Ireland’s EU referendum will be no walkover

Austin Barry

Yesterday, the Irish Congress of Trade Unions came out, marginally (its council split 14 to 5 with 8 abstentions including that of the largest union) in favour of the Treaty and is recommending its 600,000 members to vote Yes. Also, for every vote No poster you see around Dublin there are 10 urging Yes. Further, that Sinn Fein, widely regarded as the party of dumb people, is supporting the No vote, is unhelpful. However, the Irish keep a close eye on events in the UK and the arguments made there against the EU resonate to some extent here, although you won't get your average Irishman to admit it. It may be a lot closer than everyone anticipates.

Pete Ward

Austin Barry - really ought to get off his knees and stop grovelling to his English masters. Deeply embarrassing.

Austin Barry

Pete, Sinn Fein member?

Terry Darcy

Poor Austin the English really did cut your genitals off. Didn't they.

Austin Barry

Chaps, I'm pleased that my rather prosaic post has led to such a lively debate.

VE Bott

If twice as many Irishmen vote for as against the treaty, I'm sure Mr Hannan will interpret it correctly .... as a sign of dissatisfaction with the Union.

Russ Bowers

Pete Ward makes an important (if vulgar) point about Austin Barry and his comments. There do seem to be a lot of people in ex-colonial societies who suffer from inferiority complexes. Mr. Barry would seem to be another desperate example. This is seems to be a lingering and sad legacy of empire. Let's pray that in another generation it will be somehow bred out. I will say an extra prayer for Austin.

Austin Barry

Russ, many thanks for the prayer, better if accompanied by alms, but there you go. You will be distressed to learn that last night Dublin's pubs and streets were packed with the young and old wearing Manchester United colours. I fear that this former colony has a long way to go before your prayers are answered.

Tony Cronin

I thought that Austin was a boys name.

Steven Rossi

Austin Barry should come to England and see how he gets treated. What a W******

William Norton

"...wearing Manchester United colours". What if they were wearing England tops how long would they have lasted alive. Mind you it's nice to know that should I choose to visit the Emerald Isle I shall have a trusty manservant in Mr Barry.

Austin Barry

Steven, I rarely visit England these days as it is quite disagreeable and seems to be declining into some kind of Dystopia which may explain your rather churlish comment. I do though urge you to visit Ireland where there are lower petrol prices, no residential council or water taxes and, of course, much lower rates of corporation tax which is why so many of your English companies are re-locating here. The women are also much prettier than those frightful English girls so well described by Rod Liddle in today's edition.

Perry Larkin

Good God! Does this Barry character know what a complete arse he is making of himself.

Ludo

This Barry guy writes more like an English toff than an Irishman. He makes some good points and given the vituperative response probably scores some hits. On the topic the referendum, it is meaningless. The EU will charge ahead regardless.

Dafydd

How cau u be an Irish Nationlist if you vote Yes as you are giving powers to an alien corrupt power crazy institution which we will never chake them off unless by force.
This is not a joke in years down the line our Grandchildren will hate us because they will be living in a police state and un-deomocratic.
Taff

Austin Barry

Perry, oh dear, when Englishmen start to mention arses the world quickly turns its back to the wall.

Mary Roche

I consider myself pro-EU and pro-Euro, but will be voting no for the first time on my 4th EU referendum. The reason: erosion of sovereignty, concerns that the Charter of Fundamental Rights will make the ECJ our real supreme court, the halving of Ireland's QMV vote, Article 48 may mean the end of EU referenda, and concerns about mass-migration from the new member states.

AC

Brilliant article, I'm voting NO because well for lots of reasons. The UK's parliament voting to retain legal infanticide (abortion at 24 weeks) is another recent one I've added to an already very long list. Put simply I don't want any foreigners making laws that will affect the sovereignty and freedom of my country.

Andrew Morrow

Like Mary I was always very pro-Europe and speak French, German and Spanish. I have also worked in Germany before returning to Ireland. However I totally agree with her view and will also be voting No this time round. Our friends in France are delighted that we will be able to vote seeing as Sarko has deprived them of their democratic rights.

Chris

If Sinn Feing are opposed to the Libn Treaty, and Sinn Fein are the political wing of the IRA, I was wondering if Daniel could tell us if the EU has conssidered the possibility of an IRA terrorist campaign being conducted against it's authority by Irish Republicans and sympathisers? Seriously Daniel, has the powers that be in the EU hieracrhy not realised that there is truth in the saying that if you ignore the mistakes made in history, then you are doomed to repeat them?

Austin Barry

Chris, what's left of the provisional IRA is a band of embittered (they lost the war) oldsters more interested in mafia-style criminality to fund their holiday homes in Donegal and Spain or to upgrade their hideous pseudo-mansions in South Armagh than to take arms against a sea of Directives.

Kathleen Scott

I am Irish; a political Republican in the original sense of that word and unable to comprehend the 'playground' abuse of Austin Barry.

I am anti-Sinn Fein and previously pro-Europe BUT I am voting NO for precisely the reasons listed by Mary - erosion of sovereignty, the Charter of Fundamental Rights, the quota, and Article 48.

Mass migration in the face of a turn-down in the Irish economy SHOULD be of major concern to all voters. The hard-working Poles are leaving because there is no work yet, we have significant numbers of Romanians aggressively begging, on the streets and from door to door in residential areas.

The reality is, immigrants make sense to the general populace ONLY when there is plenty of work and surplus money in the system. Unemployed immigrants are a recipe for civil unrest.

antony douglas

Stop this right now,you lot sound like a "Punch"cartoon faction fight come to life,the serious issue is can EU be bounced into showing it's hand in time to influence public opinion ?.

Bolg

A few points of correction/different opinion perhaps:

(a) The Irish Constitution does not necessarily "require" a referendum for all Treaties - one court's interpretation of the Constitution says that we must. There is a strong argument, recently made in the Irish Times, that a referendum is not necessary for Lisbon, but is being held for political reasons.

(b) Does "gombeenism" even roughly translate as sleaze? I have always understood it to mean incompetence or representative of the negative stereotype of Irish idiocy. A gombeen is a stupid person or buffon. I could be wrong about this, and I see in Google searches that some people say it means a loan shark (a definition I've never heard). But I've never heard it used in the sleaze context (can't find the UK court decision in Reynolds v. Sunday Times that discusses it, the HoL doesn't).

(c) Was the rule that State funds can't be used to support one side of a referendum repealed? Wasn't that requirement due to a constitutional case, in which case a referendum is necessary? I don't remember this change you mention. The Referendum Commission is impartial and the political parties do their own bit. I think it is ridiculous, mind you, that we used to get these Referendum Commission leaflets saying "on the one hand" and "on the other", rather than just providing the information.

I could be wrong in relation to some of these points, but I would be interested in clarification.

BTW, I love your "Pro-Treaty Forces" reference, and am surprised that no one has drawn any analogies (even jokingly) between Lisbon and previous Irish treaty controversies. Perhaps we just instinctively divide down the middle on Treaties negotiated with external peoples?

Elfed Vaughan Roberts

I cannot see why commentators on the upcoming referendum in Ireland cannot predict the eventual outcome.

If the return, let us say, is 51% in favour and 49% against the treaty then the people will have spoken and the treaty will come into force and no further referendums will be necessary.

If, however, the outcome is say 51% against and 49% in favour then the powers in the European Union will offer a few goodies to Ireland and insist on another referendum and another and then another until the vote is positive.

Then the peoplewill have decided to endorse the treaty and no further referedums will be necessary. Quod erat demonstandum.

Hans Henrik Hansen

Appeal from abroad:
A Danish referendum was scheduled as part of 'the Nice Treaty' ratification process, but was suspended after the French and the Dutch NO-votes! There are strong indications that the Danish outcome would have been a NO, as well. In order to circumvent this 'calamity' the Danish government ruled that the Lisbon Treaty does not infringe upon Danish sovereignty - in spite of the fact that the substance of the two documents ('Nice' <-> 'Lisbon') are identical. This undemocratic - and most likely unconstitutional - act has frustrated and infuriated many Danes. Among Europeans the Danes are far from alone in their dismay with this 'new order' which will further undermine the authority of our democratically elected parliaments and transfer it to the faceless and closed EU bureaucracy.
In consequence of this deplorable situation we fellow-Europeans are now turning to the Irish voters, encouraging them to send a resounding 'NO' to Brussels next Thursday!
I recommend reading this article with specific focus on Ireland, written by the Danish MEP, Jens Peter Bonde:
http://www.bonde.com/index.php/bonde_uk/article/C221/
Since 1979 he has represented Denmark in the European Parliament, and he has acquired an admirable insight into all EU perspectives.

PS Apologies for my primitive English: I'm 'only' a Dane! :)

Sam

Great article. One fault - Dan Hannan's forecast of the decision. It WILL be "No!"

Eats Wombats

This was a good article. There's some good knockabout debate on the issue over on www.order-order.com, with some fine rhetoric from "Phoenix Park".

One or two points need stating here: first, there's considerable British begrudgery over Ireland's prosperity and fairly constant suggestions that it is entirely down to EU handounts. This is simply not the case. Ireland has far outperformed Portugal, Greece and others who also received EU funds. The facts and the analyses are readily available, here e.g., http://workforall.net/EN_Tax_policy_for_growth_and_jobs.html, ; there are many others.

Similiarly, there are regular British sneers over Ireland's rejection of the Nice treaty first time around and its subsequent acceptance, as if this was something to be ashamed of. On the contrary. First, referenda are not at all unusual in Ireland and there have been repeated referenda on some issues (e.g. on divorce), at intervals, reflecting changing attitudes and demography. The idea of Ireland's bottom being spanked and it being told to get the right answer is patronising nonsense. The reverse is true. The Irish people required and obtained assurances on important matters of principle and they had a greater say in those than the British people have ever had.

Ireland needs no lessons in democracy from the UK.

Meanwhile, the quality of life gap between Ireland and the UK widens annually--check The Economist's annual survey.