It’s Mrs Wells to you

CG

I believe that when strangers addressed Harold Pinter in an overly familiar manner, he would reply "I didn't realise we were at school together".

Anne Wotana Kaye 1

Susan, Regarding names, I can give you another example of today's sick behaviour. I had the misfortune to work briefly for a charity, run by a busybody type woman. I ended my letters by adding 'Mrs' before my first and surname. Bossy Boots told me that this was out of order, since the 'Mrs' gave a middle-class impression, and I should rather use 'Ms'. I replied, I will try to be an Oik if that will please you.

Richard Manns

As a medical student, if I am to address a patient, I always ask them how they'd like to be called.

I cannot recall the last patient to specify their formal title, and in any case, when talking about the patient to colleagues, you use the formal title to avoid confusion.

Perhaps you'd respond differently to my question, but you're apparently in the minority so you should hardly be surprised that most patients are addressed by their first names, since they chose that.

Chris

As your Coronation Street example shows, this informality doesn't reign supreme. It's limited to the representatives of the state, who treat us all with snide condescension.

Bill Rees

In a rather strange way I enjoy thinking of a lady as 'Mrs Wells' rather than by her first name.
It probably goes back to watching 'The Avengers' as a young boy, when 'Mrs Peel' was probably the first lady to make me realise that I was a heterosexual, and that a lady should be treated with respect.

Doctor Fergus Pickering

One way to stop this is to ask your interlocutor his/her first name and use it incessantly. This may not work in the case of a chummy nurse but I wouldn't really mind. If I'm Fergus and she's Kimberley then wotthehell. Doctors however do not like being addressed as Sid or whatever it is. They like to be called Doctor, though of course they are mot really doctors at all. It is a mere courtesy title. An aside about that. I have a friend in the United States who is a proper doctor - he has a Ph.d. However, he NEVER uses the title though he doesn't ta all mind be called Professor (he is one of those too). He says that these days absolutely ANYONE can have a doctorate. And indeed that is true.

Em

My first name is one that takes people several attempts to get right and it's just easier in certain situations - for doctor/dentist/hairdresser etc - to use my much simpler surname.

When I was delivering my second child and the midwife wanted to cheer me on she asked my husband what my first name was and used a mangled version of it throughout which neither of us wanted to spend time or energy in correcting! I would so much rather she'd stuck to my surname even if it might have sounded formal because, to me, my surname sounds much friendlier simply because there is no pronunciation difficulty.

At our doctor's surgery (where I say Dr X and they say Mrs X, no problem) there is a tendency to shorten any 'difficult' foreign doctors' names because the patients might have difficulty learning them. I can see that this makes a sort of sense but, as my husband frequently says, there would be no problem if they were footballers.

SUSAN HILL

RICHARD MANN. I think many people, especially older ones, don`t like to appear stuffy or stand offish by asking to be called Mrs or Mr..or, of course, they may be perfectly happy to be called by their first name. At least it is a step forward in courtesy if people are given the choice.
Incidentally, we have PPP membership and whenever I have been in the Nuffield hospital as out or inpatient no one has EVER done anything but use my formal name. I am automatically Mrs Wells there. I have no idea what message this gives but it is an interesting difference.

SUSAN HILL

DR FERGUS PICKERING. Before my husband was elevated to the Professorship he was Dr Wells. He was, our old GP told him once, 'the proper doctor here.' But if he went anywhere new or when we labeled holiday luggage he never put Dr because he got too many people teling him about their symptoms and calling him to attend emergencies.

Stella Stroud

The chance to be stuffy, standoffish or to maintain any dignity at all would be nice. Yesterday I was sitting with an elderly relative who is currently in hospital. He is in his late 70s and far from well. During my visit a harassed nurse came to fill in yet another ream of paperwork about his condition. The questions, asked pretty loudly in case he should not be able to hear, and thus audible to nearly everyone in the ward, included questions about his ethnic origin, religion and sexual orientation. All subjects that someone born in the 1930s might be happy to discuss privately but probably does not want broadcast, at high volume, to a room full of strangers.

When entering any NHS establishment you have to accept that you leave privacy and dignity at the door. Sadly, you often have to accept that you will encounter quite a bit of casual neglect and cruelty too. Be grateful if the worst thing that they do to you is call you by your first name.

Fergus Pickering

Susan, I am sure your husband's doctorate is kosher because he got it some time ago. Nowadays you can have a doctorate in English literature (poetry) without knowing what a sonnet is or the difference between heroic couplets and quatrains. I can see you shudder with horror.

Andre

I remember a friend, a civil servant, on an acrimonious picket line back in the 70s. The police were out in force. A senior manager blustered through. 'Let me by, sonnie,' the man said to my pal. 'They call me Mr Smith,' he said aggrieved. Then out of the corner of his eye he caught a police constable quietly chuckling who whispered to him, 'You've been watching too many old movies, mate.'

hadrian

One of our church's senior ministers, and a most avuncular and pleasant gentleman, some time ago invited me to address him by his Christian name. If I persisted in calling him 'Mr MacLeod' he'd feel obliged to start calling me 'Dr B-'. I listened politely to his injunction but have never felt comfortable complying with his wish and generally still give him his formal address. Happily he too still calls me by my first name! One feels age and maturity deserve a proper degree of respect and deference. As for the 'Ms' monstrosity, can you imagine James Bond resorting to a 'Ms Moneypenny' for comforting advice?! It doesn't bear thinking about! What kind of state have we reached when it is a badge of 'middle class' shame to be married so that 'Mrs' is out?! These things filter down from the top and are another striking instance of why we need to see the back of this dreadful, dreadful government with its intense loathing of traditional British, Christian values.

Austin Barry

"What kind of state have we reached when it is a badge of 'middle class' shame to be married so that 'Mrs' is out?!"

I always thought that "Ms" was devised by rampant feminists to avoid "Miss" which stigmatized unmarried, mature women as hopeless, sexless losers. Also, what happened to "spinster" which, perhaps for the same reason, has vanished from common usage.

Sir Graphus

So, no Ms Hill, then?

adele geras

Nearly 39 years ago, my husband took our baby daughter into hospital to be vaccinated for something or other. He was addressed by everyone as MRS GERAS. The sight of a man holding a tiny baby in a shawl was more unusual then! I don't mind being called Adele as my surname is not one that many people can pronounce correctly! Since you ask: with a Hard 'G' and to rhyme exactly with TERRACE!

Splotchy

I'm a doctor and I ALWAYS use Mr or Mrs/Miss (unless someone has clearly stipulated 'Ms'), and I do this regardless of whether some nurse has just lead me to 'Bill' or 'Doreen'. If someone wants to be familiar they can suggest it, otherwise I'd rather be formal; it conveys respect, and when someone is ill and vulnerable, that matters.

For me, I am only ever 'Dr' at work; in all other parts of life/forms/ID etc, I am 'Mrs'. I am curious however, as to why Mrs Wells does not write as Susan Wells?

hadrian

As a retired schoolmaster, with a Ph.D. doctorate not in the subject I mainly taught but in theology, it always created confusion amongst pupils. They would amusingly expect one to be an expert in First Aid when any accidents happened. I found it simpler to be a plain 'Mr' when in school and most of the time outside- though many neighbours etc., did know my 'proper' academic title and would address me accordingly. Whatever the etiquette I do think we had a far more mutually deferential and respectful society right up to the late Seventies. Now vulgarity and rudeness are lauded as strength and politeness and respectfulness are crassly derided as being hopelessly 'class ridden'. Sad times indeed.
Mind you I do recall various instances of pomposity even in the brave, new, permissive world of academia: one lecturer in sociology graduated to a doctorate status and thereafter stood on his dignity if one failed to get the title right- no mere 'Mr' for him!!

Sarah AB

I was briefly a 'Mrs' before I got my doctorate. A 25 year old 'Mrs' was unusual in academia and occasioned some remark! I don't like being called Dr Brown (except in the context of formal letters etc) as I always think it sounds satirical or (especially in emails from my children's teachers) cross.

Sarah AB

I hope I'm allowed two comments in a row as I've just remembered hearing about how one of his colleagues asked (the poet) J H Prynne what his wife's name was. 'Mrs Prynne' was the rather forbidding response.

SUSAN HILL

SPLOTCHY. The answer to the name under which I write is easy. 1. Hill is my maiden name. I published my first book under it in 1960 and I was not married till 1975 and 12 books later. I had by then built up a readership and you don`t throw that away.
2. Even if that were not the case, I do prefer my maiden/writing name for work but my married name for absolutely everything else. It separates the job from the home. That's all.
And I am either Miss or Mrs - never ever ever Ms anything at all. Gross prefix. I am proud to have my own writing name and it went with a genuine 'Miss' I am proud to be married and to have Mrs for the rest of life. Simple really.

Em

Yes, I agree that Ms is a difficult title which never took off. But part of its origin was simple: men are known as Mr from an early age, women as Miss until they are married and 'earn' the title of Mrs which I've always found irritating with its implication that Miss is somehow inferior. (As in failed to get a Man to raise her status.)

In other countries there is no problem. Maturity alone will change, eg, Mademoiselle to Madame without her having to marry first.

Peter From Maidstone

Em, it is surely only you rown perception that the title 'Mrs' is earned? I have never thought that of my wife or any woman. It is only the shortened form of Mistress, which indicated a married woman who ran the household and had her own authority over servants.

In a well to do household the family children might be 'young master smith' and 'miss smith' indicating their juvenile status. But the term Master and Mistress described first of all people who had authority over their own households, and then only by use and derivation all men and women.

Em

Peter from Maidstone, yes, earn is the wrong word. I meant to say that a woman's title (usually) denotes her marital status in a way that a man's does not.

Why does this matter? Well, it won't matter to the vast majority but it does to some so the Ms is useful, if ugly in its sound.

I use Mrs most of the time and think nothing of it but there are occasions when it has been useful to use Ms.

Tendryakov

From doctors and nurses and the like, I prefer plain un-nuanced Mr, but I do dislike "sir", because it seems overly formal, in fact it suggests a faux formality in order to avoid mistakes. I very much dislike "sir" from people in charity shops and other down-to-earth such places - I always ask them to call me either "love" or "duck".

Linda Smith

I find it absolutely inappropriate to be addressed by my first name both on the telephone and in correspondence by strangers when I am conducting formal business with firms and public bodies.

SUSAN HILL

Linda Smith. Indeed. If anyone from a bank or similar rings and asks if they are speaking to 'Susan' I always say No. It's even worse when they go on 'Howryeallright?'

hadrian

On the narrower issue of formal titles and rank, I always think it a great shame that the old female title 'goodwife' has disappeared from the language!
And I can see no objection to reserving the title of 'master' to unmarried men!

Linda Smith

I have before me a letter received from the Health Profession Council a few day ago which states:
"Please sign and return to me if your happy to proceed".
My only consolation is that the writer did not address me by my first name.

Linda Smith

I have just noticed I left the "s" off the end of the word "Professions" in my previous comment. Regrettably, I doubt that the person who typed "your" instead of "you're" in his letter to me would recognise his own error. They stopped teaching basic grammar years ago.

hadrian

As a former teacher of English, I can certainly confirm your worst suspicions that 'formal grammar' was ditched long ago. Thus a pupil's linguistic analytical skills was put at a discount and the fuzzy notion of 'personal creativiy' vaunted up. Personally I always suspected it was largely owing to the fact those slipping into the profession in the last few decades were themselves too feeble minded to comprehend those basic skills. The same trend has now infected foreign language teaching and learning so that kids with a natural aptitude for language are rightly praised for the talent but the actual process of acquistion is terribly unmethodical and hap-hazard and operates at a naive and subconscious level.This does not, in my view,facilitate a good comprehensive absorbing of the language being learned. It also means that whereas in the past conscious grammatical and logical skills were being tested this is no longer the case.
When I taught I was an uncompromising traditionalist so that basic spelling/orthograpgy rules, punctuation, parsing, sentence analysis followed by a full literary critical aparatus ( eg, figures of speech, style, poetic prosody) were all inculcated. Many of my colleagues actively disliked such a reputedly 'elitist' approach but the odd thing was my brighter pupils loved it! If it is an eductaional sin thus to differentiate between the 'clever' and those with less aptitude then I ask myself what the hell the point of the exercise is at all! The socialistic egalitarianism of the 'all must have prizes' brigade has done immense damage to our schooling and our pupils no favours whatsoever. In the real world all must NOT have prizes and our nation MUST keep up its standards of excellence and real achievement if we are not to be overtaken by other, more diligent peoples. This is a lesson the PC crew detest.

Rosemary Hall

I agree with the doctor that the best way is to ask someone how they would like to be addressed. I am happy to be addressed "Quaker fashion" as Rosemary Hall, or as Ms Hall. I cannot understand the objection to Ms; it is simply a way of treating women the same as men - giving them a title which does not depend on their marital status. (I have even been asked whether I was Miss or Mrs when I was on the phone to ask someone to help me because water was pouring through my ceiling - in which circumstances whether I was married or not was irrelevant!) People often address me as "Mrs" - should I be all the time correcting their? -usually I can't be bothered. But I hate being adressed as "dear"-it is simply rude.