The slow creep of the suburban south-east

Mike Thomas

Rod,

From experience Leamington Spa and Warwick house prices went up considerably on completion of the M40 into West London.

The cost of travel on HST2 probably makes it unrealistic to commute on this service.

My main concern is if, as the Tories propose, HST is a replacement for domestic air travel, it must be pushed much further north connecting London, Birmingham to Leeds and Manchester and onwards.

Lord Adonis' plan is simply half-baked.

Noa Zrk

I suspect the whole idea is a Labour chimera designed to project a false picture of high technology development.

It will quietly disappear after the election, as the true extent of national indebtedness sinks in and any money that is available is used to pay down Brown's borrowings.
As to the cost of travelling by rail, it can be confidently predicted to increase exponentialy, as urgent repairs to the existing shoddy infrastructure increase cost and revenues for the operators reduce accordingly.

So, if you plan to leave rural Wiltshire more than once a month take out an additional mortgage or follow Norman Tebbit's advice and get on your bike.

Eddie

Yes I agree, it's all pointless nonsense. What we REALLY need to do is get rid of some of our overly large population - though sadly 1.6 million immigrants have been allowed in since 1997... We are a small island with too many people - that's the truth. And if we started attempts to stabilise and reduce our population now, life would be better for everyone.

But really, house prices are over double what they should be in the UK and so many people are suffering because of it - though people with houses and ortgages want prices to rise through their greed and selfishness, and politicians bribe them accordingly with their policies.

Those high prices are caused by immigration, high divorce and single parent rates, and buy to let chancers - all caused by govt policies.

So this article is asking the wrong questions really... trains are not the issue here.

Rhoda Klapp

If it's worth doing, raise the capital privately. If you can't do that, it ain't worth doing.

We could not build the railways today. What was doable in Victorian times is not now. 200-year-old solutions pushed for PC reasons are not going to do us any good.

We might consider paving over the existing line to use for trucks?

AngloWelshDragon

Oh god. It is bad enough the rural midlands being infested with commuting Brummies without an influx of Cockernese. Keeping the kids speaking the Queen's English is an uphill struggle as it is!

radgie gadgie

Rod,

I'm with you regarding high speed rails to places relatively close to London but I think you will end up with a sprawling US/Japan style megalopolis gradually filling the green bits west of London.

What is an absolute scandal is the lack of a proper high speed link to the far regions like Leeds, Newcastle and Lancashire. There is no better example of the low priority Westminster gives to them than the absence of both a quick rail link to the North-east AND the fact that the A1 north of Newcastle hasnt even got a continuous dual carriageway (much less motorway) to the Scottish capital. And dont get me started on bleedin' broadband..

Robert Taggart

Message to Britain...
calm down, chill out, cool off !
Time to take a deep breath and still deeper thought. Where is all this rushing around, material greed and one-upmanship leading us ? The 'promised land' ? ! Methinks not. Rather, distress, fatigue and ulcers ! We could all live with less and live life at a more 'natural' pace. Moi does... albeit off the back of you taxpayers ! LOVE IT !

se1man

So what's the answer?
To not build excellent transport links?
To rip up the M40, the M4, and high speed rail lines?
To deliberately slow down the trains to preserve regions as non-commutable?
To make it as difficult as possible to get around this country?
To send us all back to the 18th century in order to preserve those quaint regional accents and attitudes?
Not much of a vision for the future, is it?

rod liddle

Radgie; agree, entirely

Dixon

The North is going to be an independent Muslim region inside thirty years anyway.

That or a battleground.

Robert Taggart

re: se1man. Mm... that could be a good start ! Also, one car (if you must have personal transport) per household, one television, one 'mainframe' computer, one child (if you really must have sprogs) per family, one holiday (away) lasting one week max...
As for the nations infrastructure... more local bypasses and ironing out of bumps and curves on our 'main' roads, also, likewise on our 'main' lines.
Moi ?... one home (shared), one television (shared), one computer (shared), no wife (few), no sprogs (FEW !), no pets (cat and dog years back), no mortgage, loans, debts (well, only to 'society' !)... no problem !
This high speed rail line be touted as the answer to our economic / logistical woes. NO. It be like giving a barrel of beer to a recovering alcoholic ! One likes a drink, but... cheers !

DougS

Rhoda Klapp
March 11th, 2010 2:01pm

Completely agree.

If it doesn't stand up as a private capital investment it's probably a waste of money.

After a massive subsidy of tax money we'll end up with a service that few can afford to use. It's almost as bad as the tax money spent combating climate change, almost, but not quite in the same league, because at least you end up with something marginally useful.

David Ossitt

“And, as usual, the north-east has been ignored; the subsidiary proposals to link Birmingham with Leeds and Edinburgh on existing routes seem to me little more than a sop and of scant benefit.”

After the 1997 election; that incompetent fat prat John (unzip me fly) Prescott, was supposed to deliver a modern, state of the art, integrated transport system.

In point of fact; I remember his pompous boast of, ”if I do not deliver you can sack me” well he never delivered.

To ignore Leeds and Manchester is a total disgrace.

EyeSee

The whole point of a fast train is that you get to where you're going quickly. Great as long as you live in Birmingham or London. It will be too expensive to use daily so will be used for those on longer distance jogs and whilst cutting the journey time is great for them, you have to ask; at what cost? Our current infrastructure needs modernising and a competently run line is plenty quick enough. The BBC covering this story spoke warmly of how useful a fast train would be, faster even than the one she was on, as she stood in a completely empty carriage. A glaring need for faster trains indeed.

A. MacAulay

As seen from Europe, British infrastructure stumbled and fell in the 70's at the latest, and then didn't get up. Driving up the A9 is like getting stuck in a time warp, only more dangerous.

To those who fear a parasitic settler infection from the SE, I would offer a guided tour of the area around Stuttgart where I live, work and commute daily from a developed village whose equal England has never seen. The infrastructure is modern and steadily improved, tax breaks for commuters and credit encouragement for home builders have made rural communites RICH!

And I will not praise the Germans out of some misplaced "they lost the war but won the peace" whinge, but say take a drive through Denmark or Holland and you will be astonished. Britain is stuck in the same league as a number of former East Bloc states and they are working hard on the problem. Infrastructure is the States responsibility and generations of British governments have simply been asleep at the wheel. And by the way, there is now a TGV high speed train connection daily between Stuttgart and Paris.

Sir Graphus

The real question is; if it is such a great idea, why didn't we do it 10 years ago when we could have found some money to spend on it.

Gordon managed to double public spending during his time at No 11, without us actually having anything to show for it. At least this would have been something.

If this line had been planned to link prosperous London with declining areas like the North East, they could have regenerated themselves. Instead they are locked to the teat of public spending (some would say deliberately), either benefits, industrial subsidy, or civil service outposts.

Adonis seems a very able minister, whose only fault seems to be an aversion to standing for election.

East Anglian

Slew the route East by 100 miles! Would be nice for us out in the frozen East to have a bit of modern infrastructure for a change.

Carl

I can never understand the obsession of connecting Birmingham with London. Birmingham is full of badly dressed people with dodgy accents. Never has a town deserved a greater bypassing in favour of Liverpool and Manchester or even those hardy Geordies.

David Ossitt

Despite the fact that the national television news at 6pm informed us that the decision was to be London to Birmingham only, our local BBC news that followed it, talked about the wonderful news of a London to Leeds/Manchester Edinburgh rail.

Then some nonsense about it being London to Manchester then back across to Leeds, has nobody heard of the shortest distance, crow flies etcetera.

Dixon

All we need are some very, very, very long steam trains, coal fired, to help the environment, so long that they only take twenty minutes for the first carriage to arrive in Glasgow as the last carriage leaves London.

Then we can look at the possibility that with advanced technology and an international space programme we might be able to realise the ancient dream of building a channel tunnel. I propose it would be called the "chunnel".

We could have special "wobbly wagons" after hours called "Bottelinos" with free Virgins for travellers in First and roof-racks for those in fifth.

Finally, although really stretching the imagination and challenging credibility somewhat, we could have a mooted high speed train to oop north and run it at a profit. Hah, David Icke, what will he think of next!

Noa "mind the gap" Zrk

Dixon March 11th, 2010 3:37pm

"The North is going to be an independent Muslim region inside thirty years anyway".

In which case, are camel trains the future?

HairyNoddy

I thought Gordon Brown was from Sotland, not the suburban southeast.

DougS

Sir Graphus
March 11th, 2010 5:32pm

"The real question is; if it is such a great idea, why didn't we do it 10 years ago when we could have found some money to spend on it..."

It's amazing what 'brilliant' ideas can be conjured up just before an election. I've even heard GB and some other labour politicians mention regenerating 'manufacturing industry' - first time I've heard that expression for years!

Old Slaughter

The South-East will pay for it Rod.

James Murphy

Grim up North! The only good thing about the north of England are the people. God knows how they bear that climate and those bloody awful industrial cities with all that faux-grandiose Victorian architecture! (Hold on while I put my helmet on...)

Tendryakov

Carl on 10th March above: I fully support your last remark about Birmingham, and I live there. If this goes ahead, the Midlands will be swamped with Londoners, and they'll want to take all the houses for their weekend retreats. Worst of all, Shropshire would be relatively accessible to them. Bypass Birmingham, but also investigate exactly why it is that Londoners don't want to live in London. If the worst comes to the worst, and they come anyway, speaking with an estuary accent should become a criminal offence outside of the Great Wen.

JohnAnt

Who has been shouting 'If you don't build an even faster rail link from Birmingham to Acton I'll take my capital/factory/company/employees elsewhere'?
No one. Waste of money. How high speed to Euston will a train be that stops just north of Wormwood Scrubs for lots of passengers with maxi-luggage to get out and get another train to Heathrow airport?

David Ossitt

James Murphy

“Grim up North! The only good thing about the north of England are the people.”

James you are quite right about the Northern People; in the main, the salt of the Earth.

But “Grim” no, I will grant; that if you look very hard you will still find the occasional slag heap, and our industrial towns a cities do have, unattractive areas of industry.

And there are some once pretty Mill Towns that now bear a striking resemblance to some far flung foreign clime.

But just look at the country side; the hills, the woods, the moors, the dales and valleys, gurgling brooks, streams and rivers, and a wonderful coastline, all the essence of tranquillity.

Then there is the food; never such choice to be had, and the pubs, inns, tearooms, cafes, restaurants, fish and chip shops, all in abundance.

But I have kept the best till last, it is simply not the south, I would not move south for a million pounds.

John

The more high speed rail links there are in and out of London, the more white flight there will be, and the more the capital will begin to resemble some third-world dump like Islamabad or Mogadishu.

This process is well underway already.

michael

Faux-grandiose...
The pomp of real wealth creation.
m-a-n-u-f-a-c-t-u-r-i-n-g.
That's making things.
Take a trip to Shanghai...A long one.