Bang Up the Pope

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Roy, your choice of words does not serve The Spectator well. Rather than being a Lotus Eater, I suggest you are pronouncing at the level of Mark Oaten.

Sir Graphus

Diplomatic immunity, I imagine.

Fake Blood

Diplomatic immunity, innit? That and insane hypocrisy.

Harry Paget Flashman

Don't bet on his collar being felt, Labour are pandering to the valuable RC vote in inviting this ridiculous man to Britain at our expense, especially in Scotland where you don't get to become a Labour MP unless you're a catholic (and season ticket holder at Celtic Park so watch what you say or you'll have that lot invading this blog again) so there'll be no lifting of the 'Holy Papa' as for some reason, bigotry is indeed allowed in this country but only as long as you're a catholic bigot.

jon ryan

Not just gays he's against, is it?

Isn't there some sort of law in the UK now that magnanimously allows women to be equal? And unless I'm wrong (possibly deceived by the frock he wears) the pope is a bloke?

If religions want to play a part in mainstream politics, why should they demand a different set of laws?

And, slightly differnt subject, why doesn't Rowan Williams offer a place in the Anglican communion to RCs who are tired of being among homophobic mysoginists? The pope is offering sanctuary to the queer-bashing woman haters (and why does that sound familiar?), so why not a few swaps?

Captain Blackbeard

Ahh, a warm welcome to the atheist trolls. How busy you must be trawling the internet for any mention of religion so that you can share your views. Of course you must always be allowed to share your views. It is those who have a Christian faith who must be silenced.

Anti-faith bigotry is obviously alive and well.

C Powell

The question you should be asking, Rod, is why anyone should be interviewed (let alone arrested) for their views on anything?

People can think whatever they want, can say whatever they want provided they do not incite violence.

What we have now is the ridiculous and dangerous situation where the criminal law is invoked merely because someone is offended or might be offended. Truly illiberal and authoritarian.

rod liddle

I think you're missing the point, Blackbeard old chap.

Ben

Oi, you bigots. Just because you're missing Theo Hobson doesn't mean you can come and annoy Liddle's blog.Even if he is a bit biased himself.

Occasional Ostrich

At least it's not hereditary;-)

MikeF

I wish you would stop spattering the word 'bigot' about like this Rod. As I have tried to explain to you before the word is one of the strongest terms in the English language and it should be used with restraint on the basis of a precise definition. It really should denote actions or words that seek to deny other people the right to free expression of their own beliefs not just actions or words that offend left-liberal sentiments. That is what I expect to find in the Spectator - precision and definitionm. If I wanted to see the English language debased into a form of lazy and self-referential sloganising I would read The Guardian or The Indepen...Oh maybe I'm wasting my time.

rod liddle

Mr Powell - yes, that was sort of my point. Or one of them.

John Lea

Harry Paget Flashman - well done, your comment is the most idiotic piece of balls I have read in a long, long time. It could almost be sketch show material, if it wasn't for the worrying idea that I think you might be serious. Stick to moronic and bile-ridden generalities, mate, because you're clearly not mature enough to engage in a grown-up debate.

Austin Barry

Quite how the Pope can rail against homosexuality when the priesthood is the gayest cadre outside of a Rufus Wainwright concert is beyond me.

Also, with respect to Catholic clerics surely the phrase "allo allo allo - what have we got here, then.." from the Dock Green era has long since been superceded by D.I Jack Regan's immortal "Get your trousers on, you're nicked."

Noa Zrk

Yes, bang all the religioud nutters up in Parkhurst or Dartmoor or whatever. That should clear the churches, synagogues and mosques for regional re-development schemes and they could do some equality re-training whist they're doing their bird.
At the very least, if he's allowed into the country, and Geart Wilders was barred for less, the Pope should be made to go stand in the naughty corner at Heathrow for an hour, holding a plastic cup to the wall with his nose.
That'll teach him to be disrespectful about the national sport of buggery and him dressing like that too, all those reds and gowns!
Who needs waterboarding eh?
Assuming of course that his human rights aren't affected.
But we have to give a gold star and a smiley face to Archbishop Fungus for telling us all that we have to be gay, or the CofE will split, or go into schism or whatever.
As to forcing us all to love one another in an inclusive and non-judgmental manner. The immortal words of Blackadder seem to fit;_
"Not while I have my breath about me".

Ian C

Just send in Peter Tatchell and let him compare dealing with the Pope's protectors and Mugabe's.

Then we might start talking about things that matter. Buggery is a private action that should have no oxygen in the public space.

Wilhelm

What the aggressive militant atheist fails to grasp and they do fail to grasp is, if you get rid of Christianity which Europe is built on there will be a power vacumn and guess who's going to fill that vacumm, yup you guessed it, islam.

The twittering, twitfest of twittery that is Dicky Dorkins who's always on Channel 4 selling his books like a hooker always slags of Christianity never islam, funny that isnt it ?

Anyway Dicky believes that the universe, you know the whole shabang came out of thin air, bit like a rabbit out of a top hat, and there was no '' higher authority '' who was behind it. Go figure.

Dorkins can gush about his atheism till the cows comes home but why does he snobbishly look down on those who are Christian ? Its a belief system, you either believe it or not.

radgie gadgie

I dont think that Il Papa should be banged up or even arrested seeing as 'Sir' Iqbal wasnt. Calling it a 'moral evil' isnt quite the same as 'the Muslims' calling for their death now in rather painful ways as the Koran does and the New Testament doesn't. Anyways, Mr Seacole, I think you've laid on enough equivalence lately to satisfy both the muslims (so they're less likely to butcher you in the street) and to get a punt at the Indy job. I hope you dont get it by the way - I prefer to read you in the Speccy and here. Unless, of course, you sign up Mark Steyn for the Indy.

EyeSee

Yes, it is a nice opportunity for you to rehearse again your point that PC ends up arguing with itself. Allow homosexuality and religious views that wish it not-allowed. I can't help thinking though, that gays must be glad their parents weren't.

Fergus Pickering

I'm sure the gay rights people would organize mass public buggery given half a chance. It could be the Olympic sport where our public schools could put us among the medals

Noa Zrk

Austin Barry
"Quite how the Pope can rail against homosexuality when the priesthood is the gayest cadre outside of a Rufus Wainwright concert is beyond me".
Can you direct me to any comparative homosexual or paedeophile practices data for Catholic, Coptic, Orthodox, Anglican priests,Buddist monks, shamansoh yes, and Mohammedan Imams?
Further comparative data in respect of aethiests and agnostics would also inform a more objective debate on the relationship between a belief in God and the practise of buggery.

Mrs Mugabe

Rod, bowling from the gasworks end is considered a sin to most religious people. The Pope is the head of the largest christian body of people in the world, what the hell do you expect him to say?

Dexter

Wonder what odds I would get at the bookies on Peter Tatchell having a go? Has to be worth an each-way at least?

Peter Crawford

@Wilhelm

Atheism is not a "belief system". It is an absence of belief. Please get this into your skull.

I don't believe as the Pope does that there is a divine creator who made us in his image. I don't believe as Hindus do that the world is a disc carried through the cosmos on a giant turtle. I don't believe in Thor. I don't believe in Zeus.

I am an atheist. I don't have a "belief system". Jesus wept.

David Ossitt

“You might argue, of course, that we should be a bit more circumspect when dreaming up legislation designed to force us all to love one another in an inclusive and non-judgmental manner.”

“But we are where we are”

Sorry Rod; that is not good enough; we are, where we have been forced to be, by all of the nasty; mean spirited legislation that has been forced down our throats, the utterly criminally insane laws, on, human rights, equality and diversity, health and safety.

Laws that insist, that we are not only kind to homosexuals but insist that we must actively encourage them, to indulge all of their desires, laws requiring us to give up our seats on public transport to transsexuals, that ask us to kowtow to a particular cruel and brutal faith, and insist that we mock the C of E and the House of Windsor.

It is high time we manned the barricades.

Old Slaughter

Went on the Speccie website to see a picture of Rod Liddle and the headline "Bang Up the Pope".

I am laughing already.

Good point well made Rod. Maintain the form.

Wilhelm

Peter Lawford shrieeeks

'' Im an atheist, damn it, I have an absence of belief .''

Atheism is a belief system that there is no God.

So there !

David Ossitt

Peter Crawford

“I don't believe as Hindus do that the world is a disc carried through the cosmos on a giant turtle.”

I am sure; the that Terry Pratchett the author, he, who dreamed up the giant turtle and the Disc World that it supports, and, who has now written thirty seven highly entertaining books on the subject, will be delighted to hear that the Hindus, have forsaken all of their traditional gods, so as to be able to worship his giant turtle.

jon ryan

David Ossitt:

I think thre Hindus came up with the idea of a World Turtle a couple of thousand years before Discword was created by the God Terry Pratchett.

(Pratchett is more belivable, though):
In Hindu mythology the world is thought to rest on the backs of four elephants, who stand on the shell of a turtle. In Hinduism, Akupara is a tortoise who carries the world on his back. It upholds the Earth and the sea. One avatar of Vishnu is said to be the giant turtle Kurma. The Sri Kurmam Temple in Andhra Pradesh, India is dedicated to the Kurma-avatar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cultural_depictions_of_turtles_and_tortoises

wrinkled weasel

Is it just me, or does anybody else think you are a doppelganger for Elliot Morley?

Dog Snob

I get it Rodders. Had me going for a second. An unfortunate vehicle for your argument though, what with all that red mist hissing all over your art.

David Lindsay

Arrested by whom? Peter Tatchell, star turn of the anti-Pope demonstrations, and advocate of a lowering of the age of consent to 14, a lowering which would legalise almost all of the acts that have brought scandal on the Church, a theme in any case now as stale and sterile as priests fathering children became in the Nineties?

john steadman

Good entertainment, people - at least those of you whose esoteric allusions or obscure expression didn't impede my understanding. Seems to me our host was simply pointing to the absurdity of trying to legislate to please every taste with the inevitable outcome of crass contradiction and confusion - but most imortantly, the violation of our rights to freedom of expression.
As for the religious belief and assertive homosexuality, a plague on both your houses.

paulg

I was shocked i thought your call to.... bang up the pope was an obscure metaphor used by homosexuals. Thankfully, you only want the man, who is eighty after all, to be incarcerated!! your a wag Rod

Tilak

Leave our 'Papa' alone. He doesn't really practise what he supposedly preaches, harbouring within his fold the largest number of gay men in the world. However, his flock should understand the need to respect the age of consent and of course consent itself before commencing a discreet grope.

Mercian

I hope they try.

It will be interesting to see who 5 million Catholics then switch their vote too.

Labour would not get a single one.

Horatio Yellowbeard

".... leaflets suggesting that queers would bum in hell for eternity..."

Shiver me timbers! I'd 'ave thought they'd been up for that.

Ah Ron lad, I thinks maybe you need to dip into a different font!

A. MacAulay

Oh dear, oh dear! Is it really so hard to understand? The Pope represents a large part of the Christian heritage, much vaunted, of European civilisation. If one chooses to see Europe today as a christian as opposed to a humanistic society, then a christian value system that includes anathematising homosexuals should also be acceptable. Along with the Apocalypse, Hell, and rising naked, but fit and happy from the grave on Judgement Day. It goes along with burning witches which we didn't stop because the church had a problem with it, but because witchcraft ceased to be a criminal offence because nobody believed in it any more.

The strength of our civilisation is in it's humane tolerance which allows us to go about our business trying to be happy.

DeeJay

Who advises Madge on these invitations for a state visit? Some very dubious characters including the President and his missus from Roumania and that Saudi bloke that spend millions funding radical and subversive mosques in the UK? So the Pope with his medieval and barbaric views on gays is just part of a long line of dodgy characters. Give Peter Tatchell and Rowan Williams a sporting chance by inviting them to the state banquet. Then they can both throw their bread rolls at the Pontiff.

R Mitchum

Most of these comments scare me more than the Pope's. It must be the Dawkins Mob.

Derek Pasquill

As Pim Fortuyn said: "I have nothing against Moroccans; I sleep with them."

Buggery, politics and religion: what's not to like?

jon ryan

A. MacAulay said:

"It goes along with burning witches which we didn't stop because the church had a problem with it, but because witchcraft ceased to be a criminal offence because nobody believed in it any more."

You forgot to add `eventually.` `Eventaully the church ceased to belive in it` to mis-quote you just a bit. I'm not sure that a church that still believes in miracles and transsubstatiation has given up its belief in witches. Don't they still go in for exorcism?

This church, remember, is the one that didn't forgive Galileo for having the termerity to suggest that the earth goes around the sun until 1991. Frankly they seem just as demented as the people with the exploding knickers.

Ian G

Mr Liddle, obviously, one or two people understand what you are saying and how you are saying it. Don't you find it worrying (exasperating? frightening?) that readers of your column in The Spectator do not seem to understand satire? You weren't being particularly obscure.

stephen maybery

Ain't life a bugger at times. There's poor old Nick Clegg banging on about how normal homosexuality is, then along comes this Pope saying it isn't, doesen't he know that you can't get into the Lib Dems unless you are as bent as a corkscrew? not to mention that gay is the new straight. Try getting a council house if you are male and married. No, Benedict my old love, there is only one way to get ahead in the Harmonised country of ours and that is to take it like a man.

A J Scott

Was it FDR who said that he could best deal with two of his quarreling Cabinet members by locking them up in a small room and then welcoming the survivor? (something like that)
Perhaps the same could be done with the Pope and the loudest Imam we can find?

jon ryan

"Was it FDR who said that he could best deal with two of his quarreling Cabinet members by locking them up in a small room and then welcoming the survivor? (something like that)
Perhaps the same could be done with the Pope and the loudest Imam we can find?"

Doesn't seem fair. There's only one pope and a seemingly infinite number of noisy imams.

Perhaps Il Papa could team up with some of those tea party creationalists? Palin and the Pope vs Amadinajan and that bloke with the hook? That really would boost interest in religion!

Noa Zrk

"Frankly they seem just as demented as the people with the exploding knickers".

Demented, maybe, but I suspect you'd still prefer that witch burning left footer in the adjacent passenger seat to the adultery stoner.

Wilhelm

Rod

You must admit that the Pope and the Roman catholics have the style, all those Armani cassocks and Ray Bans, you just cant beat it, can you ?

Amanda in America

Wilhelm at 1:51 esp. first paragraph: Exactly.

---
EyeSee says:

'I can't help thinking though, that gays must be glad their parents weren't'.

What makes you think gays don't reproduce? I worked for an art director on Broadway years ago, who had a son, even though it was obvious that he was not a woman's man (and probably fancied Rock Hudson when young). Mind you, his son is probably straight because apparently it's the cocktail of hormones in the womb and not genes that create the 'orientation'. And that's just a matter of chance OR cause unknown.

Mrs.Josephine Hyde-Hartley

What's a "moral evil" when it's at home? I like to think this scenario(of a man handing out leaflets containing bible quotes getting arrested) happened because of this thing called "moral evil" which tends to have a really ugly head when it's not at home. Of course by this I don't mean the police are morally evil- they're just doing their job- But I can agree with the Pope in the sense that when "moral evil" is propagated in public through ill-informed gossip and hearsay it's obviously going to be more destructive than the sum of it's parts, so to speak. The Pope, like all Christians can understand the world is under the control of such evil until Jesus comes again in glory to judge the heavens and the earth etc.
So as a Christian I don't and can't and won't believe the Pope actually judges homosexual people as evil. I hope he doesn't view the physical (dare I say common?) expression of love or sexuality as somehow different from the expression of spiritual morality in the heavenly firm.

jon ryan

"What makes you think gays don't reproduce? "

King James I & VI, who commissioned the eponymous bible, was gay, despite producing 7 children. If gays didn’t reproduce, our current queen would not exist.

C Cole

We all know that the pope won't in fact be arrested when he visits Britain. I'm assuming that would be the case even if he repeated some of his comments about homosexuality on our soil. So there's hypocrisy #1 for you.

Absurdity #1, as Rod rightly notes, is that we should have legislation in place in this country under which the pope or other adherents of a given religion could in theory be arrested just for propounding the teachings of that religion.

In a liberal democracy such as many of us fondly like to imagine we live in, freedom of religion (including the freedom to change religions) takes its place alongside freedom of speech and expression.

The best response to the views of the popes, Sir Iqbal Sacranies and Stephen Greens of this world is to use our freedom to argue robustly against them. It is not to enact legislation criminalising the expression of those views. Much less to enact further legislation prohibiting other people from pointing out the contradictory and hateful nature of the religions that give rise to those views in the first place (absurdity #2).

The repeal of the worst of New Labour's laws cannot come fast enough.

DeeJay

After careful and thoughtful consideration I think the Pope should be arrested when he comes to the UK. It would send a powerful message to the rest of the world and more importantly, it would help convince the Israelis that we treat all alleged criminals equally, regardless of the race, status or religion

I was Binman's Lawyer

As so as one Englishman opens his mouth another one puts his foot down it.
Will the last one sent to the nick for equality, diversity and hate crime please leave the key in the lock. Others coming into the country might want to use it.

Wayne Gillespie

Can someone please clarify what is the difference between sodomy and buggery? Are the terms interchangeable?

Yer man in Rome

Rod, I may of course be wrong, but the Vatican is I think a sovereign state and the Pope is the titular head, so has sovereign immunity at common law. So back to the drawing board.

David Ossitt

jon ryan

"What makes you think gays don't reproduce?"

jon; you are deliberately missing the point, they don’t with each other.

Martin Paul.

H.P.Flashman, it's not just The Labour Party pandering to The Church Of Rome. The BBC have a number of devout R.C.s in positions of power. News bulletins at Christmas now lead with the pontificating of the old man in Rome, ahead of the leader of our established church.
No one has done more harm to our planet in the last fifty years than Benedict and his immediate predecessor. I'm disgusted that he's allowed to make an official visit to our country.

Dog Snob

Derek Pasquill

So, there are no Moroccan women then?

Sean

More claptrap about homosexuality from the liberal left! Rod, why do you support and encourage a lifestyle whose practice is so risky? Look at the range of mental and physical diseases besides AIDS associated with homosexual practice. Why are homosexuals banned from giving blood to the Blood Transfusion service? It is bleeding obvious that homosexuality is a psychological disfunction. If a homosexual or lesbian "couple" split up, why is the reaction of their friends one of relief rather than sadness which is what happens when a normal couple split up? The Pope is absolutely right in his strictures but Western liberals are so blinded by their own extremely narrow ideology (which they think is universal truth) that they cannot see it. Thank God we have a Pope who is unafraid to speak this truth.

jon ryan

Sean, the majority of HIV/aids infections are now heterosexually transmitted, or seen among heterosexual or sexually inactive (mostly children) humans.

Various religions betray their primitive homophobia,like yours, in perpetuating the `gay only disease` lie.

You could ask your pope how many deaths his church has caused by banning barrier contraception, a well established means of preventing much HIV/aids infection. Far too many to count, but certainly many tens of thousands have been condemmed to a horrible death by this primitive, barbaric behaviour.

"An estimated 430 000 [240 000–610 000] new
HIV infections occurred among children under
the age of 15 in 2008. Most of these new
infections are believed to stem from transmission
in utero, during delivery or post-partum"

Full paper here: http://data.unaids.org/pub/Report/2009/JC1700_Epi_Update_2009_en.pdf

London Calling

"The filth were alerted"

filth?

Your so Mill Wall Rod, it's in your Jeans...

Bang Up Rod Liddle so he can say
allo allo allo to his f-f-f- friends...:)

See you at Highbury sunshine,
Dont forget your ray- bans...

john holland

Why do none of my pointless sarcastic rants ever get published on this website?
It's starting to feel like a conspiracy. Now I know how Lord "I've Cured The Common Cold" Mongton feels. Having said that, this one probably will be now.

David Ossitt

john holland

“Why do none of my pointless sarcastic rants ever get published on this website?”

Because they are pointless sarcastic rants.

john holland

David Ossit- that surely can't be the reason, I mean have you ever actually read the half-baked, knee-jerk tripe that passes for informed opinion on this site?
No, quality control is certainly not the reason my rubbish doesn't get on.
See, for a particularly mind-numbing example, the possible parody that is "Sean". Maybe he's an invention of Chris Morris'- I sincerely hope so.

Giles

Buggery is pointless and boring.

Jim Corbett

As a practising papist I find it odd that the Pope speaks so loudly on the sexual proclivities of the masses whilst remainign silent on the International explouits of buggering priests and hold child abusers. Hopefully having summoned all the irish Bishops to Rome he'll say and do something meaningful soon. I suppose I'll be ecommunicated now.

Carl

I read your headline as "Bang up the Hoop". I'm surely damned.

Grigori Seacole Rasputin

Where's Rodders?
Is he still Russian offski?

jon ryan

"Where's Rodders?
Is he still Russian offski?"

Indy job fell through, but he's up for Green Issues Editor on the Gruniad. He's gone off to an Ashram to get his chakras sorted before the interview.

Richard Matthews

Having read Dawkins' God Delusion, I notice that many of the atheists' arguments are either lifted or paraphrased from this text, which seems to have become something of an atheist's bible.

Any Colour but Brown

"jon ryan
Various religions betray their primitive homophobia,like yours, in perpetuating the `gay only disease` lie."
And you perpetrate the lie that anyone, who disagrees with homosexuality, is homophobic (do you, actually, know what it means?).

"Giles
Buggery is pointless and boring."

Whilst incest is only relatively boring, necrophilia is just dead boring

Kojak

Rod, have you left the building?

Just asking, there's been nothing heard from you for over a week.

Specie colleagues: Do we need to send out a search party?

Roderigo Seacole Borgia

jon ryan, February 10th, 2010 11:49am
"So why not a few swaps?"

I think that you could be on to something here! However, in order to create a money-spinner we must dispense with the notion of 'free' that your use of the word 'swaps' implies.

There could well be a lucrative transfer market to be exploited between the major religions who may well wish to have only the very best queer-bashing misogynists on their books.

This would require the establishment of a new world governing body and inevitably lead to the appointment of some corrupt, bloated anti English foreigner to run it.

Somewhat disappointingly under the new arrangements, despite the impressive beard, Rowan Williams would probably still be available on a free transfer from the CofE.

DZ

Sorry about the Indie, that sounded good. But 'Green Issues' at the Grauniad: that's a laugh a minute, journos writing about science. Journos don't know, so they have to believe. But science isn't about believing. Anyway, the first 'Green Issue' to cover should be Population Growth. How many years does it take for the world population to double if the rate of increase is 3% per annum? Blimey Rod, I've written your first article for you.

GaryO

Looks like no job for you at the Indie, boyo:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2010/feb/19/rod-liddle-independent-editor

What even after sucking up to Inayat Bunglawala?

Bastards. What does a man have to do to suck up to the progressive liberals these days?

E.L. Wisty

Rab, If you're honest with yourself the Indy wasn't really you was it? It's a dead duck anyway. You'd have been quackers to have took the job.

If you're contemplating your next career move then a how about standing against her at the election! After 'Bang up the Pope' it could be "Stick one up the Abbott!"

Oh go on, she's only got a majority of 7,247. We'd all stay up to 3am to see the fat cow get chucked out.

hadrian

Stephen Green, whatever you may sneeringly think of him and however derogatorily you may seek to protray him, simply spoke for many Chrustians in this country who continue to believe Holy Scripture and divinely revealed truth despite the threats and menaces that spew forth from our humanistic hypocritically all-are-equal masters. Green did NOT incite to violence, he simply warned of the eternal end of those abusing the gift of sex, ie extra marital sex. It is truly amazing the speed with which this country and our culture has plunged from the days when such sex was indeed seen as a shameful act to today's situation when such practitioners rule the roost. As Scripture warns- we are indeed 'given over' to such behaviours as judgement.
As for the Pope's pronouncements, I must say, considering his own institution's entirely unBiblical and unhealthy enforcement of clerical vows of celibacy, he does sound a trife confused. Furthermore he is still having to deal with the painful damage limitation on his institution's most unholy cover-ups of the very predictable immoral outcomes o its unhealthy rules.

CH Crusty Un

Hadrian, "Chrustians?"

Is it still a problem in Cardiff? I thought that they ran Captain Jack out of town after they blew up Torchwood.

Stephen Green should be allowed to leaflet about anything he likes - suggest Sheep in Cardiff - it's called Free Speech!

Proud American

Fascinating article on whether England should be Catholic.

Sorry guys, it's Muslim. The Mosques are full, the churches are empty. Time to become dhimmis, Libtards!