's government, viciously and with malice aforethought, tried to force an abnormal situation on the British. Because they used the pretended benefits of multiculti as a rod to beat the backs of the British, who they hate.

This came out in the Neather report, which never got a mention on these pages, despite Fraser twice promising to address the issue.

David

The problem with contemporary racism in this country is that very few people with racist attitudes will admit the fact. Indeed many of them don't even appear to believe they ARE racist. Instead they insist they only, "speak the truth" or, "say the unsayable" or trot out any one of a number of similarly mendacious smokescreens.

I suppose we've made progress of a sort, insofar as racism is generally perceived to be unacceptable these days. However this hasn't necessarily alleviated the problem - instead all but the most vehement ideological racists simply invent their own definition of racism and refuse to accept they are racist based upon their own bogus criteria. They excuse their racist statements as "the truth" and castigate every black person who objects to racist treatment as "playing the race card".

It often seems that many white people seem to believe that racism was vanquished in this country the day Trevor MacDonald presented the News At Ten and that ever since then Black people have been making it all up.

I would like to consider myself an educated, law-abiding black person, who loves this country (racists apart). I have grown up in an overwhelmingly white part of the country and I can tell you that racism most certainly has not gone away. You only need to look at the confidence Rod's comments have given certain people to see that.

I found the tone, if not the words,of Rod's article deeply hurtful and depressing. Many of the comments that have crept out from under their rhetorical stones in the wake of it have made me genuinely nervous and fearful of a worsening of an already unpleasant,racist & scapegoating atmosphere that seems to be simmering and which even white friends of mine have commented on. If nothing else he certainly hasn't helped. If he really does have concerns that aren't motivated by racist attitudes, there are so many more helpful ways he could have expressed himself.

I'm an Exeter City fan and only this Saturday I had to contend with a moron of a Brighton fan taunting me with Rod's brand of rubbish after the game. I didn't know about the article then - now I'm left wondering if that incident had anything to do with it.

As I said on the other post - thanks Rod.

Barry

Ray at 9:22pm: "In fact, many Caribbean societies (such as Barbados, Bermudas and the smaller West Indian islands) enjoy very low crime rates."

Bermuda is NOT in the Caribbean and in spite of having one of the highest per capita GDP rates in the world, has a very high incarceration rate. Drug related gang violence is also increasing.

Glen

Noting wrong with pointing out statistics on crime and the pepetrators. However,to a) say these thugs represent a group of people who share the same colour skin and to b) dismiss the contribution of a whole group of people who over the last 50 years have worked incredibly hard to help rebuild this country and add to its GDP is small minded and lazy. ou may claim not to be racist and I will take that as stated but 'conclusions' like yours only serve to inflame tensions on all 'sides'. Rather that use Diane Abbot and her ilk as a smokesreen it would be honourable to aplogise to the hardworking who also rue the behaviuor of a minority of criminals. Dreadful.

Nicholas

Antony James. Absolute codwallop. And patronising codswallop too. Your credibility went to zero when you used the term "deniers".

There is no absolute truth in history - just perspectives. You are as guilty as those you attack.

AC Milan Sexcole

The other AC appears to be a bit of a nutter, but the blogosphere is full of them apparently.

London Calling a mentor? Mentoring the breakdown of our society - sorry, but the Government is doing a grand job with this project already.

cassis

Antony James

"Following my earlier blog"

Well, let's get this bit straight.

Liddle has the blog.

Yours was a comment.

Understand?

john steadman

Rod - as expected, the deluge. Don't give an inch, not an inch.Courageous. Good luck.

Baron

David @ 4.51:

and your definition of racism is what?

mine runs along the lines that if a person of a certain race treats anyone of another race differently than he would anyone of his own race, he’s a racist. You reckon I’m wrong? The moron who insulted you may have insulted me because I’m bald (and support Arsenal). I didn’t choose to be bald, it just happened.

also, if you think you’re the only one who finds many things hurtful, depressing, objectionable, revolting and what not, I can assure, my friend, you’re wrong, so do I. That’s what free societies are about.

like you I find Rod’s missing the point, too. I see it as essentially a law and order problem. It is certainly true, whether you or I like it matters not, that certain pockets of our society are more prone to commit crime, but overall it’s crime and how we deal with it. In my view badly, but I and my loyal servant Snowman’ve bothered everyone enough with my preferred solution.

Dixon

"Antony James
December 8th, 2009 2:54pm
Following my earlier blog, I seem to have been given a history lesson (David Si, Dixon and Dan Green), which I did not need, especially as the history these guys refer to is tainted and one sided. Yes, I have read guys, but after I read something and put it down I think about it and decide if it is true or not,..."

Oh come off it, have you never heard of The Pharoah's? Or are you teling us they werent African? What, were they "white" as well?

Own up, we caught you with your pants down as you were trying to give us a "mooney" and the ignorance you displayed wasnt edifying.

Antony James is obviously another time-waster whose comments I shall not read in future. Like that Ryan on an earlier thread. Could even be the same person. I urge others to ignore him or he'll waste your time like Ryan did. BTW, where Ryan gone?

Dixon

Antony James:
"You guys need to read more and think more."

If thats not projection what is?

jon ryan

"...where Ryan gone?..."

Still here, Dixon, still being immensely entertained by you.

I still get a laugh at your comment from a while back when you stated as fact that "Any British born citizen is eligible to enroll in the US armed forces. Upon leaving, they automatically become US citizens."

I had to nip over to the States the other day - they loved that! You now have fans over there as well! Soon you'll be as famous as Homer Simpson.

Only thicker.

Tom Pride

Verity

You will find it was Abdul Rahman ("Tunku"), followed by Abdul Razak, Hussein Onn, and then Mahathir Mohamad.

It has not all been sweetness and light but your comparisons to Indonesia hold up. It would do us no harm to take a look at how they manage a multi-racial and multi-cultural society. Harmony does require self-restraint and politeness.

Interestingly, I think that your observations on how you found people behaved toward you and treated you are spot on - with your minority ethnicity you were neutral from the sensitivities and felt the full friendliness and generosity of spirit from all Malaysians (the term which is used to include all citizens of that country irrespective of race) of which they are very capable. Great place for a holiday particularly at this time of year.

A Pedant

I think you'll find that a curry made from Goat is universally known as "Curried Goat" and not "Goat Curry"

Carl

Poor Verity doesn't even realise that Britain was involved in the slave trade, such is her firm and lucid grasp of history. Now, far be it for me to highlight such ignorance, but others may wish to do so.

Dan Green

Verity

If I have unfairly maligned the Malays then thanks you for correcting me. It is always good to be sure of your facts. I'm pretty confident of all the other facts in my post but ready to stand corrected if necessary. I was aware of the anti-chinese violence in Indonesia. I had heard that there was also some anti-Chinese feeling in Malayasia but I am glad if this is unrepresentative. I think that that that kind of envy based politics, whether it is Indonesian anti-Chinese, nazi anti-semitism, anti-white "anti-racism" or just plain communism is and has been for many years the greatest meanace to civilisation.

Going back to the original blog one interesting study that seems to shed some light on the matter was done by Robert Putman back in 2001. He researched in various towns and cities throughout the United States and found that there was a direct correlation between the level of ethnic diversity in a place and social breakdown. The more diverse a town was the less people trusted one another, not only between ethnicities but within thier own ethnicity. There was less engagement in collective social action, less likelihood to vote, less happiness and greater dissatisfaction with life. This supports the supposition that he "anti-racists" find so objectionable, that multiculteralism itself causes crime and violence.

Being a good liberal Putnam the sat on his findings for 6 years. He tried every way he could think of to find alternative explanations to his findings but he could not. Eventually, to his (partial) credit he published the results in 2007. These findings also have the virtue of tallying with common sense. The reality is that cultural differences amount to more than differences in food and music. They have a big effect on such things as attitudes to work, to violence and to what constitutes ligitimate authority. When these differ for very large sections of the population mistrust conflict and social breakdown are the result. Depending on the cultural mix things might be held together by force, but anything else just mitigates the problem at best and exacerbates it at worse. Of course the left would realise this if they were really concerned for peoples interests but of course their politics is just an excuse to vent resentment and hatred.

Verity

Tom Pride - Re Tunku Abdul Rahman, Abdul Razak, Hussein Onn - you are right, of course, but I didn't want the reader to switch off at the stream of unfamiliar names, so I cut to the chase: Dr Datuk Seri Dr Mahathir Mohamad. It was under him that Malaysia emerged from being a little backwater of the British Commonwealth and became one of the five Asian tigers.

What's interesting about this, though, is by and large, the races don't inter-marry. I had one Chinese girlfriend who was married to a Malay, but that was most unusual. Humans, by and large prefer their own kind.

Antony James

Okay I had feelings of grandeur thinking I blog for the Spectator!

Dixon, I wasn't giving you a history lesson obviously you are so well read, but totally unthinking, your banality holds no bounds. Weren't the Egyptians some film by Mel Brooks?

I don't know Dixon are (were?) the Egyptians White, is it in Africa? Did the British steal from the French who stole from the Egyptians the Rosetta Stone?

Like I said before geez' read it then think about it then project it, get it???!!!

logdon

CA
December 7th, 2009 1:59am
Rod, leave the internet to other people okay?”

Shouldn't that be m'kay, as in the idiotically PC teacher in South Park you so unintentionally emulate?

The wooly, passive aggression in which the passive OK, seeks to soften the bloody ridiculous dictatorial hectoring of banning Rod from a form of expression, wonderfully free from the authoritarian remit of anti libertarian trolls like CA.

It’s the libtards favourite response. They don’t like something and rather than real debate or, gasp, heaven forfend, bowing to the majority, they seek to close it down.

Its going on all the time.

Immigration. Race. Climate.

Nothing approaching democracy or reality, just the dogma ridden clowns who seem to be running our circus, lying and censoring for all their worth like dervishes with red noses and huge shoes.

logdon

Baron
December 8th, 2009 6:24pm
David @ 4.51:

and your definition of racism is what?"

I'll tell you what my definition of racism is.

It's when a female I know who had cause to visit an area of Huddersfield, being told by second generation Pakistani's , 'get out of our area, white bitch'.

Asked why she didn't report it to the police elicited such disdain towards plod's anticipated reaction of doing absolutely nothing made me realise what an uphill battle we face.

Racism works two ways. Only one is an unforgivably hienous crime in the eyes of the law.

jon ryan

Where Dixon gone? Joined the US army perhaps?

Carl

Verity said: " had one Chinese girlfriend who was married to a Malay, but that was most unusual. Humans, by and large prefer their own kind."

Can we take it then that you are coupled with an ignorant, racist Pig?

Roger Bower

Don't let the bastards get you down Rod!

In2minds

I'm getting worried about Ludlow Spinks, its been ages............

Federico Lister

Working-class Black boys now perform better (just) at GCSEs than working-class White boys. Time for us to stamp down on White culture?

Also, 7% of the population of England & Wales is Roman Catholic - 20% of the prison population is Catholic.

Do we need to look at cultural factors that make Catholics more criminal?

Baroness Pipino

Carl @ 10.24:

You, darling, married to a brainless dummy then, are you?

Verity

Dan Green writes at length, but this sprang off the page into my sight line: "places like Brazil, Columbia, Venezuala and Mexico ...".

What? Mexico's in N America - and around 4,000 miles from Brazil - and is a member, with Canada and the US, of the North American Free Trade Association. I can get Marmite shipped in from the US or Canada and don't have to pay any duty!

(For purposes of easy comparison, London is around 1,600 miles from Moscow.)

Dixon writes: "Oh come off it, have you never heard of The Pharoah's?"

Never heard of the Pharoah's what, darling?

David SI

Carl,
For some reason, you seem to have it in for Verity who you referred to as being an "Ignorant fascist pig" .... a particularly adroit little debating ploy of yours if I may say so! I don’t know what Verity has done to warrant all your spittle but in one of your ..er.. postings you yelped about Verity’s ignorance of Britain’s involvement in the slave trade.
For the benefit of other readers, I thought your point needed some context. Slavery began in Africa long before Britain became involved in it. In fact, slavery existed in Africa well before the Atlantic slave trade and even before the Islamic slave trade. Britain was also one of the first countries to both abolish slavery and to abolish the practice of slavery (two different concepts). Its abolition of the practice of slavery encompassed the entire British Empire, involving 1/3 of the world's population.
These facts can be obtained by readers in 60 seconds flat on the internet….lots of different sources…. Wikipedia isn’t a bad first port of call.

Dixon

"jon ryan
December 8th, 2009 10:22pm
Where Dixon gone? Joined the US army perhaps?"

OK , Ive ignored all his uploads since I said I would and no doubt shall any more, but that little missive got past the filter.

I have to say I dont get it. I'm not American.

Wilhelm

So let me get this straight, its OK for Trevor Philips and Diane Abbot to talk about the problems of black youth crime in the cities in our once glorious nation cause they are er, um black but not Rod Liddle cause he's white.

Isnt that reverse ' waycism ' ?
Yeah, you just cant be that liberal logic, can you ?

Roy

This item deserves a recommendation since it is an opinion of how Rod Liddle sees the situation. He must be congratulated.

Daniel Maris

Federico Lister -

Yes, we should look at the factors. There are quite a lot of unspoken things that need saying. A lot of the Catholics in prison are going to have come from a hard drinking Irish immigrant background.

I believe it does help to understand that and to understand the Irish experience (colonial repression and a harsh start as immigrants in Scotland, England and South Wales).

AC

Aha I have figured it out. Dixon is in fact Rod.

Katy

Oh, joy of joys, Liddle thinks I'm thick.
I can die happy now.

Rory the Deplorable

A Pedant@7.47pm - the calm voice of reason at last.

Dan Green

Verity: "but this sprang off the page into my sight line: "places like Brazil, Columbia, Venezuala and Mexico ..."."

The point I was making was that those places in the Americas with the highest crime rates tend to be highly multi-ethnic countries with non-white majorities. This seems to especially apply to countries very large black and mulatto populations like the South American countries I mentioned but also applies to countries like Mexico with very high mestizo populations. Counties with high white populations like Uraguay and Canada have relatively low crime rates.

Looking at the murder stats for countries I notice one major exception to this is Bolivia which has a non-white majority and a very low murder rate. Now my observation from the media is that the ethnic groups in that country are a lot less mixed than they are in many other latin american countries. I don't know enough about Bolivia to be confident that thats a fair assesment so if someone here knows more about Bolivia they can correct me if necessary. If it is true however it would give further support to the Robert Putnam paper I mentioned above which demonstrates that multiculturalism as such causes social breakdown.

Seacole

It strikes me that many of the libtards (hat-tip logdon) complain about racism at the drop of a hat, yet remain silent or blind to the institutionalised racism of the Government which either ignores the white working class or displays a malevolent, bordering on the psychopathic, attitude to the white middle and upper classes.

It should be apparent to all that Labour have time only for people of any colour but white.

The Black Man

Very true.

chazzoli

Diane Abbott herself showed racism by suggesting that "blue eyed" Finnish nurses shouldn't be allowed to work in hospitals in her area because they wouldn't understand black patients.

Tom Pride

Federico Lister
December 8th, 2009 11:47pm
“Working-class Black boys now perform better (just) at GCSEs than working-class White boys. Time for us to stamp down on White culture?”

As I and others have commented here and elsewhere: “The multiculturalists blindly state that there will be a positive impact from the fusion of the best from different cultures. Mark Steyn points out that more often there is a negative impact from the fusion of the worst elements in both cultures.”

There has been a negative attitude to education in certain socio-economic white groups in this country. That attitude may well have fused with aspects of immigrant Caribbean culture (or perhaps the penetration of US gangster culture through various media) which has produced the negative impact on some (but not all) black youth in London.

We cannot stamp down against a culture which does not value education, if you mean by that involving police action, – it is not a criminal offence – but we can and we should discuss this issues in a calm and polite manner and try to find some solutions.

Wily Seatrout Cole

A Pedant
It's Curry Goat, not curried goat.
Yours, A Nother Pedant

hiro

"It should be apparent to all that Labour have time only for people of any colour but white."

Congratulations! That is probably the thickest thing I have read on the internet or anywhere else for years. *Applauding*

Dixon

As for Mexico being in North America, it only takes a glance at a map to see that. Yet the supposedly brilliant Milton H. Erickson who is usually touted as a genius and certainly expressed a very high opinion of his own intellect in everything he wrote, about himself, actually reported giving a lecture there at which"...I was introduced as a physician from North America". What a pillock.

Carl

Dixon says:

"All that said, however, it doesnt explain the viciousness of the "Yardies", for whom nailing someone to the floor and leaving a hot-iron to burn its way through their chest is all in a days "work"."

I blame Monty Python.

Dixon

"AC
December 9th, 2009 9:34am
Aha I have figured it out. Dixon is in fact Rod."

Thats called paranoid psychosis.

Its actually more prevalent among black males than others.

Seacole

hiro - I suggest you get out more, you obviously lead a sheltered life.

Jim G

Straight talking never hurts! If it was that Britain invented racism as Diane Abbott was to once say,it becomes ever clearer as to why when others such as the residents of Alexandra some years bach were to set upon Zimbabweans for taking their jobs, or the Fijians in recent history that were about to swamp their country and Govern it?

Dixon

"Federico Lister
December 8th, 2009 11:47
Do we need to look at cultural factors that make Catholics more criminal?"

Like most of those anti-Liddle commentors here who actually raise an argument..as oppopsed to just aggressive bluster ( AC ) and ignorant invective...you make the mistake of assuming that those of us who ( broadly ) sympathiose with Liddle would not simply AGREE with your proposition.

YES, we should indeed consider how Catholicism affects predisposition to "criminality" ( a concept I regard as suspect anyhow, as all it really means is acting outside one society's mores ). Other religions also. Particularly the "religion of peace", which is massively correlated with suicidal acts of random mass murder.

In fact, since the end of WW2, almost 100% of such acts have been committed by members of that religion.

Being analytical of one sub-culture does not mean we wont be equally so of any other, including "our" own ( although I am neither Catholic nor a member of any other religion ).

As for the "white working class", my "tribe", they are subjected to continual critical, actually very hostile, scrutiny as a suposed source of "criminality". The things which are continually said about the "white working class" would never be tolerated or even allowed to be published of any other group in society.

I havent even mentioned the abuse heaped on the poor Welsh.

All we want is the freedom to discuss anything, openly, without being typecast as genocidal, mass-murdering baby-killers for daring to do so. Increasingly, this is what Rods blog seems to be about. The vanishingly shrinking window of that which we are allowed to discuss without being labelled as monstrous freaks from another dimension.

The thing is, as the window of free speech continues to shrink, the very same folks who shriek the abuse, will sooner rather than later find their own freedom of speech itself denied. To paraphrase pastor Niemoller, "First they gagged those who criticised multi-culturalism, then they gagged climate sceptics, then they gagged one thing after another until by the time they came to gag us there was noone able to speak out in our defence".

AC

"It could be an anomaly, of course. But it isnâ™t. The overwhelming majority of crimes of sexual violence in UK is carried out by frustrated white British men most of which look like the originator of the first post and can't approach women or men appropriately. Of course, in return, we have alcoholics, fish n chips, shepherds pie, obesity and no culture. For which, many thanks."

At the top I would paste a link of the doctor who tried to kill his pregnant lover with poison under the caption Filthy Humans.

Peter from Maidstone

AC, I am not sure where you are getting your figures from. The official published government figures show that about half of all sexual crimes in London are committed by Black and Asian criminals, while about half are committed by the very much larger white population. Both absolutely and proportionally this seems very significant and must surely be addressed.

There are only 5000+ sexual offences for which people are arrested in London so we need not say that all white people or all black people are conducting themselves in such a way, but the fact - the fact - that the rate of offence in the Black and Asian community is so very much higher must surely be the subject of concern and appropriate action.

This does have nothing to do with race, but everything to do with communities and culture and disfunction at some level.

Terry Walpole

Rod rocks!!

Daniel Maris

Dan Green's comments show a remarkably poor grasp of history.

I think his argument could only be a tautology i.e. if a society doesn't breakdown that shows it is socially cohesive.

The Roman Empire was multi-cultural and had a high level of order for several hundred years despite much more primitive means of social control.

However, we have seen people from very similar cultural backgrounds (same sort of religion, same sort of food, same clothing, same language) descending into anarchy. For example China descended into warlordism for many decades. Same goes for Japan. Same for many African countries e.g. Zimbabwe. Same for Russia in its civil war (and now - it has many places of appalling violence).

The US Black and Latin American experience has been one of appalling oppression through slavery and serfdom.

In the UK we see appalling violence and lawlessness in multicultural London but we also see it in homogenous parts such as Liverpool, Cardiff, Glasgow, the North East.

Lastly I think the highest ever murder rate was achieved by monocultural Germany - about 2 million per annum at the height of the war.

Verity

Daniel Maris writes: In the UK we see appalling violence and lawlessness in multicultural London but we also see it in homogenous parts such as Liverpool, Cardiff, Glasgow, the North East."

Yes. That is because the native population are angered that their country has been removed, and is being removed, from under their feet without their having been given a chance to fight and die for it.

They will never get that chance again. Ever. They know it has been slid out from under their feet forever.

The evil sliding over Britain and seeping into every institution we have built and depended on is foul.

Will we ever get our beloved country back?

Dan Green

Daniel Maris: My arguemnt was not based on history but on sociology. Study such as the Putnam 2007 work demonstrates that, all other things being equal, multiculturalism causes social breakdown. If you are aware of any sociological study that shows the opposite I would like to hear about it. The crime figures I refered to are contemporary.

I am well aware of the history of appalling oppression suffered by non-whites in the Americas. Appalling oppression is fairly universal in human history. Appalling oppression of all kinds has certainly been caracteristic of Chinese history and yet they have a highly ordered society. South Korea and Poland can also claim histories of oppression and yet have managed to build relativly peaceful societies.

I have never said that multiculturalism is the only cause of social breakdown. It is true that China suffered a long period of civil wars (I can't comment on Japanese history as I do not know enough about it). However the long term trend in Chinese history is for a politicaly unified ordered society. Civil war obviously causes social breakdown. The difference with countries like Brazil and South Africa is that they suffer a very high degree of violent social disorder in the absence of any civil war.

With reguards to the Roman Empire during the period of its growth and hight the Romans were on the whole culturally and ethnicly unified, although their subject peoples were not. They gradually became more multicultural and extended citizenship to all its subject peoples in AD 212 at the start of its period of stagnation and decline so I'm not sure you've given a very good example to make your case.

With reguards to Africa ethnic and cultural divisions are absolutely central to violence there, certainly in the case of Zimbabwe. In most cases the people involved in this violence may have very similar food, clothing, religion and language to those they are fighting against but that is not the point. The point is ethnic identity. The fact that this ethnic identity is in Africa most commonly associated with narrow tribal or clan groups whereas in China it is a common Chinese identity is itself a cultural difference beween sub-saharan Africa and China.

The ethnic divisions within the Russian Empire of course were a factor in the Russian civil war and as for ther violence and criminality in Russia today much organised crime there is associated with people who do not identify as ethnic russians - Caucasus peoples, Jews and others. As for the Holocaust I think I read somewhere that the ethnic divisions of Europe may have had something to do with it.

Of course there will always be terrible criminality and violence in any society , whether in Cardiff or anywhere else and of course there are many other causes but that does not mean that multiculturalism is obsolved of its share of the blame.

Verity

Daniel Marris winds up a long-winded, preachy, moral equivalency post with: "The US Black and Latin American experience has been one of appalling oppression through slavery and serfdom."

What?

The Mexicans, who lost Texas and part of California to the Americans, have been serfs in the US? What on earth are you talking about?

For one thing, when you say "Latin Americans", a landmass that stretches 10,000 miles down to Tierra del Fuego, I am guessing you mean Mexicans? You're not suggesting that the Chileans or Ecuadorians are American serfs?

It doesn't make sense on any level.

Remind me again how the Mexicans have ever been slaves or serfs to outsiders?

jon ryan

Verity you are wonderful!

You say that the violence in ethnically homogenous parts of the UK is
“because the native population are angered that their country has been removed, and is being removed, from under their feet without their having been given a chance to fight and die for it.”

Fantastic! What lucid reasoning! What logic! So not only are the naughty immigrants eating all the white babies in London, they are responsible for the violence hundreds of miles away simply because of their presence!

Oh, and on Mexican slavery (how did we get to this???) – you ask:
“Remind me again how the Mexicans have ever been slaves or serfs to outsiders?”
Well, in 1521 when Cortes gave his followers vast tracts of land called encomiendas, all indigenous people living within the boundaries of these land grants were bound to the land as slaves.

Shep Lenchek writes that: “Over 75 percent of modern Mexico's population, have at least one Indian or Mulatto ancestor. The vast majority of them were slaves. Ironically, it is the Indians, never enslaved, who retreated into largely inaccessible mountain and jungle areas, that today make up the most destitute and deprived population in modern Mexico.” (http://www.mexconnect.com/articles/666-slavery-in-mexico )

So, Verity darling, the real Mexicans were enslaved by the nasty immigrants.

Oo-er! That’s exactly what’s happening here!

(It’s OK Verity. No need to come up with a cogent refutation of this. Just do your usual `Will we ever get our beloved country back?` cant, a bit of dismissal of me as ignorant, possibly even with an oh-so-amusing misspelling of my name, some taking out of context, attacking a single bit of what I’ve said and ignoring the main point –you know the form, love.

Oh, and remind us: you do still live in your beloved country, don’t you?)

Bucks Roger

Ample evidence from these comments to support a theory which first came to me when a teenager: that lefties, while professing their love for mankind, have no human warmth at all, being incapable of getting on with a person in the same room. (Simultaneously, it became apparent that only an idle villain stoops to calling another person a racist. These ne'er-do-wells, like bindweed, have proliferated).

The pregnant 15 year old thrown into the canal by a grinning black youth - yes, this detail was from her testimony in court - has elicited no sympathy from these statistics-manipulating social engineers. Instead, they would seek to exonerate the guilty by referring to highly tailored, incomplete and often factually incorrect historical references.

Plus ca change.

KevinSA

I live in Cape Town, South Africa (murder capital of the world). Rod, you are spot on, +- 65 people are murdered here every day, and at least 60 plus are black on black. The others are black on white. Is it skin colour? No, I dont think so. It is a value system (or lack thereof) and a culture of violence that is the problem. For a nation to find it acceptable in their culture to do what they did last Saturday to the bull, is self explanatory as to why they are violent. For those that dont know, an annual tradition for the Zulus is to take a bull, 40 males will attack it with their bare fists, it's eyes will be gouged out, it, penis tied in a knot, it,s testicles torn of and then sand stuffed in it's mouth to smother it. It takes about 40 minutes for the animal to die. It is called Ukweshwama - Google it. Now if that is OK for them to do it to an animal, how do they react to another human. It has nothing to do with pigmentation and all to do with values and culture. That's my 10 cents worth.

Sameer

Who is Diane Abbott? And why are we even talking about what looks like a rather sad specimen of humankind, black or otherwise.

We know who you are Rod. Go for it. Speccie would be a dull read without your column (well ever since Mark Steyn left). Shame to think you once worked for the BBC. That shame will be with you till you die.

But otherwise, you have nothing to feel except pretty damn proud. And we are too.

AC

Sounds like Spain to me KevinSA..

except they eat the balls rather than waste such Gourmet on the bull.

Have the numbers of Black on white crime come close to what used to happen during the crime of Apartheid?

London is not the same, black people belong here and all we get is Bull***t

Peter from Maidstone

jon ryan, not to excuse any unpleasant behaviour anywhere else by anyone else, but when England was invaded by the Normans the whole population was enslaved, and was bound to the land on which the thuggish Norman butchers were given by William the Bastard. He spent the first few years of his reign butchering the English and raping his way through the English women. It has happened here to. (But to be honest I am not sure what the fact of slavery in Mexico has to do with the disproportionate levels of violence perpetrated by Black an Asians in London? It seems rather a red herring.

Verity

Jon Ryan, I don't like your sleazy, somewhat creepy attitude. You really do hate women, don't you, except those who are subservient? What is it about us that you find so alarming?

I hadn't read about the indigenes being bound to land owned by Cortez and Co before. It probably happened all over Latin America.

But so what? When did I sign on for being an apologist for Spain?

Kindly hing: Addressing a woman one doesn't know as "darling" is the mark of a very inadequate man trying to get his own back, or a gay.

If you're gay, you're forgiven.

jon ryan

Peter from Maidstone,

I have no idea what the lovely Verity was on about either (nothing unusual there).

I was being my usual helpful self in trying to ease her ignorance. Of slavery in Mexican history as this was the matter she raised on this occasion.

Possibly the point that is emerging is that humans can be very nasty, that no country can claim clean hands, but heaping the sins of a minority on a whole population is crass, racist, pig-ignorant, unevolved, moronic, cretinous, Griffinesque, Nazi, and lots more but my thesaurus has just exploded.

Can we agree on this if nothing else?

jon ryan

Dismissing me as ignorant – tick!
Taking out of context – tick!
Attacking one part of what I said –tick!
Ignoring the main point –tick!

Well, not bad, young Verity. You failed to do the amusing misspelling, but displaying another aspect of your bigotry by employing `gay` as an insult gets you an extra point in the inaugural game of Verity Bingo.

I don’t know quite what ‘Kindly hing’ means, but I took my lead from you saying “Never heard of the Pharoah's what, darling?” in an earlier post. (‘Pharaoh’s’ perhaps?)

xxx

KevinSA

@ AC - "Sounds like Spain to me", LOL. Ask Verity for a Geography lesson, she is brilliant at that (and she rocks), or maybe it was the bull fighting you meant. One major difference, One Bull - One Matador. Fair fight (except for the sword) compared to 40 "brave warriors" - One Bull. Not fair.
One the black on white crime: it has soared since the end of apartheid. Over 3000 farmers murdered since 94. It is a hate thing, they are tortured, burnt with hot irons, raped, disemboweled etc.
Plus our new government is disarming the whites. We all have to reapply for our firearm licences and of course they are being declined. We are sitting ducks.
Last week and 85 year old ex-school teacher had her throat slit in her home in Tokai, my suburb. What was taken? Nothing. My ex next door neighbour, aged 96, also throat slit, for a DVD machine. She lived in that house since WW2.
All I can say to the lefty liberals out there, the difference between a tourist and a racist in South Africa is about 17 hours. Come and live in a "multicultural" society and see what it is like. You will see people that rape 8 month old babies to get rid of AIDS, rape their own grandmother aged 101 (no kidding), kill you for a cigarette etc. The sad thing is that they are coming to a town near you, bringing their values with them.

AC

Yes she rocks, but not in time and only back and forth like a very old pendulum.

KevinSA the Bull is always dying and painfully as well. whether it is 40 people or 1 person killing it. Not fair.

Things are very bad there, bad enough in London as well but the Bulls are killed by farmers after they have enjoyed a wonderful life.

The crimes are awful... your ancestors are also to blame.. That does not help you now though. What is the prognosis?

Stephanie Tohill

Dan Green:

"Looking at the murder stats for countries I notice one major exception to this is Bolivia which has a non-white majority and a very low murder rate. Now my observation from the media is that the ethnic groups in that country are a lot less mixed than they are in many other latin american countries."

Nope Bolivia is rather mixed:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/bl.html

Also where did you obtain your stats on countries that have low rates of crime?

And how have you ascertained that Canada is 'mainly' white. It is as mixed as the US with an high proportion of immigrants:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ca.html

You facts sound rather dubious to me.

Ludlow Spinks

Hey folks, I'm alright, thanks for your concern.

I've been having too much fun giving Rod an absolute spanking over on his original racist bilge - haven't really got much interest in this diversionary tactics thread, and anyway you seem to be doing well enough on your own steering it into absolute gibberish without me to stir it up any more...

Carry on.

In2minds

Ludlow Spinks @ 6.33pm - “giving Rod an absolute spanking”, good God!

daniel maris

Ah thanks Verity - that's why they're all hooked on heroin and beating the sh*t out of each other in East Kilbride - patriotic love of country!

Glad you were able to elucidate!

Dan Green

Stephanie:"Nope Bolivia is rather mixed:

https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/bl.html"

The figures given there just show the percentages in the overall population. What I was speculating, based on my impression from the media, was that the ethnic groups in Bolivia are much more segregated than they are in other Latin Countries. I could be wrong about that, but it might help explain the low crime rates. As KevinSA has already pointed out crime rates shot up in South Africa when Apartheid broke down in the late eighties and early nineties. Of course the difference could be down to other factors. That was just my speculation.

"Also where did you obtain your stats on countries that have low rates of crime?"

That was from the Wikipedia "List of countries by intentional homicide rate" Of course the accuracy of crime figures in different countries will vary but homicide figures will obviously tend to much more accurate than general crime figures.

"And how have you ascertained that Canada is 'mainly' white. It is as mixed as the US with an high proportion of immigrants:
https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ca.html"

The figures given there are a bit vague as to the percentage of the population that is white but even if we assume that the whole of the "mixed background" group are non white that still leaves a clear 2/3rds white majority of the population which is white, which is a great deal more than Brazil or Colombia. Also if the ethnic mix really is the same as the United States (and I'm sure in many if not all places it is) then the Putnam analysis should apply perfectly to Canada.

"You facts sound rather dubious to me."

I can't imagine what might sound dubious about stats that show that Venezuala and South Africa have higher murder rates than Canada or South Korea, or that show that Canada is more white than Brazil or Mexico.

Joe Erber

Yes, Diane Abbott is a hypocrite, and she got her attack wrong, but you are totally bypassing the fact that you heavily insinuated that black immigration has only given us 'gangsta rap and goat curry' - which is surely incredibly bigoted.

May I say the main crux of your article was correct, as anyone with a grip on reality would observe that a culture of underachievement in black youths is a big problem - but your conclusion was incredibly crude by essentially damning all black culture in this country left right and centre, and inferring that there were NO benefits whatsoever to black immigration!

Some people have serious work to do in battling this social cancer, whilst all you can do is sneer from your armchair.

KevinSA

@AC - Lovely to have a decent conversation - albeit in cyberspace - without emotion thrown in. The bull dying at the hands of the farmer is different, it is humane and painless. Not torture.
Regarding my ancestors, my grandparents are from Ireland, they had no part to play in apartheid. I suppose I had a small role, I was in the South African Police during the 80's, but we were fighting what we saw as a legitimate war. All I wanted to do was serve and protect the people of SA. Ok, it also involved invoking unjust pass laws, group areas act etc, but that was our job. What I saw in my 9 years as a cop here, your average New York cop wouldnt see in 2 lifetimes.
The way forward, I have Irish citizenship, my to sons have 1 and 2 years left at school respectively. As soon as they are finished, we are out of here. I would rather watch this country burn from afar. In closing, tell your mates coming here for the world cup to do a bit of homework first. Forewarned is forearmed. Kind regards.

Karl Baxter

What if it is about race? Well, we wouldn't be allowed to discuss that under the present regime.

MikeF

For the second time, since it does seem rather relevant:

http://www.cypnow.co.uk/news/ByDiscipline/Youth-Justice/973381/London-youth-violence-mostly-involves-black-males/

MikeF

For the second time, since it does seem rather relevant:

http://www.cypnow.co.uk/news/ByDiscipline/Youth-Justice/973381/London-youth-violence-mostly-involves-black-males/

logdon

I've heard Diane Abbott talking of black youth as having zero ability of deferred acquisition.

In other words, they want something and rather than the route of work, earnings, purchase, most of us adopt, they rob.

The role models are, indeed rappers who flash the bling and the boyz want a part of that action.

Obviously getting caught is a factor most ignore whilst getting shot or knifed plays a larger role. To avoid the latter they carry the same weapons as the opposition and thus the spiral begins.

So, if arrest is so low on their radar we must ask an honest, why?

The law is an age old deterrent to crime. Once that law falters or is skewed by pc and multiculturalism they assume an immunity as if they are above it.

More police. More effective and an almost draconian approach to policing. Jail time which is harsh enough to make culprits think twice. Sentencing which reflects the gravity of the crime.

And finally compulsary programmes following release with work as a prority.

Failing that, if they are born overseas, deportation with no appeal.

Alison

Michael Johnson posted:
"The insulting and ridiculously diversions about White Males committing certain crimes is nonsense, PROPORTIOATELY, as Whites still constitute the vast majority of The UK populace still. It is only to be expected."

Actually no it's not, Michael. White people make up 90% of the UK population, but WHITE MALES only make up less than half of it,according to the ONS. Using the poportionality theory, they should only be committing 50% of the crime in this country.

However they make up approx 76% of the prison population, and I believe (will get some stats) as much as 90% of child sex offenders in the UK.

See, anyone can play the 'disproportionality game', but I suspect if someone wrote a column suggesting that 'white culture' or genetics were to blame for the fact that white men sexually abuse children out of all proportion to their numbers in the population, people wouldn't be too happy about it.

As for this case, it's shocking and depraved in my opinion, but it seems a very poor choice to illustrate Mr Liddles point.

We all know and hopefully accept that there is a problem with disproportionate numbers of black youths committing street crime, particularly in London.

Where I'd grouse is Liddle's attempt to imply that murdering pregnant women is somehow typical of black culture, or a symptom of multiculturalism gone wrong.
For a start such murders are (mercifully) rare, and in any event the last two cases I've heard of have involved white men. white males, Simon Morris and Alec Goode who attempted to murder and actually killed their pregnant partners respectively.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/wiltshire/4835408.stm

Regretfully Liddle's initial blog wasn't really structured in a way that was designed to stimululate anything other than controversy.

Wilhelm

American scientist James Watson discoverer of DNA in the 1960s and winner of the Nobel Prize winner has said that the Chinese and Japanese have the highest IQs, Caucasions in the middle and Africans are at the bottom.

This explains everthing you need to know, why Japan has bullet trains and Africa is er, um, dont even have the horse and cart. Its a shame for them, really it is.

Y. Kang

I am so glad that Rod Liddle has spoken out on this issue which is based on the fact. Nowadays, people are just afraid of saying about the issues which have racial elements.

Well done and Good for you Mr. Liddle. I would say keep on punching up those who are so hypocrite like Diane Abbot and other do-gooders who constantly patronise ethnic minorities in the name of racism.

Thank you

Y. Kang

phil

I know I am rather late to this issue and I cannot read more than 600 posts on both threads but I can tell my own small story .,Some years ago I wrote as an amateur ,because I had the opportunity to fulfil my ambition to write ,after earning my living in a far more mundane manner ,an article about a black boxer who had just become a British champion ,a man from a wonderful family honest and law abiding ,but whilst doing my research I realised that his young and delightful children were growing up in a neighbourhood rife with crime ,yes I am afraid mostly black on black ,and I began to worry what chance had they of avoiding being caught up in this vicious cycle -Just as a for instance, one child had his bike stolen by another kid and when the father (my boxer ) went to try to reason with the thief (most knew who it was ) he was threatened with being shot by that kid -the kid himself I gather was later shot himself by yet another kid .The boxers children have all become responsible citizens and have jobs but from my observations over the years since, it is a miracle that they have remained relatively untouched by all around them ,but with no small part played by the unstinting work of the parents ,and with no help .

Well ,I took my article which had now become a plea for help for this black community to be given assistance in education ,youth work etc , combined with an interesting sports story to the city newspaper ,I was sent from department to department like a bouncing ball ,nobody wanted to take responsibility for publishing it .I checked with many people that I had confidence in to tell me if I had written rubbish as I did not want to embarrass myself or the neighbourhood prior to going to the newspaper .They all told me it needed to be said -

The outcome nothing ,and this community descended into one of the murder capitals of the UK .My point is that there must be a reason for what Rod has rightly pointed out politically correct or not ,and we must ask ourselves have we not contributed to the disaster that has overtaken the early immigrants by neglecting their offspring,by in fact looking the other way .It is easy to say these black kids are causing so much trouble and I know some are but they must be motivated to do so by something , and I believe it is the utter hopelessness that many of them feel .

I am trying to this day to get help for what we call our feral youth, of many hues by asking for contributions to resurrect the old youth clubs that have become so run down as to be virtually useless .We need government help and also the help of figureheads like our sporting heroes to front these clubs ,to give some pride and incentive back to these kids. I have approached various sports stars that I know ,they will help ,but they alone cannot fix this .It needs more than me to achieve this ,so I hope I may awaken others to use their influence to give our youth that chance .

Jon P

The point so many of you miss, with your "how dare you call me a racist, I'm just speaking my mind etc etc" is that an abhorrent crime was committed. The abhorrent crime was committed by two black men. Abhorrent crimes are committed all the time by men and women of all races (look no further than the current trial of an alleged white female paedophile) It really has nothing to do with multiculturalism, does it? Or goat curry. As someone said it was an emotive response to a foul crime. But how your anger was stirred when you saw those 2 evil black faces staring out at you eh, Rod?

RMT

Rod... Nobody would disagree with your condemnation of those who tried to kill that young woman but you got called out for offensively reducing the African Caribbean contribution to Britain to Rap music and curried goat and playing fast and loose with crime statistics. Now, with your back up against the wall you attack Diane Abbot and Trevor Philips?

Chancers? Do I detect a hint of professional jealousy there Rod? After all they are doing very well for themselves aren't they? How very dare they!!!!

Do you realise that both your recent blogs have attacked African Caribbean people? That's what they have in common Rod.

Also, tell me more about 'our community, black and white.'....what community is that Rod? Where do you live?

Tell me about you black friends and how much they support your recent rants....

In your own time, naturely.

phil

JON P AND RMT .I see you have managed to attack Rod who finished his article "Precisely. I hate racism, and always have. But the terror of being called racist by chancers like Abbott should not stop us being angry about crime levels which are a disgrace to our community. That’s OUR community; black and white." ---------------------------That seems to me to define his stance and deserves no criticism .Even so as seems so typical of those who write on threads you have failed to address even one point that I made ,and all of which was unambiguous -these boys and girls need help -are you too consumed with your ability to criticise Rod rather than apply your minds to some progress .Meanwhile not one person has complained about the words earlier from wilhelm .I did but either moderation or losing posts has kept it out ,what a sad lot we are .

Wilhelm

''Meanwhile not one person has complained about the words earlier from wilhelm''

What pray tell is wrong with my comment ? Its a work of genius.

phil

Wilhelm
December 15th, 2009 12:00pm -if you do not know I cannot help you -I seem to have sent you back to square one by sending you and your family good wishes for Christmas ,particularly when you wished to send me a photo of your mate nick g for channukah -I never mind a little humour but racist rubbish allied to a lack of courtesy are not my scene -I wonder what hatred you are going to instil in your children when I read those truly horrible remarks .

Wilhelm

Phil

Read the comments from the South African guy who lives in Capetown, 60 murders a day, 300.000 robberies and rapes a year.

KevinSA
December 10th, 2009 12:03pm

KevinSA
December 10th, 2009 3:52pm

Phil, if you cant handle the truth, thats your problem, deal with it, kid.

And yes, the angels are definitley on the side of Rod Liddle on this subject.

RMT

@ Phil. 11am...

I am perfectly happy to address any subject you so wish BUT only with those who are willing put their cards on the table.

IMO there is no progress when those like rod play fast and loose with statistics and then defend themselves by continuing to attack easy targets.

Progress? Rod wants us to believe his community is Black and White and that his Black friends approve of his selective, subject rants.....

There is no progress without honesty.

Show your cards, own your opinions and don't justify yourself by attacking others.

Until then...there is no progress.

No one would dare but agree with Rod about the actions of those young men in the attack of that young woman....why though did Rod need to attack/objectify and undermine a varied and diverse African Caribbean community when he made his original Point? Why now in this blog has he attempted to justify himself by attacking Diane Abott and Trevor Philips?

There is something common about Rod's recent blogs...you may choose to be blind to it but don't expect us all to be ignorant to the subtext.

:)

phil

Wilhelm
December 15th, 2009 8:00pm You are such a knucklehead that you do not even know what Rod has said .

Read what I wrote yesterday and come up with some answers for the future ,a future that your children will inherit,instead of attempting uselessly to impress us all with your wit and condemning them to a miserable life .I know you are a fool ,you have shown us all so many times but you could just try to be a responsible part of this country that has made you welcome .

AC

Yeah middle aged hells angels...

SA has nothing to do with London are you going to reference Afghanistan next or maybe Sarajevo or Bosnia. Hint - there is no link.

Jon P

Phil, you seem to be saying that my comment is invalid simply because Rod ended his article by saying "I hate racism ...". For what its worth I don't think RL is a racist but adding a statement like that does not justify what was previously written - a misconceived, inaccurate and inflammatory blog written to court controversy.

phil

JON P AND RMT .thanks for the replies . I have always thought that Rod is not very careful in his choice of words and at first I took a real dislike to him but after a while I realised he was a good influence and that his messages had resonance .He certainly is still free with his "punches" and sometimes indiscreet but I do not think in this case he is guilty as charged and I have found over a number of years that I have agreed with almost everything he writes ,you will have noted from what I have written that I am no racist and I am sure nor is he .

I am more concerned that nobody has seen fit to address the post that I sent about the future ,it was far more important than a spat about Rod,s language .I warned in my first attempt years ago that we were descending into an abyss and sadly I was proved right .It is proving a real struggle to get anyone in authority to help me in my efforts with these youth clubs,so I had hoped some here might have actually said something pragmatic . That includes you ROD if you read any of this , BECAUSE YOU COULD BE AM IMMENSE HELP .The moderators have my name and email address if you are interested .

Wilhelm

''BECAUSE YOU COULD BE AN IMMENSE HELP .The moderators have my name and email address if you are interested .''

A cry of desperation, for a penpal.

Tragic.

Wilhelm

Having read all the comments on this blog , I think we can ALL safely say that the dopey creed of multiculturalism should be consigned to the dustbin of history where it rightfully belongs and truth, justice and goodness has won the day.

Lungfish

Wilhelm- in certain regards I agree with you.

phil

Lungfish
December 17th, 2009 3:40am -I see from the time of the post that you have had a sleepless night -it could be from reading too much of what the incredible wilhelm writes or was it just the last post ?it was well outside the normal corners of his "mind" -Please DAVID THIS IS NOT TOO BAD :):)and I did send him good wishes for Christmas ,not returned of course .probably still in shock .

Florence of Arabia

Phil - A trifle provincial, not to say Little Englander?

What makes you think Lungfish was posting from your specific time zone? If he's in N America and posting, say, from Central Standard Time, it would have been 9:40 p.m. when he posted. If he were in Rocky Mountain time, it would have been 8:40 p.m. If he is in Pacific Standard Time, it would have been 7:30 p.m. his time. All perfectly sensible times. If he was posting from Sydney (that's in Australia), it would have been 1:40 p.m. the same day. (They're 10 hours ahead of Greenwich Meantime. That's how you work it out.)

Whenever Phil takes an interest in a thread, that's the cue to exit.

phil

Florence of Arabia
December 17th, 2009 2:28p
A wonderful post, I am most obliged ,I rarely come across so advanced an intellect here ,if you are unemployed down there in Arabia please let me know as I have influence with the people who run the speaking clock ,formerly known as TIM .

Lungfish

Lee Jakeman- Got that thanks 'MSM' main stream media- where did that come from!?

Lupus Lungfish

Florence of Arabia- nothing so glamorous I'm afraid, just sitting in front of a nice open fire with my dog in the Midlands. The Mrs staggered upstairs at about one so I thought I'd better finish off the bottle we had opened. As usual I tuned into Liddle's blog and made a few insightful contributions! but thanks for the defence.

The Black Rod

Everyone is so so sensitive these days... you cant say what you really feel without someone jumping down your throat telling you where you fit and telling you to shut up and say it properly because "oh my feelings are hurt".

Let's not get sensitive about Rod's silly rant. There is some truth in it regarding black youths. Everything else is designed to stir up emotions, raise controversy and debate which all seems to have worked as we are still posting.

I could not care less about what the Rod thinks in the same way as he is not bothered about me or my comments.

If his understanding of London culture can be reduced to music and food then he is just uneducated about what Blacks have contributed and could be a journalist who may have got to where he is by sleeping with the right people, instead of the merit of excellence in Journalism. It is not my job to educate him, if he wants the info it is available and if anyone has the resources to get it it's him.

So, take Rod and everything he has said with a small pinch of salt.

We know the truth and can find the info for ourselves without help from selective fools trying to impress with why they are right and everyone else is black.

In the end only a few people have contributed positively with potential solutions but all these have fallen on deaf eyes and blind ears.

So I will do my bit, you do yours and we will meet in the middle.

You can scream and shout but better to know what someone feels than have them pretend.

For every reason people have to justify their beliefs there is an equally compelling argument to counter.

Bottom line is the problem still needs solving and I don't think this is the forum so don't waste your time with this crap.

Where is Boris Johnson when you need him?

I am the Black Rod.

phil

Lupus Lungfish
December 17th, 2009 5:33pm In spite of the knight in rusty armour known as FLORENCE coming to your" rescue" I hope you didnt think I was being smart with you ,it was my pathetic attempt at humour (watch this space its a cue for a cut and paste from Wilhelm).Florence arrives on a magic carpet from time to time to say something nasty to me ,I think it has a geographical origin:) -anyway hope it was a good bottle of RIOJA .I recommend Vina Ardanza reserva.pricey but brilliant .

Lungfish

OK Phil- I'm going to sober up after Jan 1st, just got to get through the inlaws coming for Chrimbo first. I blame the Coca Cola company for the whole damn thing!.