Another Voice

Don

The first words upon meeting God must must be -"You sure have some explaining to do!!!"

richard payn

Good for Thomas. He doubts. He wants evidence. Jesus gives it to him and he is convinced. Jesus is who he claims to be.

Thus Thomas' response: 'My Lord and my God!'

Why should anyone need to take a leap of faith when the New Testament seeks a reasoned response to reasonable evidence?

Of course, the contributors to the New Testament could be deceived and deceivers. But, for my money, they are honest men recording the astonishing words and events surrounding the life, death, resurrection and ascension of Jesus.

For a person to put their trust in the Jesus they present seems to me to be the most reasonable and sensible thing to do.

Jak

I reach the conclusion that God exists through reason by observing the universe and making conclusions based on the evidence around me.

As such, I am convinced God exists and do not have doubt - having eliminated doubt with reason...

Rob Cremona

Nothing I have ever seen, read or heard could ever convince me of some supernatural being; omnipotent or mystical.

Jak's common stubborn reasoning is no more than: 'well I believe, you must be either foolish or a rebel if you don't' (my italics).

In actual fact, quite the opposite is true. People like myself delve deep to find solutions, to understand the meaning of religious institutions (so many to choose from) and their value in society over centuries of idealogical wars.

Any child will tell you that they cannot all br right! So which religion is the correct one to follow?

And why is it that neurotheological studies can easily define the reasoning behind the human psyche and the human attraction and genuine need to be a part of an institution?

These, and many other, questions can be reasonably tackled when those wishing to find an answer to their blind faith, accept that eons of space/time have allowed life to be created and exist whereas religion is a man-made safety barrier, sometimes much needed in a bewildered society. However, history has proved religious institutions to be a curse in the long term, at best: yet false persecuting bigotted associations at worst.

Cyril K

It makes you cross, doesn't it, when your opponent in debate is not exactly where you want him to be. It would have been so easy to pin him to the board if only he had stuck to the absolutist position. Ha! You admit to faith, therefore you cannot doubt. And if you do not doubt, you're obviously a nitwit.

Life is not like that, as you often acknowledge in other contexts, Matthew. Faith is not a decision. Faith is something that develops in an irregular fashion over time. Some days it's there, scattering doubts to the four winds. Sometimes the doubts crowd in. All the greatest spiritual writers have acknowledged doubt.

Our positions are in a way quite similar. I see faith as a goal to be striven for (in the knowledge that I will probably fail -- in this life, anyway). You strive for the opposite certainty. You hold yourself out as wishing that you could dispense with your doubts. I don't believe you. Half the spice of life is doubt, whether of your type or my type. Just don't try and hog it all for yourself.

Tony Konrath

Why would anyone want to have faith?

It strikes me as a strange thing to yearn for, a return to the implicit feelings of childhood - that you are always safe, that someone will always come when the lights are out and monsters are roaming the bedroom.

Those who "have faith" seem to remove from their contemplations the possibility that what they want, so desperately, may not be there.

Faith, I think, is an attempt to negate the fears of injustice, self doubt and death. "If I have faith enough I don't need to feel scared ever again."

It's no way for a grown up to behave!

MDA

This is as bad as the Irish priest who shouted at me in the confessional when I admitted to doubts at the age of 19, seriously embarrassing my mother who was in the same church. I am an agnostic Catholic ( and I believe that at some stage in his life Bernard Williams called himself an atheist Catholic)and that is how it is. 'Conscience' for me and loving my neighbour and my enemy and making peace with my brother are all things that were inspired by a Christian upbringing. It is my way of being truthful and honest. Others may find truth in atheism. Fine for them. But why should an atheist be so concerned to tell people like me that faith is not faith without doubt? To me, this smacks of a kind of supremacist attitude. You can never be sure that your trust in another person will be rewarded, but you play games with yourself and him. I can never be sure that my acts of Christian kindness are entirely genuine (and have no expectation of reward), but I am happy to live with my doubting belief. And here again, that really should be no skin off anyone else's nose.

Rob Cremona

Don says: The first words upon meeting God must must be -"You sure have some explaining to do!!!" One can add to that: "What the hell are you trying to prove?"

God is undeniably our only way to initiate the universe, solar system and life itself. It really is as simple as that and
neatly fits hand in hand with a
prime-mover basic conclusive analysis justifying excistance whichever way one looks at it.

As for religions... well, just like Saddam, Hitler, Stalin, Mugabe and for so many others of this ilk; there is an equal share of the a more peace-loving type; i.e. St Francis, Jesus, Moses, Mohammed etc.
Certain characters of immense abilty and insight come and go leaving their mark for those intersted in historical theological
repercussions over the ages. These holy or unholy folk are legends... but then so are/were Charles Chaplin, Charles Darwin, Leonardo Da Vinci, Sir Timothy Berners-Lee etc.

Rational philosophy can never replace religious faith. Religious beliefs will always be the refuge of those who are quite happy to expore ('exploit'?) and lead ('follow')a life of their own cultural inheritance and individual comfort zone. Just so, the desire to form communities based on similar likes, hobbies, desires, ambitions, aspirations, fears, inferiority/superiority complexes.

'God'incorporates all initiation.

'Religion' is a double-edged sword; an unavoidable evil that incites man to cruelly destroy men, women, and children or
a merciful powerful inspiring weapon of love; both defy logic.

'Human Nature' is and will always be fallible, ever-changing in core values and ideology renderering
religious organisations unsafe for human consumption except in small doses.

Anthony

Surely the whole point of Faith is to encourage you to believe in something you cannot prove exists. If you could prove the claims of religion there would be no necessity for Faith. You would just Know, like we all know New York exists even for those of us who have never been there.

The arguments put forward in this article could equally be interpreted as a suggestion, that believers are so insecure in their faith they are desperate to persued others in order to strengthen their faith.

If I had been around when Jesus, or Mohammid, were around - in real life that is - I would certainly have a lot of questions to ask him and certainly to challenge him on many points - son of god or no.

Ray

The simple fact is that so many of the most wonderful truths in life cannot be totally validated empirically, uncomfortable as that might be to 'rational' minds like Richard Dawkins.

For example, my wife says she loves me. However, I cannot totally empirically prove it; after all, who knows what she gets up to when I'm not around, or even what's going through her head as we pass other guys in the street. However, I hear what she says to me and look at the way she cares for me, as well as examining the selflessness she demonstrates towards me, and conclude that - on balance of probability - yes, she probably does love me!

Faith in what God says about the universe, mankind and sinfulness and redemption is likewise a matter of placing similar trust in the balance of probability.

As someone else has already noted, Jesus didn't expect Thomas to suspend all credulity. In fact, Thomas was surely right to question whether a man who had been flogged, speared and crucified could ever rise from the dead. However, Jesus offered him just enough empirical proofs to persuade him it was so ("Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side"). In a similar manner, biblical prophecy concerning things like the advent of Christ and the return of Israel today offers mankind tantalising empirical proofs that perhaps God's word is true after all.

Otherwise, the rest is faith. Or as Peter writes in his First Epistle, "Though you have not seen Him, you love Him; and even though you do not see Him now, you believe in Him and are filled with an inexpressible and glorious joy, for you are receiving the goal of your faith, the salvation of your souls."

Rachel

Agree with Rob's well-balanced wisdom here: "Rational philosophy can never replace religious faith. Religious beliefs will always be the refuge of those who are quite happy to expore ('exploit'?) and lead ('follow')a life of their own cultural inheritance and individual comfort zone."

The article is very insular and doesn't take a widespread view that we are also victims of chance to the situation. Chance being where, when and to whom you were born to and grown up with.

BrianSJ

Matthew, perhaps you should become a Unitarian.
Rev. Dr. John G. McKinnon, for a long time the Minister of the Unitarian Church of Indianapolis:
“Unitarians believe that the universe is a reliable and consistent process which can be increasingly understood and utilised for the creation of values. The best way to secure knowledge is by use of reason and the body of human experience.
Of supreme importance is to be free in mind, belief, body and action. The good life is a co-operative human quest. Man is potentially good enough to make the quest worthwhile.”

Lyle

I'm concerned this will drive people away from Christianity. I don't think the major denominations believe Faith and doubt are incompatible. Whether or not they are desirable, doubts are reality for most of us. Mother Theresa admitted to doubts. Simply asserting "Faith means certainty, therefore you must be certain" helps no-one.
For the Christian, Faith is a theological virtue, not simply a matter of believing what you can't prove. Nor does the world divide into "proven" and "unproven": most of what most of us believe we accept on the basis of "evidence"(including authority) rather than "proof".

Matthew Parris implies he's doubt-free: I have my doubts.