Our cross to bear

Barm Pot

Goosestep with Brussels more likely.

Barmpot libtards ere we go!

Hertslion

No-one likes us, we don't care

RR

Short, sweet and spot on. Thank you.

JW

Rod - do you honestly believe that the Mail is accurately reflecting Clegg's opinions?

Paul

Oh Rod, I thought you would have provided more nuance then the DM proles. You are misrepresenting Clegg here he never said we have a greater cross to bear than the Germans for WWII he was referring to how those events have become scripted in the nation's historical narrative. This is what he wrote:

"But the British cross is more insidious still. A misplaced sense of superiority, sustained by delusions of grandeur and a tenacious obsession with the last war".

I for one fully agree. There is little place in our triumphalist narrative for introspective criticism, very little acknowledgement of our appeasement of Stalin which involved selling out all of East-Central Europe or of pointless and vindictive bombing raids in the last few months of the war, Dresden being the classic example.

A true patriot is able to both praise and criticise his country, and for the Daily "hurrah for the blackshirts" Mail to take the moral highground on this is laughable.

fredvallier

Come on, Rod. Gissa break.

The hapless Nick said not a greater cross but a "more insidious" cross. That is, to put it simply, the Germans came off the war with a strong sense of guilt (quite right) and we with a great sense of pride (also quite right). The Germans however, largely because their country was in ruins, had to get off their backsides and work, which they did. Which is why they are so rich and successful. Sadly, in Britain we have preferred to dwell on past glories and think the rest of the world owes us a living because of what we did in WW2. That is our "more insidious cross", and it has not servied us well.

This is why, relatively speaking, we are not as rich and successful as the Germans. WW2 is now 70 years in the past, I hear.

However, I notice the Daily Mail had a wonderfully insane headline yesterday: "'German planes are flying over London again': Lufthansa aircraft spotted in UK airspace ... as British jets remain grounded."

I think I'll hide in the shed until May 7.

Scramble!

Stephanie Tohill

Nice interpretation but that isn't what Nick Clegg said. Do you imagine readers of your Blogg cannot go to the actual excerpt?

"“All nations have a cross to bear, and none more so than Germany with its memories of Nazism,” Mr Clegg wrote. “But the British cross is more insidious still. A misplaced sense of superiority, sustained by delusions of grandeur and a tenacious obsession with the last war, is much harder to shake off.”

Courtesy of the Telegraph. The cross Britain has to bear relates to its delusions of grandeur and misplaced sense of superiority. Both of which are a wholly accurate description of Britain and not something you can quite fully comprehend until you have spent some times overseas and realise how embarrassing this comes across. It's witnessed by media commentators who are annoyed when the US brushes us aside, or only sees Britain within the idea of the EU. Or is shocked at the dominance of China and the growth of the dominance of countries such as Brazil and Russia etc. And those views of Britain, held by Clegg aren't just views held by 'Brussels' but wider afield.

The days when Britain reigned supreme, with influence beyond its stature are long, long gone. Time to accept it.

rod liddle

Stephanie - it is exactly what Clegg said and meant. It's a view, and one a lot of people share. Fewer in this country than abroad, maybe, though.

John in Norwich

Lining up the German cross with a British one implies that they are of the same moral order. Dresden is not the same as the Holocaust, or what Stalin did overtime. At times even with the most vile regimes appeasement may be a necessary option ('if I heard that Hitler had invaded hell I would at least put in a good word for the devil') unless you are happy to argue for British forces (without US assistance) to continue their drive to reinstate a free Poland in 1945, 46 perhaps by 1947?

Britain does not have a 'cross to bear' from World War Two, though the outcome of the war did create problems which we may or may not have resolved. This is a different issue.

Also Clegg reveals himself to be a throughly conventional thinker. For the left that the post-war economic problems of Britian are cultural has been standard fare for 40 or 50 years (though Thatcherism also peddled this agenda). Thus absolving them of the need to do something productive (go into engineering) because it is more important to concentrate on the bigger picture (cultural problems in the UK) so you can get a job in the media, or PR-politics.

Maggie

Nick Clegg said this morning that he's gone from being "Churchjill to a Nazi". No-one has called him a Nazi. He made that up as he makes up most things.

Noa Zrk

The cross we will bear tomorrow is Red on White field. As you identify Nick Clegg has not shown himself to be worthy or deserving of bearing the flag of St George on behalf of himself or his fellow countrymen.

MikeF

One of the noticeable things about the left's and 'liberal-left's' obsession with 'anti-racism' is the complete absence from its narrative of the UK's stand against Nazism in 1939-40-early 41 - not least, you must suppose, because the world's only self-proclaimed socialist state was at that time not only allied with the Nazis but actually cooperating with them in the neo-genocidal destruction of the Polish nation (the Holocaust against the Jews really followed on from that).

Just imagine if instead it had been Britain that had signed a non-aggression pact with Hitler and that the Soviet Union had gone to war with the Nazis in defence of Poland. In that case we would never hear the end of it from he left - even today. But because it was Britain under a Conservative government and the British Empire that stood alone against Hitler, well it just gets passed by or treated an as aberration. The left always thinks that what should have happened is more important than what actually did happen if real events contradict their belief system.

Peter Arnold

Britain's cross is, in my view, the reverse of how Clegg sees it. We are too timid to claim any national pride, too ground down by the liberal-left consensus that to know shame is to be white British, or even worse, White English.

GaryO

If only we had lost to the nice Germans, it would have made us loved (like the French), and who knows, prosperous even.

Ahh…maybe little Cleggie has an inferiority complex.

Linda Smith

If Clegg is "in step with Brussels", then I suppose he, like the Belgians, is in favour of banning the Burqa. That should lose him the Muslim vote.

S Arse

Stef Toot says... "The cross Britain has to bear relates to its delusions of grandeur and misplaced sense of superiority. Both of which are a wholly accurate description of Britain and not something you can quite fully comprehend until you have spent some times overseas and realise how embarrassing this comes across".

I have spent the last 25 years travelling the globe for the purposes of business, spending fully two thirds of each of those years in countries of every continent.

The overwhelming majority of non British people that I have met during those years have had nothing but (sometimes misplaced) admiration for Britain and the British.

We Britons have the very unusual characteristic of self effacement, and indeed we suffer acute embarrassment at any sign of our country being praised. Whereas peoples of other nations are quite often overcome with swelling pride if their country is commended in any way.

People such as Nick Clegg take their nationality awkwardness with them on their travels to Europe, and upon encountering the not so humble mainlanders, they actually start to participate in the belief that Britain and the Britons have little to offer the world.

That state of mind seems to inform the whole Left/Liberal philosophy these days and has led to their conviction that our country’s native population of indolent dullards should be bolstered by untold millions of settlers to bring fresh blood. And that even with that contingency squared, we will need to be governed form elsewhere if disaster is to be averted.

Strength comes through confidence, at a personal level, and at a national level too!

S Ferguson

Its truism that they don't like it up 'em.

Kennybhoy

"England is perhaps the only great country whose intellectuals are ashamed of their own nationality. In left-wing circles it is always felt that there is something slightly disgraceful in being an Englishman and that it is a duty to snigger at every English institution . . ."

George Orwell

DougS

Don't mention the war!

Vote UKIP

Linda Smith

Not only does Nicholas Clegg's party wish to "devolve all of our powers to people whom we either liberated or deafeated", they also wish to be governed by an unelected, unaccountable elite who make laws behind closed doors. A vote for Clegg and the Liberal Democrats is a vote for the EUSSR.

Maggie

I'm surprised no-one has yet mentioned that well known hymn: Gladly the Cross-Eyed Bear

Adam Brace

Oh Rod, I was such a fan as well. There's more than a grain of truth to that statement he made. And the cross to bear line can be taken out of context in the way that you so often are. Economically, he has a point. And don't you think delusions of grandeur are pretty dangerous?

Isn't this the sort of honest, swimming against the tide comment that you could respect because it's what you do so well?

Olaf Rye

How can our cross be more insidious than the systematic murder of six million Jews and the collaboration of elements of the occupied nations in this process ? The continental narrative is perverse in this respect--Britain did a glorious thing and represented the hope of a liberal democracy in those dark years.

I might, however, disagree with you about one thing Rodd: I am originally Danish and can therefore say with a fair degree of certainty that the British are widely liked in Denmark and throughout much of Scandinavia.

rod liddle

Adam - is there? I'm aware it's a very familiar line, abroad. Germany's prosperity is down largely to its size. A lot of our diffidence towards Europe comes not from the war but from being dissociated, geographically, from the continent.

Augustus

"One of the most misleading factors in history is the practice of historians to build a story exclusively out of the records which have come down to them."
- Winston Churchill

Arthurgreenwood

What does Clegg mean by "delusions" of grandeur. After all the munitions and insults that Europe has thrown at as over the last hundred years we are still free to insult our politicians and to vote for whoever we please, and the rest of the world look to us for a sense of fair play - even to the point of altruism.

Kennybhoy

Adam Brace wrote:

"..honest, swimming against the tide comment.."

Balls! This pose has been the left-liberal default mode for generations!

Joe: the public's friend.

Clegg's comments display his own personal identification with A European stance and prove that he could not be trusted to represent UK interests.

His use of the 'insidious' is itself - deceptive and treacherous - he is claiming objectivity while actually betraying his fellow citizens.

Still, it's not likely taht his stock will remain at overstimulated high as the truth reaches anybody with the slightest sense.

So, come all all you bar room lawyers and listen to my plea, if want to make a protest vote set down your cross for me. My name is Joe and I'm your best friend. You can trust your tax with me.

Baron Pipin II

As one who can judge it abit from the outside, I reckon three things had a decisive bearing on events both during and after the war: Britain under Churchill as the only big European power not to succumb to the Nazi evil either by mimicking it or being kicked by it, the battle of Kursk, and the dropping of the two nuclear bombs over Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

If anything, Britain should be immensely proud of its war past. Given Adolf’s admiration for things British he would have pulled it out if Churchill were to agree to sharing the spoils. To even compare Britain’s national psyche as a consequence of the war with that of the Germans after the Nazi evil shows immaturity of the highest order as John in Norwich @ 12.18 adequately points out. The use of the adjective ‘insidious’ with its strong connotation of deceit is also misplaced. Only a pseudo-liberal would go for it describing peoples known for the (more then than now) lack of obsequiousness in their character.

teledu

Perhaps our low standing with other Europeans is down to the poor quality of our European Song Contest entries!

Cloggy Clegg

Vote Clegg get Foot (RIP).

Dixon

It matters not a jot that that lot dont like us. Who gives a monkeys what they think? What matters is that "our" ruling "elite" dont like us!

Nobody despises the British like some Britons. They need sorting out.

I wont go into detail here.

Dixon

I think its time we asserted our intellectual property rights and demand payment of royalties for the universal use of OUR language. Even in France English is in many settings the...er...lingua Franca! We invented it, they acknowledge its superiority by using it. Its time we got paid.

Then there is the use of English by those Americans. The bill for 200 years of that should pay off more than our every debt.

They still havent paid us for the blessed hovercraft!

David Preiser

What's wrong, Rod? You wanted somebody to become US President who said the exact same thing about his own country. You too thought the US should be put in its place, and that the guy who thought the same thing should be President. Now the shoe is on the other foot, and the lower lip trembles.

Nobody likes you, you say? It's all down to resentment, eh? Get to the back of the queue and stop whining.

Robert Mitchum

That's all we need - another Britain hating politician with some peculiar axe to grind, desperate to gain power and finish the job which NuLabour had almost completed. What these people need is not power but a psychiatrist to help resolve their immature and warped resentments.

Sam Armstrong

This is indeed the dreadful corporatist EU influence. The EU is probably telling citizens in all its provinces that they are the laughing stock of the continent. All part of the process of softening up!

I wonder if he gets a kick out of talking his country into national suicide. Perhaps his cheesy Eurowife makes him do it!

David Lindsay

My father served with Monty in North Africa, before anyone starts.

We ended up giving Poland to Stalin anyway. How was that any better than letting Hitler have Poland in the first place? We lost our global status and were in debt to our great rival for it right up until 29th December 2006. Have you got that? 2006!

Moral standards collapsed during the War, and everything to do with the Swinging Sixties really started then. We laugh now about the women from whose bedrooms the Normandy Landings were reputedly launched. But it was, and is, no laughing matter.

There is always a baby boom after a war, so there was bound to be the Baby Boom after the War, imposing its views and tastes on both its elders and its juniors. Apparently for ever. There were warnings about this in the Thirties. But then, there were warnings about a lot of things in the Thirties.

Germany rules via the EU, and has better schools, policing, transport infrastructure, working conditions, and standards of behaviour than we have, as well as cleaner streets, a huge domestic manufacturing base, and ownership of her own industries. She has long been out of recession.

Of course we had to defeat the country that was subjecting our towns and cities to nightly aerial bombardment. But how and why did we ever put ourselves in that position? What for?

David Preiser

David Lindsay,

That has to be the most immoral thing you've ever posted here.

William Boyd

Suez 1956 (and it was the Americans who shafted us - they basically loathe us too).

gareth

You hit the nail on the head - again!! Thanks Rod.

Ron Todd

The Liberals claim they want us to have more power in Europe not standing on the sidelines.

The bigger Europe gets the more we give up our vetos the less chance we have of influencing anything. Browns lies on the referendum have reduced us to two choices. Either go along with further integration or leave. There is no chance of reform until the whole thing collapses and they have to start again. If we can have no influence where does that leave the SNP. They want to go from having England prop up their socialist economy to having the EU prop them up. When Turky gets in and holds out the begging bowl how much will be left for a small country with no influence?

Though a SNP victory leaves open some interesting options. If we are no longer the same country that signed all the treaties could we leave the same way Greenland did?

Ron Todd

Linda Smith

What Clegg is in step with his vision of an idealised socialist Europe. What Europe would be if only he could lead the people to true socialist awarness. After which he could ignore the people as they would be totally subjugated to the state.

peter

The winners write the history text books and the loosers always dangle at the end of ropes. Any dispassionate observer of 20th century affairs will see that Britain shrunk from a major world power to a US vassal within 25 years ten of which Churchill was Prime Minister, Germany was completely obliterated and destroyed and the US lords it presently over 160 nations backed by the power of thousands of nuclear weapons and a military industrial with huge resources.
That the British media like to use imagery from the last century, largely based on WW2 propaganda to bolster the image of the Brits who actually care more about the winner of the X factor is a bit odd but only does harm in convincing us that we are somehow morally righteous. It probably still comes as a surprise to your average Cheltenham Spectator reader but most of the world and most of Europe have no particular love for the Brits and even in countries supposedly Anglophile we are at the bottom of the popular list along with the US.

MCMC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita
Germany is not 'vastly' more prosperous than the UK. On GSP per capita (PPP basis) it is either a) pretty much the same or b) slightly less prosperous. Numbers for nominal are also v similar.
Clegg proves the LibDem economic illiteracy again. As Rod says, the economy is bigger due to the extra 20m people it has.
Where Germany and other continental countries have the edge of course is that there, it seems possible to be a middle-class lefty without being a self-hating, pathetic arsehole. If only we could manage that.

Ron Todd

David Lindsay

We put ourselves in that position (having to fight Hitler) by not sufficiently defeating the Germans the first time round. We tried to punishthem economicaly and politically before we fully demonstarated our military advantage. The next time round the war was run by those that were fighting the Germans for a second time. is it possable that some of them would rather lose the moral high ground and risk being considered war criminals by future generations than risk those generations having to fight the Germans again.

Ron Todd

Peter

Do you think that America is the pack leader because they put being liked ahead of being sucessful?

Wilhelm

The English have an inferioty complex and are jealous of the Germans, thems the facts.

The Germans are more intelligent and technologically advanced than the English, from the invention of the car to Werner von Braun's America's space program to jets to the maglev train, Germans were all behind it.

So there !!

The English have invented er um Marmite.

were all behhind it.

Wilhelm

Lets face the English are doormats, their woman folk wear the trousers, the English have always been good under woman from Elizabeth 1, Queen Victoria, and Thatcher.

Their men are an embarrassment to their sex.

anne allan

Dixon - you have hit the nail on the head.
For thirteen years we have been lorded over by a clique who actively hate Britain - especially the English - and everything that the British have achieved.
These malign beings existed over a century ago (G & S lampooned them), but they have now reached critical mass and are destroying this nation.

Ron Todd

Wilhelm
Marmite and lets see
Modern Democracy
Jet engine
tank
aircraft carrier
computers
telephone
light bulb
railways
spinning jenny
steam turbine
stamps
lawm mower
world wide web
hovercraft

Just off the top of my head and don't forget two world wars. Yes we had help but then forming alliances is part of war.

Baron

In one of my stabs to lecture the world @ 7.15 I said the Hitler could have pulled it ‘out’ instead of ‘pulled it off’. It would not have happened to a natural speaker of the language however fast he wrote the phrase, and I apologize for what it must have done to your language buds. You were either too polite to point it out, or ignored the piece altogether, and just as well.

Feel free to use it as an example of foreigners polluting the British culture.

temu

the leader of a party which wishes to devolve all of our powers to people whom we either liberated or defeated

false statement you cretin, and did you bother to read Cleggs piece in the guardian or just take the Daily Mail version...

Joe Bundesrepublik

Wilhelm you have hit the nail on the head I think so to cover my very great shame I shall in the future saay that I am German.

That way people may not notice my other faults and I get the beach lounger ahead of you for a change.

Heil Deutschland! Heil der Bundespepublik!Heil die Leberwurst!

We Germans have the great sense of humour, ja?

Wilhelm

Ron Toad

Erroneous Piffle.

I'll give you the Wombles and Pot Noodle but
thats it.

Noa Zrk

Wilhelm

Your are wrong.

Englishmen are not doormats.

And I have my wife's agreement to tell you so.

Ron Todd

Baron

Your English is as good as mine. the meaning was clear enough. I usualy find that most people are very forgiving as long as the intent is clear. It is odd that while to some the English can be over modest in Scotland we (or those of us who are not half English) see them as arogant and overbearing.

We say that we are the equal of anybody while the English see themselves as the better of anybody.

Since they gave us democracy and industrialisation , charted the seas and then made the charts available to everybody while wipping out the pirates thus making modern world wide commerce possible and yes two good wars they might have a point.

Wilhelm

Joe

Get your facts right , kid

Hitler was an Austrian.

rod liddle

David Preiser - who's whining about the continentals not liking us? I couldn't give a monkey's.

Olaf Rye

Wilhelm,

I admire German culture profoundly--nothing is as fascinating to me as Nietzsche, Wagner, Thomas Mann and Goethe. The British have, however, also contributed much that is wonderful and perhaps the greatest intellectual tradition in the modern era: liberalism. This was also widely subscribed to in Germany, but somehow relegated in favour of corporatist policies. Before you become too sanctimonious and pursue this paltry jingoism, do remember that Germany also gave us Auschwitz, Treblinka, the Stasi, and the Red Brigade. This naturally does not summarise a nation, especially not modern Germany, but your arguments really invite such a retort.

David Ossitt

Wilhelm

Ron Toad

Erroneous Piffle.

Come on Wilhelm; please be fair, it is neither erroneous nor piffle.

David Ossitt

Sorry Ron I copied Wilhelm’s typo in using ‘Toad’ my apologies.

David Preiser

Then more power to you, Rod. It's often hard to tell which way you're playing these things.

E Hart

He's got a point. Had we land border with Europe rather than a 22 mile moat (sans maison du canard) we wouldn't be quite so patronising about our neighbours' shortcomings. Indeed, the Daily Mail would probably have been with the first Panzer Grenadiers or Leibstandard Adolf Hitler when they arrived via the A2 in the City of London. It was a vile rag then and it still is.

In general we come across to Europeans as either boorish, ignorant and stupid or superior, ignorant and stupid.

Those who don't fit into these categories find most Europeans ameniable and kindly disposed to them.

Now own up, how many Spectator columnists have a gaff in Europe?

Olaf Rye

Really, all nations feel themselves to be superior to their neighbours in one fashion or another. Moreover, most of the nations are collectively quite patronising about the shortcomings of others. This is not characteristically British or English. Ask people in the Caribbean about their neighbours, or for that matter, listen to the abuse that Asians have reserved for those living around them. Before anyone fancies being sanctimonious about the Daily Mail, it is perhaps worth recalling that much of the opposition by the left to the Nazis was because of their implacable hostility to the USSR and not their methods. Lots of leftists continued to support and make apologies for the USSR even when the scale of their crimes became apparent.

AD

Wilhelm - show us your passport! I don't think you're German at all. I think you're an Englishman taking the p**s out of the poor Teutons.

To be serious: I don't feel superior to other nations. I love my country as I love my family - not because it's perfect but because it's mine. And I understand that foreigners love their country too - that's the difference between patriotism (hooray!) and nationalism (boo!)

As regards Europe: there's much I admire about Europe: I want more trade, more cultural exchanges, more effort from my compatriots to learn their languages, but not political union. Countries evolve political systems that suit their particular circumstances and mindset. It's madness to try and integrate 25 countries into a common system - and one that is riddled with hypocrisy, corruption and anti-democratic sentiments. I'm happy to be on good terms with Europe while remembering what the poet said: 'Good fences make good neighbours.'

CharlieRay15

Wilhem, bis du wirklich Deutscher? Noch ein Beispiel: der ARD wurde nach britischem Vorbild gegründet. Schon vergessen? Und Penicllin auch. Wir sehen uns nächste Dienstag...

Fergus Pickering

Which of you lot would rather have been born something OTHER than English? An Englihman has won first prize in the lottery of life. Absolutely. Being an American is OK. Being an Australian is bearable. Being a Celt is a cross to bear. Being a Continental - leave it out, leave it out. And not even speaking English, the language of God and Shakespeare!

David Ossitt

Fergus Pickering

"Which of you lot would rather have been born something OTHER than English? An Englihman has won first prize in the lottery of life."

Absolutely right!

paulg

Wilhelm you seem very biligerant so you must fancy yourself a German. This seems odd, as grannys fifteenth birthday party would have been ruined by 50 tartars, kicking her back door in(quite literaly)and, came to join the party.

Jog on Ivan!!

Nao Zrk

Fergus Pickering

You have caught the blessedness of being English on this proudest of days!

Just to remind our good neignbours and nearly men of what they and their children may aspire to be, I attach a link to Flanders & Swann's definitive paean of the obvious;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vh-wEXvdW8

Gil

Channel 4 has just had a round table of 'experts' on the leaders' performances in the debates: the most excruciating example of toadying to Brown and Clegg. Could they have been watching the same debate as we have???? It was a disgrace. Comment after comment from te panel was pro-Clegg and sympathy for Brown. When one of the panel tried to make a pro-Cameron comment Krishnan Guru-Murthy cut her off straight away! Bloody shambles.

rod liddle

Guru-Murthy is foul, smug and partisan. And useless. And a bit thick, from personal contact.

David P - it just seems to be the case that's that is how we are seen.

fredvallier

Christ, this is a weird thread. I mean, really weird.

Clegg wasn't that good on Thursday. Tories will probably get in. Result. But the stuff about Germany is peculiar.

Dixon

"Peter"...so why do so many people want to become American or British? They arent happy getting to Europe, no they have to go the extra ninety nine yards and jump the hoops of Sangatte to get into Britain. Then many of them (including both a Vietnamese family I once knew well ) are not happy until they can get to America. Ergo, Peter writes crap.

Ron Todd

CharlieRay15

According to the translation software I used:-

Wilhem, until you really German? One more example: of the ARD was founded according to British model. Already forget? And Penicllin also. We see ourselves the next Tuesday...

Eddie Current

Channel 4 news is so far up its own arse I really can't watch it.

Dixon

"Eddie Current
April 24th, 2010 10:05am
Channel 4 news is so far up its own arse I really can't watch it."

No...I REALLY CANNOT watch it, or anything else now ( as regulars here will know ).

CharlieRay15

@ Ron Todd

Are you really German? One more example: ARD was founded according to a British example. Forgotten already? And pencillin too. See you next Tuesday.

You've got to be careful with words like "bis" thst can be both a preposition and a verb! "Nach" can also mean "according to" or "after"!

Charles

Clegg's got a point: it's a shame we seem to have to look to the past for our great achievements rather than the present. Presumably, once the world cup gets going, it'll be all about 1966 again.

We no longer have an empire, and our current position in the world is at least partly down to past achievements rather than present status.

If the world order were a meritocracy, how high up the rankings would we be, based on our current performance? Would we be higher or lower than we believe we deserve to be? (I don't know the answer to those questions).

Eddie

Charles - methinks you exaggerate.

British inventors are responsible for over 50% of the major inventions and scientific discoveries in the world (despite American lies that Edison invented a lot - which he did not): DNA testing, cloning, and a great many IT techie stuff. Plus everythi g invented in the past: the phone, the train, the TV, the computer...

Add to that the fact that British democracy and rule of law is the model for the world - and that we are not religiously extreme or politically corrupt like most other countries, even in Europe (perhaps Clegg's Spanish wife knows about 'Spanish practices'!?...) By the way, the 'corruption' that MPs have recently been shown to indulge in would not even be counted as corruption in a country like Spain or France...

Britain no longer has an empire? Good. It was a bore and a burden. And look how much better the uncorrupt and efficient Africans run their countries now... (irony that, innit...).

Clegg should learn how to be patriotic without being a softie on immigration and striking that anti-British pose so loved of 4th rate geography teachers at failing comprehensive schools... It smacks to trying to 'make friends' with the class/electorate but self-criticism. It's what black peopel used to do - make people laugh by self-mockery so they won't call you names or hit you. Time to leave Westminster School behind, methinks...

MikeF

Anyone see Mr Guru-Murthy interviewing Nick Griffin the other. His questioning of Griffin really was pathetic: "Would you send me back?" Interesting also that the interview did not conclude with usual exchange of pleasantries - it was just chopped at the end of a Griffin sentence. Presumably the poor dears at Channel 4 just couldn't bring themselves to show the usual courtesy. Needless to say the effect was simply one of partisanship and petulance.

Charles

Eddie: I'm not trying to exaggerate, but I take your point. However, it does seem to me that debate in the media veers between "England's dreadful in all respects" and "no one has any right to criticise England because it invented TV/radio/democracy/whatever."

Both positions seem rather extreme. Like anywhere, England has its good points and its bad points, and many (including me) would take the view that the good points far outweigh the bad ones.

I think that too often in the press, healthy scepticism morphs into bitter and spiteful cynicism (look at some of the coverage of Nick Clegg; the airspace shutdown; and climate change).

What could be useful and positive discussions quickly degenerate into ad hominem attacks, and that helps no one.

So I think Clegg does have a point, and it's one that's worth discussing.

Newsel

From Skagen to the Straits of Gibraltar we are disliked – largely, I always thought, because we were one of very few European countries to emerge from the second world war with any credit, and that this credit was resented." Where the UK goes, goes the US - resented for being a success & both being dragged down by their own guilt - for being successful at one time or another. It’s the dumbing down syndrome - sad state of affairs but we are allowing it to happen and screwing ourselves while doing so…just think “Powell”.

Eddie

Charles - I agree largely with what you say. Having lived overseas in several countries and cultures, I know immediately that I am British though: it's to do with tolerance, non-extremism in politics or religions, non-corruption and fair play. A sense of decency and fairness entirely lacking in most of the world.

It rather surprised me to discover this - despite all the multiculti propaganda in the UK that there is no such thing as anything called British or English culture and that wht there is has been brought by foreigners so let's have more mass immigration and worship Mary Seacole hoorah! (The BBC policy, this) - and I would also say that British are way less nationalistic, xenophobic and racist/bigoted than any other people or nationality I know. In fact, sadly this tolerance is abused by illegal immigrants coming here - so we must be stricter now to stop the flood I think.

It is just fine to celebrate and brag about our past achievements - the Brits did after all practically invent the modern world in terms of technology and culture/democracy and moderate religion - but we should also trumpet our present achievements too (DNA testing, pop music, WWW!). We should definitely stop the constant self-flagellation and criticism which is largely unjustified - it was the Brits who abolished slavery when neither the USA nor any black africans or asians wanted too! And one third of the British navy died stopping others - black and arab mostly, and white (eg Spanish) - continuing this trade. Why is this not taught in schools? Why must children be brainwashed with lies from the race relations industry and leftie liars (who loved Stalin and now love Cuban totalitarianism). This is awful and would never happen in other countries - the French learn French history with pride; why do idiot ignorant teachers teach kids that we should be ashamed? Britain saved the world in 1940 - and that MUST be remembered.

Newsel - we are hated? What, compared to the Americans, the French, the Russians, the Japanese or the Germans? Not in my experience, dear boy.

It really is easy for small insignificant countries - they have never achieved great things or had empires so everyone loves them and no-one hates them! But NOT being hated by some shows that as a country or people you are really insignificant actually or some fake little invented country of the 19th or 20th century. So it is GOOD to be hated by some - and envied too!

Jimmy Hicks

Anne Allan @ 12:48pm

"... but they have now reached critical mass ...""

The hoodwinked Brits let the messy mass in!

Paul B

Ron Toad "Just off the top of my head and don't forget two world wars"

And one world cup- do dah