A very vulnerable age

Fergus Pickering

I know nothing about poor John. But I think it is the case that very often when a boy commits suicide for no reason that anyone can see it is because he knows he is gay and he doesn't like it. I really have no idea what to do about that or even if there is anything to be done. Probably there isn't. And anyone who thinks that the young nowadays are totally accepting of gays is ignorant or is deceiving himself.

Paul B

Very sad Susan. Its true that young men to commit suicide by particulary violent dramatic means, shooting or hanging themselves in particular. Why this should be is open to debate, myself I think its designed to hurt those close to them, but I`m no expert.

If its true what Fergus say, (myself I`m not sure, but I would not totally disregard his theory) then surely that says more about us a society ,that someone can be driven to the depths of despair and take his own life just because he has discovered hes homosexual. In an instant it makes all the gay rights campaigns and the sex education classes at school that include lessons on gay sex all the more the vital.

SUSAN HILL

I think that may well sometimes be true and you are absolutely right in your latter point. There is a good deal of bullying, and 'bullying talk' about gays. I fear it has got worse because of the aggressive agenda of some gay rights organisations who have pushed for not merely acceptance/equality but positive discrimination. The young are always counter-suggestive, it is in the nature of the beast, and if the official line promoted is that it is 'good to be gay' or even 'better to be gay' they will take the opposite stand. I have no idea whether this was John's problem of course.

Fergus Pickering

I don't think more sex education classes would make much difference. The persecution is fuelled very often by fears that the persecutor is himself (or herself - girls are just the same) a bit gay or a lot gay, and they don't like it either. Teenagers are by nature violent and intolerant. That is the way they are. Come to that, children are also violent and intolerant - cruel little savages really. Most of us get better, don't you think? I remember an early novel of your, Susan, and of course there's Lord of the Flies.

Frank P

It amazes me that after a sadly typical story these days of desperate adolescence, the immediate reaction of the first three posters is to moot the posthumous possibility that he was bent and couldn't handle it. I would have thought that his parents had enough on their plate without having to deal with sexual slander. Talk about adding insult to injury.

Is there nothing that can't be twisted into implied pro-homosexual propaganda?

It is really pointless speculating without more knowledge of his background and relationships, but surely it is just as, if indeed not more, likely that heterosexual rejection was behind his desperation? Most of us remember the first 'Dear John' experience - devastating; in my tender youth it was usually during conscription when the camaraderie and nous that was available in that milieu saw one through it with the aid of a few jars with your mukkahs and much repetition of the old saw "More fish in the Sea" rather than the old .303 (an issue item in those circumstances)as a solution for heartache. I fear the induced solitude of this infernal digital medium has a lot to answer for.

Fergus Pickering

Frank P, we are not talking about John. We know nothing about him. Heterosexual rejection at seventeen? EVERY BOY is rejected at seventeen. I should jolly well think so. Absolute par for the course. That's why love poetry gets written. Even Romeo was rejected - by Rosalind or whatever her name was. Part of you wants rejection. Then you can get back to hanging out with your mates which is altogether more seventeenish.

Paul B

Suicide a form of self loathing Fergus, well yes, suicide is that. Suicide is a toxic mixture of many conflicting emotions, its also ultimatly an extremely selfish act. Its should not really be of surprise that teenagers commit suicide. Their emotions are running wild after all, they are not balanced and haven`t learnt to shrug their shoulders at life injustices and wrongs. Teenagers are also very self absorbed and selfish.

Pete

Effortlessly unpleasant Frank - well done.

If this is the level of 'debate' that a young man's emotional and psychological agony and subsequent suicide provokes then may I suggest that he is better off out of it?

Perhaps he didn't see a place for himself in a fatuous, solipsistic, mean-spirited society. In a society wherein a good roast dinner and a couple of glasses of wine are supposed to wash away any torturous doubts about the point of a life. Perhaps he was right. Perhaps he was wrong. Perhaps if there hadn't been a gun in the house (and why was there the need for a gun in the house?) he would simply have carried on drinking more wine and woken up depressed and hung over but alive. Perhaps the suicidal moment would have passed. Perhaps there was no particular reason but many small, perfectly rational (to the disenchanted mind) ones that formed an annihilating crescendo. And perhaps he simply wanted the pain of his mind to end as quickly as possible, and could not wait for the suicidal thoughts to subside only to return again and again as they surely would. The reason was within him and is now lost to us.

Bunnykins

What a lot of supposition about this boy's state of mind at the time he killed himself. Surely, since those who commit suicide are mentally unbalanced, it's rather a worthless debate. Who can know why? Our only concerns should be for those poor family members left to cope with the aftermath.

London Calling

Very Sad Susan. But put very simply depression does not have to have a particular reason that can be explained, it is caused by stress and stress is triggered by outward and inward interference to ones well being emotionally and physically. In most cases a loved one or friend is aware of theses changes when someone close to them behaves differently and is cause for concern, however the silent depression as I call it is the hardest to detect and very often leads to suicide if not treated early.

On appositive note the subject of men coping with depression is slowly being recognised and awareness is improving thanks to more openness to the illness, especially by celebrates and sportsmen. As in the works of Frank Bruno “we are only human after all” and I would add fragile as well as strong.

Here’s a link to the writer Edward Monkton who recently wrote about his depression, which explains the experience of depression with more clarity and understanding.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/mental_health/article6925762.ece

Fergus Pickering

Come Bunnykins, you can't get away with the statement that all those who commit suicide are mentally unbalanced. I can't believe that many young people in good health, scarcely more than children, have a good reason to end their lives, but an adult can commit suicide and be perfectly sane. Illness, bereavement, the feeling that, all things considered, you have had enough, all these seem to me perfectly good reasons for suicide. Also the loss of honour. The Romans thought so and I think so too.

Frank P

Pete

"Effortlessly unpleasant Frank - well done."

"The reason was within him and is now lost to us."

Quite! So why attribute his agony to latent or actual homosexuality? Now that's what I call contrived unpleasantness (and apparently effortless too in this day and age).

Btw, I don't perceive a great deal of agonising on the part of those who indulge in sodomy in this era; they appear to practice it ad nauseum and celebrate it publicly at every opportunity. Very unpleasantly so. But it is presumptuous in the extreme to attribute the trait to a suicide case who can no longer speak for himself. The tendency to 'out' the famous departed and thereby claim them for 'the cause' is now commonplace and odious.

Bunnykins

"Come Bunnykins, you can't get away with the statement that all those who commit suicide are mentally unbalanced. I can't believe that many young people in good health, scarcely more than children, have a good reason to end their lives,'
Well, Fergus, that rather proves my point...

SUSAN HILL

There were several guns because his father and brother shoot.. a high percentage of country people shoot and so keep guns, legitimately, with licences.

EC

What a terrible tragedy.

Guns are designed for only one purpose - to kill. Putting to one side the issue of hunting and shooting for the purpose of vermin/pest control, shooting animals for "sport" doesn't seem quite right - not unless it's for the pot.

Frank P

EC

"...not unless it's for the pot."

Which EC is stirring with a very large wooden spoon. :-)

Fergus Pickering

What on earth has shooting animals got to do with anything?

Blur eyed boy

This is my first post, this article inspired me to register and comment. I am now in my 40's. When I was in my late teens I felt all kinds of angst. I did not know who or how to turn to anyone. I could not and would not speak to anyone about it. It would not have mattered if councillors or doctors etc. were available, I simply could not or would not express what I felt. One day it all got too much and, as was living on a farm I walked into the utility room, opened the gun cabinet and placed the shotgun into my mouth. I did not pull the trigger , but sobbed uncontrollably for several minutes and eventually put the gun away.
I still can't get straight in my mind what in particular was upsetting me, I still don't know what sent me into the utility room that day, but all I know is that I am a happily married man with 2 beautiful children and I will be keeping a close eye on my son. Yes I have spoken to my wife about this. I know this doesn't offer any answers, but I hope my comments help someone. Fergus - I think your comments are far too simplistic and really don't help the debate.

hadrian

Leaving aside the 'gay issue', I think it is true that the high incidence of suicide rests on a problem runs to a deeper, spiritual level that afflicts our culture in general these days. It is not unconnected to your post on the phenomenon of 'boredom' opprssing many youngsters today. We are a largely cynical, nihilistic, unbelieving society that ingrains these attidudes as virtues in our young. Consequently we see the Scripturally warned bitter fruits- 'without God and without hope in the world' ( Ephesians) and 'All those who hate Me( God's revealed Wisdom) love death.' It is an awful and sad commentary on our brave, new, supposedly clever and sophisticated attitudes to life. As a former teacher I could see it emerging ever more clearly and alarmingly over my years in the profession. I blame much of the humanistic thinking that invaded not just teaching and education but all levels of influence. I fear it will take years to get it out of our system. These deaths, some at least, represent the sad victims of such a prevalent mentality.

Jeremy

Blur eyed boy:

"I still can't get straight in my mind what in particular was upsetting me..."

Interesting. Because nobody also knows what was "upsetting" the seventeen-year-old who did pull the trigger. And of course by the time one is in one's forties, it is often difficult to remember precisely what it was that upset one as a teenager. But clearly it is not altogether unusual for adolescent males to flirt with suicide. The "why", however, remains elusive...

Fergus Pickering

Blur eyed boy. A very interesting post. I am not sure we can blame this sort of undirected anst at our modern world. After all, the word was used (invented?) by Kierkegaard a long time ago. And Goethe, in one of the many books I have no intention of reading, 'The Sorrows of Young Werther' was supposed to have triggered a wave of suicides among boys at the beginning of the nineteenth century. So perhaps this is something that is always with us. A word about my simplistic post. I read out Susan's blog to my wife and said, 'What do you think?' 'I should think he was probably gay', she said. She was thinking, I suppose, of a student who hanged himself in the woods for just that reason. If a woman is murdered the police, I am told, focus on her husband or partner first. Why? Because it's the husband, usually, who dunnit.

Your experience is far more interesting than my guess. But I must say I think my guess is more often right. But in either eventuality there's not much to be done about it, as is often the case in this vale of tears.

Jeremy

All of this simplistic tabloid rubbish about "being gay" is just that.

For many (but by no means all) adolescence is a time of sexual experimentation and the fairly mutable sexual orientation that goes with it. Most of these youths will later settle down into conventional heterosexual relationships of the sort that Fergus undoubtedly enjoys with his wife (Gawd bless 'er!). That was point one.

Point two - and here, I think, Fergus has hit upon something - adolescence and young adulthood constitute the periods in which one is most open to the nihilistic romanticism of existential thought, music, poetry and literature. The fact of the matter is that many of the artists whom young people might be inclined to admire - Nietzsche, Kurt Cobain, van Gogh and Hemingway spring to mind (I dare say there are more contemporary names which could be added to the list) - either themselves committed suicide or argued in favour doing so.

Some young adults might be inclined to take these artists, arguments and influences more literally than others. Ergo...young suicide. There is a melancholy romanticism attached to the association of Youth with Death which can be traced through our culture.

Austin Barry

Whatever the reason, 'John' was just a callous coward for putting his family through this bloody nightmare.