Another Islamist succeeds only in burning his balls

Wilhelm

So another jiggaboo straps a bomb to his leg and trys to blow up an airplane but blows his leg off instead.

He must come from the Keystone Kops branch
of Al Queda, its a shame for them, really it is.

Maximilian

Rod, don't forget the Saudi anal bomber whose failed assassination attempt left a crater in the concrete floor where he'd been standing.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8276016.stm

Jez

I hope your not infringing this fellows human rights by publishing this anti-terrorist rhetoric.

I think diverse-cultures and extreme translations of some religions are brilliant.

Kevin T

Why did they extinguish him? Should have let him burn. Better entertainment than an inflight movie!

workie ticket

Oh Dear, more - as the Govt would call it 'anti-muslim activity'.

When that murdering 'psychiatrist' attacked at Fort Hood recently, the BBC website correspondent's first conclusion was that the attack would raise questions about the US's army pyschology set up. I guess this time the BBC will raise questions on the child rearing ability of millionaire Nigerian bankers.

George J

Heat my shorts, you infidels.

Herbert Thornton

We may get some wry amusement from the fact that a good many would-be terrorists are incompetent, but consider this - nineteen such idiots blow only themselves up: the twentieth one blows himself up and the plane or train is successfully wrecked.

The Islamists then draw up an account sheet -

Muslim martyrs - 20.

Dead and injured infidels - 700

The Islamists, would, on that score certainly have the last laugh.

It should remind us of Osama bin Laden's giggle of amusement when he was interviewed after the Twin Towers collapsed.

Occasional Ostrich

In passing has anybody followed up the reports of the conduct of "Mr. Schuringa"? He certainly seems to have been quite frighteningly competent in his work in ensuring that the alleged suicide bomber couldn't set off any further devices putatively secreted about his body. The only thing stopping me from suspecting that "Mr. Schuringa" was himself an air marshal is that, from reports, he wasn't seated in an aisle seat.

GetEven

Every ethnic group in the world has certain propensities for illness's of one form or another. For instance within Europe, Scotland has the highest rates for heart diseases compared to the Mediterranean countries. When it comes to mental problems it would seem that Islam leads the world for incompetent nutters considering the number of them that try and blow themselves up and fail. I certainly agree with Rod that we need somewhere where these suicide bombers can hone their skills and rather than spoil the Pennines, I'd like to suggest using Gruinard Island in Scotland. This uninhabited Island was first used for biological warfare during WWII and would be ideal as a safe haven away from populated areas. It also has an added incentive to get the suicide bomb right first time rather than be infected with Anthrax and die a painful death.

Baron Pipin II

well now, the guy may have been an utter failure as a pyrotechnic what with a 3-year study at the University College London would one expect anyway, but he certainly succeeded brilliantly in adding yet another irritant to the quality, or absence of it, of air travel for hundreds of millions, in pushing up the cost of airport security checks, and very likely in providing an excuse to the lawmakers world over to curtail the freedom of movement some more. Not a bad outcome for partially burnt balls of just one man, I reckon.

Beer Moth

Hmmm..." we could set up training camps somewhere in the Pennines".

A little late to the table with this idea probably Rodders.

Ray

Forget this suicide bombing pahlava. If Britain's Islamist fanatics want to punish us infidels and finally bring down our society why don't they all just sell up and move house to a selection of marginal parliamentary constituencies and there vote Labour in a few weeks time.

Not Even Likely

It does seem that these fellows (and occasionally ladies) are stupid. All the more stupid because they accomplish nothing, yet they get life in supermax. And life does mean life. That's a long time to think about your failure and wasted life. If a stupid would-be terrorist has the analytical capacity to think about such things, anyway.

Baron

GetEven @ 5.28:

you, my balancing friend, Liddle and few others seem to view the likes of Abdullah as nutters. Big mistake, if I may say so. These people are imbued with a divine calling and a well-defined vision of the future. A loopy vision, of course, in your eyes, but not in theirs. They see their place in a future that furnishes certainty, order, and purpose. The tools of getting to the promised land that the extremists are opting for may not appeal to all of the same persuasion, but the vision does.

Liddle’s right on one thing though: The Israeli Army sides with us.

Dixon

Hang on, wheres this all leading...

After Richard Reid and his shoe shenannigans it was decided we all have to have our shoes inspected at boarding.

The evidence in this latest case ( refer jihadwatch, et al ) is that the putative bomber smuggled his device through security inside his rectum ( spent twenty minutes in the loo getting it out before attempting to set it off ).

So, like I say, where is this all leading...!!!!!!!!

As someone once said apropos some other NAZIs, "the bomber will always get through".
Question is, will our attempts to prevent that result in sacrifices beyond what most of us are willing to make?

Dixon

Herbert Thornton, could you please tell us what airliner carries 700 passengers?

Dixon

"Baron...
Liddle’s right on one thing though: The Israeli Army sides with us."

Do they? Pity ours doesnt side with them then, instead of being used to threaten to arrest their polticians, isnt it?

Dixon

Isnt it clear though, that aside from setting fire to them, this geezer didnt really have the balls to go through with it. After all, he sat out an entire flight from Holland and only began to make a weak effort to carry it out as the journey nearly reached its end.

Isnt it also the case with people like Richarx Reid that their incompetence stems from a diffidence in the face of bringing about their own death.

Israeli research ( Ariel Merari, et al ) indicates that suicide attackers are frequently drunk ( being allowed the privilege in the name of Jihad ), stoned or both, wired up on amphetamines and coaxed by minders up to almost the last moment. That its one thing to get zealoted youths to profess suicidal intentions aforehand but that it takes a whole psycho-pharmacalogical infra-structure to actually make them go through with it. Capped by the basic threat that "if you dont do it well kill you anyway".

Look at all the cases of mentally disabled people and children who have been coerced into becoming ( failed ) suicide attackers.

Isnt it clear that we have blown this ultimately impotent and futile Islamist tactic into much more than it really amounts to. Remote controlled IEDs are a much bigger problem. In any war of attrition, the suicidal are likely to lose in the long run.

Austin Barry

I expect that soon we will all be subject to pre-boarding body cavity searches.

Ideally, the search rooms will be romantically lit with soft mood music in the background. Given, however, current security staffing at London airports, I suspect that we will have an unpleasant encounter with a humourless, officious, rubber-gloved, Bratwurst-fingered thug with a torch and attitude.

Thank you, Islamist chums for your continued erosion of civilised travel.

Herbert Thornton

The Islamist war against the West and against Infidels in general is far from being a conventional war. But it is highly successful because even the tactic of using often incompetent suicide bombers is nevertheless guaranteed, when the actual figures are added up, to bring death to far more Infidels than the number of Islamic "martyrs" expended - their numbers are, in comparison, insignificant.

Sir John Keegan has described this - with frightening accuracy - as an asymmetrical war.

This should make us in turn ask - can civilisation afford to allow such a war to remain asymmetrical?

To effectively fight an enemy who uses asymmetrical tactics and strategy, it seems logical to conclude that the only way to do it is to ensure that the asymmetry is totally reversed.

If the Islamists actually cause 10,000 Infidel deaths while willingly paying the price of only 100 jihadist "martyrs" - and especially if they go on doing it - then does not logic suggest that civilisation will be driven to raise the price measured in numbers of Islamic martyrs to a figure not merely in the millions but a figure that will guarantee the end of Islam? This question will certainly become acute if - or is it when - the Islamists get possession of nuclear bombs.

The non-Muslim western world certainly has the capacity to reverse the asymmetry, but I doubt very much that it has the will for such a thing. But when I ask myself whether this is true of either Russia or China, or even perhaps India, I come to a different conclusion.

I think this is a topic well suited to the start of the next decade.

Fliddle

Ha ha - great ! They're so incompetent that we can afford to relax and read your right-on blogs Rod, and concentrate on the real enemies of mankind - Conservatives!
Your blogs are a bit of a babel of right-on left wing common sense Rod and make perfect sense. No feeling of back sliding at all.

Colin

Occasional Ostrich @4:42pm

The question on my lips isn't - Was Mr. Schuringa a Sky marshall?

But, did Mr. Schuringa use reasonable and proportionate force to subdue the would be Bollock Bomber?

Lungfish

When you look at these lone Islamo' bombers in detail there does seem to be a common thread. Quite a high proportion seem to be well heeled and well educated. Even Bin Laden himself is loaded and educated in the west etc. That bloke from Derby who drowned in Israel after trying to blow a few people up actually went to school with my little brother- they used to trade Cabbage Patch cards in the late eighties at Prep school!- he's just showed them to me. There's something weird going on with these muslims, something to do with chips on shoulders I suspect.

Herbert Thornton

Dixon - I understand that the biggest capacity airliner - at present - is the A830 Airbus that can carry up to 853 passengers.

If one of those, packed to capacity, were made to crash into a densely populated area, it seems reasonable to fear that the death toll could be well over four figures.

Herbert Thornton

Dixon - I meant well 'into' four figures.

Turkey Burnout

Kevin T. nah bad idea!

Fergus Pickering

I think before we all get official rubber fingers up our bums, the 'authorities' might like to run through a simple questionnaire in their heads. Is this guy male, brown to black and answering to a name like Ali? If not, then pass friend. Prejudice is often a fine thing. And it saves on gloves.

Dixon

"Colin
December 27th, 2009 11:54pm
Occasional Ostrich @4:42pm

The question on my lips isn't - Was Mr. Schuringa a Sky marshall?

But, did Mr. Schuringa use reasonable and proportionate force to subdue the would be Bollock Bomber?"

You mean, did he chase him out of the airplane and run all the way to the next cloud before batting his head in.

Dixon

Herbert T, dont be defensive, I just saw that figure as an opportunity for a quick gag. It doesnt mean I am questioning your underlying argument but rather raising the need to be less glum about it.

In fact you could probably get 1000 on an A380 but as far as I know none at present carry more than about 500. Indeed, if it were necessary, the venerable C5A Galaxy ( in service since before the 747 ) could probably get 1000 grunts abord, in tight formation. Though there might be tight competition for access to its famous military spec crash survivable coffee vending machine!

Anyway, when a 747 crashed at Schipole, wasnt the death toll of both passengers and local residents over 700! Im sure it could easily have been, anyway.

Nexus

It can dangerous to be flippant as it only takes one of these nut-bars to succeed and we have a serious calamity to deal with. Hiding explosives internally sets all sorts of security challenges.

Lungfish

ROBERT TAGGART- My little bruv went to Foremarke not Brocksford!- and yes that suicidal maniac was in his class. Quite funny actually, we were just up the pup talking about bombs in underpants etc. when he suddenly told us about his good mate who turned into a homicidal muslim suicide bomber!- Cabbage Patch cards n'all!. Then my other brother comes up with a classic chestnut.
Two muslims in a camping shop- one tries on a rucksack and asks the other 'does my bomb look good in this'? etc. The old ones are the best!

Lungfish

Lets face it- these muslims are just something that the press like to blither about. Myself and a few friends once got into a punch up with these muslims. They held sticks and bottles above their heads, and whooped and screamed and then ran away. Reminded me of the 'Mother of all Battles'!- bullshit and bluster. I'm far more concerned about Putin myself- the real threat.

Verity

Air travel, always uncomfortable and inconvenient and now overly bossy, is over. Even First Class is ghastly, given the alternative of being on a ship and able to walk around, go to bars and restaurants and sleep in a private cabin.

Video conferencing, the net, reliable and cheap international phone calls and, if you must go in person, fast ships that will get you there comfortably in three days. Just slightly longer than you plod through the upheaval for your flight.

Air - over.

Roy

These are the people that come and go through Britain's fair isles. As the saying goes: The Rotten Fruit of Multiculturalism.

Osama bin Seacole

Being somewhat starved of decent political discussion on world matters here in South Africa, please could someone explain something that's been worrying me for a while. If 'moderate' Islamic leaders repeatedly fail en masse, to speak out against terrorism, does that not make them complicit to the crime - and if this is the case, should they not be treated as any other enemy of the State? Have I missed something?

Westo

Rod, who would have thought your short story "The Lost Honour of Engin Hassan" would prove to be so prescient?

phil

Good job for mr Shuringa he was not on a BA flight ,he would have been arrested and incarcerated for overreaction ,then the perpetrator set free due to the pain in his balls making him unfit to plead .

rod liddle

Westo - yes, thank you for that. And the publishers didn't want it in the book because they thought it would "cause trouble". And as with Engin, we've also had a glut of "reformed" Muslim terrorists appearing on chat shows telling us stuff.

DeeJay

What a strange dichotomy you have offered us Ron? Palestinian authority ..etc, Bad or Israeli army, Good. Did you spend too much time at the Spectator Christmas party talking to Melanie Phillips? There expect there are still a few moderates left on both sides, but unfortunately their views have been obscured by Israeli and Palestinian religious fundamentalists. To make matters worse, the UKs contribution to the peace process is that totally discredited warmonger, Tony Blair.

Liz

Verity. Nice try. Unfortunately the words Achille Lauro spring immediately to mind. These bastards will destroy anything.

Liz

Dixon."Herbert T, dont be defensive, I just saw that figure as an opportunity for a quick gag."
Er.....does the word 'gag' have a new meaning in your lingo? If not, please explain just what's so funny about all this...

Maximilian

@ Osama bin Seacole (today at 8:15 am)

If 'moderate' Islamic leaders repeatedly fail en masse, to speak out against terrorism, does that not make them complicit to the crime -

Yes, it does.

and if this is the case, should they not be treated as any other enemy of the State?

Yes, they should.

Have I missed something?

No, you haven't.

rod liddle

Not "good" or "bad", Deejay, but competent versus incompetent.

Baron

Lungfish @ 11.54:

if you sure your little brother traded Cabbage Patch cards with the good looking Abdullah you may be on to something. The Government should ban forthwith the Cabbage Patch paper bits. Cabbage goes well with pork and a glass of good brew. Only a blind may fail to see the corruptive influence of this seemingly innocent culinary combination so prevalent in the Western culture on the young, impressionable and PC guided mind of the offspring of our multicultural friends: cabbage-pork-spirits. It screams danger loud and clear, and is only a short step from the testicle blowing plastic explosives.

In2minds

Rod Liddle @ 10.13am - "we've also had a glut of "reformed" Muslim terrorists appearing on chat shows telling us stuff".

Yeah, along with writing a book about 'My life as a Jihadist' there's money to be had from it.

Baron

Osama bin Seacole @ 8.15:

you, and others, may like to scan the essay below. Endorse its argument or not, the piece fails in one respect: it says nothing what to do next.

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/2009/05/fearmasqueradingastolerance/

DeeJay

Ron, incompetent? I expect you mean that Fatah are divided and corrupt and that Hamas are fundamentalists fighting a proxy war on behalf of their benefactors. If that is your view I would probably agree.

But did the heavily armoured Israeli army prove its competance against a largely civilian population 12 months ago? Its a pity that with a general election looming, Tzipi Livni felt the need to prove her right wing credentials in the slums of Gaza.

Im my opinion, long term peace can only be acheived by encouraging Israeli liberals and Palestinian democrats. So I still reject your original choice between Good and Bad.

Noa Zrk

I originally thought from its headline that this article was about the danger of spilling hot curry in aircraft seats, probably whilst drunk, but on reading it I see that it's simply a further expression of Southern prejudice against the North; a continuation of the whippet disparaging leer from the Bazalgette generated London suburbs. Why should jihadists be sent to the Pennines? Surely Millwall FC, Parliament,the New Forest and the Isle of Wight provide extensive and realistic training opportunities for the would-be martyr?
Ask yourself the question who can be better spared, an MP or the Angel of the North, and it becomes obvious where our more angry citizens should explode themselves.

Gil

On behalf of Health and Safety I think that Mr. Schuringa has a case to answer for...

Deejay, your comments on the Israeli army and its conduct in Gaza are a case of 'damned if they do and damned if they don't' and as such are hypocritical. How, pray, are they expected to prove their 'competence' against a civilian population in Gaza without causing more civilian casualties than they actually did? No pleasing some people...

On Livni: She was part of a government which owed (still does) a responsiblity to its citizens to remove the threat of missiles which would have eventually caused depopulation of that part of the Negev. Elections had nothing to do with it. Would you prefer Israel, considering her security situation, never to have elections? Her primary duty was to the Israelis, not to Palestinians. Just as Baroness Thatcher owed a duty to the Falklanders and not to Argentinians.

JohnBUK

Fergus Pickering - agree absolutely. Perhaps the time has come for some element of racial/or similar profiling - presumably the Human Rights Act will have to be abandoned (whose rights hold sway after all?) which will also mean kicking the EUSSR into touch.
It seems there are 500,000+ people on the MI5 watched list of which some 40k are designated "non-fly". All 500k should be on the no-fly list and only allowed to fly under the strictest rules and searching.
Whilst there will still be "security checks" for the remainder perhaps it needn't be so exhaustive and time-consuming.

Baron

DeeJay @ 12.45:

one can see a segment of the Israeli population that may satisfy to your definition of liberal. Could you remind me though of any democrats on the Hamas side?

phil

DeeJay
December 28th, 2009 12:45pm We could produce millions of Israeli liberals who wish for peace and justice for all sides ,but can you find one A4 size piece of paper with Palestinian democrats who do not wish to destroy Israel and instead recognise their right to exist .

As the joke goes ,its like suicide bombers looking for 72 virgins in Liverpool when there is not even one -please no complaints from SCOUSERS -I love you , and I know one -blame Stan Boardman .;)

logdon

Judging by the reaction on the US blogs to yet more searches it looks like profiling is the answer.

Obviously Barry Hussein Obama won't be too pleased but it will happen, eventually.

To add to the discomfiture I'd suggest that cavity searches of the selected Muslims is designated to the campest, flounciest, double entendre hurling officials they can find. And, touch those toes. Graham Norton Security Services has, ahem, a nice ring to it.

In the US Muslima's case, Imac dodging Janet Napolitano lookalikes would suffice. Back here we'd make do with Jo Brand.

Augustus

The roots of Jihadist terror partly originate from cultures in history that embraced similar views of sacrifice. But their true purpose of sacrifice goes far beyond civic necessity,
as in ancient Sparta for example. Here, sacrificial practice is a determinably sacred expression of religion. By a desperately hoped for conquest of personal death the Jihadist terrorist hopes to realize the otherwise unattainable promise of immortality. Paradoxically, he kills himself and innocent others in an ecstatic desire to live forever. The actual 'death'
that he expects to suffer in 'suicide' is merely a momentary inconvenience on his fiery path to life everlasting.
In their religious extremist eyes, dying in the act of killing infidels and apostates is presumed to buy freedom from the penalty of actual death, so they attempt to conquer their mortality by killing themselves for Allah. And because violence against the United States is a convenient way of achieving martyrdom, such terrorists can never be deterred by ordinary threats of reprisals or retaliation. To combat these threats the West will have to seek very different and more purposeful measures of dissuasion. for the enemy is not only willing to die, he seeks his own sacrificial death, either individually, and in the extremist of cases,
collectively.

smog

Multiculturalism is fine - the only reason it is failing is because the idiots, and I use this word in its full pejorative sense, cannot distinguish between the fanatics and those who wish to get on with life.

Unfortunately there is one particular religion which produces fanatics by the bucket, and those in positions of leadership of said religion are content to play along, using their underpants-frying brothers as bargaining chips.

The British political classes are good at supplying the (dead) pan, though fat lot of good this will do them in the long run.

Tiberius

I hear Ahmad The Dead Terrorist is looking for a straight man to form a double act.

Well a guy with scorched balls and no skin below the hips sounds an ideal candidate for the role. At least that's what the ad in the Situations Vacant said.

workie ticket

'we could set up training camps somewhere in the Pennines suicidal Muslims could learn to blow themselves up'

Yes - we could name them something like Bradford, Batley and Dewsbury etc etc - towns not far from the Pennines themselves.

Herbert Thornton

Verity's comments about the superiority of shipboard travel induced an overwhelming feeling of nostalgia. They also reminded me - and I think Verity is probably familiar with it - of the line "And the shouting seas drive by" in Kipling's L'envoi.

The whole thing is here -

http://www.bartleby.com/101/866.html

And apropos the main topic of this blog, something more to ponder is this, also from Kipling -

http://www.readbookonline.net/readOnLine/8346/

Verity

George J - Funny!

logdon

One man causes mayhem.

Think what this lot will do.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-3X5hIFXYU

The Jihad has many facets. This is the one we must fight.

Verity

Liz - No. Not "nice try", whatever that means in this context. The Achille Lauro was, in 1985, one of the first Muslim terrorist aggressions. That was 25 years ago and no tourist ship or ocean going liner has been targeted by terrorists since then (I hope I am not putting a jinx on it by so writing).

They murdered people one by one. It was not a mass terrorist attack in the same sense as bringing down an airliner full of passengers over a big city.

They should be building fast ocean liners right now, because air travel is going to get worse and worse and more unbearable. Even a small bomb, let's say rectum-sized, would not have much impact on an ocean liner, especially as passengers cannot go anywhere near the workings or piloting of the ship.

The thought of having to waste three hours of one's life hanging around an airport before flight time is simply insane - or would drive one so if one had to fly often. And it doesn't seem that long ago since Southwest Airlines had self-ticketing ... they had little machines at the gate, just in front of the door to the plane and you keyed in your destination and credit card number and out popped a little ticket almost like a bus ticket, and you went ahead and walked onto the plane.

It sincerely baffles me that people like that Islamic nutter major at Ft Hood, TX, and these two Nigerian arseholes (tee hee) have to have a trial. Why? Everyone saw what happened. They did it. Don't even bang them up. Just shoot them or give them a lethal injection or whatever ...

Some passenger group also needs to sue the FAA for allowing people like this on planes in the first place. The first terrorist's own father had warned the American government that his son was a jihadi nut job. It was only suicidal political correctness that got him boarded in the first place.

hadrian

Lungfish- You speculate that 'something weird' is going on with these Muslims. Actually, there is nothing weird about it. It is the perfectly logically coherent from the perspective of their inherently fanatical, self-righteous religion where one can 'work' one's way into their Paradise of sexual and ( yes!) alcoholic bliss. Charming religion of peace, indeed.

Crap Detector

The 2004 SuperFerry 14 bombing on February 27, 2004, was an Islamic terrorist attack that resulted in the sinking of the ferry SuperFerry 14 and the deaths of 116 people in the Philippines' deadliest terrorist attack and the world's deadliest terrorist attack at sea.[1]

Sir Graphus

We have the luxury of laughing at them for now.

However, I understand (though I'm no student of history) that the IRA weren't much good at it when they started.

Mind you, this lot don't make themselves available for a lessons-learned debriefing, do they?

Dixon

"Fergus Pickering
December 28th, 2009 12:24am
I think before we all get official rubber fingers up our bums, the 'authorities' might like to run through a simple questionnaire in their heads. Is this guy male, brown to black and answering to a name like Ali? If not, then pass friend. Prejudice is often a fine thing. And it saves on gloves."
No mate, thats not prejudice, thats rationalism.

Prejudice means making a judgement prior to any basis in fact.

All the facts are that not all Muslims are terorists but that all but a handful of the three to five thousand terrorist attacks since 2001 were carried out by Muslims.

The prejudice comes in when...as a matter of fact...the British police conduct knowingly unnecessary stop-n-search routines on apparently non-Muslim pedestrians to balance out the statistics for the fact that most of the REAL stp-n-search routines are onn obviously Muslim suspects. This is prejudice, because it assumes prior to any facts that suspects must be equally ditributed between Muslim and non-Muslim communities. Therefore the figures have to be cooked to makle that appear so. That, quite literally, is prejudice. And it is prejudice in favour of Muslims.

I take the view expressed by Martin Amis. We should focus our security efforts totally and squarely upon the community of those we know for a fact to be the terrorists among us. If they get rather uncomfortable with being continually quized about who they are, what they are doing, where they are going, every time the step out the door, then maybe theylll get the message and offer up the minority of their community ( or so they say ) who are the actual plotters.

On the other hand, Martin Amis deserves an award for cowardice for subsequently retracting his remarks.

daniel maris

From Open Salon -

"In case you haven't heard, Al Qaeda has developed a rectum insertable bomb device as a way of concealing enough plastic explosives to destroy an airliner when the suicide bomber 'mule' detonates his rectum with a weak radio signal that can be transmitted from a wristwatch or cellphone. Forget the dumb jokes about Ex-Lax constipation medicine...this technique was tried already in an assassination attempt on a Saudi Prince a few weeks ago. The rectum bomb apparently wasn't strong enough to do the job, just wounding the 'Prince' non-mortally, but the principle has now been established, the technical aspects of this particular kind of bomb-making are posted on the Jihadi websites, and the world's air travel security is seriously threatened because no scanning machine technology at airports, like X-Raying, or chemical sniffing, has the capability to detect and defeat the 'asshole bomb.'"

Although most of what Verity says is the usual verbal gibbering about extra-judicial execution, I do agree with her that the viability of air transport may become questionable if the only way to combat Al Queda is to have 4 hour queues and full body searches.

Thinking laterally about this, perhaps we will end up with a situation where you need to be positively vetted to be approved for air travel. Or perhaps commercial companies will charter aeroplanes and only allow such vetted people on their craft. There could be a commercial opening there.

High speed trains seem just about as vulnerable as aircraft, especially when one considers they can be carrying two thousand people in one go.

Hi speed boat travel is intrinsically safer.

Dixon

"Lungfish
December 28th, 2009 2:04am
Lets face it- these muslims are just something that the press like to blither about. Myself and a few friends once got into a punch up with these muslims. They held sticks and bottles above their heads, and whooped and screamed and then ran away. Reminded me of the 'Mother of all Battles'!- bullshit and bluster. I'm far more concerned about Putin myself- the real threat."

No mate, its the demographics that dwarf the supposed terror threat. Whose terrified? Im not. But I know for a fact, because Mark Steyn ( PBH ) has shown statistically before my very eyes, that inside this century Britain will be a Muslim nation. Theres absolutely nothing that Islamists need to do to bring that about except go on having kids. Indeed, the fewer of them that carry out suicide attacks the faster it will happen!

Theres absolutely nothing anyone can do to stop Britain becoming a Muslim nation except maybe start having ten child families. My parents did their bit, they had 8 kids. Im having none. But as you know, Im a nihilist. My feeling is "let it happen". Once the Muslims rule most of the planet, then all, the science and technology they rely on to be provided by non-Muslims and which they so love to use will cease to be developed and their "victory" will turn to ashes.

Then there'll be another cycle: reconquistada, crusades, etc.

So what.

Who gives a monkeys.

The sun'll rise, the sun'll set. I wont be here to give a damn.

What I DO care about is the serious inconvenioence caused by our ridiculous security apparatus, searches, checks, etc, all distributed equally as a curse upon all of us even though the supposed threat emanates exclusively from one tribe in our midst.

And anyway, an airplane gets blown up once in a while. A few hundred people die. Itll still be the safest form of transport! Let the "terrorists" do what they will, you'll still be more likely to get mown down by a reckless driver on the high street.

If the whole point is for them to generate "terror"and all we offer in return is apathy...guess what, they'll have lost!

Dixon

Verity:"They should be building fast ocean liners right now, because air travel is going to get worse and worse and more unbearable. Even a small bomb, let's say rectum-sized, would not have much impact on an ocean liner, especially as passengers cannot go anywhere near the workings or piloting of the ship."

As ever, it comes down to money. The technology already has been demonstrated that would make airliners able to survive any bomb small enough to be smuggled through security. The problem is that the weight would make any airplane so protected impossibly uncompetitive.

However, if all airplanes had to be constructed to that standard, thus making air-travel as expensive as going on a cruise, the airlines could still compete profitably but the number of us flying would plummet. Thus keeping the Greens happy no doubt ( except when it came to their needing to fly to the latest conference or demo ).

Meanwhile, explosives technology will have moved on.

A similar situation exists on a smaller scale regarding systems that can protect airliners against surface to air missiles. Only the Israelis intend to deploy such measures, as everyone else calculates that it would be better for their books in the long run just to risk occasionally having one of their planes shot down. So far, its only happenned once or twice.

Of course, youve overlooked that other romantic alternative, airships. Technocrats have been predicting their comeback for decades.

Meanwhile, the inevitable acquisition by Al Qaida et al of nuclear weapons ( the bets are not on whether but how soon ) will make them lose interest in airplanes. Why kill a few hundred when you can obliterate all of London?

I dont live in London. And as I say, Im a nihilist who likes declaring "I told you so". Therefore I say "bring it on".

Dixon

Meanwhile everyone, Richard Branson is seriously planning to inroduce exo-atmospheric rocket-plane travel. His space-tourism project which commences flights in this coming year is only the first step in developing the technology. The "mothership" is roughly twice as big as needed to launch the "spaceship two" vehicle. Big enough to launch a follow-on sub-orbital executive transport perhaps!

It would be very fast. Very cramped. And astronomically expensive to ride in.

The only people who could afford the tickets would be rich kids who live in $4million apartments...like, uh, the Delta Bum-Bomber!

Lungfish

Baron- My little bruvs Foremark Hall friend was that Israeli maniac suicide bomber- and they did trade Cabbage Patch cards apparently!

Dixon

Correction, the Northwest bum-bomber.

Latest is that his handlers ( who planned it ) are both ex-Guantanamo internees!

I have to laugh!

Roy

Since it is the Islamics that are responsible for the threats to blow up all forms of transport; wouldn't it be sensible to have it illegal for them to travel on our western public transport systems?

Ken

So the terrorists have effectively won.

Air travel is now a hugely inconvenient nightmare for millions and will only get much worse.

Profile the passengers or better still separate the airlines, entirely justified under Halal.

Craig Strachan

Mr Schuringa's actions are certainly admirable but - for me at least - he doesn't quite fill the shoes of a John Smeaton, who interrupted a suicide bomber in mid-martyrdom with a boot to the balls accompanied by the immortal battle cry of "Fuckin 'mon then!"

Major Plonquer

Perhaps the British education system is producing fruit at last....

Major Plonquer

I think Muslim parents are at fault here. They should teach their children that 'practice makes perfect'.

smog

American news channels reporting that two of the plotters behind the pants-on-fire Syringe 'Spongebob' Bomber were released from Gitmo.

You couldn't make it up.

Verity

Major Plonquer – Yes, I, too, blame the parents for inept suicide bombers. Those boys should have been encouraged to practice at home, under the watchful eyes of their parents and their fathers’ other wives.

Craig Strachan – John Smeaton is one of my heroes. A fast thinker and a realist.

Whoever referred above to “fast cruise ships”: I was not referring to cruise ships. I was referring to passenger liners which can cross the Atlantic in three days, in comfort, safely because even if some Islamic jerk did succeed in exploding his underpants, it would only do a tiny amount of damage on board a passenger liner. It would also save on the administrative costs of arresting, imprisoning and trying the bomber as he may accidentally fall overboard with no one, apparently, hearing his cried for help.

phil

Another astonishingly good idea from a certain female .Take a five hour journey and turn it into 3 days ,get sea sick and spend a fortune ,what a triumph for the bum blaster and his pals.,,who no doubt would transfer his equipment to his portmanteau or send for a submarine from his pal the dinnerjacket who has just promised a punch in the mouth for the Brits .
Chamberlain would have been proud of such an advance in thought .Maybe it was a joke but it will be the first one ever from that source .I will keep my bum protector on and line my coopers with armour plating in anticipation of the usual insults and abuse that normally follow . Its been missing from my daily rations since Obama settled in and the world did not come to her predicted end .

David Ossitt

Just think; how much time and money has been spent by his parents in trying to legitimately educate this young man, then the hours, weeks and months his Al Qaeda handler spent in training him to be a bringer of death a walking lethal weapon.

All for nothing; a total failure.

Al Qaeda must despair of the lack of talent in their African conscripts.

Baron

Verity @ 4.29:

Was I mistaken to think that there was more brawn to you than the verbal punching of your blogging? I reckon we should be even more determined to travel by air, and if need arises strangle the deluded bastards should they show a sign of doing anything more than breathing.

Your passenger liner idea solves bugger all. What if the jerk infected himself with an easily spreadable and deadly bug before boarding the contraption and passed it over to others in the mid-Atlantic or wherever?

Dixonn

I know Phil that you were joking about terrorists using submarines...
BUT
... according to an article in ( I think it was ) Slate earlier in the year, submarines ARE in fact Al Qaidas next anticipated weapon of choice!

This stems from the fact that South American drugs smugglers have been using home-made submarines with great success. Apparently, they have been used numerous times and whenever the US coastgaurd tries to intercept them the two or three man crews simply scuttle them so that no evidence can be retrieved and they cannot even be charged!

Now, the money invested by the cartels in engineering has created a manufacturing base for these disposable vessels and it is thought it would be easy for Al Qaida to simply buy some off the shelf. The uses they can then be put to are limited only by imagination, and their incompetence of course.

Richard

And I suppose we will have to pay for the new pair?

Old Holborn

Let's hope they stick to ancient and respected African medicine to heal his wounds

Fergus Pickering

Dixon, my son, According to my wife, who is of course always right, Edmund Burke said that Prejudice was a sort of collective rationality. So we are both right.

daniel maris

The more I think about it, the more I think there woudl be some merit in "super-passports" for air travel. People who were prepared voluntarily to submit a thorough vetting process including perhaps lie detector test, might be awarded super-passports. Flights could then be organised with 100% super passport holders. For those flights people would have to submit to only light security.

Pot Head

Scaredy Cats. You could fly 20 flights/year & have lower chance of being hit by terrorists than hit by lightning

one terrorist incident per 16,553,385 departures in the US

http://bit.ly/8eDRDp

Wilhelm

''The more I think about it, the more I think there woudl be some merit in "super-passports" for air travel.''

Once you get that sorted out with all the worlds governments, come back to us Dan and do tell us how you got on, eh ?

blokey ticket

RE:'Super Passports' I prefer a cheaper and simpler approach to airport security. At check in you are offered a sausage roll or a bacon sarney. If you refuse - for whatever reason - you are subject to rigorous searches and checks. I reckon, for example, our Jewish brothers would back this idea to the hilt.

Not 100% foolproof I admit, but a lot cheaper and effective than the current pussyfooting we currently endure and fund

phil

blokey ticket
December 29th, 2009 10:59pm they do not eat either ,you would have to offer them chicken soup-kosher of course :)

Dixon

"Pot Head
December 29th, 2009 8:28pm
Scaredy Cats. You could fly 20 flights/year & have lower chance of being hit by terrorists than hit by lightning

one terrorist incident per 16,553,385 departures in the US"

Exactly what I've been saying. I'm amazed ( actually a bit worried ) that we agree on something.

The best response to putative "terrorism" is apathy.
If they try their darndest to terrorise us and we just muddle on as though they dont exist, then they've lost.

And about those here who take the "it aint a laughing matter" posture: in 1940 just about the only weapon Britain had to defend itself from Hitler ( other than the RAF ) was humour. I remember the wartime joke that my aunt gave me: a small porceline commode with a picture of Hitler inside and on the outside the legend: "Gest-a-po".

I dare say Liz would think that was in appalling bad taste! But tonnes of such stuff was churned out in all the media during Britains resistence against Fascism. Today, as many commentors here obviously demonstrate, humour is still an essential weapon against the modern version of fascism, Al Qaida et al. Fascists really cannot take not being regarded seriously. Look at the effect a few cartoons had a while back. Killed more of our enemies than the British Army in Basra!

Thats possibly a numerical fact.

Robert Vincent

No Rod, it's not "Allah trying to tell them something" but a hint from all those virgins they are hoping to meet. The girls have become fed up wih a stream of inexperienced, immature boys.
They want men.

blokey ticket

RE: phil
December 30th, 2009 1:25am

Phil - I knows it and I knows that our Jewish bretheren would happily submit to extra inconvenience (as in more than yer gentile majority) if it meant we could concentrate valuable anti-terrorist effort agains the known current (Muslim) threat rather than wasting time on, say middle aged female white women on internal domestic flights so as to be seen as 'non-discriminatory.

smog

The main blog has a picture of the actual pants, and all we get here is a lousy jet.

Update!

daniel maris

Wilhelm -

Only trying to help...I always get picked for the pat down/touch up as it is. The thought of more of the same is quite depressing.

There is no reason why the USA, EU, Japan and other advanced democratic states couldn't come up with something.

daniel maris

Blokey Ticket - If you are being serious then you are definitely on the wrong track. Mohammed said "war is deceit". The 9-11 operatives were given a free pass to indulge in "Western" pursuits such as attending lap dancing clubs in order to dispel suspicion. They are advised by AQ to purchase alcohol and leave empty cans around to suggest they are non-observant Muslims. The idea that a suicide bomber would turn down a bacon sandwich is risible. He'd have got a Fatwa allowing him to eat it beforehand.

Roger Dodger

Old Holborn's ability to parachute in the perfect comment is becoming spooky.

daniel maris

Dixon -

I agree we should personally show courageous (or as you point out not really so courageous) indifference to the threat.

HOwever, in terms of security, the threat cannot be ignored. Planes are also deadly weapons as we saw at 9-11 that could actually kill tens of thousands of people or close down large parts of the country if targetted correctly.

The threat should not be underestimated.

phil

Why oh why are we allowing these evil minded so called students to infect our student life aided and abetted by left wing deluded professors ?-have we not been told by the nutter from Bradford or was it Leeds that "we are at war" in his infamous video .prior to taking his leave of wife and family ?- A martyr ? no a lunatic but a dangerous one ,and now ordinary British youngsters are being infected with the evil expounded by these people ,how long are we going to take this before our very country as we know it is lost to us .

They kill all over the world Christians, Jews and Moslems regardless of their affiliations .What would I do ? I WOULD MAKE IT AN OFFENCE PUNISHABLE BY DEPORTATION TO WHERE THEY CAME FROM WITH IMMEDIATE EFFECT FOR ANYONE CAUGHT PREACHING HATRED AGAINST OUR NATION,AND REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY SAY THEY WILL BE TREATED BADLY IN THAT COUNTRY,presumably they did something wicked there too ., and for any British national, immediate imprisonment at her Majesties pleasure. We are at war !!and in the last world war at first we locked up even the innocents who were thought to be a risk as did the USA ,those found to be harmless were released and caused no problems ,even fought in our armies ,do any of you think these lunatics would fight on our behalf ?

We are losing it badly as can be seen on our feral streets but at least we can handle that problem ,but when our kids are taught in the universities by professors with twisted ideologies we are in real trouble ,minds that can tell their students to boycott Israeli universities where immense advances for mankind are being researched and taught ,merely because they do not agree with some political decisions of their government ,and then allow and encourage the demented hatred being preached on their campus sights ,then we should realise what trouble we are fermenting for ourselves .We have to take stock and very soon because in less than twenty years we will have been overwhelmed and our loyal and integrated Muslim communities had better join us vociferously before they become the victims along with us .

blokey ticket

RE: daniel maris
December 30th, 2009 1:16pm..

Daniel, I've seen both theories practiced. Apparently, and only more recently, it has been suggested that human bombs have been given an Imam's permission to, say, have a bacon sarney or some Dutch courage while on operation. More commonly though, when on operation, the bomber has to be in a state of absolute ideological purity in order to pass to paradise and so no beer, butties or pubic hair allowed. No doubt this is a matter of heated theological debate in Waziristan, Sana'a or Walthamstow.

I know its not a perfect system but I think it would definately help, at a very very low cost, to deter a large proportion of potential suicidists.

Dixon

Daniel Maris, cant you tell a joke when you see it or did you really, so seriously think Phil was literally suggesting sausage rolls as a test of faith?

But of what you say: "HOwever, in terms of security, the threat cannot be ignored. Planes are also deadly weapons as we saw at 9-11 that could actually kill tens of thousands of people or close down large parts of the country if targetted correctly.

The threat should not be underestimated."

The fact is that fewer than 3000 people died in NY and we got the opportunity to build something new on the reclaimed land. The reason it was so shocking is that a) noone expected it and b) it was a feat to pull it off.

I think the way we live is vastly more important than the way we die. We all die sooner or later. Frankly, I think a few thousand deaths earlier than expected here and there, now and again is less of a problem than impediments and loss of freedom imposed on everyone, every day of their lives. Thats the situation we are getting into.

Now, if you are talking about terrorists blowing up power stations and crippling the economy, etc, that IS serious. But those are things which we can seriously prevent without inconveniencing everyone. The French deployed anti-aircraft missile batteries at their power plants. Doesnt inconvenience anyone.

Its nothing to do with being "courageous". Its just a case of not being hysterical, as the media seems to want us to be. I couldnt be "terrorised" by a bunch of imbeciles and cowards who cannot work out how to use a razor even if I tried to be!

They deserve only contempt. But you see, tghats the problem, our "elites" permit us only expressions of respect for the "religion of peace".

Dixon

Sorry, not Phil, I meant Blokey Ticket.

daniel maris

Dixon -

As you can see from the posts, Blokey Ticket was not joking.

AS for your other points, I accept the general point about not panicking, and having to be prepared to see people die as the price of liberty.

But I still think you underestimate the threat. Maybe "only" 3000 died on 9-11 but that means probably 100,000 deeply touched by those deaths for many years. And on that day millions were put in fear of their lives. The economic dislocation was huge.

Fortunately Jihadists don't seem the most imaginative or efficient of people. But UK Police have already warned us to expect a Mumbai style attack in central London.

Dixon

Daniel Maris,
Hmmm, that Blokey bloke, I did notice that...

But on your main point:
"But I still think you underestimate the threat. Maybe "only" 3000 died on 9-11 but that means probably 100,000 deeply touched by those deaths for many years. And on that day millions were put in fear of their lives. The economic dislocation was huge. "

Isnt the economic dislocation mainly a result of the tightened security?

I have at least two friends who work in security so I hate to say this, but I regard that to be essentially an industry of parasitical layabouts who must be an enormous drain on industry, especially the retail sector. Weve all heard about shoplifters making off with entire furnishing departments and a three piece suite as soon as the cashiers back is turned but I cannot believe those armies of uniformed irrelephants dont cost more than the value of goods stolen. Surely the reason for them is something to do with qualifying their employers to claim theft lossees back on insurance. Liability window-dressing.

Something similar must be true of all those employed now in airports. They've never actually stopped a single terrorist. Never. Not once. Its always another passenger or a complete bystander like that bloke in Glasgow, who prevents an attack.

That applies also to all their pathetic OTT check-in procedures. When was the last time they ever caught a terrorist at check-in? I cannot think of a single instance.

The bombers either get on the plane or they arent trying to. Security has no bearing upon it.

60,000 Brits died in the Blitz. Did the rest of them run about pulling out their hair in terror over the fact they could do nothing about it? And, really, when it got to the point when hypersonic ballistic missiles were falling out of space with a ton of amytol on the tip of each ( V2's ) there really was absolutely nothing anyone could do to avoid it. You couldnt even hear them coming until the sound-waves caught up, AFTER the explosion!

If its got your number on it, as they used to say.

No the real threat is two-fold. Atomic IEDs, yes, but more fundamentally, demographics. As I mentioned earlier, Mark Steyn has demonstrated that Britain will be mostly Muslim in just a few decades. You can do no more to change that than you could dodge a V2 missile!

lupus

You're right Baron

Ken

"UK Police have already warned us to expect a Mumbai style attack in central London"...

Exactly daniel maris, government and its agencies cry wolf all the time, it's part of the total social control game played by the Marxists.

Look at the idiot chief medical officer with his loony claims of millions will die every time there's a bit of flu about.

Amanda in America

Unfortunately, we are not the Israeli Army much less the Israeli Defence Forces. If that creep had been attempting to fly El-Al -- well, he wouldn't have got on the plane. Or near the tarmac.

The Israelis are serious about staying alive. They are also serious about preserving the decencies and achievements of high civilization. At the moment, those willing to die for a god that doesn't exist and a 'good' that is nothing but hell on earth could well imagine that we aren't so serious.

Noa Zrk

Dixon..
"the real threat is two-fold. Atomic IEDs, yes, but more fundamentally, demographics...".
So it is.
Taking this approach we can look at terrorist activities as simply one end of the spectrum of the continuing clash of world cultures; between Islam and Western Judeo-Christian democracy. We are of course simply being out-bred in this competition. Furthermore any serious attempt to change this situation is only likely to occur as a result of increased and successful terrorism on a wide scale in the West, leading to widespread violence, civil disorder, the overthrow of existing governments and their replacement by governments of a nationalist hue.
An alternative would to encourage repatriation, by an immediate cessation of muslim immigration, withholding and withdrawal of citizenship and state benefits rights, the limitation of real property, ownership and business rights to secure majority indigenous participation.
All of which would cause a howl of protest from the "Progressives" of all the major parties. Notwithstanding the wails of protest in the UK, Europe and the US such a course would cause, all of these methods are common practice in most countries, including Pakistan and the rest of the muslim world, oh and India.

robbo

why hasn't anyone simply thought of installing cameras in airplane lavatories?

Michael Hooper

I consider your article to be totally stupid. There certainly have been failures, and lives were not lost becuase of it, however these fanatics will keep on trying to main and kill until they have perfected their weapons of destruction. They are loosing a few foot soldiers, but there are many lining up to take their place. The U.K. is full of disenchanted Muslims going to the Yemen, Pakistan and Afghanistan so I hope that our security services are making note of them and putting them on the "no fly list", not just to the USA, but any non-Muslim country. All young Asians travelling should be profiled and thoroughly checked at airports...lets face it, without exception all the terrorist have been Muslim. I am a 70 year old WASP, but have go go through the same checks at airports as more potential hazardous passengers.

blokey non-jokey ticket

Happy New Year to all Speccy readers - particularly those who vote or volunteer or bring up children or drink proper beer.

Craig Strachan

robbo: "why hasn't anyone simply thought of installing cameras in airplane lavatories?"

Well, that'd be the end of the Mile High Club.

daniel maris

Noa Zrk -

Why are you associating Judaism and Christianity with democracy?

Judaism historically was associated with rule by Kings or religious clerics. Christianity, similarly, Emperors, Kings or clerics.

Democracy is a natural form of government and was first perfected in sophisticated form in the Mediterranean world.

Modern democracy grew out of the secular and working class movements more than Judaism or Christianity. Democracy was specifically opposed by the Papacy and Rabbis have generally upheld Jewish law as superior to laws passed by democratic parliaments.

daniel maris

Ken -

I take it you are aware of what happened in Mumbai. Why on Earth do you think it couldn't happen in London?

Incredible mindless assumption!

Amanda in America

I don't know why Daniel Maris calls democracy a 'natural' form of government. It is the rarest form of government, and as such seems rather unnatural given the usual human tendency to live under various forms of tyranny. Outside of democracy, enlightened and benevolent kingship is the best that humankind can hope for, and I'm afraid that this sort of rule is even rarer than forms of democracy. Philosopher-kingship is an elusive ideal because a) the mass of people wouldn't have the capacity to recognize the virtues of their would-be philosopher-king, and b) no true philosopher would want the job.

As for Judaism and Christianity: in the West you find a probably unrepeatable and certainly remarkable melding of two crucial factors: the respect for the law -- a reasoned law, as championed by Judaism; and a rendering unto Caesar what is his due -- a proto separation of church and state -- in Christianity, allied with the Christian openness to the non-legal-theological, i.e. to an encounter with true philosophy. This is why Christians were so willing to learn from the ancients, rather than burn them.

A combination of the rigour of disciplined Jewish thought and the open, exploratory nature of Christian thought led long ago to the possibility of a man-centered politics -- what we know broadly as liberalism -- long before liberalism was actually thought of. Liberalism has been many, many centuries in the making, as has the possibility of liberal democracy, though it was only after Machiavelli that such things started to take off.

Read Pierre Manent on the subject, if you're interested.

Lupus Lungfish

Dixon- I'v read your stuff over the past three months. I think you are either completely bonkers or addicted to something. I myself am unfortunately addicted to two drugs. The two obvious ones- the ones that really kill you!. Sailing and paragliding. Dixon, has that Jon Ryan been trying to infect your kernal?- its pathetic!- lightweight- try harder Jon.

Lupus Lungfish

Baron Pippin 3rd- going on the wagon tommorow- I can tell you are a lovely person friend!- Over and out.

Lungfish

Its a stupid and pointless war though- but actually quite good fun if your balls are young and you like a scrap. If you're an old mushroom soup drinking lefty muslim loving Guardian columnist reader who's bothered about spelling then its probably not for you. Its really quite simple, if you don't want to fight, don't join the British Army!- And I adore the British Army.

A. MacAulay

Amanda in America, as far as religious oriented or led societies go, please be fair and don't laud the christians and jews at the expense of the muslims. Amongst the things Mohammed got right was the definition of women's rights within the islamic society. Up to that point women didn't have any rights.

But let's put aside the illusion that theocracies of whatever religion benefit the majority of the ruled. Our civilisation, with all it's faults is born in the European Enlightenment, in commercial and industrial societies (see Lord Kames) with a literate population and our values today, where they are worth something, are not relicts of earlier superstitions with the dirt rubbed off, but are HUMANISTIC.

Just because Jihadis call us christians and crusaders doesn't make us that! It's just one more thing they haven't understood.

Baron

Amanda in America:

Have news for you: For the vast majority of the unwashed it ain’t democracy, or a kingship presided over by a philosopher, or even liberalism that matter in life, but things mundane that can be counted on the fingers of one hand: a steady job to bring in an income to provide sustenance, a kid or two (before enlightenment arrived in marriage, now in a ‘partnership’ of whatever gender or number), and the chance to raise pigeons, cultivate an allotment, and drink a pint or two here and there. And they would be right to think Manent to be a disease brought in by the immigrants.

Lupus, my expert friend of liquids, last night I killed a bottle of single malt Dalwhinnie (still feel it, you know) ignoring totally the stuff that’s doped with CO2. We all should do our bit to stop the earth overheating, I reckon.

Rhoda Klapp

Daniel Maris, our form of democracy, while it still existed, came from Scandinavia. It has nothing to do with Greek or Roman forms. As if the Romans ever managed it, or the Greeks but for a privileged few.

David Ossitt

A. MacAulay

“Amongst the things Mohammed got right was the definition of women's rights within the islamic (sic) society. Up to that point women didn't have any rights”

By the definition of women’s rights; do you include their right to be subservient to men; would you include their right to have their genitals mutilated, or their absolute right not to be educated, or even; their right to be the chattels of men?

Remind me; what were the other things that Mohammed got right.

phil

Lupus Lungfish
January 1st, 2010 2:33am stay on the wagon as you promised me -we need the good guys more every day ,bright of mind and filled with spirit:)

David Ossitt

Baron.

You spoilt your otherwise excellent post by including the following:-

“(before enlightenment arrived in marriage, now in a ‘partnership’ of whatever gender or number),”

This is not in any way enlightenment; this is the beginning of a new dark age for the human family.

C Cole

I read somewhere today that because the images produced by the new full-body scanners they're trialling in Manchester are pretty detailed, Muslim women have been able to opt out. So that should work well, as the alternative - of a pat down - is just as intrusive by their lights.

Something else that hasn't been explained is how the authorities are going to detect terrorists with explosives stuffed up their jacksy. Maybe they're planning to give anyone who's walking funny a full body cavity search. Can't wait for when they advertise that job in the Guardian...

Baron

A. MacAulay (or others who may help): you seem to know something about the third of the Abrahamic creed that’s making the running. Could you point me to what it is in the Koran that engenders such devotion to the cause and the anointed one? I got myself three different translations, and frankly, I couldn’t warm up to the narrative even if I were cremated with it. (This is a genuine question, no irony here).

phil

C Cole
January 1st, 2010 5:00pm -Is that really true? They will probably step up the searches on old Jewish grannies to make up for it ,not exactly renowned for blow(it up )jobs are they :)

Baron

David Ossitt @ 4.36:

That’s my command of English to blame; it was meant ironically, the word enlightenment should have been in inverted commas. I thought that the reference to ‘any gender and number’ made it obvious. In fact, in the original I penned ‘gender, number and species’ to contrast with the traditional marriage, but chickened out just before posting.

Noa Zrk

daniel maris
December 31st, 2009 7:51pm
"...Why are you associating Judaism and Christianity with democracy?.."
Because, for a variety of reasons, it evolved in and is virtually non-existent outside these societies.

Verity

Amanda in America writes regarding philosopher kingship: "b) no true philosopher would want the job."

Interesting that until moderately recently, the head of government of Thailand was always a monk who was appointed against his will. He governed well because all he wanted to do was get back to the monastery. I don't remember how many hundred years they had this programme, but it makes sense. The monk appointed wasn't greedy for power and just want to do his task, serve his term and get away.

Rhoda K - Interesting comment. The Icelandic Thingi was the first parliament in the world and, get this, it only sat around four times a year. In addition, if they thought they didn't have much to address in the upcoming session, they cancelled it.

A. MacAulay

Baron, those whom you appear to despise with their humble achievments are perfectly capable of distinguishing right from wrong, taking part in a jury and are integral to the "scandanavian" democracy as mentioned by Rhoda Klapp. Take a longer and closer look at the US where this trust in the common sense of the people is fundamental to the constitution.

David Ossit, Mohammed's codifying and defining of the social and economic relationship, and laws, moral or social, always reflect an economic relationship, between, "believers" was an improvement for that society. It was progress, then. The tension between islam and our secular, indusrtrial and commercial society is that Mohammed's system keeps them backward and poor.

Back to Baron, you're right the Koran reads as an impenetrable twaddle. Apparently it is highly poetical in the original. I found myself struggling 1/2 way through the first sura.

A. MacAulay

Baron, those whom you appear to despise with their humble achievments are perfectly capable of distinguishing right from wrong, taking part in a jury and are integral to the "scandanavian" democracy as mentioned by Rhoda Klapp. Take a longer and closer look at the US where this trust in the common sense of the people is fundamental to the constitution.

David Ossit, Mohammed's codifying and defining of the social and economic relationship, and laws, moral or social, always reflect an economic relationship, between, "believers" was an improvement for that society. It was progress, then. The tension between islam and our secular, indusrtrial and commercial society is that Mohammed's system keeps them backward and poor. Besides, my grandfather would have thought it was biologically impossible for a woman to drive a car and we,ve come a long way in short time too.

Back to Baron, you're right the Koran reads as an impenetrable twa++le. Apparently it is highly poetical in the original. I found myself struggling 1/2 way through the first sura.

phil

The verity writing here for sure is not the one I used to address as the fragrant one ,I do know one style from another and it is appalling that an identity can be taken like this ,whatever it is that she says .I had many disagreements with the first verity but she has a right to be known here for who she is and we have a right to disagree with her when appropriate .I never thought it would be me who defended verity,s rights but I will, and maybe even one day Arsenal will win the league ,miracles do and have happened :) they just did .

Dixon

Veroty says:
"Interesting that until moderately recently, the head of government of Thailand was always a monk who was appointed against his will. He governed well because all he wanted to do was get back to the monastery. I don't remember how many hundred years they had this programme, but it makes sense. The monk appointed wasn't greedy for power and just want to do his task, serve his term and get away."

A similar system was used in Imperial Venice. The Doge was chosen by an oligarchy and had no option out of the role, in which he was kept effectively a prisoner.

Such a system risks some very twisted motivation entering the leaders decision-making.

If anyone tried forcing me to be US president I would right away fire off half the nuclear weapons at my disposal and keep the other half for any survivirs.

Baron

A. MacAulay @ 7.56: I really have to master the language some more.

In no way do I think of, or feel contempt for either the aspirations or the achievements of the silent masses. On the contrary, I regard their contribution to any society as both commendable, invaluable, in fact absolutely essential. That was the point I was trying to make. I have no doubt either that they are more than capable distinguishing between right and wrong.

The likes of us spending hours pondering about the meaning of life more often than not adds bugger all to the wisdom of the world, whilst their, messing in sheds, plodding in the fields or whatever adds value, in small bits perhaps, but true value nevertheless, and regardless the colour or shape of the country’s governance.

A neighbour of mine in the village is a case in point. He cannot fathom the attraction of blogging, has never voted, but attends to his large allotment almost daily. I’m ashamed to say that I benefit from his spare time labour more than he from mine (if I can call my hitting the keyboard ‘labour’).

daniel maris

Noa Zrk quotes me:
"...Why are you associating Judaism and Christianity with democracy?.."

...and replies:

"Because, for a variety of reasons, it evolved in and is virtually non-existent outside these societies."

To which I answer:

(a) Evolution of democracy: Pagan Greece, Norse community in Iceland, various Native American societies.

(b) Contemporary non-Christian democratic countries:

India, Japan, Sir Lanka, Indonesia and Taiwan.

Total: around 1.5 billion people.

More importantly though you provide no texts from traditional Judaism or traditional Christianity arguing for democracy.

Whereas I can quote plenty of texts from Judaism and Christianity arguing against democracy or secular law.

Amanda In America

Well, from the comments addressed to me or responding to my post I can only say:

Baron: evidently a big-head unthinking ignoramus -- congratulations, sir, how does it feel?

And on the other hand Verity: present and correct. Hats off to you and happy new year, if you like.

C Cole

@phil

Here's the Guardian's take on the issue of passeger profiling (first par and link follow). It's a news story, not a comment piece, but it seems they are more concerned about 'discrimination' than the prospect of innocent people - of all backgrounds - being blown out of the sky. I don't often agree with Gordon Brown, but he is right to say this latest episode is a "wake-up call". Waking up in this context must surely mean allowing the security bods to do their jobs without having to bend the knee to the equality brigade. It's a faint hope, I know...

From the Guardian, Friday 1 January 2010:

The government could allow hi-tech security searches at British airports that focus on people who fit a particular profile, prompting fears that particular racial and religious groups will face increased scrutiny, it emerged today.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jan/01/racial-religious-groups-airport-checks

phil

Amanda In America
January 2nd, 2010 5:49am -Amanda ,a word of caution if I may ,be careful who you applaud here ,it may well come back to haunt you ,the lady you think is wonderful certainly does not tread your path and I think you have got the baron wrong -I suggest you read again the various contributions on other threads and you may see what I mean -happy new year .

phil

C Cole many thanks for your help -I see that The director of Liberty, Shami Chakrabarti has as usual had something to say on this subject and as so often inane but always self ingratiating .There is one incontrovertible fact which we all are aware of and we would have to be rather stupid to have missed it -the perpetrators of these atrocities are almost always Muslims ,although I do not believe true Muslims would wish to be associated with them .Profiling has been done for years by the Israelis albeit they have a lesser number to check ,nevertheless my late granny would hardly have taken long to be profiled ,nor a grey haired vicar .Happy new year and a safe one .

Dixon

"C Cole
January 1st, 2010 5:00pm
I read somewhere today that because the images produced by the new full-body scanners they're trialling in Manchester are pretty detailed, Muslim women have been able to opt out. So that should work well, as the alternative - of a pat down - is just as intrusive by their lights."

THIS, from the Observer, 25th April 2004:
"Muslim women exempt from ID card photos

Thousands of Muslim women will be exempted from having to show their faces on identity cards as the Government moves to allay fears among British Muslims that the new cards will be used to target them in the 'war on terror'.
... officials made it clear that if Muslim women do not want to reveal their faces in public, that would be respected.
Instead of a photograph, there would be an exemption for certain people, who would only have to give fingerprint and iris-recognition data.
... Home Office sources made it clear that they backed the idea.
'We have had constructive discussions with the Muslim community and want to assure them we are sensitive to their points of view,' The Home Secretary moved after representations from the Muslim Council of Britain (MCB)."

So I think its pretty clear that Muslim women will never be required to pass through the body-imaging scanners.

Its all a ridiculous farce.

Ed P

This New Year, new decade, etc., would be a good time to improve our labels for these maniacs. Just as it would have been daft to describe incidents during the Troubles as, for example,"another Christian atrocity..", so labelling all the Shiites, Sunnis and (the great majority) peaceful Muslims as "Muslims" is equally facile. Understanding the various factions and reporting them accurately can only help with improving public knowledge and therefore security.

Dixon

"Ed P
January 2nd, 2010 1:39pm
This New Year, new decade, etc., would be a good time to improve our labels for these maniacs. Just as it would have been daft to describe incidents during the Troubles as, for example,"another Christian atrocity..", so labelling all the Shiites, Sunnis and (the great majority) peaceful Muslims as "Muslims" is equally facile. Understanding the various factions and reporting them accurately can only help with improving public knowledge and therefore security."

Unfortunately, that would only help the extremists by supporting their claim of "takfir" ( in which argument they assert that non-extremist Muslims are not really Muslims ).

David Ossitt

Dixon.

“So I think it’s pretty clear that Muslim women will never be required to pass through the body-imaging scanners”

Nor will Muslim men who dress as women to escape detection; as did the Somalian Mustaf Jama one of the murderers of PC Sharon Beshenivsky, it was he that fled the country by wearing a niqab whilst using a stolen passport.

Much has been written on these blogs about the need for profiling; profiling alone will not work, we must stop pandering to those who wish to wear masks in public places, because that is what the niqab and burqa are they mask the face.

Anyone who is excused the body scan or who wears a mask should not be allowed to travel.

Noa Zrk

Daniel Maris.
You rebuke me for not providing a more comprehensive refutation of your challenge. In my defence I refer to the extended holiday celebrations, my associated indulgences in the great British Liddle and Lungfish tradition and a disinclination to enter a debate on what seems to me at least, to be obvious.
Are you seriously arguing that Judaism and Christianity don’t have anything to do with modern democracy? It’s an interesting if somewhat mad proposition, but one that I believe ultimately fails because the cultural and philosophical mores of western society are inextricably linked with our concepts of freedom, democracy and universal suffrage.
The innate conservatism of organised religion and its use as a tool to manipulate and control the masses, has always been in tension and conflict with its underlying value and message that the values most commonly assigned to the Judeo-Christian tradition are liberty, where all humans are created equal, and equality, where the Israelites flee tyranny to freedom.
To the view that religion is separate from politics, “…Render unto Caesar…etc” must be added a continuing Aristotelian tradition of rigourous intellectual independence in challenging the status quo.
An excellent example, and one against the orthodox theology of the times, up until the doctrinal changes initiated by Pope Leo X111, would be the English Catholic struggle for both secular and religious rights, against consistent Protestant persecution following the reformation; a struggle which of course continues to this day.
This tradition was almost entirely absent in Eastern religions the religions of Hinduism, Buddhism, Confucianism and Islam. This is no longer the case, as with the Western democracies, in addition to the benign intellectual legacy of imperial empires, (the democracies which you cite, excluding the post WWII imposed re-constructions), mass industrialisation and development, education and communications have revolutionised the traditional beliefs of these societies. Fundamentalist Islam, seen in this context, is an abnormal and abhorrent conservative reaction to the inevitable development of human intellectual independence.

wrinkled weasel

Rod, have you had some kind of Damascus Road experience?

smog

So one-hundred-and-forty-five posts later does anyone really have a clue what to do next?

Install better scanners?

Profile for sweaty-looking perps?

Send in the peace corps to Yemen singing 'democracy is the way'?

You can be sure of one thing though - by the time a flat-footed and demoralized West has navigated the countless committees, the reams of Human Rights legislation (this only applies to alleged terrorists, not potential victims), the stultifying and miasmically proliferating confusions, the Holy Warriors will have scored a few more hits, some more successful than others.

hadrian

...and yet another aherent of the religion of peace and mercy seeks to demonstrate his faith's great verities by attempting to murder the Danish cartoonist who had the audacity to scoff at Mohammed. The BBC reports blanked out the cartoon as it was shown haning on the man's wall!! Talk about craven. Maybe we Christians should threaten to bomb them the next time they dare blaspheme the name of Christ. Of course, I forgot- if it's Islam that inspires such murderous rage that's ok by our 'liberals' but if another faith/ideology inspired it, there'd be no end of condemnation. Pathetic. The Swiss had it so right.

Dixon

Recruit a ten million man Love Korps to go and each hug a Jihadist.

Very tightly.

A. MacAulay

Baron, of course I do not believe for a minute that you really despise anyone, apart from some notorious examples we would probably agree on. Tony Blair for example. And engaging in debate and the forming of opinion are central to a thriving democracy. The less the political establishment seems able to digest ideas that do not conform to party dogma, the more important it is to be honestly provocative.

It may be, Noa Zrk that our civilisation is strongly influenced by our "Christian" past. After all there's all those churches around. But our rights and obligations, our liberty we have despite this past. All these religions are hierarchical, with God up top and a King, prophet or whatever letting us know how to live and how much to pay for it. Since we have a constitutional monarchy, we also have a constitutional God, which is just fine for us. A problem for his bumblehood the Archbishop, though.

Strengthening or reviving "christianity" will not save us from a so called "Islamic" threat, but strengtheing our liberties and culture will.

Noa Zrk

A. MacAulay

You miss my point.

I did not say that strengthening or reviving Christianity would save us from any Islamic threat.
Our existing western intellectual and cultural democratic values are firmly and inextricably derived from an Aristotelian, sceptical, questioning, reasoning Judaeo-Christian base; which derived from and adapted pre-Christian and external philosophical beliefs. This is in contrast to the base pre-destinative belief of Islam or Hinduism.
As has been pointed out the resulting modern western democratic construct has been exported, in various models and with varying degrees of success, to much of the rest of the world.
Is all Christianity hierarchical? Surely the essential element of the Reformation was to remove the interposition of Churches between man and God?
By the way I have no idea what a Constitutional God is, can you explain this?

Dixon

Looks like the Iranian govt Cyber-Gaurds have stormed Melanies Iran blog and deleted all the comments posted ince 1st January!

You never know who's reading!

Noa Zrk

Dixon @ 10:40pm

We already have this corps established.
The storm troops of the EHRC can be deployed forthwith to deal with the entire politically incorrect jihadist threat.
They may not yet be using the full quota of experienced older women to younger more impressionable and attractive men required by Harridan but at least Trevor Phillips cannot be displeased by the deployment of a black Nigerian. That must help someones quota, surely? I am distressed though by the lack of opportunities identified for the range of skills that the disabilities lobby can offer. Surely the non profiled searching of false hands and wheel chairs must stop forthwith lest real opportunities be denied the less physically advantaged bomber?

Dixon

Now the comments have been restored! Must be divine intervention.

Proves what I said. You never know whose reading!

Amanda in America

Noa Zrk: Whatever MacAulay meant, a 'constitutional god' makes sense to me. It also goes by the name of 'Nature's God', the god of the American Declaration of Independence (written by Thomas Jefferson, who notably did not say 'the God of the Christian Bible' or 'the God of the Old Testament' or anything of that kind).

It's the sort of god that a liberal-democratic society can get along with. It's not a god of The Law and therefore allows us to make our own laws as we see fit, within certain limits or even precepts. These precepts, as you already suspect, come to us from our Judaeo-Christian heritage. So yes, there's a sort of contradiction there. But also a liberation. This is why liberal democracy, a brave new world for the mass of people but with the fading sun of aristocracy still shining slant-wise on them, is not only a rare regime but one with a lifespan. It's not forever. Eventually the 'real' god behind the 'constitutional god' will be forgotten, as will the Enlightenment of the real aristocrats we've left behind. And then we shall be in the Twilight of the Gods, of all kinds.

Amanda in America

One final comment from me, if you can stand it.

I read again Baron's response.

Ignoring the fact that our posts are ships passing in the night -- I wasn't commenting on what the masses feel is important, I was commenting on the nature of regimes -- I'll give my own answer.

Of course your non-philosophic citizen (which is most of them) is most concerned with his bread and butter and loved ones (this is known as 'love of one's own'). But that is beside the point.

He (she if you like) can choose between feeling the love of one's own in a vicious regime, where the Norman lord strings you up because his tooth aches and he's in a bad mood, or a decent regime, where the rulers are accountable to the people and your right to pursue the love of your own is protected in myriad ways.

In short, you can love liberty and respect it, and inform yourself about it, and be willing to fight for it, in which case you may be lucky enough to have government of the people, by the people, for the people.

Or you can be an indolent pleb who cares nothing for freedom or its supports, in which case you will have tyranny and its myriad miseries.

Most people in history have ended up with the latter.

Nicholas Hallam

Mockery does serve a purpose in raising infidel morale, but it would be foolish to take the whole islamist threat as a joke.

Greg D

'If Armageddon really is coming and we are headed towards the final prophesied conflagration, whose side would you rather be on? The side represented by the Palestinian Authority, the Sudanese government, Abdul, Richard and those doctors – or the Israeli army?'

Interesting questions, Rod.

You suggest that there are only TWO sides represented in this hypothetical conflict: the doctors, the PA, Khartoum, et al; in short, Muslims of all stripes (the PA is is an interim administrative body established in accordance with the Gaza-Jericho Agreement after the Oslo Accords to assume the responsibilities of the Israeli military administration in populated Palestinian centers in the West Bank and Gaza Strip until final status negotiations with Israel are concluded). The other side is represented by the Israeli army. Now last time I checked, Israel was by definition the Jewish state.

You messed up your lines, Rod! REMEMBER: al-Qa’eda is attacking the West because of its freedoms, not because of its support of Israel’s rightful actions a propos Palestine!

And you know what? In times of trouble, I’d prefer to rely on the US or British armies for protection, thanks. Why wouldn’t you? Are you counting on a Middle-East war anytime soon, Rod?

Noa Zrk

Amanda in America
January 4th, 2010 5:26am
An interesting perspective.
I doubt though that the average Islamic jihadist is prepared yet to take the long view and just accept the liberal democratic model. The role of Allah being more dynamic and proactive as they rather take the avenging Being, Old Testament fire and brimstone approach to Him.
No doubt this rough, untutored approach will be corrected in the long term, just as communism was. But Karl Marx's ideas instigated a hundred years of turmoil,so an Islamic 'Twilight of the Gods' may be some time away.
In the meantime of course, underpants and explosives, along with other relevant products of western democracy, will continue to be pressed into the service of those who prefer their god to be omniscient rather than constitutional.

phil

Amanda in America
January 4th, 2010 5:51am You ply the same lonely road as me -You pour out your heart and use your brain ,show compassion for all human beings, and then as usual here you are ignored ,at least by most who only wish to see what they have written themselves ,Nasty left wing emissions abound and they are responded to ,but thoughts like you have just fade into the background .I am beginning to realise it is all pretty pointless .Jackie Mason once said "talk to yourself ,you will be dealing with a better class of person and no arguments will ensue " ---Happy new year at least I agree with you .

patricia

Why are you smearing the Palestinian Authority with this?

Or are you just acknowledging what most others do that Israeli injustice to the Palestinians is often a driving force for revenge attacks such as this?

Noa Zrk

Amanda in America
January 1st, 2010 12:33am
I only just noticed this reply to Daniel Maris original question. It covered the main points and I wouldn't have bothered replying in detail to him if I'd seen it; not least because I think we share similar, though by no means identical views on the matter.
So, my belated thanks on this.

C Cole

Dixon, cheers for that. Nothing like a bit of context.

The whole thing (airport security) is, as you rightly say, a ridiculous farce. Which raises the question of which politician of those seeking election this year has the cojones needed to do something about it. (I wanted to say Boris, but of course he is not seeking election this year. Can't help but think that were he Tory leader the new "serious" Boris would be doing rather better in the polls than Dave is.)

I was hoping to have heard something from Rod by now on the issue of the proposed Wootton Bassett march by Islam4UK. He always sticks up for freedom of expression, and I have to say that it might help focus a few minds if they were allowed to hold their march. Our political class is so craven that it dare not discriminate against these people, even in the face of what is appears to be a provocative, hate-filled publicity stunt.

Having said that, judging by his open letter at least Mr Choudary seems to have a clear idea of why our troops are actually in Afghanistan, which is more than can be said for some. Enough for now.

Amanda in America

Noa Zrk: But I was commenting on us, not the Arabs. I was talking about our twilight, not theirs. Theirs has already come, a long time ago.

Amanda in America

Hello Phil, what a dear you are. It was your earlier comment that prompted me to re-read Baron. Not that I thought I'd got him wrong but re-reading often gives one new thoughts. And it's true that sometimes one reads in a hurry and misses things.

Do you post here much? (LOL sounds like 'do you come here often?') Only I'm not familiar with your output. I've been not putting out but certainly outputting on Delingpole's blog over at the Telegraph: why are blogs so compelling? I suppose one could say that it's a chance to participate more directly in democracy: the blog is like an agora and we are all gathered there in our togas, debating. (Some of us also having sipped at the libations!) Plus it's a chance to be have a laugh with strangers who, in a real way, are friends.

I wrote a response on this thread about equal protection and how those that would exempt themselves from laws designed to protect everybody -- the non-murderous, that is -- should thereby exempt themselves also from travel, if complying is too much for them, but the Internet failed and I lost my post. But I think everyone here understands that point, so no big loss.

See you around, and happy new year!

William Neville David Andrews

The Western Countries despite all the wrongs of history are expected to prop up & support the poorer countries idiots who set to kill & maime hardly encourage food & other aid which the majority seems to come from the U.S.See the bags of grain being unloaded in Somalia, Ethiopia,Kenya in fact anywhere where there is poverty & drout . I know most western countries give too but the US usually leads the way.

Colin Foster

Baron
December 27th, 2009 8:40pm

GetEven @ 5.28:

"The tools of getting to the promised land that the extremists are opting for may not appeal to all of the same persuasion, but the vision does."

Albeit burnt tools

Dixon

C.Cole: Chuddery says 500 people! I dont believe he could muster 50. His demos usually have a couple of dozen. I dont believe h seriously plans to do it at all. He just correctly asessed that merely proposing it ( and telling all the media, as he must have, given that he has not applied for permission and therefore they wouls otherwise not have known ) would be guarranteed to get him national publicity. Lets face it, we seldomn see him on TV nowadays. Ignore him completely and he may disappear altogether. But, hey, our lovely media love a jihadist. so theres his national free advertisement for the mere ask of!

phil

Amanda in America
January 5th, 2010 3:38am -Hi Amanda -yes I do write a lot too much for some I am sure :).I do have a reason though -We live in a democracy TG and I believe we get the society we deserve ,so if we do not make a contribution suggesting what we think is right we deserve exactly what we get -These columns fascinate me as much for being ignored, probably for the desperate desire for some to see their name in print rather than digest another,s opinion. I enjoy the banter too to be honest and Wilhelm has been on the sharp end of it quite often ,but he is developing a better sense of humour ,maybe from getting some Jackie Mason down his ear :)-
-------------
I think the world of Just Louise and Kate A ,common sense decency and compassion from them its not a bad mixture and Adam B (my pal Don Quixote)who will never change the baddies ,but never gives them a yard .TT and Trumpeldor and many others influence my thinking and I appreciate it ,you keep coming you are a star .

Baron

Am snowed up in the mountainous regions of Eastern Europe: awesome, uplifting, but bloody cold. Where’s the promised global warming when one needs it, I’d like to know. The wi-fi connection her works only intermittently, if at all. I miss the heat of your observations, don’t let go, the lot of you.

Greg D

Be careful, Amanda in America - that one bites.

Has anyone read An End to Evil, by the by?

A. MacAulay

Noa Zrk, I am sorry I could not respond to your constitutional God question immediately. Having made it up as I went along, I take the excuse of having other things to do, in order to find the time to ask myself what I might have meant.

Firstly, this has nothing to do with the existence or not of God. This is not relevant here.

A constitutional God is that metaphysical instance or authority called upon by a political hierarch(y) which places the legitimisation of the entitlement to power beyond a worldly, temporal judgement.

Think of the Stuarts. The more political power has been taken over by the people through parliament, the more this legitimising God (as a very human and partial understanding of what such a God might be) recedes into form, custom and ceremony.

Baron

Will this unleash Amanda some more?

We all need, whether we admit it or not, faith, a capacity that takes us beyond the rational. The undisputable advantage of the faith in God, and the tenets of the Judeo-Christian religion derived from it (in the latter stages, after errors and stuff) was its ability to reign in ‘our appetites and wishes’ in E. Burke’s terminology. The replacement of it with the policeman didn’t do any good. One can shoot the latter.

The headache with Islam issues not from its religious component but the absence of a centralised guidance to its followers, and above all its insistence to meddle in things secular, e.g. societal governance.

I’m but a deadly opponent of the creed of global warming except for one of its elements. If we could figure how to replace fossil fuels we would, at a stroke, undermine the financial base of the countries that worship Allah. I reckon that would do the trick. Or am I a true barbarian, ha?

Baron

And another thing:

Greg D: tell us more about the ‘An End to Evil’ please. I thought of acquiring a copy, but the rating on Amazon put me off. Also, Mark Steyn ain’t that keen on David Frum.

Daisy T

Rod are you really that thick

Did you go to Uni.

Worst crap ever written.

You are fool

David Ossitt

Daisy T

“Rod are you really that thick
Did you go to Uni.
Worst crap ever written.
You are fool”

How nice; how charming, how ladylike, you are a thoroughly nasty piece of work.

There is nobody here; wants to read your badly written diatribe, please go away.

Verity

To those bringing up points about the new airport scanners, as far as I can see, they're already dead in the water before they're even installed.

The second Nigerian jerk, who concealed a bomb in his arsehole (which they're now, oddly enough, denying, but that is what was reported on the plane) has now highlit that the new photographic scanners can't photograph body cavities.

So, if we have bints in burqas excused, and men disguised as bints in burqas because who is going to be bold enough to demand that someone they suspect is a man but may not be)remove his/her burqa?

Now, today, it has been announced that the scanners violate child pornography laws.

So, given the above, does anyone think the millions spent on these intrusive devices was well spent? Or that, in fact, they will ever be used? Muslim terrorists are perfectly capable of having children carry bombs through Security.

What a load of BS, when all you have to do is refuse to sell air tickets to Muslims, who should have their own airlines to fly on.

Muslim flights to the US could land in Cuba (Cuba needs the dollars) and there should be a ferry service from Cuba to Alligator Swamp in Florida, where they should disembark and make their own way to Detroit. I'm sure any American driving along any highway wouldn't hit the gas, simultaneously hitting his cellular keypad for the sheriff's department when he saw them.

David Ossitt

Verity 6.35pm.

“So, if we have bints in burqas excused, and men disguised as bints in burqas because who is going to be bold enough to demand that someone they suspect is a man but may not be)remove his/her burqa?”

Verity has a very good point; I have been thinking about this for a long time and I have come to the conclusion that the solution to this problem, would be for each of us, whenever we come across some one wearing a full body “mask” to complain.

The complaint would be that you feel threatened, that this wraith this spectre offends your sensibilities, that it causes you to be afraid, if it is in the street, complain in a loud voice to those all about you, if in a public building to someone in authority, if at the airport, to everybody else, the powers that be, must know, must realise that these body masks offend the great majority.

C Cole

@Dixon

In the Mail, Richard Littlejohn suggests that Choudary might well be an MI5 plant aimed at discrediting militant Islam in this country. It's an intriguing thought. I liked all the stuff in the papers about Choudary being known as "Andy" at university, when, by all accounts, he behaved like a typical student in the matter of birding and boozing.

In matters of free speech, I tend to go with the argument that sunlight is the best disinfectant. So my instinct would be to let Islam4UK hold its rally. It's time the public at large got to hear about the vision these people have for this country.

Having said that, the appearance of Nick Griffin on Question Time recently was an interesting case in point as he refrained from saying anything especially controversial (though he did offer a number of legitimate criticisms of Islam). I think Choudary and his friends can be relied on not to hide their light under a bushel. Of course, as you point out, they're not exactly lacking in the publicity department at the moment.

Greg D

Baron - David Frum? No, No, I was talking of An End to Evil: Reishis Goyim Amalek! But now that you mention it, isn't it fascinating that the two titles coincide?

Amanda in America

Baron,

Thanks for the compliment about 'unleashing', but what makes you think I'm not on your side?

Interesting how a few people have warned me about others, as if the Spectator were a nest of adders (yes, I said adders instead of vipers just to be different). Interesting that no one yet wants to feed to me to one of them....

phil

David Ossitt
January 6th, 2010 7:27pm -DAVID I have to say that I am surprised that you go along with the remarks of a woman whose right to use her name I defended last week ,when it was usurped by another ,of course the gracious lady never acknowledged it ,but that was not unexpected as I have become used to her style .She has now the unfettered ability to make the most outrageous racist outbursts ,which you can see on the coffee house wall .
-------------
Like you I do not like the advantages taken by some wearers of burkhas and other ways of hiding their faces ,in fact I can foresee the hoodies forsaking their attire to to use them :).You have always given the impression of a caring and decent man so I wonder whether you have understood the attack that this woman is making not only on villains but on our ordinary law abiding citizens because of their ethnicity.The post she has made here is mild compared to what she wrote on the wall ,that in fact reflected Powells racist speech, but much worse,.if this continues I have to wonder what hope we can have of ever integrating those of the immigrant communities who wish to make a contribution .My family originally were immigrants and we have made significant contributions in many fields for the benefit of a nation that we love . I do not expect to be told to "bugger off" by people like her .

David Ossitt

Phil
January 7th, 2010 1:03pm

I can not think; why you should be surprised, that I have agreed with a post from that excellent lady, Verity.

She is; in my opinion, one of the most astute, intelligent and knowledgeable of those who post on these blogs.

I find; that I invariably agree with the opinions that she expresses on these Spectator Blogs, not all, but a great many of them.

I do not find anything she writes to be racist; on the contrary, I find it very refreshing that she does not pull her punches, and that she is always totally frank and honest in pointing out the flaws and faults inherent in multiculturalism, and in her warnings of the real and present dangers of unfettered immigration.

phil

David Ossitt
January 7th, 2010 4:11pm .We are all fallible David, and obviously I have misjudged you -if you cannot see what she wrote on the "wall" was racist then our minds will never converge ,you state on the wall that you ,having reread,my previous posts,found some were odd ,well I suppose they would be if your mind goes the way you are telling me .I do seem to remember you agreeing with me though -odd no ?so rest easy David ,enjoy your life we will have to agree to differ

Baron

Amanda @ 4.55: by ‘unleash’ I didn’t mean anything negative, merely a gentle kick soliciting another contribution from you. I rather enjoy what you say, your knowledge and style of reasoning are quite impressive. I also have a feeling that we bat for the same team albeit at different spots on the field.

Peace.

Baron

Greg D @ 12.40: the title you mention is worth reading. Right?

If I fail to reply at once it's because I have poor connection to the Net. Mountains and snow, you know.

Greg D

phil, January 7th, 2010 1:03pm

My, my, old buddy, you're spot on. I wrote about that on Melanie's post re: Al-Qa'eda relocating to Africa. Check it out, olive.

Listen for the echoes, Baron.

phil

Greg D
January 7th, 2010 7:18pm which thread :?-we do not often agree so it must be worth looking at :)but thanks anyway -I am shocked not to have many supporters after the racist outburst, I thought I was here amongst liberal and elegant people ,seems I am not as perceptive as I thought .

Greg D

phil

see my post January 4th, 2010 12:05pm, it goes for the stance of this magazine on this entire issue

http://www.spectator.co.uk/essays/all/5672166/alqaeda-has-relocated-to-africa.thtml

regards

revolution

Would it be a good idea if Obama spoke out saying to these crazy bastards that there are no virgins waiting for you?

revolution

These rectum bombs could prove very dangerous for Muslim cottagers?

Amanda in America

Message for Baron, trying again.

Baron:

Peace and Long Life
(imagine Spock's split-handed salute)

Baron Pippin II

Amanda: agreed, and abit of money wouldn’t come amiss either.

Derek

The point is that these attempts provoke an uttely pointless over-reaction in the airport industry and government, bring us ever more joyless times waiting at airport security for no benefit to anyone except the security staff - at least they have a job.
If airport security ever found anything we would have been told, if for no other reason than to jsutify the inconvenience.
So, in the end, the would-be terrorists win. This must have been what it was like when the Roman Empire was gicing way to Christianity and the Dark Ages: We've lost any ability to fight this and we're on the way out, technology and all.

trosty

..HELLO, how about an honourable mention & shout for Mr.Schuringa. By the sounds of it, if it hadn't been for his heroic deeds - not words- the story may have had an entirely different ending.
Give the Little Lion Man his rightfull dues.