Free speech and the ‘lyrical terrorist’

Stephen Rothbart

Well Rod, it's not just the "innocent" exponents of incitement to murder that get their collars felt by Mr. Plod. If you recall, the entire non-Muslim team of an indepenent TV company were subject to a Police persecution for daring to expose what some of these people were saying. Note that they did not threaten to kill anyone. This seems to be a worse abuse of Police power than making sure people who send odious emails do not succeed in inciting a violent crime, which clearly all the others did. Let us compare apples with apples.

Herbert Thornton

Ron's advice reminds me of the three monkeys' adage - "see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil" - with Ron lamenting that the government adds the threat - "or else..."

To ignore - whether willingly or under compulsion - the fact that Islamic terrorists are conducting a guerilla-style war against us seems to me to be a very unwise policy indeed.

Lucan C. Heraclitus

This 'poem' expressed pleasure at the idea of kidnapping and unoffending other, beheading this person, and displaying the whole process on the web. She is a terrorist and she should do time - lots of it. Liddle, I am just one of the multitude of your fans who relish a weakly dose of your finely nuanced rationcination, but you know sometimes you can be wrong.

Steve

I'm on Rod's side on this one, the big problem I have here is what has she actually done to endanger the lives of others? As far as I can tell writing truly crap poetry doesn't actually endanger health (well not unless you are a Vogon) As for possessing terrorist manuals, again what did she actually do with them? I find myself thinking back to the early 80's when some of my friends where involved in Class War, and they put up posters stating "Better Dead than Wed" i.e. a direct incitment to violence against specific individuals (Chas & Di, in case you are wondering) and some of them owned various bonb making manuals (Anarchists Cookbook anyone?) Now none of them had their collars felt, and in one or two cases they are now rather big fish in the business world. So what where they up to all those days ago? Well it was a combination of Youthful Knobbiness, and doing a bit of "I'm a rebel me" posing. Now if it can be shown that this particular woman was in the Al-Qaeda, Islamist foodchain somewhere then fair enough bang her up. But if she was (as it appears to me)just being a bit of a posing knobhead, then I start getting very worried about where this leads, and what this particular conviction means for free speech in general

Michael Dwyer

Sir, you do Oscar Wilde a technical injustice. He never practised sodomy as even the Marquis of Queensbury had to recognise. The famous card left at the Albemarle Club read 'posing (as a )somdomite'. (sic)

W thompson

Does this woman contribute anything to the wellbeing of our english society.Outrageous sentiments such as the offence she has been charged with are clearly a direct incitement to a inceasingly significant and dangerous elements seemingly contained within the Muslim community which clearly needs to be dealt with primarily by and within the Muslim community,allied to the firm but fair application of due legal process.

Iftikhar Ahmad

SAlaam In the past Muslim community was and still is victim of Paki-bashing in all walks of life by the British society. The British Establishment did nothing to tackle the prorblems faced by the Muslim community. I was demoted to a part time teaching in the 70s by the ILEA. High Court, House of Lords and even European Court of Human rights did nothing to restore my full time teaching. I can quate hundreds and thousands of examples of discrimination and bullying in employment, housing and education. Majority of Muslim children leave schools with low grades because state schools with monolingual teachers are not capable of teaching English to bilingual children. State schools could not teach them Arabic, Urdu and other communitylanguages, making them cut off from their cultural roots and their literature and poetry. Bilinguial Muslim children need state funded Muslim schools with bilingual Muslim teachers as role models. They need to be well versed in English to follow the national Curriculum and go for higher studies and research to serve humanity. Now Muslikm community is vicitm of terrorism by the British Establishment. Thousands and thousands of Muslim youths are being searched in the streets and hundreds of them are behind the bar with out any trial. It is a well known fact that British prisons are trainging ground for criminals. There is a posibility that when they come out from the prison cells, they will become real terrorists.

John E. Strafford

Well written Rod. When people are imprisoned for their thoughts or beliefs, rather than their actions we are entering dangerous territory. How long before we have a thought police or does this case suggest that we already have one?

Keith Budden

Julius Ceasar Act3 Scene 3. Mob of citizens. "Tear him to pieces he is Cinna, the conspirator" "No I am Cinna, the Poet" "Tear him for his bad verses."

The Brand Alchemist

Is this a case of "what you are shouts so loud in my ears I cannot hear what you say". Whatever happened to celebrating our differences and agreeing to disagree. Now it seems to be "agree to be a clone and think and do as we say.... or else"

Anthony

I'm surprised that Iftikhar (1:57pm) is teaching at all, his grammar is appalling.

paradisi

Twice today I've had to dredge my memory for something said by a French bloke a while back "I may not like what you say but I will fight to the death for your right to say it". The other time was in a political forum in Australia

Daniel Reid

Disagree with Rod on this. It is right that the police are at last cracking down on the extremists and that real punishment is starting to be handed out by the courts. The police cant seem to win cut them a bit of slack!

aussie

Rod's right - these people should only be gaoled if they conspire to or actually do something violent. Ridicule and exposure are the way to handle them but that needs critical journalists - not the PC closed minds of the Guardianistas and their ilk. And the UK's skewed vilification laws have destroyed free speech in the home of free speech. It's all very, very sad.

Jan

"Iftikhar Ahmad November 23rd, 2007 1:57pm If a British family relocates to France, say, they do not expect their children to be taught in English at the local school. Why do foreigners who arrive in Britain expect to be taught in any or all of their multifarious languages?

Rod Wheeler

Paradisi. I think the name of the "French bloke" you are searching for is Voltaire.But, apparently, he didn't actually say it but they were words put into his mouth by a biographer. A sentiment that I would agree with.We cannot surrender our right to freedom of speech.

david Beale

I agree Samina Malik should not be jailed for writing religious rants. It is dicusting that this prosecution was ever brought, shame on the CPS

Alex

As I understand it the offence was not bad poetry but possession of items which might be useful to terrorists without a "reasonable excuse". The items complained of included manuals on a sniper's rifle, poison, and hand to hand combat. There was no dispute that she was in possession of the items so the jury only had to decide if she had a reasonable excuse. The items complained of are avaibable on the internet and elsewhere but packaged differently - e.g. as military manuals, chemistry textbooks and self defence manuals, not as aids to terrorism. So if you are interested in military hardware, work as a qualified chemist and practice judo in your spare time, and you're not a Muslim, you can be certain of being acquitted.

Striver

Can a Muslim expect to get a fair trial in the current political climate? Is this the British version of the Spanish Inquisition? Are in a lul before the storm?

Matt

Rod's right. Freespeech is the sine qua non of our culture. Chip away at that, and you begin to wonder what the hell we stand for, what Western Civilisation means today (beyond greed and commerce). But the struggle against Islamic intolerance and global Jihad IS the defining struggle of our age - and there are many here and abroad who mean us harm AND have the means to do so. Many Brits are waking up to this - even if the Government and the 'Intellectuals' lag behind...

Fred.Offert

The judge on 6 Dec could give Malik a prison sentence, suspended for two years, to give her time to find an alternative country, Islamic of course, to which she can move to live happily ever after away from the hated kaffirs. Perhaps she has another passport already like most Pakistanis and Bangladeshis. This would be a satisfactory conclusion all round

Amber M. Islam

I suppose they jail people in Iran for radical writings. So why not here?

Elizabeth Elliot-Pyle

I would suggest that this person should go to a Muslim country, say ooh Sudan, and then see how her 'poems' are welcomed. Why do we allow this sort of freedom of speech in this country? Oh yes, that is what my father fought the war for. He was a spitfire fighter, and luckily for him he is now dead - otherwise he would be spinning in his grave. What on earth has this country come to? My dad, an honoourable man (remember them?) would weep at the state of this country.

Stephen

I agree that the "Inciting Hatred" laws are ridiculous and should be repealed. If they are not then logically a law prohibiting incitement to hatred of each and every social class should be enacted. Bit don't hold your breath for if that came to be the whole of the labour party would have to shut up or face long terms of imprisonment.Their inability to maintain an effective prison building prgram would mean that they would never catch up.

Jim

Anthony, Iftikhar may not teach English. He may teach Arabic, Urdu and/or other community languages. He may teach woodwork(is it still taught in British schools?), or PE, for example. In fact, he says he had his unfortunate problem back in the seventies,so he may no longer teach at all or, indeed, he may have got back into his stride and now be a well respected, much loved, Head teacher. Given the literacy skills of those I have known, that's where I'd put my money.

ManofHarveys

Ifthikar Ahmed is well known for spamming various websites and for never replying back (he spammed my ex Uni forum constantly). If you go on his 'schools'website they have some very strange articles on female circumcision,segregation and his bizarre claims that all teenagers in Afghanistan are virgins. He is a loon and should generally be ignored, Jims comments did make me laugh though as I'm pretty sure that he's not an actual teacher. As for Samina Malik she wasn't prosecuted for just writing dodgy poems, it wasn't even for her collection of videos of people being beheaded. It was because she downloaded several manuals that set out how to carry out terrorist bombings and an impartial jury of 12 people decided that she was guilty of a serious crime. I think people should cease the argument that she was just a silly girl and accept that she was one sick individual and we can base that on her video collection alone.

Chris Najman

I did a search on the Guardian website for 'Samina Malik' - looks like all of the articles are making the same 'free speech' point as Liddle is - bit mystified about why Rod is Guardian-Bashing - couldn't be that he's mentioned in the same anti-Amis article he quotes, could it? PS I'm highly critical of many things in the Guardian - but Liddle's claims don't seem to stand up http://browse.guardian.co.uk/search?search=Samina+Malik&sitesearch-radio=guardian&fr=cb-guardian&fr=cb-guardian

Beth

Thought Crime: Comparing apples with apples, I should like to know what would have happened to a teacher here who introduced her class to a much-loved golliwog - which a woman in her fifties might well have had. When I was in Kyoto I saw an antique shop window full of these harmless little creatures - presumably survivors of the 1970s purges here.

Dave

All this poor girl did was possess a large library of "How To" jihadist manuals, chat via e-mail with a terrorist attempting to kill british soldiers"Sis, I hope you get this email before anyone else. What is the system like at work? Is the checking still very harsh or have things calmed down a bit?" Malik and Qureshi were also talking about Heathrow security. Perhaps they were just flirting? If the Day has come where aiding and abbetting traitors and murderers is wrong, then its a sad sad day.