Does the Prime Minister understand the 'Real Islam'?

PuppetMaster

I suppose Cameron is thinking about the short term needs of business exporting to Turkey, rather than the longer term threat that Islam poses to civilization.
It's an interesting development though, as it underscores the fact that both Labour and Conservative policies on Islam are pretty much the same, the question is how long it takes the public to understand.
Once austerity really starts to bite in autumn I do think the BNP will begin to benefit, but I've been wrong about that so far!

digbydolben

However, Mr. Liddle, if you want the "real Islam" to change, you let Mr. Cameron and other Western leaders nudge it forward without undermining their efforts. Or do you hope that it NEVER WILL change? So that Zionism may continue its ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians? So that right-wing news moguls can continue to sell xenophobic screeds? So that the Iranians DON'T change their government, and an attack on their country may be justified? So that arms manufacturers in the UK, Europe and the USA may continue to do a brisk business, selling to the repressive Arab regimes that keep the "Islamic extremists" under control? What's YOUR interest in the "clash of civilisations," Mr. Liddle?

cuffleyburgers

Wrong, Rod, it's you that's talking crap this time.

Cameron is quite rigth to want Turkey in the EU, it is overwhelmingly in our national interest.

The Turks are generally a highly civilized, young hardworking people the majority of whom have easy going moderate islamic religious opionions (in my experience, I ahve worked with a number of them of a number of years and visited many times).

Don't forget their revered founding father was an alcoholic womanising enthusiasm of secularism.

Europe's duplicity to them on this issue will do untold damage which will take decades to repair. It is guaranteed to strengthen the hands of the islamists.

A monumentally bad decision all round which is why we all know that is what will happen.

A tragic wasted opportunity.

Tarka the Rotter

Couldn't agree more Rod, well said.

Hysteria

Again our "leaders" display a breathtaking ignorance of current world affairs and the existential threat we face in the West. Deeply worrying....

WetherspoonThree

This is pretty safe politics really. Dave can say nice things about Turkey's aspirations to join the EU completely safe in the knowledge that the French and the Germans are calling the shots and will not change their minds. Ah well, he will get a good reception in the local press but it will be quickly forgotten. Its a pretty hollow argument which says that Turkey must be given membership otherwise it will fall into the clutches of the nasty Muslim extremists...surely thats rather like trying to impose some form of western style democracy in Afganistan - doomed to failure when the 'seeds of democracy have no where to grow'. If Turkey wants to embrace western values and continue the vision set out by Ataturk then it should be supported but not by blackmailing Europe. Anyway I am not even convinced that, geographically, Turkey is even in Europe...perhaps just a little bit they nicked back off the Greeks. Europe...where does it end, today Turkey...next Israel will be asking to join..mark my words.

michael

'Londonistan'....if the PM wants to see Turkish euro islam he should take a trip to Bonn.
.....then listen to Frau Merkel!

Berlin must be proving a real god send.

rod liddle

Cuffley mate - I'm not addressing the question of Turkey in the EU; that's another issue and one we night agree on. I'm addressing his pig ignorant approach to Islam.

Bill Corr

Did CallmeDave get an F.O. briefing about contemporary Turkey?

Does he know about the present situation of the Greek minority in Turkey, the Armenian minority in Turkey, the Surani Christians of Anatolia and the Turkish Jews?

About what's happening right now to the Greeks of Imbros and Tenedos?

On the other hand, there are some who claim CallmeDave wishes to destroy the EU and is convinced that admitting the Turks is the fastest way to do it.

Is he channelling Machiavelli?

rod liddle

Digby - yes, a fair point, but I don't think flagrant dishonesty will help us reform Islam. Islam is where it is, and it doesn't hep us understand it better to lie.
And don't call me Mr Liddle, you pompous mong.

Oedipus Rex

Re. Turkey: it has only been the secular state of Turkey that has kept standards of civilization that correlate to ours and I believe it took about 7 military coups to keep Islamicists out of power since the 1920s. If Turkey were to join the EU, that kind of action to preserve Ataturk's secular tradition would no longer be possible and a more hard line Islamic government could prevail. At present the Islamic party in power has trod a line that keeps them within modern Turkey's tradition. But already I've read that the Turkish PM has called on Turks living in the EU not to integrate.
Cameron may well be talking out of his backside but probably whilst playing with his 'front side' over a photo of St. Tony of the Many Faiths.

@ digbydolben

Are you really so naive as to think that a religion and culture as vast and engrained as Islam will 'progress', as I think the word is, due to a couple of Western 'suits' being nice to them? You also fall into the category of 'conspiracy/hidden agenda' state of mind. So in response to your question to Rod, "What's YOUR interest in the clash of civilizations...?" may I retort:
"What's YOUR mental illness?"

Incidentally, I live right in the heart of the Turkish community in London. They are hard working, friendly, not more trouble than average and I have no problem living beside them.

The borders of the EU should only be enlarged if, within Europe, states are able to control immigration as they wish.

TomTOm

"Don't forget their revered founding father was an alcoholic womanising enthusiasm of secularism."

Whose Constitution was protected and secured by The Army. It is obviously better when The Army plays a leading role in keeping politicians honest....but the EU undermined this principle allowing Erdogan to sideline the Army and make Turkey more Islamic.

Turkey would not join the EU it would dominate it as the largest voting bloc. It has a highly untrained, ill-educated workforce in Anatolia and a border with Iran inter alia.

Why doesn't Britain simply dissolve itself ? It has a much better offer in 1940 than is being proposed now and we would have at least 40 million Europeans who would not have had to die.

Dixon

Hear, hear, and over here!!!!!!!!!!

startledcod

@ WetherspoonThree

Of course Turkey is in Europe. Are you now aware that the widely accepted definition of Europe is entering the Eurovision Song Contest.

having been flippant I now cannot answer seriously other than to say that i agree with the general tenet of the post.

Eddie

Yes, and ironically the only place that Muslims can be free to worship whatever version of Islam they want is in 'The West': secular democracies created by infidels...

The problem with Turkey joining the EU? Well, it isn;t in Europe. That's one. It has millions of people desperate to emigrate too. It also is undemocratic with an awful human rights record and some nasty Islamic extremists in power (almost).

What Cameron is really saying is that compared to other Muslims countries Turkey is OK to be seen holding hands with, but the country is nowhere near Western standards. and has very different values.

I agree Rod that many leftists make a mindblowingly horrible mistake in siding with Muslims against those who point out their religion's innate extremism. Or who challenge them. Or who want Muslims to be treated just the same as everyone else and given no special treatment.

Linda Smith

When I visited Turkey, a Turkish guide told us that only 3% of Turkey is in Europe.

Linda Smith

All the talk of reforming Islam is baloney. The Koran is an instruction manual, not an historical record like the Bible. Religious Muslims believe that the Koran is the word of God, therefore no reform is possible.

Contrary to popular belief, there is no compulsion to convert to Islam, as Muslims honestly tell us. We are free to live as dhimmis under Sharia Law. The religious duly for Muslims is not to convert the non-believer, but to seek the imposition of Sharia worldwide.

'Real' Oedipus Rex

Further to my 1st post, this link about apostasy is interesting:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/belief/2010/jun/05/god-atheism-islam

It would be good to know if there are similar experiences to this outside of the Enlightened Western World.

Surely 'Real' Islam, just as 'Real' Christianity, etc can only be described as the original texts as everything else since is only interpretation?

Conrad

Cameron the cameleon

Jonathan Wells

I'm married to a Turk
My Children go to Turkish Language School every Week..
Nice people the Turks (as far as I can tell from that miniscule part of the population that I am aquainted with).
Doesn't make me an expert on International Relations. Doesn't make me a poster boy for the BNP either.
It would be an act of Inanity to let Turkey join the EU.Cameron seems to think that relations between countrys and cultures can be approached in the same way as relations between rival political parties. Turkey is an Islamic country with a relatively small secular toe hold in Europe. They would not act as a bridge from the West to to the Islamic world, but rather from the Islamic world to the west. The traffic over that bridge would be oredominantly in one direction. The Battle of Lepanto might as well never have been won.

AF

Another danger is that once in the EU the extreme facets of Islam will push their case hard,and be supported by the 'human rights' of the European Union.The signs are already there that Turkish secular society is slowly being eroded,it may serve that their entry into the EU will hasten the process.

sandy

Digbydolben.

Islam will change through being "nudged forward" by the likes of Cameron?
Are you serious?

Cuffleyburgers

"Europe's duplicity.....will do untold damage."
Sorry,but that sounds like an oblique reference to the politics of "or else"

Hysteria

My feelings exactly.

Wetherspoon three

Hope you are right about the Germans,they are our best hope in this.

Linda Smith@3.31

Not a lot of people know that,including Cameron it would seem.

Noa

What have I missed, why is Cameron buttering up Turkey?

Are we in danger of running out of Polish laboureers? Is a military export contract equipment in the offing?

A bridge with the Islamic world is likely to turn into an eight lane one way highway to the West.

Man With A Very Hot Bladder

The capacity that Scameron has for fraud and deception never ceases to amaze me.

I wonder who pulls his strings.

Tiberius

It's a good story, Rod, but hardly realistic to assume Cameron is ignorant of "Real Islam", any more than it is realistic to believe that he thought the US was at war with Germany in 1940.

While the 1940 gaffe was a mere slip of the tongue, the ability to "do" anything about Islam requires a united front from the West, which simply does not exist at present. It's surely not surprising that the Prime Minister employs politics in dealing with the problem.

BTW, Rod, are you in the process of relieving brother Fraser of the cup of Neather?

Tom

I am a little confused by your point Rod. What would you make of the African Anglicans views (women/gays) vs. CofE liberalism? Which is 'real'? Perhaps in the Christian and Islamic cases it would be placing too much emphasis on difference rather than common beliefs?

Manuel

Rod is so very right, Dave is talking out of his backside.He asserts "They see no difference between real Islam and the distorted version of the extremists". Cameron needs a crash course in islamic theology, because the theology is extremist.I believe the attached link explains this fully -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ib9rofXQl6w&feature=player_embedded

We thought we were voting in a government with a totally new strategy but we find it is simply carrying on where the last lot left off. Funny is it not, that both governments should think along the same lines, especially as the spectre of immigration was large on the public's election agenda. So what is the common theme here? What is tying the Lab & Con/LDs EU policy as one?
None other than that arch enemy of the British people - the corrupt (in policy & thought)Foreign & Colonial Office. Our ministers are clearly dangerously ignorant of islamism, its history, its agenda, and so readily & eagerly accept the FCOs dictats without hesitation or questioning.
Thank goodness for France & Germany - they clearly understand what is at stake here; it is more than earning a dirty few quid in the short term, only to pay a dangerous price in the medium to long term.
Wake up Dave,start to learn about the subject you so clearly no nothing about, before it is too late for all of us.

Richard of Moscow

Sticks head above parapet:
Agree with Rod about regimes in Moslem countries, but I don't believe they're representative of Moslems in general, any more than bootlicker Blair was typical of British Christians.

Russia has 20 million Moslems, or about 15% of the population, and they're mostly Turkics and mostly fine. It is rare to encounter the kind of ranting Islamist prats which are all over the UK. The obvious exception, of course, being the terrorists financed by the Wahhabis, who are of course outsiders and were behind most Islamist butchery throughout the past few decades, and who were also the problem in British India. They are Saudi financed and I don't believe Arabs hold too much sway in Turkey.

I have Armenian colleagues who are based in Iran, and they say the Persians hate the mullahs, except when idiots like Obama start blubbering about their nuclear program, in which case patriotism kicks in.

In short, I doubt most Moslems give a toss whether Mehmet next door becomes a Jehovah's witness, or whether Ali over the road is a screaming bender.

I agree that far too many Moslems have a twisted, Mel Gibson-style attitude to women, but the same could be said of many Catholics.

Nicholas Hallam

Things are changing in Turkey and not necessarily for the better. The election of an Islamic government brought a shift away from the secular goals of Ataturk and reflected the fact that Turkey is becoming more Islamic. This is partly due to the influence of Saudi-funded Koranic schools and is exacerbated by demographic forces: the poorer more Islamic Anatolians are outbreeding the more western-oriented Istanbullu.

The alignment of Ankara with Hamas in Gaza and its turning away from its alliance with Israel illustrates this shift and should be a warning to the West.

hoob

Rod, spot on!

Mycroft

Actually I find it hard to believe that Cameron is not as aware of all this as anyone else; but if any Western politician wants to have any influence at all on the way in which Islam develops, he has to speak in such terms. Pointing out home truths merely puts people's backs up. Similarly in the past when politicians downplayed the amount of support that terrorist attacks like 9/11 enjoyed among British Muslims (they too will have seen the polls).

Helen Wright

He's talking out of his arse becuase IS an arse. That's why he talks crap.

I wish I hadn't voted for him. I certainly won't make that mistake again!

WetherspoonThree

@ startledcod..
If you apply the Eurovision Song Contest membership criteria, 'Europe' actually stretches to the northern shores of the Red Sea (Eilat) courtesy of Israel's presence in the competition. I have a suspicion that Europe also extends to the West Indies by virtue of some small French islands that are regarded as part of metropolitan France, but I may be wrong. I'm not sure what NATO is doing in Afganistan...surely not want that organisation was originally intended for.

Joe Strummer

Where are the marches and demos up and down Britain, never mind Turkey, from Cameron's " real Islamists" in support of the poor woman sentenced to death in Iran for her alleged adultery ?

Cameron is an idiot, and a very dangerous one at that.

John Steadman

Sometimes, Rod Liddle, you really do hit the nail bang on the head.

DougS

Dead right Rod.

CallMeDave's lost the plot.

Wish you wouldn't use words like 'Mong' - perhaps I've led a sheltered life but it cost me a trip to 'The Free Dictionary'

digbydolben

Oedipus Rex, you Europeans are pathetic, with your ridiculous "Londonistans" and other paranoid, provincial-minded hysterias. We in America have almost NO trouble assimilating reasonable, moderate-tempered Muslims into our society. Why do you suppose that is? Do you think it might have something to do with our making it VERY clear to any who want to come here that they WON'T sell their daughters into dowry marriages, and they WON'T wrap their women in burqua against their will? And do you know that we do that IN THEIR LANGUAGE--without any paranoid requirement that they learn ours, just to live here (as opposed to your chauvinistic requirements on the continent, at least).

And, Mr. Liddle, I was trying to be polite to you. Check out the editors' protocols of the NEW YORK TIMES: there every gentleman is addressed as "Mr." Addressing someone one doesn't know by his first name, is--at least here in America--considered to be loutish, especially in print.

Oh, and I don't know what a "mong" is, actually. Do you have to be "Euro-trash" to know what it is?

Dixon

Helen Wright
July 27th, 2010 7:02pm

"I wish I hadn't voted for him. I certainly won't make that mistake again!"

Nah, nah, nee nah, nah (Im doing a littlke jig as I nee nah) ...TOLD YOU (those who voted for him) SO!!!

Dixon

You should real.ise, Rod, that this post of yours may earn you the emnity and possible, probably unpleasant, future attentions of one Peter Tatchell, opponent of those who express views critical of Islam.

Frank P

Would someone please arrange a meeting between Cameron and Mark Steyn? Perhaps someone will hand him a copy of America Alone for the journey home.

I assume he can read? I sometimes wonder.

Nicholas; could you please revisit your staunch support for the pillock and if you're still convinced, please explain why? I know you had some reservations yourself, but like me, adjudged that the priority was to get Brown out of No.10. But as always, short term objectives are inevitably overtaken by long-term and often unforeseen consequences; what is beginning to emerge ain't pretty. Labour is able to regroup, rid itself of both the taint and tally of Brown's madness, then come back with renewed vigour at the first opportunity. It would, in many ways, have been better had they been left in power to suffer the consequences of their own scorched earth polices. Cameron's Carlton TV PR government, with the aid of LibDem leeches will suck the remaining blood from the nation and make halal meat of us for the predators who stand poised to claim our culture.

His utterances about Gaza and the boarding of the Turkish ships were both uninformed and inflammatory.

In2minds

"Not unusually, Cameron is talking out of his arse" - Shall we call it brownspeak or would that confuse?

Niels C

Turkey is on the way to a very important election.
What Cameron does with his remarks on Gaza is that he is taking side with Erdogan and AKP.
The the republican main opposition party is very critical of AKP involvement in the Gaza affair.
Cameron is hereby supporting a party which is deeply involved with IHH and Milli Gürüs, the first organization is just forbidden in Germany, and the second is on a close watch of the german verfassungsschutz.
And by the way Richard Dawkins homepage is inaccessible in Turkey due to religious censorship.
A nice bedfellow for a british Prime Minister.

Linda Smith

Rod, "a few decent liberal Muslim organisations in the UK"?

Every heard of taqqiya - lying to the infidel in the service of Islam?

For a scholarly exegesis of Islamic history, doctrine and practise in relation to events as they unfold, I recommend the writings of Andrew Bostom and Raymond Ibrahim. Plenty available on line.

Richard of Moscow

digbydolben, 'Londonistan' is usually the nickname given to the Tony Blair tactic of allowing Moslem extremists to use London as a base, in the hope that they'll think the UK is really nice and they won't attack it.
A bit like the Clinton era policy of helping Moslem extremists murder Christians in Kosovo and Bosnia, and yet it was one of those very same Moslems, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, who decided to kill thousands of your people in New York and Washington.

Londoners are 'Europeans' who live 'on the continent'? I think you're getting a bit confused.

Linda Smith

Sorry, "practice" (not "practise")

Linda Smith

"Turkey’s current Prime Minister Erdogan, commenting in August, 2007 on the term “moderate Islam,” frequently used in the West to describe his ruling political party, the AKP, stated, “These descriptions are very ugly, it is offensive and an insult to our religion. There is no moderate or immoderate Islam. Islam is Islam and that’s it.” Erdogan’s displeasure is ironic, even somewhat humorous, given the contemporary Western apologetic obsession to recast the terms “Islamism,” and “Islamist,” to denote, exclusively, “radical” or “immoderate” Islam, and its adherents. But the irony of Erdogan’s ire aside, artificial distinctions between “Islamism” and Islam, “Islamist” and Islamic are logically incoherent, obfuscating irrefragable truths about living Islamic dogma, and its modern manifestations.

The 1990 Cairo Declaration, or “Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Islam”—not Islamism—was drafted and ratified by all the Muslim member nations of the Organization of the Islamic—not Islamist—Conference (OIC), a 57 state collective including every Islamic nation on earth. The OIC, currently headed by Turkey’s Ekmeleddin Ihsanoglu, thus represents the entire Muslim ummah (or global community), and is the largest single voting bloc in the United Nations.

Its preamble and concluding articles (24 and 25) make plain that the OIC’s Cairo Declaration is designed to supersede Western conceptions of human rights as enunciated, for example, in the US Bill of Rights. The preamble repeats a Koranic injunction affirming Islamic supremacism, (Koran 3:110): “Reaffirming the civilizing and historical role of the Islamic Ummah which Allah made the best nation…” The gravely negative implications of this Islamic Law (Shari’a)-based document (“There shall be no crime or punishment except as provided for in the Shari’a”) are most apparent in its transparent rejection of freedom of conscience in Article 10, while articles 19 and 22 reiterate Shari’a principles stated throughout the document, which clearly apply to the “punishment”—death—for so-called “apostates” from Islam.
The Cairo Declaration—entirely consistent with Islamic Law—also introduces unacceptable discrimination against non-Muslims and women, while sanctioning the legitimacy of dehumanizing, Shari’a-compliant punishments, from flogging, to mutilation, and stoning."

Read the full article at http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2009/11/12/islamism-or-islam%e2%80%94islamist-or-islamic/

Robert Bruce Lewis

Richard of Moscow, in the opinion of most Americans, Londoners are, indeed, Europeans who DON'T "live on the continent."

Noa

Linda Smith 9.56pm

An excellent post. Thank you

Duncan W

Some common sense at last. Very insightful article.

john Norman

Do we really need a Turkey in the EU which may drag us into its own civil war with the Kurds. 30.000 of whom have already been murdered? Or the ethnic cleansing of Greek Cypriots, the seizure of their property and the settlement of 250.000 Anatolian farmers on Cypriot lands in their place?

Frank P

Melanie has just cleaned Cameron's clock over on her blog:

http://www.spectator.co.uk/melaniephillips/6171324/weep-for-britain-1940-this-is-not.thtml

Baron

Rod, you right, but Linda Smith righter.

not until the followers of Allah give up insisting that the Koran transcends man made laws for societal governance in every domain of life could any lasting and fertile accommodation between the two cultures occur.

digbydolben @ 1.39:

you would do better talking to plankton.

Gulfcoast Mandy

Secular West-friendly Turkey which is getting less secular and less Western-friendly by the minute...

Once again, I agree with Rod, hook line and sinker. What's going on, Rod? Am I becoming a Roddite? Say it ain't so.

Tariq

Currently, only Ahmadiyya sect teaches the true Islam - because they claim the Messiah has come and their religious teachings are better than the rest. It has been preaching peace for past 100 years (1889 - since the time when British ruled India). Ahmadiyya sect preaches peace and tolerance.

The solution to the problem stated in this article is that, YES, Muslims need to be taught Islam by non-muslims. Western writers instead of attacking Islamic teachings, they should be telling the Muslims that no, this wasn't the practice of your Prophet - maybe then these Muslims will understand.
http://www.loveforallhatredfornone.org/

Luddite

When is Turkey going to end it's illegal occupation of Northern Cyprus and allow the dispossessed the right of return.

Dalia

No Surprise here. The only western country that exported suicide bombers from its own citizens is the UK.

Lupus Lungfish

Free range Turkey in the EU?- I'll stick with Bernard Matthews BBQ drumsticks.

Sam B

Well said, Liddle.

Derek Pasquill

Cameron - del cul fatto trombetta (Dante, Inferno, XXI, 139)

Using his arse for a trumpet.

Marion Lee

David Cameron is treading on dangerous ground here. His 'loyal' advisers should provide him with a short lesson in Islamic ideology before he inflicts their barbaric way of life on us Brits. It seems Mr Cameron is being leant on by his coalition members to open the floodgates again. I certainly would not vote Tory in the future if this turns out to be the case. Carry on the good work Rod.

Dont need no fascist Muslims telling us what to think

While Cameron is sweet-talking the Turks and lecturing evil Jews about their heinous crimes, in Sharia Prison Camp Britain, the police work for far-right Mullahs:

'Members of the English Defence League, a group which takes as its sole agenda opposition to the ferocious encroachments of far-right Islam, and far-right Muslims, within the land of Great Britain, endured the spectacle of armed British police, apparently willing to appease those far-right Muslims, fire on unarmed EDL members who were protesting against far-right Islam." (Bournemouth Echo, slightly amended)

Eddie

When will the powers that be (the BBC, the authorities, local councils, the government) start challenging extremists who happen to be Muslim and Asian. When? If many of these radical Muslims were white and non-religious, they'd be called racist bigots - but their religion and ethnic idenity seems to provide them with an invisible force field which means they are never ever challenged.

Instead, the socalled 'liberal' left supports them in the extremism and even criticises anyone who make them angry for 'disrespecting' their version of Islam (Hirst Ali, Rushdie) when it is the victims of Islamic extremism who should be supported by all REAL liberal-minded people. The BBC has in effect banned all criticism of Islam, all jokes about Islam, and invites extremist muslims onto its political panel shows - people with views way more extreme than the BNP's.

Time of a big rethink, methinks. People should be treated equally and Muslims should not be allowed to get away with demanding special treatment in the UK or internationally.

Turkey join the EU? No, because it is not is Europe and does not have European values or traditions. Australia and New Zealand and Hong Kong joining would make much more sense.

Mike

I can't believe the drivel that some of the Islamist apologists have commented here as we can all see the real Islam for what it stands for in most Islamic countries and its still living in the dark ages.

As far as Turkey is concerned, there's a dichotomy of opposites from a country that is trying to be western in nature but still Islamic at heart. People that haven't been there have no conception of the differences between an EU Christian country and Turkey although I'll give them one plus point, and thats the banning of full face coverings. The country does indeed have two parts, an east and a west and the government in power have been draconian in trying to keep the country together in a benign version of Saddam Hussein rule. Just as Saddam was an OK guy before 9-11 even though it had nothing to do with him, Turkey is in the same boat, they are useful to the west as an Islamic buffer.

Cameron and others conveniently forget two major issues over Turkey joining the EU, one is their record on human rights (re Kurds) and the other is Cyprus. The UN backed by Britain & America voted for Turkey to give up the northern part of the Island but middle east concerns and having US bases in Turkey meant no action was taken. Western leaders including Cameron are opportunists and letting Turkey join the club legalises their invasion of Cyprus and their human rights record.

Although Islam is of some concern, there are a raft of other issues surrounding Turkeys admittance that still have to be resolved and DC is way out of his depth on this one.

Oedipus Rex

@ Richard of Moscow:
"digbydolben, 'Londonistan' is usually the nickname given to the Tony Blair tactic of allowing Moslem extremists to use London as a base"

It was in the early and mid 90's that the intense radicalization - at the Finsbury Park Mosque, for example - got under way and lax or non-existent monitoring of 'visitors', etc.
John Major's govt. has as much, if not more, to blame for this situation.

@ Digby Dolben,

Welcome back my friend. You must be new to this thread if you are taken aback by the robust language found herein. Let me introduce you to some of our local customs: Rod, or 'Mr' Liddle, is well known for his forthright and direct style so reminiscent of the comportment of his fellow supporters at his local 'soccer' sports club where, sadly now less common, the verve and enthusiasm of said supporters would cause them to relieve the stadium of its ill-designed plastic seating and to engage sportingly with the opposing visitors in a test of manhood and chivalry until the mounted constabulary would bring the lively proceedings to an unfortunate halt. In this arena, the language and etiquette that is promoted by the NY Times was often forgotten, if not studiously avoided.

I note you do not address the content of the blog or our responses but in modest reply to your accusations of 'paranoia' and 'provincialism' let me explain that indeed, we are a small country - we easily fit into one US state with the area of Michigan, say - but with an ever growing population of 60+ million of which about 2 - 3 million are muslims.
As you may have noticed, many of us have no problems with those who have integrated and contribute positively to our lives but we are increasingly aware that, unlike our Hindu, Sikh, Jewish, etc friends and neighbours, there is a tendency amongst those that adhere to Islam to demand 'special' privileges such as measures of shariah law imposed in certain neighbourhoods - 'localism' as our New Government would have it.
I wish you in the US well with Islam in its many guises (the 'Nation of Islam' being one - albeit one that I believe has no wish to integrate with anyone, save itself).

You write: "Do you think it might have something to do with our making it VERY clear to any who want to come here that they WON'T sell their daughters into dowry marriages, and they WON'T wrap their women in burqua against their will? And do you know that we do that IN THEIR LANGUAGE--without any paranoid requirement that they learn ours, just to live here"

This is strange in that we, and I believe you, cannot enforce dress codes or marriage proposals upon people - land of the free, and all that. We, too, allow immigrants to speak their own languages, even some streets in London have their signs written in Bengali.
Yet despite our openness and tolerance some Muslims wish to, or have, blown us up on public transport, taking with them as many innocent souls as is possible and for pretty spurious reasons. Maybe you should follow in the footsteps of another American, Daniel Pearl, to learn the limits of tolerance - he was decapitated in Pakistan by a British raised & educated Pakistani.

Oh. Enjoy your Empire while it lasts -they have a tendency to come back and haunt you.

Paul Henry

David Cameron visits Washington and has a meeting with President Obama. In true poodle fashion he then visits Turkey and (ignoring its appalling human rights record and issues such as the Armenian genocide, Cyprus and the Kurds) makes a ridiculously grandiose statement about how he fully supports Turkish integration into the EU.

David Cameron criticised those who see the world as a ‘clash of civilisations’ and said: “They see no difference between real Islam and the distorted version of the extremists.”

He went on to say “They think the values of Islam can never be compatible with the values of other religions, societies or cultures.”

The “values” of the Islam are codified in Sharia Law that treats Women as second class chattel; endorse the stoning to death of homosexuals and adulterers; and states that the penalty for apostasy (for the “crime” of changing your mind and becoming a non-believer or converting to another faith) is death.

If David Cameron is in any doubt about any of those Islamic “values” then he only has to talk to any Muslim to confirm that this is the case. Many Muslims I have spoken to live in fear of their own “communities” (here in the UK) because of the penalty for apostasy.

This is why Islam, like any theocracy that seeks to enforce religious law on all, can never ever be compatible with living in a secular Western democracy.

Most patronising of all he then went on to say that "All these arguments are just plain wrong. I want us to be at the forefront of an international effort to defeat them."

Apart from the fact that he hasn’t advanced any arguments as to why he believes those arguments to be wrong, he is in plain denial of the vast mountain of evidence that clearly demonstrate that Islam is directly at odds with any democracy – least of all in Turkey itself.

The only international effort that is required is for the UK, France, Germany, Austria and other EU countries to stand up to US pressure and tell them that who the EU chooses to accept as a member is a matter for the EU alone and has nothing to do with the US.

Before making any speeches of how we should let Turkey in to the EU perhaps Mr. Cameron would be democratic enough to actually consult with the people in the UK who will be directly affected by it.

Nathan Taylor

It would be very ironic that as a supposedly EU sceptic, Cameron is making unreasonable demands on the other EU members as to who should be let in to the EU but then the US wants this to happen so this is why we have this incredibly selective argument from David Cameron that blatantly ignores the Armenian genocides, Cyprus, the Kurds and the sheer logistics of coping with the sheer volume of new migrants from a radically Islamic country.

France and Germany are absolutely right to insist that Turkey is unable to join just on the account of its human rights records alone (state censorship and torture still takes place in Turkey) so they will, quite rightly, simply ignore our new US poodle of a PM.

After this appalling speech that willfully misunderstands the problem with Turkey's membership then maybe we should ignore him as well.

Graham Booth

Real Oedipus Rex @ 3.33: 'Surely 'Real' Islam, just as 'Real' Christianity, etc can only be described as the original texts as everything else since is only interpretation?'
Well, there is a vast difference between the developmental aspects of Christianity and Islam. As Jim Goad mentions, in his latest 'Taki Magazine' piece; 'I was around sixteen when I stopped believing in Jesus Christ as my savior. I reached the point where I’d read enough of the Bible to realize it contained several items that couldn’t possibly be true simultaneously. For instance, no infallible God would establish an “eternal” covenant, only to change His mind, revoke it later, and then suddenly pull a New Covenant out of his ass. A perfect God simply wouldn’t roll like that.'
His words, quite apart from the fact they made me laugh out loud, are key to this matter. Islam was started by a guy who declared himself to be god's final prophet. Christianity was/is a synthesis of the latest (then - in N Testament times) strands of ever-developing Judaism, and the eastern mystery cults, especially of Attis and Cybele, Isis and Osiris. An incarnated, dying and resurrected god, with ritual blood-drinking, coupled to the traditions of Judaism, shorn of its requirement that male converts must have half their cocks chopped off. Saul of Tarsus brilliantly spotted an opportunity to create a killer brand, and the rest is history.
But his theologising massively offended all Jews - no aspect could have been better calculated to do this than his mischievous device of ritual blood-drinking. To Jews, blood equals life, and must never be touched, much less drunk. It was forbidden, for example, for a man to share his wife's bed when she was menstruating. Along comes Saul of Tarsus, falls out with James the Just (Jesus's brother) and suddenly comes up with not just blood-drinking, but ritual - albeit symbolic - blood drinking of James's own brother! One of history's greatest, if almost universally unrecognised acts of revenge!
I need scarcely add that given this most contentious start, Christianity was set on a course which would ever after result in division, disunity, rivalry and schism; massively different from the almost immutable basis of Islam.
Indeed the three strands of reform which allowed Christianity to step back from its history of burning heretics and unmarried women over the age of thirty (witches to you guv) and generally to become far less terrifying, namely the Reformation, the Enlightenment and secularism, in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries, cannot conceivably occur within Islam.
A terrible mediaeval dystopia awaits to devour the supine rump of western enlightenment, I fear.

Mark Palmer

David Cameron is parroting the usual faith-befuddled "Islam is mis-understood" rubbish that the other main political parties patronise their constituents with.

It occurs to me that the gulf between what the Political Class (with its self-indulgent Lawrence of Arabia fantasies) and the much abused voters actually want is so wide on this particular issue that some sort of campaign needs to be launched.

If our elected representatives refuse to stand up to US pressure to further their foreign policy objectives then we need a grass roots movement that will force them to.

If anyone knows how to organise and publicise an E Petition or organise a Facebook campaign then I would be a more than willing helper.

Matt Pryor

Thank you Rod, great piece. I agree with you, Cameron's speech was very alarming indeed.

digbydolben

Oedipus Rex, first of all, I'd like to say that I really appreciate your civil tone and patience--so glaringly different from our kind host's--in responding to me. Yours is the manner that I'd come to expect from most Brits, when visiting your beautiful country.

Now, I'd like to remind you--and all the Islamophobes on this thread, who seem to be utterly panicked by the behaviours, in your country, of the kinds of recalcitrant, unassimilating Muslims whom you have mistakenly attempted to naturalize in your country, of the attitudes of Churchill and Thatcher during the periods of previous "terrorist" threats: they consistently REFUSED to be "panicked" and they told your previous generations that, if they DID allow themseleves to change laws and customs in the face of such threats (from the Nazis and the IRA) then the "terrorists" would have won. Both Thatcher and Churchill were influenced by American political culture, and they both may have been remembering the dictum of Benjamin Franklin: "Those who care more for their security than their liberties deserve NEITHER."

Finally, I'd like to suggest that some of you should take a look at the very fine writing on the subject of Islam by one of your greatest travel-writers, William Dalrymple. He can make it clear to you that there is tremendous diversity in what goes under the generic name of "Islam"; no Muslim from Turkey influenced by one of the great dervish traditions (Jallalud'Din Rumi, et.al.) would harm a hair on any of your heads, and none of the saint-worshipping Sufis of the Indian subcontinent, who are so persecuted by the Taliban would, either. I have myself lived twice in South Asia and will soon be returning there again, to teach in an international school. From experience, I am far more afraid of the partisans of "Hindutva" and of the remnants of the RSS than I am of Muslims--who make up, on the subcontinent, the second-largest population of devotees of that religion on earth. Many of you are actually slandering one of the most pacific, industrious and courteous peoples on earth. In terms of respect for education, respect for "free market values" and industriousness, THOSE Muslims (again, from the SECOND LARGEST POPULATION of them on earth) are more similar to what Jews USED to be, in both America and Britain, before the period of Likudnik domination of Israel's politics. You are tarring good people with the same brush that you legitimately use on truly bad folks.

Hugh

When it comes to telling the truth Cameron deserves credit for at least saying the truth about Gaza. Expect the usual Israel Firsters to go into hysterics that anyone criticised an action by their beloved country.

Harry Bennett

Looks like Dave is turning out to be even more of a disappointment than I expected. Well said Rod!

The Masked Marvel

digbydolben, the nasty Zionists must have the most pathetic and least successful ethnic cleansing campaign in history, seeing as how there are more and more Palestinians every day. Still, the Joooos, the Joooos, eh?

John Saunders

The truth with regard to Turkey is that the British 'Trojan Horse' is as usual doing the bidding of it's American master! Thank heavens France and Germany aren't America's 'puppets' too! Turkey is a corrupt,undemocratic nation with an appalling human rights record, but stands at the end of a lucrative oil pipeline from central Asia. This is why the Americans are so keen on her, and America's 51st state is under orders to get her into the EU! All power to France and Germany!

David Ossitt

Load of old bollocks.

Ramon Lull

Mr Liddle is completely right.

Keith

From daily experience I would say that people no longer consider that the organised religions hold the moral and ethical high ground.
There is no evidence that the organised religions have higher standards of behaviour than the non religious and it is my opinion that the religions have lower standards because they are influenced by doctrines which are based on unproven claims to links to divinity so we should not allow our lives to be governed by supposition or the gullibilities Prime Ministers.

Eddie

John Saunders. You do know, doncha, that France deliberately does not get involved in any attempt to stop Islamic terrorism because it wants the contracts in the middle east from the Muslim Arabs?

You do know too that Germany is full of Turks and is against Turkey joining the EU simply to stop hoardes of poor Turks flooding German cities.

Seems not. Grow up eh. Your anti-British rhetoric may impress the student debating society sonny, but this is the real world now.

alexei

@ Mr. Digbydolben

"We in America have almost NO trouble assimilating reasonable, moderate-tempered Muslims into our society."

I think such a belief lies in the category of self-delusional or willful blindness. Every day in the US, one reads of instances of just how very far some Muslims are from assimilating into American society, from the murder of disobedient daughters or wives to the discriminatory practices of Muslim taxi drivers, not to mention the ongoing stream of suspected terrorists being brought to trial. Many websites keep a tally of such incidents, but donâ™t bother looking in the NYT for such news.
And as for your American expectations concerning a recommended dress-code, every major American city now sports women in black burkas. Indeed, I once saw dozens of them out for a picnic in the wilds of the Oregon countryside on a sweltering hot day. How they must have enjoyed wearing their sun-soaking apparel. As far as leaning over backwards in the language translating department, you clearly have NO IDEA about the prevailing situation in Britainâ™s major cities, with texts of local government info. translated into multiple languages, schools and hospitals providing free translators etc.
@ Mr. Digbydolben

"We in America have almost NO trouble assimilating reasonable, moderate-tempered Muslims into our society."

I think such a belief lies in the category of self-delusional or willful blindness. Every day in the US, one reads of instances of just how very far some Muslims are from assimilating into American society, from the murder of disobedient daughters or wives to the discriminatory practices of Muslim taxi drivers, not to mention the ongoing stream of suspected terrorists being brought to trial. Many websites keep a tally of such incidents, but donâ™t bother looking in the NYT for such news.
And as for your American expectations concerning a recommended dress-code, every major American city now sports women in black burkas. Indeed, I once saw dozens of them out for a picnic in the wilds of the Oregon countryside on a sweltering hot day. How they must have enjoyed wearing their sun-soaking apparel. As far as leaning over backwards in the language translating department, you clearly have NO IDEA about the prevailing situation in Britainâ™s major cities, with texts of local government info. translated into multiple languages, schools and hospitals providing free translators etc.

Fergus Pickering

I would have thought that Cameron is doing rather well here. He can gain lots of brownie points with the Turks, which he seems to want to do, while knowing there is not the slightest chance that the French will EVER let Turkey int the EU. So really I don't see what you lot are worying about. Of course this stuff about real Islam is bollocks. But it is a necessity for politicians to talk bollocks at least half the time. Most things don't matter at all, said Balfour, Prime Minister and (I think) Foreign Secretary for years and bloody years. This is one of those things that don't matter at all.

John Saunders

You're the one who should grow up 'Eddie'! Since the Second World War Britain has been doing America's bidding, a fact not unconnected with the huge loan they imposed on us in exchange for a few old ships in 1941! This loan was only paid off 3 years ago! In addition, Churchill shared all our intelligence with the Americans and handed over a number of vital military bases to them in exchange for their war support.All this has made us totally dependent on the USA, and as a result we follow their lead slavishly.My rheteoric is not anti-British,it is anti the politicians who have put us in this subservient state.We see this subservience now with Turkey,a third-world nation of 80 million people,seen by the American corporations as cheap labour in their European subsidiaries! I suggest,Eddie, you swot up on your History,Geography, and Economics,you seem to be the student!

digbydolben

Alexei, I didn't say there were no burqua-clad women in the U.S.A. I said that nobody can FORCE a woman to wear one here and get away with it. Also, you may be right about there being no language barriers in the U.K. for immigrants to deal with, but try living in Germany (as I recently did) without making a very serious effort to learn German--which will cost YOU, not your employer or the state--and see what happens (unless, of course, you can pull the stunt of claiming EU citizenship and then stay out of every single village and hamlet in the country, wherein the regulations about language-learning are brutally enforced against Turks. In my country such a language requirement for citizenship has been ruled unconstitutional by our Supreme Court. And perhaps the reason we have such a large population of civil, well-behaved Muslims living here is that we DO swiftly bring the non-compliant to trial, as you mention. Bringing the religious fanatics to swift and certain justice means that the population of Muslims whom we value and want to see INCREASE in our country are free to REFUSE to conform to "Shariah law."

Stuart Seacole Smith

Have been thinking about Cameron's utterances, and I'm not happy.

When he talks of European duplicity on Turkey, try past (Blair) British duplicity. That Dave's chosen to keep this going astonishes me. No other serious EU member has supported Turkey joining. If the concept is to weaken the EU, there are other ways, or just get out altogether. If the idea is that an Islamic dominated EU will leave the UK unscathed, this is patently ridiculous. That the BBC smilingly refers to this as just "ruffling EU feathers" tells you everythig you need to know.

Cameron's whitterings on the prison of palestine are plain bollux, and indicative of attitude.

Thinking in other countries -
France: terrified, they're living the dream right now with a much higher % of muslims than any other EU country
Germany: smart enough to see where it's going
USA: want Turkey in. Motive? Unlikely to be in UK or EU interest.
UK: pathetically and embarassingly enough, US lapdog and trojan horse, hoping for a biscuit. And Cameron looking like caving on immigation cap to boot. Vince C should be told to stick it or go, but with a delicate coalition who's got the plums to tell him and mean it?

The fact is that the true horror of what "the great and the good" have unleashed on the the west (and Europe in particular) through islamic immigration is just so unspeakable that they dare not admit it.

Eddie

John Saunders - I need no lectures and history lessons from you matey! I probably have forgotten more history than you know; and you are following the typical anti-British bleating of the left, slagging of Britain and bigging up other countries. I have merely reminded you that France and Germany are not the Utopian independent countries you seem to think they are: France bases her decisions solely on her financial gain - because the French wnat contracts in Arab countries; The Germans were bankrolled by the USA for years too, and also make decisions solely based on their economy. THAT is why these countries do not want Turkey to join the EU.

Grow up and learn to see the big picture matey. Your post is predicable leftist bleating, devoid of any historical of economic insight.

And by the way, I fully support Britain being more independednt of the US and feel strongly that we should tell the anti-British racist Barack al-Obama where to stick it! I also believe the UK should be protectionist and introduce a law banning foreign companies from taking over companies in certain UK sectors (eg Cadbury). Personally, I feel that values should override business interests - so no, Turkey should not join the EU; no, we should not turn a blind eye to Islamic extremism; no, we should no be America's poodle.

Andy Gill

I agree with every word Rod. Cameron is clueless about Islam. The Real Islam? It's like the Real IRA.

Anthony

I disagree with Cameron on many things but his foreign policy has, thus far been spot on!

StevenRA

Yes he is letting his hind parts do the talking here. But I wonder why?
Is he lying out of some Machiavellian instinct that thinks he can wring more benefits and concessions out of the Turks with flattery than he can with honesty? Not so atypical for a politician if that is the case. I fear the true case is, sadly that he simply has not bothered to study Islamic theology and history sufficiently, if at all, and is stupidly content to accept the fork-tongued assurances of Muslim advisers.

Rupert Fotherington-Smythe

Well said, Rod. Very well said.

John.

The last attempt by the Turks to take over Europe was when they were chased from the walls of Vienna by the tiny army of Jan Sobievski, king of Poland and Lithuania in 1683. How they must be laughing now!

digbydolben

Masked Marvel, you REALLY don't think that the Israelis are involved in ethnic cleansing? Then maybe you need to take a look at this:

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2010/07/a-town-is-razed-in-israel.html

In my books, this "Judaizing" of Palestinian land is the moral equivalent of the "de-Judaizing" that went on in Europe in the 40s of the last century--no difference in terms of intent.

Moss

Quite. Funny that Mr Cameron's position as PM is exactly the same on this issue as was the previous two Labour PMs'. Why should this be? Why would each PM in turn take a contrary position to the their electorate?

Then again...Islam is a growth industry in this country. Has he got shares in Burka manufacuting? Or....does Mr C also ascribe to the leftwing one world in a country dream future for England?

Baron

Has Cameron visited Gaza recently, or is it the BBC that furnishes the insider knowledge?

Verity

Joe Strummer, yes, some of us have been saying that Cameron is an idiot on many levels for a couple of years now.

Linda Smith is correct about dhimmitude. She is also correct to mention taqqya, which is usually accompanied by kitman ... lying and deceit in the service of allah. For example, it is not only OK, but admirable and scores major points with all, to lie under oath, on the q'ran, if it is to advance the cause of islam. That is why muslims must never be allowed to swear on their q'ran in a court of law in a civilised country.

Meanwhile, for those who don't know, the whole point of "up to four wives, if you can afford them" (plus slave girls)is not to accord playboy treats to islamic men, but to breed warriors for allah. That is the whole point. Breeding an ever larger conquering army.

Something tells me this is something else that Dave doesn't know.

Richard of Moscow

Regarding British - Moslem relations, Good Queen Bess sent envoys to Istanbul in 1583 to explain the closeness of Protestantism and Islam, and only a century ago many Persians wanted to be under the British Empire, Afghanistan was pro-British (or respectful of the British, after our decisive victory at the Battle of Kandahar) and a few decades earlier in India- as Oedipus Rex's chum William Dalrymple has written - many Moslems welcomed British rule. It only went tits up when clumsy Christian missionaries triggered a backlash in the form of increased Wahhabism.

In short, we would probably have no problems with the Moslem world if we hadn't joined in every time the US made an idiotic intervention.

Great topic, Rod. Moslems, UK foreign policy, the EU, Cameron and Obama's BS ... the perfect themes for making one's blood boil. If you'd somehow weaved in FIFA, New Labour, and Alex Ferguson, I think my head would've exploded.

William Boyd

Missed this first time round.

I sympathise a little with your views and the various points you make are all strictly valid but the point is that in normal times in practice they are not.

It's the perverting influence of the House of Saud's Wahhabi pact, the corrupting effect of Egypt's relentless persecution of the Muslim Brotherhood and the failed, essentially Marxist (imagine) revolution in Iran which taken together have created this present poisonous brew of Islamic extremism.

To take just the gay issue you mention: in practice Islam doesn't recognise any sort of gay identity (as indeed the West did not before around Stonewall 1969). But traditionally Muslims do not interfere in private affairs. It is quite normal and accepted in Muslim society for men to live together and if in private as lovers then that is their affair so long as it does not interfere with public morals. The reality is that homosexual behaviour is extremely common and unremarkable throughout the Muslim world. Read for example Naguib Mahfouz's celebrated 'The Cairo Trilogy' (Ridwan's relationship with Isa Pasha)or closer to home Antony Burgess' splendid Ibrahim in 'The Malayan Trilogy'.

The issue of women's rights is plainly a divison between us and them that cannot be overlooked but you cannot just impose human rights on a community with a few well-meaning lectures backed by economic sanctions perhaps to concentrate the finer instincts, still less achieve it militarily. They develop as a consequence of social revolutions and their moral basis in religions such as Judeo-Christianity is not nearly as significant as such as your Melanie Phillipses would have us believe. How does Ms. Phillips explain that human rights haven't developed in the same way in Islamic society as it did with us when the moral basis of Islam shares the same Ibrahamic roots? That is unanswerable however she attempts to gloss it (unfortunately she confounds ethics and morality - for all her pounding away at stupids she is in reality often confused and naive herself and as we all know one addicted to a selective perusal of the evidence - Wikipedia's 'confirmation bias', ordinary folks' 'daft as a bat' ).

Islam is still a young religion. It has yet to reach it fourteenth hundred birthday and at the equivalent point in the Christian calendar Bloody Mary was burning heretics at the stake in our country while over the waters in Germany Luther had yet to castigate his seminary as a brewery and whore-house and to nail his colours to the cathedral door in
Wittenberg.

David Cameron in his speech was attacking the view of those who believe in a 'clash of civilasations'. I don't think he's naive about the problems of Islamic militancy and his comments in India about Pakistan's involvement with it demonstrates that I think.

I rather like him truth to tell. I do think he is making a decent effort at finding new trading partners and opening up new markets for us and it pains me that you've characterised him in this piece as talking out of his arse.

gareth

great post Rod - well done, in telling the truth you are a becoming a bone fide radical.

We all know the truth when we hear it somehow, which is why our tenured elites don't really connect with anyone outside of their wine tasting soirees. i wish you'd do more to set the record straight on Israel - for all our sakes - please.

And was Jerusalem builded here?

John Saunders

Eddie you must be a man of outstanding intellect to have forgotten more History than me { an MA in History and Politics from London University)! Do you truly imagine that I am naive enough to consider France and Germany 'paragons of virtue'. When have I ever said that? The fact remains ,however, that they are our best hope of keeping this corrupt,third-world country, Turkey, out of the EU! As I have tried to point out to you, Britain is too compromised in it's relationship with the USA to do anything but back Turkey's case.As for me being anti-British, nothing could be further from the case. I am merly furious that the politicians of all parties drag our country into line behind the USA on every conceivable occassion.I have to say I resent your line of personal abuse that shows a certain immaturity. Ironically, yopu and I seem to agree over Turkey and the EU and about our subservience to America, so what's your problem?

The Revd. Brian Stowe

Nothing excuses the vulgar and unacceptable last reference to the Prime Minister !

Mrs S Wilson

I wouldn't have used the language in the final sentence of this item, but I do agree that our government are walking blindfold into a Muslim-dominated Britain, which is exactly the stated aim of Islam.

rod liddle

Doesn't it, Rev? Sorry.

Linda Smith

William Boyd asks “How does Ms. Phillips explain that human rights haven’t developed in the same way in Islamic society as it did with us when the moral basis of Islam shares the same Ibrahamic roots?”

I don’t know what Ms Phillips would reply, but here’s my answer.

Islam claims it is the true religion and asserts that the mendacious Jews and Christians distorted their scriptures. This explains away the fact that the coming of Islam is not heralded by the Jewish and Christian prophets and is the basis for the Koranic/Islamic vilification of Jews and Christians.

The moral basis of Judeo-Christianity is that all human beings are equal. Islam is governed by immutable Sharia law which asserts that the Muslim male has superiority over women and non-Muslims. Hence human rights cannot develop in the same way as ours. The OIC refuse to adhere to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights as it is incompatible with Islam. Instead they have adopted their own discriminatory Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam.

William Boyd says “Islam is still a young religion”. Islam’s age is irrelevant. Islam cannot reform without jettisoning the Koran and Hadiths, the Islamic instruction manual. That would entail throwing out the baby with the bathwater - rather like Christians saying that Jesus wasn't the son of god and rose from the dead etc. No religion left at all.

COLINC

If Turkey joins the EU it will be fatal for both the EU and Turkey.They would have no hope of controlling their religious fanatics who would also be free to spread their poison in Europe if they joined the EU.

Richard of Moscow

Oedipus Rex,
"It was in the early and mid 90's that the intense radicalization - at the Finsbury Park Mosque, for example - got under way and lax or non-existent monitoring of 'visitors', etc.
John Major's govt. has as much, if not more, to blame for this situation."

Thank you for the correction, I apologise, I remember now violence breaking out in one of the Luton mosques due to an attempted takeover by undesirables, way back in 1992. I think my nostalgia for the nineties is giving me a selective memory.

Call me Dave has really lost the plot now. His anti-Israel jibe is like something you hear from those mongs (lovely word!) at the FCO

Augustus

The MSM focuses on terrorism because those acts are, of course, extremely newsworthy. But terrorist violence by jihadis is only the tip of the iceberg. Underneath the radar is a huge political movement going on, undermining freedoms and aiming relentlessly at gaining concessions for Muslims everywhere. And there is no need to try to guess the purpose of all this because jihadis state their goals openly and fervently, and they have one primary goal. It's a goal Allah has given all Muslims, and one which Allah expects all Muslims to participate in: The establishment of the Law of Allah throughout the world.

Eddie

Any religion based on an old book cobbled together in a desert hundreds of years ago can be interpreted in a multitude of ways - and that is true for Islam, and Christianity and Judaism too.

The problem is that the koran is promoted by Muslims as the LITERAL word of god/allah as transmitted to the illiterate warlord mohammed in the 7th century, so according to 'modern' puritanical muslims it must be followed to the letter! Of course, the koran approves of slavery and child sex as well as a multitude of other behaviour unacceptable in the modern world. There lies the problem - especially when billions of Saudi oil dollars have been spent in recent decades promoting to the muslim world that there is only one 'true'version of Islam: the Wahabi literalist puritan sect that the Saudis adopted in a deal to control that land 200 years ago.

Sadly, Islam has not had its reformation and 'protestant moment' (we would not have the modern world of democracy either if we'd stayed under the thumb of corrupt dictators in Rome).

But if one looks to the golden age of the Arabs 1000 years ago (often wrongly called the golden age of Islam...) one can see that Muslims then could separate their religious devotion from their interest in the rational world of science (building on knowledge and learning from ancient Greek and Roman texts translated into Arabic by Christians and Jews in those Muslim ruled societies). They drank alcohol too and did artistic representations of living things, and certainly did not pray 5 times a day or cover themselves in burkas!

But, to be fair, all these muslims who state that the 'real' islam is NOT about killing kafirs and violent jihad are no more right or wrong than those muslims who state that it is. Islam can mean anything you want it to mean. 'Real Islam' is a meaningless nonsense phrase.

So what to do about the problems of Islam in the UK and elsewhere? No idea - but the fact Muslims do not protest daily about the abuses of Islam does rather suggest that because of the 'Ummah' all Muslim behaviour worldwide is approved of by UK Muslims and that is worrying. Perhaps we just need to monitor UK Muslims forever to check they are not planning terrorism jihad. Arrest any that may even possibly pose a threat. Perhaps even encourage some who hate the UK to leave forever too?

And Turkey IS NOT EUROPE so how can it be a member of the EU? Australia has a greater claim to join after all! Could Turkey not just be a 'trusted friend' and trading partner? That would allow trade but stop mass immigration from Turkey to Western Europe. The situation already exists with the USA, for example. Why not the middle way?

Augustus

Eddie - "So what to do about the problems of Islam in the UK and elsewhere?"

How about rewriting the Koran?

M Manning

It is a warrying fact that our leaders from all parties are either totally ignorent of greater Islam or are in complete denial of the reality. This is highly dangerous and I wonder what will have to happen to convince them. The thought of how it will effect immigration here is horriying!

Eddie

Augustus - the Koran is as it is, as is the Bible which recommends behaviour unacceptable today (esp in Leviticus and Deutoronomy - feeding disobedient children to bears, anyone? Killing anyone who tries to persuade you to follow another religion?).

The difference is: in Western countries the rule of law has been dominant (esp in Britain), there has been separation of law and state, and the protestant reformation emphasised yet more that the bible is open to interpretation.

Islam has been ossified since the 11th century. Ironically, it was, a century or two before that, far more modern than it is now: the Islamic scientists of 1000 years ago had no problem separating their Muslim belief from their rational consideration of the natural world and society. In the same way, catholics today take contraceptives and do not do whatever popey say, but still are members of that church.

Compare the Muslim scientists of 1000 years ago (who built on Greek and Roman knowledge translated into arabic by christians and jews and other non-muslims) with the nonsense of 'universities' in Pakistan where socalled scientists so research and write papers trying to calculate the temperature of hell and to 'prove' that every word of the koran is literally true: the closed mind of devoted religion does not site well (or at all) with Reason and Science.

The Muslims of 1000 years ago also drank alcohol, as did the 7th century warlord mohammed. Shame most muslims (in my experience) are UTTERLY ignorant of this or any version of Islam that is not the puritanical, literalist, conservative version of Islam promoted worldwide in recent decades by Saudi petrodollars.

Tony whynot

A number of years ago I took the family foe a marvellous holiday to Bodrum. We found a wonderful waterside cake and coffee place and were soon chatting to a very good english-speaking turkish student who was our waiter. Even though he had a wide knowledge of the west, he was totally ignorant of the massacre of 1.5 million Armenian Christians back in 1915. he thought I must be a little mad to think such a thing could ever have happened.

What of today, have they even admitted it now?

Here is a link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-479143/The-forgotten-Holocaust-The-Armenian-massacre-inspired-Hitler.html

Richard of Moscow

Tony whynot, not only does Turkey refuse to recognise the mass annihilation of the Armenians (a joint Turkish-Kurdish-German operation, by the way) but Tony Blair and Bill Clinton also refused to recognise it, after pressure from Turkey. An act of appalling cowardice, even for those two.

In France, it is illegal to deny the genocide of the Armenians, while in Turkey it is illegal to claim it happened. Both laws are surely signs of backward regimes.

Eddie

Tony - you were brave mentioning the Armenian holocaust in Turkey! A Turk would probably get arrested for that! You see, according to the Turks it never happened and the 1.5 million Christian Armenians just died of disease (which miraculously did not affect the Muslim Turks who lived in the same places...).

Peter Smith

Whichever orifice Cameron using to verbalise, he clearly had no idea either of the enormous threat posed by Islam, nor of the current state of minorities in Turkey.

Islam is a threat simply because the Koran spews hatred and contempt for non-Muslims. That is why "moderate" Muslims are so quiet - if they speak up they are accused of apostasy in contradicting the Koran. No amount of co-operation and appeasement will change that. Indeed, the Koran encourages adherents to lie and scheme if it is for the advancement of Islam.

The justice system in Europe has been corrupted enough as it is; let Turkey in as the largest single member and soon we will have the EEC forcing sharia law on all states.

Linda Smith

Eddie, you’re dead right, the “golden age” of a tolerant Islam is a myth:

“Almost 850 years ago, elaborating on the depth of Muslim hatred for the Jews in his era, Maimonides (in ~ 1172 C.E.) made this profound observation regarding the Jewish predilection for denial, a feature that he insists will hasten their destruction.

'We have acquiesced, both old and young, to inure ourselves to humiliation…All this notwithstanding, we do not escape this continued maltreatment [by Muslims] which well nigh crushes us. No matter how much we suffer and elect to remain at peace with them, they stir up strife and sedition.'

The Jews and their communal leaders like Maimonides living under Islamic rule in the Middle Ages—vanquished by jihad, isolated, and well-nigh defenseless under the repressive system of dhimmitude—can be excused for their submissive denial.”

http://www.andrewbostom.org/blog/2008/10/01/islam%e2%80%99s-jew-hating-hadith-matter-today/

James Butterwick

Inspired journalism and entirely right. The truth that dares not utter its name (in public) a truth that brooks no debate. Can not one Western scholar come up with an 'real' analysis of the Koran?

solomon

of course it is not political corrctness,it is simpliy foolshiness or cowardice,it is not far fitched uk will be islam and the flag will be changed with in 10 years...to sheria,in 2010 only many terrorists arrived in uk with their strategies...

John,

James Butterwick: Perhaps not western politicians - yet - but there are these anslyses available - Robert Spencer's "Complete Infidel's Guide to the Koran", Ibn Warraq's "Why I Am Not A Muslim" and the relevant chapter in Sam Harris's "The End of Faith". Anyone who has read these books need be under no illusions about the ultimate aims of Islam nor of the fascist ideology underpinng it.

peter vernon

Well done Rod. You are a braver man than me! But by god or alah it needs people like you to tell some truth about the dangers coming.

pharbitis

Brilliant, Rod. And excellent debate.
Now that we know we have had halal meat fed us by the major supermarkets without our knowledge or consent, it is even more important that we understand the strategies and tactics involved in the creeping islamification of UK.

RaJ1997

oi dolby you are a big idiot, are you actually so jobless? just go and stop with the tuitions already!