Nice to know our money is being well-spent

Forest Fan

Although I can see some arguments for overseas aid which include the fact that it may save the West money in the future, I do increasingly question where it has got certain countries apart from lining a few more pockets of the corrupt rulers.

When it comes to countries such as China and India…the latter which has just spent so many million on the Commonwealth games…I just don’t get it.

Old Slaughter

Rod,

I believe they are going to stop the aid going to India and China, I hope so. Surely the point is that the aid budget, when used properly, should pay dividends in the future. When ideologically motivated incompetents like Short and Benn were throwing the lucre around, then I get the point. What a waste. But if we are able to use that money as a focussed extension of our foreign policy then it will save British lives in the future, expand the potential for world trade and hopefully save a few poor lives on the way.

The proof shall be in the pudding. But the benefits of a functioning aid program to the poor of Cardiff or wherever else should not be underestimated.

PS: After collapsed bridges at the games and sewage running through the athletes bedrooms, I would happily donate to the Indian space program for the outside bet of some world-class comedy TV. Even the words, 'Indian Space Program' excite my darker side.

Larry

Add to that the fact that we've had academic African commentators pointing out that the bulk of the so-called 'aid' never goes to the poor.

Most of it goes to African despots' wives who duly distribute it among Europe's most expensive shoe shops and BMW showrooms.

That's what we're paying for.

Africa's Lady Macbeths to go shopping.

On a not dissimilar issue, vis-a-vis your post below, on the World Service. The BBC blocks its iPlayer service from being used abroad because it's licence-fee funded.

Now that the World Service is licence-fee funded, why is it not blocking that? Or at the very least not broadcasting the signal on globally available frequencies?

Fiona

Backhanders abroad to secure lucrative orders for British goods and services, under the guise of the fight against global poverty. It's not aid, it's trade.

Magpie

Its a joke isn't it - I can understand politically why the NHS is ringfenced, but why international aid. Surely the only people who care are slef righteous Guardian reading types who would never vote tory anyway. We also give money to Russia and China as well - madness.

David Ossitt

It is my opinion that all foreign aid should be stopped immediately, apart from the humanitarian aid that we give when natural disasters happen, even then, we should be a bit more selective, or at least ensure that we find ways to make sure the money is not sidetracked into the wrong pockets.

David Cameron will not do this because he seeks to be popular, what he is incapable of grasping are two facts, one such a move would be extremely popular with the majority and would probably earn him votes, everyone that I have spoken to has said that overseas aid should not be ring fenced and most want it stopped, the second is that in times of financial hardship it is seen as a stupid act to be giving away 7 billion.

Ian Walker

Old Slaughter, the programmes to China and Russia have been stopped, which is great, but not India this round.

The new focus is supposed to be on "investment" rather than straight-up aid payments.

Not sure how the subcontinent will react to a 21st Century East India Trade Company though.

Pete

Fiona - exactly. But as a spot of judicious bribery here and there is very helpful in business, I don't know why they don't just 'fess up and promote it as foreign investment rather than aid.

Larry

Old Slaughter, when you say "Surely the point is that the aid budget, when used properly, should pay dividends in the future," you forget that it won't be any dividend to the ordinary taxpayer.

Many of these countries receiving this money have very little in the way of ethics, which is why they're in the state they're in. Yours is a flawed moral calculation.

I hate to ever speak well of The Guardian, but you really need to get a copy of The Liar: The Fall of Jonathan Aitken, and then you'll get a real insight into the ethics - I hate to call them that - of Tory British governments and foreign businessmen.

Fiona is honest in that she has openly has no ethics about what she wants to see achieved, but she forgets that there is no honour among thieves. The British political elite can conspire to rob the British taxpayer for their rich foreign chums, but they would be wise to remember that rule of thumb.

The only 'trade' we know that is guaranteed is that the foreign uber rich will be receiving British taxpayers' money to buy expensive London properties.

Some trade.

Rick

But surely when the bank manager's hammering on your door, that's when you turn out your pockets for your favourite charity. Er, don't you?

Edward McLaughlin

"...save the West money in the future..."

"...save British lives in the future..."

How?

This is pure alchemy. There is no mechanism whatever, between our giving now and receiving later. And if there were, the words for it would be neither 'aid' nor 'development'.

Larry

Old Slaughter, when you say "Surely the point is that the aid budget, when used properly, should pay dividends in the future," you forget that it won't be any dividend to the ordinary taxpayer.

Many of these countries that receive this money have very little in the way of ethics, which is why they're in the state they're in. Yours is a flawed moral calculation.

I hate to ever speak well of The Guardian, but you really need to get a copy of The Liar: The Fall of Jonathan Aitken, and then you'll get a real insight into the concrete past example of the ethics - I hate to call them that - of Tory British governments and the way they do business abroad.

Fiona is more honest in that she has openly has no ethics about what she wants to see achieved, but she forgets that their is no honour among thieves. The British political elite can conspire to rob the British taxpayer for their rich foreign elite chums, but they would be wise to remember that rule of thumb.

The only 'trade' we know that is guaranteed is that the foreign uber-rich will be receiving British taxpayers' money to buy expensive London properties.

Some trade.

Tim R

Borrow money from abroad to send to abroad. Get our kids to pay for the resultant debt. real smart economics.
Can I have my kids' child benefit back please? I'm sure my spending at Boden helps India somehow.
Yep - I'm a bit of a liberal, I know

Eddie

Last year, we gave £800 million to India, didn't we? Just enough for them to buy the air craft carrier they're just buying...

We also gave about the same to China, the country that now runs the world economy and which is full of billionaires (as are all 'developing' countries we throw money at).

Comic and tragic surreal madness!

You couldn't really make it up...

I think we should stop all foreign aid NOW - unless it is proven to get contracts for British companies and to create British jobs. That's China's methods - it says to African countries: 'we'll build your roads and pay you a massive bribe Mister Mbagwu, but only if you sign over to us bthe rights to all your minerals and oil and land for growing food in the future...'.

Anyway, foreign aid does not work - Africa has had trillions of aid in recent decades but is now poorer than 50 years ago - thanks to corrupt african leaders entirely!

Eddie

Perhaps is we in the West paid those in the developing world to get sterilised? I'd agree with that.

Foreign aid just encourages over-population, which leads to war, starvation, disease and the usual...

Old Slaughter

@Edward McLaughlin

So 'development' of areas that might regress or maintain the current levels of shiteness cannot be of benefit for the future? Perhaps if I call it 'investment' you shall be appeased.

I am not advocating parachuting cash on to Warlords and their harems, but surely our absence from post-soviet Afghanistan would point to the problems in not helping out in places when we could.

I ask for a coherent and intertwined foreign/defence/aid policy. If you cannot see that the functioning of that at a decent level will have positive effects for security, and therefore all Britons pockets and safety, I shall not bother trying to explain.

I accept it will require proper reform. But not cuts.

Osred

RE:Fiona @ 1:27pm

No. It used to be like that. The link was deliberately decoupled under Labour's 1997 rebranding of the old ODA into DFID. DFID staff then revelled in the fact that they were independent of political influence (particularly the FCO) - imagine...British taxpayers expecting something back from the kleptocrats! the very idea.

Its a lefty fantasy to believe that things remained the same after 1997.

biggestaspidistra

I believe it is given so that our politicians may sit at the big table once in a while.

Chris

Given that we do have a space programme of our own (see last Saturday's 'Telegraph' magazine, that's a pretty feeble sign-off, even by your standards.

Shyster

In the current financial climate it's absurd that Foreign Aid should remain, let alone be increased - and by such a large percentage.

Even with the (false) notion that this aid reached the people who needed it, it still sends out the wrong message to those who see the UK as the land of the free giro.

India - a fecking space programme and there's parents removing limbs of siblings in order to garner the odd sympathy rupee via begging?

Every penny of Foreign Aid should go on infrastructure, education, contraception/sterilisation and irrigation -- sending people over to instigate this would of course cost less.

Edward McLaughlin

Old Slaughter

I am not advocating our absence. The assistance we should give would be dispensed by people in khaki. Not Gap.

tax'n'squander

Mrs Jellyby is in power!

paulus

I suggest that the OSD budget is halved and to achieve maximum efficiency by sending directly to third world dictators directly thereby avoiding all the middle men.

OSD is another form of dependency it should not be used except for an emergency

Old Slaughter

@Edward McLaughlin

One follows t'other.
The aid can reduce the amount we have to spend on the camo.

David Ossitt

Shyster.

An interesting moniker you have chosen, are you aware of the meaning?

Shyster

@David Ossitt

Yes, but please don't take it too literally.

Ordnance

90% of foreign aid should be in the form of micro-loans, to people who actually create something for the community.

Spondulicks

I read somewhere (sorry no source)that international aid is rarely a gift, as in disaster relief, but usually takes the form of contracts with companies from the donor country, in which low interest is traded for future benefits. Sort of like your bank manager agreeing to lend you £50K in exchange for an option on your daughter when she turns 16.

In the case of China the aid provided by the Soviet Union in the 1950s, for example, was all paid back with interest. And by accepting British aid until recently, China has been helping British companies to remain solvent. China is now, as Eddie observed, playing the aid game itself.

Jimmock

Once you buy in to the globalist worldview there is no way to avoid 'moral' responsibility for every third world hell-hole. And we all know that moral problems are assauged by cash these days. So what's the solution? Don't invade the world; don't invite the world and don't interfere.

Archie

Foreign aid! Preposterous nonsense, and, I'm glad to say, raising not a few hackles on the blogosphere currently!

GaryO

The aid or shall I say the bid has gone up to £800 million, Billion anyone...c'mon don't be shy...you all know it's for a good cause...c'mon the aid to India...billion anyone...Rod?

Eddie

Just to add: £800 million was recently given to Kenya to provide primary school age education to all children there. What happened? Do they now have school places for all kiddies in Kenya?

No, actually, because ALL that money went missing! That's right - All of it! (According to the EU report) Nicked by the usual African kleptocrats and stashed in Swiss bank accounts. And the Tories want to send more to these corrupt failed states? Are they nuts? We should send NO cash at all to these places - which all have stinking rich people in them (even Haiti!).

The only way we can solve problems overseas is by NOT propping up corrupt regimes with aid. We shoudl do business with them with conditions (something China is now undermining). Err isn;t that sort of what the UN is for?

Anyway, overpopulation will mean the problems just keep getting worse and worse... Yet no-one is acting to stop this cisis! So eventually, nature will sort it out - through disease, violence, famine, war etc.

Jez

Eddie,

don't you think deep down that the people that funnel the money to the rightous causes know that it's there to be plundered by tribal elites?

It just opens up these places for resource / geographical manipulation by the governing juntas for the city boys.

It's not Gujarati rocket science.

Hughie

.. so, since the aid has increased, we'll see more Sunseekers built here in Poole.

RichardH

At least it's honest and open. Unlike the percentage of the taxpayers support of the railways that will filter its way to Germany via Deutsche Bahn's ownership of Arriva.
Still, anything to help bail out Greece...

Lungfish

Its so the top knobs can go and slap each others backs in New York and say they've achieved their 0.7 percent of GDP target. I used to think it was the Labour Party's raison d'etre to chuck our money at mostly worthless causes- it now appears to be a hobby that all politicians can take part in.

Archibald

You should never give to receive. The only exceptions are prostitution, birthdays and foreign aid.

But perhaps it's time, as we all aim to curtail our wild spending, to adopt the same strategy with developing nations that I do with Big Issue sellers and those pesky high street charity collectors. Smile politely and say, "Sorry mate, we just gave our last million to Rwanda... maybe next time."

Rhydderch ap Crachach

There once was a guy called Rob..
No sorry...it's Rod.. what a lob!
Ignorant twat
No brain in his hat
In fact.. he's just a right knob!

O'r should I say 'right wing knob'?

Iestyn Tyddyn Adi

Rhydderch Ap Crachach has hit the nail on it's head, you're a twat Rod

Engchamp

I am beginning to gain the impression that 'overseas aid' may have connotations. It could be a euphemism for hiding certain expenditure on items that joe public ought not to be aware of, and is also devoid of any audit.

Lungfish

@Lestyn- Are you about 4'2" with ginger hair and freckles perchance?- do you work 15 hour shifts in a slate mine and overdose on mutton every night before going out to set your lobster pots?.

Iestyn Tyddyn Adi

Congratulations Lungfish, you've discovered facebook, shame you can't spell my name correctly, or can you not read? Add another 2ft onto the height, and a blackbelt in 2 martial arts and i'll consider an argument with you.

Lungfish

I haven't looked you up on Facebook lester- although my guess as to your qualities must have been fairly correct. I'm obviously kacking myself now though.

Rod yuncut

Lungfish and lestyn, grow up

Dixon

Indian space programme. Chinese space programme. Dickie Branson space programme.I wish they would hurry up.So far these programnes are all repeats.

jeff

rod you are bang on
a few years ago you wrote an article on overpopulation in England
Many people responded saying you were wrong and there was an inequitable distribution of land
They were wrong
People congregate to cities where they perceive there is work.This happens all over the world The unchecked flow of immigrants and xflow of migrant workers from Europe places a huge pressure on infrastructure not least housing as you describe in your article' Combine this with the number of people now on the dole and receiving a housing allowance and now you know why there is a dearth of property
Stop immigration, curb the flow of migrant labour from europe , curtail easy benefits to all and things may improve but i suspect this is too much for any government to undertake and the dam wall will eventually collapse

barry

it is a golden rule that countries like the UK cannot interfere with the sovereignty of a foreign nation
However when it comes to aid we are expected to give unlimited funds to places where atrocities are committed amd billions stolen by their own tin pot dictators or in some places like South Africa elected officials
GO see how many of these own property in Knightsbridge
How much of these donations actually get through to the people.This applies to the millions of unrepaid loans as well as aid. By all means give aid to those that need it but do it through the NGO's that know who needs and deserves it

Ian Walker

A new twist on this today - looks like the Indian's are going to be buying Blackburn Rovers.

So why doesn't the DfID cut out the middleman and takeover Blackburn? Imagine a footie team run by the civil service - they'd have to double the size of the dugout to accomodate all the managers!

Thesiger

Having spent some twenty years managing British aid programmes overseas, I can only agree that most aid projects are a complete waste of money. Returns to the UK taxpayer are minimal. Corruption and maladministration in recipient countries is rife. NGOs are inefficient, competitive and precious. Scholarship programmes just fuel the brain drain.

Why on earth the UK aid programme should be ring fenced in current economic circumstances is a mystery to me and is an affront to those of us whose belts are being progressively tightened since 'we're all in it together'.

Dixon

In case noone else has mentioned the fact, the US gives billions upon billions in aid to Pakistan so that their ISI can recruit,train, feed, clothe and arm the Taleban.

This is beyond dfispute by now. Everyone admits it. Even those US politicians who support aid to Pakistan.

In other words, the US pays Pakistan to kill our soldiers (beside their own).

adam sparkes

we cant afford overseas aid we need every penny to be used to balance the books
charity begins at home lets put overseas aid to the voters
India are still pumping there own money into there space program this is disgusting when we can afford to help we should .
We are all in it together Mr Cameron what a joke