Is the Catholic Church sliding towards civil war?

Alan Johnson

A tad dramatic, perhaps? Still, the smells and bells brigade are inclined to be "colourful" and more interested in outer displays than inner charity. Some people love nothing more than a jolly good show.
They tend to be the kind of traditionalists who demand uniformity in organisations, just so long as it is uniformity with their ideas.
Alan

Anna

How hard it is to satisfy all people! I am not a Roman Catholic, but have been interested in your writings on this and my take is diametrically opposed to that of commenter Alan Johnson.

It seems to me to demonstrate a modern pattern: a "liberal" elite denying choice to those whom they consider to be their ignorant inferiors.

Eric Hester

This is an important article and it is no exaggeration to talk about Civil War. On another aspect, one Bishop, the Bishop of Lancaster, produced a brilliant document, aimed at putting right so much that is wrong with Catholic Schools. This document has been endorsed by three Vatican Congregations, something unprecedented, but you will not find it even mentioned on the website of the Catholic Education Service, the official body of the national Bishops' Conference and the Chairman of that body, the Archbishop of Birmingham, Vincent Niohols, refuses to do anything about it.

Frank

As a Church of England athiest, I do hope so.

Stephen Patten

Alan, most of those described as 'traditionalists' (that I know) tend to be primarily concerned with the salvation of their soul and, because the two are inextricably connected, the souls of others. Surely this is the greatest form of charity?

Kevin

Why does Cardinal Hoyos fear "creating" division? What is the mark of unity?

Paul Waller

Ooooh! Scratch your eyes out.

Nicolas Ollivant

These bishops are, of course, not "liberal" in any normally accepted sense of the word. They are intolerant of diversity and fearful of change. They use every means to coerce priests under their jurisdiction into a banal conformity to their own practices. If they were indeed liberal they would welcome the fact that the faithful are being offered a greater choice in the from of worship. These bishops should reflect on what the word prejudice means and ask themselves why the so-called traditioanlist Masses are so well attended.

Martin Ward

"the new young defenders of the recently reinstated Latin Mass" - are usually gay and often converts. The whole thing is turning into a bloody circus.

Deeply Lapsed Catholic

Who cares? Why bother with any of these people? The whole lot of them form a great reason to go off on one's own way.

Clare Coffey

Congratulations to Damian for championing the Tridentine Rite in Britain.
Would like to point out that not all the young people who like to attend the Tridentine Rite are gay. I like attending this rite of Mass and I am not gay.
Damian now must turn his attention to what is being taught in Catholic schools. I am under 40 and I was told in the 6th Form by a Catholic teacher that there is no such things as angels and that hell is here on earth.

Steven Jonson

Whatever anyone says it is all very GAY.

laurie macdonell-sanchez

Leftism, NOT liberalism, has been allowed to flourish in a Church that has always been a prime target of the Left, ever since the Bolshies began their blood-letting & political adventurism. Why? Communism never had a greater enemy than the Catholic Church. Solution? Infiltrate & undermine. One especially fertile result was the superficially noble but basically wrong-headed Vatican II & its aftermath of tens of millions of disaffected Roman Catholics on several continents; the "pedophile" debacle in the US (a misnomer--the great majority of offending clergy are gays w/weak vocations & their victims pre- or pubescent boys [although there are gay priests w/strong vocations & self control]); the severe decline in the quality & availability of Catholic school education (MANY non-Catholics benefited from it w/o being required to sit in on the religious education); the denial of public funding for nonprofit Catholic hospitals and other social welfare institutions. What a nasty bumper crop (but precisely the one the Left worked so hard & for so long to produce) the "brave new" RC-PC crowd has provided to not just Catholics, but society at large anywhere in the "civilized" world, & especially in countries in the throes of every kind of turmoil.

Omadhaun

What a lot of noise about NOTHING! I grew up in the Latin Rite- could read some Latin- and- in any event- had a missal to translate on the spot.For all practical purposes NOONE in the Church could understand the biblical readings in Latin.IN fact, it was quite acceptable for the people who were unable to deal with LAtin to kneel in the pew "telling" their rosary beads. When Vatican II cam on the scene- the Latin was essentially thrown out and the faithful were introduced to the Bible in good English. No more mumbling by the cleric with his back to the congregation. Now- this use of English - or French or whatever was your preference- did not guarantee that the sermon would be either coherent or inspiring not did it guarantee that the liturgical music would elevate ones soul.
The attraction of many young people to the Latin mass is founded upon a misplaced belief that the Latin Mass was somehow holier because it was old [actually only 16th century]. This is ludicrous. Encouraging a return to that obscurantism is sheer folly. Latin did NOT communicate the sacred- in fact- it probably hindered the understanding of the sacred by the congregation. Inasmuch as there are not 50 people in the world who actually can communicate in Latin- one can hope that this silliness will disappear in the near future.

Oscar LeWilde

I am delighted to know that, whist my struggle to affirm, through a civil partnership ceremony in Westminster Cathedral, my relationship with my pet gerbil, it may yet occur some day, and delightfully,in the most brightly coloured garments.

Kevin

Pax tecum, Omadhaune.

"whatever was your preference" is not the mark of unity that I was hoping for.

But tell me, does anyone "communicate" in ICEL English? Who says, "Peace be with you", in the street? Who says, "And also with you"?

What would be left in the world if everything had to be done in the language and posture of everyday communication? No Shakespeare plays, no poetry, no written English. Just more slang, and everyone sitting down in casual dress (probably pyjamas and slippers).

Profane night-club goers are more demanding in their ritual than the "sacred" Novus Ordo. (I use the Latin here because “New Order” would mean something different to night-club goers.)

Kevin

P.S., Omadhaun,

You say that the Latin Mass is "only 16th century". Here is a painting of a Mass in the National Gallery (I am not responsible for the link, etc.):
http://www.nationalgallery.org.uk/cgi-bin/WebObjects.dll/CollectionPublisher.woa/wa/work?workNumber=NG253

The painting has been dated to the late fifteenth century. It bears a remarkable resemblance to the "Tridentine" Rite, and yet it pre-dates the Council of Trent.

So when was the "16th century" Latin Mass introduced?

John Bishop

Deo gratias for the restoration of the 'Mass for all time.'The disaster which has overtaken the Church over the last forty years can be laid firmly at the door of the ill
conceived and protestantised'novus ordo missae.'We can now look forward to the great spiritual benefits of the true Mass for which, over the centuries,saints were martyred and by which so many of all faiths and none were converted.At last a re-statement of the eternal truths concerning the body and blood soul and divinity of Christ in this perilous age of atheism and relativism.The real Mass will save us.

conceived 'novus ordo misse.'Constructed to protestantise the Church it ahs been a monumental falure.

Barry Eastern

Mind your bums.

Bob Smith

For those interested more information on the whole question of Traditional Catholicism and the Latin Mass is available online at:
http://www.catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/index.htm

ariadne

"the new young defenders of the recently reinstated Latin Mass" - are usually gay and often converts. The whole thing is turning into a bloody circus."
Sir, you are a twit.

Neil Stacey

How do I just know that ariadne is a man. Case closed .

dennis hayes

the pope. what a guy, eh?

Wolfgang Somary

Anglicans have King James, Orthodox Russians old Slavonic, Greek Orthodox Hellenistic Greek, Jews have Hebrew, Muslims classical Arabic, Hindus Sanskrit and Buddhists Pali. Only Roman Catholics have ecclesiastical commissions that dumb down the language every ten years. Mass is poetry, not journalism.

Lottie, Divinity student.

I have a number of thoughts on this article, it was somewhat tought provoking! firstly the fact that there is indeed a dispute of this calibre going on in the church was concerning - i am more inclined to propose that both the Old and new rite masses be available to the faithfull since the body of Christ is made up of many members (each with different tastes, etc)

Am i succombing to the trademark 'relativism' of post-modern thought in proposing this attitude, no, i believe both rites to be equally valid (having both been approved by the Magisterum of the church) and to be of incredible depth theologically for differnt reasons. to give you an example the Tridentine mass maintains the sense of the numinous and transcentdent qualities of God whereas the new rite allows one to both be sat at the last supper, be stood at the foot of the cross and be in heaven all at the same time- thus emphasizing the omnipresent and eternal nature of God and man's participation in the trinitarian life of God- there are many many more riches that i could also describe but in this limited account of which i shall spare you!

The Holy Father is doing alot of good in the church, i am thankfull that i as both a Divinity student and Catholic have the opportunity to indulge in both rites. I do not believe that 'anything goes' for traditionl Catholic values should be upheld at all times- but in this instance i would be inclined to draw the line at a compromise providing the sacraments and church doctrine is honoured and preserved.

Spectre

Funny, I'm a regular attendee at Westminster Cathedral and an occasional attendee at the TLM. To call Westminster Cathedral's usual liturgy "watered down" indicates one of three things: either the author is ignorant, or he is deliberately misrepresenting the truth, or he is barking mad.

As for these rumours of Pope Benedict being cross, indeed, this isn't the first time I have seen this talked about. It's just invariably Damian Thompson doing the talking (he hates rumour mongering don't you know, but he just has to share this and that little tidbit).

Civil war, well, if a tiny but incredibly noisy faction of the traditionalist wing versus everyone else counts as a war, perhaps.

On the military analogy: the Cardinal Archbishop of Westminster and primate of England in his own cathedral is hardly an inferior officer to a curial cardinal.

Anna: "I am not a Roman Catholic"... so why should your opinions be of the slightest interest to those of us who are?

John Wilson

Readable stuff but please be careful not to imply that those who are sceptical and worried about the Tridentine Mass necessarily have any sympathy with they quite awful folk Masses with guitars, tambourines and texts which make one cringe. These accretions are not part of the essence of the reformed Pauline Mass. As the principal liturgy at Westminster Cathedral on any Sunday shows, beauty, a sense of awe and music making of the highest quality are perfectly compatible with the post-Vatican II liturgy. It is certainly not because of plainchant or vestments that I, and many, many other Catholics find the return to the Tridentine Mass problematic and worrying.