The mother of all mistranslations

d1carter

Holocaust fit Alreuters' agenda much better, Melanie. Come on...

Dollar

I've just read a similar version of the BBC account on The Telegraph's website. What is going on? Or in a 24hr news age does no-one stop to double check such things anymore? "Let's just be the first with this and the hell with reality." Mind you, the BBC will do anything to deflect from their anti-Israel agenda so why would they check?

Ricky

Either Reuters is being moronic or Vilnai is. Either way, there is no excuse for this unfortunate slip of the tongue.

William

BBC have updated to "Gaza militants 'risking disaster'" http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/7270650.stm

Geoffrey Dron

The BBC may have modified their story, but, needless to say, the Guardian is running the "holocaust" angle.

Bob Latchford

I wonder if Ms Phillips will be so keen to read the correct translation and interpretation of Ahmadinejads comments, which were falsely reported as threatening to 'wipe israel from the map'. Of course not...

dav

Steven Spielberg established the 'Shoah Foundation' in 1994 to record testimonies of all of the remaining survivors of the Holocaust.

Squirrel

To All: Don't miss THIS: March 1, 2008 6PM Shalom Centre, 395 High Street North, Manor Park, London E12: 'AWAKENING OF THE GIANT: RETURN OF THE KHILAFAH' (That's The Caliphate to the uninitiated and it's being hosted by our old friends, Hizb-ut-Tahrir who are dedicated to restoring the Caliphate, world-wide and who have chosen Londonistan to honour with receiving the Giant). Cynic that I am, I can't help thinking that maybe msm kind of deliberately missed mentioning this on its Diary Pages in favour of possible 'holocausts' elsewhere. Wouldn't want to alarm the Dhimmies, now would they?

Robert, London

Melanie's claim that - "In Hebrew, the word ‘shoah’ is never used to mean ‘holocaust’ or ‘genocide’ because of the acute historical resonance" is complete nonsense. The Yad Vashem Holocaust Museum in Israel constantly uses "shoa" to refer to the holocaust, as you can see on their website, http://www.yadvashem.org/

Brad Brzezinski

For Bob Latchford: 1) Former president Rafsanjani in 2001 specifically referenced destroying Israel with nuclear weapons, even adding that any retaliation would only damage the Islamic world but it would destroy Israel (because of its small size). http://tinyurl.com/2dobum 2) The false translation claim was with regard to a specific speech by Ahmadinejad. The speech was made with a backdrop featuring an hourglass with the Star of David falling to the bottom and the Stars and Stripes already there. The threat has been repeated many times since. E.g. Sep 22, 2005 http://tinyurl.com/35t3r3 Some of the missiles, which have a range of 1,250 miles (2,000 km), bore banners proclaiming "Israel should be wiped off the map" and "We will trample America under our feet". The particular speech caused major international diplomatic turbulence as Iranian ambassadors were summoned by various host countries. 3) IF AHMADINEJAD DIDN’T MEAN IT WHY DIDN’T IRAN SAY SO AFTERWARDS? Instead we got: Oct 28, 2005 http://tinyurl.com/yq8jgx ‘The official said that while there was broad consensus within the clergy-dominated regime on the hard-line President’s vow to “wipe Israel off the map” …..’ 4) Reuters has defended their translation of the speech in question. (On their customer interaction website, ‘The Good, The Bad and the Ugly” I have seen it twice.) 5) The website, “Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting” has the story with the headline: “Ahmadinejad: Israel must be wiped off the map” http://tinyurl.com/yuop3j In summary, Iran certainly means to convey the impression that they threaten Israel’s destruction. What all this really illustrates is the depth of hatred of Israel that influences people to ignore a threat that apart from destroying Israel, would plunge the entire world into chaos. Are you mad?

Adam B.

Bob, The BBC had been whipping itself up into a frenzy recently about Israel's defensive measures against the fascists of Hamas ("Israel pounds Gaza" screams a headline - of course Kassam rockets never "pound" Israel, they just land harmlesssly like butterflies). And Bob, Ahmadinejad was not mistranslated, and has in fact reiterated the threat to commit genocide several times, including recently at the UN, as has Nasrallah of Hizbollah, Iran's puppet in Lebanon. It's you who isn't bothered by mistranslations like the one detailed here.

Moshe Chayim

Sorry Melanie - but this is totally wrong. I don't know if you have the Hebrew to read the Hebrew press regularly, but the word Shoah is never used to describe a disaster. This is clearly a major gaffe, and I suggest you scrub up on your Hebrew before wading in.

Hussein Badakhchani

He said holocaust, thats just what we meant and thats exactly what is happening.

Commondog

Yet again, it is left to one commentator out of the whole of the British media, to pull things into line.
Is Melanie Phillips the sole watchkeeper on this most crucial of issues?

sean

Dav:

I studied Hebrew at Catholic seminary. She's right. Shoah (שׁוֹאָה) means disaster or conflagration. Hashoah (השואה) means the holocaust. Try again...

Nina

Steven Spielberg. Oh yes, the man who thinks China does human rights.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Bob Latchford, what is the correct translation of Ahminijad's statement that Israel is a filthy bacteria?

pete

Robert, London.....all holocausts are disasters (shoah), all disasters (shoah) are not holocausts

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

Spielberg speaks English, not Hebrew, and in English, "The Shoah" is used to mean the Holocaust. Yad VaShem's use of Shoah on its English web site also proves nothing about Hebrew usage. If you read the Yad VaShem website in Hebrew, not in English, you will see that they use the term HaShoah, not simply Shoah -- this use of the Ha at the beginning of a word is called Hey Hayedia, and is equivalent to the definite article in English. Its inclusion or omission is significant -- so much so that the Sages took note of its presence or absence in a word when interpreting scripture, e.g. references in the Book of Esther to Melech refer to the king of Persia, whereas, according to some of the Sages, the references to HaMelech refer to THE King (i.e. G-d) Who rules over Kings.

Ahad Ha'amoratzim

By the way, the word Shoah for disaster entered modern Hebrew from Biblical Hebrew, and pre-dates the Second World War by decades (in moder Hebrew) and millennia (in Biblical Hebrew).

alan stoddart

Google Shoah and it comes up Holocaust...clearly Vilnai didn't mean that(I assume) but he should choose his words more carefully. After all Jihad will come up as Holy War or internal struggle. The BBC give both meanings but the emphasis is on disaster...and I am no fan of the BBC's Middle East coverage....'Matan Vilnai said Palestinians risked a "shoah", the Hebrew word for a big disaster - and for the Nazi Holocaust'

field

I couldn't believe it when I read it and now I see I was right not to believe it. I never trained as a journalist. Why couldn't trained journalists see there is something wrong here. Who was the Reuters journalist who started this off?

alan stoddart

Google 'Shoah' and you get Holocaust...although it does also mean 'disaster'. The BBC mentioned both but gave emphasis to 'disaster'...'Matan Vilnai said Palestinians risked a "shoah", the Hebrew word for a big disaster - and for the Nazi Holocaust.' I am no fan of the BBC but they are going to report this when an Israeli minister makes such a gaff. 'Jihad' can have two meanings...Holy War or Internal struggle....depends on context and what the speaker intended.

Steven

Israel's oldest daily newspaper, Haaretz, says that the word Shoah normally means the Nazi Holocaust. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/959532.html Perhaps Melanie is getting confused with Ahmadinejad's statement "Wiped off the map" which actually was a misquote.

Bob Latchford

Ahmadinejad is accused of threatening to 'wipe israel off the map' yet he never uttered the words 'wipe' 'israel' or 'map' in his speech. His exact words were "Imam ghoft een rezhim-e ishghalgar-e qods bayad az safheh-ye ruzgar mahv shavad." why dont you go and ask your Farsi friends to translate it. The Persian word for 'map' is "nagsheh", you will notice it absent from his speech...the phrase 'wipe out' is a western phrase, and does not exist in Farsi, and you will note, he never uses the word Israel. Word for Word in English is: "The Imam said this regime occupying Jerusalem must vanish from the page of time". So you will see Ahmadinejad is not calling for anything, but QUOTING somebody else....I imagine Ms Phillips knows this information, yet still trots out the old lie when its time to put the boot into Iran, just as people will use this story in the future. What goes around comes around

Clive

Is that Bob Latchford who worked for the BBC with Fenny Jackson? Says it all if that is the case.

elliot greenberg

I think it was deliberate. The correct meaning would have been known.

Mark M

”We must take a neighborhood in Gaza and wipe it off the map.” - Israeli Cabinet Minister Meir Sheetrit, New York Times, 10th Feb. (And, unlike mad old Mahmoud, he really DID say it. Amazing how some things are reported more than others, isn't it?) But hey, it's not all bad. On average, the IDF has killed 11 Palestinian children every month for the past seven years. That will deter those Qassam rockets! www.rememberthesechildren.org

Arab Muslim

"merely means disaster," really? I don't think so. How come every reference I can find to the word "Shoah" alone (not Ha-Shoah) is dedicated to the Nazi Holocaust? Nice try. And "the calumny of the ‘Jews as Nazis’ is rampant around the world?" Really? Rampant? Where exactly is it Rampant? You have not seen rampant dear. Try to be in the shoes of an Arab or a Muslim and you'll start feeling some rampant hate!! And "the mother of all translations?" Not only is your argument in this "mistranslation" case weak, but this is by far not the worst case of mistranslations. What did you say about the mistranslation of a poor little Palestinian girl's words on TV by MEMRI when she was claimed to have said "we will annihilate the Jews," when all she said was "they [Israeli soldiers] will shoot us"? Funny person you are Melanie Phillips!

lee

Sounds familiar Why are these people not screaming at Ahmanajads mis-translation of the"wiped of the face of the earth" translation? Hypocracy

Mark Smith

This error was repeated on Radio 4 World Tonight on 29 February at around 22:30

Ann

The statement "In Hebrew, the word ‘shoah’ is never used to mean ‘holocaust’ or ‘genocide’ because of the acute historical resonance" is inaccurate at best. In fact, this is putting the cart before the horse. It's not 'because' of any historical resonance, but because the word shoah simply MEANS disaster or catastrophe. It was only after WW2 that the construction ha-shoah ('The Catastrophe') was coined to refer to the Holocaust. --- Not sure what the 'southern Negev' is doing here: Shderot etc are very much in the northern Negev. The southern Negev would be south of Mitzpe Ramon at best, nowhere near the Gaza strip.

George Steiner

You fellows get awfully excited over shoah over hashoah. But let me give you a little perspective over this matter of holocaust. The Germans has succeeded to evaporate about 6 million Jews. Over the last 2000 years the good Christians have succeeded in evaporating hundreds of thousands of Jews. The Arabs kill each other with gay abandon. A 150,000 in Algeria alone in the last few years. Not to mention the Irakis the Syrians and the rest. What is it about these lowly Jews that so ecxites you fellows? Should they not be allowed to be like everyone else? Should they not be allowed to kill just a few? Well.. not millions, not hundreds of thousands, not tens of thousands, just a few thousands. You Brits like to think of yourself as fair people. So how about it, eh?

wafflehead666

"Holocaust" is as good a term as any to describe Israel's slow-motion genocide of the Palestinians. If the shoe fits...

Ann

Where are these mythical 'Palestinians'?

Ann

"but the word Shoah is never used to describe a disaster" - I suggest it's you who needs to brush up his Hebrew, if you have any at all. Shoah means disaster, full stop. You may choose to go all PC and not use it, but it's a perfectly good Hebrew word and that's all it means. Take it from someone who actually speaks Hebrew, unlike all the posters with a little learning, like Robert. Very little learning.

Andy Gill

@wafflehead666 Slow-motion genocide? You are either ignorant of the facts, or a paid-up anti-Israel bigot. I can help you with the first problem, but not the second. In 1970, the combined population of Israel and the Palestinina territories was 71% Jewish. In 1980 it was 61% Jewish, in 1995 56% Jewish and in 2005 50.5% Jewish. Over the period, the Jewish population increased from 2.6m to 5.2m, while the Arab popultion increased from 1.0m to 5.1m. Get it?

DEWP

Thanks. I just heard that comment on BBC and it confused me. Thanks Melanie

Adam B.

Wafflehead ("if the shoe fits..." your name is very fitting), you have it the wrong way round. It is the Arab and wider Islamic world which constantly declares its commitment to the genocide of the Jews, and does everything it can to bring it about. The Jews have learnt that no-one will come to their aid when the chips are down, so they have to rely on themselves to survive. If Israel didn't defend itself, there would not be a living Jew left in the Holy Land. Doubtless, this bigotry doesn't bother you.

Nick Kaplan

Bob Latchford; In my eyes making Israel “vanish from the page of time" is worse than “wiping Israel off the face of the map”, given that wiping Israel off the face of the map would be a necessary condition of making them vanish from the page of time. Therefore if your translation stands it serves to make Ahmadinejad’s position worse, not better.

Cal

To call Israel's actions a "limited war of self-defence" is absurd. Is there any assault against human rights that CAN'T be passed off as "self-defence" if it's Israel doing it? If any other nation were doing what Israel does in Gaza, a multinational coallition would quickly intervene to put an end to it. Look at what happened in response to Serbia's smaller-scale atrocities against Kosovo.

Lynne T

Wafflehead: You are either extremely disingenuous, or else your nickname is very fitting. Despite all the privations the Palestinians in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem are supposedly suffering, they seem to have very large families, although apparently not quite so large as the population estimates provided by the PA attempted to foist on the world for the purpose of obtaining the maximum amount of foreign aid they could grab and sympathies along with it. As for those Palestinians living within the pre-1967 borders, the vast majority wouldn't think of relinquishing citizenship in Israel despite the unease between them and their Jewish neighbours for life under the PA or any of the other 22 "Arab" governments in the region.

Bogdan of Australia

Bob Latchford: Are you suggesting that Ahmadinejad is threatennig Israel with a "disaster" because Israeli rokets are pounding the Western regions of Iran on a daily basis?

Louise

Meanwhile the BBC continues its mischievous and agenda-loaded habit of reporting Palestinian casualties of Israeli airstrikes first - especially infants and children - and reporting Israeli casualties (and the reason behind the Israeli strikes)almost as an afterthought. The BBC is evil.

Pasha

What mistranslation? YNET which is an Israeli paper reported the same story and confirmed that the word ‘shoah’ is used in Israel to mean holocaust...

Ravi

Arab Muslim (and others) its great that you have taken such an interest in The Holocaust as well as The Shoah (same event). However, it may simply be lack of understanding of grammar (or mendacious bending to suit an agenda). The word 'shoah' DOES mean disaster just as the word 'holocaust' does literally mean 'to burn' coming from the greek word 'holokaustum'. However these words are preceded by the definite article modifier "The". Hence "The Shoah" refers to "The Holocaust" but the word 'shoah' alones does NOT translate to "holocaust". It means 'disaster and nothing more. The Disaster IS another phrase for The Holocaust.

N. Simon

What's happening to the Arabs of Gaza is NOT a Holocaust, which is a genocide. In any genocide, there's always a huge decrease of the population, as we saw in Rwanda. However, in both Gaza and the West Bank, the numbers have INCREASED dramatically. Now go look at the genocides caused by Muslims against Muslims.

Richard Morgan

Newsniffer is a web site that automatically tracks changes to the BBC website. The change from: "Israel warns of Gaza 'holocaust'" to "Gaza militants 'risking disaster'" can be found here http://tinyurl.com/ytod5v please recommend the change by pressing the link at the top.

Richard Morgan

Just listening to the Today Programme and they used the word "holocaust" again at 12:35 mins into the 8.30 stream http://tinyurl.com/2nvhr3 This is AFTER the accusation was withdrawn from the BBC website.

Norman Richardson

I see the Daily Mail have continued with this story today (1-3-08)

phil

For bob latchford -first of all you should make it clear that you are not the wonderful ex everton player ,a man who never scored an own goal.your nonsense is so obvious that it is not fit to be on a serious page-how lucky you are that this wonderful country allows free speech-even yours-Iran has made it perfectly clear to anyone who can read or hear what its intentions are to Israel -only those with sick agendas as you seem to have would agree with you ,and unfortunately for this world there are many left

Nicholas

Arab Muslim: "Try to be in the shoes of an Arab or a Muslim and you'll start feeling some rampant hate!!" Yes, we've got the message. Arab Muslim rampant hate has been behind most of the world's worst terrorist outrages in the last 40 years.

Bob Latchford

Nick Kaplan - if you read what I posted, Ahmadinejad never used the word Israel, he was quoting Ayatollah Khomeni, who said that the 'regime' must vanish....if you read the whole speech (which im sure you didnt), he on numerous occasions refers to zionism as 'the regime'. What he was saying is that just as communism vanished from the page of time, so will zionism. Now, I'm sure you wont like that very much, but in no way was he threatening to wipe israel off the map. Ms Phillips will know this information, but it does not stop her lying through her teeth every time its 'stick the boot into' Iran day.

Scott

Amusing how those who know Hebrew agree with Melanie while those who don't just point to articles that are cut and pastes of the original Reuters article as their "proof". For those who pathetically link "disaster" to "holocaust" by using memorials to the Holocaust as their argument... don't you think the holocaust was a disaster? Typical BBC, couldn't wait to report these lies.

Ryan Pervais

It's funny how the same people now crying about mistranslations, are the very same people who were exploiting the mistranslations of the Iranian president Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. This article yet again illustrates the inherent and ugly bias of Melanie Philips.

osama

A highly respected and authoritative journalist in the shape of Jeremy Bowen this morning(1.3.08), on the Today Programme, stated that Vilnai had said there was going to be a Holocaust in Gaza if the Rockets didn't stop. Bowen then informed us that an Israeli 'spin doctor' now suggests that Vilnai didn't mean Holocaust...but Bowen unfortunately, in his rush to get us this important story, forgot to tell us that Shoah could have any other meaning, or indeed what the 'spin doctor' said Vilnai meant. Bowen told us that the Jews left Europe to form Israel...I presume there were no Jews in Palestine before 1947??? and that Hamas 'religious warriors' would provide a formidable opponent even with their makeshift weapons that one of the world's most sophisticated armies had failed to defeat. So there. I can't help feeling after hearing this that perhaps the Israelis are the bad guys. Perhaps I have been taken in by some subtle twisting of words that make a trap for fools, is Bowen engaging in a sly intimation of contempt for Jews? An almost imperceptible slant in favour of the Palestinians? Is he manipulating public opinion, trying to get the public to withdraw any sympathy, suppport and understanding for Israel? Does the BBC presentation of the conflict alter its dynamics...are Israel's actions hamstrung by a public opinion whipped up against them by the BBC? The early withdrawal from Lenbanon and the pressure on the US and UK to end their support for Israel would indicate it does. And since when have Syria, Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Iraq been countries in the form that they now are? They too were imposed creations of Western powers. As is Pakistan, Liberia, Sierra Leone and Belgium. Why is Israel singled out by the so-called intellectuals? I'm sure they've all seen 'Lawrence of Arabia'...fighting for Arab nationalism...because it didn't exist before.

alan stoddart

For amusement and edification go to this link (http://www.lingvozone.com/main.jsp?language_id_from=25&language_id_to=23&do=dictionary&action=translation&word_id=1253199) and press 'talk'. (Should the link fail go to www.lingvozone.com and enter 'holocaust' and go from there.) I'm shoah you'll get the message.

S. Jackson

Scott,
If there is one thing that never ceases to amaze me it is that Israel, with the best brains in the world, is so inept at portraying itself and allows itself get so soundly beaten in the propaganda war. I suppose it’s got its hands full with the actual war.

We blame the BBC for unfair representation of Israel, but with all the lazy reporting and churanalism that is so abundant these days you wouldn’t think it would be beyond the wit of Israel’s ad department to present its case. The media is evidently quite willing to be manipulated.

If there is one thing that the Arabs have perfected, it’s how to engender sympathy and passionate support from the rest of the world.
In her book on this subject Stephanie Gutmann explains that the Israelis are not journanlist-friendly, their manner is hostile and prickly.

One has to ask, why can’t anyone from Israel come up with something less self destructive instead of shooting itself in the foot and playing into the hands of the biased BBC.

Ravi

"Holocaust" is as good a term as any to describe Israel's slow-motion genocide of the Palestinians. If the shoe fits... Well the shoe doesn't fit at all! I would use the term "Self inflicted professional victims who wish genocide on Israel" would be my description. Of course there is no Israeli policy of Genocide against the Palestinians but Hamas charter calling for the destruction of Israel and Fatah maps not showing Israel is a clear policy of Genocide against Israel

Ravi

So I went to your link and I Shoah did get the meaning. The four translations offered are "catastrophe, holocaust, cataclysm, disaster ". So, how do you mind-read that when the intention was to use the word to indicate "disaster" the news media choose the word "holocaust" which no Israel politician would use to describe the fate of anyone else but Jews in THE Holocaust. One would ONLY choose that definition out of mendacity.

alan stoddart

Ravi, try this link (http://www.zwoje-scrolls.com/shoah/index.html), or just Google 'Shoah'...any non-Hebrew speaking person would naturally do this, or go to the extent of checking a Hebrew-English dictionary...all categorically indicate 'Holocaust' as first choice. An understandable choice therefore for journalists, one that the BBC would jump on of course...but you fail to credit their website with this...'Matan Vilnai said Palestinians risked a "shoah", the Hebrew word for a big disaster - and for the Nazi Holocaust' ... They put 'big disaster' first.

phil

If this subject was not so important i would say it was boring -boring to the extent that every writer even bob latchford and ricky pervais know that Israel have no intention of causing a Holocaust-sadly the rest of us respond to these idiots and perpetuate these hate filled posts .This impasse will continue so long as these people are allowed to fuel the fires of racial conflict .What i do find amazing is thatMelanie in her own column allows mr.latchford to call her a liar -no doubt he has been called in as an expert.

George Steiner

Mr. Jackson, it is true that the Israeli brains are quite good. The problem is not with their brains but with the brains of those receiving the information. The British and the Europeans are congenitaly inclined to favour anti-Jewish propaganda. While the Americans, regularly sneared at are much less so. Just look at the howls about the childeren of Gaza. Of course you all know that about 50% of the population is under 19 years. So if you lobbed a tenis ball into it there is over 50% chance it will land on a child. Very usefull for Arab propaganda.

Larry Teabag

"...the word ‘shoah’ is never used to mean ‘holocaust’..." You'd better tell Norman Geras that: "...the Shoah or Holocaust (I use the two expressions interchangeably)..." http://normblog.typepad.com/normblog/2008/02/too-much-holoca.html

osama

Teabag...more like a sandbag, well done! And no I'm not anti-israeli. All these comments are of course unimportant hanging as they do off Mel.P's coat tails, but they do allow information to be aired that would not otherwise be seen. People all have inherent prejudices that they allow to rule over their keenness of mind because it is less trouble to go into automatic pilot than to navigate uncharted thought. Words do matter: The pen is mightier than the sword because words drive home the sword, the 'Tyranny of Ideas'. The Conservative Party are now forever the 'Nasty Party' because of one thoughtless woman, and of course it's no long leap to 'Nazi' from there and all the associations with fascist rightwingers...which was the complete opposite to what she had intended. As an earlier comment said it is up to the Israeli government to get its media relations in order. Vilnai knows the meanings of 'Shoah' , he knows what the media are like and therefore he should not have used the word...it is a gift for anti-Israelis, one that will now forever be on record...and if you control the record you control the past ... if you control the past you control the future; if you control the present you control the past. The victor writes the history...so far the Arabs are winning the propaganda war. A government minister shooting off his mouth is just as bad as an Israeli soldier firing indiscriminately...it has similar propaganda effects. Rowan Williams now knows that, when will politicians learn?

s. Jackson

George Steiner,
Even so, Israelis ought to be able to counteract the British congenital anti Jewish predisposition to some extent. They need to take advantage of the laziness of the media.

See how they call in the same old ‘experts’ time and time again, not only on Israel / Islam, but on any other matter under the sun, can’t be arsed to find new or more representative ones. They swallow press releases hook line and sinker, saves some work. Regurgitating what is handed to them on a plate is much less hassle. Anything sensational they would go for. A dead child is hard to beat in the propaganda war, but deliberately placing it in harm’s does not go down quite so well.

There’s so much potential, both good stuff about Israel and eye-openers to de-sentimentalise the image the U.K. has of ‘Palestinians’. All wasted. Surely Israel could hit back and take some advantage of this.

Ravi

Alan Stoddart. to a simple mind you would be very dangerous in the way you make a lie into an apparent fact. You could trawl anywhere on the internet and find something to try and make your case. However, you should stop trying to fool people with disinformation. The 2nd website you refer to is about THE HOLOCAUST and it also has the word SHOAH because The Holocaust is ALSO referred to as THE Shoah. But the word 'shoah', as you have demonstrated by your first link has four meanings. "catastrophe, holocaust, cataclysm, disaster ". The Holocaust was indeed a catastrophe, a cataclysm and a disaster. It was also of the genus 'holocaust' and happens to be the greatest example of a holocaust, hence called THE Holocaust. Hence, The Shoah can ONLY be used as a meaning of 'holocaust' when it specifically means THE Holocaust - which is that 2nd reference you linked-to. Yes, the translators at the news agencies got the meaning wrong and now Galloway on his radio program on Saturday night is going to discuss the Israeli Holocaust of the Palestinians - and so another lie is born. There are many words where the context of the sentence defines their meaning. The Yiddish word 'shlepp' has at least four different meanings depending on the sentence in which it is used, for example.

Ravi

Alan Stoddart, I find your corruption of the truth to be sinister and deliberate. On the 2nd website you linked-to it clearly says:- A selection of documentary photographs, reproductions of works of art, poetry and essays on the Shoah Clearly referencing that the website is ALSO using the description "THE SHOAH" as an alternative to THE HOLOCAUST. I hate feeding the trolls like you but at least the truth will get to the public domain by challenging your lies

Ravi

osama, how is an Israeli politician suggesting that if the Palestinians continue to fire rockets at Israel then they will be responsible for their own disaster become 'loose talk' He is surely right!

alan stoddart

Ravi...your reading of that website is bizarre, clearly no point arguing with you, as Osama states: 'People all have inherent prejudices that they allow to rule over their keenness of mind because it is less trouble to go into automatic pilot than to navigate uncharted thought.' Not entirely sure why you get so excited, Vilnai cocked up big style, it's irrelevant what a technical meaning of 'Shoah' is, on the street it's Holocaust. No good arguing with me because I'm not the enemy...all the Muslims watching Al Jazeera and the anti-Israelis here have their ideas and you raving at me won't change a thing...it's way to late for that. All the academics in Israel can line up and proclaim to the four corners of the earth that Shoah means 'Peace' but Hamas, Hezbollah, Iran and many, many Muslims aim to wipe out Israel, nothing will change that. Why not try out Larry Teabag's link? And have yourself a cup of tea whilst you're at it. Calm down.

alan stoddart

Ravi...the last word...from the Jerusalem Post: 'The Hebrew word "shoah" most often refers to the Holocaust but Israelis use it to describe all sorts of disasters. Vilnai spokesman Eitan Ginzburg said the deputy defense minister never intended it as a reference to the Holocaust but used the word "shoah" to denote a disaster. "Unfortunately Israel is using a term these days that many avoid using for 60 years," Abbas said in response.'

Larry Teabag

Whatever your views on Israel/Palestine, the point here is that in using the word "never" (italicised for emphasis), Melanie was peddling a demonstrable falsehood, and has been caught. It is not now enough for her to cover her backside in subsequent articles: she must issue an explicit retraction. Instantly.

J. Isaacs

S. Jackson - your enthusiasm for the possibilities of Israeli persuasion of BBC executives is commendable but misplaced. An organisation which is reputedly prepared to spend £200k of licence payers' money to prevent publication of the Balen report into alleged Middle East bias under the Freedom of Information Act is unlikely to listen to the best of Israeli PR girls, whether in or out of army fatigues. The strongest guardian of freedom of information is not UK legislation, but the internet. Another obvious freedom of information strategy could surely use a distinct audience aversion to seeing Jeremy Bowen's talking bald head coupled with a preference for watching podcasts by Israeli girl soldier journalists.

Ann

Bowen is neither 'respected' nor 'authoritative'. He is a typical BBC hack, with an underlying anti-Israel agenda that is very clear to anyone who has been following his distortions and ignorant nonsense over the past decade.

Ann

--You'd better tell Norman Geras that: "...the Shoah or Holocaust (I use the two expressions interchangeably)..." ---, yes, dear: THE shoah. Or in Hebrew: HA-shoah. On its own, shoah does NOT mean holocaust. It means disaster. But of course, the professional Jew-haters don't speak Hebrew - and can't follow a simple argument. Or refuse to, lest the outcome portray the Jews in a less mendaciously negative light.

Ann

"it's irrelevant what a technical meaning of 'Shoah' is, on the street it's Holocaust" -- and why exactly do you think you are an expert on Hebrew words 'on the street'? You have been correctly identified as a troll peddling disinformation, of the same ilk as the slimy Galloway.

md

I always took it from this film that the Hebrew word ‘shoah’ means ‘holocaust’ and that Jews used it for the Holocaust: http://www.eurekavideo.co.uk/moc/catalogue/shoah/

Ravi

field (aka Alan Stoddart) you say Ravi...the last word...from the Jerusalem Post: 'The Hebrew word "shoah" most often refers to the Holocaust but Israelis use it to describe all sorts of disasters. "most often" doesn't mean always. And you confirm that by saying ...but Israelis use it to describe all sorts of disasters. Exasctly! "Disaster" is what is meant. You are correct about one thing though. No point in arguing with me because I'm smarter and better informed.

Seraph

Every Holocaust is a catastrophe, but not every catastrophe is a Holocaust. If you check an online English-Hebrew Dictionary such as http://www.milon.co.il/ and type in the term "catastrophe" you will get "Shoah" as the second possible choice after "Katastrofa", which is a loan word and clearly NOT a word with a Hebrew root. In case you think it has been conveniently changed by the "International Zionist Conspiracy", check out any English-Hebrew dictionary, such as the Meridian Hebrew-English English-Hebrew Dictionary by Dov Ben-Abba and published in 1977. Shoah comes up as second to Katastrofa there as well. Of course you would need to be interesting at getting at the truth and have the ability to read Hebrew. This is clearly an example of Holocaust inversion, a case of projection and a modern-day Blood Libel. Perhaps Vilnai should have said Israel needs to go on a Jihad against Gaza. After all, as the Western media would have you believe, Jihad only means "struggle". Yeah, right!

s. Jackson

J. Isaacs,
Look, we are bombarded with fauxtography, Pallywood etc. and endless staged and genuine disaster scene imagery. Agenda driven material has a powerful effect and is hugely influential.

The BBC can’t be proud of its undeniable anti semitism otherwise they wouldn’t have gone to so much trouble to suppress the Balen report.

My suggestion would be for something more subtle than a pretty PR girl and I am saying that Israel is missing an opportunity. Like you, I am a fan of the internet and Bowen is a disgrace.

phil

Why are you all still indulging in semantics?does it really matter whose translation is correct -it is the meaning of Israel that is important and it is obvious to all but the greatest fools that they did not mean a genocide -so a plea from me to all those who defend the good name of Israel -dont respond to another word from these troublemakers -they enjoy it ,we don,t

Eric Lyle

The BBC also uses the phrase "Occupied Territories" and a host of other value-laden expressions to describe the "plight of the Palestinans". In the recent reporting (if you can call it that) there seems to be an assumption that just because only 1 Israeli died and 50/60/70/100/200 "palestinian refugees including 4 children" died that there is an "over-reaction" on the part of Israelis. The israelis are "aggresively responding" to 170 rocket attacks on their territory and are now "threatening an armed incursion" into the Gaza Strip. The fact that these "rockets", which makes it sound as if the "refugees" are having a Guy Fawkes night party, could have killed dozens of people (and probably will if they are allowed to continue)is pretty harmless really. The Israelis have also cut off food, medicine, power and oil supplies to the "refugees". This begs the question, why aren't the Egyptians helping them or for that matter the rest of the muslims. With oil prices being so high they have got a few bob too spare. I usually turn off the BBC "news" because it is peurile - or in this case dangerously biased. They disgust me

Danny

I would point out that there is NO record of Vilnai having used the word Shoah, let alone Ha-Shoah and I have to say I still find it highly, highly, highly unlikely. I have also found absolutely no record of Vilnai or Mekel or Vilnai's unnamed source saying ANY of the things attributed to them apart from the Reuters stories by one single reporter. It would be nice to know if anyone anywhere has a recording or a transcript in HEBREW of the interview - and wierdly Galatz has NO record of his statement - all Israeli reports have used the word damage - heres - or diasaster - ason - but none have used catastrophe - shoah. Otherwise this is the next logical step for Reuters after photoshopping it's photos. Here are the original stories: Original - http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L28848168.htm with some additions - http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L296121231.htm Please note the names of the reporters - strike you as people who listen to Israeli army radio and are fluent in the nuances of hebrew? And as for the Israeli "hasbara going into overdrive" I cannot find a single even allusion to the the spokesman's alleged "clarification". Personally if it turns out the story is a complete lie, Vilnai should sue Reuters for libel. As for the supposed "genocide" Israel is carrying out - at current rates of killing Israel will have killed the same percentage of Palestinians under it's control as the germans did to the Jews under theirs in roughly 700 years - note it took the germans less than five years.

Paul

"In Hebrew, the word ‘shoah’ is never used to mean ‘holocaust’ or ‘genocide’ because of the acute historical resonance" This is a patently untrue. Either Melanie Phillips does not speak Hebrew, or she is lying to fool non Hebrew speakers. Which is it Melanie? http://www.yadvashem.org

Sarah

this article is a lie. "Shoah" DOES mean what you in english consider the holocaust (a greek work.) "shoah" USED to mean "calamity," biblically, but that changed after the 1940s. everyone in israel knows what we're talking about when we say Shoah. what a disgrace.

Arab Muslim

To everybody who is taking the Melanie side regarding this story. What would you think if an Arab or a Muslim leader said [in Arabic] that "Israelis are going to bring upon themselves a 'nakbah' if they continue their actions"? Not "al-nakbah" or "the nakbah", just "a nakbah." What would you think of that statement? And what do you think the media will report this as? And don't you think such statement would get much more negative attention than the Israeli deputy defense minister's statement has so far? For those who don't know. "Nakbah" also means "disaster" or "calamity" and "al-nakbah" or "the nakbah" is what Arabs and Muslims use to refer to the expulsion of Arabs from the land of Palestine up to 1948. Anyway, I think the pro-Israel pundits are getting a taste of their own medicine, when they endlessly pushed and defended mistranslations of Arabs and Muslims such as the case with Ahmedinejad's speech and one of the two infamous Hamas Mickey videos. I've done some reading, and there are a lot of bloggers online who claim to speak hebrew that say "shoah" is commonly used to refer to disaster. That's fine with me, maybe Vilnai didn't mean "holocaust" after all. But it really won't change anything for Arabs or Muslims. Whether Israel wanted to inflect upon them a "holocaust" or a "disaster", it would still be the same. 80 Palestinians including men, women, children and the old, militants and civilians, die in response to the death of one Israeli, civilian or occupying soldier. Plus, it's not like Israeli officials never talked of wiping entire neighborhoods in Gaza before. Israel's interior minister, not his deputy, asked for such thing in response to the Qassam rockets not even a month ago.

Thothal, Budapest

1. In a hebrew text „shoa” can have two distinct meaning a) as a proper b) as a common noun. In an english one - capital letters aside - the same is true for, say, „great war”. Contrarywise „shoa” in an english – in fact in any non-hebrew – text interpreted automatically as a proper noun. The discussion is plagued by this simple but unacknowledged fact. (It should have been e.g. blindingly obvious that a Google Search for „shoa” turns up only Holocaust-related results in English.) Because Hebrew doesn't know capital letters the valid translation could and should be inferred from the context. There are simple cases of course: „It is a shoa that you failed your math exam again!” would be risible but „Yad Vasem is a monument for the victims of Shoa” is entirely appropriate. The context of Mr Vilnai's utterance is only slightly more complicated. Even BBC-hacks know that Hamas would annihilate Israel if only could and that the IDF could annihilate Hamas but the Olmert Government - characterized by excessive caution in his dealings with non-jews – wouldn't. Therefore the following – somewhat free – translation would be quite true to the intended meaning of Mr Vilnai: „We will kill Hamas members even if we cannot catch them in the rare moments not in the vicinity of some kindergarten.” 2. (To Bob Latchford) To quote Arash Norouzi the fiercest in redressing the injustice done to Ahmadinejad: „The inflammatory "wiped off the map" quote was first disseminated not by Iran's enemies, but by Iran itself. The Islamic Republic News Agency, Iran's official propaganda arm, used this phrasing in the English version of some of their news releases covering the World Without Zionism conference. International media including the BBC, Al Jazeera, Time magazine and countless others picked up the IRNA quote and made headlines out of it without verifying its accuracy, and rarely referring to the source.” What on earth has Ms Phillips' comment to do with that? More importantly: the russian people has a national home without communism, therefore the vanishing of zionism – from map or from the pages of time - is not comparable to the vanishing of the former. 3. (To Ravi) The meaning of „Holocaust” - „burned in whole” as a full sacrifice to the Gods (of old) – does express the essence of esoteric nazism. The quick and universal acceptance of this ominous term is truly remarkable.

Ann

Thothal: --almost-- correct. It has to be "Yad Vasem is a monument for the victims of THE Shoa". That is quite evident to anyone fluent in Hebrew and English.

Ann

"But it really won't change anything for Arabs or Muslims. Whether Israel wanted to inflect upon them a "holocaust" or a "disaster", it would still be the same. 80 Palestinians including men, women, children and the old, militants and civilians, die in response to the death of one Israeli, civilian or occupying soldier." -- whine, whine, whine. Once again, NOTHING is ever the responsibility of the Arabs, right? Get it into your head: STOP MURDERING JEWS, and the Jews will not take action against you. You failed to learn this in 1948, 1956, 1967, 1973, 1982 - and you are reaping the results of this failure.

Jeremy Freedman

Mr Bob Latchford, You can quibble over words all day but Iran is dedicated to the destruction of Israel, along with many other groups like Hamas and Hizboallah. They have military parades with signs on missiles labeled US & Israel. Can you be any more obtuse? Hamas and the people of Gaza are reaping what they have sowed by launching missiles into Israel because they want to destroy Israel, not create another sham Arab country.

Arab Muslim

"NOTHING is ever the responsibility of the Arabs, right?" Well, two things. First, I don't see any Israeli apologist ever admitting that Israel is responsible for any ounce of tragedy in the region (how about 4 million tragedies in the form of refugees). Second, when a country like Israel does so much to terrorize, murder and demolish an entire society. Well, what has it left for the Arabs to be responsible for? Not much really. Anyway, congratulations on the very intelligent reply to my comment. "whine whine whine," that's a really nice way of detracting from the events unfolding today.

from Haifa

Let us be real and "call a spade a spade" open any Hebrew English dictionary and you will find the word "shoah" and this what you will find "holocaust, calamity, cataclysm, catastrophe, bale" whether it starts with "the" or not you will receive the same wording, now whether it was a slip of a tongue or not that is a different matter but I personally at least expect an apologies from Vilnai for this "slip of a tongue"!!!

Sarah

it seems that all of you foreigners from england are selectively googling and trying to find shreds of non-existent etymological evidence to explain away what is patently obvious to absolutely everyone in the region. i can see you working your hardest to fight in the battle of bullshit semantics but this is a lost cause. your propaganda will fall on mostly deaf, anxious ears in the context of the current military operations taking place in gaza now. israel is a terrorist state and these freudian slips are disturbingly embarrassing revelations.

Oskar

What nonsense. Hashoah indeed means "The Holocaust", and shoah means 'holocaust'. Obviously, Vilnai did not threaten Gaza with "The Holocaust", but with "a holocaust". True, shoah can also mean disaster, but there are many other Hebrew words for disaster. Vilnai's choice of the most ominous of all possible words is telling. Reuters' translation is correct.

Danny

Well Sarah - presumably from the UK - I am from Israel and hebrew is my native tongue. I have to say I have seen no evidence that Mr Vilnai used the word "shoah" at all. As far as I can tell it is Reuters fabricating a story. Apparently photoshopped pictures won't cut it anymore and there is not a single comment on this topic in any of the hebrew press, which there would be if it had happened. Does Nidal Al-Mughrabi - writer of the Reuters article alleging this event - know hebrew better than all us Israelis? And does he listen to army radio? Come to think of it do you?

Thothal, Budapest

(To Ann) My knowledge of Hebrew is nil and my English – as you correctly observed – is much less then fluent. Nevertheless I wanted to emphasize that even without the “The” and capital letter “shoa” would mean “attempted genocide on the Jews by Hitler” in an english text. (To Sarah) From your calling Israel a terrorist state I infer that either a) for you semantics as such is bullshit or b) you are lacking in common sense or c) malevolent beyond belief. I take you are an israeli and I hope for b). You surely know that until now Israel won all her shooting wars whereas lost all propaganda wars. In any case Hamas & Co are well aware of this fact and use accordingly the strategy of continous provocation combined with the method of human shields against retaliation. Consequently it is only common sense that each palestinan arab kid killed is a loss for IDF and a gain for Hamas. (To Oskar) Another consequence of said above is this: the assumption that Vilnai meant “a holocaust” is extremely improbable because it would be an empty and foolishly counterproductive threat. In fact less than improbable: it is false because “shoa” isn't equivalent to “holocaust”. Proof: the search for “calamity” - a harmless enough word - in the online hebrew-english dictionary www.milon.co.il/general get “shoa” ( אסון ) Whereas “holocaust” had had only one meaning for the greeks of old: total burning of a sacrifical animal or has nowadays: total destruction. Last but not least I elaborate a bit on one of my comments above. The original meaning of “holocaust” does express exactly what the esoteric nazism – from Himmler to Savitri Devi to Miguel Serrano – thinks of The Shoa. The Question: to which Gods have been the Jews sacrificed? The Answer: to the Gods of the Mme Blavatsky's New Age.

Paul

"My knowledge of Hebrew is nil and my English – as you correctly observed – is much less then fluent." So why on earth did you make such a long, involved comment earlier about Hebrew semantics Thothal? As the late Peter Cook once said, "You know nothing, keep it to yourself!"

Thothal

“Nothing” is exaggeration, dear Paul, besides: irrelevant. Show me a mistake – like Ann did – and I shall repent.

Thothal

Found a mistake! The search for “calamity” in the dictionary above get שואה, אסון and the second is “hashoa” of course. (With “ha” and all! The lookup in http://www.babylon.com/define/106/Hebrew-Dictionary.html gives the same result.)

Paul

http://www.knesset.gov.il/shoah/heb/shoah.htm יום הזיכרון לשואה ולגבורה http://lib.cet.ac.il/Pages/holocaust.asp http://www.yadvashem.org/hp_he.htm No it doesn't, it says Shoah n. the mass slaughter of European civilians and especially Jews by the Nazis during World War II. HaShoah - The Holocaust The Holocaust (from the Greek holókauston from holos "completely" and kaustos "burnt"), also known as Ha-Shoah (Hebrew: השואה), Churben (Yiddish: חורבן), is the term generally used to describe the killing of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, as part of a program of deliberate extermination planned and executed by the National Socialist German Workers Party in Germany led by Adolf Hitler. No, you were not exaggerating Thothal, your knowledge of Hebrew really is "nil". Do you know what "Yom HaShoah" is Thothal? Don't play silly semantic games with something you just don't understand. You are almost bad as that traitor, Phillips. You both insult the memory of over six million dead in order to promote more killing. you should both be ashamed of yourselves.

Thothal

Ann

What drivel, Oskar. Do you even speak Hebrew? Shoah means disaster, end of. The mere fact that one synonyms was chosen instead of another means eff all, except to malevolent little antisemites.

Mike

Since Phil and most of my other adversarial friends are on this thread, kindly take a look at this 'Breaking News':
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/our-reign-of-terror-by-the-israeli-army-811769.html

As usual this piece will be hung out to dry, the author and his editor will have to bear all sorts of invective, and some will not only care to read it but from under their sad cloak of 'denial' will condemn it anyway.

Fabio P.Barbieri

Mike, Mike, Mike, you poor, naive, easily deceived person - I can get you to buy the Ritz Hotel if you can get a down payment ready. I mean, please. You take the Independent for a reliable source of news? The Independent either employs or used to employ (of course I don't read it any more, why should I pay money to be lied to?) Robert Fisk: the only living British journalist to have had his name turned into a verb.

(to fisk, vt: to display, by means of analysis and/or sarcasm, the internal hollowness, self-contradiction, or outright mendacity of a newspaper or magazine article. From the name of Robert Fisk, British journalist,notorious for biased or fraudulent reporting from Israel and the Middle East, but so inept that the mendacity of his writings is easily shown by the most superficial "fisking".)

logdon

Fat chance. The so called 'left' has no abandoned itself to Islam. Why? I have no idea. It contradicts all the left once stood for. Gay rights. Womens rights. Separation of church and state. Freedom of expression. Removal of capital punishment. All Trashed.

Claire

After reading through the majority of your quotes for research on a paper on cultural encounter and mistranslation in the middle east it is clear that not one of the posters here have a degree in translation.

1) in regards to the word 'shoah' this can only be used for 'THE Holocaust' if it contains the 'ha' prefix before hand - something similar to the difference between 'The Holy Land' and 'holy land' (and plot of consecrated ground.

2)Mr Latchford is completely write in his translation of Ahmadinejad's speech.

Word for Word translation:

Imam (the Imam i.e. Ayatollah Khomeini) ghoft (said) een (this) rezhim-e (regime) ishghalgar-e (occupying) qods(Jerusalem) bayad (must) az safheh-yye ruzgar (from page of time) mahv shavad (vanish from).

Now some have argued here that this is more or less the same but if you consider the illucutionary and perluctionary elements you will see that the Iranian president was calling for regime change and not war.

In the context of the full speech this call for regime change and removal from pages of time was further supported by comparing it to the Shah of Iran, the Soviet Union and Saddam Hussein.

Now some of you need to brush up on your grammer, linguistics and wider general knowledge

Hadrian

The BBc say anything favourable towards Israel? You must be joking!
Whatever the faults of Israel Hamas style scorched earth policy is no answer. Chances are, anyway, that if Hamas ever gained power they'd just end up blowing each other up such is their raging intolerance.

Redmond McDonagh

Back in 1985 Claude Lanzmann produced a documentary on the Nazi's Final Solution to the Jewish Problem.
Its title was simply "Shoah".

So it's easy to see why there could be confusion as to the meaning.

Guy Gardiner

Melanie Phillips says it exactly as it is and expresses brilliantly the points of view heard throughout the country. I rely on her to be able to collect my thoughts coherently and to be able to argue my side when confronted by those zealots who seek to destroy our long held values.